Male privilege.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

I just wanted to open a thread about the disadvantages women and children face because of Male Privilege.

The following sentiments echo my personal views.
"Privilege, at its core, is the advantages that people benefit from based solely on their social status. It is a status that is conferred by society to certain groups, not seized by individuals, which is why it can be difficult sometimes to see one’s own privilege."

"Privilege is: About how society accommodates you. It’s about advantages you have that you think are normal. It’s about you being normal, and others being the deviation from normal."
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/11/faq-what-is-male-privilege/ (http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/11/faq-what-is-male-privilege/)

Men are the norm, women are the deviation of normal.

I feel sad when I see women automatically privileging men.

Women (and children) make up the majority of the worlds poor. They are far more often to be left holding the baby. Women recieve less pay for the same job, Women are more likely to be assualted or sexually assaulted. the list goes on.

Where do you see male privilege?

[FullMoon]

..................... I get paid the EXACT same as my male counterparts. I know many men who have been assaulted. I think this topic has been brought up too much on bubhub over the past few days and its dried up. Nothing is ever good enough.

[Mrs Nietzsche]

Men are the norm, women are the deviation of normal


This is true.

The world is run for and for the most part, by, people who do not get pregnant, breastfeed or take care of kids, who have someone else aroudn to take care of all their errands, housework, house managing, and etc.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

..................... I get paid the EXACT same as my male counterparts. I know many men who have been assaulted. I think this topic has been brought up too much on bubhub over the past few days and its dried up. Nothing is ever good enough.
:confused: Even if you do get paid the same as your male counterparts. There is a wage gap, it exists.

Yes many men have been assaulted and stats show men are more likely to assault men. However women are far more likely to be assaulted overall.

Equality would be good enough for me.:)

[BigRedV]

They have a penis...obviously :laughing:

Seriously, in the workplace.

In my profession, 90% (probably more) are female. In my whole school, there are only 2 male teaching staff and they are "the bosses" or the 2 most highest paid in the school. The majority of schools have male principals despite being a predominantly female profession.

[Deserama]

Well I really don't know about that. Women have way more choices opened up for them now. I they don't have to stay home barefoot and pregnant anymore.

If they have children, they don't have to be the SAHM anymore. As far as I know women do get paid the same in most jobs and I'd like to know which jobs that they don't, I don't know any...what are they? In which industry?

Sure men rule the world, but it's changing. Women who want to make it, can make it. It's completly up to them. If I wanted to be in politics, I could have, but I don't want to. How many women actually want to? Compared to men who want to? Is the desire for politics the same for men and women?

[3bubsplus1]

..................... I get paid the EXACT same as my male counterparts. I know many men who have been assaulted. I think this topic has been brought up too much on bubhub over the past few days and its dried up. Nothing is ever good enough.

:yelclap::yelclap:

[BigRedV]

Anyone heard of boys' clubs or the glass ceiling :detective:

[BigRedV]

For those who think the gender wage gap does not exist...

This paragraph:

THE Federal Government is considering creating a new body to tackle the long-standing gender pay gap which results in women earning less than men doing comparable jobs.

Comes from here:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/gender-wage-gap-under-review/2008/06/09/1212863545949.html

[Pina Colada]

..................... I get paid the EXACT same as my male counterparts. I know many men who have been assaulted. I think this topic has been brought up too much on bubhub over the past few days and its dried up. Nothing is ever good enough.

:yes::yes::yes:

[Jakois]

..................... I get paid the EXACT same as my male counterparts. I know many men who have been assaulted. I think this topic has been brought up too much on bubhub over the past few days and its dried up. Nothing is ever good enough.

Thats intersesting. Do you mind me asking what field you are in?

I work within the Community/Human Services Sector (Govt Position) so get the same as my male counterparts.

DP on the other hand is in an Executive Postition and his Salary is roughly 10K MORE than his female counterparts.

There is a massive "Boys Club" Attitude whithin his industry and it is something that he stuggles with.

I guess it depends on the feild you specialise in.

[Deserama]

Any other fields?

I know the funeral industry was the same for male and female..as is the security industry. Not sure about the police...will ask dh when he wakes up (worked last night).

[BigRedV]

This article is a bit old but interesting reading...it states:

Latest figures from the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) released yesterday showed women on full-time wages were paid on average less than men across all industries examined.

From this website:

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25653630-953,00.html

It also says this:

The average full-time female teacher received $1104.50 before tax a week in May 2006 - 8 per cent less than their male colleagues - with the gap blowing out to 15 per cent in August last year.
Women working in finance and insurance received about 28 per cent less than men last year, despite the gap being 24 per cent two years before.
The pay gap in the arts and recreation industries grew from 14 per cent to nearly 20 per cent in the same period.
In healthcare and community services, the gap rose from 26 per cent to 27.5 per cent.
Hospitality had the smallest pay gap, reaching 3.7 per cent last year.

[Looshkin]

They have a penis...obviously :laughing:

Seriously, in the workplace.

In my profession, 90% (probably more) are female. In my whole school, there are only 2 male teaching staff and they are "the bosses" or the 2 most highest paid in the school. The majority of schools have male principals despite being a predominantly female profession.

Absolutely. As a society we automatically promote men, defend men, even go so far as to constantly argue how equal things are - when they're so obviously not.. why?
Why would you yell and scream how good women have got it -when this year women have to work 3 extra months from end of financial year to earn the same as the "equal" man.

Does the truth make us so uncomfortable that we try to cover it up and defend our societies attitude towards privileging men, because if we tell ourselves it doesn't exist, we hope it wont?

This is not an attack on men, yet some people view it as so, and jump to defend 'mens rights' which is hilarous because in our society they are so far a given we have posts like below as a knee jerk reaction, rather than thoughtfully considering why our society is the way it is.. and if.. maybe.. it would be better for both men and women to remove these damaging stereotypes and subconscious ideals that men are usually the bosses, the financially responsible..

I know for a fact, if a thread started discussing why it is unfair that women will be at disadvantage from lack of super as a direct decision of wanting to stay at home with her children, there would be posters saying "what's unfair, is the man has to then fund that womans retirement" no consideration of that womans independence, just how she is putting the man out :gloomy: I would bet on it.

Things are so severely twisted.. I find it quite depressing at times, but motivating at others.

You can thank those you wish to silence, those you wish to mock as man haters, those you put wasted energy trying to "prove wrong" instead of putting your energy into making things better for women everywhere ((who knows what your daughter will want to do) when we win more rights and a closer intrinsic equality for your own daughters and their daughters.

