Natural birth claims being used to control women

[MamaLlama]

I think I'm in love. With Amy Tuteur.

http://skepticalob.blogspot.com/2009/07/mother-is-factory.html

I thought this was particularly good as it is actually written by someone who can understand the studies, not just pretend to.

Anyway - whatever you choose - don't tell lies about epidurals is the message I think.

[Mrs Nietzsche]

Yes I absolutely believe in this.

From my hypnobirthing course, there were so many examples of low class women, african wmoen, etc etc who did not feel pain but just lent against a wall or w/e and out popped the baby.

This is just idiotic elitism, racism basically.

My husband (who is Fijian) siad that his mother and sisters etc all had a good laugh at the current epidural debate, saying anyone back in the village would have one in a shot if they could.

[CrankyAndTired]

Its the idea that if you prepare yourself enough labour won't be too painful that gets me..

My sister read a lot about natural birthing and was dead set against any drugs because she wanted to do the "best" thing for her baby.. But sadly she underestimated (or was underprepared) for the cascade of labour pain she had, and when she inevitably asked for an epidural she felt she had failed herself and her baby.. :(

It saddens me and p!sses me off that anyone could lead her to believe that the level of pain she would experience would be less by thinking of it as "healthy" pain or simple "intensity." :gloomy:

[delirium]

Hmm, I'm not sure I agree, especially with this quote

Most people don't realize that natural childbirth was invented by a man to convince middle and upper class women that childbirth pain is in their minds, thereby encouraging them to have more children.

Natural childbirth wasn't invented by men, it's well... natural. What was created by men are epi's, forceps and the sky high c/s rates. ;)

Natural birth doesn't say the pain is in our minds, far from it. In fact most women will say it really hurts. But its HOW you deal with the pain.

Look, I say if a woman is informed, and they want an epi, then she should have it. It's her body.

I just don't agree with this author and the way it almost humilates natural birth. Either way you birth is fine. I'm not one that screams at women that they are sooks or traitors if the choose intervention. I myself have had 2 medically forced c/s.

[MamaLlama]

I just don't agree with this author and the way it almost humilates natural birth. Either way you birth is fine. I'm not one that screams at women that they are sook.

Maybe its time someone does that to show them what they've always done to women who choose pain relief.

I also think that saying he "invented" natural birth really means in this context that he invented the modern way to bash women who take epidurals. Invented "the claims" not invented the anatomy.

[Mrs Nietzsche]

invented the ideology in a western context

[delirium]

Maybe its time someone does that to show them what they've always done to women who choose pain relief.

So it's tit for tat?


I also think that saying he "invented" natural birth really means in this context that he invented the modern way to bash women who take epidurals. Invented "the claims" not invented the anatomy.

I admit, there are some natural birth advocates that do demonise epi's. I don't agree with that. But there is definately some basis in their claims. I remember around the time I had DS (and had a spinal) that a woman in brissy had an epi, had the baby, was fine and then within hours of discharge literally dropped dead. Spinal fluid had leaked and somehow gave her a brain aneurism :gloomy:

There are inherent risks to an epi. I couldn't give a hoot when people have one, just that they know the risks. This story/blog seems just as extreme as many of the natural birth beliefs you speak of, just in the opposite direction.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

That opinion blog is a load of rubbish.

If women can go into labour informed of their rights and choices and what interventaion could mean for their birth, then that is wonderful.

I don't believe any woman on here wants other women birthing naturaly to the detriment of other womens health and well being. They just want them to know about all the options and what they mean. What your chances are of getting the birth you want if you take a certain path.

I wish I had known more before my first birth.

I have had one epidural and one spinal, they are not risk free, but were necessary for me. However under different circumstances there is no way I would have had them, and I don't feel I failed anythinng.:confused:

[MamaLlama]

So it's tit for tat?

I admit, there are some natural birth advocates that do demonise epi's. I don't agree with that. But there is definately some basis in their claims. I remember around the time I had DS (and had a spinal) that a woman in brissy had an epi, had the baby, was fine and then within hours of discharge literally dropped dead. Spinal fluid had leaked and somehow gave her a brain aneurism :gloomy:

There are inherent risks to an epi. I couldn't give a hoot when people have one, just that they know the risks. This story/blog seems just as extreme as many of the natural birth beliefs you speak of, just in the opposite direction.

And I know a woman who had an aneurysm in the early stages of labour before she had a chance to get an epidural. Proves NOTHING. There are risks to birth. There are actually risks of NOT having an epidural for many people, do they get that information as well? I would have had a c section but for my epidural even though I had a short labour. Do they get that information?

Amy Tuteur is far from extreme.

[text deleted by moderator].

[delirium]

There are actually risks of NOT having an epidural for many people, do they get that information as well? I would have had a c section but for my epidural even though I had a short labour. Do they get that information?

Maybe not. I am in full support of info for BOTH sides. It is up to the mother to assess the risk and make a decision either way.

For my first c/s, I got zero info on the dangers of the op, I was railroaded and left with no options. So in general I think women aren't given enough info.

[text deleted by moderator]

[traseal]

. There are risks to birth. There are actually risks of NOT having an epidural for many people, do they get that information as well?



Really? Do you have some information...im genuinely interested (not being sarcastic)

[jaq]

How about we all step back a bit and look at the reality, not the propaganda (on either side.)

Natural births ARE NOT SAFE for all women.

Epidurals ARE NOT SAFE for all women.

Anyone who says so (previous posters included ...) is wrong.

This is why we need information, and need discussion. Because there are risks and dangers and personal factors that change the odds with whatever option you choose ... that is why we MUST have choice.

Nobody on either side of the argument should ever assume THEIR choice is equally valid for everyone else. That is rude and disrespectful of the fact that women's bodies, and their births, can be very different.

[RoarsomeMum]

I personally would love to see ANY studies that suggest an Epidural Birth is natural.

- the blog was, well.. um, interesting.. but similar to a blog about some-one called Duderonomy being let into uni. - lots of fluffy lovey quotes and interesting ideas, but not much else.

I never though Babies born when Mum had an epi were drugged out.. but always thought they were not able to care for the infant as personally as after Vaginal birth (but not sure if this info is out of date, are Epi's fully monitored and controlled, ie, can you be able to walk and move properly after an Epi birth? - that was always my fear)

I have no problems with any birth process a mum wishes to do, but calling it natural confuses me. I had gas, and I don't concider my birth natural (always natural birth meant no drugs at all?) Was in a hospital, so not natural again.

I think its the linguistics that is confusing me.

We are controlled on a billion levels, and :thumbsup: to you for wanting to fight what you concider control.. just don't expect everyone to agree with you. (and PLS provide more info)

[Tam-I-Am]

And I know a woman who had an aneurysm in the early stages of labour before she had a chance to get an epidural. Proves NOTHING. There are risks to birth. There are actually risks of NOT having an epidural for many people, do they get that information as well? I would have had a c section but for my epidural even though I had a short labour. Do they get that information?

That is such a crock, and I wish you'd stop spreading that prime piece of misinformation.

