View Full Version : God and Marriage *spin off*
rainbow road
02-08-2009, 09:29
So I am curious about something - if god is such an important part of marriage and you believe same sex couples should not be able to marry as it violates the sanctity of the union because in the bible god disapproves of homosexuality....
do you then believe a marriage between a heterosexual couple without the presence of god violates the same sanctity?
Because if the reason you don't like same sex marriage is because god isn't present and that is a crucial element of a marriage to you then surely you'd feel the same about ANY marriage without the god-factor?
That's a really good Q forkie! :) looking forward to seeing others responses.
I personally don't see merriage as something that has to involve god! I respect those who do believe this but to me marriage is a lifelong commitment to the person you love!
Good question, I know our marriage will be betwwen me an DF alone!! 3somes never work :laughing:
Pippi Longstocking
02-08-2009, 09:38
My marriage is not a threesome with god. :p:laughing:
Someone else's deity has no place in my relationship. :no:
Pippi Longstocking
02-08-2009, 09:39
Oh snap Traseal - we posted the threesome line at the same time. :laughing:
rainbow road
02-08-2009, 09:47
My marriage is not a threesome with god.
Someone else's deity has no place in my relationship. :no:
I agree :yes:
But people vehemently deny they're against same sex marriages because the people being married are both women or men and say they're anti SS marriages (maybe they don't want to be perceived as homophobic, idk) because the sentiment violates god's presence etc
It's got to be one or the other yanno :yes:
either you're against it because they're both women or both men in which case all heterosexual marriages are dandy because they're got different bits
or you're against it because god isn't present and marriage is based on witness in front of god: in which case you'd be fine with any religious type marriage, same sex (my friends sister married her partner in a church and they're now pregnant :D) or heterosexual but against any marriage, same sex or heterosexual again, performed without inclusion of god.
Maybe it only makes sense in my head :laughing:
no 'god' here either :)
and.. I don't believe for the second that the institute of marriage has a base in religion either.
as unromantic as it may be marriage, in it's early form, was really akin to slavery or just a business deal. Also the husband wanted to be assured of any children being his so wanted to 'keep' his wife to ensure that.
IMO marriage today, and certainly MY marriage, is a public deceleration of the social and legal binding agreement that 2 people wish to undertake. Oh, and of course the whole love bit is in there somewhere too! :D
Mathermy
02-08-2009, 09:52
I agree :yes:
But people vehemently deny they're against same sex marriages because the people being married are both women or men and say they're anti SS marriages (maybe they don't want to be perceived as homophobic, idk) because the sentiment violates god's presence etc
It's got to be one or the other yanno :yes:
either you're against it because they're both women or both men in which case all heterosexual marriages are dandy because they're got different bits
or you're against it because god isn't present and marriage is based on witness in front of god: in which case you'd be fine with any religious type marriage, same sex (my friends sister married her partner in a church and they're now pregnant :D) or heterosexual but against any marriage, same sex or heterosexual again, performed without inclusion of god.
Maybe it only makes sense in my head :laughing:
You make sense, but I don't think it's an either/ or I think it's probably both, the first just isn't very polite to say out loud :footinmouth:
I think homophobia is complicated and probably encompasses a lot of different beliefs, perceptions, conflicts, ignorance, fear etc.
or you're against it because god isn't present and marriage is based on witness in front of god: in which case you'd be fine with any religious type marriage, same sex (my friends sister married her partner in a church and they're now pregnant :D) or heterosexual but against any marriage, same sex or heterosexual again, performed without inclusion of god.
Maybe it only makes sense in my head :laughing:
no, no..not just you.. makes perfect sense to me too! how can someone be fine with hetrosexual civil marriage but not same sex civil marriage? either you agree with civil marriage or not.. regardless of the genders of those being married.
I want to add.. I think of myself as an open minded person.. but i truly do not 'get' homophobia!
of course I understand the social conditioning and all that.. but when it comes right down to it I just don't get how someone can be homophobic! I hate having that misunderstanding, and honestly, that prejudice too.
rainbow road
02-08-2009, 09:55
no, no..not just you.. makes perfect sense to me too! how can someone be fine with hetrosexual civil marriage but not same sex civil marriage? either you agree with civil marriage or not.. regardless of the genders of those being married.
ah you delightfully eloquent being!