I am constantly shocked at the hatred towards women attempting to change this subconscious privileged gender based stereotyping..



..................... I get paid the EXACT same as my male counterparts. I know many men who have been assaulted. I think this topic has been brought up too much on bubhub over the past few days and its dried up. Nothing is ever good enough.

Are you aware how much your post is a reflection of the attitude described in the OP?

I thought you were being ironic.
:(

[MsMummy]

:laughing: Equal pay. That was a good laugh. It's a tough ask once you have kids.

the comment in the OP about "it's how society accommodates you" rings true. Women with children are not accommodated well in the workforce.

If anybody thinks that all is equal in the workforce, come into a law firm. The majority of partners are men. Once you have a child, you feel like you've suddenly acquired a disability as it's hard to get good billings when you can't work nights or weekends, and when you're stopping to express breastmilk 3 times a day, and it's hard to get out and market and network because you have children. It's also hard for your brain to function when you're waking up several times a night to feed a baby.

The obligations of raising children still fall primarily on women, hence the pay gap.

[Jakois]

Any other fields?

I know the funeral industry was the same for male and female..as is the security industry. Not sure about the police...will ask dh when he wakes up (worked last night).

Des, in alot Of High Paying Corporate Proffessions there is a huge Wage Difference.

Also, women seem to have to work alot harder to Prove their abilities even though they hold the same experience/qualifications as their male counterparts.

I agree with you in that in some areas things are changing, but there is some ways to go:).

I dont think that the disadvantage is a severe as it was say 20 years ago, but there is still disadvantage there.

Until, there is a more family/woman friendly approach than there will always be inequality.

[~Bec~]

Well I am currently working in a role that because I am female I am being given remedial tasks. This is not the first time this has happened to me. How do I know it's because I'm female? Because my male counterparts are not given the same remedial tasks. I also have a stack load more experience in the role than what they do.

I have also worked for the police. Whilst I have lots of respect for the police I found that too to be a very sexist culture.

Corporate culture is set up to advantage those that can/do work long hours. In my experience you need to put lots of hours in to get ahead which is inherently sexist as it is usually woman who puts family first (eg work part time to be with children, has to leave office at x o'clock to pick up the kids etc) so cannot work all hours at the whim of the employer. I will never 'get ahead' at work as I refuse to work for free whilst having even less time with my son.

[Deserama]

Des, in alot Of High Paying Corporate Proffessions there is a huge Wage Difference.

Also, women seem to have to work alot harder to Prove their abilities even though they hold the same experience/qualifications as their male counterparts.

I agree with you in that in some areas things are changing, but there is some ways to go:).

I dont think that the disadvantage is a severe as it was say 20 years ago, but there is still disadvantage there.

Until, there is a more family/woman friendly approach than there will always be inequality.

I can see your point. But isn't it good enough that we've come this far in 20 years and that we are constantly on the move for equality? Won't it just get better over time, as more and more women get in there and rally for equal pay in their particular industries?

Also with those statistics are they taking into account levels? What I mean is, in say, my ex's job, he's in the computer tech industry and he gets paid according to his level. So first year would be X...second year would be Y and so fourth. So if you get a male and female working the SAME job, but one happens to be on level 5 and the other level 4 then their pay would not be equal. Would those variations show up on statistics??

[Phyllis Stein]

Male privilege (like white privilege, heterosexual or able-bodied privilege) operates at a mostly invisible level, which is why many who are accused of sexism (racism, homophobia, ableism) are genuinely confused at the criticism. Yet it is a very real phenomena.

Men do not generally live in fear of rape and murder on the basis of their sex, and that is privilege. Women change everything from their behaviour to their values to their thinking based on this internalised fear.

Men take it for granted that someone else will take care of their domestic responsibilities, leaving them free to pursue a career. Women are socialised from birth to be carers and nurturers of men and children. Males are privileged.

Men feel entitled to sex from women, women feel obligated to have sex with men. Male privilege.

Men can be presented as numerous different 'characters' in cultural works, women are confined by stereotypical roles. Male privilege.

Women are socialised to be caretakers of men, both physically and emotionally. Women are conditioned to place men's needs above their own, both men and women are conditioned to accept this as a normal state of affairs. Male privilege.

I could name virtually any sphere of life and show that males are invisibly privileged within it.

But fish can't see water.

[Looshkin]

You can't rally for equal pay in some industries.

It is entirely individually negotiated.

What we can discuss openly, is the fact this huge gap does exist.. and attempt to change the mindset which is the reason essentially that the gap exists.

Defending and excusing that the gap exists is part of the reason it is still socially acceptable to exist. I feel the "isn't it good enough' silencing technique is even bigger part as to why it silently exists.

Deserama, does arguing that it doesn't exist, in the face of all the evidence that it does exist.. I am unsure of your motivations.. does it make it less uncomfortable, do you reckon? Or do you feel by arguing that it doesn't exist, makes it so , so it's better for women.. because they are actually getting paid equally, the stats where just recorded wrong.. or incomparable etc?

[Deserama]

Male privilege (like white privilege, heterosexual or able-bodied privilege) operates at a mostly invisible level, which is why many who are accused of sexism (racism, homophobia, ableism) are genuinely confused at the criticism. Yet it is a very real phenomena.

Men do not generally live in fear of rape and murder on the basis of their sex, and that is privilege. Women change everything from their behaviour to their values to their thinking based on this internalised fear.

This I can see.


Men take it for granted that someone else will take care of their domestic responsibilities, leaving them free to pursue a career. Women are socialised from birth to be carers and nurturers of men and children. Males are privileged.

Men take it for granted because women allow it though. Some women like being nurturers too.


Men feel entitled to sex from women, women feel obligated to have sex with men. Male privilege.

Yes I can see this one. Not in my current marriage but my previous one this was certainly the case.


Men can be presented as numerous different 'characters' in cultural works, women are confined by stereotypical roles. Male privilege.

What do you mean by this one?


Women are socialised to be caretakers of men, both physically and emotionally. Women are conditioned to place men's needs above their own, both men and women are conditioned to accept this as a normal state of affairs. Male privilege.

It depends...men are conditioned to be leaders and everybody knows that leaders in say an army regiment put's their regiment first before themselves. My dh is like this at home. We come first...he comes last, he views this as his responsibility. I grew up never wanting to have the 'burnt chop syndrome' so I don't.