Epidurals carrier fewer risks than systemic opioid pain relief. There are no risks associated with NOT having a big needle stuck in your back and having your dura filled with opioid medications. None. And to insist that there are is to deliberately misinform people.


Amy Tuteur is far from extreme.

In your opinion. In mine, she's a scalpal-happy obstetrician who wouldn't know normal birth if it bit her on the bum, and who, like you, likes to spread fear and misinformation about birth where ever she goes.

[text deleted by moderator]

ML, you have such extreme double-standards with regard to your behaviour. You actually called natural birthers 'delusional' and 'liars' the other day, stating that they might fool themselves into believing that drug-free labour can be painfree. You cannot accept that your own experiences are not able to be generalised to the wider population, and get extremely defensive whenever anybody points out scientific evidence, or anecdote, to the contrary.

At the end of the day, I have absolutely NO argument with women choosing whatever method they wish to bring their babies into the world, be that drug-free homebirth or some variant of it, birthing centre, hospital vaginal birth, up to and including caesarean section. What I have argument with is actively attempting to frighten newly pregnant women into making YOUR choices.

I'm sorry your labours have been so terrible for you. Truly and sincerely I am. I agree with you when you say your midwife should have given you the epidural that you requested, when you requested it. That was your choice to make, she was in the wrong. I can absolutely see how that would have been extremely traumatic for you, and I wouldn't wish that kind of trauma on any woman. However, this business, this attempt to ensure that every woman that you come across is scared so silly to go into labour, so requests and epidural before she even KNOWS what her pain threshold is like, whether she will even experience pain, without knowing her individual circumstances - it's just out and out wrong. Birth trauma can just as easily be CAUSED BY intervention (ie epidurals) as it can be prevented by them - the differences are as nuanced as human individual differences themselves.

[Looshkin]

I found this a good article. (http://www.birthinternational.com/articles/sarah02.html)
I didn't really understand the difference, or that there was a difference for anyone else interested.

I think information should be provided with both risks and benefits explained in a slightly less emotively invested source.

As far as the natural birth being invented by a man as an elitist practise or any form of subjugation, I find that particularly ridiculous.
I would have thought that women were birthing in this 'natural modern' way, long before him, but because he was a man he could have been seen on equal term to men in the medical profession.

I think the importance with considering intervention before you actually need it, is to consider obstetricians seem to be learning as they go.... trialling treatments on women since the start of medicine really..

What I mean by that is they seem to be working out what 'shouldn't' be done only after a huge amount of cases of of that particular intervention have gone terribly wrong. Take the huge numbers of incidents of ruptured uterus after induction using misoprostol - and that was only stopped and changed totally for pitocin in the late 90s!!

look, what I mean is that I hardly feel bashing those who choose natural birth for the benefits and avoiding many risks - and infering that they are being subjugated makes your choice any more valid. You need to do your own research and come to a decision as to what sits best with you for your choices in birth, and what you will choose in certain situations if and when they arrise.

I don't understand this natural bashing attitude.. I really don't..
You could also twist things to say epidurals were designed to subjugate a woman so she could be easily coerced into treatment and easily 'managed' and 'nursed' and 'quiet' by reading any of the accounts of birth rape or birth trauma.. I mean really.. it makes someone appear as if they have ulterior reasons that is driving this need to put down others choices in this way.

[Roopee]

There are actually risks of NOT having an epidural for many people, do they get that information as well?

Really? Can you share please? I would love to see some evidence on this?


How about we all step back a bit and look at the reality, not the propaganda (on either side.)

Natural births ARE NOT SAFE for all women.

Epidurals ARE NOT SAFE for all women.

Anyone who says so (previous posters included ...) is wrong.

This is why we need information, and need discussion. Because there are risks and dangers and personal factors that change the odds with whatever option you choose ... that is why we MUST have choice.

Nobody on either side of the argument should ever assume THEIR choice is equally valid for everyone else. That is rude and disrespectful of the fact that women's bodies, and their births, can be very different.

Yay! Good post this one ^^^:flowerz:

[stellarella]

I don't understand all your aggression.
You sound very defensive and on the attack.

You don't have to be defensive about wanting to have an epidural. They do have their place and sometimes women need them to get through. I had an epidural during my first labour and at the time I really felt like I couldn't go on without it.

You sound really offended by "natural birth nutters" but while you defend yourself you are being really offensive to anyone who is trying to share information about the risks of epidurals.

At the same time you are making some really odd statements about epidurals which are completely untrue.

[MamaLlama]

Last I looked this was the epidurals forum. Do I have to edit the OP to make it clearer that it is not up for debate with natural birth advocates?

As for not believing me - here's the details NOT that I should have to.

I was told by my specialist for my prior condition that I was not to push more than an hour at most. Reason is that it would probably cause my other condition to cause a problem which involved major major surgery.

I got to 10cm fairly quickly and the OB did not want to do a c section because of said prior condition. But bubs was wayyyyy up and nowhere near birth.

So he left me at 10cm for nearly 3 hours waiting for bub to descend (naturally as opposed to forceps or c section). If I had not had the epidural there's no way I could have not pushed for 3 hours at 10cm. I would have ended up with a c section within the hour with certainty. Because of the epidural I had a normal vaginal birth.

BTW last I checked epidural births ARE vaginal unless stated otherwise. So contrasting them doesn't make sense.

[MamaLlama]

I don't understand all your aggression.
You sound very defensive and on the attack.

At the same time you are making some really odd statements about epidurals which are completely untrue.

If these statements are true then you will know how you and others sound all the time then. Excellent for educational purposes!

[Tam-I-Am]

If these statements are true then you will know how you and others sound all the time then. Excellent for educational purposes!

Again, not true. The statements made by StellaElla, myself, Emylou et al who have refuted your claims about epidurals in the past have all been backed up by cited scientific literature.

The 'evidence' you have 'provided' does not - in fact all that it says is that epidural anaesthesia is safer than systemic opioid pain relief. It makes absolutely no comparison between the safety of epidural anaesthesia to drug-free labour and childbirth, and to use the study to make such claims and comparisons means that you're either deliberately misrepresenting the information, or have failed to understand it.

[Roopee]

I would say, MamaLlama that you would be a rare case. So while an epidural may have been what was best for you at that time I don't think that it is the case for 'many' women.

Sorry- I just don't.

Oh and this may well be the epidural section but just because something is written in here doesn't mean its fact and if some 'nutters' want to come in and refute or challenge your claims I would be thinking that they would be well within their rights.

[RoarsomeMum]

BTW last I checked epidural births ARE vaginal unless stated otherwise. So contrasting them doesn't make sense.


BTW, last time I checked, having a Needle shoved into your spine was not natural, so calling it that, does not make any sense. (easier to get caught up in Linguistics that facts?)

I actually asked a question, Was interested in the answer, totally did not get the thread was about you being peeved at something (epi's not being considered natural? or just the world in general? can't really tell, and don't particularly care.)

