CLoth versus Disposable [Archive] - Bub Hub Pregnancy & Parenting Forum

aardvark

28-07-2005, 11:47

Both my daughters developed hideous nappy rashes when using any type of disposable, regardless of the brand, or the use/non-use of creams etc.

Once #2 needed only a night nappy, we tried using a Pull Up instead of a nappy, but she would develop a rash even if she was dry overnight, just from having it on.

I washed my own nappies for #1, and it was a bit of a pain, but we had nappy service for #2, and it was fantastic. I'm going the cloth nappies again this time, and I'm planning on buying a year's nappy service again before I go on maternity leave.

If you use a good pilcher over the cloth nappy, and change baby regularly, I found very few times when either of them actually wet through.

When I ordered my napy service, they told me I'd need 60 per week, I found I needed 70 per week for most of the first year, and that really allowed none for use as chuck cloths, or putting in the bed under her head. I just used my own leftover cloth nappies from #1 for those jobs. The services are flexible though, you can change your order up and down as required.

BJelly

28-07-2005, 14:28

I now use cloth nappies for during the day at home. I use disposables for overnight and when we go out.

I had to take things easy the first few months after the birth so I just used disposables at that time - I didn't have a nappy service.

I find that I need to change my baby every 1 1/2 - 2 hours when she's wearing cloth nappies, but I suspect she wees more than the average. When she's in disposables, I can change her every 3 - 4 hours. I leave her in her disposable overnight, so for that sleep she is in her nappy for around 10-12 hours.

I use little flannels dipped in water to wipe her at every nappy change. I also use disposable nappy liners (with the cloth nappies) but I reuse them until they fall apart.

I have just bought some reusable nappy liners, but I am "pre-washing" them at the moment to make them more absorbant so I don't know what they are like yet.

So far she hasn't had nappy rash. When she has gotten a little reddened, I use some zinc cream.

At first I was nervous about using plastic pilchers, but I had to use them as I couldn't find any natural fibre ones. So far I haven't had a problem with them, so I'll keep on using them.

There's a really good website about cloth nappies, called "The Nappy Lady"
http://www.thenappylady.co.uk/Advice/Default.asp

Hope that helps :)

ecomumma

28-07-2005, 21:43

Here is a really good article entitled: Disposable vs. Cloth nappies - making an informed decision from the royal womwns hospital website.

http://www.rwh.org.au/wellwomens/whic.cfm?doc_id=7691

Ive used cloth from birth with DD. We used a nappy service for 3 mths and then I started using fitted cloth nappies and washed my own. Personally, I dont find it extra work. I figue the time it would take me to collect the extra nappies and put then in the bin is just about the same time it takes me to tip the nappy pail into the washing machine ;)

I cant remember who made the comment about sensitivity to detergents and nappy wash services but the one we used ph ballenced all their nappies so thay were actually better/less allergenic then what you can wash at home.

We did have to use disposables for 3 mths while DD was in a hip brace and I must say I couldnt wait to get back to cloth. The amount of extra rubbish, the leaks and the smell is atrocheous (?sp) :eek:

There are a lot of misconceptions out there regarding using cloth, mostly from the big nappy manufacturers and those parents who have never used cloth at all :confused: . Check out the above article, it is one of the more well rounded, unbiased views that I have found.

Good Luck ;)

jarrahsmumma

29-07-2005, 00:18

hi all,
i really wanted to use cloth nappies when i had my first bub but found he would soak up to 20 nappies a day, i was going mental cause he wouldn't settle as his nappy kept filling up, so i have been using disposabls for a while but the cost is killing me, i really am a tightarse, so i bought some homemade fitted nappies via eBay and fold a cloth nappy into a fat strip (about eight layers thick) and line the fiited nappy with this. I am finding now he last longer only 10 changes a day.

i use huggie overnight though and in the morning i could swear they weighed about a kilo :) i think i have the wetest baby in the world :)

peace
natalie

p.s the nappies only cost me $5 each mde by snugglebums

The Elf

29-07-2005, 17:01

Thanx everyone for the feedback. Tonight we make the big nappy decision :D .

I like the idea of disposables for the night - waking up every two hours at night to change before the feed sounds soooo tiring...

Can you fall asleep while feeding baby? Meaning, just kinda open eyes to pop baby on breast, then fall asleep and wake up enough to put him back in cot and fall back asleep? Or am I thinking of a fantasy world :D

aardvark

29-07-2005, 18:41

I found night feeds are best conducted in as little light as possible, I used a reading light with a dimmer switch, or at one stage, just an itty-bitty booklight for just enough light to see what I was doing. I used to make a point of not speaking, just getting on with the task at hand, so there is less incentive for baby to remain awake after a feed.

A lot of people would caution you against falling asleep while feeding, due to the risk of dropping/squashing baby in your sleep, especially if you are feeding in bed.

I had both my daughters in cloth nappies full time, even at night. I changed them before feeding, and afterwards if necessary.

Once their gut settles down, a disposable might be OK at night, but in the early days when every nappy is crappy, I would not want my baby left in a dirty nappy overnight. And some of the disposables suck all the moisture out of the motion, so you can be left with crusty dried crud to clean off in the morning.

BJelly

29-07-2005, 21:23

Once their gut settles down, a disposable might be OK at night, but in the early days when every nappy is crappy, I would not want my baby left in a dirty nappy overnight. And some of the disposables suck all the moisture out of the motion, so you can be left with crusty dried crud to clean off in the morning.