[PeppaH]

Men get no special treatment or privlileges where Im living. I get treated the same, paid the same, respected the same. I can do just as much as any guy (just) I dont get looked down apon because Im physically weaker. The men I know can do just as much as a women can and get no special respect for doing so.

Im so sick of the men verus women crap.

[BigRedV]

You can't rally for equal pay in some industries.

It is entirely individually negotiated.



:iagree:

Men are "generally" better negotiators, so their pay would be higher especially with John Howard's "workplace agreements" :rolleyes:

When Howard brought in new industrial relations laws, a representative from the teachers' federation came out and we all had to sign over to change our union fees as being direct debited, rather than automatically taken out of our pay which was visible on our payslip as Howard was trying to get rid of the unions which would have been the end of collective bargaining :eek:

In my job, YES, I am paid as equal to any male but there is no denying the glass ceiling in the education department.

[Deserama]

You can't rally for equal pay in some industries.

It is entirely individually negotiated.

What we can discuss openly, is the fact this huge gap does exist.. and attempt to change the mindset which is the reason essentially that the gap exists.

Defending and excusing that the gap exists is part of the reason it is still socially acceptable to exist. I feel the "isn't it good enough' silencing technique is even bigger part as to why it silently exists.

Deserama, does arguing that it doesn't exist, in the face of all the evidence that it does exist.. I am unsure of your motivations.. does it make it less uncomfortable, do you reckon? Or do you feel by arguing that it doesn't exist, makes it so , so it's better for women.. because they are actually getting paid equally, the stats where just recorded wrong.. or incomparable etc?

I'm a realist. I want to make sure the facts are straight before I start jumping up and down about something. I'd hate to agree with something, only to find out there was a flaw and then have egg on my face...wouldn't you?

[happyluvy]

Men get no special treatment or privlileges where Im living. I get treated the same, paid the same, respected the same. I can do just as much as any guy (just) I dont get looked down apon because Im physically weaker. The men I know can do just as much as a women can and get no special respect for doing so.

Im so sick of the men verus women crap.

:iagree: same!
(i was reading thru this thread thinking i was the only one who felt this way :) but you just worded it perfectly, fanx!)

[PeppaH]

Male privilege (like white privilege, heterosexual or able-bodied privilege) operates at a mostly invisible level, which is why many who are accused of sexism (racism, homophobia, ableism) are genuinely confused at the criticism. Yet it is a very real phenomena.

Men do not generally live in fear of rape and murder on the basis of their sex, and that is privilege. Women change everything from their behaviour to their values to their thinking based on this internalised fear.

Men take it for granted that someone else will take care of their domestic responsibilities, leaving them free to pursue a career. Women are socialised from birth to be carers and nurturers of men and children. Males are privileged.

Men feel entitled to sex from women, women feel obligated to have sex with men. Male privilege.

Men can be presented as numerous different 'characters' in cultural works, women are confined by stereotypical roles. Male privilege.

Women are socialised to be caretakers of men, both physically and emotionally. Women are conditioned to place men's needs above their own, both men and women are conditioned to accept this as a normal state of affairs. Male privilege.

I could name virtually any sphere of life and show that males are invisibly privileged within it.

But fish can't see water.

Wow that kinda sucks that you think that way. No way in hell do ANY of the men I know in my life expect any of that. Men are equal and do their fair share of house work.

As to being afraid of being raped!? I dont know about many other females but I dont walk around in fear someone might try to rape me or murder me for that. Living my life in fear and 'under' a guy is kinda pathetic and if people do this, they need to get a life :barf:

[Mrs Nietzsche]

How generous of them not to look down on you for being physically weaker.

I think people perhaps don't understand how the wage gap arises.

It's not like there is one rate of pay for men and another for women.

But women end up being paid less because they ask for pay raises less. Because the pay rises go to the people who can work late. Because it has been demonstrated repeatedly that women work efficiently and leave at 5, men hang around the water cooler and leave at 7 . Because women take time off to have children and dont' catch up. Because women are less reliablebecause they have days off to look after kids/take kids to appts/whatever. Bceause women make phone calls about organising their kids/families lives.

Because women have jobs not careers, and their jobs take second priority to their husband's job, their kid's lives, their family generally. Women are seen as not being as dedicated, so they don't get the pay raise.

And most importantly, women don't get pay raises because they don't think they deserve them. They put up with being mucked around with overtime, maternity leave, etc. They don't go in every 6 months and demand a pay raise. Women are trained to be compliant, especially with their (mostly male) bosses. Women are grateful to have a job, to even get maternity leave, or a day off to look after thier kids. God forbid they ask for a raise!

[PeppaH]

How generous of them not to look down on you for being physically weaker.

I think people perhaps don't understand how the wage gap arises.

It's not like there is one rate of pay for men and another for women.

But women end up being paid less because they ask for pay raises less. Because the pay rises go to the people who can work late. Because it has been demonstrated repeatedly that women work efficiently and leave at 5, men hang around the water cooler and leave at 7 . Because women take time off to have children and dont' catch up. Because women are less reliablebecause they have days off to look after kids/take kids to appts/whatever. Bceause women make phone calls about organising their kids/families lives.

Because women have jobs not careers, and their jobs take second priority to their husband's job, their kid's lives, their family generally. Women are seen as not being as dedicated, so they don't get the pay raise.

So because a man works later, accually ASKS for pay rises, wants to make a career out of a job, doesnt take time off to have children.....They shoudlnt get paid more? See that seems pretty silly because how you put that means a man IS working harder then the female and still shouldnt get paid more???

You think a female shouldnt have to do all those things because she can have children and should still have the privilege of being paid more/the same to a man who does twice as much?:confused:

[Phyllis Stein]

Men take it for granted because women allow it though. Some women like being nurturers too.

It's not that some women and men like those roles, it's that we're strongly conditioned to act in those ways regardless of individual preference. Some men might like to be nurturers but can't because it's unmanly or emasculating, etc.



What do you mean by this one?


Culture (movies, music etc) gives us ways to perceive and interpret ourselves and the world around us. Women are given far fewer 'roles' in which to see themselves.

I have to go now but I will try and explain a bit better later.

[Looshkin]

Actually peppaH, 1 in 3 women will be raped or sexually abused in their lifes.

So while I don't "live my life in fear" I am very acutely aware of this fact.

[PeppaH]

Actually peppaH, 1 in 3 women will be raped or sexually abused in their lifes.

So while I don't "live my life in fear" I am very acutely aware of this fact.

Yeah but what man would come forward to say he was raped by a women. So it snot like women get raped more, men are just to ashamed to come forward. Thats also been proven

[Deserama]

How generous of them not to look down on you for being physically weaker.