So, anyone with Epi experience, can u move about afterward? - for future reference, in case I am put in a position where I might consider choosing it.

[Looshkin]

I think in an epidurals forum epidurals should be discussed not simply pushed on people with emotive non factual blog based information?

I don't know if I would choose one, but I'd like to access correct information like I found here by (http://www.birthinternational.com/articles/sarah02.html) this GP who lists all citations to each study. Incase I was in the position of needing to have one lets be honest, labour is hardly the time to be learning about the risks and benefits of choices we can make.

Like I said, I had no idea opioid and different types of medication were used for 3 different types of epidurals, I think information should be provided by all in the case of not being able to pick and choose in the hospital.

Anyway, I do think this should be discussed but probably not just backed up by a blog.. and certainly not through a source that needs to bash others choices to promote theirs.

[Tam-I-Am]

So, anyone with Epi experience, can u move about afterward? - for future reference, in case I am put in a position where I might consider choosing it.

It depends on the kind of epidural given. There are so-called 'walking' epidurals, whereby you can turn over in bed, maybe get up and go to the toilet etc - but you would be very wobbly on your feet. It would be difficult, although not unattainable, to have an active birth with a walking epidural.

Walking epidurals are becoming more popular in Aus, but are still in the (large) minority. Most of the time, women can't feel anything at all below their breasts (right down to their feet) unless the epi doesn't work. They, in this case, need to be catheterised.

[Fuchsia!]

Last I looked this was the epidurals forum. Do I have to edit the OP to make it clearer that it is not up for debate with natural birth advocates?



last i looked it was the epidural section, you are correct. But i also noticed that it wasn't a Pro epidural section. So until then you will have to deal with people disagreeing with your "out there" blogs.

Show us some real studies that actually hold value instead of these shonky blog posts

[stellarella]

So, anyone with Epi experience, can u move about afterward? - for future reference, in case I am put in a position where I might consider choosing it.

My experience was that I could get up on all fours to push, but needed to mostly use my arms to keep me up. Then for quite some time after the birth...I'd say maybe 24 hours I was very shakey on my legs. From the time of birth until 24 hours lately I very gradually got use of my legs again. I also couldn't move around because of the catheter.

HTH

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

I think in an epidurals forum epidurals should be discussed not simply pushed on people with emotive non factual blog based information?

I don't know if I would choose one, but I'd like to access correct information like I found here by (http://www.birthinternational.com/articles/sarah02.html) this GP who lists all citations to each study. Incase I was in the position of needing to have one lets be honest, labour is hardly the time to be learning about the risks and benefits of choices we can make.

Like I said, I had no idea opioid and different types of medication were used for 3 different types of epidurals, I think information should be provided by all in the case of not being able to pick and choose in the hospital.

Anyway, I do think this should be discussed but probably not just backed up by a blog.. and certainly not through a source that needs to bash others choices to promote theirs.
:iagree: Thank you for the link.

I made sure for my last birth that I researched properly what would be best for me. I had a C secton and so had to choose what was going to happen, I chose a spinal as it is less invasive then an epidural. I still had side effects from this and they were not pleasant. Women should understand what they are getting when they choose this option.

ETA, I could walk around that night, I had a catheter, I had severe itching all over my body, and then I had numbness down my left side for over a year after.

[RoarsomeMum]

Thanks Starella and Tam.. It does help.. (am glad you could push on all 4's starella! - was very frightened of being completely immobile if I chose Epi. and now I know the term "walking Epi" )

Thanks again.

[Ana Gram]

So, anyone with Epi experience, can u move about afterward? - for future reference, in case I am put in a position where I might consider choosing it.

I couldn't feel anything from under my bust down. I needed a catheter obviously. The epi was topped up several times to the point I was vomiting and shaking uncontrollably. I still get pain, ranging from a dull ache to a sharp twinge in the spot where the first epi was put in, over 5 years later.

[RoarsomeMum]

Thank you all again for sharing your stories.. I wanted an Epi, and had not enough time for one.. hearing about the effects, makes me some what glad I was not able. (that is said from some-one who was lucky to have a fairly uncomplicated, albeit QUICK first birth) My Questions are not in judgment, rather in preperation.

I wish healing for anyone who's birth was not the way they intended, and even so scary that they are fearful of the whole process.. :hugs:You all deserved better than that.

[sandy cheeks]

Sorry thats a stupid blog I dont get it at all.
Who ever said childbirth was painfree it's like getting a tattoo or a piercing it's not gunna tickle.
I had a nice, easy, primitive first birth then a horrid second and I couldn't have anything for the pain as it could of caused her probs.
I think epi's and the like are to help us get through child birth if it gets too much everyones birth and pain threshold are different.
A lot of judgment is put on women who have a easy birth too with ds people thought I was lying cos his birth was so good they also made hurtful snide comments like "lucky b&*%h" it's not my fault his birth was fantastic why shouldn't I share it too must we always hear horror birth stories at mums group it was like cos I didn't have a epi, stiches, needle I was not a normal mum I was a birthing freak even a middy said I was a baby factory WTF:crying:

[Benji]

I don't agree with the blog, MamaLlama, but I do agree with the heading of your thread.

"Natural" birth is subjective. Even though my birth included a broken coxyc bone, epidural, forceps and episiotomy I still think of it as natural. I am no less of a woman or mother because I had pain relief.

I do agree that people who forcefully advocate for pain relief-free births are trying to 'control' women. We should be able to birth how we see fit.

RoarsomeMum - I had an epidural strong enough for an emergency caesarian as my birth was going terribly downhill and couldn't feel my legs after my DS was born. It was no big deal to me because I mostly sat after the birth anyway to feed him and cuddle him. I wasn't going to get up and walk around either way.

[Pippi Longstocking]

One doesn't actually require science qualifications to understand the implications of using an epidural. It is quite possible to be able to read and understand, and make a decision accordingly without requiring years of tertiary study.

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[delirium]

There are also obs that feel that a higher intervention rate can lead to complications. If they happened to create a blog would you then believe it?

IMO there is too much hero worship of obs. They are like anyone, they can make mistakes, they can place their own personal opinions into their work practice and they can be bias. They are surgeons, not gods.

The moment I blindly take everything an ob says at face value is the time I lose my ability to search out the facts myself.


One doesn't actually require science qualifications to understand the implications of using an epidural. It is quite possible to be able to read and understand, and make a decision accordingly without requiring years of tertiary study.
[text deleted by moderator].

Yep, ITA

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

[text deleted by moderator]

There are plenty of people who would disagree with your opinion and this blog who have scientific qualifications.

My OB talked in depth with me about the dangers of epidurals etc, so that I made the right decision for me.

I believe every woman should have the chance to make an informed decision for her self. If she disagrees with an "expert" that doesn't make her wrong, there will be another expert who most likely supports her view.:)

The issue is informed consent and education of the facts.

[stellarella]

Well I suppose you would respect the opinion of someone like Michel Odent would you? Because he is an OB, and a very good one I may add....by your definition he must know more than you??