I suppose I should have said that now bub sleeps through the night, I leave her sleep in her disposable. When she was a newborn, I'd change her as necessary during the night when she was awake.

My bub never pooped in her sleep - only when awake, so if I smelt or heard her poop, I'd change her - there was only one occassion that she woke and pooped during the night while I was asleep - and there was no harm done.

Aardvark, do you do anything special for the night time cloth nappies? I'd be keen to try it if I knew there wouldn't be any wet sheets and bub would still sleep through the night. It would be great to use less disposables.

kaydensmum

30-07-2005, 11:12

Hi, i was very determined 2 use cloth nappies for enviromental reasons. However, living in Melbourne it proved 2 be difficult to get them dry without using the dryer all the time and then i had to way up the cost of electricity. I buy primary "seconds" disposeables from a factory and have a service provided by planet ark come and collect them once a fortnight for about $8. It's amazing the things they recycle the nappies into - this was the only way my conscience would allow me to use disposables. The website is www.myplanet.com.au for anyone interested in following this up.

Kat

30-07-2005, 11:28

Hi there,
We used disposables for about 8 weeks because I had a caesarian and complications so I couldn't do the washing at all!

But after that I use like other Mum's cloth at home during the day and disposables out and overnight. I am tending towards 100% cloth as my DD is now wetting during the night and also up every wee anyway so I am thinking why put her in disposables?

However she also has sensitive skins, some disposables give her nappy rash (like babylove) and cloth never do. Huggies and Snugglers are good & we've found huggies do less rash than snugglers.

As for cloth, we use one-way liners from Big W, I think they start with A or something. A big box for $5 its blue and white with a teddy bear? They are the only liners that have a. caught the poo and b. kept her bot dry in a cloth nappy.

I think you've got to be flexible. We found we used almost as many nappies for wipe-uip etc as on her bum anyway so it wasn't much different washing wise!

good luck

Kat

aardvark

30-07-2005, 13:05

Once the babies were sleeping through the night, I used to fold two cloth nappies together, and then put a Fluffies pilcher over the top. It was big and bulky, but it did the job up until they were toilet trained.

I'm going to use nappy wash again this time.

The more I read about disposable nappies, the less impressed I am with them.

There is some information at

http://www.envirokids.com.au/index.php?command=nappies

which makes interesting reading, but certainly does not provide all the answers.

That site also stocks a variety of unbleached disposables, and one brand without the gel. I'll be tempted to try them if we are going away with baby.

To be quite honest, the biggest problem using cloth nappies is that babies and especially toddler's clothes are no longer designed with a big bum to cope with the size of the nappy. When I had my now teenager, they were, when I had her little sister 5 years ago, the majority of trousers were cut with a very small nappy allowance.

Baby Girl

30-07-2005, 13:50

I used cloth nappies for DD1 until about 3 months and then as I was going back to work and DP would be home with her, he made the choice to switch to disposables...hhmmmmm.....no comment on that one. I laundered my own nappies and had no major problems with nappy rash or anything like that with her.

I used cloth nappies and a nappy service for DD2 but she developed a very bad fungal rash that through trying all sorts of combinations of cloth, liners and disposables over a few weeks we found was caused by the nappies from the nappy service. I can only assume they use some sort of detergent that she has a reaction to. I now use cloth nappies through the day that I launder myself (no more rash) and she is in disposables overnight as she wakes up too wet in cloth after a 10 hour sleep.

I have always used huggies disposables and never had any reaction from either of my girls to them.

Welcome to the first of many choices you will get to make over the next few years. It is totally up to you what you decide is best for you and your bub.

The Elf

01-08-2005, 10:26

thanx again ladies. We have decided on cloth nappies at least for a month and if the baby adapts fine and does not seem to have too many problems, then we will continue on with the cloth nappies.

So excited, can hardly wait for the bub to be finally here!!

Mor

02-08-2005, 09:03

Congratulations and good luck with the baby! It is such an exciting time!

I'm a little worried about some of the info I am reading here... there are so many awesome nappy options these days, even for those of us living in melbourne where the weather can be a little cool in winter (though not today, what a stunner!)

I have used cloth full time on DS since birth, and have never had a problem. We use a combination of fitteds (hemp + a cover and pockets) and flat squares, and never run out, even though we only have about 20-odd nappies in the loop.

To start with we used the nappywash service for about 6 weeks, and used snibs or t-wraps over the top - great, easy option. It helped get us used to the whole nappy thing in the first place, and given that we were changing nappies all the time, it helped just throwing them in a bin for someone else to think about. While we would change each feed overnight, we eventually moved into using pocket nappies over night which you boost as much as you need to depending on how much your baby wees. The microfleece or suede cloth inner doesn't hold moisture and allows it all to go through to the absorbent booster, so the baby stays effectively dry. The oter fabric is generally water repellent or a breathable leak proof fabric that means the sheets and clothes stay dry too. bubs now sleeps through the night (has since about 8 weeks or so) and we never get him up to change his nappy, it is full and heavy in the morning, but his bum is soft and dry.

