View Full Version : Am I being over protective?
Boobycino
20-07-2009, 20:47
I just noticed that I kind of got unreasonably annoyed with someone in a thread on there for making a totally completely innocent comment about a couple of muslim children. I was really annoyed that she made the clarification that they were muslim... and I had to take myself back for a moment and think about why that would upset me. Like... really rile me up - even though I'll always word things in a diplomatic way, it still really got under my skin for some reason.
At a quick analysis I thought maybe I'm defensive because quite a few people assume my DP is muslim. He has a lebanese background, with quite arabic features, he's an aussie guy though.
There are a few little things that with him, its been kind of funny, like each and every single time we fly on an areoplane my DP is "randomly" bomb tested. Randomly my bum! Randomly... as in... hey, you look arabic, you're MUCH more likely to be a terrorist. My DP laughs it off though, he thinks its funny. I've also thought it was funny in the past, but now it really bugs me.
Also, my L plates currently have been grafettied to say "Lebo" on them, which has REALLY upset me. ****ed me off quite a lot.
And I think I just realised why I'm so annoyed. I'm defensive of my DP naturally, but I would hate so much if my son, because he looks like his daddy. I am so glad that he's blonde with blue eyes though - and I am glad because I think he'll be treated differently because of it. Which is so wrong, but I think its true.
But then what about when we have more children, what if our next boy has dark hair and dark eyes and looks very arabic and then someone makes a comment about him being muslim in a derogative way, I'd see red.
I'm probably over reacting, none of this has happened yet.
sockstealingpoltergeist
20-07-2009, 20:49
Racism is rife in Australia. :hugs: It sucks, and it is a great shame to our country IMO.
Racism is rife in Australia. :hugs: It sucks, and it is a great shame to our country IMO.
:iagree:
My friend, who is white and married to an aboriginal man, said to me the other day......"I hate it when people think my husband is aboriginal....." :no:
No I don't think you are.
It annoys me that people think all muslims are bad people when I am sure they don't even know any muslims anyway :no:
I also think it's so true about people judging by appearances.
My mum was born in eastern Europe, she couldn't speak the language when she arrived and my grandfather spoke broken english. Yet people don't say anything to us because we "look" Australian. I have blonde hair and blue eyes but I think I would have been treated very differently if my mum was born in China and I looked Asian.
:iagree:
My friend, who is white and married to an aboriginal man, said to me the other day......"I hate it when people think my husband is aboriginal....." :no:
:eek:
I completely understand why somebody who (as the cliche goes) is of "Middle Eastern appearance" would be defensive.
People make all sorts of presumptions based on race.
It also annoys me when people specify somebody's race in a story for no reason (except, perhaps, to disparage them).
It also annoys me when people specify somebody's race in a story for no reason (except, perhaps, to disparage them).
Do you mean what I said? :o
Do you mean what I said? :o
Oh no. I'm too self absorbed to read other people's comments.:D
But, no, more the OP's comments, and I was just thinking about all the times I've noticed when people specify the race of people when they're up to no good.
I rarely hear people say, "oh, there was a group of caucasions hanging around at the train station".
ETA: i just re-read your comment. It specified race for the purpose of the story. It's offensive when it's not relevant.
OH good, just checking :o
I agree with you.
sockstealingpoltergeist
20-07-2009, 21:03
Oh no. I'm too self absorbed to read other people's comments.:D
But, no, more the OP's comments, and I was just thinking about all the times I've noticed when people specify the race of people when they're up to no good.
I rarely hear people say, "oh, there was a group of caucasions hanging around at the train station".
:iagree: never happens. It is usually only used to put people down.
Mathermy
20-07-2009, 21:04
It also annoys me when people specify somebody's race in a story for no reason (except, perhaps, to disparage them).
:yes: me too!
Poppetfish
20-07-2009, 21:09
:iagree: never happens. It is usually only used to put people down.
No it doesn't.
If i said there were some skin heads down at the station it would be derogatory because i was using a derogatory term for a group of people.
If i said there were some hare krishna's down at the station, it is different. FYI.
It is people pre-conseptions to a label of people that makes it offensive in their eyes.
MumNeedsCoffee
20-07-2009, 21:12
Totally understand what you're saying.
I'm Australian but my mother is Asian. To some people I look Asian and to others I don't.
Sometimes people say the most stupid ignorant things.
I work in a call centre and a guy spent 20 minutes raving on to me about how stupid asian people are and they don't understand anything until finally he said to me "Don't you agree that all asians are stupid", to which my response was "I can't answer that question for you sir because I am Asian".
We live in a very multi-cultural society and you would think we would not have such racism issues in Australia.
No it doesn't.
If i said there were some skin heads down at the station it would be derogatory because i was using a derogatory term for a group of people.
If i said there were some hare krishna's down at the station, it is different. FYI.
It is people pre-conseptions to a label of people that makes it offensive in their eyes.
Perhaps you're a particularly descriptive person.
But I've noticed it a lot from people who are certainly not merely being descriptive.
You don't have to use a derogatory expression to be racist. Highlighting race when talking about the negative behaviour of people is associating that race with the negative behaviour.
Sorry, I have to take the baby to bed. Hopefully somebody else can articulate my point better.:o:D
I love JJJ
20-07-2009, 21:21
My husband also has Arabic features but he has maybe been tested once for bombs whereas I have been tested all bar once and I have and do fly alot.
My husband actually asked the guy doing the tests one day what their indicators are and he said that they just have to make sure they test so many people per hour.
I tend to agree that's right cause I am not dark and until recently my hair was platinum blonde.
Actually I have a friend whose mother works at an airport. Might have to ask her :detective:.
Poppetfish
20-07-2009, 21:23
I know this whole thread is directed at me. I said "There were two muslim children playing soccer. They were maybe 8 yrs old."
I think saying that they were muslim was relevant because they had headscarfs on and i couldn't pick their age because of it.
I am so RACIST!!!!!:p
Poppetfish
20-07-2009, 21:25
My husband also has Arabic features but he has maybe been tested once for bombs whereas I have been tested all bar once and I have and do fly alot.
My husband actually asked the guy doing the tests one day what their indicators are and he said that they just have to make sure they test so many people per hour.
I tend to agree that's right cause I am not dark and until recently my hair was platinum blonde.
Actually I have a friend whose mother works at an airport. Might have to ask her :detective:.
I used to work at an airport and ETD (explosive trace detection) was one of my jobs.
The rule is that after you finish testing someone, you must pick the next person who comes past you.:)
You know what I think is REALLY sad - that we are one of the ONLY 1st world countries that dont embrace our traditional heritage indigenous language/culture in our schools.
Sure we do a unit on aborigines with some half hearted dot paintings etc.
But in countries like South Africa it is COMPULSARY for students as young as Grade 3 to learn a native language. Perhaps thats why indigenous languages have been lost, because we dont embrace or value them.
Sorry to side track a bit but I think the point I am trying to make is that if there was more of a focus on culture and diversity in the education system right from the start of primary school then we might raise more tolerant and aware members of society which would in turn, hopefully, result in less racism.
JMO! :)
I love JJJ
20-07-2009, 21:35
You know what I think is REALLY sad - that we are one of the ONLY 1st world countries that dont embrace our traditional heritage indigenous language/culture in our schools.
Sure we do a unit on aborigines with some half hearted dot paintings etc.
But in countries like South Africa it is COMPULSARY for students as young as Grade 3 to learn a native language. Perhaps thats why indigenous languages have been lost, because we dont embrace or value them.
Sorry to side track a bit but I think the point I am trying to make is that if there was more of a focus on culture and diversity in the education system right from the start of primary school then we might raise more tolerant and aware members of society which would in turn, hopefully, result in less racism.
JMO! :)
I:iagree:NZ is a great positive example.
ManekiNeko
20-07-2009, 21:59
My DP looked particularly arabic when he had a beard. He had osama comments yelled at him on the streets, bomb tested and even had security follow him at the airport. I guess you could say that was because he is heavily tattooed but it didn't happen to his other caucasian looking heavily tattooed friends. Thing is he is caucasian so I guess I agree with the op about looks mattering in wether or not you will encounter racism.
My DD could pass for a number of races because of her dark olive skin, dark eyes and hair. I have heard Islander, Aboriginal, Italian, Mexican, Spanish etc never caucasian though and she is actually 3/4 caucasian and 1/4 asian. My DS on the other hand has pale skin , blonde hair and blue eyes they both have the same father but I am constantly asked if they have different Dads. I am not stupid though I know I am going to have to explain why ppl are cruel to DD because of the way she looks but I won't have to to DS in terms of racism. Sad but true.
BabelFish
20-07-2009, 22:16
I think it depends. Just mentioning that someone is Muslim (for example) doesn't automatically make it a racist statement. In fact, people who assume that ANY mention of race is racist are the ones with the problem, it seems to me. THEY are the ones looking for an agenda where there probably isn't one. THEY are the ones making the assumption that mentioning race automatically means you are disparaging it. THEY are the ones who appear to have a problem with someone being referred to by their race.
Like others, it annoys me NO end when I hear race being mentioned in a derogatory fashion when it's completely unnecessary. It happens on the commercial news ALL the time (especially Channel 7 - they are the worst). And it happens especially with Aboriginal or Muslim people. It's SO unfair.
But to mention someone's cultural differences is not, by default, a racist thing to do. People are so scared of any kind of differences at all these days (racial, gender, sexual preference) or whatever that our language is peppered with oversensitive euphemisms and idiotic avoidances - since when has difference of culture been a bad thing? Or something to be afraid of acknowledging?
It's a fine line, and in many cases people are very carelessly and often unconsciously racist. But yes, I think in general people in society are WAY too oversensitive about a lot of things, and tend to look for things to get offended by, instead of being a little more easygoing and giving others the benefit of the doubt.
That kind of hypersensitivity is just as judgemental in it's own way.
I saw a really awful case of racism the other day - three teenage (caucasian ;p) teenagers yelled out "terrorist" at a woman in a hijab in our local shopping centre. Not only did it take three of them - what big strong men they must be grrr - they yelled it at her *back* after she had walked past them.
racism and cowardice - alive and strong in my town :(
telling them off had no effect, they didn't care, but bloody hell i wish I'd thought to get their names and reported it to the police.... was too angry to think of it at the time
BabelFish
20-07-2009, 22:37
That's just so unfair and unkind. What are people teaching their kids nowadays?
My best friend was born in the Philippines, although she was raised here and is as `Australian' as I am. Anyway, there is a university in Perth called UWA, and there are a lot of Asian students there. (I have a point!). Several years ago my best friend and I were at a party, and a complete stranger walked up to her and said `what are you doing here? Shouldn't you be at UWA??'.
My jaw literally dropped. I honestly could not think of a thing to say (and that is NOT like me).
What is WITH some people? How do you just walk up to a complete stranger and say something so bloody rude and horrible right to their face? With absolutely no shame at all? She is used to it and just shrugged it off, but really, I was so mad I was almost in tears. Why should she HAVE to be used to treatment like that?
Mummaholic
20-07-2009, 22:42
Racism is rife in Australia. :hugs: It sucks, and it is a great shame to our country IMO.
:iagree:
if you are proud and happy with your heritage what does it matter what anyone thinks?
BabelFish
20-07-2009, 22:47
Originally Posted by sockstealingpoltergeist
Racism is rife in Australia. It sucks, and it is a great shame to our country IMO.