I think people perhaps don't understand how the wage gap arises.

It's not like there is one rate of pay for men and another for women.

But women end up being paid less because they ask for pay raises less. Because the pay rises go to the people who can work late. Because it has been demonstrated repeatedly that women work efficiently and leave at 5, men hang around the water cooler and leave at 7 . Because women take time off to have children and dont' catch up. Because women are less reliablebecause they have days off to look after kids/take kids to appts/whatever. Bceause women make phone calls about organising their kids/families lives.

Because women have jobs not careers, and their jobs take second priority to their husband's job, their kid's lives, their family generally. Women are seen as not being as dedicated, so they don't get the pay raise.

But wouldn't it be their choice though? What about women who don't ever want kids and who do stay late and who don't take time off for the kids because they don't have any etc?? Do they get pay rises?

Could it be that people get pay rises due to the work perfomance? How reliable they are (male or female)?

Yes women take time off work to have kids, but that's their choice. Why should a man have to be paid the same as a women who spent a year off work? How would you feel if you were working and some bloke decided to take a year off to travel...while you were still there day after day...then he comes back and gets the same pay rise as you? Would that be fair you think?

[Mrs Nietzsche]

Just for anyone else who is reading -

Women actually work more efficiently than men. They work hard, then leave to look after kids.

However, the work culture in most environments means that socialising, spending time talking over the printer, and being seen at your desk for long hours are all activities that tend to be perceived as dedication/ loyalty/ etc.

Men can do those things, women can't. Or not in the same way - once they have kids.

[~Bec~]

In my 20 years of working in the corporate world, I can promise you that there is not only a glass ceiling, there are glass walls too.
I don't really have the time to discuss at length - I'm supposed to be working ;)

[Mrs Nietzsche]

Deserma - your stance is very much informed by the norm of the male.

Travel is not the same as having a baby. Having a baby is not some recreational choice people make that interferes with the real business of capitalist production.

Having a baby is the real business of the world.

Why on earth should people be penalised for one of our most fundamentally essential functions - havnig children?

Once you stop seeing having children as some luxury people make a choice to do that business should not have to accomodate, and see having children as a *fundamental* part of being a human being, you see it differently.

This is very much an example of the male sex being seen as the norm.


And btw no - as I posted after you - pay raises don't come with performance/dedication etc - they come with perception of being a team player, loyalty, and so on.

[happyluvy]

Women are trained to be compliant, especially with their (mostly male) bosses....

This above line really just stuck out to me - i can see how the above comment may work.. maybe because i was not 'trained to be compliant' i dont feel this way... ?

I was brought up in a family with three sisters, and three brothers. Dad worked his back side off to support us, mum most of the time was a SAHM, but worked part time when needed for financial reasons. I was raised to be an independant, confident PERSON who could do acheive i wanted - same as with my brothers. During my study and spesh working life i have worked my way to the top and really dont remember paying any attention to weather that coworker going for that same position was a make or female.

:wave:

[Deserama]

Deserma - your stance is very much informed by the norm of the male.

Travel is not the same as having a baby. Having a baby is not some recreational choice people make that interferes with the real business of capitalist production.

Having a baby is the real business of the world.

Why on earth should people be penalised for one of our most fundamentally essential functions - havnig children?

Once you stop seeing having children as some luxury people make a choice to do that business should not have to accomodate, and see having children as a *fundamental* part of being a human being, you see it differently.

This is very much an example of the male sex being seen as the norm.


And btw no - as I posted after you - pay raises don't come with performance/dedication etc - they come with perception of being a team player, loyalty, and so on.

I don't even know if I have a stance LOL I'm just trying to get the facts. I'm trying to weed out the variables.

I know what your're saying about childbearing being a fundamental part...but it's also a decision to take on that fundamental part. Some women simply don't. But ok, you're asking why should women be penalised for having babies?

Well they shouldn't but I don't think that ANYONE who has take time off work for whatever reasons, should get the same benefits as those who don't. Be it recreation or fundamental. Fact is...whoever it is...male or female aren't there....they are not present at work...so whoever it is...male or female...should not be given pay rises at the same rate as those who were present at work day in and day out during that same period.

[naiwen]

Yes it is there, 5 years ago I would have laughed if you had suggested it but I am well and truely convinced now.

DH works in a traditionally male dominated industry, he works hard and just got a payrise to reward good performance (yay), but I do wonder if he hadnt't been able to be in the office 50 hours a week (if he had childcare commitments) and had not been invited to play golf with the boss and his mates and go out for drinks with him whether the boss would have still been keen to reward him.

Many working mothers are simply unable to put in 50 hours and then socialise after work as well.

I work in a industry made up of 99% women, it is grossly underpaid and the work is very hard but rewarding, I can't get a payrise because the working mothers i support can't get a payrise because they work in undervalued caring professions also, and on it goes.

Oh and my counsellor from years back told me at least 95% of rapes or sexual assaults are perpetrated on women by men.

I have come the sad conclusion that most women will suffer childhood sexual abuse or rape or sexual assault (other than rape) or sexual harrasment at some point in their lives. Most likely between 12 and 25 years but not always.

I hope I am wrong though.

[RoarsomeMum]

Yeah but what man would come forward to say he was raped by a women. So it snot like women get raped more, men are just to ashamed to come forward. Thats also been proven


It's been "Proven" as you say that BOTH genders have a pretty high "failure to report" percentage. I am sure that the rate of male rape is higher than statics represent, as is the rate of female rape. AND it is Actually harder (according to that stuff that has been "proven" for men to come forward and admit they have been raped by another Man.. - even WITH taking into account the gross amount of under reporting, the majority of sex crimes are committed by Men.)

[Mrs Nietzsche]

if you are going to argue that people should be penalised for having time off work for fulfilling a biological function, then why not have timed toilet breaks (to be deducted from pay), no sick leave, etc

[Mrs Nietzsche]

Deserema what I'm aslo trying to explain is that female productivity is as high or higher than male productivity.

The problem is different attitudes to work, and that one attitude is rewarded and the other taken advantage of.

This is particularly evident in law firms (and might be everywhere else too).

Women tend to be conscientious lawyers who research and back things up, work long hours in their office.

Men tend to be flashier, to have a more 'bullynig' style of lawyering, to expect other people to do their research, and so on. They hang out in the corridors, chatting and posing in dominant poses, making long billed calls shooting the breeze to clients, etc.

It's this second type of work style that is understood and rewarded.