During the day, fitted nappies with only a few layers of fabric and a verstile booster, work well for us. We have a dryer but rarly use it, we mostly, in cold weather, hang the nappies over a clothes rack inside and they dry overnight. I change regularly, probably more than most would, but it makes me feel better not to have any type of nappy that has been weed in at all on DS for a long period of time. Hemp nappies are an awesome option for super weers. It is very very absorbent, much more so than cotton, and much trimmer too.

The most important thing is to get and use good covers... There are lots of awesome options, wool is great for overnight, polarfleece and PUL (polyurethane laminate) are great for daytime. The covers are what keep any explosive poos in, prevent clothes from getting wet, and look so cute! Wool covers are 100% natural fiber and can be knitted or like a felt or a brushed fleece...

Re washing cloth nappies, we use a sensitive detergent that is eco friendly, and use about 1/4 the recommended amount. We have a front loader too, so that makes a positive difference on water usage.

Re. fitting under clothes. As babies get bigger, the nappies have less of a size impact on clothing. But fitted nappies are so tirim now, especially hemp ones, that the bums don't look all that bulky anyway. And it's great padding when they get to tottering on their legs!

Re. liners - microfleece or polarfleece is great as a liner. Just wash them with the nappies and reuse over and over again!

Re. money... you will save a fortune!!! Especially if you use the nappies on more than one bub!

Re. rash I haven't had too many issues with rashes, except when DS does a poo that irritates him - would cause the same problem in disposables. I use a nice, natural ingredient balm on his bum now and then, and when it's a bit pink and it does the trick!

That's just the 'system' we use, others use hemp fitted nappies overnight and they work beautifully for them. There are all sorts of combinations that work!

If you want to get some more information on Australian cloth nappies, cover and accessories have a look at:
www.ozclothnappies.org
There are lots of links to website of Aussie and New Zealand mums who make and sell great modern nappies and covers. and an FAQ page!

You won't regret a decision to use cloth, and if you have any issues or concerns, there is a good cloth nappy community in Australia, online and off, and lots of people who can offer advice.

But be careful, if you go down this track, it can be addictive!

PM me if you want any more info! :)

Good luck!

Lucy

H&B'sMum

02-08-2005, 10:01

I'm with Lucy on this one.
I have just switched over to cloth nappies for Harry. I know a bit late at 16 months but better late than never and I LOVE THEM. I didn't know if they would be as good as disp, but I'm really surprised by how good they are. There are so many good cloth nappies out there. If anyone want some sites just PM me.
We use mainly pockets with microfibre and hemp boosters and we have never had a leak. I have just got some hemp nappies and they are fantastic.
The best bit is that some covers are so cute and you can get so many different designs and patterns.
Also I don't feel so guilty about destroying the environment anymore.
Good luck in the wonderful world of cloth nappies.

Vanessa

13-08-2005, 23:45

I agree with Lucy. I am also a full-time user of cloth nappies and have to say that they are much easier to use than what one would initially think. There is just a HUGE range of different types of modern cloth nappies to chose from and they really are easy to use.
One thing that surprises lots of people is that believe it or not, there is no need for soaking nappies these days! You just do a warm wash and that does the trick. It really is hassle and mess free.
If you check out the link Lucy posted you'll see what's out there! Welcome to the wonderful world of modern cloth!

Vanessa

13-08-2005, 23:46

When is your baby due "The Elf"?

Ana Gram

14-08-2005, 00:32

waawa

14-08-2005, 00:39

As someone mentioned previously, the environmental debate will no longer be as huge reason as disposable nappies can now be recycled. I am also part of the My Planet nappy recycling program and it is brilliant. No guilt involved about filling land fill with disposable nappies

Whilst I think the recycling programme is a great idea, and a big step in the right direction for those who can't use cloth - environmental issues are nowhere near limited just to landfill. There's also crude oil and timber use, water and energy used in manufacturing, transport, and packaging.

http://www.greens.org.nz/searchdocs/other7493.html

Lara

Ana Gram

14-08-2005, 12:23

It's not so much a case of can't use cloth nappies for me but won't use cloth nappies.
The nappies are recycled into other nappies which means less timber use and the packaging is recycled as well. Every part of the nappy except for the solid waste is recycled including the plastic, which takes out the crude oil. People often use nappy services to wash the cloth nappies which is also transport.

I read the link and wasn't overly impressed by it. I have used cloth nappies before and sorry but it was time consuming and a complete pain.

yahhroo

21-08-2005, 22:25

If you research cloth well and understand how the liners, covers and nappy work it is a piece of cake! We use a combination of fitteds and flat terry nappies, and we have since day one with no nappy wash service. It is truly NOT HARD AT ALL, and sooooooooo much cheaper than disposeables! We use cloth during the day and at night, when we use a hemp nappy. Some people have commented that the hemp is expensive - well we can reuse our hemp nappies on our next bub, and the next and the next!
Honestly, for us there was only one option, and it was NOT buying plastic nappies! Have a really good look into it, and you will find the wonderful world of cloth is just fantastic! OH - and we are in Melbourne - we manage to dry almost ALL our nappies without the dryer.

Ana Gram

22-08-2005, 13:43

As I said, I have used cloth nappies before and found them time consuming and a complete pain. I have better things to do with my time than washing, drying and folding nappies. The nappy recyling is a very good step in the right direction for the environmental issues as well.

And for the reusing cloth nappies on the next child, well some of us are not ever having more children.

yahhroo

24-08-2005, 22:59

My apologies to chellegoth, I was actually replying to the o riginal poster, not to you.