:iagree:
Just another proud legacy of the Howard government :rolleyes:
sockstealingpoltergeist
20-07-2009, 22:48
if you are proud and happy with your heritage what does it matter what anyone thinks?
You're right, when people are constantly racist, and it effects your life chances and you are bullied because of it, what does it matter?:rolleyes:
when you or your children, or anyone you know (and even those you don't) are bullied, harrassed, insulted, attacked, treated as less than human because of what other people think about your heritage, then what other people think matters.
BabelFish
20-07-2009, 22:52
Indeed. Unfortunately if you are met with unconscious and endemic racism everywhere you turn, how proud you are of your own culture doesn't really come into it. It might give you a bit more confidence and self-esteem to deal with it - but the point is, you shouldn't have to.
I forgot - you know what my particular favourite is? When I see bumper stickers on cars that state `If you don't love it, leave!' printed over our proud Australian flag :barf:
.
I forgot - you know what my particular favourite is? When I see bumper stickers on cars that state `If you don't love it, leave!' printed over our proud Australian flag :barf:
:laughing: yes, and pointing out the irony in that one usually gets a blank look :rolleyes:
I've even heard someone say that about Aboriginal people "If they don't like what we give them, they should just go back to where they came from!" :footinmouth:
BabelFish
20-07-2009, 22:57
But ... but ... if we give them anything all they're going to want is more! And don't forget all that compensation they'll try to suck out of us.
misskittyfantastico
20-07-2009, 23:00
Indeed. Unfortunately if you are met with unconscious and endemic racism everywhere you turn, how proud you are of your own culture doesn't really come into it. It might give you a bit more confidence and self-esteem to deal with it - but the point is, you shouldn't have to.
I forgot - you know what my particular favourite is? When I see bumper stickers on cars that state `If you don't love it, leave!' printed over our proud Australian flag :barf:
I hate that sticker and I think our flag is a joke. We are an incredibly racist nation.
BabelFish
20-07-2009, 23:07
I feel like, also, that I see an inordinately HUGE amount of Southern Cross or Australian Flag tattoos on young people - you know, in their early 20s.
I always look on it negatively which is a little bit unfair, perhaps. There is nothing wrong with being patriotic. But there seems to be just such a spate of them everywhere lately that I wonder if it's more jingoistic and nationalistic than patriotic - and that worries me a lot, it really does. That people could feel so strongly about racial `purity' that they have it tattooed on them for life, at such a young age, too. It's really sad.
misskittyfantastico
20-07-2009, 23:15
I feel like, also, that I see an inordinately HUGE amount of Southern Cross or Australian Flag tattoos on young people - you know, in their early 20s.
I always look on it negatively which is a little bit unfair, perhaps. There is nothing wrong with being patriotic. But there seems to be just such a spate of them everywhere lately that I wonder if it's more jingoistic and nationalistic than patriotic - and that worries me a lot, it really does. That people could feel so strongly about racial `purity' that they have it tattooed on them for life, at such a young age, too. It's really sad.
Yup, I struggle with patriotism (being a feminist an' all) I can't celebrate our flag, when to me, it is racism flagified (yar, that's a word) It's not only the fact that our history as a nation is tragic, and abominable in terms of our treatment of our indigenous, but to hear such blatent racism, such stupidity, such d!cksnapperness. Yeah, I want to, and I do cry.
if you are proud and happy with your heritage what does it matter what anyone thinks?
I wish that were true.
It makes me bawl my eyes out that my beautiful precious children are first and foremost (when they meet people) a race. They're not just kids, they're a puzzle, "wow so what nationality is their Dad?" a curiosity, "so did you adopt or are they yours?" or a bloody freak show, "oh wow, I love half caste asians, they are sooo attractive!"
:barf:
They are 6th generation Australians, but because they also have non-Caucasian heritage as well they are instant foreigners. Isn't that sad?!
When i went out on the town with a girlfriend i had this fella put his hand up my skirt, as i was a regular (:o)at this pub i knew the bouncer so i walked up and told him, he was ropable and walked up to the fella and dragged him outside to "chat" i was standing next to the other bouncer when this lady walked up to me and said "You are only accusing him of that because he is black", i almost fell over i couldnt believe what she just said to me.
I didnt recover quick enough but i wanted to say to her "My step-father is aboriginal and he is babysitting my 10mth old son as we speak, do you really think i am accusing that fella of sexually harrasing me because i am racist??'
Hindsight is a lovely thing isnt it :laughing:
Needles to say i am not Racist in the slightest. Its nothing to do with race for me but behaviour.
And ill just add too that the fella got kicked out, its a long long story, i do wish i had pressed charges though (it was all on camera).
BabelFish
21-07-2009, 00:56
Wooooaaaaaaaaah.
reAllytee
21-07-2009, 01:37
When i went out on the town with a girlfriend i had this fella put his hand up my skirt, as i was a regular (:o)at this pub i knew the bouncer so i walked up and told him, he was ropable and walked up to the fella and dragged him outside to "chat" i was standing next to the other bouncer when this lady walked up to me and said "You are only accusing him of that because he is black", i almost fell over i couldnt believe what she just said to me.
I didnt recover quick enough but i wanted to say to her "My step-father is aboriginal and he is babysitting my 10mth old son as we speak, do you really think i am accusing that fella of sexually harrasing me because i am racist??'
Hindsight is a lovely thing isnt it :laughing:
Needles to say i am not Racist in the slightest. Its nothing to do with race for me but behaviour.
And ill just add too that the fella got kicked out, its a long long story, i do wish i had pressed charges though (it was all on camera).
OK.
Ummm maybe I am missing something here because I am sleep deprived but where exactly does this story fit with the OP ... Is it a reply to someone else or :confused:
I think we all are guilty of making comments, remarks or the likes but I also think that if we work on those issues & get passed our own bias then thats at least something.
Many cultures & races are racist in many various forms but yes we as a nation have a lot of work to do & I really hope that its something we 'get' quickly because we seem to be lagging.
Oh & as for people judging those with the Southern Cross tats etc ... Dont be so quick to do so because I know many who have these tats & it has nothing to do with half the rot that many use for their own agendas ... Remember what the Swastika was & still is before Hitler abused it.
BabelFish
21-07-2009, 01:45
That's why I said `I'm probably being unfair' about those tattoes - because as I also said there is nothing wrong with patriotism. Although I also didn't quite put it in the same category as Hitler and the swastika, that I recall. I see what you're getting at, though.
I also don't think you should assume, though, that `we are all guilty of making comments, remarks or the like' when it comes to racism (if it's racism you're talking about, and not just generic comments). I'm certainly not guilty of it, never have been, and neither is anybody I know or, would guess, many of the people who have participated in this thread.
IndigoJackiah's post was clearly an example of where she was accused of racism when she wasn't being racist. And how `race' cards are absolutely endemic in our society and creep into everything when it is highly unnecessary. A very relevant post.
Racism certainly is not limited to caucasians, as you say. It is rife in all societies and some are worse than others. I wouldn't put Australia at the extreme end of bad, but I wouldn't put it near the good end, either.
reAllytee
21-07-2009, 02:24
That's why I said `I'm probably being unfair' about those tattoes - because as I also said there is nothing wrong with patriotism. Although I also didn't quite put it in the same category as Hitler and the swastika, that I recall. I see what you're getting at, though.
Its also been said by others in threads at varying times but yes you brought it up so I just made the comment about it, I wasnt trying to single you out which was why I didnt quote you.
I also don't think you should assume, though, that `we are all guilty of making comments, remarks or the like' when it comes to racism (if it's racism you're talking about, and not just generic comments). I'm certainly not guilty of it, never have been, and neither is anybody I know or, would guess, many of the people who have participated in this thread.
OK.
Sorry you are perfect obviously & have never had a 'moment' in time where you have ever thought something bad even though you know it was wrong.
Me, I am happy to admit I am not perfect & I am ashamed that I have been scared after 911 happened & I worked for an American company in a large corporate office that was cleared after a couple of bomb threats that I thought things I should never have ever thought when around those from certain backgrounds carrying backpacks etc.
I am most certainly ashamed especially being that I grew up in a large Mulim community & most of my friends growing up were all Muslim but that was my reaction.
I will admit to it & I will admit that I learned from it.
IndigoJackiah's post was clearly an example of where she was accused of racism when she wasn't being racist. And how `race' cards are absolutely endemic in our society and creep into everything when it is highly unnecessary. A very relevant post.
As I said I am sleep deprived so trying to work out how it fit in.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Racism certainly is not limited to caucasians, as you say. It is rife in all societies and some are worse than others. I wouldn't put Australia at the extreme end of bad, but I wouldn't put it near the good end, either.
I never said it was the worst nor did I say it was good either, infact I said we are lagging & I hope we catch up. So I am struggling to understand what your point was :confused:
Padys Mom
21-07-2009, 03:57
I think you are all all being to hard on Australians - most of these ethenic people that you are talking about are Australians too, and although there is alot of racism, it isnt one sided.... Muslisms can be racist, Aboriginal's can be racist, Asians can be raced and Caucasens can be racist etc etc etc....
Also you talk about it being a problem here in Oz, but i wonder how many of you have travelled and got to know the locals of another country, im not just taking about a greet and bye sort of knowing..... I lived in America, Canada, England, Paris, Germany and aother countries for quite a number of years and i know for a fact that the majority of the population in all of those countries are racist too, i am not making any generalisations here, just stating what i found to be true.
It has nothing to do with where you live, just the fact that the Human Race itself is racist, with everyone having a different opinon and value system, they are no doubtedly in this world for themseleves and that is where the racisim begins IYKWIM
Except for a few, isolated populations in the world, race is largely a myth. There are people who identify as Aboriginal who have more "white" blood than Aboriginal, and "white" people who have heritage from many different cultures.
And religion, and the way you dress (eg headscarves, hijab etc) has NOTHING to do with race.
Why do people insist on highlighting our differences and then, if they can't see obvious ones, make them up? How are we ever going to defeat racism that way?
And in my book, anyone who chooses to call Australia their home is Australian, regardless of the colour of their skin, or where they were born. As a first generation Australian myself, I don't think I have a right to deny someone "Australianness" just because they have come from somewhere else.
And OP, I think you ARE being over protective, reacting with concern to the labelling. But that doesn't make your reaction wrong ... you have very real, justified concerns.
Poppetfish
21-07-2009, 07:47
I just thought that i would add a comment that i get that offends me. I was up last night thinking about why it offends me. It is racist but our society doesn't think it is racist because I am of european appearance. The comment is "Blonde Bimbo."
I could also go so far as to say that he we really want to get into semantics, that anyone who dies their hair, wears makeup, or has hair removal (shaving, waxing, laser) is racist. They are altering their appearance to look like another race!!!! :rolleyes:
Blonde bimbo may offend some people (sometimes it annoys me and I have blonde hair) but it hasn't been used as a derogatory remark in the past.
Things like abo, wog, coon, and all these other HORRIBLE words have been used in a nasty way in the past so it is more offensive than blonde bimbo as that is more used as a joke.
When we bought our house, we had problems with the previous owners who refused to move out. When my friend was telling people about it, she would say, "the muslims won't move out." I said to her, "why do you feel the need to say what they are? And who cares, a white person could do exactly the same thing and you wouldn't say oh the white people won't move out."
Airport security.....I used to travel a lot with my boss...she was Irish, so an original terrorist, and she was tested constantly. It used to upset her no end (still does), and this is a woman who flies at least twice a week.
As far as the asian baby comments...I am constantly being asked what DD "has in her". A shade of gorgeous, plus two parts beautiful ;)
Poppetfish
21-07-2009, 08:16
Blonde bimbo may offend some people (sometimes it annoys me and I have blonde hair) but it hasn't been used as a derogatory remark in the past.
Things like abo, wog, coon, and all these other HORRIBLE words have been used in a nasty way in the past so it is more offensive than blonde bimbo as that is more used as a joke.
When we bought our house, we had problems with the previous owners who refused to move out. When my friend was telling people about it, she would say, "the muslims won't move out." I said to her, "why do you feel the need to say what they are? And who cares, a white person could do exactly the same thing and you wouldn't say oh the white people won't move out."
So by what your saying is that I cant mak any comment about how anyone looks. eg African, Asian, Middle easterner but they can call me a blonde bimbo because i am white and things said against people with white skin are not racist!!!!!!!
That is racist!!!!
Also the definition of racism because everyone has a differant idea about it.
racism Show phonetics
noun [U] (UK OLD-FASHIONED racialism) DISAPPROVING
the belief that people's qualities are influenced by their race and that the members of other races are not as good as the members of your own, or the resulting unfair treatment of members of other races:
The authorities are taking steps to combat/fight/tackle racism in schools.
The report made it plain that institutional racism (= racism in all parts of an organization) is deep-rooted in this country.
racist Show phonetics
noun [C] (UK OLD-FASHIONED racialist) DISAPPROVING
someone who believes that other races are not as good as their own and therefore treats them unfairly:
Two of the killers are known to be racists.
racist Show phonetics
adjective
He furiously denied being racist.
They were the victims of a vicious racist attack.
It says nowhere there that mentioning someone's race is racist, but using it in a negative way is. So saying that someone is asian is not racist!:p
Poppetfish
21-07-2009, 08:22
Airport security.....I used to travel a lot with my boss...she was Irish, so an original terrorist, and she was tested constantly. It used to upset her no end (still does), and this is a woman who flies at least twice a week.
Dont rag on my old job. It is random. Get that random!!!! We just pick the next person that comes through the metal detectors. Some guards will just randomly grab a bag of the belt and ask whoes it is. Just because you don't like getting tested don't rag on someone else job and call them racist because of what they do. At the airport that i used to work at, 3/4's of the security staff had english as a second language. On my team i had 2 mohammeds, a thor, a krishtani, a duncan, an alexander and a fung. I was the only one who had english as a first language.
How about we just call all accountants racist?:no:
I think you are all all being to hard on Australians - most of these ethenic people that you are talking about are Australians too, and although there is alot of racism, it isnt one sided.... Muslisms can be racist, Aboriginal's can be racist, Asians can be raced and Caucasens can be racist etc etc etc....
Also you talk about it being a problem here in Oz, but i wonder how many of you have travelled and got to know the locals of another country, im not just taking about a greet and bye sort of knowing..... I lived in America, Canada, England, Paris, Germany and aother countries for quite a number of years and i know for a fact that the majority of the population in all of those countries are racist too, i am not making any generalisations here, just stating what i found to be true.
It has nothing to do with where you live, just the fact that the Human Race itself is racist, with everyone having a different opinon and value system, they are no doubtedly in this world for themseleves and that is where the racisim begins IYKWIM
I agree with your last paragraph, as terrible as that conclusion is.:(
But just because the rest of the world is bad, it doesn't mean we can't strive for a higher standard here. For example, if everybody else was kicking a puppy, I wouldn't join in.
I also often see "Aborigines" referred to as "Aboriginals". Aborigine is the noun, Aboriginal is the adjective.
It's not just a matter of grammar either:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/AboriginalLB/1986/39.html
Berni, I'm not sure that anyone is saying airport security staff are racist.
They are suggesting that airport procedures target certain nationalities and appearances more than others.
I don't use my Irish passport in Australia, so have never had a problem here, but EVERY TIME I have travelled to the US on my Irish passport I have been processed separately to my English work colleagues.
When I asked why, I was told Irish passports are considered "too easy" to get, and Irish people receive extra attention from security because of this.
(Not at the baggage scan level, but at the immigration/customs level.)
I would suggest the airport thing varies from country to country, and even from airport to airport.
So working for one airport (or even a couple) does not mean you can rule out discriminatory screening processes elsewhere.
I could also go so far as to say that he we really want to get into semantics, that anyone who dies their hair, wears makeup, or has hair removal (shaving, waxing, laser) is racist. They are altering their appearance to look like another race!!!! :rolleyes:
I don't know about the makeup and hair removal side, lol, what hairless, coloured eye-lidded, black eyelash, blonde streaked, red lipped race am I trying to copy? :p
As far as the asian baby comments...I am constantly being asked what DD "has in her". A shade of gorgeous, plus two parts beautiful ;)
You are a generous hearted person for sure! I hate that comment, it sounds like they're describing a breed of dog to me, eww. And yet, wuss that I am, I actually answer. Sheesh.
I also often see "Aborigines" referred to as "Aboriginals". Aborigine is the noun, Aboriginal is the adjective.
It's not just a matter of grammar either:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/AboriginalLB/1986/39.html
Interesting, thanks for the link. My aboriginal studies teacher insisted we use Aborginal, lol, he had it in reverse to the article though, saying Aborigine was offensive and just labeled him like a piece of fauna. My grammar is appalling though so it never seemed strange to me.
I love JJJ
21-07-2009, 09:36
As far as the asian baby comments...I am constantly being asked what DD "has in her". A shade of gorgeous, plus two parts beautiful ;)
My daughter is half caucasian and half of another race and these comments don't worry me at all. :no:
People always say 'oh her olive skin is gorgeous....what is her father?' It doesn't worry me, or her father who is quite dark.
They aren't meaning to be rude, just asking a question.
I think political correctness has gone waaaay too far.
Meh.
Lillynix
21-07-2009, 09:38
Racism is rife in Australia. :hugs: It sucks, and it is a great shame to our country IMO.
You're not wrong there, unfortunately. Recently, here in Hobart a young Uni student was murdered because of her race :no: :(
There's a very big hoohaa happening in Tasmania here at the moment centered around the University and the amount of racism that happens towards it's students by other students, so sad, but finally those who are being targeted are sticking up and speaking out, which is great to see.
OP, you have every right to feel the way you do and no it's not overreacting. I cringe everytime someone relates something to race/religion amoung many other things, it's shocking.
sockstealingpoltergeist
21-07-2009, 09:39
I just thought that i would add a comment that i get that offends me. I was up last night thinking about why it offends me. It is racist but our society doesn't think it is racist because I am of european appearance. The comment is "Blonde Bimbo." I find it offensive when any one says that.:confused: It is a stereotype, and is often used by white australians.
I could also go so far as to say that he we really want to get into semantics, that anyone who dies their hair, wears makeup, or has hair removal (shaving, waxing, laser) is racist. They are altering their appearance to look like another race!!!! :rolleyes:
That doesn't make sense. Most people who do those things are not trying to look like another race they are buying into patriarchal beauty myths.
I wish I had an intelligent comment to make here...
but all I really want to say is that I agree with most of you. Racism if rife and it sucks!
I too cringe when people talk about someone by pointing out there race or religion.. I am ashamed that my own family often do it :( .. eg, my mother will say "you know Fred? he's the indian butcher" .. why not just say.. "you know fred? the skinny butcher with the dark hair" .. I'm yet to hear someone say "there were 2 white christian kids playing in the park" ... not saying that would be right either! FFS, just leave race out of it! we are all PEOPLE!!
Poppetfish
21-07-2009, 10:33
I find it offensive when any one says that.:confused: It is a stereotype, and is often used by white australians.
That doesn't make sense. Most people who do those things are not trying to look like another race they are buying into patriarchal beauty myths.
So changing your blonde hair to brown isn't racist. Differant races of people have differant features. People shave their legs so they can look like the people who have light blonde leg hair. People bleach dark facial hair to look more like people with lighter body hair. People use eyeliner and mascara to make their eyes appear bigger and more european. Just because that is what the media says is beautiful, doesn't make it any less of a race issue.
Also i have never heard another blonde woman calling another blonde woman, a dumb blonde. Blonde hair originates from Scandinavia and northern europe. The further you travel down the globe, the darker people's hair tends to be. It is racist. Just because two people have fair skin but calls the other one dumb for having lighter hair is like saying an african man can call an aborigine "a stupid native."
sockstealingpoltergeist
21-07-2009, 10:41
So changing your blonde hair to brown isn't racist. Differant races of people have differant features. People shave their legs so they can look like the people who have light blonde leg hair. People bleach dark facial hair to look more like people with lighter body hair. People use eyeliner and mascara to make their eyes appear bigger and more european. Just because that is what the media says is beautiful, doesn't make it any less of a race issue.."
:confused: No it isn't a race issue if a person is changeing themselves to be what they have been taught is more socialy acceptable, but it says a lot about societies norms and expectations. Many blonde haired blue eyed people remove hair too. Not because they want to be another race, but because they want to conform to social norms. So I am confused as to how it is racist.
Also i have never heard another blonde woman calling another blonde woman, a dumb blonde. Blonde hair originates from Scandinavia and northern europe. The further you travel down the globe, the darker people's hair tends to be. It is racist. Just because two people have fair skin but calls the other one dumb for having lighter hair is like saying an african man can call an aborigine "a stupid native."
:confused: OK, you have lost me entirely.
I have heard women jokingly use the dumb blonde line, when they are blonde. I don't like stereotypes at all, but anyone can change their hair colour, it is not a racist remark.
In NZ we have a pretty good race relations.
But there is still a lot of chatter about racism regardless.
I think the best you can do is ensure that there is no institutional racism at a governmental, business and school level.
If a great standard is set, by our leaders, at those levels then slowly it will filter through. Youngsters who get raised in such an atmosphere will be all the better for it.
Someone has said it already, but across the ditch here in NZ it did look like the Howard goverment was really racist. As a leader I did not think he set a good example.
I also think that Barack Obama is the best thing that has happened to the world for a long time. Especially in regards to racism.
Congratulations to the Americans for demanding a better way than guns to solve problems.
mollyk99
21-07-2009, 10:42
I wish I had an intelligent comment to make here...
but all I really want to say is that I agree with most of you. Racism if rife and it sucks!
I too cringe when people talk about someone by pointing out there race or religion.. I am ashamed that my own family often do it :( .. eg, my mother will say "you know Fred? he's the indian butcher" .. why not just say.. "you know fred? the skinny butcher with the dark hair" .. I'm yet to hear someone say "there were 2 white christian kids playing in the park" ... not saying that would be right either! FFS, just leave race out of it! we are all PEOPLE!!
:iagree:
I remember years ago when #1 started at her new kinder and she was telling me all about her day. She was telling me Debbie said this and Debbie said that....
I was trying to find out which one Debbie was and poor #1 was going nuts 'she has black long hair mummy' and 'she paints with me' and 'she's very tall'....
I met Debbie a few days later and she was African-American.
It was so nice to realise my kids were 'colour-blind' and the fact that her skin was a different colour had meant so little to DD that she didn't think to mention it.
Molly
Berni, most of your assumptions are actually incorrect. Blonde hair does not originate in Scandinavia - northern Europe was uninhabitable until about 10,000 years ago, and I can assure you blondes existed before then. The marker (ie the genetic combination thought to produce blond hair) is known from many, many different parts of the world and probably originated in the Caucausus mountains (Russia).
As for shaving so that people can look like those with blonde hair on their legs ... sorry, no. Removal of body hair is very ancient and widespread, but is most recently traced to the Ottoman harems. No wanna-be "blondes" there ... and how sad that a practice associated with slavery and forced sexual relationships has become so widespread ...
Potential thread derailment there, so ignore that tangent!
sockstealingpoltergeist
21-07-2009, 10:47
In NZ we have a pretty good race relations.
But there is still a lot of chatter about racism regardless.
I think the best you can do is ensure that there is no institutional racism at a governmental, business and school level.
If a great standard is set, by our leaders, at those levels then slowly it will filter through. Youngsters who get raised in such an atmosphere will be all the better for it.
Someone has said it already, but across the ditch here in NZ it did look like the Howard goverment was really racist. As a leader I did not think he set a good example.
I also think that Barack Obama is the best thing that has happened to the world for a long time. Especially in regards to racism.
Congratulations to the Americans for demanding a better way than guns to solve problems.
You don't need to clarify where you are from every post it's OK.:hugs:;)
Any who, are you talking about political correctness? Yes it's a very good thing.
Any who, are you talking about political correctness? Yes it's a very good thing.
Could be. I dunno. I just know that you have to start somewhere to get rid of prejudices and at the top, by leaders is the best place to start.
I suppose it's possible to say that it's political correctness gone mad to enshrine things in law that fight prejudices. It's better to lead by example. Then you won't get the grumbles of people saying they are forced to do something. But I do think laws are important to back stuff like this up?
I'll try to keep out that I'm from NZ all the time! Or did I just do it again... :cool:
sockstealingpoltergeist
21-07-2009, 11:11
Could be. I dunno. I just know that you have to start somewhere to get rid of prejudices and at the top, by leaders is the best place to start.
I suppose it's possible to say that it's political correctness gone mad to enshrine things in law that fight prejudices. It's better to lead by example. Then you won't get the grumbles of people saying they are forced to do something. But I do think laws are important to back stuff like this up?
Forcing people to not be racist or sexist/ prejudiced through the law works for me. :)
If laws are in place it means our society is saying this is so wrong it's illegal and it sends a strong message.
DanceInTheRain
21-07-2009, 11:14
My DP is arabic (not muslim though, he's athiest). If someone was racist towards him I'm sure it would affect me a lot more than him, he's the type of person to let things roll off his back. I'm much more defensive :-)
But I also agree that just saying someone is muslim is nowhere near racist. You can say things like 'Irish' without anyone batting an eyelid or saying you are being racist. Political correctness these days drives me crazy!
NibbleCurlynBub
21-07-2009, 11:20
xDP ALWAYS gets looked at twice at airports etc.
He doesn't look like any ethnicity in particular, but does look like a pretty scary bloke and honestly isn't overly nice to strangers.
I'd see red too if people were racist towards my children. Its stupid. But then we probably all know that stupid things outnumber sensible ones a million to one anyway.
Lillynix
21-07-2009, 11:29
I think it depends. Just mentioning that someone is Muslim (for example) doesn't automatically make it a racist statement.
But to mention someone's cultural differences is not, by default, a racist thing to do.
*I have edited the quoted post as this are these are the statements i'm responding to
The point is, it may not be intended, or even percieved as racist BUT what the heck does it matter!?
What possible purpose does it serve to say "I saw these two Indian guys..." what does the fact they were Indian have anything to do with the preceeding story?
Would you have said "I saw these two caucasion guys..." or even "I saw these two white guys..." no chances are you wouldn't say that, because it has no bearing to the story that they were caucasion/white but somehow, if they are Indian it is important?
So I say it again, it may not be intended or percieved as a racist comment, but if the race of the person has NOTHING to do with the preceeding story, then don't mention it.
WorkingClassMum
21-07-2009, 11:32
I loved the ad on TV many years ago for roast lamb
The father is carving a leg of lamb and offer's to his DD's friend who's over for dinner and asks quite patronisingly "And where were you born"
The girl child replies "Ballarat..."
The father is complexed and embarrsed - 'cos he assumed that the girl was anything BUT Australian - she was of asian decent...
This assumption has been rife for many many years.
I grew up with two girls who were 8th generation Australia and of asian decent - they frequently copped racist comments.
I often wonder where exactly would they go to go back to where they came from - jeesz where would I go?
Yeah I know about racism.
But apparently it doesn't exist. Racism is probably one of the key reasons I don't "feel" Australian. Such a nice welcome I got to this country:wave:.
I probably hate racism more than I hate rapists and that's saying something.
Berni, most of your assumptions are actually incorrect. Blonde hair does not originate in Scandinavia - northern Europe was uninhabitable until about 10,000 years ago, and I can assure you blondes existed before then. The marker (ie the genetic combination thought to produce blond hair) is known from many, many different parts of the world and probably originated in the Caucausus mountains (Russia).
Aren't people really dark in the Caucasus:confused:? Where did you get the info?
I also always thought that the Vikings for had the blonde hair....
WorkingClassMum
21-07-2009, 11:40
[QUOTE=Alisgirl;3916656]
. You can say things like 'Irish' without anyone batting an eyelid or saying you are being racist. [QUOTE]
My cat went near a man and he kicked it
My cat went near an Irish man and he kicked it
My cat went near a Muslim man and he kicked it
The fact the the man was Irish or Muslim hasd nothing to do with him kicking the cat - the story is about a cruel man kicking a cat
A f*wit indian women cut me off
A f*wit black women cut me off
A f*wit muslim women cut me off
A f*wit women cut me off
A rude person cut me off
The fact is that someone cut you off - their color, religion or sex has nothingto do with you being cut off (unless the police ask for a description and the the profanity in unnecessary) IYKWIM - using race/religion or sex etc to denigrate a person is discrimitory
Oh by the way. Front page news today.
A group of NZ brown people came across a guy who had been beaten up on the sidewalk in Oz. They started assisting him. The cops turned up and immediately demanded what they were doing. 2 of them got pepper sprayed and spent the night in jail. For trying to be good samaritans.
That's institutionalised racism.
Link here. You may need to copy and paste.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10585708
Aren't people really dark in the Caucasus:confused:? Where did you get the info?
I also always thought that the Vikings for had the blonde hair....
*WARNING: Lecture!!!*
Mutations (ie blonde hair, a mutation from the default setting, which is dark) arise randomly, and then become common when a population is isolated for a long time.
The Caucasus were a bottleneck for a lot of populations coming in from the warmer Eastern countries after the ice sheets withdrew ... the Celts, for example, are thought to have originated in (or settled for several millenia) in that area before spreading across Europe. It was a crossroads of populations moving into and out of Europe ... have a look at the Genographic Project maps to get an idea of what I mean.
Mutations arise randomly where there is a lot of genetic diversity, and then become common where there are isolated populations. Northern Europe was too cold for too long to support many people = isolated populations, where blondness, blue eyes was allowed to become more common than the norm.
But it DID NOT originate with them. (They weren't there because the place was under an icesheet for until 10,000 years ago!!!)
Don't tell the Danes the Vikings were blond, btw. They might disagree with you. Finns tend to be quite blond (not Vikings), Swedes it is common (Vikings), but Danes - Vikings - not so much.
My sources? 10 years of study of anthropology and population genetics ... this is my field of interest.
I think political correctness has gone waaaay too far.
Meh.
:iagree: I have five children, 2 part croatian, 1 part aboriginal, and 2 part jewish.. But I am called a racist all the time on here so I think it is ridiculous the amount of 'that's offensive' rubbish that gets carried on about. I judge people by their behaviour not their race.. but I do LOVE genetics and am fascinated with anthropology as a lae person.. I would have loved to have lived a different life and studied these at Uni. I think the term racism is used too broadly. I find nothing wrong with enjoying our differences.
I also think that Barack Obama is the best thing that has happened to the world for a long time. Especially in regards to racism.
Congratulations to the Americans for demanding a better way than guns to solve problems.
Not certain on if he will help as a politician but I feel quite excited that a black president was voted in. It was an enormous lift to the African American people. It was very emotional.
I think you are all all being to hard on Australians - most of these ethenic people that you are talking about are Australians too, and although there is alot of racism, it isnt one sided.... Muslisms can be racist, Aboriginal's can be racist, Asians can be raced and Caucasens can be racist etc etc etc....
Also you talk about it being a problem here in Oz, but i wonder how many of you have travelled and got to know the locals of another country, im not just taking about a greet and bye sort of knowing..... I lived in America, Canada, England, Paris, Germany and aother countries for quite a number of years and i know for a fact that the majority of the population in all of those countries are racist too, i am not making any generalisations here, just stating what i found to be true.
It has nothing to do with where you live, just the fact that the Human Race itself is racist, with everyone having a different opinon and value system, they are no doubtedly in this world for themseleves and that is where the racisim begins IYKWIM
:yelclap:
You're right, when people are constantly racist, and it effects your life chances and you are bullied because of it, what does it matter?:rolleyes:
If people sit around waiting for the world to become a more diplomatic, non-racist, perfect place before feeling secure in who they are and proud of their heritage then they will be waiting forever!
I have a ethnic doctor who I really like and admire. He certainly doesnt look like a person that is bullied .. he has made something of his life and not made up excuses or reasons to blame a failed life on
BabelFish
21-07-2009, 13:34
If people sit around waiting for the world to become a more diplomatic, non-racist, perfect place before feeling secure in who they are and proud of their heritage then they will be waiting forever!
Absolutely - that's why we can't just sit around and wait for it to happen. We have to fight, and we have to keep on fighting. Threads like this are just a very tiny part of the fight, but the more people are talking about it, the further we will go.
Absolutely - that's why we can't just sit around and wait for it to happen. We have to fight, and we have to keep on fighting. Threads like this are just a very tiny part of the fight, but the more people are talking about it, the further we will go.
I fear however that for some people they will see racism everywhere, even when it is not there! :gloomy:
BabelFish
21-07-2009, 13:56
That does happen - the old political correctness thing is taken WAY too far a lot of the time. However, I think that it's better to be slightly over-vigilant than under-vigilant. I think differences in culture, race and religion should be explored and embraced, talked about, learned about and welcomed. I think we try to hide away too much for fear of shame or being labelled `racist'. But there is always a very fine line, and it's one that society is still working on to get right.
*WARNING: Lecture!!!*
Mutations (ie blonde hair, a mutation from the default setting, which is dark) arise randomly, and then become common when a population is isolated for a long time.
The Caucasus were a bottleneck for a lot of populations coming in from the warmer Eastern countries after the ice sheets withdrew ... the Celts, for example, are thought to have originated in (or settled for several millenia) in that area before spreading across Europe. It was a crossroads of populations moving into and out of Europe ... have a look at the Genographic Project maps to get an idea of what I mean.
Mutations arise randomly where there is a lot of genetic diversity, and then become common where there are isolated populations. Northern Europe was too cold for too long to support many people = isolated populations, where blondness, blue eyes was allowed to become more common than the norm.
But it DID NOT originate with them. (They weren't there because the place was under an icesheet for until 10,000 years ago!!!)
Don't tell the Danes the Vikings were blond, btw. They might disagree with you. Finns tend to be quite blond (not Vikings), Swedes it is common (Vikings), but Danes - Vikings - not so much.
My sources? 10 years of study of anthropology and population genetics ... this is my field of interest.
Oh wow! That is actually a field I am incredibly interested in! Thank you so much for the info.
:oHave you got any more interesting readings? (sorry this is OT but if you do please let me know).
sockstealingpoltergeist
21-07-2009, 14:10
I have five children, 2 part croatian, 1 part aboriginal, and 2 part jewish.. But I am called a racist all the time on here so I think it is ridiculous the amount of 'that's offensive' rubbish that gets carried on about. I judge people by their behaviour not their race.. but I do LOVE genetics and am fascinated with anthropology as a lae person.. I would have loved to have lived a different life and studied these at Uni. I think the term racism is used too broadly. I find nothing wrong with enjoying our differences.
I find nothing worng with enjoying our differences either, in fact they should be celebrated. being racist does not celebrate differences.
Anyone can be racist, doesn't matter where they are from, who they are related to. It is never OK.
If people sit around waiting for the world to become a more diplomatic, non-racist, perfect place before feeling secure in who they are and proud of their heritage then they will be waiting forever!
When people point out racist behaviours, or comments, it would appear they are doing anything but sitting around waiting for things to change. It would appear they are being pro active.
There is nothing wrong with striving for change, and I fail to how it is a bad thing. What you are saying is contradictory.
I know many people who have been at the brunt of racism and they are trying to change peoples attitudes. The very idea that people who cop racist remarks are seen as lazy and arn't doing anything is racist and makes no sense.
I have a ethnic doctor who I really like and admire. He certainly doesnt look like a person that is bullied .. he has made something of his life and not made up excuses or reasons to blame a failed life on
He may or may not have experienced racism. Racism isn't an excuse as to why people may not get ahead, however it is a reason. Racism is real it exists and there is much evidence to show that if you are not white a white male in Austrlaia then your life chances are diminished. That is a fact. Not an excuse. That is why we have laws about sexism and racism. Because it is recognised that some people are at an unfair disadvantage.
You don't know how he(Dr) feels or what has happened to lead him to be where he is.
It's fine for you to say all of this from your privaleged position as a white person.
Racism is rife in Australia. :hugs: It sucks, and it is a great shame to our country IMO.
This was what i was replying to.
OK.
Ummm maybe I am missing something here because I am sleep deprived but where exactly does this story fit with the OP ... Is it a reply to someone else or :confused:
Im sorry if it didnt make sence, but i did have a point but unlike others i dont have all the fancy words.
I was getting accused of racism, when i was not being racist, is that not a form of racism?? Just because i am caucasion.
IndigoJackiah's post was clearly an example of where she was accused of racism when she wasn't being racist. And how `race' cards are absolutely endemic in our society and creep into everything when it is highly unnecessary. A very relevant post.
:) Thanks for putting my post into the fancy words. I couldnt find them :laughing: But yes thats what i was aiming at.
To the OP no i dont think you are being overprotective, however i dont think much will change in regards to racist people, i wish it would though :hugs:
BabelFish
21-07-2009, 14:48
I was getting accused of racism, when i was not being racist, is that not a form of racism?? Just because i am caucasion.
:) Thanks for putting my post into the fancy words. I couldnt find them :laughing: But yes thats what i was aiming at.
No worries!
I was also accused of thinking I am perfect just because I've never said anything racist. People often misinterpret what you say - and sometimes quite deliberately.
I fear however that for some people they will see racism everywhere, even when it is not there! :gloomy:
I fear that so many people are blind to racism when it is staring right back at them in the mirror:gloomy: :gloomy: :gloomy:.
I fear that so many people are blind to racism with it is staring right back at them in the mirror:gloomy: :gloomy: :gloomy:.
:iagree:
Raising Leprechauns
21-07-2009, 15:25
We can talk about, cite examples.... debate until the cows come home.......
But the best thing to do....
Is raise our children to be accepting of others, regardless of race, religion, sexuality, disability..... Make a point of modelling good behaviours...... teach them that it's ok to be different and answer their questions openly.
Maybe as mothers - we can move positively towards eliminating racism through our children.
It's fine for you to say all of this from your privaleged position as a white person.
:hair: you have used this comment so many times it :banghead::hissy: and :crying: me!!! It is actually a racist comment!
Just because a person has not experienced racism - which i have been called a 'dumb blonde' before which i consider racist...
I have been a single mother, I am a woman and I have been below the poverty line. So I KNOW what oppression/victimisation etc IS!
So I am fully capable of empathising with a person that deals with racism.
I DONT agree with you on, which is my main arguement in this thread, that describing a person by their colour/race/religion is racist (hmm is that the topic of this thread.. I am so sick at the moment i am getting confused with all the threads on racism) :gloomy:
I fear that so many people are blind to racism when it is staring right back at them in the mirror:gloomy: :gloomy: :gloomy:.
I dont have a clue what you are talking about. :no:
Deserama
21-07-2009, 17:29
Ok...I'm probably not going to be popular here but I'm not writing this to score points...only to enlighten people.
I have 2 scenarios that I would like for people to think about....
#1 That major terrorist network that was in Sydney a few years back...yeh my SIL is in the federal police and worked on the case. She says that one of them was a spit image of my ex (her own brother). Now my ex is not arabic in any way shape or form...he has not arabic background...just an aussie bloke. And I always thought he looked like just an aussie bloke with no other culture...but apparantly not. He's been stopped at airports too. But would you blame them? Seriously?
#2 I don't know if people know this, but my dh used to be a funeral director...well as of March this year he is now a watchouse officer for QLD police city watchouse. They have just had a husband and wife through there who have arabic backgrounds and who are AUSTRALIAN...who were affiliated with a terrorist network. Bombs were found...blue prints of parliament house was found and plans were found for another major shopping centre..among other things.
They would have needed to be questioned and searched etc....for all this to have been found out. What would you prefer officials to do?? Ignore you just in case they are called 'racist'???
sockstealingpoltergeist
21-07-2009, 17:34
:hair: you have used this comment so many times it :banghead::hissy: and :crying: me!!! It is actually a racist comment!
No it is a statistical fact, as a white women I enjoy privelages that many other non white people don't get purely because of the colour of my skin.
Just because a person has not experienced racism - which i have been called a 'dumb blonde' before which i consider racist... As have I, I too have blonde hair. However i know I'm not dumb and I can dye my hair at any time. It isn't right however it is not racism and to make that comparison is ludicrous to me. It's actually more to do with patriarchy, whioch is opression of women.
I have been a single mother, I am a woman and I have been below the poverty line. So I KNOW what oppression/victimisation etc IS!
So do I, however I have never experienced that compounded by racism as well. Imagine this you can never escape your oppressed race ever. You can't marry out of it, you can't work your way out of it you can't study out of it etc etc. But I do agree women are oppressed too.
So I am fully capable of empathising with a person that deals with racism.
Morrigan the things you say tell me that you don't have empathy and you don't get it.
I DONT agree with you on, which is my main arguement in this thread, that describing a person by their colour/race/religion is racist (hmm is that the topic of this thread.. I am so sick at the moment i am getting confused with all the threads on racism) :gloomy:
You are wrong IMO, Working class mum gave some great examples of why it is racist.
I see and hear it all the time, people talk of their interactions with people. No mention of their race if they are white people, yet many people mention their race when it is not relevant if they are of a minority race. That makes it racist.
sockstealingpoltergeist
21-07-2009, 17:46
Ok...I'm probably not going to be popular here but I'm not writing this to score points...only to enlighten people.
I have 2 scenarios that I would like for people to think about....
#1 That major terrorist network that was in Sydney a few years back...yeh my SIL is in the federal police and worked on the case. She says that one of them was a spit image of my ex (her own brother). Now my ex is not arabic in any way shape or form...he has not arabic background...just an aussie bloke. And I always thought he looked like just an aussie bloke with no other culture...but apparantly not. He's been stopped at airports too. But would you blame them? Seriously?
#2 I don't know if people know this, but my dh used to be a funeral director...well as of March this year he is now a watchouse officer for QLD police city watchouse. They have just had a husband and wife through there who have arabic backgrounds and who are AUSTRALIAN...who were affiliated with a terrorist network. Bombs were found...blue prints of parliament house was found and plans were found for another major shopping centre..among other things.
They would have needed to be questioned and searched etc....for all this to have been found out. What would you prefer officials to do?? Ignore you just in case they are called 'racist'???
What you are asking doesn't make sense to me.:confused:
If people are searched purely because of their looks it is racist. If not then it isn't racist.
If these people were found out because of random checks that really are random, then all is good.
reAllytee
21-07-2009, 17:53
This was what i was replying to.
Im sorry if it didnt make sence, but i did have a point but unlike others i dont have all the fancy words.
I was getting accused of racism, when i was not being racist, is that not a form of racism?? Just because i am caucasion.
:) Thanks for putting my post into the fancy words. I couldnt find them :laughing: But yes thats what i was aiming at.
To the OP no i dont think you are being overprotective, however i dont think much will change in regards to racist people, i wish it would though :hugs:
For the love of God ...
I said I was trying to work out how it fit in but was sleep deprived so was unsure ...
I apologise for asking ...
Geees.
No worries!
I was also accused of thinking I am perfect just because I've never said anything racist. People often misinterpret what you say - and sometimes quite deliberately.
Oh yes thats what I aim for on a daily basis to follow you around & 'deliberately' misinterpret everything you say ... For fun of course because I have nothing better to do :rolleyes:
Deserama
21-07-2009, 17:59
What you are asking doesn't make sense to me.:confused:
If people are searched purely because of their looks it is racist. If not then it isn't racist.
If these people were found out because of random checks that really are random, then all is good.
I don't know if they were checked randomly or if they were checked because of the way they looked. But aren't you glad they were checked?? What if they weren't checked because someone didn't want to be racist...what then?? How do you explain not checking them and them bombing a shopping centre..what do you say? "I'm sorry I didn't check them...I just didn't want to be racist" :o Oops!
Try telling that to the people who are now dead!
Sometimes people's lives are more important than whether someone has their feelings hurt...or they get annoyed, or feel hard done by.
Mathermy
21-07-2009, 18:07
Try telling that to the people who are now dead!
.
um, that doesn't sound like a very clever idea!:p
sockstealingpoltergeist
21-07-2009, 18:08
um, that doesn't sound like a very clever idea!:p
PMSL, I was about to hit myself in the head with a lump of wood, because it seemed less painful to me then replying once again to this thread.
However laughter works.
I don't know if they were checked randomly or if they were checked because of the way they looked. But aren't you glad they were checked?? What if they weren't checked because someone didn't want to be racist...what then?? How do you explain not checking them and them bombing a shopping centre..what do you say? "I'm sorry I didn't check them...I just didn't want to be racist" :o Oops!
Try telling that to the people who are now dead!
Sometimes people's lives are more important than whether someone has their feelings hurt...or they get annoyed, or feel hard done by.
So, are you proposing that everybody of "Middle Eastern appearance" have their person and property checked at the airport?
I
Try telling that to the people who are now dead!
What about the people who are detained purely on race grounds, with no credible evidence against them (apart from the colour of their skin or cultural background), tortured and imprisoned without charge, denied human rights, vilified in the media, and then eventually perhaps released with no charges ever being brought against them, and no apology? Or the ones who are just not released?
I think that goes beyond "hurt feelings".
I would be assuming that the people you refered to would have been investigated on more than their race - warrants would not be issued based on race, there would have to be evidence.
um, that doesn't sound like a very clever idea!:p
:laughing: Classic Malol humour. I love it:goodvibes:.
For the love of God ...
I said I was trying to work out how it fit in but was sleep deprived so was unsure ...
I apologise for asking ...
Geees.
:rolleyes:
No need to apologise, you asked Chesby and i clarifyed, all good?? :shakehands:
Poppetfish
21-07-2009, 18:27
So, are you proposing that everybody of "Middle Eastern appearance" have their person and property checked at the airport?
Everybody of middle eastern appearance already has all their property checked at the airport. So does every other person that gets on a plane!!!!Every piece of carry on and checked luggage is already, x-rayed. Everything oversized is ETD as well as random ETD of random people coming into the airport.
Deserama
21-07-2009, 18:36
So, are you proposing that everybody of "Middle Eastern appearance" have their person and property checked at the airport?
Well it's either people get killed or people of "Middle eastern appearance" are inconvenienced.
Deserama
21-07-2009, 18:38
um, that doesn't sound like a very clever idea!:p
Errm...Oh yeh! Duh! :dizzy: Well their families then ;)
Everybody of middle eastern appearance already has all their property checked at the airport. So does every other person that gets on a plane!!!!Every piece of carry on and checked luggage is already, x-rayed. Everything oversized is ETD as well as random ETD of random people coming into the airport.
Sorry, my post was unclear. What I meant to ask was Desarama suggesting (as she seemed to be) that people of Middle Eastern appearance be subjected to more rigorous checking, such as these "random" checks you speak of.
Deserama
21-07-2009, 18:41
What about the people who are detained purely on race grounds, with no credible evidence against them (apart from the colour of their skin or cultural background), tortured and imprisoned without charge, denied human rights, vilified in the media, and then eventually perhaps released with no charges ever being brought against them, and no apology? Or the ones who are just not released?
I think that goes beyond "hurt feelings".
I thought we were talking about being searched etc...in airports?? Are we talking about false imprisonment now???
I would be assuming that the people you refered to would have been investigated on more than their race - warrants would not be issued based on race, there would have to be evidence.
And evidence is aquired how exactly???
Well it's either people get killed or people of "Middle eastern appearance" are inconvenienced.
Fair enough. I have a good idea as well, actually. Men are statistically more likely to be in possession of child pornography. Let's issue warrants to police to check men's computers, just in case. It's either children are offended against, or men are inconvenienced.
Unfortunately, Desarama, the government is on your side, anyway.
I think it depends. Just mentioning that someone is Muslim (for example) doesn't automatically make it a racist statement. In fact, people who assume that ANY mention of race is racist are the ones with the problem, it seems to me. THEY are the ones looking for an agenda where there probably isn't one. THEY are the ones making the assumption that mentioning race automatically means you are disparaging it. THEY are the ones who appear to have a problem with someone being referred to by their race.
Like others, it annoys me NO end when I hear race being mentioned in a derogatory fashion when it's completely unnecessary. It happens on the commercial news ALL the time (especially Channel 7 - they are the worst). And it happens especially with Aboriginal or Muslim people. It's SO unfair.
But to mention someone's cultural differences is not, by default, a racist thing to do. People are so scared of any kind of differences at all these days (racial, gender, sexual preference) or whatever that our language is peppered with oversensitive euphemisms and idiotic avoidances - since when has difference of culture been a bad thing? Or something to be afraid of acknowledging?
It's a fine line, and in many cases people are very carelessly and often unconsciously racist. But yes, I think in general people in society are WAY too oversensitive about a lot of things, and tend to look for things to get offended by, instead of being a little more easygoing and giving others the benefit of the doubt.
That kind of hypersensitivity is just as judgemental in it's own way.
I so agree!!
reAllytee
21-07-2009, 18:52
Well it's either people get killed or people of "Middle eastern appearance" are inconvenienced.
:eek:
Wow.
Ok.
Deserama
21-07-2009, 18:53
Fair enough. I have a good idea as well, actually. Men are statistically more likely to be in possession of child pornography. Let's issue warrants to police to check men's computers, just in case. It's either children are offended against, or men are inconvenienced.
I don't think my dh would have a problem with it...he has nothing to hide...if it means getting more of those scumbags off the streets and into HIS custody...then go for it!!!
Unfortunately, Desarama, the government is on your side, anyway.
I'm kinda thinking that shopping centre and all the employees and politicians at parliament house wouldn't think it unfortunate. Although I reckon some would love to see it differently...to get rid of the pollies LOL :laughing:
Deserama
21-07-2009, 18:55
:eek:
Wow.
Ok.
So you'd rather see people killed then? Because it could have happened...I don't know where you live but apparantly this shopping centre was in Sydney.
Well it's either people get killed or people of "Middle eastern appearance" are inconvenienced.
Fair enough. I have a good idea as well, actually. Men are statistically more likely to be in possession of child pornography. Let's issue warrants to police to check men's computers, just in case. It's either children are offended against, or men are inconvenienced.
Unfortunately, Desarama, the government is on your side, anyway.
:laughing:
oh boy.. I was getting hot under the collar reading this thread! thanks for that wonderful wonderful use of sarcasm MsMummy! .. who says it's the lowest form of wit?.. I found that pretty darn witty!
and FFS! of course it is racist to make unnecessary comment on a persons racial descent!! that doesn't mean you can never mention a race or ethnicity!
for eg:
"that Chinese baby is cute" is racist...UNLESS perhaps there was a group of babies and the person making the comment was trying to differentiate. HOWEVER... it is still not a nice way to do that! perhaps "the baby in the purple top is cute" would be well... just nicer! If there is only one baby there is no reason not to just say "That baby is cute".
"Sandra's background is Malaysian" is not racist.
can people SERIOUSLY not see the difference??
I don't think my dh would have a problem with it...he has nothing to hide...if it means getting more of those scumbags off the streets and into HIS custody...then go for it!!!
I'm kinda thinking that shopping centre and all the employees and politicians at parliament house wouldn't think it unfortunate. Although I reckon some would love to see it differently...to get rid of the pollies LOL :laughing:
Does your partner speak for every person with that skin complexion?
It's a very slippery slope once we start giving up equality and civil liberties for "our safety". Temple gave some good examples in their post above.
:laughing:
oh boy.. I was getting hot under the collar reading this thread! thanks for that wonderful wonderful use of sarcasm MsMummy! .. who says it's the lowest form of wit?.. I found that pretty darn witty!
and FFS! of course it is racist to make unnecessary comment on a persons racial descent!! that doesn't mean you can never mention a race or ethnicity!
for eg:
"that Chinese baby is cute" is racist...UNLESS perhaps there was a group of babies and the person making the comment was trying to differentiate. HOWEVER... it is still not a nice way to do that! perhaps "the baby in the purple top is cute" would be well... just nicer! If there is only one baby there is no reason not to just say "That baby is cute".
"Sandra's background is Malaysian" is not racist.
can people SERIOUSLY not see the difference??
No Jag. I really do not think that some people can see the difference:(.
It makes me so angry that some people can be so blind:mad:.
MountainGirl
21-07-2009, 19:06
Dont rag on my old job. It is random. Get that random!!!! We just pick the next person that comes through the metal detectors. Some guards will just randomly grab a bag of the belt and ask whoes it is. Just because you don't like getting tested don't rag on someone else job and call them racist because of what they do. At the airport that i used to work at, 3/4's of the security staff had english as a second language. On my team i had 2 mohammeds, a thor, a krishtani, a duncan, an alexander and a fung. I was the only one who had english as a first language.
How about we just call all accountants racist?:no:
Random??? Really???? Then how come my husband (who travels on a British passport, but who looks a little middle eastern and who has 50+ stamps from Middle eastern countries) ALWAYS gets picked out of the crowd,...ALWAYS gets separated from me, and who ALWAYS gets the full once over!,..whereas I am always told to move on through,....:rolleyes: sorry,..but it is so not random.
Deserama
21-07-2009, 19:07
Does your partner speak for every person with that skin complexion?
He doesn't speak for anyone but himself...but he certainly has a point don't you think?
It's a very slippery slope once we start giving up equality and civil liberties for "our safety". Temple gave some good examples in their post above.
Well...maybe if you were the one threatened by said bomb....you'd be thanking your lucky stars right about now. And I'm pretty sure there would have been those who were of "middle eastern" background who would have been shopping that day...or perhaps they were working in the twin towers???? They're safety was at stake too.
sockstealingpoltergeist
21-07-2009, 19:10
:laughing:
oh boy.. I was getting hot under the collar reading this thread! thanks for that wonderful wonderful use of sarcasm MsMummy! .. who says it's the lowest form of wit?.. I found that pretty darn witty!
and FFS! of course it is racist to make unnecessary comment on a persons racial descent!! that doesn't mean you can never mention a race or ethnicity!
for eg:
"that Chinese baby is cute" is racist...UNLESS perhaps there was a group of babies and the person making the comment was trying to differentiate. HOWEVER... it is still not a nice way to do that! perhaps "the baby in the purple top is cute" would be well... just nicer! If there is only one baby there is no reason not to just say "That baby is cute".
"Sandra's background is Malaysian" is not racist.
can people SERIOUSLY not see the difference??
I'm perplexed also:confused:, the difference is glaringly obvious to me.
I wonder how all of the people would feel if they were of middle eastern appearence.
Random??? Really???? Then how come my husband (who travels on a British passport, but who looks a little middle eastern and who has 50+ stamps from Middle eastern countries) ALWAYS gets picked out of the crowd,...ALWAYS gets separated from me, and who ALWAYS gets the full once over!,..whereas I am always told to move on through,....:rolleyes: sorry,..but it is so not random.
I do think it is random, i got picked to get the test done on me when i walked through the Darwin airport, 6mths pregnant. I had to take my shoes off and everything, :laughing: i think i gave a few people a good laugh that day :laughing:
He doesn't speak for anyone but himself...but he certainly has a point don't you think?
Well...maybe if you were the one threatened by said bomb....you'd be thanking your lucky stars right about now. And I'm pretty sure there would have been those who were of "middle eastern" background who would have been shopping that day...or perhaps they were working in the twin towers???? They're safety was at stake too.
And I'm sure if you were threatened by said infringements of civil liberties, then you might sing a different tune.
It's simple. I do not support discriminatory policies.
So by what your saying is that I cant mak any comment about how anyone looks. eg African, Asian, Middle easterner but they can call me a blonde bimbo because i am white and things said against people with white skin are not racist!!!!!!!
That is racist!!!!
Of course you can comment how people look, it depends on the way you say it IMO. But sometimes, a person's race, creed, sex, age just don't need to be said and are often said in a way that puts people down.
MountainGirl
21-07-2009, 19:23
I do think it is random, i got picked to get the test done on me when i walked through the Darwin airport, 6mths pregnant. I had to take my shoes off and everything, :laughing: i think i gave a few people a good laugh that day :laughing:
lol,... I have also had that happen.
however,. I do think there is a certain 'type' who is routinely questioned/searched.
With DH,.it happens without fail,.every time we travel,.both interstate and OS,.. that can't be random,...surely. He recognises it is due to the fact that he has lots of travel recorded between middle eastern countries,... he is a target. IMO,..that is racist and uncalled for.
I thought we were talking about being searched etc...in airports?? Are we talking about false imprisonment now???
And evidence is aquired how exactly???
Evidence is collected by procedural police work, not by picking out people of a given cultural background. Surely you are not suggesting just randomly picking people who "look the part" up off the street and detaining them?? THATS what I was refering to, and gave an example of. Someone gave an example of a terrorist cell being found, but wasn't sure if there was evidence used to find them, or just random checking on middle eastern men...
What do you think it is when people are pulled off the street for no reason?
reAllytee
21-07-2009, 19:44
So you'd rather see people killed then? Because it could have happened...I don't know where you live but apparantly this shopping centre was in Sydney.
So I should be scared of all Middle Eastern persons ?!?!?!?
:eek:
And because of that I should then expect them to give up all their civil liberties for a very few minority who do what they do because I am scared :confused:
Really ?
I live in Sydney yes & have done for what 31yrs now & the majority of those years were lived in a very heavily populated area of those of Middle Eastern origins.
Now if in these areas people were searched purely on their appearance ALL would be searched ... Can you imagine the staff it would take for one to do so, could you imagine the TIME it would take to do so & dear God why ?!?!?!?!
Its also hilarious really because I used to work at Sydney Airport when pg with G & the majority of the staff who were doing the searches in an area we used to work were of Middle Eastern origins because they used a particular security firm ... Does that mean they would have to always check each other too ??? I mean how could they trust each other ???
I was ALWAYS checked out of the groups of co-workers, heavily pg & all ... They are random trust me because we had various ethnic backgrounds between us all & besides me everyone was checked randomly without any predjudice. Guess a pg belly may not always be a true pg belly ...
There is another target area we better start watching !
:iagree:
My friend, who is white and married to an aboriginal man, said to me the other day......"I hate it when people think my husband is aboriginal....." :no:
Sorry lovely, i am massively massively sleepy and should be in bed, but why is this racist? She hates it when people think her hubby is aboriginal, but he is aboriginal, so how could she hate it if that's what he is? I'm confuzzled...
I have a Philippino hubby and i call him asian and my kiddies are half asian? So if i said i hate it when people think my husband is asian, i'd be like huh? He is asian... Is that racist? I love that they have mixed backgrounds i'm proud of it, is that incorrect to say that? :o
No it is a statistical fact, as a white women I enjoy privelages that many other non white people don't get purely because of the colour of my skin. What?
As have I, I too have blonde hair. However i know I'm not dumb and I can dye my hair at any time. It isn't right however it is not racism and to make that comparison is ludicrous to me. It's actually more to do with patriarchy, whioch is opression of women. So would it be okay for me to call a person with an Afro a Fuzzy Wuzzy?
So do I, however I have never experienced that compounded by racism as well. Imagine this you can never escape your oppressed race ever. You can't marry out of it, you can't work your way out of it you can't study out of it etc etc. But I do agree women are oppressed too.
Why would anyone want to escape who they are? The way you talk about other races makes you sound more like a racist than anyone.
Morrigan the things you say tell me that you don't have empathy and you don't get it.l
I dont have empathy for emotional over-kill not at all! I have nothing against people referring to another person with regards to their race or religion provided it is done in a non-discriminatory way.:no:
You are wrong IMO, Working class mum gave some great examples of why it is racist.
I see and hear it all the time, people talk of their interactions with people. No mention of their race if they are white people, yet many people mention their race when it is not relevant if they are of a minority race. That makes it racist.
May not be relevant to you, but it may be to the person that is saying it. everyone's brain works differently! I may say red car, you may say the car.. I think you are asking too much.. You make no common sense to the average person.
Oh I am sure you do:rolleyes:.
Frankly no I didnt, and i am starting to feel grateful I dont.. doesnt sound like it would be worth understanding judging by your sarcasm
I don't think my dh would have a problem with it...he has nothing to hide...if it means getting more of those scumbags off the streets and into HIS custody...then go for it!!!
That is because your DH has common sense!
No Jag. I really do not think that some people can see the difference:(.
It makes me so angry that some people can be so blind:mad:.
Yeah we see what you are saying... Dont describe a person by their race or religion it is racist.. we get that is what you think and we understand it is because you feel it is irrelevent to point out their race because it differentiates them in some way.. after all we are a humans :ecomcity:
What you dont get is that some of us do not agree with you guys because we find that overly-emotive and ridiculous.
Deserama
21-07-2009, 20:00
And I'm sure if you were threatened by said infringements of civil liberties, then you might sing a different tune.
How is it an infringement of civil liberties being checked at an airport?
It's simple. I do not support discriminatory policies.
Neither do I. But I don't support terrorism either and unfortunately...terrorist attacks are more damaging...so that gets priority over someone's feelings.
sockstealingpoltergeist
21-07-2009, 20:08
What?
So would it be okay for me to call a person with an Afro a Fuzzy Wuzzy?
Why would anyone want to escape who they are? The way you talk about other races makes you sound more like a racist than anyone.
I dont have empathy for emotional over-kill not at all! I have nothing against people referring to another person with regards to their race or religion provided it is done in a non-discriminatory way.:no:
May not be relevant to you, but it may be to the person that is saying it. everyone's brain works differently! I may say red car, you may say the car.. I think you are asking too much.. You make no common sense to the average person.
Frankly no I didnt, and i am starting to feel grateful I dont.. doesnt sound like it would be worth understanding judging by your sarcasm
That is because your DH has common sense!
Yeah we see what you are saying... Dont describe a person by their race or religion it is racist.. we get that is what you think and we understand it is because you feel it is irrelevent to point out their race because it differentiates them in some way.. after all we are a humans :ecomcity:
What you dont get is that some of us do not agree with you guys because we find that overly-emotive and ridiculous.
Morrigan you seriously do not make sense.
Mummaholic
21-07-2009, 20:11
What you dont get is that some of us do not agree with you guys because we find that overly-emotive and ridiculous.
And some see you as insensitive and offensive. How is your beration of others because they disagree with you in threads helping the situation?
Deserama
21-07-2009, 20:14
Evidence is collected by procedural police work, not by picking out people of a given cultural background. Surely you are not suggesting just randomly picking people who "look the part" up off the street and detaining them??
Yes and sometimes the procedural police work starts at the gates of an airport. Where someone is searched and luggage searched and something is found that should not be there...THEN they are detained. Or do you believe that they let them go perhaps? Let them on the planes...."Hey good luck everyone but I don't want to be a racist soooo....you are all gonna die".
THATS what I was refering to, and gave an example of. Someone gave an example of a terrorist cell being found, but wasn't sure if there was evidence used to find them, or just random checking on middle eastern men...
That someone was me. I don't know how that cell was found...but my guess is it was either an informent/tip off...or...one of those "random" searches at an airport, and considering they were in Bris and planing to go to Sydney then I suspect it was the latter rather than the former.
What would have happened if they were not searched because someone didn't want to hurt someone elses feelings??
What would have happened you think??? Well?
What do you think it is when people are pulled off the street for no reason?
Who's pulling who off the street?
sockstealingpoltergeist
21-07-2009, 20:15
And some see you as insensitive and offensive. How is your beration of others because they disagree with you in threads helping the situation?
:iagree:
And some see you as insensitive and offensive. How is your beration of others because they disagree with you in threads helping the situation?
It is not beration (is that a word?) to defend oneself by being accused of racism. :no: and explaining why!
Morrigan you seriously do not make sense.
Obviously NOT.. because I am talking common sense! :yes:
How is it an infringement of civil liberties being checked at an airport?
Neither do I. But I don't support terrorism either and unfortunately...terrorist attacks are more damaging...so that gets priority over someone's feelings.
Subjecting one racial group to more extensive and invasive searches is unduly interfering with their rights.
Above all, it's discriminatory.
It's not the feelings that are the problem, it's their rights.
I guess we just have to agree to disagree, as you are willing to give up the rights of some to protect the safety of the group, whereas I am not. It's a fundamental philosophical difference.
Deserama
21-07-2009, 20:24
So I should be scared of all Middle Eastern persons ?!?!?!?
If you want to be.
And because of that I should then expect them to give up all their civil liberties for a very few minority who do what they do because I am scared :confused:
So being checked at an airport is giving up of civil liberties??
I live in Sydney yes & have done for what 31yrs now & the majority of those years were lived in a very heavily populated area of those of Middle Eastern origins.
Now if in these areas people were searched purely on their appearance ALL would be searched ... Can you imagine the staff it would take for one to do so, could you imagine the TIME it would take to do so & dear God why ?!?!?!?!
You're missing the point...I wonder if it was the supermarket that you frequent that was the target...hmmm I wonder. And now those people are behind bars...and it could very well be because someone decided one day to err on the side of caution and check someone based on their looks.
Its also hilarious really because I used to work at Sydney Airport when pg with G & the majority of the staff who were doing the searches in an area we used to work were of Middle Eastern origins because they used a particular security firm ... Does that mean they would have to always check each other too ??? I mean how could they trust each other ???
Dunno...maybe background checks that all employees have to go through? Maybe you can answer the OP's question then...is it really random???
I was ALWAYS checked out of the groups of co-workers, heavily pg & all ... They are random trust me because we had various ethnic backgrounds between us all & besides me everyone was checked randomly without any predjudice. Guess a pg belly may not always be a true pg belly ...
Then the OP shouldn't have anything to worry about.
There is another target area we better start watching !
Why are there caucasion pregnant women, terrorist cells out there???
sockstealingpoltergeist
21-07-2009, 20:24
Obviously NOT.. because I am talking common sense! :yes:
Comman sense = a collective belief. Collective beliefs are very often wrong, thus so is comman sense.
The majority of people believe what they see on ACA or Paranioa tonight, they see what they believe to be the truth because it is reflected in the attitides of society around them
If you were brain washed would you have any idea? (to coin a phrase from your AV morrigan)
The majority of people are brought up with ideas and social norms, they swallow these and they are repeted through out their lives, they become as familiar as breathing and can be seen to be comman sense.
Problem is they just arn't true.
Comman sense = a collective belief. Collective beliefs are very often wrong, thus so is comman sense.
The majority of people believe what they see on ACA or Paranioa tonight, they see what they believe to be the truth because it is reflected in the attitides of society around them
If you were brain washed would you have any idea? (to coin a phrase from your AV morrigan)
The majority of people are brought up with ideas and social norms, they swallow these and they are repeted through out their lives, they become as familiar as breathing and can be seen to be comman sense.
Problem is they just arn't true.
and I think you are brain washed by the politically correct collective.. so I guess we are both wasting our time.
Sorry lovely, i am massively massively sleepy and should be in bed, but why is this racist? She hates it when people think her hubby is aboriginal, but he is aboriginal, so how could she hate it if that's what he is? I'm confuzzled...
I have a Philippino hubby and i call him asian and my kiddies are half asian? So if i said i hate it when people think my husband is asian, i'd be like huh? He is asian... Is that racist? I love that they have mixed backgrounds i'm proud of it, is that incorrect to say that? :o
Now my head is spinning :dizzy: hahaha.
Um, well....hmm, her husband is aboriginal, no mistaking it....but she is racist because she does not want people to think he lives in Cherbourg basically ....she told me she thinks he looks 'Islander' and hates it when people think he is aboriginal....some issues there, yeah.....:dizzy:
I guess, she has preconceived ideas of what aboriginal people are like so doesn't like her husband to be seen as one....even though she married and had children with him....maybe it is everyone else's racism that she is reacting to....argh, I dunno! :dizzy: It doesn't really make sense!
sockstealingpoltergeist
21-07-2009, 20:30
and I think you are brain washed by the politically correct collective.. so I guess we are both wasting our time.
Awsome, thouh that would have been hard, becauseIi have to seek out others with similer views, they are not all around me unlike the racist sexist masses we see in Australia. It's why I like the Hub it is rare to find like minded people and have decent discussion.
I also had to read widely to form my opinion, and stop listening to the social norms. I have to reflect on everything I see and hear and not just accept it to be true because the majority say so.
I am feeling very enlightened. Very far from the brain washed person I once was untill I started questioning things at the age of 10 or 11.
Lillynix
21-07-2009, 20:31
Deserama - I am just utterly shocked and appalled at your blatant racisim in this thread! Totally and utterly gobsmacked :eek:
Deserama
21-07-2009, 20:34
Subjecting one racial group to more extensive and invasive searches is unduly interfering with their rights.
Above all, it's discriminatory.
It's not the feelings that are the problem, it's their rights.
Ok well I think its about feelings and inconvenience rather than rights...so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one too.
I guess we just have to agree to disagree, as you are willing to give up the rights of some to protect the safety of the group, whereas I am not. It's a fundamental philosophical difference.
Well I would say that that would be selfish if it were me doing that...not willing to sacrifice my comfort for the greater good. But it's not me so I guess it's easy for me to say that, sitting here at my computer huh.
Look...it sucks I know...but terrorism sucks too. And I had no idea that this was still such a big problem until my dh started working at the watchouse and became privy to certain information. Maybe I was naive...I just thought it was an american problem sperred on by 9/11. I just thought there was a bit of hysteria going on there...a tad. Trust me...it's not.
reAllytee
21-07-2009, 20:37
If you want to be.
So being checked at an airport is giving up of civil liberties??
You're missing the point...I wonder if it was the supermarket that you frequent that was the target...hmmm I wonder. And now those people are behind bars...and it could very well be because someone decided one day to err on the side of caution and check someone based on their looks.
I could walk out my front door & get run over by a truck .... So should I never leave my house ????
Then the OP shouldn't have anything to worry about.
I think the OP has LOADS to worry about when there are many of the comments like your own being thrown around.
Why are there caucasion pregnant women, terrorist cells out there???
Well many do smuggle drugs this way ... I mean if we are going to target one group why not another ???
I mean where do we stop exactly ????
You do realise white caucasians are terrorosts right ? Back before 911 the IRA certainly werent biased in their terrorist efforts.
Funny how we didnt run around freaking out at Irish people walking into shopping centres etc.
Now my head is spinning :dizzy: hahaha.
Um, well....hmm, her husband is aboriginal, no mistaking it....but she is racist because she does not want people to think he lives in Cherbourg basically ....she told me she thinks he looks 'Islander' and hates it when people think he is aboriginal....some issues there, yeah.....:dizzy:
I guess, she has preconceived ideas of what aboriginal people are like so doesn't like her husband to be seen as one....even though she married and had children with him....maybe it is everyone else's racism that she is reacting to....argh, I dunno! :dizzy: It doesn't really make sense!
Ah, thanks for explaining that, that's what i thought, i was like how could she hate it, she must seriously be in denial then, that's truly sad. :(
Deserama
21-07-2009, 20:39
Deserama - I am just utterly shocked and appalled at your blatant racisim in this thread! Totally and utterly gobsmacked :eek:
Probably as gobsmacked as I am at the selfish and lack of common sense then yeh?
Oh well.
You can call me racist all you like, that doesn't make it so.
sockstealingpoltergeist
21-07-2009, 20:40
I could walk out my front door & get run over by a truck .... So should I never leave my house ????
I think the OP has LOADS to worry about when there are many of the comments like your own being thrown around.
Well many do smuggle drugs this way ... I mean if we are going to target one group why not another ???
I mean where do we stop exactly ????
You do realise white caucasians are terrorosts right ? Back before 911 the IRA certainly werent biased in their terrorist efforts.
Funny how we didnt run around freaking out at Irish people walking into shopping centres etc.
:iagree:
How about we go beating down the doors of all Christians just in case they are prolife crazies who want to bomb someone.?
Would that be cool, would your family be cool with that? Or would that be discrimination?
Well I would say that that would be selfish if it were me doing that...not willing to sacrifice my comfort for the greater good. But it's not me so I guess it's easy for me to say that, sitting here at my computer huh.
Look...it sucks I know...but terrorism sucks too. And I had no idea that this was still such a big problem until my dh started working at the watchouse and became privy to certain information. Maybe I was naive...I just thought it was an american problem sperred on by 9/11. I just thought there was a bit of hysteria going on there...a tad. Trust me...it's not.
(my bolding for relevant bits to my response)
Well, I'm not actually sacrificing my comfort. I'm a white Australian. But I'm not willing to give up the rights of others.
And that was the government's refrain when rushing through the anti-terrorist legislation "Trust us, we know things that you don't...". Sounds familiar. Not unlike the "trust us, they have nuclear weapons" which was the justification for the 2003 Iraqi invasion.
Probably as gobsmacked as I am at the selfish and lack of common sense then yeh?
Oh well.
You can call me racist all you like, that doesn't make it so.
:hugs: you are not racist lovely... you know that.. I know that and thank God a vast majority of socially sensitive, multicultural, caring human beings think the same way...
Ah, thanks for explaining that, that's what i thought, i was like how could she hate it, she must seriously be in denial then, that's truly sad. :(
Yeah, denial :yes:....it also goes to show the racist attitudes out here where we live.....that people think so badly of the people who live in one particular community that they in no way want to be associated with them....
Probably as gobsmacked as I am at the selfish and lack of common sense then yeh?
Oh well.
You can call me racist all you like, that doesn't make it so.
I don't understand the "selfish" bit.
Actually, I don't think we ever clarified what sort of screening you think should occur.
To clarify, do you think that all people of Middle Eastern appearance should be subjected to more rigorous screening at airports?
Are there any similiar proposals you have to catch potential terrorists?
Deserama
21-07-2009, 20:46
I could walk out my front door & get run over by a truck .... So should I never leave my house ????
There are authorities out there who are looking out for your @ss...I think you should be more grateful, don't you??? Because of them you CAN go shopping at your local supermarket without fear of it being threatened by some crazed loon. I guess not....maybe they should let these freaks go then? Would you like that?
I think the OP has LOADS to worry about when there are many of the comments like your own being thrown around.
Why?
Well many do smuggle drugs this way ... I mean if we are going to target one group why not another ???
I'm talking about terrorism...If every single terrorist was a white pregnant women...then I would have not problem being stopped at an airport if it meant that the next pregnant women after me who WAS a terrorist was stopped too.
I mean where do we stop exactly ????
I think it's suficient the way it is...the job's getting done, that's why that supermarket wasn't blown up and parliment house is still standing.
You do realise white caucasians are terrorosts right ? Back before 911 the IRA certainly werent biased in their terrorist efforts.
Really? How many? One? Yes apparantly he's in guantanamo, which apparently has better medical than all those who worked at ground zero...according to Michael Moore anyway.
Funny how we didnt run around freaking out at Irish people walking into shopping centres etc.
Why who's freaking out about people walking into shopping centres???
Deserama
21-07-2009, 20:48
I don't understand the "selfish" bit.
Actually, I don't think we ever clarified what sort of screening you think should occur.
To clarify, do you think that all people of Middle Eastern appearance should be subjected to more rigorous screening at airports?
Are there any similiar proposals you have to catch potential terrorists?
Nah I think they're doing a pretty good job as it is really. There hasn't been any bombings has there?
Nah I think it's pretty good :)
Mummaholic
21-07-2009, 20:50
Really? How many? One? Yes apparantly he's in guantanamo, which apparently has better medical than all those who worked at ground zero...according to Michael Moore anyway.
No, pp was referring to the IRA...have you not heard of them???
Nah I think they're doing a pretty good job as it is really. There hasn't been any bombings has there?
Nah I think it's pretty good :)
Oh, then the whole argument was a bit academic then, as apparently the current screening process is random, so you're not actually proposing a discriminatory screening process.
Deserama
21-07-2009, 20:54
(my bolding for relevant bits to my response)
Well, I'm not actually sacrificing my comfort. I'm a white Australian. But I'm not willing to give up the rights of others.
Ok.
And that was the government's refrain when rushing through the anti-terrorist legislation "Trust us, we know things that you don't...". Sounds familiar. Not unlike the "trust us, they have nuclear weapons" which was the justification for the 2003 Iraqi invasion.
Oh look don't get me started on the iraq war...my BIL came back home from there a total mess...and for what purpose???? He's still in psych treatment...poor bloke! But enough of that red herring...
Terrorism...yeh...um...well I guess we don't have a choice but to trust them unfortunately. And because of some bad apples...so many people have to be treated unfairly to keep us all safe. So far it's working...thank God. And I hope it continues to work.
sockstealingpoltergeist
21-07-2009, 20:54
:hugs: you are not racist lovely... you know that.. I know that and thank God a vast majority of socially sensitive, multicultural, caring human beings think the same way...
Multicultural.:laughing: Your so funny Morrigan.
Do you know what!
The world will be truly non-racist when we can talk openly with one another about being different races and not pretend, for fear of offending, that we dont notice!
Deserama
21-07-2009, 20:57
:hugs: you are not racist lovely... you know that.. I know that and thank God a vast majority of socially sensitive, multicultural, caring human beings think the same way...
Oh I'm not worried. I know who I am. I couldn't care less what people think. Meh. Racism is relative by the looks anyway.
sockstealingpoltergeist
21-07-2009, 20:57
Do you know what!
The world will be truly non-racist when we can talk openly with one another about being different races and not pretend, for fear of offending, that we dont notice!
:confused: If you have to pretend then you are racist and hiding it.
No, pp was referring to the IRA...have you not heard of them???
I was going to write the same thing :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
Deserama
21-07-2009, 20:58
Do you know what!
The world will be truly non-racist when we can talk openly with one another about being different races and not pretend, for fear of offending, that we dont notice!
Wow! That's profound! Very profound indeed!
Mummaholic
21-07-2009, 20:58
I was going to write the same thing
:thumbsup:
:confused: If you have to pretend then you are racist and hiding it.
exactly according to your rules! :cool: And I dont believe for one moment you dont notice the ebony black african in the middle of an all white shopping centre either.
Deserama
21-07-2009, 21:00
No, pp was referring to the IRA...have you not heard of them???
Oh sorry...I thought she was referring to that David bloke...you know, whatshisname.
wow
:(
just wow
(sorry for a not very useful post here.. just felt the need to express that)
Mummaholic
21-07-2009, 21:05
wow
:(
just wow
(sorry for a not very useful post here.. just felt the need to express that)
I know :(
wow
:(
just wow
(sorry for a not very useful post here.. just felt the need to express that)
:iagree:
I am lost for words too
sockstealingpoltergeist
21-07-2009, 21:06
exactly according to your rules! :cool: And I dont believe for one moment you dont notice the ebony black african in the middle of an all white shopping centre either.
I tend to notice bigots an racists. I tend to notice prejudice attitudes. If you like you can ask my friends and family and ask what I do in my every day life, a few of my IRL friends are on here. I don't other people.
sockstealingpoltergeist
21-07-2009, 21:07
wow
:(
just wow
(sorry for a not very useful post here.. just felt the need to express that)
:hugs: I know.
Yeah, denial :yes:....it also goes to show the racist attitudes out here where we live.....that people think so badly of the people who live in one particular community that they in no way want to be associated with them....
That is truly sad. :(
Deserarma - David Hicks perhaps? He aint the IRA :laughing: ...
Will close this thread now, thanks to those that contributed and helped answer the OP's question.
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