[Jakois]

In my 20 years of working in the corporate world, I can promise you that there is not only a glass ceiling, there are glass walls too.
I don't really have the time to discuss at length - I'm supposed to be working ;)

I know exactly what you mean:yes:.

[Deserama]

Deserema what I'm aslo trying to explain is that female productivity is as high or higher than male productivity.

The problem is different attitudes to work, and that one attitude is rewarded and the other taken advantage of.

This is particularly evident in law firms (and might be everywhere else too).

Women tend to be conscientious lawyers who research and back things up, work long hours in their office.

Men tend to be flashier, to have a more 'bullynig' style of lawyering, to expect other people to do their research, and so on. They hang out in the corridors, chatting and posing in dominant poses, making long billed calls shooting the breeze to clients, etc.

It's this second type of work style that is understood and rewarded.

How do we know this for sure though? Is it true for every man and women...or some. And the men who hang out with the bosses for pay rises? What about women who use their sexuality or pay rises? I mean they are there....both sexes like to brown nose for what they want for different reasons.

[Mrs Nietzsche]

We know it for sure because it's very well researched.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/v6544r52h5x27p27/

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1988/02/02-10-88tdc/02-10-88dops-column-02.asp

http://books.google.com.au/books?hl=en&lr=&id=DnEGIDoi_1IC&oi=fnd&pg=PA29&dq=women+work+assertiveness+productivity&ots=lueSoLjeLF&sig=brGVtwnwG8GZg7dkD7gXdVZUx_4#v=onepage&q=&f=false

ANyway you can look it up yourself

[MsMummy]

How do we know this for sure though? Is it true for every man and women...or some. And the men who hang out with the bosses for pay rises? What about women who use their sexuality or pay rises? I mean they are there....both sexes like to brown nose for what they want for different reasons.

I can only speak of my experience.

When I finished uni, I was already working in a law firm, but was offered two other graduate jobs, both in male dominated firms.

Firm 1: Male boss who liked to "party" with his employees. Membership of the social club was "compulsory". I was asked whether I like to drink as that was pretty much compulsory.

Firm 2: All male partners. it was expected that we would socialise with clients - lunches, outings on the firm's yacht etc.

I was also told that men make better litigation lawyers.

Needless to say, I stayed where I am.

And the comment about women using their sexuality is just further evidence of male privilege as that's the lengths that women feel like they may have to go. In saying that, I find that comment extremely offensive - this idea that men work hard but women sleep their way to the top.

[Deserama]

But I didn't say that. I'm talking about both men and women who brown nose their way to the top.

[BigRedV]

check the advantages of being male here:

http://www.starhawk.org/activism/benefits-male.html

[Mrs Nietzsche]

It's just not equivalent Deserama.

Trying to sleep with your boss to get a job is liable to just get you the sack and hostility from colleagues.

Taking part in the firm's golf game, social drinks very Friday night and late night Thai takeaway - that's not seen as brown nosing, it's seen as being a team player.

[Looshkin]

But I didn't say that. I'm talking about both men and women who brown nose their way to the top.

Do you think the the brown nosing be equivalent if the 'top' was majority women?
How do you think things would be different if the top was equally men and women?

[jaq]

Big thread to jump in on at page 5, so I'll just point out one trend (in the thread) that concerns me a little.

Deserama picked up on it ... the essentialism.

"Men are better negotiators".

"Women are more productive".

etc etc and so forth in many posts.

Some men are better negotiators. Many women are NOT good negotiators, and the move to independent contracts was disastrous for those women who prefer collaborative arrangements.

But the fault is in the social assumption that men are better negotiators ... any woman thinking that going into a negotiation is at a disadvantage.

"Women are more productive." Many women are forced to be, of course. They have to complete their tasks in eight hours rather than 10, ergo. But then there are women who are far less productive, and men who pack 15 hours of work into 10. That sort of discussion favours no one when we make sweeping generalisations ...

Focusing on the fact that both men and women are disadvantaged when they choose to focus more on children and less on work gives us all a basis for campaigning more honestly, more credibly, and WITHOUT the sort of essentialist thinking that gives neither men or women credit for being a bit more than their sex organs.

(Male privilege DOES exist, but I am reasonably optimistic that it exists mostly in our thinking. The women's movement has won enough gains that many of the structural barriers have been removed, but now it is the cultural barriers that remain.

Until our assumptions become visible to us, and ALL people see the need to examine those assumptions, male privilege will continue to poke its nose into our lives.)

[Mrs Nietzsche]

Yes Jaq - these are all the statistical averages, ie women as a group are, men as a group are.

Women are more productive because they need to get stuff done and get home to the kids.

We aren't talking about inherent differences, but differences in the ways that genders develop in the workplace, and how one difference is advantaged over another.

[RoarsomeMum]

It's been "Proven" as you say that BOTH genders have a pretty high "failure to report" percentage. I am sure that the rate of male rape is higher than statics represent, as is the rate of female rape. AND it is Actually harder (according to that stuff that has been "proven" for men to come forward and admit they have been raped by another Man.. - even WITH taking into account the gross amount of under reporting, the majority of sex crimes are committed by Men.)

NO-ONE is saying me do not get Raped..

[jaq]

Yes Jaq - these are all the statistical averages, ie women as a group are, men as a group are.

Women are more productive because they need to get stuff done and get home to the kids.

We aren't talking about inherent differences, but differences in the ways that genders develop in the workplace, and how one difference is advantaged over another.

Of course ... I still think though, particularly in a forum like this where people are yet to agree with the most basic points you (we!) are making, that it is important to demonstrate that SOME men, and SOME women don't experience that situation.

If we aren't clear on that, then people will go away thinking "that's not true!"

And even MORE dangerous is when people seem to accept that basic characteristics of women DETERMINE that they will receive less money; or basic characteristics of men make them more violent. This is dangerous, flawed thinking and I don't mean to rebut the statistics, but to underline the danger.

All respect to ALL the warriors out there :)

[Mrs Nietzsche]

This is the research v personal anecdote conundrum. The old chestnut!

I understand what you are saying... but really it does get a little tiresome to specify each time.

But in my own personal anecdote -

having worked in a male dominated field.. it is harder to be assertive/ confident when faced with a table of men. But it's something you must do. You have to become a honourary man really. Or you'll be dismissed into assistant role and asked to check on coffees.

[PeppaH]

This is the research v personal anecdote conundrum. The old chestnut!

I understand what you are saying... but really it does get a little tiresome to specify each time.