LucyE

17-09-2005, 23:54

We have happily used cloth nappies for 17months now without a drama. It takes us 10 minutes every second day to wash, hang up and bring in the nappies. Because we use fitteds/pockets, there's no folding to do. We even use cloth overnight when it stays on for approx 12hrs. It's heavy and sodden by morning but no leaks onto clothes or bedding.

Recycling is a good step towards minimizing the environmental impact of disposables but in no way does it come close to comparing to modern cloth nappies.

Ana Gram

18-09-2005, 03:16

Actually i think it does compare. I have tried both cloth nappies and disposable and weighing up all the pros and cons of both, disposable wins hands down for me.

LucyE

18-09-2005, 20:00

The environmental costs of disposables are not limited to the use of non renewables resouces such as crude oil, water or the energy (mainly fossil fuels) it takes to produce/transport etc. There's also the timber used for the pulp. Who knows what's in the gels :confused: Then you have the disposale issue when the used nappies get stored in landfill for thousands of years! Let's assume that all disposable users flush poo down the toilet so we don't need to even consider the effects of faecal matter leaching into the water table.

Compare this to my modern cloth nappies which are primarily made of hemp or organic cotton. Neither of these use chemicals in the growing stages. Hemp requires very little water to grow. I use a front loader (energy and water efficient) to wash every second day without soaking in Napisan (again less chemical use). Then I line dry. These can then be reused on any children I may (or may not) have or donated for others to use.

For me, having used both modern cloth nappies and disposables, and weighing up all the pros and cons, cloth wins hands down for me - environmentally and and in terms of convienence.

H&B'sMum

18-09-2005, 20:10

I'm with you LucyE. Cloth wins hands down.

Ana Gram

19-09-2005, 13:16

And this is why i don't go to playgroup, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this subject. I am sure we are each doing what is best for our family and circumstance.

sopolicha

19-09-2005, 15:36

After having two babes in disposables all the time, my 11 day old girl is a fitted hemp convert. Now that I have worked it out, I am surprised how easy they are. I decided to use them out of curiosity more than anything. My daughter watches me put the nappies on and asks when am I going to use proper nappies.

I think like anything it is a personal choice and there is a for and against for both arguments, and at the end of the day who cares who is using what type of nappy?

I must say I think the recycling is an excellent idea, pity it was not more available, like most things.

Mor

19-09-2005, 15:59

waawa

19-09-2005, 16:15

For me it's not just about environmental and health advocacy, though that's part of it - it's the fact that the vast majority of mainstream nappy information is full of myths and untruths. "Clothies" are a very small voice speaking up for the truth about modern nappy options in the face of huge-scale multi-national corporate manipulation. This isn't wacko conspiracy theory - a trivial look into the media and sponsorship tactics of Huggies/Proctor & Gamble/etc will reveal this clearly to the most sceptical researcher.

I'm arguing not for less choice, but for more informed choice, and for that information being derived from sources that aren't making pots of cash out of disposable consumerism.

Stacy

19-09-2005, 17:44

Just wondering where I can find fitted cloth/hemp nappies. I am interesting in trying these out. They sound great. They are reusable/washable. yet have high absorbancy and smaller risk of leakage than the traditional cloth.

Stacy

waawa

19-09-2005, 18:45

Hi Stacey, I maintain a list of Australian and NZ nappy makers and sellers at ozclothnappies.org . there is also modernnappies.org . Do feel free to come and join in the chat group, too, for more detailed recommendations for your particular situation and preferences.

Best wishes

Lara

Benandrewsmum

19-09-2005, 19:57

Wow...such debate on cloth V disposable. Perhaps I will spark an outcry when I say that there way no way I even considered using cloth. I have had enough trouble learning to cope with a thousand other things that come along with a new born baby.

If I also had to wash, fold cloth nappies etc I fear that I would have had a nervous breakdown by this point!! My theory is that you have to have a sane and functioning mother in order to have a happy baby......so if disposables help just one tiny bit ....then go for it!!

Cheers

LucyE

19-09-2005, 23:21

The point that modern cloth users are trying to get out there is - It doesn't take any more work to use cloth than using disposables! Cloth users are sane, functioning parents too.

We just want to combat the misconceptions out there about cloth because we don't have huge advertising budgets to inform new parents who don't think they have other options.

Mor

20-09-2005, 07:23

Benanddrewsmum... did you know that there is actually no folding involved with modern cloth nappies, well, certainly not folding as in origami terry squares! :)

Stacy, the www.ozclothnappies.org FAQs and list of places you can get cloth nappies is great! A wonderful thing is that there are dozens of lovely Aussie mums designing and making these nappies!

Ana Gram

20-09-2005, 13:20

I agree with LucyE - well said! :)

I think that people SHOULD care who uses cloth or disposable nappies. Similar to plastic shopping bags, for which thousands of Australians are enthusastically taking up fabric bags, there are alternatives to disposable products, and I don't think we are seeing enough people in this population embracing cloth nappies - for the same reason they refuse plastic shopping bags. Let's hope diposables are on PlanetArk's next crusade. ;)

Yes, there are times when family or life circumstances make the decision for you, and i am not condemning people who choose to use disposables, I just find it disappointing that more people aren't embracing modern cloth nappies.