Malol, I know it's probably a bit of both...but I personally see them as kind of...mutually exclusive?
sockstealingpoltergeist
02-08-2009, 09:56
I believe it is hypocritical to choose which parts of leviticus work for you. Either you embrace Leviticus or you don't.
I don't see why just because it was socialy unacceptable means that it should continue to be so. Just because throughout history people wished to persecute those different to themselves, doesn't mean we should continue to do so, any more then we should be angry at those who don't follow the rest of leviticus.
God is not an important part of a marraige for many people, moreover the church marries sinners every day.
rainbow road
02-08-2009, 09:58
I believe it is hypocritical to choose which parts of leviticus work for you. Either you embrace Leviticus or you don't.
.
Like in the Chaser's when they were asking Americans to help kill his son because Leviticus said if a child speaks out against his father the punishment is death. :yes:
You can't pick and choose what to take literally and what to take metaphorically.
sockstealingpoltergeist
02-08-2009, 10:00
Like in the Chaser's when they were asking Americans to help kill his son because Leviticus said if a child speaks out against his father the punishment is death. :yes:
You can't pick and choose what to take literally and what to take metaphorically.
:laughing: That sketch was funny.
Lillynix
02-08-2009, 10:00
Gosh, Jag...can I marry you? Oh wait...that wouldn't be allowed :laughing: :rolleyes:
Totally agree with everything you've just said.
I don't 'get' homophobia and I never will. I don't give a flying toss who others love or have sex with, it's of NO concern to others and doesn't impact on the people that they are, so why do others have an issue with it? Stupid.
Gosh, Jag...can I marry you? Oh wait...that wouldn't be allowed :laughing: :rolleyes:
Totally agree with everything you've just said.
I don't 'get' homophobia and I never will. I don't give a flying toss who others love or have sex with, it's of NO concern to others and doesn't impact on the people that they are, so why do others have an issue with it? Stupid.
multi sex polygamous marriage DragonFly??
wow.. love to see Rudd pass THAT one! hahaha :laughing:
bronny-jane
02-08-2009, 10:05
i dont believe in god, but a universal energy;)
honestly some people view being a homosexual as just a sexual fetish;)....
now myself, never having been gay, i can honestly admit i have no insight into it at all.. but i do know that love knows no boundaries, and gender would be one of those..
however, while i also dont have any religious view, im not about to mock another because they believe that in the eyes of their god, its wrong...
you cant please all the people all the time...
while religion has such a strong hold in this country, i think same sex marriage will be off the agenda..
Mathermy
02-08-2009, 10:06
ah you delightfully eloquent being!
Malol, I know it's probably a bit of both...but I personally see them as kind of...mutually exclusive?
I have a hunch that *some* individuals of certain religious groups have similar reservations against civil marriages it's just not openly talked about.
My sister just about died when she heard we were having a civil service, and not in a church :eek: and seemed unable to get her head around it, making references to "rituals" and other ungodly stuff :rolleyes::laughing:
She is pretty young, and was indoctrinated into the church early, but she seemed genuinely confused and a little unsettled by the idea of a civil service.
My guess is that she dislikes the idea almost as much as she dislikes the idea of homosexual civil unions, she just has some other "godly" reasons to be upset about the homosexual ones.
rainbow road
02-08-2009, 10:14
I also want to point out I am not trying to belittle anyone's beliefs or faith or anything, I just am trying to understand some stuff for myself :yes:
Pippi Longstocking
02-08-2009, 10:22
I also want to point out I am not trying to belittle anyone's beliefs or faith or anything, I just am trying to understand some stuff for myself :yes:
Yeah, same here. :iagree: Further, I believe that social change can only happen if there is a dialogue about contentious issues - if we are talking, exploring and challenging ideas, there will be a gradual swell of public outcry and a push for archaic laws to be changed. Consciousness-raising as a form of social activism is certainly valid. :smiliedance:
Opinionated
02-08-2009, 10:45
There was no mention of any supernatural beings at my wedding.
When are we all going to live and let live?
CrankyAndTired
02-08-2009, 10:51
God is definitely part of my marriage :yes: As far as I'm concerned, I made my marriage vows in front of God, and to me they are sacred.
But I think the important point here is that marriage is not just a religious term, its also a legal one. Marriage is a term used by people in all numbers of religions, as well as athiests..
And while I definitely include God in my description of marriage, a lot of people don't - so I think any arguement against gay marriage that involves religion (mine or anyone elses) falls flat..
Sadly I think this one comes down to fear - fear that same sex marriage would radically change our society for the worse.. I happen to think the opposite actually.. I know so many beautiful gay couples who would make wonderful parents, and with so many older children needing foster care/adoption, I really wish that the government would a) give equal rights to all and b) allow any willing loving stable couple to foster and/or adopt..
Mathermy
02-08-2009, 11:00
God is definitely part of my marriage :yes: As far as I'm concerned, I made my marriage vows in front of God, and to me they are sacred.
But I think the important point here is that marriage is not just a religious term, its also a legal one. Marriage is a term used by people in all numbers of religions, as well as athiests..
And while I definitely include God in my description of marriage, a lot of people don't - so I think any arguement against gay marriage that involves religion (mine or anyone elses) falls flat..
Sadly I think this one comes down to fear - fear that same sex marriage would radically change our society for the worse.. I happen to think the opposite actually.. I know so many beautiful gay couples who would make wonderful parents, and with so many older children needing foster care/adoption, I really wish that the government would a) give equal rights to all and b) allow any willing loving stable couple to foster and/or adopt..
I agree Livly and I really appreciate how you can stay true to your beliefs whilst remaining compassionate to others :goodvibes:
This thread should be in the religious stream not social issues. It mean nothing to me socially except as a form of people justifying their hate/wars/prejudices. I avoid the religious stream for this reason. I don't like knocking peoples beliefs as some people truly need them to survive day-to-day. I don't so I would just be insulting towards them.
CrankyAndTired
02-08-2009, 11:06
I agree Livly and I really appreciate how you can stay true to your beliefs whilst remaining compassionate to others :goodvibes:
Thank you muchly Malol! :sunshine:
Ana Gram
02-08-2009, 11:27
Livly, you have a beautiful attitude with this :thumbsup:
I agree Liv..you do have a wonderful attitude! how do we get this across to others is the question?
not knocking anyones belief.. just stating that I don't understand it and stating my own too. It's not like I wouldn't be friendly with someone who has beliefs different to my own...well, not just one anyway! :)
Livly, are you feeling the love? :D
I think that some marriages are based on religion and some aren't and that's OK. If the church isn't already a part of your life, why would you include it in your marriage? The fact that a marriage is not religious doesn't negate it.
I also don't have a problem with gay marriages. I don't understand why gay marriage should be illegal if gay relationships are legal? :confused: (maybe that thought belongs in the other thread :o)
Cheers
Like in the Chaser's when they were asking Americans to help kill his son because Leviticus said if a child speaks out against his father the punishment is death. :yes:
You can't pick and choose what to take literally and what to take metaphorically.
:laughing: I laughed so hard when I saw that ...
asking people to help stone his son to death because he continually cursed his father .. oh funny ... the look on the faces of the americans ... I still giggle
the bible IS very open to interpretation ... which unfortunatly is what the extremists like to do - interpretate as it suits them.
I personaly believe that my god is a loving god. He created each and every person (please note- if you dont believe in god,,... I personally believe he created you - but you can believe what you choose to believe .. :D) .. - which of course means imo .. he created those who love others of the same sex.
There are people out there who believe in god .. who aren't straight (I know .. its shocking) ... and imo .. if they can find a church that will honor their love - and marry them (obviously when its legal) - then I think that would be a truly beautiful thing.
I dont see why gay people cant feel supported in their own church .. they too may have faith .. they too may wish to attend a service.. and they too may want to be united..
I guess .. to me .. its again discriminaton - if they CAN get married - why should they only be allowed to have a civic ceremony??? if they personally want more??
I would love it if the church (any or better yet all) would recognise same sex marriage veve.. but as I think that has about as much chance of happening as Morrigan never giving an opinion (:p) .. I think we should start with changing the legal/civil laws!
I would love it if the church (any or better yet all) would recognise same sex marriage veve.. but as I think that has about as much chance of happening as Morrigan never giving an opinion (:p) .. I think we should start with changing the legal/civil laws!
:laughing: :laughing: ... oh funny Jag
I can dream cant I ??? :p
missie_mack
02-08-2009, 12:46
I think if religion had never crossed into state ie a religious sacrement overlapping into ones legal rights to entitlement, inheritance blah blah that marriage really wouldn't be neccessary and commitment ceremonies would suffice. Pre 1800s marriages were never recorded as part of public records and were exclusively part of a religious ceremony for those of european heritage (I would think the same would be said for other cultures but don't have the knowledge to actually say this is the case)
I don't abide by the book of leviticus and don't really believe that the book says that homosexuality is wrong. I have a protestant bible published about 1900 and the wording is very different to what appears in the bible today and if you go back to the bibles latin readings nor does it. It has come down to the interpretation of what has been written by man that has caused the issues. The thought that God would make people something that he dislikes so greatly is against everything the bible teaches and I do honestly believe that homosexuals are born not cultured by society.
I get really annoyed when people say they abide by the bible to the letter especially when talking about this type of discussion because evidently they haven't taken the time to read what other instructions that are in the book of leviticus. You can't have it both ways either you support and follow the book of leviticus or you don't
I would love it if the church (any or better yet all) would recognise same sex marriage veve.. but as I think that has about as much chance of happening as Morrigan never giving an opinion (:p) .. I think we should start with changing the legal/civil laws!
:laughing: :laughing: ... oh funny Jag
I can dream cant I ??? :p
:( okay
For me it wouldn't have mattered if we married at home, church, registry or the moon. I believe God is everywhere. God isn't "in" my marriage I just believe God witnessed mine. I don't believe marriage has to be religious or about religion just about two people who love eachother and want to commit. If a couple same sex or otherwise want to marry outside a church they should be able to or if they want to marry at a church they should be able to. Getting married outside a church doesn't make it any less real or special.
sockstealingpoltergeist
02-08-2009, 13:26
:( okay
It was just a joke Morrigan. Replace Morrigan with SSP. Same thing.;)
.... either you agree with civil marriage or not.. regardless of the genders of those being married.
:iagree:
I have no problem with same sex marriages. But then I am agnostic.
I think the problem with same sex marriages from a religious point of view is NOT the actual marriage per se, but the fact that most mainstream branches of religion be it Christian, Buddhist, Islam, Hindu, Judaism see homosexuality as either against the natural order of things or against their particular diety's wishes. Sure there are branches in each that embrace everybody, but on the whole most religions are anti homosexuality. Hense any person of any faith may have a hard time agreeing with samesex marriage. Be this right or wrong, people are following what historically has been the teachings of their particular faith. It will take a lot to change such fundimental beliefs.:yes:
HollyHotLips
02-08-2009, 15:14
Personally I dont believe in God so therefore didnt get married in a church and religion plays absolutely no role in our lives whatsoever.
I also dont understand why homosexual people shouldnt be allowed to have a church wedding if they are believers - all this nonsense about it being a sin... :rolleyes:
It reminds me of the Chaser sketch last week when they were asking people to kill his son because he had cursed him, after all it's what it says in the bible, and people were saying it's irrelevant - so how come some bits are irrelevant and some arent?! :confused:
missie_mack
02-08-2009, 15:52
I also dont understand why homosexual people shouldnt be allowed to have a church wedding if they are believers - all this nonsense about it being a sin... :rolleyes:
We do need to remember that homosexuals aren't the only ones not allowed to be married in a church though
We do need to remember that homosexuals aren't the only ones not allowed to be married in a church though
EXACTLY!!
this is not about homophobia it is about respect of faiths.
for those that are saying marriage was done before the church existed.. that is irrelevent as no one has a living memory of that! and therefore it wont affect their fundamentalist feelings on the matter.
I cannot be married in the catholic church because i have already been so and divorced.
I dont expect them to change to accommodate me
i respect that they consider me unworthy for their church and therefore get on with it.
i dont see what the big deal is.
Ana Gram
02-08-2009, 16:15
That point is quite weak as you can still get married outside of the church and it still be legal.
sockstealingpoltergeist
02-08-2009, 16:20
EXACTLY!!
for those that are saying marriage was done before the church existed.. that is irrelevent as no one has a living memory of that! and therefore it wont affect their fundamentalist feelings on the matter..
There is much proof of marriages outside religion. Of course there is proof that ancient civilisations and other societies without christianity or religion had marraiges.
I cannot be married in the catholic church because i have already been so and divorced.
I dont expect them to change to accommodate me
i respect that they consider me unworthy for their church and therefore get on with it.
i dont see what the big deal is.
For the most part people just want homosexuals to be able to marry legaly. Morover not everyone belongs to the catholic church and there are churches that accept homosexual relationships, who would be happy to marry gay people if allowed, I am sure.
I think the whole purpose of todays discussion is to remember that just because our religion or society says it is wrong, as long as it harms no one, then it really is ludicrous to suggest people can't live and marry as they see fit.
Mathermy
02-08-2009, 16:30
Morrrigan is a good egg! :)
okay sorry Malol.. its just very frustrating...
I take it all back... will delete it.. so if you could delete the quotes that would be great.
*have to get a handle on my frustration*
Pippi Longstocking
02-08-2009, 17:27
That point is quite weak as you can still get married outside of the church and it still be legal.
Yep.
Morrigan, I think maybe you're just not understanding what it is that people want because of your own view of what marriage is. For some, it's a religious ceremony. But for others it's about wanting a legally recognised union between two people that love each other. You are automatically entitled to that, regardless of whether it will be a Catholic wedding or not. Others are not awarded that right simply because they happen to love someone of the same sex. People are entitled to be legally wed if they so choose, it has nothing to do with the church. :no:
Mathermy
02-08-2009, 17:28
okay sorry Malol.. its just very frustrating...
I take it all back... will delete it.. so if you could delete the quotes that would be great.
*have to get a handle on my frustration*
Don't be sorry, I'm just being a bossy boots! :laughing:
:hugs: I felt frustrated (in a different thread) today too.. but I just logged off for a little while :o I really just wanna try and be good, but if you be bad then I'll wanna be bad and soon enough we will all be bad and then..well I dunno but it would be kind of a shame yanno?
Yep.
Morrigan, I think maybe you're just not understanding what it is that people want because of your own view of what marriage is. For some, it's a religious ceremony. But for others it's about wanting a legally recognised union between two people that love each other. You are automatically entitled to that, regardless of whether it will be a Catholic wedding or not. Others are not awarded that right simply because they happen to love someone of the same sex. People are entitled to be legally wed if they so choose, it has nothing to do with the church. :no:
No I get it.. I respect the fact that some homosexuals want to marry.. to a degree I also believe that as citizens of a democracy it should be available as well to them. and its almost criminal to deny, law abiding citizens the right to marriage.. I get it
Its any expectation of a church marriage I guess I dont accept
If I cant have one, why should a homosexual.. we are both 'sinners' apparently..
I am all for reform as well. if if didnt have reform people would still be being burnt at the stake!
what makes me feel emotional is the severe religious lessons I was exposed to as a child and over the years everything seems to not matter anymore
I am a bit raw because my daughter recently did her sacraments of confirmation and communion and the reverence and importance of these things, which were once considered so very deep and meaningful, are now just a joke the way they are done!
Its sad to see how many years of indoctrination i was exposed to as a child being whittled away and now having to try to find some meaning in it all..
what was the point of wasting my time?
:gloomy:
:( okay
sorry to upset you Morri :o .. just a joke. promise :shakehands:
just trying to think of one thing I could never see happening.. and you never again giving your opinion sprang to mind! (good thing too.. the hub would be poorer if you didn't!)
I should have used SSP in my joke! :p
Mathermy
02-08-2009, 19:09
sorry to upset you Morri :o .. just a joke. promise :shakehands:
just trying to think of one thing I could never see happening.. and you never again giving your opinion sprang to mind! (good thing too.. the hub would be poorer if you didn't!)
I should have used SSP in my joke! :p
Or me! :D ---exhibit A.
mumof2brats
02-08-2009, 19:10
Good question, I know our marriage will be betwwen me an DF alone!! 3somes never work :laughing:
:laughing::laughing::laughing:
A Party of Five
04-08-2009, 13:51
This is a really good question and is demanding some though. Any marriage that is joined without God in it, is still a marriage and recognized by the laws of the land. However, only a marriage between a man and a woman is recognized in the bible as being joined together by God. I believe this is why so many Gay couples do not want a civil union. They want their marriage to be recognized as blessed by God and that is just not going to happen.
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