But in my own personal anecdote -

having worked in a male dominated field.. it is harder to be assertive/ confident when faced with a table of men. But it's something you must do. You have to become a honourary man really. Or you'll be dismissed into assistant role and asked to check on coffees.

Sorry but only if you have proven internet research will your point of view be accepted. Its that way for me every other time, should it be different for you?

[sweetseven]

When I was growing up, I was taught, and given the impression of, equality of the sexes. However I was shocked to discover this actually wasn't the case, not even in my own family.

I was allowed and encouraged to do all the same things as boys as a small child, but after puberty, suddenly my father was concerned about protecting my femininity, and removed opportunities that would harden me.

Whilst dating, I had the impressions of equality, though upon getting married and living together, it turned out completely different, and I was expected to be responsible for the home and family, and denied the opportunity to learn about car maintenance.

With my new partner, when he wanted a child, he assured me that he was happy to do his part in looking after the child so that I could go and capatalise on opportunities of my own. However, initially when this occurred, he complained. I had been looking after the baby all week whilst he had been at work, so on the weekend I went out to do some work of my own, and he complained about being left at home with the baby. Thankfully, it only took a bit of discussion and is now much more equitable. However, his initial impressions did bother me.

========

So in short, I believe we have the illusion of equality. But when you get down to it, no there is not true equality. The problem is because the illusion is there, it is hard to really see the differences.

[Mrs Nietzsche]

Peppah I've no idea what you are talking about.

I posted quite a few links and talked about research quite a lot earlier on.

[sweetseven]

Oh, and as for fear of being attacked/raped, for the most part it was not a concern of mine.

However, there have been instances where I was concerned.

As an older child (pre-teen) riding my bike along a bikepath. Another young boy physically blocked me and grabbed me, and told me that he was going to have sex with me. I got back on my bike, fled home, and was shaken for a few days.

As a young adult, travelling home from a late night university lecture, walking behind a closed shopping centre on the way home, I noticed a man walking about 30m behind me. I was concerned, and increased my pace. He also increased his pace. This continued until he had almost caught up to me, at which point I broke out into a run. Again I was shaken for a few weeks, and asked for an escort home from the bus stop until I felt more confident. (note in this case, the man in question hadn't make any overt action, and there is the possibility that my fears were unfounded.)

[Jakois]

When I was growing up, I was taught, and given the impression of, equality of the sexes. However I was shocked to discover this actually wasn't the case, not even in my own family.

I was allowed and encouraged to do all the same things as boys as a small child, but after puberty, suddenly my father was concerned about protecting my femininity, and removed opportunities that would harden me.

Whilst dating, I had the impressions of equality, though upon getting married and living together, it turned out completely different, and I was expected to be responsible for the home and family, and denied the opportunity to learn about car maintenance.

With my new partner, when he wanted a child, he assured me that he was happy to do his part in looking after the child so that I could go and capatalise on opportunities of my own. However, initially when this occurred, he complained. I had been looking after the baby all week whilst he had been at work, so on the weekend I went out to do some work of my own, and he complained about being left at home with the baby. Thankfully, it only took a bit of discussion and is now much more equitable. However, his initial impressions did bother me.

========

So in short, I believe we have the illusion of equality. But when you get down to it, no there is not true equality. The problem is because the illusion is there, it is hard to really see the differences.

I think your whole post is wonderfully written, but I especially like the piece I Bolded:yelclap::yelclap:.

It really sums it all up in a simple to understand way:thumbsup:.

[BigRedV]

Yeah but what man would come forward to say he was raped by a women. So it snot like women get raped more, men are just to ashamed to come forward. Thats also been proven

Don't know where you get your proof from but I found this:

Australian research suggests that one in five Australian women and one in twenty Australian men over the age of 18 have been "forced or frightened into unwanted sexual activity" across their lifetimes, many of them having experienced coercion when aged under 16 years (de Visser, Smith, Rissel, Richters and Grulich 2003: 200). However, very few of these experiences reach the criminal justice system. National and international research suggests that 15 per cent or less of these offences are reported to the police (McLennan 1996; Cook, David and Grant 2001; de Visser et al. 2003; Lievore 2003).

From this source: the ACSSA - Australian Centre for the Study of Sexual Assault
http://www.aifs.gov.au/acssa/pubs/issue/i4.html#repcon

[Mummaholic]

I just wanted to open a thread about the disadvantages women and children face because of Male Privilege.

The following sentiments echo my personal views.
"Privilege, at its core, is the advantages that people benefit from based solely on their social status. It is a status that is conferred by society to certain groups, not seized by individuals, which is why it can be difficult sometimes to see one’s own privilege."

"Privilege is: About how society accommodates you. It’s about advantages you have that you think are normal. It’s about you being normal, and others being the deviation from normal."
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/11/faq-what-is-male-privilege/ (http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/11/faq-what-is-male-privilege/)

Men are the norm, women are the deviation of normal.

I feel sad when I see women automatically privileging men.

Women (and children) make up the majority of the worlds poor. They are far more often to be left holding the baby. Women recieve less pay for the same job, Women are more likely to be assualted or sexually assaulted. the list goes on.

Where do you see male privilege?

I see it everywhere. Thanks for your well worded post, SSP.

I agree with your sentiments. I find it amazing because some women are paid the same as men in their immediate circle, they refuse to acknowledge that there could be any unfairness. :detective: Weird.

[Whispers]

Any other fields?

I know the funeral industry was the same for male and female..as is the security industry. Not sure about the police...will ask dh when he wakes up (worked last night).
im pretty sure factory workes are paid the same as well as retail workers,

[Lemonhead]

My man is very 'productive'. He works hard and then comes home to look after our son.

He has not raped or sexually abused anyone, and I have sex with him because I want to, not because he made me feel like I needed to due to his 'male priviledge' :confused:.

I like staying at home and doing the housework and cleaning. If at any time I wished to go back to work he would be nothing but supportive.

I just hate when people start this debate because they generalise and start rattling off figures about how all men are chauvinistic pigs who demand dinner and a hot bath after a long day of slapping their secretary on the behind. I get the whole feminism thing, seriously, yay girl power, but come on...lets give the men vs women thing a rest.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

Don't know where you get your proof from but I found this:

Australian research suggests that one in five Australian women and one in twenty Australian men over the age of 18 have been "forced or frightened into unwanted sexual activity" across their lifetimes, many of them having experienced coercion when aged under 16 years (de Visser, Smith, Rissel, Richters and Grulich 2003: 200). However, very few of these experiences reach the criminal justice system. National and international research suggests that 15 per cent or less of these offences are reported to the police (McLennan 1996; Cook, David and Grant 2001; de Visser et al. 2003; Lievore 2003).