It's a pity you feel you can't participate in playgroup and similar activities. It's places like these that you learn about all the wonderful alternatives available, and it challenges a person to engage in moderate debate, and withdraw when they want. I would be interested in what cloth you have tried and found to be such a pain. Hundreds of women I know would testify that modern cloth is actually great fun! :D

But, as you said, it's up to the individual to make the best choice for their situation, and thank goodness we have the option of modern cloth juxtoposed to disposables. And, thank goodness places like this exist so people can learn how fantastic modern cloth really is!

I couldn't stand the thought of putting disposables on Matthew, ever. :eek:

My Planet are already recycling disposable nappies, which is an excellent start to cutting down the landfill problem disposable nappies cause. It may not be enough for some of you but in the world we live in today it is better than nothing.

I was a nanny and oncall childcarer for about 10 years before becoming a mother so I have seen and used every product available, and also seen every type of parenting style around. From this I have been able to see what works for me. For every hundred women you find that claim cloth nappies are "fun", I am sure I can find a hundred more that don't.

It's not that I don't feel I can participate in activities such as mothers groups and playgroups, it's that every mother I have encountered in person has had an attitude and something rude to say about me. That is what I won't participate in. I don't believe that all parents can have "moderate" debate over certain issues because some people feel the need to push their issue down other peoples throats if they disagree with them. Breastfeeding is one example of this. I personally believe if your child is happy and healthy, then other people have no right telling you what choices you make for your family are wrong.

I think you can tell people about your pleasure with cloth nappies, that's great for you. However please don't make the rest of us who don't want to use cloth nappies look like bad people for not using them. That may not have been your intention, but that is what I got out of it.

Mor

20-09-2005, 15:39

However please don't make the rest of us who don't want to use cloth nappies look like bad people for not using them. That may not have been your intention, but that is what I got out of it.

I'm sorry that you took my comments as a personal attack. They aren't an attack on anyone, and I do agree that it is important to have choice from nappies to breastfeeding, to all the other issues & decisions we encounter from day to day, to do what is best for mum, dad and baby. As I said though, it's great that we can enable people, to make informed decisions from both sides of the experience by participating in discussion here and in the community.

sopolicha

20-09-2005, 16:43

I have to agree with chellegoth on this one.

First of all I have breastfed two out of three of my kids. I don't really have an opinion on co-sleeping, if my kids want to sleep in our bed because they are sick, lonely, tired or whatever I don't have a problem with it, but I do not like doing it with my little baby. I agreed that my son should be circumcised. I honestly believe that it not going to cause him any great anguish later on in life or that he has been traumatised by the procedure.

I don't like controlled crying, but I have also used this technique with my boy and as awful as it was it worked. And as I mentioned previously on this thread personally, so far I am impressed with the type of cloth nappies that I have chosen to use, this after using mainly huggies nappies on at least on child over the last four years. And I made the decision that I was not going to smack any of my children.

So I reckon I have given most things relating to parenting a go and just adopted what I thought was best for my family at the time and what would cause the least amount of angst at the time.

BUT what REALLY annoys me, and this is only MY opinion are people who think that whatever they advocate (and without fail it is always topics such as breastfeeding/co-sleeping/not immunising/cloth nappies) is the only way that everyone should parent and they feel compelled to attempt to convert everyone to their way of thinking, and they justify it by saying "well you need to know both sides of the story to make an informed decision", but they never present the other side, only their own. I think the circumcision thread that got really untidy is a good example of this.

I am 33 and have only been a mother for just over 4 years, the biggest thing that I have learnt is that no matter what decision we make concerning our kids there is always guilt attached to it.

Girls, I say do whatever works for you and gets you through and unless you are deliberately harming your kids you have nothing to be ashamed of, as it is no ones business but yours and your family's.

Trix

20-09-2005, 17:08

Good post Sopoli.

My child isn't even bored yet and I'm already feeling guilty!!!!!!

Not only from strong opinions to do with breast feeding, co-sleeping, immunising, cloth nappies, but also whether I'm considering an assisted birth with drugs / epidural or a natural birth!!

And yes that circumcision thread went wild!

Far out!

waawa

20-09-2005, 17:09

Sopoli - I couldn't disagree with you more, about the guilt. I've made a certain set of decisions (not the monolithic breastfeeding/cloth/no-vax/co-sleeping set that you assert are oppressively promoted, yet most of which are minority decisions in Australia) - and I feel exactly zero guilt about a single one of them. If you've made the right decision for your family with the best information you had available at the time, how is someone else controlling your feelings about that? What is there to feel guilty about?

I see a bunch of information here on the new choices available in cloth nappies, which very few people outside of clothie groups know about right now - note that one mum here said she didn't use cloth because you had to fold them! - and a couple of gentle debunkings of the equal-environmental-impact myth, and absolutely no personal attacks on anyone else. I'm not sure why you're bringing circumcision into the issue. Maybe you're reading something into this thread that just isn't there?

Lara

LucyE

21-09-2005, 00:34

I'm with Lara here. I don't know why anyone would feel a sense of guilt for their parenting choices. Guilt implies that you have somehow committed an offense or were somehow negligent in your parenting, which I doubt any thoughtful parent would do.

Chellegoth

My Planet are already recycling disposable nappies, which is an excellent start to cutting down the landfill problem disposable nappies cause. It may not be enough for some of you but in the world we live in today it is better than nothing.
That's what I said originally:

Recycling is a good step towards minimizing the environmental impact of disposables but in no way does it come close to comparing to modern cloth nappies
but you disagreed

Actually i think it does compare. I have tried both cloth nappies and disposable and weighing up all the pros and cons of both, disposable wins hands down for me.