:D

[Benji]

What often gets me is that there is always talk of the possible harm that could come from an epidural during childbirth and why women "shouldn't" have them :ecomcity: but why is there rarely talk of other pain relief that also come with side effects and dangers?

For example:

When I had my wisdom teeth removed I had pain relief.

Why didn't I get lectured about that? I'm sure I could have had them out without it and I'm sure it would have hurt a heck of a lot less than the birth of my son hurt me, but I have to hear about how inferior or "ill informed" :rolleyes: I was about that.

The more I think about it the more I think it's because it's only women who give birth. We are told that the pain of childbirth is to pay for Eve's sins.

Childbirth hurts. Why can't we have pain relief?

Or why are we "uninformed" if we choose to do so?

It is a control issue me thinks!

[MamaLlama]

[text deleted by moderator]

Every profession has their outliers. You can often not identify them from the outside unless they're extreme. But in the main there's a consensus based on the knowledge and training. And that's completely true about epidurals. Several OBs I met in the US said they were afraid to tell their patients t hat epidurals were as safe as they are because they'd lose patients for being considered "anti natural"...and as one put it "hey if they WANT to suffer, who am I to stand in their way?"...but women have been their own worst enemies in getting information from informed sources, so they're really getting what they deserve when they suffer in childbirth I guess

[delirium]

Childbirth hurts. Why can't we have pain relief?

Or why are we "uninformed" if we choose to do so?

It is a control issue me thinks!

I'm certainly not advocating that women in pain can't have pain relief. That would be cruel and completely unempathic.

As long as a woman is informed, I couldn't care less what she does. If she knows the possible risks, assesses those risks as acceptable, then that's totally her choice :thumbsup:

[Pippi Longstocking]

What often gets me is that there is always talk of the possible harm that could come from an epidural during childbirth and why women "shouldn't" have them :ecomcity: but why is there rarely talk of other pain relief that also come with side effects and dangers?

For example:

When I had my wisdom teeth removed I had pain relief.

Why didn't I get lectured about that? I'm sure I could have had them out without it and I'm sure it would have hurt a heck of a lot less than the birth of my son hurt me, but I have to hear about how inferior or "ill informed" :rolleyes: I was about that.

The more I think about it the more I think it's because it's only women who give birth. We are told that the pain of childbirth is to pay for Eve's sins.

Childbirth hurts. Why can't we have pain relief?

Or why are we "uninformed" if we choose to do so?

It is a control issue me thinks!

What would be the motivation for that? :confused:

Back when I still cared :laughing:, I used to try to share what I had learned about the possible implications of pain relief in labour. I did this because I wanted to share information so that women were able to make an informed choice. It wasn't to bully them. It wasn't to appear superior. It wasn't to win any medals. It wasn't to p!ss people off. It was simply the sharing of information and it was offered from a position of care and empathy.

Now I don't give a rats.:p I'm old, jaded, tired and people get too damn defensive.

[wocket]

Natural childbirth wasn't invented by men, it's well... natural. What was created by men are epi's, forceps and the sky high c/s rates. ;)



Actually all manner of forceps where originally created by midwives.

[Pippi Longstocking]

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I'll take Amy Tuteur's professional opinion over any of those base and blatant lies.

As is your right. What you don't have the right to do is to force anyone else to take Amy thingamebob's opinion simply because you do.

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[delirium]

I don't believe you. If you cared you would let women get their information from peoploe not inherently biased in favour of painful births.

What, as opposed to getting info from women inherently in strong favour of epi's?

[delirium]

Actually all manner of forceps where originally created by midwives.

;) I didn't know that. See, you learn something new every day :D

[MamaLlama]

Of course midwives are invested in painful labours. They would be out of business if we all had epidurals. Why do you think the rhetoric changed from "we can help with the pain" to "the pain has a purpose so you can't call it pain anymore"? Because the marketing spiel wasn't working.

OBs who are usually accused of being biased for epidurals don't actually get paid any differently if the woman is in pain or not. So though they suffer the majority of the accusations there's no evidence.

Midwives on the other hand, the whole profession is based on women refusing effective pain relief. They literally would not get paid if women all opted for epidurals.

[wocket]

[text deleted by moderator]

I've never understood this one [that midwives know more than obstetricians] . Dr's have been to medical school for how long? Compare that to your average midwife or CHN. True there are the ocasional CS happy obs but the majority of them really do know what they are doing and don't want to just pop out for a quick game of golf while your waters are breaking.


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[Fuchsia!]

[text deleted by moderator]

So if reputable OB put up a blog post how dangerous epidurals are, will you then believe them too?

[delirium]

They literally would not get paid if women all opted for epidurals.

:confused: I don't see what you mean. Unlike ob's, middies aren't paid per patient, and whether or not they have pain relief or not.

[wocket]

this discussion is getting way to serious with the name calling. I'm going to do something about it!

Wocket disrobes and streaks across the field
:raspberry:

[KatiesMum]

As much as this topic is at the very heart of what this site is all about .... information and opinions about pain releif available during labour - if you cannot discuss this topic without actually attacking or insulting people who do not beleive the same then this thread will be closed.

There will be no further warnings!!!!

[MamaLlama]

yes,I've never understood this one. Dr's have been to medical school for how long? Compare that to your average midwife or CHN. True there are the ocasional CS happy obs but the majority of them really do know what they are doing and don't want to just pop out for a quick game of golf while your waters are breaking.

Actually I find that very very offensive. I read medical journals (as well as so many others i couldmn't possibly list them without making this post way to long and arduous). I'm sure that so long as some of the jargon is explained to many bub hubbers, or at the very least they have access to a medical dictionary, they could work it out for themslves.

Without any intended offence to you personally wocket, its the same as the point above. You can read them. You can maybe even get something out of them. But if they are genuine peer review level work you cannot know the context of the research, what it is contributing, how well respected the model and analysis is... you just can't have the specialist knowledge to be able to say "it means x in this situation". I know that because in my own field the peer reviewed literature is also very available to the public and I can't tell you how many times a taxi driver or other random member of the public has told me a conclusion "based on studies he's read" where as a professional in that field I just had to roll my eyes and say buddy you have no clue what it meant.

Being able to read words on a page is not all that's required to understand peer reivewed literature in any field of any degree of complexity.

If it were there'd be no point in publishing it.

[MamaLlama]

OBs get paid the same whether you have an epidural or not. Midwives however wouldn't even get engaged if you were planning an epidural with an OB. Birth centres lose business. Doulas lose business. OBs do not lose business nor make more or less money depending on your choice of pain relief. And in the public system they're just salaried and are not paid per patient either.

[KatiesMum]

You were all warned.

closed for cleaning.

[Mischief]

Wouldnt it be nice if we could just all respect each others birth choices? Instead of belittling each other?

Whats the big deal? Why does it matter what kind of birth another woman chooses for herself?

Im a huge believer in natural birth, I think its amazing that some women can labour without drugs. That some can have a baby at home with no intervention at all. I also think that its fantastic that there are pain relief options, that a woman can have a c section to save herself and her child.

I would have loved to have a natural drug and intervention free birth. But I had complications with both labours. A home birth for me certainly would have meant the loss of my baby, possibly the loss of my own life. Drug free.... I cringe to think of the emotional trauma to myself and my husband without the relief that an epidural provided.

I think that it is silly and petty to judge eachother based on birth choice. YAHOO for those who can labour without drugs. I have several friends who have done so, and I feel amazed and alternatively jealous of them for that. I also have other friends who have chosen to have an elective C Section because of various fears or advice. Then there are others who have home birthed, free birthed, had midwife care, or see an ob for every visit.

Seriously.... does it really count in the end how a woman labours except to her. How you labour does not make you a bigger person. Im sorry, it makes me so cross to see those who blatently disrespect anothers rights to chose.

[KatiesMum]

Ok - I am re-opening ....but keep it nice.

We are ALL adults who can discuss issues and share information without insulting and attacking each other.

If this thread requires any further moderator attention, it will be permanently closed.

:shakehands:

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

Wouldnt it be nice if we could just all respect each others birth choices? Instead of belittling each other?

Whats the big deal? Why does it matter what kind of birth another woman chooses for herself?

Im a huge believer in natural birth, I think its amazing that some women can labour without drugs. That some can have a baby at home with no intervention at all. I also think that its fantastic that there are pain relief options, that a woman can have a c section to save herself and her child.

I would have loved to have a natural drug and intervention free birth. But I had complications with both labours. A home birth for me certainly would have meant the loss of my baby, possibly the loss of my own life. Drug free.... I cringe to think of the emotional trauma to myself and my husband without the relief that an epidural provided.

I think that it is silly and petty to judge eachother based on birth choice. YAHOO for those who can labour without drugs. I have several friends who have done so, and I feel amazed and alternatively jealous of them for that. I also have other friends who have chosen to have an elective C Section because of various fears or advice. Then there are others who have home birthed, free birthed, had midwife care, or see an ob for every visit.

Seriously.... does it really count in the end how a woman labours except to her. How you labour does not make you a bigger person. Im sorry, it makes me so cross to see those who blatently disrespect anothers rights to chose.

With all respect, I agree women should be able to birth how they want and use pain relief if they want, however that is not what I see this thread as being about.

MammaL seems to want to put the message out that epidurals are 100% safe and natural and they are not.

If we are going to be real, we need to admit that their are risks involved, and many women even knowing those risks (like myself) will still choose one, because it might be the best option for them at the time. However being ill informed of the risks isn't going to help anyone.

I certainly don't look down on anyone for their choices.

[kymmy]

Midwives on the other hand, the whole profession is based on women refusing effective pain relief. They literally would not get paid if women all opted for epidurals.

How do

I be mws help with pain?

I never had any help from mws in my hosp births or my freebirth (where obviously a mw was not present).

I believe mws are not an alternative to epidurals but emotional support for some women.

[Oya]

:laughing::laughing::laughing:

Thanks for the laugh as always ML.:thumbsup:

[Areca]

Wouldnt it be nice if we could just all respect each others birth choices? Instead of belittling each other?

Whats the big deal? Why does it matter what kind of birth another woman chooses for herself?

Im a huge believer in natural birth, I think its amazing that some women can labour without drugs. That some can have a baby at home with no intervention at all. I also think that its fantastic that there are pain relief options, that a woman can have a c section to save herself and her child.

I would have loved to have a natural drug and intervention free birth. But I had complications with both labours. A home birth for me certainly would have meant the loss of my baby, possibly the loss of my own life. Drug free.... I cringe to think of the emotional trauma to myself and my husband without the relief that an epidural provided.

I think that it is silly and petty to judge eachother based on birth choice. YAHOO for those who can labour without drugs. I have several friends who have done so, and I feel amazed and alternatively jealous of them for that. I also have other friends who have chosen to have an elective C Section because of various fears or advice. Then there are others who have home birthed, free birthed, had midwife care, or see an ob for every visit.

Seriously.... does it really count in the end how a woman labours except to her. How you labour does not make you a bigger person. Im sorry, it makes me so cross to see those who blatently disrespect anothers rights to chose.

:confused: I think it's silly and petty to judge each other based on birth choice too but I'm confused by your post. At first it sounded like you were all for supporting women who want a natural birth but then the second part of your post read (to me at least) like you were knocking those that choose to do so.

It makes me cross to see those who blatently disrespect a mother's right to choose too but the most disrespectful posts in this thread came from someone who chooses pain relief.

So, sorry but I don't actually fully understand the point of your post, and I did see this thread before it was closed.

[nothanksbye]

I had an epidural with my first.

It landed me in an ambulance being taken to a hospital 20 mins away.
My newborn bub was left at the other hospital.

The person had hit a nerve and they thought I was paralysed. I had to have an MRI.

2 days later I went back to my baby.

I will never go near an epidural ever.

dd1 and 2 were drug free.
DD1 was...what they call an orgasmic birth:o:o
it was amazing.

DD2 was painful but it was bearable.

We all have different births. There is no wrong or right.

I really dont understand the vemom and nastyness.

When it comes to my girls I will tell them that labour can be amazing without drugs.
I wont tell them that drugs are bad or that they will be better people if they dont have them.

Just that in a healthy pregnancy , you can have a drugg free labour that is is not unbearable.

[misskittyfantastico]

Wouldnt it be nice if we could just all respect each others birth choices? Instead of belittling each other?

Whats the big deal? Why does it matter what kind of birth another woman chooses for herself?

Im a huge believer in natural birth, I think its amazing that some women can labour without drugs. That some can have a baby at home with no intervention at all. I also think that its fantastic that there are pain relief options, that a woman can have a c section to save herself and her child.

I would have loved to have a natural drug and intervention free birth. But I had complications with both labours. A home birth for me certainly would have meant the loss of my baby, possibly the loss of my own life. Drug free.... I cringe to think of the emotional trauma to myself and my husband without the relief that an epidural provided.

I think that it is silly and petty to judge eachother based on birth choice. YAHOO for those who can labour without drugs. I have several friends who have done so, and I feel amazed and alternatively jealous of them for that. I also have other friends who have chosen to have an elective C Section because of various fears or advice. Then there are others who have home birthed, free birthed, had midwife care, or see an ob for every visit.

Seriously.... does it really count in the end how a woman labours except to her. How you labour does not make you a bigger person. Im sorry, it makes me so cross to see those who blatently disrespect anothers rights to chose.

Kat, this thread was never about disrespecting birth choices. There was not one post questioning/judging/whatevering about choice of pain relief. What there was, was a repeatedly rude, aggressive, dissmissive attack by the OP on ANYONE that refuted the idea that epidurals are 100% safe, that they are natural, that they are optimal for all. There was an outright claim that those who disagreed with the blog, were ignorant, were uneducated. That's really not on. Birth choices matter. Birth matters. I'm really disappointed.:(

[CrankyAndTired]

MammaL seems to want to put the message out that epidurals are 100% safe and natural and they are not.



I didn't get that impression from ML. The impression I got was that she resents the idea that a drug free birth is the superior birth. It seems to me that she is reacting to the undercurrent of comments that imply that birth wasn't dangerous before the "dreaded" OBs got involved..

But lets get back to the OP - this is about epidurals, not a personal attack on ML.

I dont personally believe that natural birth is being promoted to subjugate women, anymore than I believe OB's are knife happy nasties! I have great respect for OBs and Midwives and all that work in the important field of reproductive health.

My only issues with natural birthing propaganda is the promotion by some of the idea that a woman can avoid drugs simply by preparing psychologically and "trusting her body." Its not that simple and I think that way of thinking can lead to dangerously low expectations of pain, for a first time mum, and consequential depression and/or guilt when she "gives in" and gets an epidural (as 90%+ of women do).

I do agree with ML that it is natural to go for pain relief, such as an epidural, when your resources to cope with pain are exceeded.

[Oya]

It is superior, for mother and baby.

[jaq]

Perhaps it is superior for you and your baby, Oya. That doesn't mean it is superior for MamaLlama. And it is most definitely NOT superior in ALL circumstances, for ALL women.

Suggesting as such is exactly the propaganda the Livly is referring to, and why the natural birth lobby is so offensive to those of us who were simply unable to achieve that outcome.

It hurts to be told "you should" when you would have loved to, if only nature and circumstance allowed on that occasion. (I have had a quick, uncomplicated, gas-only labour, and a 4 weeks prem, breech, emergency CS).

And I'd imagine it is particularly annoying (not to mention pointless) to be continually taunted with "it IS superior" when the OP clearly had no wish for a "natural birth" in the first place.

[confusd]

Midwives on the other hand, the whole profession is based on women refusing effective pain relief. They literally would not get paid if women all opted for epidurals.


epidurals arent always effective.

I went through my labour with out pain relief or an epidural.

But i had tearing and needed to go into surgery to get sewn back together. I didnt want and epidural or a spinal block (the 2 options given to me) the thought of someone sticking a needle anywhere near my spine make me feel ill.
so i argued and argued and they decided id have it anyway. It didnt work my toes went numb but i could feel everything from my knees up.
So in the end the doctor (who thought this was funny :confused:) said "hey well i guess you get what you wanted" and i had to go under a GA.


It drives me insane when people say how they cant wait to have an epi it will be great when there are so many things they havent thought about, like it might not work. I know of people who havent been able to walk afterwards for days. You cant just "prepare" for labour by going im getting an epi.



It is superior, for mother and baby.

No its not, If you birth at home, have a drug free birth or a c-section it doesnt make you any better. None of these types of births makes you superior to other mothers

[KatiesMum]

Perhaps it is superior for you and your baby, Oya. That doesn't mean it is superior for MamaLlama. And it is most definitely NOT superior in ALL circumstances, for ALL women.

Suggesting as such is exactly the propaganda the Livly is referring to, and why the natural birth lobby is so offensive to those of us who were simply unable to achieve that outcome.

It hurts to be told "you should" when you would have loved to, if only nature and circumstance allowed on that occasion. (I have had a quick, uncomplicated, gas-only labour, and a 4 weeks prem, breech, emergency CS).

And I'd imagine it is particularly annoying (not to mention pointless) to be continually taunted with "it IS superior" when the OP clearly had no wish for a "natural birth" in the first place.


Did I tell you how much I luff you :hugs: :p

(oh - and :iagree:)

And this is Kat's point too. It IS about birth choices.
It IS about pain relief choices.
It IS about respecting other peoples decisions and circumstances enough not to say 'I did it better than you' or 'you made the wrong decision' and people pushing their own ideals and choices onto someone else.

This is a place to share Information and Ideas ... not judgement or superiority.

[CrankyAndTired]

No its not, If you birth at home, have a drug free birth or a c-section it doesnt make you any better. None of these types of births makes you superior to other mothers

:):yelclap::):yelclap::)

[Pina Colada]

No its not, If you birth at home, have a drug free birth or a c-section it doesnt make you any better. None of these types of births makes you superior to other mothers

:yelclap::yelclap::yelclap::yelclap:

[Izy]

OK, I'll start by admitting that I haven't read the thread (not sure I want too) but I did read the link.

ML I do think this doctor seems very switched on.

Approximately 1% of women who have an epidural develop a spinal headache. It is incredibly unpleasant, and a real consideration in deciding whether or not you want to have an epidural.

My feeling is that when it comes to pain relief, women should keep an open mind. What's interesting about pain relief in childbirth is that women are often encouraged to decide about pain relief before they feel the pain. It's the equivalent of asking someone how much medication they'll need after the surgery, when they have no idea what they'll feel after the surgery. Only when you have some idea of the pain will you be able to make an intelligent decision about whether or not you need pain relief.

Another factor that should always be kept in mind is length of labor. You can stand almost anything if you know it will only be for a few hours. Yet many women have first labors that last 20 hours or more, and they have no way to judge how much longer it will last. An epidural can be an incredible boon in that situation, allowing a woman to get some rest in preparation for pushing the baby out.

There's no right decision. Make the decision that's best for you once you have all the relevant information at hand, in other words, once you're in labor.

This was the best overall presentation I have found. She doesn't seem to say that aiming for a natural birth is bad, which is a great change from many people who encourage epidural. She does seem to go on to say that there is nothing wrong with opting for pain relief though, and that an epi shouldn't be looked at as some evil method of disempowering women, it is in fact the opposite. An option to give women more choices, but only if they need it.:thumbsup:

[Looshkin]

I am confused.

The only negative attacks I have seen on *anyone elses choice* has been a member using this tactic to promote (via absolute false misinformation) certain birth choices.

The thread is called "natural birth claims being used to control women" :confused:

Could you imagine if a thread had been labeled "epidural birth claims being used to control women" ??

And the OP had then gone on a personal vendetta against others choices, responding to any question of her argument ad hominem..

I sit on the fence as per my choices, I support all womens choices but I do NOT agree with this method of 'sharing information' being supported at all.
Could you imagine if someone posted about "drugged up birthing wackjobs"
Yet it's OK to talk about the 'natural birthing nutters" ?

How dissapointing.


(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem)

[Oya]

No its not, If you birth at home, have a drug free birth or a c-section it doesnt make you any better. None of these types of births makes you superior to other mothers

Umm it is superior to your babies and your own health and safety. Just as breastfeeding is the superior. Yes it doesn't always work out that way, but generally it is better. Nuff said.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

I am confused.

The only negative attacks I have seen on *anyone elses choice* has been a member using this tactic to promote (via absolute false misinformation) certain birth choices.

The thread is called "natural birth claims being used to control women" :confused:

Could you imagine if a thread had been labeled "epidural birth claims being used to control women" ??

And the OP had then gone on a personal vendetta against others choices, responding to any question of her argument ad hominem..

I sit on the fence as per my choices, I support all womens choices but I do NOT agree with this method of 'sharing information' being supported at all.
Could you imagine if someone posted about "drugged up birthing wackjobs"
Yet it's OK to talk about the 'natural birthing nutters" ?

How dissapointing.


(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem)
:iagree: That was my take on the thread. too.

If the OP seriously wants to educate people and enlighten them, she should get the facts about epi's and post them letting people make up their own minds instead of being rude to people who disagree.

[Mrs Nietzsche]

I have a friend who has a pretty bad heart problem, she was advised to have an epidural during labour to avoid the stress on her heart from stress hormones etc.

eta: Info on epidurals here:

http://www.manbit.com/obstetspain/oapi17.htm

How many people have actually read the hypnobirthing book? Although it is a great method of handling labour pain, the book is full of this man's (**** read or whatever he was called,mentioned in the OP) twaddle about natural birth. Basically all about examples of how cockney women just stop on their way to the markets, say 'cor blimey' and pop out a baby. Utter bollocks, as any short study of infant and maternal mortality in childbirth in britain will tell you. Similarly, lots of examples of how African women just pop out babies and think white western women so silly for the fuss we make (no mention of obstetric fistula, and so on)

[confusd]

Umm it is superior to your babies and your own health and safety. Just as breastfeeding is the superior. Yes it doesn't always work out that way, but generally it is better. Nuff said.


what a load of cr@p!
Your still saying if you have a drug free birth your superior to the rest, How can something be superior to you childs and your own health?

[Izy]

I am so not going to read back all this thread but people who agree with the blog are dissing birth without painkillers? HOW can that be a logical reach when she clearly mentions that NO painkiller need be taken if someone is not in pain...

If someone can achieve an intervention free birth with something like pool/bath/yoga/breathing etc this Ob would not then tell them to have an Epi... thats against the medical creed!

[Phyllis Stein]

This is a place to share Information and Ideas ... not judgement or superiority.

I'm perplexed. From my reading of the thread, there was not one judgement, stated or implied, of women's decision to have pain relief, only many allusions to *those* crazy natural birth nuts. The *actual* natural birth advocates seemed overwhelming moderate by comparison. There also seemed to be a heck of a lot of unchecked hostility towards any woman who challenged the OPs statements about the safety of epidurals, with many defensively reading these challenges as attacks on their choices. Mischief's post for instance, read as confusingly out of context with the rest of the thread, though admittedly, I didn't see the unmoderated version.

[bada]

I am confused.

The only negative attacks I have seen on *anyone elses choice* has been a member using this tactic to promote (via absolute false misinformation) certain birth choices.

The thread is called "natural birth claims being used to control women" :confused:

Could you imagine if a thread had been labeled "epidural birth claims being used to control women" ??

And the OP had then gone on a personal vendetta against others choices, responding to any question of her argument ad hominem..

I sit on the fence as per my choices, I support all womens choices but I do NOT agree with this method of 'sharing information' being supported at all.
Could you imagine if someone posted about "drugged up birthing wackjobs"
Yet it's OK to talk about the 'natural birthing nutters" ?

How dissapointing.


(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) That pretty much sums it up for me.

[Oya]

what a load of cr@p!
Your still saying if you have a drug free birth your superior to the rest, How can something be superior to you childs and your own health?

If you need to have drugs during labour it doesnt make you any less of a mother.

Where exactly did I say a woman with no drugs is superior?

Natural anything is better, safer and healthier therefore superior to anything unnatural.

An orange is more superior to a lolly no?

[misskittyfantastico]

I am so not going to read back all this thread but people who agree with the blog are dissing birth without painkillers? HOW can that be a logical reach when she clearly mentions that NO painkiller need be taken if someone is not in pain...

If someone can achieve an intervention free birth with something like pool/bath/yoga/breathing etc this Ob would not then tell them to have an Epi... thats against the medical creed!

You should read it back. Read the unmodded version, ye of the pink knickers. Bloody awful. Bloody disappointing.

[KatiesMum]

I'm perplexed. From my reading of the thread, there was not one judgement, stated or implied, of women's decision to have pain relief, only many allusions to *those* crazy natural birth nuts. The *actual* natural birth advocates seemed overwhelming moderate by comparison. There also seemed to be a heck of a lot of unchecked hostility towards any woman who challenged the OPs statements about the safety of epidurals, with many defensively reading these challenges as attacks on their choices. Mischief's post for instance, read as confusingly out of context with the rest of the thread, though admittedly, I didn't see the unmoderated version.

and if you did - you would perhaps be less perplexed :p

Seriously - I dont understand ANY hostility.

Your birth and your choices are yours. No-one should be forcing their ideas or choices onto another.

[kezzaskids]

I am confused.

The only negative attacks I have seen on *anyone elses choice* has been a member using this tactic to promote (via absolute false misinformation) certain birth choices.

The thread is called "natural birth claims being used to control women" :confused:

Could you imagine if a thread had been labeled "epidural birth claims being used to control women" ??

And the OP had then gone on a personal vendetta against others choices, responding to any question of her argument ad hominem..

I sit on the fence as per my choices, I support all womens choices but I do NOT agree with this method of 'sharing information' being supported at all.
Could you imagine if someone posted about "drugged up birthing wackjobs"
Yet it's OK to talk about the 'natural birthing nutters" ?

How dissapointing.


(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem)

:iagree: It is threads like this one that make me glad that I did not stumble across this forum as an uninformed, newly pregnant scared mum to be. This is purely an agenda that is being pushed by the OP and I am very uncomfortable with the misinformation being presented, or at least the very biased one sided information. People that dont know any better make take this information as truth and really its not. i really dont care how a women births her baby, I have had 5 children and all manner of different types of births, all I hope is that she has the birth that she wants but I really get angry reading stuff like this and I dont think there is any advantage to anyone having this on a parenting forum like this.

[Mrs Nietzsche]

Ahh naturophilia.. touching.

I'd just like to mention, again - that the point of this blog as I took it (perhaps noticing it particularly as i'd already had the same notion) is that dr ****-reed or wahtever his name was, was a peculiar kind of racist snob.

His philosophy was that primitive women, ie africans/cockeys etc, don't feel pain in labour. If he had bothered to actually ask these women, they might have said something different.

[kezzaskids]

What is naturophilia?

[misskittyfantastico]

What is naturophilia?

Sort of like boganalia?:p

[Mrs Nietzsche]

It is a bit of a western thing that developed in the Enlightenment... definite ideas about what is 'natural' and what is 'civilised', etc. It is often a very idealised idea of what is natural, as though natural is of necessity optimal.

(It was once argued that anesthesia in surgery was unnatural and would compromise the human character)

Anyone arguing that everything natural is better should be well prepared to deal with cancer without treatment, having a child every year (no contraception), and so on.

[confusd]

Where exactly did I say a woman with no drugs is superior?

Natural anything is better, safer and healthier therefore superior to anything unnatural.

An orange is more superior to a lolly no?

some where around here ......


I didn't get that impression from ML. The impression I got was that she resents the idea that a drug free birth is the superior birth.


It is superior, for mother and baby.

and no, natural is not always safer, healthier and better. In many many cases natural is un-safe for both mother and baby.

[Mrs Nietzsche]

Sort of like boganalia?:p
ha ha ha! Not quite, but I am hoping boganalia will catch on?

[Oya]

some where around here ......





and no, natural is not always safer, healthier and better. In many many cases natural is un-safe for both mother and baby.

It (natural birth) is superior.

So please once again, please explain where I said what you are accusing me of saying?

Many, many cases yes situations can need unnatural methods to save the babies or the mothers life. But most of those could be avoided.;)

[kezzaskids]

It is a bit of a western thing that developed in the Enlightenment... definite ideas about what is 'natural' and what is 'civilised', etc. It is often a very idealised idea of what is natural, as though natural is of necessity optimal.

(It was once argued that anesthesia in surgery was unnatural and would compromise the human character)

Anyone arguing that everything natural is better should be well prepared to deal with cancer without treatment, having a child every year (no contraception), and so on.

Ok thanks :)

Can I just say though with regards to superior.... isnt a birth with out drugs that affect mum and baby better if it can possibly be done?? and unless there is a medical reason why, should it not be attempted and encouraged?

[Mrs Nietzsche]

Well I think superior isn't the word you want - optimal would be better. superior has a connotation probably best avoided.

It's like saying, avoiding knee surgery is superior.. it's not really superior, but it is preferable or optimal.

But yes, I personally agree that it would be better if possible... I think whatever is best is wahtever is safest for mother and child and best for the mother emotionally too.

I know a lot of women who had epidurals and absolutely loved their birthing experience, same for women who had drug-free births.

But I think for those women who got to a point where pain consumed them to the point of desperation, hopelessness and terror of the pain, it is better to have pain relief.

[confusd]

:no: read back, look at what you have replied to and the words you have typed.
\
and
no, i dont think it is.
So because i had a drug free birth, with no pain relief what so ever, im superior to all those people i know that had pain relief and/or a c-section. :confused:

thats a load of cr@p of i ever heard one.

Yes if you think you can go for it, dont have any drugs. But you cant say one is superior to the other. For that particular person- yes it may be a better option to have a drug free natural birth. But for many others it isnt and that doesn make it any "less"

[*babygirl*]

i think epidurals are the devil from my own personal experience... but in my case there was NO WAY i would risk having a 'natural' birth... i was NOT going to give birth naturally to a footling breech with the risks... if something happened while i was having a c-section it wouldnt be my fault.. if i had selfishly chosen a natural birth and DD didnt make it out ok simply because of what I wanted.. i could never have lived with myself.. my 'natural' birth would have been one filled with fear of what MIGHT happen... and that was too much for me!!

natural is optimal i'll give you that... but it wasnt for me and it couldnt have been avoided.

[headoverfeet]

Where exactly did I say a woman with no drugs is superior?

Natural anything is better, safer and healthier therefore superior to anything unnatural.

An orange is more superior to a lolly no?

:iagree:

[reAllytee]

I think the biggest problem here is the OP to be brutally honest.

She obviously has some issues & seems to be taking them out on here & baiting with certain comments, statements & starting threads like these.

Seriously.

[Oya]

:no: read back, look at what you have replied to and the words you have typed.
\
and
no, i dont think it is.
So because i had a drug free birth, with no pain relief what so ever, im superior to all those people i know that had pain relief and/or a c-section. :confused:

thats a load of cr@p of i ever heard one.

Yes if you think you can go for it, dont have any drugs. But you cant say one is superior to the other. For that particular person- yes it may be a better option to have a drug free natural birth. But for many others it isnt and that doesn make it any "less"

Once again, did I say a natural birther was superior?

I said a NATURAL birth. I fail to see why you have so much trouble understanding that.:confused:

[kezzaskids]

I think the biggest problem here is the OP to be brutally honest.

She obviously has some issues & seems to be taking them out on here & baiting with certain comments, statements & starting threads like these.

Seriously.

yep.

[bada]

I think the biggest problem here is the OP to be brutally honest.

She obviously has some issues & seems to be taking them out on here & baiting with certain comments, statements & starting threads like these.

Seriously. :iagree: Tell it like it is! :yelclap:

[sunnyflower]

:iagree:

Think ya just hit the proverbial nail there Reallytee,,

[headoverfeet]

I think the biggest problem here is the OP to be brutally honest.

She obviously has some issues & seems to be taking them out on here & baiting with certain comments, statements & starting threads like these.

Seriously.
And the OP wont back up her claims made in this thread and others.

[Phyllis Stein]

It is a bit of a western thing that developed in the Enlightenment... definite ideas about what is 'natural' and what is 'civilised', etc. It is often a very idealised idea of what is natural, as though natural is of necessity optimal.

(It was once argued that anesthesia in surgery was unnatural and would compromise the human character)

Anyone arguing that everything natural is better should be well prepared to deal with cancer without treatment, having a child every year (no contraception), and so on.

I both agree and disagree with you on this. On one level, what is natural can be fetishised to the point that we lose the ability to distinguish between what is actually cultural bias and what is inherent (women are 'naturally' submissive for example).

But childbirth is a normal bodily function, whereas cancer and other disease in an aberration. Where we *must* treat cancer in order to survive, normal childbirth (like normal cell division!) functions effectively when left alone. When that's no longer working, intervention is not only necessary, it is natural.

[confusd]

Once again, did I say a natural birther was superior?

I said a NATURAL birth. I fail to see why you have so much trouble understanding that.:confused:

because that is not what your comment was stating.

so i guess alot of ladies have trouble understanding the ways of the world because only a 'natural' birther has ACTUALLY given birth and is therefore a mother :rolleyes:

[Oya]

because that is not what your comment was stating.

so i guess alot of ladies have trouble understanding the ways of the world because only a 'natural' birther has ACTUALLY given birth and is therefore a mother :rolleyes:

I asked you to show me where I stated a natural birther was more superior, you failed to do so.

Your last statement is pathetic and doesn't make sense.

[kezzaskids]

because that is not what your comment was stating.

so i guess alot of ladies have trouble understanding the ways of the world because only a 'natural' birther has ACTUALLY given birth and is therefore a mother :rolleyes:


???? huh??? what has this got to do with the OP and actuall I really dont get where you are coming from here?????

[confusd]

get off you high horse. I quoted your exact words! where you said it was superior.

your no better then anyone else on this forum. Stop acting like you. There is no such thing as a superior birth. :no:

[headoverfeet]

I both agree and disagree with you on this. On one level, what is natural can be fetishised to the point that we lose the ability to distinguish between what is actually cultural bias and what is inherent (women are 'naturally' submissive for example).

But childbirth is a normal bodily function, whereas cancer and other disease in an aberration. Where we *must* treat cancer in order to survive, normal childbirth (like normal cell division!) functions effectively when left alone. When that's no longer working, intervention is not only necessary, it is natural.
Wot she said.

[KatiesMum]

***sigh***

closed