From this source: the ACSSA - Australian Centre for the Study of Sexual Assault
http://www.aifs.gov.au/acssa/pubs/issue/i4.html#repcon
:iagree: Both are under reported, but, it is very important to remember women are still assaulted far more often. It's just a sad fact. Denying either stats does nothing to help men or women.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

My man is very 'productive'. He works hard and then comes home to look after our son. . So is mine:confused:


He has not raped or sexually abused anyone, and I have sex with him because I want to, not because he made me feel like I needed to due to his 'male priviledge' :confused:.
. Neither has mine, nor my father etc, however it does happen. Obviously there are plenty of good men out there and no one is refuting that.


I like staying at home and doing the housework and cleaning. If at any time I wished to go back to work he would be nothing but supportive..
So would my husband, it's not what this thread is about, it is about the fact that women are often disadvantaged, and do most of the sacrificing etc.


I just hate when people start this debate because they generalise and start rattling off figures about how all men are chauvinistic pigs who demand dinner and a hot bath after a long day of slapping their secretary on the behind. I get the whole feminism thing, seriously, yay girl power, but come on...lets give the men vs women thing a rest.

I think you need to re read the figures, because no where does it say that all men are chauvanistic pigs:confused:, If I believed that even for a second I wouldn't have married a man, and I would be afraid for my son, but I'm not.

It's like saying you hate white people if you recognise black people are disadvantaged.

[PeppaH]

Men, or whoever is the one working (or even both) sacrifice watching their child every day growing up to work! To look after their family. What do women sacifice? The chance to say they are better then men in the work place? If rasing a family is so damn important, why get so peeved when men (or whoever is working) work their butts off so the other can raise the family with money coming in??:confused:

[Lemonhead]

Woahhhh dissection :p

[bada]

I see it everywhere. Thanks for your well worded post, SSP.

I agree with your sentiments. I find it amazing because some women are paid the same as men in their immediate circle, they refuse to acknowledge that there could be any unfairness. :detective: Weird. :yes:

Great thread SSP

[Benji]

I think all working class citizens are disadvantated.

Those who are of colour, disabled, and women are at further disadvantage.

I've never understood why it is seen as "attacking" a group when simply pointing out that in society they are privilidged.

Some of the comments in these threads regarding male strength and male dominated jobs have me in stitches :laughing: I work for the construction and mining union and women in those industries have it much harder - NOT because they are physically "weaker" as stereotyped by many, but because they, quite literally, have to dress from neck to toes so as not to be harassed sexually and many workplaces don't even have female TOILETS so they can't even go pee!!

Saying that men in our society are privilidged to working-class women isn't saying we hate them, it's saying that things need to change so we are equal.

[PeppaH]

I think all working class citizens are disadvantated.

Those who are of colour, disabled, and women are at further disadvantage.

I've never understood why it is seen as "attacking" a group when simply pointing out that in society they are privilidged.

Some of the comments in these threads regarding male strength and male dominated jobs have me in stitches :laughing: I work for the construction and mining union and women in those industries have it much harder - NOT because they are physically "weaker" as stereotyped by many, but because they, quite literally, have to dress from neck to toes so as not to be harassed sexually and many workplaces don't even have female TOILETS so they can't even go pee!!

Saying that men in our society are privilidged to working-class women isn't saying we hate them, it's saying that things need to change so we are equal.

But of course if you say that 'coloured' people have advantages in certain areas, thats just being racist. It seems ok to say it in some areas just not the other???? :confused:

[BigRedV]

But of course if you say that 'coloured' people have advantages in certain areas, thats just being racist. It seems ok to say it in some areas just not the other???? :confused:

How is it racist??? And what advantages do they have???

[Looshkin]

I'm so sick of hearing about feminists and "for equality" are "man haters"
I feel it is an ignorant slur, just like homophobic or racists slurs used to mock the movement towards equality.

You will actually find, Rebcecca leigh, that feminists are women who love and respect men, who don't stereotype them or put them in a box and make statements like "typical man:rolleyes:" or "oh hes just a typical stupid bloke" - you will find the people making those comments are the type that will convey a quite anti-feminist attitude.

I think saying things like "typical useless man" is more man hating than anything I've heard a feminist say in the fight for equality.

So does that mean the anti-feminists are really the man haters here?:detective: and it's just an easy, unoriginal slur thrown around on BH quite a lot - because it's an easy cheap shot?

[CrankyAndTired]

Zeltronica, I honestly think that it is an easy misinterpretation for people to make.

Feminists come in many differnet forms, and SOME do portray themselves as anti-men rather than anti-patriarchy.. I know that YOU and a lot of women on BH are pro-equality, as am I but we have different approaches..

I think its easy to see the cause as "anti-men" when there are thread titles such as "Male Privilege" because the focus seems to be not on how patriarchy negatively affects society, but how good men have it. The male suicide rate alone tells us something isnt all good with men - but we've covered that before.

I agree with you regarding the demeaning statements made here and IRL about men. I cringe when women talk about "training" their men as if we are talking about training dogs.

I really think we would all benefit from using DEFINITIONS in OP's, when discussing these types of issues. Words like feminism have so many different meanings, and there is no "right" answer... so defining feminism would be really helpful I believe...

I also think that a lot of women, myself included, tend to react to the constant reference to the "discriminated woman" with a sense of disbelief because we are SO empowered in our day to day lives as women.

Even though it can lead to the false impression that things as good for women everywhere, I actually think its a sign of good things cause a lot of us are NOT facing discrimination and feel empowered to make life choices..

Hope that all makes sense, I've been chatting to my DH and checking on my bubba (who's been asleep for 3 hrs - unheard of for him!) through out writing this...

In summary, the clearer we can be with each other, and the more compassionate and interested we can be in each other's experiences/perceptions, I believe, the more we can learn.

Peace all!! :)

[Tam-I-Am]

I know some people see this as an aggressive way to answer - so I'm prefacing my post with this: I'm not trying to cut you down, or 'tear apart' what you've said, Livly - I just want to be clear in my responses :)


Zeltronica, I honestly think that it is an easy misinterpretation for people to make.

Feminists come in many differnet forms, and SOME do portray themselves as anti-men rather than anti-patriarchy.. I know that YOU and a lot of women on BH are pro-equality, as am I but we have different approaches..