I think you can tell people about your pleasure with cloth nappies, that's great for you. However please don't make the rest of us who don't want to use cloth nappies look like bad people for not using them
Your feelings are your own. If you feel like a 'bad person', based on the facts, that's for you to deal with, no one can make you a 'bad person'. If you're happy using disposables, that's great. But when old cloth nappy-ing myths are perpetuated, I won't hesitate in offering a different view. Modern cloth nappies are more environmentally friendly, don't require extra work soaking/folding etc, don't require pins, are more breathable etc etc etc. You are fortunate to have many years of child caring experience, so this isn't new for you.
You've made your decisions, you're happy with them, what's the problem in discussing the topic of this thread? I have offered my experiences for those who don't have that previous experience with children and have to rely on biased and outdated information that is currently available.

Sopoli

BUT what REALLY annoys me, and this is only MY opinion are people who think that whatever they advocate...is the only way that everyone should parent and they feel compelled to attempt to convert everyone to their way of thinking, and they justify it by saying "well you need to know both sides of the story to make an informed decision", but they never present the other side, only their own
I don't think we really need to tell people how to use a disposable nappy??? There's plenty of threads about the problems of disposables, different cuts with different brands, costs, which are more absorbant etc. I didn't think it needed to be rehashed here. I'm not trying to convert everyone, I just want people to know there are other options because so many people I come across don't know about modern cloth nappies. IRL if they're not interested, I don't push it. I didn't think I was 'compelling' anyone here either, but just wanted to present a balanced argument to all the cloth nappy-ing myths out there.

Maghan

21-09-2005, 10:03

I'm a bit scared to post this, but here it goes! I have a friend who is a geologist. She works for a council and her job is to look after river systems (that was her major at uni too). She is a very environmentally friendly person. She told me that if a person does use cloth nappies, the only benefit to the environment is to not use nappy san/bleach on them. Bleaches and the like are really harmful to our waterways. She also said that modern waste transfer stations (dumps) have the technology to keep the bad stuff out of waterways. Just food for thought, please no-one attack me!

waawa

21-09-2005, 12:28

Hi Maghan, no modern nappy makers/sellers/groups recommend using bleach or napisan these days anyway, so anyone recommending Napisan is way behind the times. If your friend thinks that's the "only" environmental advantage of nappies maybe she needs to read between the lines on the environmental studies a bit more (if she's interested) :)

The large Environment Agency study in the UK found (and their results were further criticised for being biased towards disposables) that if cloth nappies are used in the most ignorant, wasteful, environmentally damaging way imaginable - they still only have an equal environmental impact as disposables being used at the rate of four a day. So cloth users have a huge scope to reduce their impact by any or all of: buying hemp or organic cotton nappies, not soaking in bleaches, washing on cooler water than ninety degrees, doing larger loads than 12 nappies at a time, less detergent than 100 grams at a time, line drying, not ironing, and so on.

Lara

ThomasMum

21-09-2005, 13:06

Imagine if one had 8 babies all using clothes nappies til the age of pre-schoolers�how many gazillions tanks of water being wasted, and the detergent, napisan all go down the drain making our already-polluted Planet Earth even worse?
Hey am just being honest here, I�m not attacking anyone with large families, I�m not attacking anyone who said that cloth nappies are better than the other ones�take it easy will ya...

My son has the most CUTEST and HEALTHY bottoms and that�s all the matter to me!

:D :D :D

LucyE

21-09-2005, 13:31

*sigh* Yes cloth nappies require water and detergent (but NO napisan) and there is an environmental cost BUT compared to the waste by-products of disposable manufacture and disposal, it is a less of a burden on our planet (especially if you reuse cloth on more than one child).

Lara, LOL at the thought of ironing nappies! Must be to get those sharp edges on the folds :p

waawa

21-09-2005, 13:31

Hi there, no one has made any personal attacks on any other mum in this thread that I can see, so I'm not sure why the defensiveness. If your babies butts are healthy and cute, good for you. False or misinformed environmental claims will be rebutted with facts here. This doesn't constitute someone else criticising you as a person or "telling you what to do".

I just posted some brief info on the Environment Agency results, if you're interested in more detail do feel free to message or email me. Cloth nappies do not have a higher environmental impact than disposables, disposables take a huge amount of water and other chemicals for manufacture (not seeing it doesn't mean it's not there), and no one who knows what they're doing uses Napisan on modern nappies.

Lara

Rainbowbrite

21-09-2005, 13:51

Never mind :) There's a thread started with the info i needed. :p

Melski

21-09-2005, 14:29

Hi all!

Firstly, I would just like to say that I really think that all Waawa and co were doing was just sharing information that is not otherwise readily available and went to great pains to explain that they were not attacking anyone or trying to instill guilt but geez did it push some buttons.

I was lucky enough to stumble on cloth nappies whilst pregnant with my boy and have used cloth nappies the majority of the time since he was born. I do not find them more work for all the reasons just listed and am actually interested to know how disposable users cope with the way the runny poo of a young baby seems to just slide right up the slippery smooth surface of an expensive huggies disposable and right up the back of the baby, putting poo all over the outfit?? Does this just happen to me because if it is a common problem, I can't imagine why it doesn't really **** Mum's paying huge amounts for disposables that do this??

My second question is regarding a downside of modern cloth (yes, I HAVE found one hehe!!). I have personally found that as my son gets older (he is now 5 months) it seems like the bulk of a cloth nappy is hindering his ability to roll, sit and bend in the middle. I have noticed he seems a lot more agile and physically competent if he is having no nappy time or happens to be in a disposable. Believe me it is not enough to have me convert to disposables but any comments on this would be appreciated. Also, it is a pain fitting some clothes over a bulky cloth nappy...

Finally, I would just like to put the call out to try and be open and non-defensive to other Mum's sharing information as long as they do it in a non-hostile, helpful way. I have noticed that it gets other mother's back up to even just see that my child is in cloth rather than a disposable and they start citing this and that claim about the environment and the amount of work involved etc. etc. and I haven't even said anything!!!!

Drives me nuts!! :eek:

LucyE

21-09-2005, 14:40

I have personally found that as my son gets older (he is now 5 months) it seems like the bulk of a cloth nappy is hindering his ability to roll, sit and bend in the middle. I have noticed he seems a lot more agile and physically competent if he is having no nappy time or happens to be in a disposable
I found DS (who's now 17months) was more agile during nappy free time but he just worked around it. He actually rolled at 11wks (wearing a Tots Bots). They will roll, crawl, sit etc when they are ready and 5months is still pretty young. What sort of cloth nappy are you using?

Also, it is a pain fitting some clothes over a bulky cloth nappy...
I find certain brands are a better fit (generally the more expensive ones :p like Fred Bare, Absorba etc). Target clothes are definitely designed for disposables. Pumpkin Patch have a mix of both...just hold up the pants and see if it's a 'cloth' cut. I find pocket nappies (Fuzzi Bunz, SwaddleBees etc) to be really trim that a lot of people don't realise he's not in a disposable.

Rainbowbrite

21-09-2005, 14:41

I do not find them more work for all the reasons just listed and am actually interested to know how disposable users cope with the way the runny poo of a young baby seems to just slide right up the slippery smooth surface of an expensive huggies disposable and right up the back of the baby, putting poo all over the outfit?? Does this just happen to me because if it is a common problem, I can't imagine why it doesn't really **** Mum's paying huge amounts for disposables that do this??

Yes it does! Its happened to me a couple of times and always when we're out :rolleyes: Thats why i'm looking into new cloth nappies :)

RB

Chickadee

21-09-2005, 15:05

... am actually interested to know how disposable users cope with the way the runny poo of a young baby seems to just slide right up the slippery smooth surface of an expensive huggies disposable and right up the back of the baby, putting poo all over the outfit??

In nearly 2 years of disposables (Huggies most of that time) I've never had poo leak up the back of a diaper. Maybe I was just lucky. I have had poo leaking out the bottom/legs though. Wherever the leak is, it's not nice.

waawa

21-09-2005, 15:15

Hi Melski, I agree about the clothes, there are a few brands that fit better - we've found Oshkosh overalls (from a secondhand store!), Plum, and a couple of others are pretty good. There are also specific cut-for-cloth clothing brands on the internet, feel free to PM me for links (I've no commercial interest in these). Bonds are hopelessly slim. There are some much trimmer nappies around too - agreed with Lucy that a PUL pocket stuffed with hemp or microfibre can be very trim as can some hemp fitteds.

Even bulky nappies don't actually hinder bodily development in any significant way - they were even used (before modern treatments became available) to hold hips in the correct position to reduce hip dysplasia :) On another anecdote my lad rolled at three months, crawled before six and walked at 11 months too, so we didn't notice any particular delay - he was mostly in prefolds and PUL or wool covers at that stage as we didn't use terries at all until later. But I always endorse nappy free time, it's good for all babies!

Lara

SweetSerenity

16-10-2005, 22:27

I used cloth nappies from day one. We only used disposables whenever we went out somewhere.
Due to Peter always trying to get away from me when i change him now, we have no choice but to use disposables. He wriggles to much and messes the cloth nappy up, plus i'm too scared i'll pin him in the struggle.
I had no worries with cloth though. I found they held more, didn't leak as much as disposables do, and i found cleaning and washing them no hassles.
I wish we still used cloth, but it's almost impossible with how active he has become now! :)

17-10-2005, 16:08

Aardvark I have the same problem with the nappies, whenever my son wears a disposable he gets a horrible rash, what do you use to resolve this issue?

You can email me speedwayatom@yahoo.com.au :confused:

MelanieP

23-10-2005, 11:56

Hi girls

What a civilised cloth vs sposie debate!! :) Ive seen some on other forums and boy are they nasty!!

Well, I have sat on both sides of the fence, I had always been a sposie mum, but the passion with which some cloth mums spoke about for their nappies got me intriegued, so I thought, what the hell, I will give some a go, and I have NEVER looked back. They are fabulous. We use PUL pocket nappies with hemp or microfibre inserts, they are funky, absorbent, trim and so much more comfy. Plus cheaper and definately just as easy to use.

We dry pail and chuck them in with a light load each day, so it really is NO extra work at all.

I did some research on sposies and it actually made me feel quite ill to know that I had been contributing towards

5% of our landfill is disposable nappies
It is ILLEGAL to dispose of raw waste (as in poo still in nappies)
800 000 000 nappies are used in Aus each year
500 000 pine trees are used every year to make nappies

Not only that, but the gel, crystally things that get on your baby's bot when a sposie is too full has been linked with cancer.

To the original poster, give them a go, think of what your saving and its not just the money, our dear Earth.

Hey, and I am not even a greenie, just someone who did a bit of research.

Cheers
Melanie

veve

23-10-2005, 12:00

Hi girls

It is ILLEGAL to dispose of raw waste (as in poo still in nappies)

Melanie

I did not realise this!!! how many mums out there dont empty the disposable... instead just wrap it up and chuck it??? not that it would be easy to police!!!

That explains why places such as special school and old homes have those sanitation bins...

thanks Mel....

nemosmum

23-10-2005, 13:25

I have used disposables the whole time for DS and I have never emptied the poo out. I had no idea that it was illegal, thanks for the info.

I have always been curious about cloth nappies but I have never given them a go. DS is almost starting to toilet train so I might try them out on the next bub.

I would be very interested to read any info on the crystalisation causing cancer if anyone has any, thanks :)

Rainbowbrite

23-10-2005, 15:44

I have used disposables the whole time for DS and I have never emptied the poo out. I had no idea that it was illegal, thanks for the info.

Ditto, don't want to think of how i'd empty out MJ's BF poo :eek:

I have always been curious about cloth nappies but I have never given them a go.

I would be very interested to read any info on the crystalisation causing cancer if anyone has any, thanks :)

I'm very interested in them but its the original outlay that i can't do. At the moment I layby bulk nappies and pay $10 a week off them. THen they're paid for when i need them.

Crystalisation causing cancer sounds very scary, links please.

RB

Mor

23-10-2005, 16:07

Here's a couple of links:

Royal Women's Hospital in Melbourne, really interesting and researched information about cloth vs disposable including the crystals.
http://www.rwh.org.au/wellwomens/whic.cfm?doc_id=7691

Crystals:
http://www.whatreallyworks.co.uk/start/kidszone.asp?article_ID=1061

veve

23-10-2005, 16:14

The super-absorbent gel can include sodium polyacrylate crystals which forms a gel when in contact with urine. There are particular concerns about these super-absorbent chemicals entering the body via broken skin especially as sodium polyacrylate and other chemicals designed to increase absorbency have had to be removed from tampons as they were associated with the development of Toxic Shock Syndrome. (cut from the first link)

thanks for the links :)

I found this bit the scariest.... so they had to take the crystals out of tampons cause they are dangerous... but hey- lets leave them in some disposable nappies... ???!!!! bizarre thinking...

xxxxx

sundaymum

23-10-2005, 18:44

hello,
apart from the fact that my family find cloth nappies to be better for our babies, in terms of not containing dangerous plastics and chemicals (such as polyacrylate crystals-it makes me feel quite sick to think that most people are not informed about the dangers of these superabsorbent crywtals, thew thing that makes disposable nappies so attractive!!), as well as fitting/ containing/ absorbing well/ even looking better, and being the source of a weird feeling of pride over!!
Now that we are informed about nappy choice, we could only ever put a cloth nappy on our children. The thought of disposables is a horrible one for me.
I found quite interesting, and absorbing information on a cloth nappy selling site, it is well informed, and does cite the RWH infohttp://www.nurturenappies.com.au/store/WsAncillary.asp?ID=17 as well as other scientific papers and resources. It makes good reading for anybody interested in learning more about what's in a disposable, and the cost comparisons are broken down thoroughly etc.
There is so much debate over the environmental aspects of cloth versus disposables, but irrespective of what you conclude on this, we found that for our family, cloth nappies are better for our family's health, and for our family budget.
And I could go on about the wonders of our fitted cloth nappy collection, but we'll save that for another discussion!!
Cheers...

annsam

31-10-2005, 15:50

Sorry, I haven't read every post but I too have wondered about the disposable vs cloth debate. I have disposable nappies and cloth nappies but use the disposable due to trying to cut down on washing and therefore saving water. If anyone knows, can you tell me what worse environmental impact is supposed to be seemings as there is a water crisis? I would love to use the cloth but have been "trying to do the right thing" by the water crisis. I'll have a skim through the rest of the posts to see if that answer this question. If it does - sorry.

LucyE

31-10-2005, 17:49

If anyone knows, can you tell me what worse environmental impact is supposed to be seemings as there is a water crisis? I would love to use the cloth but have been "trying to do the right thing" by the water crisis
I think this question has been answered in not just this thread but a few of the others floating around :)

Basically disposable nappies uses lots more water in the manufacturing process but most of them are not manufactured here so they don't use 'our' water. The water required for cloth nappies (growing cotton/hemp etc and washing) is less but it does use our current dwindling supply. Your washing method will have a huge impact on how much water you will require to switch to cloth so I can only give an example based on my circumstances.

I have a very clever frontloader that only uses 47L per full load (compared to my old Hoover top loader that used 150L per medium load). I wash every second day when I have a full nappy bucket and my machine automatically senses the load size and adjusts the amount of water it uses. I dry pail (so don't need to soak in napisan) and therefore use less water again.

Just as food for thought, imagine your child was toilet trained - how many times would they use the toilet and flush? On average, most people would flush hundreds of litres of water each week without a second thought. Cloth nappy users are just using water a different way to deal with excrement :p