View Full Version : Why do people choose not to vax?
Lily_Pad
25-07-2009, 11:31
I am honestly curious.
I come from a family of vaxxers and I honestly never would have known that people don't vaccinate if it weren't for bubhub.
I just thought it was the done thing these days.
I don't know why parents wouldn't want to protect their children from diseases that you can prevent?
If you use the Search function up the top you can find many other threads that will answer you question. :)
workin'mumof2
25-07-2009, 12:41
because there are babies and children who react very severly from these "safe" vaccines. go through the threads to read them. there are plenty.;)
Fuchsia!
25-07-2009, 15:46
Lots of reasons :)
I will come back later
Lillynix
25-07-2009, 20:37
*shrugs* I'm so totally over giving my reasons as to why I don't vaxx, so i'm simply going to say...
"Because I don't have to and I don't want to which is my right as a well educated, well informed mother being concerned for her children and their health"
:)
Lily_Pad
25-07-2009, 21:00
*shrugs* I'm so totally over giving my reasons as to why I don't vaxx, so i'm simply going to say...
"Because I don't have to and I don't want to which is my right as a well educated, well informed mother being concerned for her children and their health"
:)
But I actually wanted to learn about the reasons that made you decide not to vax - I mean the medical reasons. I wasn't after a debate, sorry if it came across that way.
Lillynix
25-07-2009, 21:07
That's cool, I didn't think you were after a debate, it's just it's been mentioned SO often already I can't be bothered doing it again :o
You can search the vaxx forum for previous threads, should give you some nice results, i'll have a look and grab some links for you :)
Edit - Here's three different threads on the same subject :)
http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=254031&highlight=reasons
http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=243908&highlight=reasons
http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=207583&highlight=reasons
Lily_Pad
25-07-2009, 21:21
That's cool, I didn't think you were after a debate, it's just it's been mentioned SO often already I can't be bothered doing it again :o
You can search the vaxx forum for previous threads, should give you some nice results, i'll have a look and grab some links for you :)
Edit - Here's three different threads on the same subject :)
http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=254031&highlight=reasons
http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=243908&highlight=reasons
http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=207583&highlight=reasons
Thanks for that :) I'll give them a read in the morning :)
*shrugs* I'm so totally over giving my reasons as to why I don't vaxx, so i'm simply going to say...
"Because I don't have to and I don't want to which is my right as a well educated, well informed mother being concerned for her children and their health"
:)
I am very much a pro vaxxer, but I never used to be.. that was until my daughter was left disabled from suffering complications associated with chicken pox,:( this so called mild disease was running rampant when my dd got it, there was no vaccine back then and there were so many kids who had it..but now I am right up there with all those people flogging off the benefits of immunisations, and I feel that dragonfly's post has summed it up for most non vaxers.:yes:
Fuchsia!
26-07-2009, 12:32
I am very much a pro vaxxer, but I never used to be.. that was until my daughter was left disabled from suffering complications associated with chicken pox,:( this so called mild disease was running rampant when my dd got it, there was no vaccine back then and there were so many kids who had it..but now I am right up there with all those people flogging off the benefits of immunisations, and I feel that dragonfly's post has summed it up for most non vaxers.:yes:
I agree, most non vaxxers are well educated and very informed and care deeply for their children and their health :D
missie_mack
26-07-2009, 12:37
Its just one of those questions that varies from person to person... just like
Why do some people vaccinate/medicate their child without any real knowledge of what the medication and its effects are simply because everyone else does?
Fuchsia!
26-07-2009, 12:38
Its just one of those questions that varies from person to person... just like
Why do some people vaccinate/medicate their child without any real knowledge of what the medication and its effects are simply because everyone else does?
:iagree:
We have 3 boys and the youngest is unvaxed.
we decided not to vaccinate anymore because of...
* lack of evidence as to the saftey of vaccines
* lack of proof as to the need for vaccines.
* ingredients in vaccines
* information on the diseases, eg. how you get them, how you treat them, stats on the diseases etc etc
You could do some research into it and maybe make up your own mind.
just be wary of shonky info from both sides.
Try to look further then the limited info on "WHO" and some govt sites.
also look at the history of the diseases before vaccination.
i was pro vax before i researched vaccination and research changed that.
IMO the facts speak for themselves.
Cheers
Scott
I agree, most non vaxxers are well educated and very informed and care deeply for their children and their health :D
I do know some non vaxers who are very uneducated and lazy and dont care about their kids health,:yes:
and like the non vaxers us pro vaxers care about our kids health as well, thats why we vax in the hope that these diseases will eventually die out.
Also I am probably uneducated to the point where I never thought that I would have a disabled dd all because of my stupidity.:crying:
Its not stupidity on your part, there wasnt a vaccine you could have given??
Fuchsia!
26-07-2009, 18:40
I do know some non vaxers who are very uneducated and lazy and dont care about their kids health,
Yep same as a huge porportion of vaxxers who are uneducated and don't really care either and just follow the leader
How long is a peice of string?
You will get as many answers as there are non-vaxxers :)
I do know some non vaxers who are very uneducated and lazy and dont care about their kids health,:yes:
and like the non vaxers us pro vaxers care about our kids health as well, thats why we vax in the hope that these diseases will eventually die out.
Also I am probably uneducated to the point where I never thought that I would have a disabled dd all because of my stupidity.:crying:
You've made it clear many times that there was no CP vax when your DD got it, so how can you say your DD caught it because of your stupidity:confused: Nothing you could've done any differently is there? Just horrendously bad luck and fortunately very rare.
Lily_Pad
27-07-2009, 08:01
Its just one of those questions that varies from person to person... just like
Why do some people vaccinate/medicate their child without any real knowledge of what the medication and its effects are simply because everyone else does?
Like I said I don't know much about vaccinations thats true, but as for folowing the leader... it has been done for so long and for so many children, and recommended to be done by so many health professionals, that I didn't question it.
I am asking for knowledge now though.
Yep same as a huge porportion of vaxxers who are uneducated and don't really care either and just follow the leader
Maybe uneducated, but for me it's definitely not because I don't care. My daughter has already been very, very sick in her little life - we nearly lost her - so when I'm told she's going to be protected from some horribe diseases I want that to happen.
before we continue to bite each other over this lets just say that some vaxers and antivaxers are educated, some are not. Some belive some amazingly silly things, some do not. Some follow their leader in vaxing or notvaxing.
I'm pro choice for vaxing. That means that I think you should be very well infomed on both sides of the issue before you choose.
we decided not to vaccinate anymore because of...
* lack of evidence as to the saftey of vaccines
Its about risks really. 1.5% of children vaccinated get a sever adverse reaction requiring medical care. Some will have local swelling at the needle site and or other side effects. Ask your doctor for an info sheet on the mild side effects.
The risk is 1.5% for serious complications, but the benefit is protection from some serious kick *** diseases.
* lack of proof as to the need for vaccines.True, in Australia many of the horrible diseases have been nearly eradicated and your chances of getting, say, polio are small. the thing is that people travel overseas all of the time and some of these diseases that the vaccines protect you from are contagious and virulent.
Some diseases are making a come back. Don't trust anyone who tells you that a good diet and plenty of love etc are all you need to prevent whooping cough and other vaxable diseases.
I've seen a child die from whooping cough, it took weeks. The parents (freinds of mine from way back) are still dealing with "friends" who give them this line and are essentially saying they didn't care well enough for their baby.
Surely there is a reason that people in developing contries where these diseases are prevelant line up, some times for days, to access these vaccines for their children. They're on the front line and see what happens to those who don't get vaxed.
* information on the diseases, eg. how you get them, how you treat them, stats on the diseases etc etcI'm not sure what the point above is about? Some diseases can be avoided by not kissing/shareing saliva etc but most are transmited like the flu or worse. Some are so viralent that if you are in the same room as the infected person you have a 80% chance of getting it. I was re-reading the vax section in Kid Wrangling. Can't remember the disease, will have to look it up.
Another eg, The anti cervical cancer vax that you can get these days is a vaccination against a virus that is spread like the flu, very hard to avoid, but most people still seem to think that wearing a condom is enough.
phew.
Ok, thats said if you have a bub in the 1.5% of adverse reactions that are serious it is so very very serious it could mean permentat harm is done. it's all about risks. A good firend of mine is not vaxing because her hubby had a hugly sevear reaction as a bb to vax.
you can't predict the future you can only prepare against it and hope. Which way you do that is up to you.
You've made it clear many times that there was no CP vax when your DD got it, so how can you say your DD caught it because of your stupidity:confused: Nothing you could've done any differently is there? Just horrendously bad luck and fortunately very rare.
And sorry to sound harsh Harriet, but I will keep on yelling from the roof tops with every ounce of energy that I have that I have experienced these diseases first hand, because there may be someone who comes on here for the first time and be unaware that it can/does happen, I was unaware Harriet that a child could become so sick and I know that most non vaxers on here were unaware as well, so you will all just have to put up with me...:D:p:)
Lily_Pad
27-07-2009, 11:05
The risk is 1.5% for serious complications, but the benefit is protection from some serious kick *** diseases.
That's what I think too. As far as I can see, the benefits outweigh the risks.
Thanks for your post wocket :)
Jazzah, what happened to your daughter?
[QUOTE=wocket;3935787]
Its about risks really. 1.5% of children vaccinated get a sever adverse reaction requiring medical care. Some will have local swelling at the needle site and or other side effects. Ask your doctor for an info sheet on the mild side effects.
The risk is 1.5% for serious complications, but the benefit is protection from some serious kick *** diseases.
I can't help questioning these stats though (not you Wocket, just this point in general). How can the adverse reaction stats be correct when serious reactions are so often not reported, or put down to co-incidence? And we have no transparent adverse reaction register. Just find that a bit concerning.
Another eg, The anti cervical cancer vax that you can get these days is a vaccination against a virus that is spread like the flu, very hard to avoid, but most people still seem to think that wearing a condom is enough.
Actually, HPV is a sexually transmitted disease so a condom probably would do the trick in most cases:D
[QUOTE=wocket;3935787]
Another eg, The anti cervical cancer vax that you can get these days is a vaccination against a virus that is spread like the flu, very hard to avoid, but most people still seem to think that wearing a condom is enough.
Actually, HPV is a sexually transmitted disease so a condom probably would do the trick in most cases:D
Actually, i'm pretty sure a condom wouldnt do the trick. Often condoms arent put on till the last minute....there has already been plenty of skin-to-skin genital contact and therefore the virus can transmit this way. Its not like HIV which its transmitted through bodily fluids.
[QUOTE=Harriet;3936202]
Actually, i'm pretty sure a condom wouldnt do the trick. Often condoms arent put on till the last minute....there has already been plenty of skin-to-skin genital contact and therefore the virus can transmit this way. Its not like HIV which its transmitted through bodily fluids.
:iagree: when i say like the flu i mean the transmission of tiny body fluid particles. The flu is transmited by tiny splatters of mucus/saliva inadvertadly making its way to your mouth/eyes either through particles in the air on a crowded bus or someone wiping their nose with a hand, touching a railing then someone else touching that railing shortly after and bringing their fingers to eyes/mouth.
That's what I think too. As far as I can see, the benefits outweigh the risks.
Thanks for your post wocket :)
Jazzah, what happened to your daughter?
Hi, my now 10yr old dd suffered life threatening complications from chicken pox when she was 1yr old, she spent quite a few wks in hospital some time of that on life support, and we got told several times that she wouldn't make it, but she did and is disabled, she is blind and requires constant care, there was no cp vax back then and cp was rampant in my community at the time, so now I am a very big supporter of vaccines.:D
to me they save lives:yelclap:
[QUOTE=Harriet;3936202]
Actually, i'm pretty sure a condom wouldnt do the trick. Often condoms arent put on till the last minute....there has already been plenty of skin-to-skin genital contact and therefore the virus can transmit this way. Its not like HIV which its transmitted through bodily fluids.
Of course! I was just making the point that it can't be "spread like the flu":o
[QUOTE=nala777;3938172]
:iagree: when i say like the flu i mean the transmission of tiny body fluid particles. The flu is transmited by tiny splatters of mucus/saliva inadvertadly making its way to your mouth/eyes either through particles in the air on a crowded bus or someone wiping their nose with a hand, touching a railing then someone else touching that railing shortly after and bringing their fingers to eyes/mouth.
Hmmm pretty sure you can't catch HPV through coughs or sneezes like the flu....it's an STD, and yes my comment about the condom was tongue in cheek:) Of course it can be transmitted by skin to skin contact......but I don't feel it's as easy to contract as touching railing in a public place;) I guess anything's possible though:o
no, i guess I should have been more specific. i mean the tiny body fluid particles part of the transmission is simmilar to the flu, not the catching it on a bus..unless you're on a rather exciting bus trip. lol.
Sorry, I'm overtired and not explaining things right. in the end we're just splitting hairs anyway.
:)
Its about risks really. 1.5% of children vaccinated get a sever adverse reaction requiring medical care.
The risk is 1.5% for serious complications, but the benefit is protection from some serious kick *** diseases.
Where are the studies to prove vaccine safety...?
can you post them up for us??
Some diseases are making a come back.
which ones? can you show medical proof that they are or is that just hear say???
Surely there is a reason that people in developing contries where these diseases are prevelant line up, some times for days, to access these vaccines for their children. They're on the front line and see what happens to those who don't get vaxed.
hmmmm. bit hard to compare what happens in a developing country to us. its such a vast difference in every aspect.
what access do they have to factual forthcomming information?, what are the health differences etc etc , what chance do they get to make an informed choice????
information on the diseases, eg. how you get them, how you treat them, stats on the diseases etc etc
I'm not sure what the point above is about? Some diseases can be avoided by not kissing/shareing saliva etc but most are transmited like the flu or worse. Some are so viralent that if you are in the same room as the infected person you have a 80% chance of getting it. I was re-reading the vax section in Kid Wrangling. Can't remember the disease, will have to look it up.
to explain.. we researched these with each VPD ,
*how you get it
* what are the chances of getting it,
* what it does if you get it,
*how common are servere effects of the disease in a healthy person,,
* how is it treated,
* the australian stats on the disease,
* mortality rates of the disease,
*what vaccine is used,
* vaccine side effects
*vaccine components,
*how efficient is the vaccine,
* what non vaccine protection is available
based on all the info we could find we would make a decision on each vpd.
hope that explains better.
I am not actually sure what point your making to be honest. i was answering the OP question and you are quoting statistics for a disease you cant remeber in a section of kid wrangling.
her hubby had a hugly sevear reaction as a bb to vax.
this just cannot be possible as bubhub has already past the ammount of vaccine reaction cases that are statiscally possible.... unless of course the pro vax figures are wrong.:laughing:
.
hi, does anyone know where one can find a list of ingredients in the common childhood vaccinations? I'm really interested to see if there is mercury present and if so, in what sort of dosage. It will be interesting to see what sort of chemicals are put in them. Does anyone know if there is a register or something?
Fuchsia!
29-07-2009, 17:33
hi, does anyone know where one can find a list of ingredients in the common childhood vaccinations? I'm really interested to see if there is mercury present and if so, in what sort of dosage. It will be interesting to see what sort of chemicals are put in them. Does anyone know if there is a register or something?
http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/184_04_200206/eld10500_fm.html#0_elementId-1096308
You best bet is to find the packet insert for each individual vaccine.
If you start a new thread i can try and help you find them
Scott g, it would take a serious amount of time and energy to trawl through all of the medical literature that backs these things up, put them into a readable format rather than medical jargon and provide a comprehensive argument. I'm not going to do it because quite frankly I don't have 6 months or more to spare to give you a suitably referenced academic document...
...but I have done my reading. I'm not a scare monger for either side, even if it may seem that way at times.
If you can get access to the scholarly journals and their articles etc through a university account or pay for them (but what has $1000's of dollars to spare? not me, so I use my uni account). if you don't have a uni account I'm sure you must know someone who does. It's important to note that they have been peer reviewed and are not something a journalist can schlocked together in an evening. very few are actually funded by drug companies. that comes latter, once they are proven.
i admit that the kaz Cook kid Wrangling reference is a bit out of left field, in fact it's the only bit of pop culture i've refered to in all of my research on this subject. i've misplaced the book, but it has a great section on vaccines (I'm afraid that it's in the pro camp) but it does list a whole bunch of these diseases and how you would go about catching them.
As for your comment about my friends husband, are you trying to be offensive and telling me he dosn't have this problem? perhaps i'm being to sensitive. I guess it brings forward the question of what a sevear reaction is. most medical journals refer to it being life threatening or requiring hospitalization. many of the negative reactions talked about on bub hub and other places don't fit that category, though they are distressing for all involved.
Edited: Actually I've just rechecked the figures and it is one or two in a million react this way, not the 1.5% I quoted earlier. opps.
Sorry Scott, i just don't have the time to be as detailed as you like. bub is teething.
hmmmm. bit hard to compare what happens in a developing country to us. its such a vast difference in every aspect.
true in terms of socio-echonomic health etc but disease, whatever it is dosn't leave you alone just because your a rich white westerner.The risks are higher in many of these countries because few people vax, so the diseases are more prevalent.
But then again it also, by the same logic, it can't increase your chances at having a sever reaction either, unless ome other reason has already made you very very ill.
See, i can be in both camps at once.
:o
Where are the studies to prove vaccine safety...?
can you post them up for us??
which ones? can you show medical proof that they are or is that just hear say???
hmmmm. bit hard to compare what happens in a developing country to us. its such a vast difference in every aspect.
what access do they have to factual forthcomming information?, what are the health differences etc etc , what chance do they get to make an informed choice????
to explain.. we researched these with each VPD ,
*how you get it
* what are the chances of getting it,
* what it does if you get it,
*how common are servere effects of the disease in a healthy person,,
* how is it treated,
* the australian stats on the disease,
* mortality rates of the disease,
*what vaccine is used,
* vaccine side effects
*vaccine components,
*how efficient is the vaccine,
* what non vaccine protection is available
based on all the info we could find we would make a decision on each vpd.
hope that explains better.
I am not actually sure what point your making to be honest. i was answering the OP question and you are quoting statistics for a disease you cant remeber in a section of kid wrangling.
this just cannot be possible as bubhub has already past the ammount of vaccine reaction cases that are statiscally possible.... unless of course the pro vax figures are wrong.:laughing:
.
I don't pretend to be an expert but I thought this would make interesting reading and lots of people have asked about safety...
0.96 people per 100,000 immunisation have a serious reaction requiring hospitalisation, long term disability or death
They attributed only 1 death in 1.9 billion vaccinations given over a 10 year period (all deaths post vaccination are investigated). Most cases of death were temporally rather than causally related when investigated thoroughly
Death and serious injury due to road traffic accidents in Australia
Approx 250 hospitalisations per 100,000 each year
Approx 8 deaths per 100,000 each year
Diseases over a 3 year period 2002-2005 in Australia
Pneumococcal hospitalisations
age 0-4 36.8 per 100,000
total all ages 16 per 100,000
Varicella hospitalisations
age 0-4 42.1 per 100,000
total all ages 7.2 per 100,000
Pertussis hospitalistions
age 0-4 20.1 per 100,000
total all ages 2.2 per 100,000
Congenital rubella syndrome rates Western Australia (couldn't find Australia wide data)
200 babies per 100,000 live births
Hope this is helpful for some people out there...
References
MMWR (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/PDF/ss/ss5201.pdf): Surveillance for Safety Following Immunization: Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS)—United States, 1991-2001. January 24, 2003/Vol. 52/No. SS-1; pp. 1-28.
Australian statistics from the department of health and ageing.
http://www.health.gov.au/
Congenital rubella syndrome in Western Australia
Journal of paediatrics and Child Health 2008
Volume 21 Issue 2 (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/120034349/issue), Pages 111 - 114
Scott g, it would take a serious amount of time and energy to trawl through all of the medical literature that backs these things up, put them into a readable format rather than medical jargon and provide a comprehensive argument. I'm not going to do it because quite frankly I don't have 6 months or more to spare to give you a suitably referenced academic document...
Sorry Scott, i just don't have the time to be as detailed as you like. bub is teething.
thats understandable i just think we should reference or link what we quote. otherewise it really could have come from anywhere and could be miss leading if actually not correct.
As for your comment about my friends husband, are you trying to be offensive and telling me he dosn't have this problem? perhaps i'm being to sensitive. I guess it brings forward the question of what a sevear reaction is. most medical journals refer to it being life threatening or requiring hospitalization. many of the negative reactions talked about on bub hub and other places don't fit that category, though they are distressing for all involved.
sorry if i seemed offensive in anyway, it was not intended. I was just saying that if the figures for vax reaction are correct we shouldnt be reading so many servere reactions mentioned in posts on so many forums.
.
References
MMWR (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/PDF/ss/ss5201.pdf): Surveillance for Safety Following Immunization: Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS)—United States, 1991-2001. January 24, 2003/Vol. 52/No. SS-1; pp. 1-28.
thanks for the links..
i thought that some of the rates for serious reactions and deaths in table 9 were quite interesting.
I also thought the over all % of the reported reactions that were classed as servere was higher then i expected..
Cheers
Scott
stepmum1
30-07-2009, 13:03
They attributed only 1 death in 1.9 billion vaccinations given over a 10 year period (all deaths post vaccination are investigated). Most cases of death were temporally rather than causally related when investigated thoroughly
Just throwing this out there but "all deaths post vaccination are investigate" only if death occurs within 48 hours of being vaccinated otherwise it gets written down as not relevant. There have been a huge amount of research done in Japan that linked SIDS to the recently vaccinated hence why the Japanese schedule now starts at 2 years of age.
Congenital rubella syndrome rates Western Australia (couldn't find Australia wide data)
200 babies per 100,000 live births
When I was researching rubella and the risks on pregnancy the stats that I got were shocking in relation to all women that have been knowingly exposed to rubella whilst pregnant are offered a termination. 95% of women choose this option. So if your stat above is correct it is only worked out of the 5% of women that continue their pregnancy after being knowingly exposed to rubella.
Another thought I had on 3rd world countires and their people lining up for vaccines..........the people from these countries also line up for formula when they have breasts. MARKETING ANYONE??
Protecting my children by not vaxxing.
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