I think its easy to see the cause as "anti-men" when there are thread titles such as "Male Privilege" because the focus seems to be not on how patriarchy negatively affects society, but how good men have it. The male suicide rate alone tells us something isnt all good with men - but we've covered that before.

The fact of the matter is that male privilege exists. The same as white privilege, or able-bodies privilege, or heterosexual privilege exists. Those things (whiteness, heterosexuality, able-bodyness) are see as the norm - and all other things are seen as abnormal, not the norm, not the thing that MOST of society is catered for. To say that is the case isn't to DEMONISE what is privileged - nor to hate it. It is to point out that an inequality - and more to the point - an INEQUITY exists.

Recognising that the privilege exists is not the same as hating those who hold the privilege.


I agree with you regarding the demeaning statements made here and IRL about men. I cringe when women talk about "training" their men as if we are talking about training dogs.

I really think we would all benefit from using DEFINITIONS in OP's, when discussing these types of issues. Words like feminism have so many different meanings, and there is no "right" answer... so defining feminism would be really helpful I believe...

That would be helpful - IF there was a common definition of feminism. Feminists are not one homogeneous group of people - they don't all hold the same beliefs, want the same things, or think that we should go about getting them in the same way. Feminism is also not (supposed to be) prescriptive - there is no union that decides whether you're 'allowed' to call yourself a feminist, or to rip up your purple card if you shave your legs (:p). This is why feminism can't be easily defined.


I also think that a lot of women, myself included, tend to react to the constant reference to the "discriminated woman" with a sense of disbelief because we are SO empowered in our day to day lives as women.

Without meaning to sound rude - doesn't that just mean that you're in a position of privilege? there were black houseslaves before the American civil war who weren't beaten, got to wear nice clothes, got privileges above and beyond the field slaves like 'pocket money', eating nice foods and being treated kindly and with a kind of respect by the people they were enslaved by. Does that mean that ALL slaves had it that good - or that there weren't things that those slaves might have wanted that were better for themselves?

I, too, am pretty lucky within this system. I've got choices, a good amount of money and the ability to do what I want to do with it, support, the right to do things for myself. It doesn't mean that I don't recognise that a) men STILL have it better than me in most circumstances, and b) that other women are not so lucky as me, you know?


Even though it can lead to the false impression that things as good for women everywhere, I actually think its a sign of good things cause a lot of us are NOT facing discrimination and feel empowered to make life choices..

Hope that all makes sense, I've been chatting to my DH and checking on my bubba (who's been asleep for 3 hrs - unheard of for him!) through out writing this...

In summary, the clearer we can be with each other, and the more compassionate and interested we can be in each other's experiences/perceptions, I believe, the more we can learn.

Peace all!! :)

I think that that's a fantastic attitude to have - one of an open mind, and a willingness to listen, at least - if not take on board what's being said. But coming into a thread and accusing women who are DEEPLY invested in their personal relatonships with *gasp* MEN of being man-haters, accusing women who are deeply conscious of the fact that they are raising future men and women of this world to be equals in every sense of the world of being man haters, accusing women of fabricating male privilege (for what gain?) of being man-haters is unproductive in the extreme (not talking about you here, Livly - you haven't done the above :)).

There is SUCH a lot of aggression and ill-will toward anybody who rocks the proverbial boat. Look at all the black activists in America, and how much hatred and opposition they have faced over the years - feminists face similar kinds of opposition and hatred. And just as African American activists faced hatred NOT JUST from white people - but ALSO from OTHER African Americans BECAUSE they were rocking the boat - so too do feminists face opposition and hatred from other women. That doesn't mean inequality and inequity doesn't exist.

[misskittyfantastico]

Recognising that the privilege exists is not the same as hating those who hold the privilege.


Your whole post was fantastic, Tam, but ^^^That^^ sums it up for me. Saved me trying to engage the thinky thing too.

[Larski]

Your whole post was fantastic, Tam, but ^^^That^^ sums it up for me. Saved me trying to engage the thinky thing too.

Snap!
I was just about to quote that sentence also - its brilliant and I hope it helps some of the other hubbers to better understand that feminism is not about hating men!

Great thread SSP. I was just thinking about this the other day when i was at work. I work in Health, and yes, everyone is on an Award pay based on their position & qualifications. So fundamentally it is equal pay for equal work.

However, when I look around me, the majority of the nursing staff are female - traditionally the caregiving role and often seen as an assistant to the doctor. The majority of doctors are male - usually this role is revered by patients and other staff, and doctors basically make the decisions.

Obviously there are some male nurses, and it is funny how often they are referred to as "doctor" by patients JUST because they are male. They are in the nursing uniform, and correct the term, but still get called "doctor"! Its hilarious! Sometimes patients recognise that this person is a male nurse - and then go into the slightly condescending "oh its lovely that you are a nurse" or the downright rude "didnt you want to be a doctor?".

And obviously there are female doctors. The reverse usually happens. Alot of patients automatically assume they are nurses even when corrected, or at least assume that they are a 'junior doctor'. Its awful when the Consultant is a female but her male Registrar is treated as the 'head doctor'.

The female doctors I know are also not just disadvantaged by these assumptions (which can come from both males and females - but are an example of male privilege and the way it permeates everyones consciousness) but also by the culture that exists around them. Like many other professions, they complain of having to work harder just to be treated the same as their male colleagues, and are also incredibly disadvantaged in their career structure if they take time off work to have children. people often assume that women who return to work when their baby is 6 weeks old do so because they need the money. I see this scenario often and know that its not so much about the money (as in Health we get more paid maternity leave than that, so there is no reason to return to work at 6 weeks) but rather fears about slipping down the highly structured and highly competitive system.

The other sad thing I see often is that female doctors in the hospital have to really play down any enthusiasm about babies/ children (to the point of claiming not to be interested) to be taken seriously or to be seen by senior staff as a long term prospect.

This is not about hating men or trying to be like men, just illustrating how the culture of male privilege is all around us.

[Benji]

But of course if you say that 'coloured' people have advantages in certain areas, thats just being racist. It seems ok to say it in some areas just not the other???? :confused:

Ahh but you see, they're not.

If we said 'white & upper class citizens are advantaged in Australia' that would be correct.

THAT is not racist, it's the truth. How is it racist recognising that racism in our country puts Aboriginal and migrants at a disadvantage?

Same goes with women.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

This is not about hating men or trying to be like men, just illustrating how the culture of male privilege is all around us.


Thank you for your POV it was very insightful.:yes: