View Full Version : The Death Penalty For some cases yes/no
I know this is a very touchy subject for some, and by no means am i
trying to offend in peoples beliefs / offend in general and cause any arguments :no:
mearly asking for opinions and comments especially after todays news about the little girl who was murdered and the terrible news of the 11yro
I ( in my opinion) would welcome the death penalty back if you could prove 100% guilty of the crime in question. serious ones im talking about
why should these people have the life of lux and do it a tax payers expense, more important ruin a familys life / someones life for ever.
Sorry for the rant, but watching the news today has made me and im sure you all sad and angry!:mad: :crying:
EskimoMumma
27-06-2006, 17:59
Yesi would fully support.
Would help prisons that are nearing capicity.
SamanthaJane
27-06-2006, 18:06
100% prove its guilty - yes, in my opinion, i'd welcome it back.
If you kill an innocent victim for the sheer pleasure of it, then you yourself, should lose your life. To me, that is pure evil.
JMO
Sara's Boys
27-06-2006, 18:08
Yes, and I wish it applied to the 21 year old who is being charged with the murder and rape of an 8 year old girl in perth yesterday. No one can give me a reason why that sick f#$% should even get to breath.
100% prove its guilty - yes, in my opinion, i'd welcome it back.
If you kill an innocent victim for the sheer pleasure of it, then you yourself, should lose your life. To me, that is pure evil.
JMO
yes i back it up to. spot on!!
No. Because I don't believe that you should kill anyone.
A very wise man once said an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
Yes, there are horrendous crimes committed sometimes and they are heartbreaking and awful and they shouldn't happen and the offender should be punished but this doesn't mean that those people should be killed. Capital punishment is, in effect, the state sanctioning violence. It gives the message that killing someone is an appropriate solution to a problem.
It isn't a deterent. All you have to do is look at murder rates in places like the USA to see that having the death penalty does not discourage people from committing murder at all.
And you talk about being 100% certain that the person committed the crime, how can you possibly draw the line there - who decides whether or not it is 100% certain? Innocent people have been sentenced to death, it has happened and it still happens.
So, it isn't a deterrant, it is an illogical punishment and you cannot be certain that you aren't killing an innocent person.
So, no, not acceptable.
I know its was in the news that a pedo that was a friend of the family in england befriended the fam, looked after the girl gained her trust,,, raped her and scared her for life...he got 3 years!!!!!!! come on the system is Shocking:mad: ...the little girl in question was 3 years old(doesn't matter what age) its pure evil!!! sick if any one did that to my child..instinct i would kill them point blank...id serve time happily! knowing they were six feet under not having a cushy life in prison:mad: :mad:
Yep, bring it back I say!! Maybe some people would think twice before murdering and raping another person, eg. the 8 year old girl. Should do to them exactly what they did to someone else. Make them suffer :devil6: Sick f***s!!
What do you think about the two 16 yr olds that killed the 15 yr old. should they get the death penalty?
pestiferous
27-06-2006, 18:24
No, i don't believe the death penalty should be reinstated.
I think prison is a suitable punishment and the length of time one serves (should) reflect the degree of crime.
The death penalty is nothing more than an easy way out, both for the criminal and society in general.
If we wish to live by the eye for an eye argument are we then willing to allow the family of the criminal to kill the judge who condemned them to death, can the son of the criminal killed, then kill the parent of the original victim?
NO man has the right to kill
If they did, we wouldn't be asking this question now, would we?
I am for it. If you can take a life then why should your life be any more important that the life you took. I believe it is a deterent of some sort.
No. Because I don't believe that you should kill anyone.
A very wise man once said an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
Yes, there are horrendous crimes committed sometimes and they are heartbreaking and awful and they shouldn't happen and the offender should be punished but this doesn't mean that those people should be killed. Capital punishment is, in effect, the state sanctioning violence. It gives the message that killing someone is an appropriate solution to a problem.
It isn't a deterent. All you have to do is look at murder rates in places like the USA to see that having the death penalty does not discourage people from committing murder at all.
And you talk about being 100% certain that the person committed the crime, how can you possibly draw the line there - who decides whether or not it is 100% certain? Innocent people have been sentenced to death, it has happened and it still happens.
So, it isn't a deterrant, it is an illogical punishment and you cannot be certain that you aren't killing an innocent person.
So, no, not acceptable.
I said 100% DNA proof, life for life....not a chushy jail sell with tv, on suite batherooms that they get now...if it were your child you would want justice..just my opinion XX
Mamaduke
27-06-2006, 18:27
Brace yourself bron....
I agree with you!!!!
There is always a level of doubt to a person's guilt/innocence, and while there is the 'jury of your peers' system, I just couldn't support the death penalty - what if they're wrong - I've seen some pretty big morons sitting on juries deciding on people's futures.
The fact that in this country (and alot of others) guilt/innocence does seem to depend on how many zeros you've written on your lawyer's cheque - legal aid is an absolute joke and you can't have people being found guilty and killed because they couldn't afford decent legal representation.
In saying that though, if someone did something to my boys....put it this way, I wouldn't be getting legal aid!
No, I don't believe in the death penalty for the reasons Bron and Pestiferous have already stated.
That said, I think people who commit heinous crimes should be put in jail for life - they are a danger to society and should be treated as such.
Brace yourself bron....
I agree with you!!!!
:eek: :eek:
*bron drags herself up off the floor where she fell because of shock* :laughing:
Good for you duke! xxx
Ana Gram
27-06-2006, 18:30
No I cannot support the death penalty being reinstated in Australia. The death penalty is not a deterrant to commit crimes, and it doesn't bring the victim back to life. Prison is not a life of luxury or a holiday camp.
I simply don't understand the logic of killing someone for killing someone. that makes us just as bad as the person who killed someone.
Mamaduke
27-06-2006, 18:31
Thought you'd get a shock out of that bron!;)
SamanthaJane
27-06-2006, 18:32
Yep, bring it back I say!! Maybe some people would think twice before murdering and raping another person, eg. the 8 year old girl. Should do to them exactly what they did to someone else. Make them suffer :devil6: Sick f***s!!
I agree Cinta!
Two wrongs dont make a right, thats all fair and true, but these people show no mercy to their victims. Treat others the way you would like to be treated. If you kill out of pure evil, for no other reason than u find some sick pleasure from it, u deserve to be killed. You are taking away an innocent victims right to live. JUST MY OPINION!
Mamaduke
27-06-2006, 18:34
The death penalty is not a deterrent...
if that was the case then the U.S.A would not have murderers, peadophiles & rapists.
And Bali wouldn't have drug traffickers.
Sara's Boys
27-06-2006, 18:34
"I simply don't understand the logic of killing someone for killing someone. that makes us just as bad as the person who killed someone."
Maybe because no one has raped and murdered your 8 year old,it doesn't make sense, but I am sure it makes sense to a lot of parents of children who arevictims of horendous crime. It hasn't happened to my child, but I can understand it. Sure, it won't bring the life lost back, but nothing will...why should they have the pleasure of a breath.
SamanthaJane
27-06-2006, 18:35
Maybe because no one has raped and murdered your 8 year old,it doesn't make sense, but I am sure it makes sense to a lot of parents of children who arevictims of horendous crime. It hasn't happened to my child, but I can understand it. Sure, it won't bring the life lost back, but nothing will...why should they have the pleasure of a breath.
Very true, i do agree:yes:
YES!I would want it brought back.
altho 2 wrongs dont make a right,I think a killer should lose his life too.
they get it too easy in prison,they are still alive,their family can still visit them.victims just dont get that option!:no:
Sara's Boys
27-06-2006, 18:40
Thanks, I still cry when I think of the little english toddler who was abused tortured, and had unspeakable things done to him. He had had paint rubbed into his eyes, batteries put in his anus and left for dead. A TODDLER. Two evil people did this, and they are going to be out in the public, possibly in australia. If there was a death penalty, they would never be a threat. While people clain death penalty is a deterant, do they realise that most sexually based criminals, wil NEVER rehabilitate? So they should be gone. That poor boy, would have been crying for mummy in his last hours. To me its only fair they die. They are getting a second chance? where is the little boys chance?
SamanthaJane
27-06-2006, 18:42
They are getting a second chance? where is the little boys chance?
That is so true! I know prison isnt some snazzy motel and they are locked away, but they are still living, they are still breathing, they are still remaining in human contact. Where are their innocent victims while this is happening?? Gone, dead, buried. Never to be seen or heard from again.
Thanks, I still cry when I think of the little english toddler who was abused tortured, and had unspeakable things done to him. He had had paint rubbed into his eyes, batteries put in his anus and left for dead. A TODDLER. Two evil people did this, and they are going to be out in the public, possibly in australia. If there was a death penalty, they would never be a threat. While people clain death penalty is a deterant, do they realise that most sexually based criminals, wil NEVER rehabilitate? So they should be gone. That poor boy, would have been crying for mummy in his last hours. To me its only fair they die. They are getting a second chance? where is the little boys chance?
I assume you are referring to the toddler who was murdered by two boys who were maybe 12 at the time. Only the most ******** countries have the death penalty for children who commit crimes. That is a truely terrifying thought.
I don't support it in any circumstances, but I'd be willing to bet that even most advocates for the death penalty wouldn't agree with the death penalty for child offenders.
if they rotted in jail then yeah...but they dont!:mad: they get a cushy life, tv, games, snooker, etc,
they should have a cell, a bucket and a matress in the corner of the floor.. like they did in the old days... years ago and there was not so much crime in those days im tallking 20 years ago....that to me is a punishment not what they get these days for murder pre thought out murder planned and calculated & rape
like i said if some one did that to my child...oh i could go on
Thanks, I still cry when I think of the little english toddler who was abused tortured, and had unspeakable things done to him. He had had paint rubbed into his eyes, batteries put in his anus and left for dead. A TODDLER. Two evil people did this, and they are going to be out in the public, possibly in australia. If there was a death penalty, they would never be a threat. While people clain death penalty is a deterant, do they realise that most sexually based criminals, wil NEVER rehabilitate? So they should be gone. That poor boy, would have been crying for mummy in his last hours. To me its only fair they die. They are getting a second chance? where is the little boys chance?
James bulger
poor little babe
no they are not in oz thank god!....the prime minister refused application:yelclap:
They are out in england and free to rome!:mad:
SamanthaJane
27-06-2006, 18:49
I respect your views bron,
Heres my view on it... yes, they were 12, but they still knew exactly what they were doing, this has been proven. They knew they were commiting an evil act. They knew they were terrorising this little boy. They knew they would be in trouble. Yet they still did it. To me behaviour like this is very odd, and to me it looks like the beginning of 2 very evil men. Though, with that said, every case is different.
To me, the death penalty should not be allowed for those under the age of 16.
But, these boys should not be allowed to walk free with new identities. They should be monitored for the rest of their lives and be made to go to continuous rehabiliation. I dont see how any human being can kill someone in such a horrific way and ever be classed as "sane" again...
Just my opinion:)
Sara's Boys
27-06-2006, 18:49
I don't think that in that particular case that age is even relevent. Those boys planned that attack and carried it out over hours and hours, showing no remorse or sorrow, even long after. I don't think that kind of human no matter how old can not be rehabilitated. An unprovoked planned evil attack on a 2 and half year old. Knowing full well what they were doing and the consequences. Why do they deserve to live out their teens twenties etc.Some people actually ARE pure evil. And the world is better off without them. Obviously this will offend some people, so I won't be posting on this particular thread, because I just don't think any one here can really understand unless it was their child.
Shazbutt
27-06-2006, 18:53
I fully support it....providing the person is proven to be 100% guilty.
candlelover
27-06-2006, 18:54
yes as long as there is no doubt
No, I do not support it under any circumstances, Noone has the right to take the life of another human being.
Illusional
27-06-2006, 19:10
As others have said - I would definately support it only if the offender was proven guilty 100%.
And by this I mean that there would have to be some sort of 'means' test, for lack of a better word, and the offender would have to meet all criterium before being allowed to face the death penalty.
ie: DNA evidence, circumstantial evidence, eye witness accounts, a confession etc (and if someone is dumb enough to confess to something they didnt do - then more fool them)
By no means should it be solely allowed on the basis of circumstantial evidence which so many death penalty convictions have been and still are.
In the USA 123 people in the last 30 years have been found innocent after being sentanced to death.. and that is only those who didnt get executed before it was found out. (that doesnt sound like many - but how would you feel if that was your loved one who had spent the last 20 years on death row only to be found innocent - worse still if they had been executed)
So its not a light topic - and not something that could easily be entered into without a full revamp of the process of sentancing people to death.
MammaMia
27-06-2006, 19:14
I'm with the other OCSCs in lodging a vote against the death penalty.
I abhor the crimes that have been spoken of in this thread. I felt my heart in my throat as I listened to the newsreports regarding the loss of the young girl in Australia. I understand the emotions that underpin the call for the death penalty and like Mamaduke, I have the same sense of fierce protection of the safety and wellbeing of my children.
It should be remembered, however, that our legal system asks juries in criminal trials to reach a verdict beyond reasonable doubt - not beyond any doubt. There is a real difference between the two.
As for DNA, despite the efforts of Hollywood, whilst DNA is a powerful tool - it is not infallible. It rests on the abilities of fallible humans to collect DNA from contaminated crime scenes, test it and analyse it. Even here in Australia we have had convictions which have later been overturned by further DNA testing. Forensic evidence is a great asset - but not an absolute answer.
I wonder if keeping these offenders alive actually speaks more to the vile nature of their crimes - it preserves life at all costs, and reflects the depths to which offenders have gone in taking a life, a sacred life. I would rather they rotted in jail, living a life devoid of purpose, devoid of pleasure, devoid of freedom, and on my better days, hope that one day they realise the true magnititude of their crimes and spend the rest of their days in abject suffering and remorse.
I will never forget a documentary about an African-American man sent to death after being found guilty of a crime. It was after his execution that he was proven to have been innocent of his crime. This example is not isolated and I worry about those that may lose their lives wrongly.
As for the cushie nature of prison - have any of you actually been exposed to prison life? Do you know the things that prisoners do to men and women that have killed other women and children? Even those prisoners in supposedly secure custody. I know many of these examples - and their violence is in many cases gut churning. To live with that level of violence frequently directed at you, never knowing of when your fellow inmates will next strike would be no picnic.
No, I do not support it under any circumstances, Noone has the right to take the life of another human being.
Try telling that to the perpetrators.
The State has a duty to it's citizens. Why should tax payers money go supporting these scums who have no respect for lives? Wonder how many of those against the death penalty would stick to your guns when one of your loved ones are the victims - god forbid.
damn straight up i support this, if proven guilty 100%. just take a look at that beautiful face of the 8 year old who was murdered.
Mister Noodle
27-06-2006, 19:34
Absolutely no support here. Bron pretty much summed up how I feel.
Killing people doesn't make the world a better place. It's *always* bad.
Just imagine watching someone you love get executed. Imagine every second of it, just for a second. Imagine seeing your child dragged to the execution chamber, imagine watching the guards wrestle him into the chair and strap him in. Imagine watching him struggle and scream and cry as they bring the needle closer. Imagine your world being torn apart as his heart stops while they drag you back from the glass. Imagine the hole ripped in your life that could never, ever heal.
Every time a person dies, it's *exactly* that bad. Everyone is someone's son or daughter, or brother or sister, husband or wife, or even just someone's friend. And when they die, that's the unimaginable horror that's visited upon the world. That's how much worse the universe gets.
Every. Single. Time.
If you don't personally feel that horror... who does that reflect on? What have the accused's family or friends or loved ones done to deserve that hell? Has there not been enough death, horror and pain already, that you want to make more?
If you were in the position of watching your child being dragged away to die... would you CARE what he'd done? Would anything at all be bad enough that you could bear it? Wouldn't you be screaming that whatever it was, we can work something out, just DON'T KILL MY SON?
See, I can argue from emotion, too.
On a more rational note... if we value human life so little that we can allow the state to kill people, why impose such a harsh penalty for murder? And if we do value human life so much that the penalty is justified, how can we even contemplate killing anyone?
Sure, the victims want "closure". That's just a pretty word for revenge. Hell, I'd want revenge, as well. If someone hurt anyone I held dear, I'd grab a rusty corkscrew and plan to get really, really creative.
And I hope with every fibre of my being that if it came to that, someone would stop me - because the whole point about murderers and rapists and whatnot is that we're supposed to be better than them. They're the ones that need to follow through on their anger. They're the ones that take revenge. They're the ones that hurt, mail and kill. Not us. Because we're not criminals - they are.
Yes, its sucks. No, it's not fair. No it's not right. Yes, it's a knife in your very soul to know that they're alive while the person you loved isn't. That's. Why. It's. Called. A. Crime.
If we sink to their level... what's our excuse?
Try telling that to the perpetrators.
The State has a duty to it's citizens. Why should tax payers money go supporting these scums who have no respect for lives? Wonder how many of those against the death penalty would stick to your guns when one of your loved ones are the victims - god forbid.
Imo two wrongs do not make a right, what sort of society would we live in if every abhorrent, violent act was 'payed back' with another unspeakable act? What sort of message are we sending out as a nation if we scream for the blood of those who have shed blood?
'Its not ok for you, but its ok for us' ?
Mr Noodle~ Bravo.
MammaMia
27-06-2006, 19:36
Mister Noodle - my hat is off to your well stated view of capital punishment. I'll be joining you on the high moral ground over the cesspool of murderers below.
Mister Noodle
27-06-2006, 19:40
And fwiw: I would absolutely stand up and plead for clemency, if it were my loved ones that were the victims.
No way would I allow anyone to cheapen my grief and turn it into petty revenge. Throw them in jail forever, fine. No problem. But kill them and you make me party to murder, and you take away everything.
And fwiw: I would absolutely stand up and plead for clemency, if it were my loved ones that were the victims.
No way would I allow anyone to cheapen my grief and turn it into petty revenge. Throw them in jail forever, fine. No problem. But kill them and you make me party to murder, and you take away everything.
Bravo again :)
I too know that I would never allow myself to sink to the level of the scum of society by demanding that their life be taken in return for what they have done.
sopolicha
27-06-2006, 19:49
I say no, I wouldn't support the return of the death penalty.
I have two questions.
Firstly do you really think people committing horrendous crimes, such as the one over in Perth, think twice before committing the offence. Do they think "I had better stop now, or I will sentenced to death if found guilty?.
Is anyone here actually aware of prison life and what it entails. Or are you just all going on what you hear from John Laws, Alan Jones, and Channels Seven and Nine?
Sara's Boys
27-06-2006, 19:52
And fwiw: I would absolutely stand up and plead for clemency, if it were my loved ones that were the victims.
No way would I allow anyone to cheapen my grief and turn it into petty revenge. Throw them in jail forever, fine. No problem. But kill them and you make me party to murder, and you take away everything.
Thats the problem you see. No one seems to get "forever", just a token amount of time, then they usually get their life, and freedom back, and pose a risk to society once more. Like I mentioned before, sexualy based criminals, particularly invovling minors are unlikely to rehab, most reoffend shorlty after being released.
I will stop posting, I just wondered if people forget , that it's not just about making a crimainal suffer, it's about removing the likliness of the same crimes happening all over again. Removing the threat that we are aware of from innocent law abioding citizens
EskimoMumma
27-06-2006, 19:52
Are you aware??
I am fully aware of what is i like- personally i think prison just isnt enough for crimnals. There needs to be more done
Not sure yet of what that will be though.
I think you will find that most people who commit horrendous crimes are indeed locked up for life, or at least until they are very old. Like sop said, I dont think many people are aware of the harshness of maximum security prison. It is a very severe punishment, it isnt a picnic, and it certainly isnt cushie. There is plenty of information out there on this if anyone is interested.
MammaMia
27-06-2006, 20:01
I'm with Sop - unless you've worked in the system - or served time in maximum security, it's hard to imagine the true nature of custody...really is beyond what you can imagine.
And if capital punishment is about reducing recidivism, which crimes do we decide are worthy of the punishment? And why does the USofA still have such an incredible number of violent crimes if the perpetrators are being exterminated? There is always someone stepping up the violent plate.
You reap what you sow. Violence breeds violence.
This argument is about revenge - not punishment or deterrence. And we'd all be lying if we didn't admit that at some level, we would all turn our minds to revenge at some point if it was our loved one who was the victim.
The punishment, regardless of its level - fatal or not - will never cure the crime. The punishment will never deter - doesn't at any other level of offending.
Sara's Boys
27-06-2006, 20:02
My sister is a criminal psychologist, so yes I am aware, and although it isn't a walk in the park...it's nothing compared to the ending of ones life. I agree to disagree, but I am not misinformed or uneducated in my opinions. There are many criminals who have their sentences shortened considerably if they "perform" well in prison. And ther4e are many injustices served by our justice system, that leave the criminal, free or under sentenced, so let us not be completely naive in thinking they are all served their justice.
I'm with Sop - unless you've worked in the system - or served time in maximum security, it's hard to imagine the true nature of custody...really is beyond what you can imagine.
And if capital punishment is about reducing recidivism, which crimes do we decide are worthy of the punishment? And why does the USofA still have such an incredible number of violent crimes if the perpetrators are being exterminated? There is always someone stepping up the violent plate.
You reap what you sow. Violence breeds violence.
This argument is about revenge - not punishment or deterrence. And we'd all be lying if we didn't admit that at some level, we would all turn our minds to revenge at some point if it was our loved one who was the victim.
The punishment, regardless of its level - fatal or not - will never cure the crime. The punishment will never deter - doesn't at any other level of offending.
Fabulous MM
If only I could get my pov across as eloquently as you, Bron and a few others always seem to :)
~EmsMum~
27-06-2006, 20:06
im not for the death penatly, to me thats just letting them off lightly.
MammaMia
27-06-2006, 20:11
My sister is a criminal psychologist, so yes I am aware, and although it isn't a walk in the park...it's nothing compared to the ending of ones life.
Sara - I recognise your right to a differing view, and you may appreciate what we were saying. I think my point & Sop's for others that have not been exposed to prison is that time in custody is particuarly hard - not because of the lack of freedom alone, or any of the usual things that you think of... I'm speaking of those same murderers etc with all of the things that their depraved minds can devise reigning with terror and torturing other prisoners... repeatedly. And one day, in some cases, after the campaign is finished, killing the prisoner.
In some ways, I've often thought that the death penalty would be easier to stomach than the drawn out processes inside custody.
sopolicha
27-06-2006, 20:30
In a way I really like the idea that the offender is rehabilitated and spends the rest of his/her life living with what they have done.
The death penalty is a quick fix. What are we all looking for when we have a problem?
Blessed Mum
27-06-2006, 20:31
Every story outlined here in this thread & that we have heard of in the news lately just absolutely devastates me beyond words. I just can't begin to comprehend these crimes & the perpertrators commiting them so therefore I do not think it is my place to say or judge what their punishment should be.
However as others have said if it were one of my beautiful children then well I will leave it at that.
Tonight I am going to pray that such horrors stop, and that these children's souls rest in peace & may their families find strength & comfort in their time of need.
Mister Noodle
27-06-2006, 20:33
I actually do agree about extended sentences. I haven't had direct contact with the prison system, but my dad used to work as a prison doctor for a while. Anyone who thinks the places are in any way 'cushy'... needs a reality check.
I don't think it's fine to throw people in there forever, 'twas just a figure of speech. Prisons mainly traumatise prisoners, and expose them to the worst people in our society. Little good results of this.
And no, I don't know what would be a workable alternative.
Mamaduke
27-06-2006, 20:43
It may interest a few of you to know what exactly goes on behind bars.
Someone very dear to me was in Pentridge and let me tell you now, it is no 'walk in the park'.
Firstly, in order to see family on a contact visit, this person had to bend over and have every orifice of his body searched. Then he was put into a pair of full length overalls with a zip at the back. The zip was then locked with a plastic tie. After the visit, he would then have to be strip down and every orifice searched again.
The cells were not 'cushy' - they were no bigger than an average sized bathroom. Two men would share a cell. It had a toilet but it was the 'unwritten rule' that you do not use the toilet at lockdown as the stench would be unbearable in such a small & enclosed space with virtually no ventilation...you'd just have to wait until morning or risk the consequences.
The time spent out in the yard was frightening, prisoners with no morals/values and nothing to lose would form gangs and it was nothing to see a fellow prisoner beaten. My friend saw first hand a prisoner having a barbell dropped on his head in the yard - he ended up a paraplegic - he was inside for drink driving.
The threat of sexual/rape/physical abuse is rife in the prison system - it's got nothing to do with homosexuality, it's an act to show power & domination, and it's mostly always targeted at victims that the abusers see as 'soft' - not necessarily murderers, rapists or peadophiles.
It's not a walk in the park or a holiday camp, and neither it should be - but before making flippant comments such as "jails are too good for them" imagine living every second of your life in jail being known to the prison population (& don't worry, they find out) as a paedophile, rapist or murderer of children - it would not be pleasant...and neither it should be.
Firstly i want to say that i do not aprrove of the death penalty.. While i despise people who take an innocent life i believe it is not ANYONES place to take a life...
The cells were not 'cushy' - they were no bigger than an average sized bathroom. Two men would share a cell. It had a toilet but it was the 'unwritten rule' that you do not use the toilet at lockdown as the stench would be unbearable in such a small & enclosed space with virtually no ventilation...you'd just have to wait until morning or risk the consequences.
The time spent out in the yard was frightening,.
I do agree that life in Jail is not pretty... but my DH was just recently working on the new remand centre ... anyway while small..each room was individual... each room had a shower, toilet and vanity, a bed, a tv and an internet point...
You didnt have to leave your room ever! Meals would be bought to you if you didnt want to leave your room!
This makes me cross..... :mad:
I always thought "dangerous" criminals should be dumped on "monster Island" (as per the Simpsons.....)
Tam-I-Am
27-06-2006, 20:57
So many others have summed it up for me so well.
I don't agree with the death penalty, for the reasons that Bron, Sop, MammaMia and Mr Noodle have outlined.
If someone is killed, no matter who they are, someone else has to kill them.
Would u be willing to kill them yourself?
Should anyone have that job?:no:
Mamaduke
27-06-2006, 21:02
but my DH was just recently working on the new remand centre ... anyway while small..each room was individual... each room had a shower, toilet and vanity, a bed, a tv and an internet point...
You didnt have to leave your room ever! Meals would be bought to you if you didnt want to leave your room!
This makes me cross..... :mad:
A remand centre is for people who are awaiting trial.
They could be on remand for any number of reasons including not having enough money to post bail...it doesn't mean they're guilty.
Innocent till proven guilty and all that.
I think that for some crimes, eg drink driving...criminals should be made to work with the victims of severe road trauma..perhaps even just cleaning in the hospital...so they get an idea of the consequences. I think this would be alot more effective then jail.:thumbsup:
A remand centre is for people who are awaiting trial.
They could be on remand for any number of reasons including not having enough money to post bail...it doesn't mean they're guilty.
Innocent till proven guilty and all that.
I realise that Mamaduke thats why i made the point of saying it was a remand centre but seriously do they need all that jazz...? Its our tax money thats all :rolleyes:
I am totally in agreeance with you in all ways....
Adding my vote to the voices of reason, as opposed to emotion, in this thread - do not bring back the death penalty and lower our society to the level of those who commit these crimes.
Everyone keeps saying "if they are 100% guilty". There is no such thing. Decisions on guilt are made on "beyond reasonable doubt" - to prevent those who are innocent from being convicted. Nothing is 100%. As MammaMia said - DNA is not 100%.
What has happened to children in this country in the last few days has been horrific - but the death penalty won't change that.
Mister Noodle
27-06-2006, 22:11
Unfortunately, even the most draconian sentences don't lower crime rates.
Yes, and I wish it applied to the 21 year old who is being charged with the murder and rape of an 8 year old girl in perth yesterday. No one can give me a reason why that sick f#$% should even get to breath.
i totally agree
I would never, ever support the death penalty and I am actually pretty shocked at the number of people who would....wow.
I always find myself thinking that people who commit horrendous crimes were once little babies and vulnerable children themselves.....I don't believe that anyone is born with the capacity to do what some of these people do to other human beings.
So, how do they get to the point where they become so depraved that they can take another's life, often in a frightening, sickening way?....who knows....I guess it is different in every case.
What I do know is that alot of offenders were abused themselves....emotionally, physically, sexually. I am not saying that this would excuse them for their crimes, certainly not.....but where does the buck stop?
If we kill the killer, then surely we should kill the person or people who f...cked them up in the first place? And then we should kill the person or people who f...cked those people up and so on and so on.
I don't know what the answer is, but the death penalty is not it.
im not for the death penatly, to me thats just letting them off lightly.
Here, here. I agree.
You know at the beginning of this post I would have said I was for it, but you have all raised such important issues which have made me think that an eye for an eye isn't the answer. And I wouldn't like blood on my hands.
There is a rehabilitation program in the US that is quite controversial. I saw the documentary on CI (foxtel) channel. Basically prisoners who had committed terrible crimes went through step by step and had to talk about what they did, how they did it, how they felt. They also had to look at crime scene photo's and see what they had done. Plus they also had to talk to the victims families and listen to what they had to say. They say the rehabilitation rate is 73%. This was a very shocking documentary but I would like to see something like this happening here in Australia with prisoners. So that they fully realise the consequences of what they have done. And maybe at the same time it may give the families the closure they are seeking.
And I'm sure prison is hell on earth, the lowest of the low.
mumtok&z
27-06-2006, 22:51
Yes, and I wish it applied to the 21 year old who is being charged with the murder and rape of an 8 year old girl in perth yesterday. No one can give me a reason why that sick f#$% should even get to breath.
I totally agree. It is sickening that this happens at all.
MonkeyMum05
27-06-2006, 23:02
[quote=coopsntilly]I think you will find that most people who commit horrendous crimes are indeed locked up for life, or at least until they are very old. [quote]
Actually, that is a very popular misconception.
People seem to hear the 'term life sentence', and assume that it means the best part of someones life. In QLD a life sentence is a 15 year minimum sentence... so someone who murders in their early 20's can be walking the street again int heir mid 30's. Sentences are slightly tougher in other states, but not by much.
That is why their are groups such as the Qld Homocide Victims' Support Group, lobbying for truth in sentencing. (Check out their website, if you're interested.)
If someone recieves a life sentence, it should be exactly that... life in prison.
If they only recieve 15 years in jail... then they should call it '15 years in jail'... not lull us into a false sense of security, by calling it 'life'.
Having said all that, I definately do not agree with the death penalty.
Just truthful sentences that better reflect the value of a human life.
Having said all that, I definately do not agree with the death penalty. Just truthful sentences that better reflect the value of a human life.
That's true. A guy who murdered his adopted parents got 'life' in prison.....but that is '28 years' apparantly. It should be 'life'. :mad:
Mylittleboy
27-06-2006, 23:17
I ( in my opinion) would welcome the death penalty back if you could prove 100% guilty of the crime in question. serious ones im talking about
I was thinking the exact same thing today
MissBrightside
27-06-2006, 23:29
I think sentences need to be alot harsher. These people never deserve to have freedom, they should rot in jail. I think its wrong that they put drink drivers and such in a jail with rapists and murderers. I think true crimes as these should be locked up together and have nasty things done to them for the rest of their lives. The rapists should also have their balls cut off! JMO
SassyMummy
27-06-2006, 23:41
I am against the death penalty.
I don't think that there is any way to prove that anyone is 100% guilty...especially since cases rely on a "jury" (who, are just regular people and therefore are able to vote solely on emotion/opinion...even though they're supposed to vote on evidence-based facts). Even if all signs point to Person A...who's to say that there is some evidence out there, which is yet to be discovered, that actually suggests that another person is the culprit? Just because all the evidence you have points to one person, doesn't mean that that's all the evidence that exists...
I certainly don't agree with the "eye for an eye" thing either.
While I may be playing the devils advocate here, not all murderers are "that bad". What about the theoretical wife who offs her husband because he beats her and her kids daily...if she comes clean and says, "yeah, I did it" and there is "100% proof" that she is guilty of the crime...then surely, as a murderer, she should be given the death penalty, right?
Pfft...I think not.
I do not doubt that SOME prisons are a bit too cushy...I imagine that the inmates in such prisons are in there for lesser crimes.
I will admit that if it were MY child who was raped and murdered, then YES, I would want the killer to be killed off...but that would be an emotion-fuelled conclusion, rather than that of someone in a more rational state of mind.
I must agree with Mr Noodle's post 100%. To kill off ANYONE is wrong and will pain SOMEONE. I don't think that ANYBODY has the right to kill. I also very much agreed with Tracie's post!
Quite frankly, I find ALL kinds of murder ******** and cruel - no matter WHO is being killed or WHY they are being killed.
Mister Noodle
27-06-2006, 23:42
The rapists should also have their balls cut off! JMO
What would you cut off female sex offenders?
Mamaduke
27-06-2006, 23:44
Yes...we do tend to forget there are women like Rose West around...
chemical castration maybe - take away the 'urge'?
MissBrightside
28-06-2006, 00:05
I knew someone would bring up that question after I posted it. I do realise there are females out there that commit hideous crimes so what mamaduke said will do!
Dont care what anyone says I dont think they should be killed just put through a bit of pain themselves. No alot of pain and i hope they suffer!
:thumbsup: SassyMummy, I have agreed with a lot of the anti-death penalty posts here, but yours stood out as you have really captured my feelings on some aspects of this debate.
I noticed someone (sorry, can't remember who) asked the question: If your child grew up to be a murderer, would you want the death penalty for them?
I would be interested in what those of you for the death penalty think about this.
MilkOnTap
28-06-2006, 00:34
What would you cut off female sex offenders?
Good point...??
Mischief
28-06-2006, 07:25
Yes! Some people dont deserve to live! Crimes against children should be capital punishment!
Rapists get 3 or so years - their victims get a life sentence, many kill themselves because they cant live with the pain and shame anymore.
Murderers get 10-20 years mostly - what about their victim, they didnt get a chance....what about the victims family? They live with it for the rest of their lives....I often wonder how safe they feel once the perp is let out of jail.
Its discusting. How about bringing in jail terms that really reflect the crime?
MumsieMel
28-06-2006, 07:27
Im not sure about the death penalty, but definately think they need to be harder with giving NO early release!!!!! :mad:
Life imprisonment never means that anymore!!!!!!!!!! :mad:
pestiferous
28-06-2006, 09:36
I said 100% DNA proof, life for life....not a chushy jail sell with tv, on suite batherooms that they get now...if it were your child you would want justice..just my opinion XX
Yes, i would want justice.
But i think spending the rest of their life in jail, having every second of every day dictated by someone else, loosing contact with their own family, constantly having to worry about who is going to 'get' them and when. would offer more justice than a quick and painless death.
Mister Noodle
28-06-2006, 10:42
Because what the world needs is more pain, suffering and fear.
This concept of 'justice' is alien to me. Yes, we want to prevent dangerous people from hurting anyone again - but I fail to see what actual good it does anyone for them to suffer.
If they were taken away so that nobody would ever see or hear from them again, what difference to anyone whether they're undergoing daily rapes and beatings, or pina coladas on the beach? Exactly what part of the world do their screams improve?
Not that I'm suggesting that people be rewarded for crimes - but I do wonder about the glee that people express over the pain and misery we put them through instead. I tend to put it down as a regrettable side-effect of imprisonment, not the purpose of the exercise.
it annoys me how pedophiles (spelling?) are kept seperate from all the rest of the prisoners, they should be in with the rest of them!!!!
Wish_Bear
28-06-2006, 12:58
I say bring back the death penalty. Jail is not really punishment these days. They have access to school, tv, they can earn small amounts of money, they are fed and housed and if they are good then hey let them out early.
It's a load of bull@#$% IMO!! If they are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt ie.confess or are found guilty by a jury for murder then execute them!! If a crime is committed with malice and intent then they know what they are doing and deserve to die. I know I sound harsh and heartless but put yourself in the place of the families of the victims. Their lives are forever ruined. And think of the last moments of the victim's life, spent in pain and so scared, wondering why is this happening to me.
I really feel if you are prepared to take the life of a human being then be prepared to have your life taken from you.
An eye for an eye a life for a life!
P.S Please remember this is my opinion only and I do not wish to offend anyone.
Desertress
28-06-2006, 12:58
Yes i say bring it back... the amount of repeat offenders and people who are just not going to stop. The death penalty would start to make this world a safer place.
I say bring back the death penalty. Jail is not really punishment these days. They have access to school, tv, they can earn small amounts of money, they are fed and housed and if they are good then hey let them out early.
It's a load of bull@#$% IMO!! If they are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt ie.confess or are found guilty by a jury for murder then execute them!! If a crime is committed with malice and intent then they know what they are doing and deserve to die. I know I sound harsh and heartless but put yourself in the place of the families of the victims. Their lives are forever ruined. And think of the last moments of the victim's life, spent in pain and so scared, wondering why is this happening to me.
I really feel if you are prepared to take the life of a human being then be prepared to have your life taken from you.
An eye for an eye a life for a life!
P.S Please remember this is my opinion only and I do not wish to offend anyone.
i really feel for the poor victims parents to, to know that the last moments of your childs life was horrible filled with terror that no one should go throu would be awful, i dont know how id get throu it
Ana Gram
28-06-2006, 13:12
Yes i say bring it back... the amount of repeat offenders and people who are just not going to stop. The death penalty would start to make this world a safer place.
The death penalty is in place in several countries, yet they aren't any safer.
i think yes 4 some crimes.......... but what if they were wrong if the 'uninnocent' was actully innocent. u can b taken outa jail but u cant have ur life reinststed........ so i really dont know
~Emmylou~
28-06-2006, 13:44
The rehabilitation rate for pedophilia is something like 2% - and that is when they actually have therapy.
Not good enough. :no: These people, on the whole, can't be "cured" or "rehabilitated".
Chemical castration if they haven't killed anyone or the death penalty when they have is the only suitable punishment.
I just can't agree with the death penalty. Under any circumstances.
Life is sacred, and I don't believe that anyone has the right to take another person's life - governments included.
Lock them up for the term of their natural life and they will no longer pose a threat to society. The death penalty is not a deterrant to others. And prison is not a holiday camp!
misskittyfantastico
28-06-2006, 13:52
No. Because I don't believe that you should kill anyone.
A very wise man once said an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
Yes, there are horrendous crimes committed sometimes and they are heartbreaking and awful and they shouldn't happen and the offender should be punished but this doesn't mean that those people should be killed. Capital punishment is, in effect, the state sanctioning violence. It gives the message that killing someone is an appropriate solution to a problem.
It isn't a deterent. All you have to do is look at murder rates in places like the USA to see that having the death penalty does not discourage people from committing murder at all.
And you talk about being 100% certain that the person committed the crime, how can you possibly draw the line there - who decides whether or not it is 100% certain? Innocent people have been sentenced to death, it has happened and it still happens.
So, it isn't a deterrant, it is an illogical punishment and you cannot be certain that you aren't killing an innocent person.
So, no, not acceptable.
I agree (surprise surprise)
SamanthaJane
28-06-2006, 13:59
Wow... you bubhubbers have swayed me. When i first read it (all mad about the freaks killing in the last week) i was all for it.
Its official. I change my mind. I'm against it now. I see it now as a "band aid" solution.
Whilst i still feel like because they have taken away life, their life should be taken away in return, i contradict myself by then thinking "no person should kill".
If you kill another human being for the pure evil pleasure of it, you should be locked up for life. I do not mean 15-20 year sentence i mean life. I think their last breath should be taken in their jail cell. No one can ever predict whether they will or wont kill again.
Well done children:yes::p
OscarTheGrouch
28-06-2006, 14:29
I don't agree with the death penalty. I quite frankly see it as letting them off lightly. Given the choice of death or a lifetime in prison, I know what I'd chose and it certainly wouldn't be prison. Do the crime, do the time!
Ok, my 2c.
I do not agree with the death penalty (I think most of you would know that from previous debates about the issue:o ).
Firstly, as others have pointed out you can never prove guilt 100%, that's just the way it is.
Also in other countries with the death penalty there is always a way out with good representation. Almost all prisoners in the US that were executed could not afford someone to represent them.
Some people have mentioned about imprisoning someone costing tax payers money. Yes it does, but a trial where the death penalty is sort costs more than imprisoning someone for life without parole (in the US).
Just thought they were a couple of interesting facts.
Also thanks Mister Noodle, great posts.:)
SassyMummy
28-06-2006, 14:54
I agree that having a criminal killed wouldn't ease the pain of the family of the victim (or the victim themselves, if they're still alive). In fact, I imagine that some of them worry...is that person REALLY guilty of the crime? I know I would...because we would never be 100% sure. The emotion that victims/families of victims feel is not lessened by killing another person - at least IMO.
I'd also like to imagine that the person who harmed my child (if it happened) would rot in jail and actually SUFFER...rather than having a quick and relatively pain-free death.
I also don't agree with any form of castration...partly because I think it's completely inhumane to take away another persons sexual organs. Sure, it is ALSO inhumane to rape/murder someone, but that doesn't make it okay to remove what physically (not genetically) makes that person a male or female. Nobody has the right to humiliate another person in such an inhumane way.
I also don't see how castration would necessarily prevent people from offending again. A lot of paedophiles/rapists don't necessarily have penetrative sex with their victims...they can find other ways to sexually assult someone. I imagine that the problem with paedophiles is more often MENTAL, rather than a PHYSICAL urge.
Sure, a man's body (penis) might "instruct" (for lack of a better term) him to ejaculate, but it wouldn't dictate to whom and how. That's up to man and his brain - which I imagine is why a lot of paedophiles/rapists hand-pick their victims (some like 8-year-old boys with blue eyes, or short females who fit a certain "image" etc). So, because of that, I don't think that castration is necessarily going to benefit the community in ANY way.
(Has anyone seen the Kevin Spacey movie, "The Life of David Gale"?? Some things in this thread remind me of it).
Wow... you bubhubbers have swayed me. When i first read it (all mad about the freaks killing in the last week) i was all for it.
Its official. I change my mind. I'm against it now. I see it now as a "band aid" solution.
Whilst i still feel like because they have taken away life, their life should be taken away in return, i contradict myself by then thinking "no person should kill".
If you kill another human being for the pure evil pleasure of it, you should be locked up for life. I do not mean 15-20 year sentence i mean life. I think their last breath should be taken in their jail cell. No one can ever predict whether they will or wont kill again.
Well done children:yes::p
Hey SJ, that is great!!! Good on you for not only challenging your own beliefs and being willing to think about new things, but then coming back and sharing it with us all :yelclap:
E, I was wondering when you would show up :p
LOL E, I was deliberately not reading it as I knew I would have to post........can't help myself.:o
In 1981 the bodies of two children were discovered in Singapore. Agnes and Ghazali, aged 9 and 10 respectively. Agnes was found in a bag with signs of sexual violation and Ghazali’s body was discovered under a tree, with indications of bruises and burns on his body.
I knew that 9 year old girl. She was my neighbour, we took the same bus to school and my younger sister usually played with her after bible classes in church. Incidentally she was lured away from the church premises after bible class.
The murderers, Adrain Lim, his wife and his mistress were all hanged. Adrain Lim had no remorse what so ever. In fact he was smiling throughout the court proceeding. What do you suppose the Singapore justice system should have done with him. Just lock him up for 15, 20 years? Rehabilitation? I think not.
Trust me when I say the family of Agnes and I don't doubt the family of Ghazali's too, found a bit of solace in the fact that these monsters were removed from society for good.
SamanthaJane
28-06-2006, 15:08
Does anyone know which countries still use the death penalty, and what they use it for?
I agree that having a criminal killed wouldn't ease the pain of the family of the victim (or the victim themselves, if they're still alive). In fact, I imagine that some of them worry...is that person REALLY guilty of the crime? I know I would...because we would never be 100% sure. The emotion that victims/families of victims feel is not lessened by killing another person - at least IMO.
I'd also like to imagine that the person who harmed my child (if it happened) would rot in jail and actually SUFFER...rather than having a quick and relatively pain-free death.
I also don't agree with any form of castration...partly because I think it's completely inhumane to take away another persons sexual organs. Sure, it is ALSO inhumane to rape/murder someone, but that doesn't make it okay to remove what physically (not genetically) makes that person a male or female. Nobody has the right to humiliate another person in such an inhumane way.
I also don't see how castration would necessarily prevent people from offending again. A lot of paedophiles/rapists don't necessarily have penetrative sex with their victims...they can find other ways to sexually assult someone. I imagine that the problem with paedophiles is more often MENTAL, rather than a PHYSICAL urge.
Sure, a man's body (penis) might "instruct" (for lack of a better term) him to ejaculate, but it wouldn't dictate to whom and how. That's up to man and his brain - which I imagine is why a lot of paedophiles/rapists hand-pick their victims (some like 8-year-old boys with blue eyes, or short females who fit a certain "image" etc). So, because of that, I don't think that castration is necessarily going to benefit the community in ANY way.
(Has anyone seen the Kevin Spacey movie, "The Life of David Gale"?? Some things in this thread remind me of it).
While I agree with some of your points SassyMummy, I still stand by my point of view that the death penalty SHOULD be brought back for major crimes.
You said that you'd like to imagine that the person who harmed your child (if it happened) would rot in jail and suffer...But thats the thing, they don't really suffer in jail these days do they. They all have enough to eat, sure, the meals probably aren't the greatest but they don't starve or anything. They don't get whipped or they're not in any pain. Some of them are allowed to study and get qualifications. Lets face it, even the ones that commit major crimes don't really have such a HARD life do they?
If someone did anything to my child, like raping them and killing them for no reason at all, then I wouldn't want them in jail taking up the tax money of all the people working, what a waste. Do you know how expensive that must be? I would want them in a jail like the Bali jails. Where it is actually hell to live in. Some actually commit crimes then get let out of jail only to offend again just because they have it alot easier in jail.
A lot of time the ones who commit major crimes are not in their for life anyway. They are let out. Do you want to risk the life of people by just letting them out thinking, oh no they won't do it again.
Mentally ill or not, these people still commit the crime and should pay the consequences. Make them suffer like what they did to others.
I would be curious to know the crime rate difference in a country with the death penalty compared to Australia - without the death penalty.
No, it probably doesn't make the family of the murdered person feel any better. But at least they would know for sure that the person in question would not be able to get away with it again. They would have a little comfort in the fact that the person suffered just like their loved one did.
An eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth....
Just my point of view.
SassyMummy
28-06-2006, 15:50
It may bewilder you to know, Cinta, that I'd much prefer tax paying dollars to be used to educate, rather than be spent on "whips" or any other means of torture. Call me crazy, but I just can't justify torture...no matter WHAT the crime.
I don't think that criminals should be starved, and I'm actually quite surprised that you are appalled that they're NOT starved! You can go on and on about how inhumane some crimes are...but you don't hesitate to suggest inhumane treatment of criminals (such as "whipping" and "starvation"...). It's just very contradictory, isn't it?
And please, stand by your point of you, I'm not asking anyone to change it. In fact, I rather like the fact that I'm quite appalled by some of the responses to this thread - it makes it far more interesting, don't you agree? lol.
SamanthaJane
28-06-2006, 15:55
Lol if we all agreed on everything it would be a very boring world... i love debates, i always got great marks in debating at school, i'd never give up:laughing:;)
Mister Noodle
28-06-2006, 15:59
You said that you'd like to imagine that the person who harmed your child (if it happened) would rot in jail and suffer...But thats the thing, they don't really suffer in jail these days do they. They all have enough to eat, sure, the meals probably aren't the greatest but they don't starve or anything. They don't get whipped or they're not in any pain. Some of them are allowed to study and get qualifications. Lets face it, even the ones that commit major crimes don't really have such a HARD life do they?
Yes. Yes, they do. The conditions in the jails... just say that if you kept a dog in those conditions, you'd be thrown in jail yourself. Also given the rampant crime levels within the jails themselves (given that it's a community of theives, drug dealers, gang members, murderers and rapists), the majority are beaten, raped, extorted, and worse, on a regular basis.
A lot of time the ones who commit major crimes are not in their for life anyway. They are let out. Do you want to risk the life of people by just letting them out thinking, oh no they won't do it again.
Mentally ill or not, these people still commit the crime and should pay the consequences. Make them suffer like what they did to others.
Why? Why do you want to make people suffer? That's the entire point. What purpose does their suffering serve? Isn't wanting people to suffer the very thing that makes them criminals in the first place?
I would be curious to know the crime rate difference in a country with the death penalty compared to Australia - without the death penalty.
The crime rates aren't significantly different. That's the point. The people that do these things aren't acting rationally, or they wouldn't do them. Even having criminals publicly tortured for the rest of their lives in the village square wouldn't deter them: they simply don't connect the actions with the consequences.
No, it probably doesn't make the family of the murdered person feel any better. But at least they would know for sure that the person in question would not be able to get away with it again. They would have a little comfort in the fact that the person suffered just like their loved one did.
Granted, we don't want criminals free to offend again if they aren't rehabilitated. That's a given.
But how on earth is their suffering meant to be comforting?!
Would you get a warm fuzzy feeling form watching a video of someone being tortured, if you knew that they were a really bad person... or would it still make you sick?
Consider your answer carefully.
Cinta,
I do understand that you feel angry at anyone who commits one of these horrendous crimes and that the idea of gettign rid of them makes it seem better..
BUT..
these criminals dont stop and think about whatthey do..they wont think oh well if I get caught I might get the chair so I wont do this.
They are sick/unwell and cannot think like that.
Idont think of my tax money going to keep them in a good life in prison..I think of my tax money being used to keep these people off the street and that is actually a good thing.
You say that if youre child was raped you would want the person given the death penalty...but you would find that when it coems down to it it does not work like that.
I was attacked and raped at 17 very violently..I still dont want the men killed. It wont fix anything.
My Brother wanted to punch them but I told him I oculd not bear for him to have to look at them.
I could not live with myself if they had been sent to the chair or eqivalent..
These crimes are so difficult but to feel that something I did resulted in someone being killed..noo...and Iknow I did nothing to deserve it but it just would not sit with me.
I'm not saying it will stop all criminals, but it would stop some. Just because they are sick/unwell I really don't think that is a good enough excuse. They are still taking the life of another.
I'm would never be compassionate towards a person like that, they just make me sick.
But don't you think the tax money should be spent towards other things, such as a better health system, education, child care etc? Rather then just paying a heck of a lot of money into keeping these sicko's locked up?
I'm not saying if my child was raped the person should get the death penalty. But murder...then yes, definately. A person in such a state of mind as to imhumanely take the life of another person does not deserve to be here on earth in my opinion.
I'm sorry to hear that you were raped. I really wouldn't know what you have been through but I do have a lot of sympathy for those who have been through that. You may not want the guy killed but he doesnt exactly deserve to be getting away with it now does he. Those several years (or whatever he got) in prison isn't going to change his state of mind. Most phedophiles (spelling?) re-commit. So what, everytime the guy rapes someone just lock them up, then let them back out only to commit the crime again?? There needs to be a better solution, and yes, maybe the death penalty isn't the ultimate answer but I think it would be a lot better then the system we have now.
OscarTheGrouch
28-06-2006, 16:04
Does anyone know which countries still use the death penalty, and what they use it for?
Saudi Arabia - decapitation is their method. Various crimes including murder, alcohol & drug abuse, rape. They also chop hands off for stealing.
It may bewilder you to know, Cinta, that I'd much prefer tax paying dollars to be used to educate, rather than be spent on "whips" or any other means of torture. Call me crazy, but I just can't justify torture...no matter WHAT the crime.
I don't think that criminals should be starved, and I'm actually quite surprised that you are appalled that they're NOT starved! You can go on and on about how inhumane some crimes are...but you don't hesitate to suggest inhumane treatment of criminals (such as "whipping" and "starvation"...). It's just very contradictory, isn't it?
And please, stand by your point of you, I'm not asking anyone to change it. In fact, I rather like the fact that I'm quite appalled by some of the responses to this thread - it makes it far more interesting, don't you agree? lol.
I don't necessary mean that we should 'whip them' I'm just saying that its not like they are suffering in prison. We don't necessary have to starve them, but why not just let them live on enough food just for them to live on. From what i have heard (i could be wrong ;) ) but I don't think the food would be too bad. They should live on the bare minimum. A lot of criminals don't even have any mercy, no regret whatsoever in what they have done. Why should we show compassion towards them, give them the death penalty i say.
Yes it is contradictory, but like i said before, it should be an eye for an eye...
I don't see how you are appalled at some of the responses in this thread. :confused: There are many people for the death penalty, many who are against...
But like you said, Im not going to change my opinion, nor are you going to change yours. I do find it interesting to listen to others of a different opinion :)
sopolicha
28-06-2006, 16:19
Mentally ill or not, these people still commit the crime and should pay the consequences. Make them suffer like what they did to others.
People suffering from some sort of mental illness are the ones that need the help the most. They are already suffering.
If you ever have the misfortune to suffer from a mental illness, you will notice that the first thing to go is the ability to make sound, informed decisions.
I really don't think that you'd be throwing in jail yourself for keeping a dog in those conditions. Have you seen the way they live Mr Noodle?? I believe there would be quite a difference between the jails in Australia and the jails in Bali.
Yes i understand that many are beaten, raped etc, i believe they deserve all that and more!
The crime rates may not be significantly different. However, i stand by my opinion that they should get what they deserve.
No, i wouldnt get a 'warm fuzzy feeling' watching someone being tortured. I would hate to watch. But they still deserve it.
I have a lot more to say but i really cant be bothered :sleeping:
Yes. Yes, they do. The conditions in the jails... just say that if you kept a dog in those conditions, you'd be thrown in jail yourself. Also given the rampant crime levels within the jails themselves (given that it's a community of theives, drug dealers, gang members, murderers and rapists), the majority are beaten, raped, extorted, and worse, on a regular basis.
Why? Why do you want to make people suffer? That's the entire point. What purpose does their suffering serve? Isn't wanting people to suffer the very thing that makes them criminals in the first place?
The crime rates aren't significantly different. That's the point. The people that do these things aren't acting rationally, or they wouldn't do them. Even having criminals publicly tortured for the rest of their lives in the village square wouldn't deter them: they simply don't connect the actions with the consequences.
Granted, we don't want criminals free to offend again if they aren't rehabilitated. That's a given.
But how on earth is their suffering meant to be comforting?!
Would you get a warm fuzzy feeling form watching a video of someone being tortured, if you knew that they were a really bad person... or would it still make you sick?
Consider your answer carefully.
People suffering from some sort of mental illness are the ones that need the help the most. They are already suffering.
If you ever have the misfortune to suffer from a mental illness, you will notice that the first thing to go is the ability to make sound, informed decisions.
So we should have sympathy for those people?? :eek:
So we should have sympathy for those people?? :eek:
Sympathy, no. Understanding, yes. The vast majority of those in our correctional system have some form of mental illness. They are sick. They may also be dangerous, in which case they need to be kept away from the rest of the community. But they also need treatment.
Sympathy, no. Understanding, yes. The vast majority of those in our correctional system have some form of mental illness. They are sick. They may also be dangerous, in which case they need to be kept away from the rest of the community. But they also need treatment.
Understanding?? Oh they killed and raped that little girl, they must be mentally ill. lets show understanding and compassion towards them
Not trying to be a b!tch, just dont agree with what some of you are saying.
You dont believe in the D.P. but i do :) I like hearing opinions though so keep 'em coming!!
Ana Gram
28-06-2006, 16:42
I think the people who seem to think that prison is like Club Med should actually spend a week in there locked up to really see what it's like.
melfunction
28-06-2006, 16:49
Well, think about it..What if your little bubba grew up to be one of 'these' people?
Would you turn your back on her and not offer any understanding?
Mister Noodle
28-06-2006, 16:50
Deliberately causing people to suffer for crimes is actually a lot like torturing a savage dog for biting someone.
The dog doesn't connect either future or past pain with current actions, so threats and punishment are simply ineffective. To badly mix metaphors... you're shutting the stable door long after the horse has bolted, and it got out through the window anyway.
Trying to 'get even' with an animal would be just plain sadistic and repulsive - and I don't see that there's any significant difference in doing it to humans.
Instead, you act to restrain the creature and prevent it from harming people, in the most humane manner possible.
sopolicha
28-06-2006, 16:51
I think it is all well and good to say that our prisons should be like the ones in Bali. Just bear in mind we enjoy a much higher standard of living than Balinese do. Shouldn't our prisons reflect the type of society we live in?
I think it is all well and good to say that our prisons should be like the ones in Bali. Just bear in mind we enjoy a much higher standard of living than Balinese do. Shouldn't our prisons reflect the type of society we live in?
I'm not saying our prisons should be like the ones in Bali, I was comparing them. The bali prisons arent really all that hygienic, but the food given to prisoners in Aus should only be the bare minimum. Remember, prison should be a punishment Why should our prisons reflect the type of society we live in?
Bring back the D.P. i say :yes:
Well, think about it..What if your little bubba grew up to be one of 'these' people?
Would you turn your back on her and not offer any understanding?
I would be absolutely disgusted if my daughter became one of 'those' people.
That doesn't necessarily mean i would turn my back on her though.
melfunction
28-06-2006, 17:12
I would be absolutely disgusted if my daughter became one of 'those' people
I rest my case then.
Trying to 'get even' with an animal would be just plain sadistic and repulsive - and I don't see that there's any significant difference in doing it to humans.
Instead, you act to restrain the creature and prevent it from harming people, in the most humane manner possible.
I agree Mr N :yes:
I rest my case then.
What do u mean u rest your case then? I would be disgusted, disapointed and upset about it if my daughter were in that situation. of course no one would want their son/daughter to go through the DP and yes i would be pleading for it not to happen, but for others yes i still think it should. it should happen if my daughter did it to, as much as i wouldnt want it to
are all pedophiles mentally ill thou?
Mister Noodle
28-06-2006, 17:26
Yes.
It's recognised as such in the DSM-IV. As has been noted, the rehab rate is close to zero - if it were merely a behavioural quirk, this wouldn't be the case.
mum2bubba
28-06-2006, 17:41
I think serial killers (especially ones that kill children) should get the death penalty. :yes:
i think the death penalty should be used in very serious cases
we will all have to agree to disagree:)
Well the serial killers seem to think they can just decide that another human should be put to death.
Yes in some ways I do agree that info on a missing person might not be brought out due to the person being killed (due to the D.P.) BUT the info may not come out AT ALL anyway, quite often the serial killer never tells :no:
Do you know that a lot of serial killers actually have serial killer groups..they do meet and talk about killings..
imagine if the only person with any information on where a missing person might be..had been killed...due to the death penalty
we only know such a small amount about the human mind and how it works. we still have so much to learn I dont think any human being has the knowledge to be able to decide another human should be put to death.
so wouldnt we be just the same by deciding to put people to death?
I guess so BUT they were the ones who did wrong so they should have the same done to them as they did to another. Who are they to just go out and kill someone, they deserve the same thing done to them
Completely different situation to murdering someone I'm afraid
Cinta,,
what will you teach Imogen if a kid hits her in the park?
hit him back?
or will you teach her that some people do not know manners and she is best of walking away as two wrongs will not make a right?
Or if she plays netball and another team member scratches on purpose..will you tell her to scratch back or teach her that ,that behaviour is worng and she is better then that?
I agree to disagree. :) We're talking about life or death here not a kid hitting my daughter. Of course I will be teaching her to walk away and all the rest, I just think its a lot different to the death penalty :yes:
see I disagree.
I think an eye for an eye, is something Iwill always teach my children, is wrong.
It starts at the park and it goes right up to horrible crimes.
they will be taught that they knwo right from wrong so they knwo better then to beahve the same way.
madwoman
28-06-2006, 18:11
There are a few very disturbing responses here, i'm surprised by the number of people who use the eye for an eye reasoning then go on to say if anyone harmed their child they would kill them, i guess that means they would also be willing to ruin the lives of their own families by being executed for it? I've also read a lot of talk about tax dollars for keeping people in jail until they rot, it would probably surprise many to find it actually costs more to execute someone, there has to be years of appeals etc, etc to be as sure as possible that the person to be executed is indeed guilty plus the massive cost of an execution.... its not as cut and dried as you think.
When i was younger, before i had kids or when my kids were very young, yes i had a very gung ho "eye for an eye" opinion, but as my kids have got a little older and I've seen more of the world I've realised that none of us really know what our kids will turn into, it is possibe for our own kids who we love and cherish to become anything due to outside influences etc. What if one of your kids became hooked on something and murdered someone, would you be so eye for an eye then, or would it be "it wasn't him it was the drugs". My opinion has changed to feel a bit for the family of the offender, what have they done to deserve to suffer the murder of their child.
I do think though that longer jail terms to remove these people from society for longer would help, but there is no deterrant. Perhaps the fancy lawyers who get people off on a technicality allowing them to offend again should take a look at themselves too.
MW
I agree with the death penalty for some people on the basis there is 100% DNA evidence.
If i had a choice between saving my kids life or killing the murderer, i think killing the potential murderer would be my priority!:yes:
If i have to suffer the consequences then so be it but atleast my kids will be alive!
Mister Noodle
28-06-2006, 18:58
How does that work?
If they're already in custody, your kids aren't at risk.
I mean intruders in your home, but if in jail they pose no threat to our society, the only problem is that we have inadequate sentencing in Australia, e.g rapist get 10yrs then let out after 2. I think if our legal/ justice system was a little more balanced we wouldn't need the death penalty.
People such as myself act out in anger and say yes to the death penalty because we see criminals let off to easy.
Why not bring tougher penalities and sentencing, then i think the majority will be happy with that.:)
I mean intruders in your home, but if in jail they pose no threat to our society, the only problem is that we have inadequate sentencing in Australia, e.g rapist get 10yrs then let out after 2. I think if our legal/ justice system was a little more balanced we wouldn't need the death penalty.
People such as myself act out in anger and say yes to the death penalty because we see criminals let off to easy.
Why not bring tougher penalities and sentencing, then i think the majority will be happy with that.:)
i agree
and why is it that they can be sentanced to life but get parole after 20yrs
I know im my opinion..that if life meant life then yes they should rot in jail for life!!!!...but they dont...:rolleyes: they get a chushy number:yes:
they should try castrating pedo's and see whats happens..and yes serial killers should be...well hanged
What about the rights of the irwins family..those girls were murdered by a sicko..he was watching them for weeks and now they will not relese his criminal past because its against his "human right" hes dead :thumbsup: and so what:mad: ?????
MonkeyMum05
28-06-2006, 19:23
i agree
and why is it that they can be sentanced to life but get parole after 20yrs
Because a life sentence is not actually a 'life' sentence.
In QLD it is 15 years.
MammaMia
28-06-2006, 19:32
I'd just like to clarify one thing: yes, life sentences can mean that you can be released after a set amount of time, depending upon in which state you live. However, parole is not automatic at that point... we have a number of prisoners in Queensland who will be in custody for the rest of their natural lives as they are still not considered rehabilitated/remorseful and present a risk. If you are released, for the rest of your life you are constrained by parole and liable to return to custody at any point it is considered that you have breached parole.
heymamma
28-06-2006, 19:33
100% proof they are guilty yep i say get rid of them. But in saying that the thought comes to my mind i actually contemplated killing someone myself because the pr**k molested me when i was 12...i was 17 when i was thinking about doing it...because none of my pain & fear would leave me....but i then thought well just cause he is dead it doesnt mean my pain will go away. So i do believe alot of people kill sometimes for a reason...not saying its ok.... & now that i think about it...my mind wasnt right at that time...& i would never do anything like that now.But that A**hole that molested me is still out there to do it to others :mad: .
I know some of you will most likely jugde me for this...but as i said i could never do it...but the thought did enter my mind when my pain got to much.:(
100% proof they are guilty yep i say get rid of them. But in saying that the thought comes to my mind i actually contemplated killing someone myself because the pr**k molested me when i was 12...i was 17 when i was thinking about doing it...because none of my pain & fear would leave me....but i then thought well just cause he is dead it doesnt mean my pain will go away. So i do believe alot of people kill sometimes for a reason...not saying its ok.... & now that i think about it...my mind wasnt right at that time...& i would never do anything like that now.But that A**hole that molested me is still out there to do it to others :mad: .
I know some of you will most likely jugde me for this...but as i said i could never do it...but the thought did enter my mind when my pain got to much.:(
No never judge honey:hugs: for what he did to you, the original thread was in some cases, and that means to me people that have no reason to abuse and murder and then so for their sick pleasure ifkwim, oh its all ahrd but you get my drift...these people should not be on this earth to cause more painX
heymamma- i feel your pain sweetie!!!
No you are not judged :no:
It's good to express your feelings, and you are jusitified to feel the way you do, remember you were the victim so no need to excuse yourself on how you feel, and if people do judge you, shame on them for doing so, as no one can know the hurt and pain you feel!
heymamma- i feel your pain sweetie!!!
No you are not judged :no:
It's good to express your feelings, and you are jusitified to feel the way you do, remember you were the victim so no need to excuse yourself on how you feel, and if people do judge you, shame on them for doing so, as no one can know the hurt and pain you feel!
:yelclap: well said :yes:
SassyMummy
28-06-2006, 22:56
A lot of the arguements FOR the dealth penalty to be brought back is the whole, "But life in prison doesn't actually mean LIFE is prison...".
It made me think - if you think that sentencing "time-frames" (sorry, couldn't think of a better term) are the problem, then why not have a whinge about THAT instead of saying, "Yeah well, the death penalty should be brought back BECAUSE sentencing isn't that harsh," ??
That is a good point sassymummy. I just watched a show on executions on the crime channel and it just made my stomach churn, how anyone can see that it is somehow the righteous thing to do is beyond me.
Imogensmum
28-06-2006, 22:58
I have stated in other post my total belief in the death penalty- if someone is convicted for murder, child molestation, rape etc- KILL EM! There is NO rehabilitation for these people- so why waste tax payer money keeping these *&^&%$$$%^ alive!
Mister Noodle
28-06-2006, 23:27
Because they're people.
Smurfette
29-06-2006, 00:45
I haven't read this entire thread, but thought I would chuck in my 2 cents worth.
I have never believed in the death penalty, purely because I think the offender should suffer in jail. I thought a death sentence was too lenient, if that makes sense.
When I saw the story about the 8 yr old girl in Perth tonight, I said to my husband 'They should bring the death penalty back in'. In the back of my mind, I really don't think they should and its not because 'they are people', like I said earlier, its so they can suffer in jail. I think my motivation behind my comment to my husband was because of my daughter, 1 yr ago I would probably never have made a comment like that, but I'm sure we can all agree a story like this one hits home for most of us, and makes us react in ways we never would have thought possible.
All I can say is, this world can be a very sad place. I just can not imagine what that family is going through. My thoughts and prayers are with them and lets all hope none of us have to experience the grief they are going through.:crying:
dynnyrne
29-06-2006, 01:11
I don't believe in the death penalty simply because I don't want to live in society where any murder is condoned... and government sactioned murder makes me feel sick.
I know some of these people have committed awful crimes but I think the hatred expressed by people who shout "KILL THEM" can be equally distressing.
Harlequin
29-06-2006, 01:38
I agree with what Bron said back on page 1 :)
They just need to overhaul the system and make sure repeat offenders aren't released from gaol. Also I believe rapists shouldreceive harsher sentences.
Does anyone know the percentage of rapists who go on to repeat their crime? Im guessing its pretty high.
I agree with what Bron said back on page 1 :)
They just need to overhaul the system and make sure repeat offenders aren't released from gaol. Also I believe rapists shouldreceive harsher sentences.
Does anyone know the percentage of rapists who go on to repeat their crime? Im guessing its pretty high.
Actually it is surprisingly not as high as you would expect. I am going from rough memory here but it is much less than 50% who repeat offend, and if they haven't reoffended within the first few years of being released from jail they are not likely to ever reoffend. Unfortunately the stats for peadophile rape are not as encouraging - they have a much higher recidivism rate - which highlights the disease side of peadophilia as opposed to the power and control of rape - one can be changed while the other can't as easily.
Actually it is surprisingly not as high as you would expect. I am going from rough memory here but it is much less than 50% who repeat offend, and if they haven't reoffended within the first few years of being released from jail they are not likely to ever reoffend. Unfortunately the stats for peadophile rape are not as encouraging - they have a much higher recidivism rate - which highlights the disease side of peadophilia as opposed to the power and control of rape - one can be changed while the other can't as easily.
Another great reason to treat prisoners like human beings, and not promote prison retribution... if they are treated like animals, and dominated by scarier people, then it stands to reason that they may come out more warped than they went in, and needing to assert themselves.
Let's give prisoners the chance to rehabilitate, not take away all human dignity and expect them to come out and "fly right"
heymamma
29-06-2006, 10:20
heymamma- i feel your pain sweetie!!!
No you are not judged :no:
It's good to express your feelings, and you are jusitified to feel the way you do, remember you were the victim so no need to excuse yourself on how you feel, and if people do judge you, shame on them for doing so, as no one can know the hurt and pain you feel!
Thanks very much...i was so worried after i had already posted that people would think bad of me. :hugs:
Mister Noodle
29-06-2006, 10:30
Nicely put, bluegin.
Funny how opinions are so polarised on the issue, isn't it?
SamanthaJane
29-06-2006, 10:36
Yes its like a witch hunt.
Society is angry and sad so they are calling for blood to be spilled to make them feel better.
But it wont make anyone feel better to have this person killed.
Ivan Milat and Martin Bryant are both locked up and I dont think that our justice system is that bad that they would just let them out..
Its all based in emotion at the moment.
Before last week i never once thought of the death penalty being brought back. I was always against it. I always thought it was disgusting. But then i look at all these horrible murders that have been happening, particularly to young children, and it breaks my heart. I guess in some ways i think justice will be served if they were dead themselves. I guess its my automatic reaction to just think... sick f**** they should be killed themselves but then i think does this make me as bad as them? Who am i to say that someone should lose their life. Then i feel like a horrible person for even thinking it. I'm just sick of it. I'm sick of all these creeps commiting these violent acts towards innocent people. I feel like i have no control over anything anymore. I feel like i can only hope that no one will ever attack me. It really makes me wonder what causes someone to be so evil?
I pray to god they never let those creeps out. If they do, our justice system has failed every single one of us.
Mischief
29-06-2006, 10:43
I think paedophiles should be castrated! Sorry, but they are sickening discusting monsters!
Maybe no to the death penalty...cause there is always a chance the person is innocent, no matter how damning the evidence, but definately castrated.
I'm a victim myself, it had the potential to really screw up my life, its been a struggle. If anyone ever touches my child, I would seek revenge for him, I would go to jail.
Mister Noodle
29-06-2006, 11:07
Again, studies have shown that castration (chemical or otherwise) doesn't prevent recidivism.
Paedophilia isn't about sex. It's about power, and transgression, and a whole bunch of other unsavoury things. The people that do it are psychopaths, because anyone who isn't a psychopath makes sure it doesn't happen.
OscarTheGrouch
29-06-2006, 11:34
Because they're people.
Also remember that the victims are/were people also (probably law abiding) and so are their families. It works both ways.
Mischief
29-06-2006, 11:38
Yes, victims are people too....and they dont get a chance to choose.
i think yes if they have dna that says its them . but why relese them at all if they are repet affenders america does it for serious crimes 3rd strike you stay there till you die
SamanthaJane
29-06-2006, 11:47
I think if they were to bring back the death penalty it would cause a lot of distress, not because some people want it, some people dont, but because of where they draw the line.
They are saying well this guy committed this murder then and there, he should get the death penalty. Oh but this lady committed this murder here and there, she shouldnt get death penalty because her case is a little different. Who would decide who's case is more in need of a death penalty? I'd hate to be the one making those decisions...
Murder is murder to me, and if they kill one person for murder, shouldnt they then have to kill all convicted murderers for it to be justified...?
And thats never going to happen, so they can't bring it back. It's too hard to draw the a line.
Mister Noodle
29-06-2006, 11:47
And taking away that choice was the crime in the first place. That's the point: killing people is bad. That's why it's illegal. Passing it on doesn't take away from the original badness.
What do people imagine that reciprocal suffering will actually achieve?
"This person has done something bad. We must therefore to something equally bad to him, so that ______________". We must not fail to do this, or else ____________"
Fill in the blanks.
Ana Gram
29-06-2006, 11:53
I am reasonably sure that identical twins share identical DNA. I remember reading about one particular case in the US of a young man who was put away on DNA evidence plus witness identification, has never been in trouble with the law before and is adament he didn't do it. His twin has been in and out of jail but won't confess to anything. Although DNA is acurate, it isn't alway right.
Mum&bubs
29-06-2006, 11:56
I am reasonably sure that identical twins share identical DNA. I remember reading about one particular case in the US of a young man who was put away on DNA evidence plus witness identification, has never been in trouble with the law before and is adament he didn't do it. His twin has been in and out of jail but won't confess to anything. Although DNA is acurate, it isn't alway right.
Yep thats true my dad is a twin and has the exact same DNA as his twin brother. So if we got a DNA test it would say that my uncle is my father lol.
Mamaduke
29-06-2006, 12:37
There was also a case in the States where a young woman was killed in the late 50's. With today's technology they tested the DNA found at the scene and it didn't come back as a match with their prime suspect (who had never been charged) but matched with a man who had been in and out of prison.
The problem was that the man who's DNA matched that found at the scene was only 8 years old when the murder took place - so obviously he couldn't have done it.
Makes me wonder what would have happened had he'd been older.
I have stated in other post my total belief in the death penalty- if someone is convicted for murder, child molestation, rape etc- KILL EM! There is NO rehabilitation for these people- so why waste tax payer money keeping these *&^&%$$$%^ alive!
See to me, I dont see how this sort of attitude is any better, and if the death penalty was bought back in, who would decide what was worthy of death or not? Everyone would have a different opinion, in some countries you can be put to death for having some recreational marijuana in your pocket, in others it is used by corrupt government officials and others to silence those who oppose them. It would be used incorrectly, and there is never 100% certainty that it is the right person. Even if someone admits it, you have issues such as mental illness or other factors, such as self defence. To me it is simple, despite what someone has done, two wrongs dont make a right, and noone has the right to take the life of another, how is a state sanctioned murder any different to what the murderer/rapist/whatever did in the first place? Actually to me it is much much worse.
SamanthaJane
29-06-2006, 13:22
See to me, I dont see how this sort of attitude is any better, and if the death penalty was bought back in, who would decide what was worthy of death or not? .
Thats the point i made earlier in my post:yes: Who would they pick as the "special" person that would decicde these things?
In some countries you can be put to death for having some recreational marijuana in your pocket, in others it is used by corrupt government officials and others to silence those who oppose them. It would be used incorrectly, and there is never 100% certainty that it is the right person.
I see people's views on death penalty for murderers. But who's to say they'll start using it for people who carry a few recreational drugs in your bag. I think its horrid that in some countries people are put to death for carrying drugs. But in others, serial killers dont even face that harsh of a penalty.
I ask the question yet again- Where would they draw the line? Who makes that decision? The government i am guessing? Im sorry, but how on earth can a government have the ultimate power over who's life is more worthy than another person's? In fact, how can ANYBODY say one victim's life was more worthy?
our little treasures
29-06-2006, 13:24
I am sorry but I have to say death penalty for sure!! He has taken the life of this little girl and her families lifes as well as they will never enjoy life the same again!! Besides he was watching the police and everyone trying to find the little girl! SICK nad no fear or shame!!
our little treasures
29-06-2006, 13:25
I hope the prisoners give him some of his own treatment back, I know they will when he gets out of the protective unit.:fingerscrossed:
The problem with the death penalty is you can't reverse mistakes.
DNA isn't the be all and end all.
Example, your partner dies at home. Wow DNA evidence - you live there, of course it's there. You don't really have an alibi because you were driving to x from z at the projected time of death. The prosecuter builds a case based entirely on circumstantial evidence and goes for murder 1... you've got no way to prove you weren't there killing your spouse and nothing brings question to the course of events other than a lack of proof to your whereabouts. You're convicted. Two years later executed.
Three years later they catch a serial killer who's MO for the last year matched your partners murder, and he confesses to it. This is the part where you'd get a pardon, but oh, whoops, sorry didn't mean to execute you, you did seem guilty though because like... you know you killed your partner... oh nevermind. We'll just tell your children they lost both parents for no reason, that'll make growing up in a state home better knowing there remaining parent futilily spent every last family asset trying to clean their name.
I'm not sure how I feel about the death penalty in general, but I would support a one-off for this scumbag in Perth.
I hate him and I want him gone. He is of no further use.
as for a ONE OFF ..execution..?? what happens with the next murdered child..how do you judge one worse then another?
There is no worse if you kill and torture/rape arent they all equal crimes..
why just this guy? why not martin bryant? Ivan Milat?
Saddam Hussein??? all murderers.
Exact-a-mundo.
The death penalty like censorship is a slippery slope. In international matters like Saddam Hussein (note this is not sticking up for the guy, I think he's a *******) it's also a case of one soverign nation's values vs another percieved set of values. Who's to say what is right or wrong then before you know it you're off talking our God is better than your God and invading countries... oh wait scratch that last bit, we've already done that ;)
I find it funny (in an odd way, not funny ha-ha) though that if you off someone in NSW you might get 5-15 years, gang rape a girl and your doing a mandatory 25, so if you're going to gang rape people it's actually better to off them aswell. Odd thing the law.
CarolineF
29-06-2006, 13:59
After having worked in the legal system for over 13 years, I can think of nothing more worrying than reintroducing Capital punishment.
The value of much of the evidence put before the courts is dependent upon a persons interpretation of it. In truly horrific crimes where the authorities are under pressure to come up with a result, corners can be cut, leads not followed up etc. Sometimes when the police believe they have their man, they will mould and interpret the evidence to fit the suspect rather than ensuring all leads are followed up and investigate other suspects or theories.
Confessions are not always reliable. A case in point is that Fraser guy who admitted to murdering Natasha Ryan in Queensland. He was on trial for her murder when she reappeared!!!!:no: It turns out she actually ran away (again) from home and did not want to be found. she is now on trial in Brisbane for wasting police time etc over a number of years.:eek: Incidentally, she admits this, but syas it does not amount to wasting police time etc.
The reintroduction of the death penalty would not help to serve justice but would erode away its credibility. One accidental execution based on spurious evidence is one too many.:thumbsdown:
Well, as I said, I would support a one-off for this scumbag and I don't have an opinion on any other crime or any other criminal or what is worse on the scale of things.
I just want him gone. I realise that might sound irrational to some people, and that's okay, because my opinion counts for nothing even though my tax dollars are going to pay for him to be in prison. I don't want to change the whole system, I just want this particular person eradicated off this earth for the purely selfish reason that my baby will be here soon.
Call it nesting if you must!
SassyMummy
29-06-2006, 15:05
Something a few pages back astounded me...
Someone said something along the lines of, "CASTRATE them...not so sure about the death penalty, because what if it turns out they're innocent...but DEFINATELY castrate them!"
I was SHOCKED at the reasoning involved in such a thread.
Okay...so you don't KILL him just in case he's innocent, but it's okay to castrate him...even if he MIGHT be innocent after all? Does it not seem equally unfair to remove a potentially innocent man's sexual parts and THEN discover, oops, he actually WAS innocent...?
I think that's the major thing here...you can NEVER find out who is innocent and who isn't...not with 100% certainty.
DNA, like Barry earlier said, isn't everything. What if, for example, I had a physical fight with my DP because he was discovered cheating, and he ended up with parts of my skin underneath his fingernails. He also has scratches on his arm, and a few bruises (as do I). The neighbours hear us yell all sorts of things to each other, including things like, "You stupid b*tch I wish you were dead!" Me, being utterly depressed, later decide to kill myself, by mixing draino in with (insert drink here)...and I use a cup I find beside the sink (therefore, it has already been used, and probably has fingerprints on it as a result). I die in the house, with all sorts of evidence to prove my DP guilty of my murder.
Don't go on about how this situation is far-fetched...while it's pretty straight-to-the-point, it IS something that could easily happen.
Someone said something along the lines of, "CASTRATE them...not so sure about the death penalty, because what if it turns out they're innocent...but DEFINATELY castrate them!"
There's castration, chemical castration and chemical castration.
Castration in it's basic form turns the person into an eunuch, ie no sex organs.
Chemical castration in one form can cease testostorone & sperm production turning the most vile of kiddy-rapists into people with no sexual desires at all, usually resulting in a ceasing of such activity as it's "boring".
The other format of chemical castration is the chemical block of sperm production ceasing the ability to reproduce but not giving society the burden of someone slowly dying of a lack of testostorone. It's also being investigated as a form of birth control as it's reversable with a second injection if you want to have kids or say... made a mistake. The only problem with this would be if Joe Citizen can reverse it so can Joe Hands-On-The-Kiddies.
Mister Noodle
29-06-2006, 15:21
Incorrect.
Chemical castration reduces the desire/capability for sex, but this doesn't prevent recidivism. Paedophilia is not borne of an excess of sexual desire, it's about power games. Where CC has been tried, they just switch to other forms of molestation.
Mister Noodle
29-06-2006, 15:21
princess_niamh: snap!
SassyMummy
29-06-2006, 15:23
Thanks for that Barry - it's interesting to hear that there are many different types of castration.
Still, if someone who is castrated by ANY manner, turns out to be innocent...it's not really something that's fair, is it? And if Barry's 2nd example of chemical castration (the one that can be reversed) CAN indeed be reversed, then it really isn't serving its purpose then, is it?
Having NO sex drive might not be the same to being DEAD...but I doubt it would work too well in a relationship and I think that THAT is unfair in itself. I still feel sorry for people imprisoned who ARE innocent, but it's easier to release someone from jail than it is to renew their sex-drive/bring them back to life.
SamanthaJane
29-06-2006, 15:25
But no penis does nto solve anything..
there are a hell of alot of ways to molest someone and you dont just need a penis to do it!
Yup:yes:
And what would they do to women....?
SassyMummy
29-06-2006, 15:25
Good work Princess Niamh and Mr Noodle ... I remember mentioning the whole "there are other ways to molest someone" in a post WAY back...but I COMPLETELY forgot that point just when I needed it!:thumbsup:
Incorrect.
Chemical castration reduces the desire/capability for sex, but this doesn't prevent recidivism. Paedophilia is not borne of an excess of sexual desire, it's about power games. Where CC has been tried, they just switch to other forms of molestation.
Note "usually resulting" something like 72% of one of the CC trials didn't reoffend and reported no desire to do so. Leaving 28% having a desire to do so, or the psychological need to.
I was actual going to do into the pyschological disorders that can also result in the offences occurring which may be the cause with the nature of the offence being the symptom but though that'd be too long winded ;P
heymamma
29-06-2006, 15:54
I do not believe castration will help with Paedophiles, as people have said its not all about the penis...i was molested for a long time & never was there any penis contact...sorry if that was TMI ..i really am sorry, if i offended someone.:(
I do not believe castration will help with Paedophiles, as people have said its not all about the penis...i was molested for a long time & never was there any penis contact...sorry if that was TMI ..i really am sorry, if i offended someone.:(
Hun, you are just letting us in on a tiny bit of your experiences in this area to clarify your point, and in doing so, humanising a situation we usually have chanelled to us throught the media. :thumbsup: for the courage to talk about it, and :hugs:, your post isn't offensive, you handle the topic admirably
maybe1more
29-06-2006, 16:35
Well said Bluegin:thumbsup:
heymamma
29-06-2006, 16:41
Thankyou all :hugs:
CarolineF
29-06-2006, 17:49
Just on a reliability point re chemical castration - an offender can have it done, but he can easily reverse its effect (whilst still taking it) by the illegal use of synthetic testosterone.
It is hard to get hold of though, and the dosage has to be quite precise i believe.
Im sorry but our prisons are a holiday if i want internet i must pay if i want board and food i must pay to do a course i must pay out of my pocket free medical no waiting list if you decide to kill an innocent child let the parents decide how that criminal will die if i could change our criminal law i would bend over backwards to do so to teach these [text deleted by moderator]a lesson. prison is a holiday for these criminals...........
I could not agree more, i believe only certain cases i'e 100% proof even if that takes years and they have the compleate facts etc!
Like i have said if some one did that to my children then i would want them off this earth!....these people do not have human rights etc
Sarah payne (england ) was murdered by a pedo, he was a repeat offender ( let out of prison because they thought he was cured:rolleyes: ) only to take her life...the family was torn apart, father turned to drink as his way out, he beat the mother as a result of his anger...was a total different person because of what happend to his baby girl...the parents split and the family ruined!!...so why should they have the right to do this and still sit in his jail sell and watch tv an be fed...mmmm because they are people:no: ...animals
and the 2 girls in england, whos caretaker in their school murdered them...and dumped there body in a shallow grave:mad: ..oh it goes on and will not stop, and we are paying the tax payers from being protected and live the life in comfort...if not the death penelty...rott in jail..no tv...matress in the corner, and a bucket for a toilet...i'd treat an animal better than i would treat them scum!!
Im confused,:confused:
There are alot of posts FOR the dealth penalty which I am very surprised by. However are you for the dealth penalty within our current legal system or in a hyperthetical fantasy world where we can prove 100% guilt and only for certain crimes which we will automaticaly know are the more horrendous to deserve it.
We don't have the dealth penalty in Australia as it has no place in our legal system which as we all no is not perfect.
There are some very stong opinons on this threat and it has made for some great reading. For all the reasons that have been stated in previous posts and written so well I am adamantly against the dealth penalty. I cried when the australian boy van nguyen was hung and was ashamed when I heard so many Australians saying he deserved to lose his life.
I know alot of you are saying only for horrendous crimes but where do you draw the line. :(
SamanthaJane
29-06-2006, 22:31
Can we make an anonymous poll for this topic?
I dont know how many people are for/against, and it would be interesting to see the results:yes:
bambikins
29-06-2006, 23:59
Hi, i'm fairly new to posting as such..........but I too am absolutely glued to this thread and am mesmerised by these posts. I have a few things to say though, and will try to be brief but courteous.
My heart goes out to all that have been touched by evil, such as murder, rape, etc. A few have mentioned of their traumatic experiences on this particular thread and all I can say is that I feel for your pain and am sending out lots of love and light to you all:hugs: . I know that this is meant to be a thread of debate.......but when someone comes on here with their heart felt experiences, I urge some of you to stop trying so hard to defend these perpetrators and at least acknowledge the people who have been victims, rather than ramble over a post like it was never there. I just noticed that some of you were so into the debate of fighting for a murderers life, that some peoples posts that were reaching out were being ignored. (that is what I felt anyway)
And a response to annie 71 in regard to van nguyen. I too, shed a tear for all the thousands of young Australians who have died from heroin overdoses. Most who have had no family, education or support...............where was their
rally when they were laying in the morgue waiting for their bodies to be identified.:crying:
I hope I haven't offended anyone, just wanted to add a bit of care and love to an otherwise rivetting thread.
(sorry about my appauling spelling)
That guy that took that little girls life does not deserve his own and he will never be any good to anyone
Mister Noodle
30-06-2006, 00:36
The thing is... I find tragedy in both situations. Does this reflect badly on me?
While we're at it...
But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
Whoever among you is without sin, let them cast the first stone.
Also something about loving the sinner but hating the sin... though this is actually apocryphal.
Ah well, whoever it was can't have mattered very much...
Mamaduke
30-06-2006, 01:05
Mister Noodle!!!
There may be hope for you yet!!
I'll keep praying...;)
Mister Noodle
30-06-2006, 01:18
I just remembered the other half of that quote..
But I say to you: Whoever among you is without sin, let them cast the first stone.
*whizzzzzz* *CRACK*
MUM! Stop that! I was TRYING to make a POINT here!
reAllytee
30-06-2006, 01:22
Lol MD you will be there for ages :p :laughing:
CarolineF
30-06-2006, 07:11
Hi, i'm fairly new to posting as such..........but I too am absolutely glued to this thread and am mesmerised by these posts. I have a few things to say though, and will try to be brief but courteous.
My heart goes out to all that have been touched by evil, such as murder, rape, etc. A few have mentioned of their traumatic experiences on this particular thread and all I can say is that I feel for your pain and am sending out lots of love and light to you all:hugs: . I know that this is meant to be a thread of debate.......but when someone comes on here with their heart felt experiences, I urge some of you to stop trying so hard to defend these perpetrators and at least acknowledge the people who have been victims, rather than ramble over a post like it was never there. I just noticed that some of you were so into the debate of fighting for a murderers life, that some peoples posts that were reaching out were being ignored. (that is what I felt anyway)
And a response to annie 71 in regard to van nguyen. I too, shed a tear for all the thousands of young Australians who have died from heroin overdoses. Most who have had no family, education or support...............where was their
rally when they were laying in the morgue waiting for their bodies to be identified.:crying:
I hope I haven't offended anyone, just wanted to add a bit of care and love to an otherwise rivetting thread.
(sorry about my appauling spelling)
That is right, but you also overlook the large number of innocent people who have been executed in this world then had their convictions posthumously overturned, as well as those hwose cases have been overturned on appeal and been acquitted 10, 20, 30, 40 years later. Had they been executed it would have been too late for them.
Nobody here is belittling the suffering of the victims, just because a person takes an opposing point of view does not make us all unthinking hard lefties. We just accept that our legal system is not flawless, has been open to corruption etc. From working in it for so long I have seen appalling miscarriages of justice, primarily in cases where parents have had their children removed on spurious medical evidence in the UK that on review several years later has been overturned due to certain inaccuracies. These \families never got their kids back, they were adopted out under that system. The UK has also had a fair amount of old capital cases reviewed. :eek: To make matters worse, 3 of the mothers involved were also convicted of murdering their children, not just one child but 2 each on the same medical evidence on the basis that the odds of having 2 SIDS deaths in the one family was something like 750,000,000:1. Prof Roy Meadows was the doctor. Those women may have faced the death penalty had it existed. The true figures came out later at more like 250:1. They all spent years in jail, and the Prf was discredited with the result that a major public review of all cases in which he gave evidence took place.
It does the families of the victims no good to have it all trawled over decades later cos of mistakes, and the erroneous death of an innocent man.
Remember that this man in Perth has yet to be tried. Some people in the press have already made it very difficult for our prosecutors in Australia to do their jobs properly because of the level of erroneous and unfair reporting leading to the groundless linking of this man with another murder. It is believed he may not now get a fair trial.
Mister Noodle: I agree with you on this one - there is tragedy in both situations.:gloomy:
SassyMummy
30-06-2006, 15:31
I know that this is meant to be a thread of debate.......but when someone comes on here with their heart felt experiences, I urge some of you to stop trying so hard to defend these perpetrators and at least acknowledge the people who have been victims, rather than ramble over a post like it was never there.
Are you talking about Heymamma's post?
I felt for her when reading her posts...but I just didn't have anything decent to say to her on the matter...so I didn't say a thing. There was no point in me going "awwww...poor you...:hugs: :hugs: " because I feel that doing that is kind of condescending and not very comforting anyway. Instead, I chose to say nothing at all...and continue with the thread.
twolittlegirls
04-07-2006, 16:18
This is one thing that I can't decide on. I think that it's a good idea in some ways yet in others its not. I do believe it is the easy way out for them.
These people (although they should be called monsters) should have all there rights taken away. They should be locked up and let out for one hour a day. They should not be allowed to watch telly or have anything given to them that is entertainment. They should be made to sleep on a concrete slab. The problem is that this doesn't happen. They still get rights and the ability to do things for fun and it makes me sick. These monsters have molested, raped and killed people. They should be treated like something that is stuck on your shoe.
My Dad is a prison guard in a maximum security prison. If he does something to upset the prisoners, they can report him. Why is this?
As I said, its a topic I can't decide on but I do know that if it was up to me the monsters out there that commit awful crimes should be treated like dirt.(I was going to say animals but I treat my animals very well!)
And thats my 2 cents!!
twolittlegirls
04-07-2006, 19:55
I have just been reading through some of the older post. A lot of people are saying that prison life is hard for the prisoners.
SO IT SHOULD BE................... They should be treated like ****. They should have to watch over there shoulders. These people have taken away the life of another person, the right to see there family, to watch tv, to go to the toilet. If all it takes for the prisoner to see there family is to have his/her bum searched, I think he/she has got off lightly, at least they get to see there family again.
I think that now makes it 3 cents!!
Mamaduke
04-07-2006, 20:12
I have just been reading through some of the older post. A lot of people are saying that prison life is hard for the prisoners.
SO IT SHOULD BE................... They should be treated like ****. They should have to watch over there shoulders. These people have taken away the life of another person, the right to see there family, to watch tv, to go to the toilet. If all it takes for the prisoner to see there family is to have his/her bum searched, I think he/she has got off lightly, at least they get to see there family again.
I think that now makes it 3 cents!!
Yep, that was me...and the person I was speaking of didn't rape, murder or harm anyone, let alone a child...that was my point - it's hard, and it should be...but harder than some of you realised thank you very much!
Ana Gram
04-07-2006, 20:34
I have just been reading through some of the older post. A lot of people are saying that prison life is hard for the prisoners.
SO IT SHOULD BE................... They should be treated like ****. They should have to watch over there shoulders. These people have taken away the life of another person, the right to see there family, to watch tv, to go to the toilet. If all it takes for the prisoner to see there family is to have his/her bum searched, I think he/she has got off lightly, at least they get to see there family again.
I think that now makes it 3 cents!!
Not everyone in prison has taken a life.
Harmony83
04-07-2006, 21:40
Im not normally one to get into debates, but I thought for a change I would express my opinion - hopefully I dont offend anyone!!
If I was asked about a year ago if I was for the death penalty I would have said no! But in the last year or so every time I watch the news all I hear about is a child being murdered, someone being tortured, a baby being raped its never ending... Something needs to be done, obviously a jail term is not stopping these animals, so maybe we should start looking into a higher form of punishment. I believe that if you rape, torture, murder in cold blood your rights as a human being cease to exist. If those 2 boys who tortured, sexually abused and murdered that toddler were executed, I would not feel bad, if that man that murdered the 8 yr old girl was executed, I would not feel bad, if Martin Bryant was executed, I would not feel bad.
People like that are scum, they do not deserve their life, and I truly hope they get whats coming for them!
I am sorry if I have offended anyone...
Mamaduke
04-07-2006, 21:54
and I truly hope they get whats coming for them!
And they will...for all eternity...
but I don't think that's for you or I to decide when that eternity should begin.
MonkeyMum05
04-07-2006, 22:00
I have just been reading through some of the older post. A lot of people are saying that prison life is hard for the prisoners.
SO IT SHOULD BE................... They should be treated like ****. They should have to watch over there shoulders.
Yeah, that'd be great... then when they are relesed, they'll be even more animalistic than before, and destroy even more peoples lives.
twolittlegirls
04-07-2006, 22:08
Yeah, that'd be great... then when they are relesed, they'll be even more animalistic than before, and destroy even more peoples lives.
Shall I roll out the red carpet then.
Commit a crime of any kind and pay the price. I am referring to a maximum security prison.
twolittlegirls
05-07-2006, 07:41
Monk and Mama,
I think we should agree to diseagree on this topic. You have your reasons, and I have mine. Neither of us have the right to say that one is wrong. I would rather leave it as is before it gets to heated.
Im not normally one to get into debates, but I thought for a change I would express my opinion - hopefully I dont offend anyone!!
If I was asked about a year ago if I was for the death penalty I would have said no! But in the last year or so every time I watch the news all I hear about is a child being murdered, someone being tortured, a baby being raped its never ending... Something needs to be done, obviously a jail term is not stopping these animals, so maybe we should start looking into a higher form of punishment. I believe that if you rape, torture, murder in cold blood your rights as a human being cease to exist. If those 2 boys who tortured, sexually abused and murdered that toddler were executed, I would not feel bad, if that man that murdered the 8 yr old girl was executed, I would not feel bad, if Martin Bryant was executed, I would not feel bad.
People like that are scum, they do not deserve their life, and I truly hope they get whats coming for them!
I am sorry if I have offended anyone...
Totally agree!! :yes: These people are so low, they don't deserve to live at all! I wouldn't feel bad at all if those people got the D.P. they definately deserve it!
Aquamarine
05-07-2006, 12:06
Definantly life with no chance of release but not for the death penalty at all.
I do believe that some people get off way way too lightly though.
My problems with the death penalty is
1. What if an innocent person is framed for a crime. The last person hanged in Australia was actually innocent. This could include you or your loved one!
2. They should suffer here for what they have done here on earth, death is probably an easier option for some criminals.
Referring to the case about that poor dear girl in Perth. Obviously they have caught the right person, he belongs in prison for life with no chance of parole.:shame:
I do feel everyone is entitled to their own opinions on this one though and I can understand the amount of anger toward this little b@$+@(* though because I felt it too.:thumbsdown:
Harmony83
05-07-2006, 12:18
What if an innocent person is framed for a crime. The last person hanged in Australia was actually innocent. This could include you or your loved one!
Thats the problem isn't it, to prove them 100% guilty, how do you do that??? Maybe they could be kept in jail, for a certain amount of years, decades before being executed - im not sure... All I know is that since that email circulated about the little Toddler in the UK, I can't stop thinking about him and the pain he went through, it just keep racing through my mind, its not fair! He gets tortured in the worst way and murdered and his killers are free!
What happens when they do it again...
Im not sure what the solution is, I just don't think that they deserve to live...
antoniasmum
05-07-2006, 13:32
The thing is that when they are just sent to prison, it rarely is a "life term" as they always let them out early for "good behaviour" and 99% of the time they re-offend....
I never used to believe in the death penalty as it costs more than just sending a criminal to prison.... all the appeals, etc cost the taxpayer a hell of a lot more than just keeping a crim in prison.
I now believe in the death penalty for such heinous crimes..... like raping children. They never get cured and they always get parole..... and then commit more crimes against children.
Maybe we don't have the right to take a person's life..... then build more prisons and protect society from predators and dangerous criminals.... and never release them!!!
CarolineF
05-07-2006, 13:52
Thats the problem isn't it, to prove them 100% guilty, how do you do that??? Maybe they could be kept in jail, for a certain amount of years, decades before being executed - im not sure... All I know is that since that email circulated about the little Toddler in the UK, I can't stop thinking about him and the pain he went through, it just keep racing through my mind, its not fair! He gets tortured in the worst way and murdered and his killers are free!
What happens when they do it again...
Im not sure what the solution is, I just don't think that they deserve to live...
The killers of this child were children themselves at the time of the murder...aged just 11. Would you have had them executed? even if the country had capital punishment we would have to draw the line somewhere...surely?!!!
Mister Noodle
05-07-2006, 14:07
I'm just mystified and saddened by people's attitudes, I really am.
When someone kills, maims or tortures, it's about who and what they are - it's got nothing to do with the victim.
When we kill, maim or torture them in return... it's still just as much about who and what we are - it's got nothing to do with them.
It doesn't matter what the victim did to anger the killer. Maybe they ruined his life, ate his pets... whatever, it doesn't matter. What matters is that they acted on their anger - and we as a society do not tolerate it.
Similarly, then, it doesn't matter what the killer did, as far as we're concerned. Even if he tried to strangle the judge with the guts of the court reporter, proving guilt beyond any hope of denial... doesn't matter. What matters is that we not act on our anger - because we, as a society do not tolerate it.
We're better people than that. That's the whole point.
If we would torture and kill those that outrage us, then what possible grounds do we have for outrage when others follow our example?
CarolineF
05-07-2006, 14:18
I do think that a line has to be drawn somewhere. Many people kill for many different reasons. I remember some time ago the following questio being asked:
What is the difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist? They both kill people in order to follow their own ideals, but society's views on one are startingly different than the other. Terrorists would be executed in a heartbeat due to public opinion if the death penalty existed. Freedom fighters may be lauded even though they will be breaking the laws of their own country.
There are so many aspects to the death penalty argument that would need consideration. I am and always have been totally against the idea and having worked in the legal systen for so many years, i see grave injustices should it return.
bronny-jane
05-07-2006, 16:26
as much as things in this world sadden and anger me, i dont believe in the death penalty at all.
i think it would be worse to live with the guilt of what you have done, then to be killed
as much as things in this world sadden and anger me, i dont believe in the death penalty at all.
i think it would be worse to live with the guilt of what you have done, then to be killed
But many of them don't even feel guilty :no:
bronny-jane
05-07-2006, 17:07
But many of them don't even feel guilty :no:
doesnt mean they deserve to die though:no:
doesnt mean they deserve to die though:no:
I disagree with you Bronny :) Those people are scum, the lowest people on earth :yes:
but Cinta...they are people.
mentally illpeople...we cant just kill them..lock themaway yes..have them see doctors give them medication..
but hwo can we justify killing or torturing people??
how???
you are talking about someone child..brother/uncle
yes they have done something terrible but we cant just kill them.
I disagree :) They're sicko's in my opinion. I dont see them as 'mentally ill'. They just make me sooo angry and they should die :yes: :devil6: :o
I have done a far bit of editing in this thread. Please keep it on topic without the accusations, if it continues the thread will be closed. So does anyone have anything new to add to this discussion?
misskittyfantastico
05-07-2006, 19:40
is there ever anything new in these discussions?
Actually I do have something new. I attended an international criminal law conference in Brisbane earlier in the week and was interested to hear a Nigerian Supreme Court judge ask the question of why on earth does Australia not have the death penalty.
The answer from the esteemed panel (a Queensland Court of Appeal Judge and the New South Wales Director of Public Prosecutions from memory) reflected this thread in part. They pointed out that if you ask most people in Australia if they supported the death penalty most would say yes, but that if you then explained that a person may be found to be innocent after they have been put to death most would change their minds and say that they would prefer that the person was never allowed back into the community. You can't pardon someone posthumously.
It was pointed out to the Nigerian Judge that many countries in the world, including the UK, have moved away from the death penalty. Instead many jurisdictions are moving towards truth in sentencing, where a life sentence actually means just that - life. The NSW DPP pointed out that at some point in the future, given the approximately 30 people in NSW jails for life, the prisons would need to start building a geriatric prison wing - and he wasn't saying it tongue in cheek.
So - rather than wishing people dead, complaining that they get it too good in prison, or condemning sufferers of mental illness, something positive you can do is lobby your state governments to start moving towards a system where a person who is sentenced to life will actually serve the rest of their life in prison - not be let out on parole at some point. Might be more effective that attacking each other's views and might make our society a safer place to live.
misskittyfantastico
05-07-2006, 20:06
thankyou draught. You have restored my faith.
bronny-jane
05-07-2006, 20:07
I disagree with you Bronny :) Those people are scum, the lowest people on earth :yes:
hmm maybe but what if this killer was your child, should they face the same penalty of death as others would.
these people are someones baby, something terrible has happened to them for tragic outcomes to occur.
perhaps we could put more effort into raising our children and those we have contact with to be more aware of their actions and the consequences involved, when dealing with others emotional wellbeing
twolittlegirls
05-07-2006, 20:10
So - rather than wishing people dead, complaining that they get it too good in prison, or condeming sufferers of mental illness, something positive you can do is lobby your state governments to start moving towards a system where a person who is sentenced to life will actually serve the rest of their life in prison - not be let out on parole at some point. Might be more effective that attacking each other's views and might make our society a safer place to live.
Can I just say thankyou for your comments.:yelclap: They were very interesting. I really like to hear something other than *****ing at each other!!
Again THANKYOU
Interesting post Draught, thanks :thumbsup:
sam's mum
05-07-2006, 20:26
Sarah payne (england ) was murdered by a pedo, he was a repeat offender ( let out of prison because they thought he was cured ) only to take her life...the family was torn apart, father turned to drink as his way out, he beat the mother as a result of his anger...was a total different person because of what happend to his baby girl...the parents split and the family ruined!!...so why should they have the right to do this and still sit in his jail sell and watch tv an be fed...mmmm because they are people ...animals
so at the moment we feel sorry for the dad, because someone did something to his daughter and as a result of his anger he beat the mother. What if he had beaten the mother to death... now he has killed someone, and we are 100% sure it was him - so he dies too!!
Robert Heinlein (science fiction writer) wrote of multiple worlds, and in one of those worlds the travellers arrived at the scene of a car accident. The went to help the 'victim' but were stopped by police. It turns out that this was justice in action. The current 'victim' had been the driver of a car that had caused an accident - their punishment? run over on a remote road, held for 34 minutes before having their leg amputated at the scene of the accident and transported to hospital. But they would not have to go to jail or have any other punishment for causing the accident. EYE FOR AN EYE. in a literal sense naturally.
Harmony83
05-07-2006, 21:47
If they served Life in prison, with bare basics, that would be the next best thing (so to speak), i just don't like the thought that these animals could ever be back in society... Is it worth the risk to an innocent life... And I do believe those 11 year old boys should spend the rest of the Life in prison... If my 'baby' ever did what they did, I would want him in prison for ever... That may sound harsh, but its how I feel...
misskittyfantastico
05-07-2006, 22:51
but you've never been in the situation H83. You never know how you'll think when a situation actually arises.
SassyMummy
05-07-2006, 22:53
I certainly would not want to punished for what I did as an 11-year-old NOW...as a person, I have changed so much. I am nothing like I was when I was 11.
11 is still a child, and I don't care what you think you know, 11 will never be anything BUT a child. I would be ashamed to live in a society where it was acceptable to execute an 11-year-old child.
misskittyfantastico
05-07-2006, 22:57
It has been said that a reflection of a society is how they treat their worst. I think and hope we are a fair, just society and we believe in human rights.
People who commit crimes are still human.
bronny-jane
06-07-2006, 07:26
I would be ashamed to live in a society where it was acceptable to execute an 11-year-old child.
:yelclap: me too, thats ridiculous to think death is a suitable punishment for a child:no:
twolittlegirls
06-07-2006, 08:00
I think we all have to appreciate what each other are saying. As some people are saying, these people are scum and should pay for what they have done. But then to prove them 100% guilty would be really hard.
I am unsure if I am for or against the death penalty. I'm not a believer in an eye for an eye. There are a few prisoners in the prison where my Dad works who have murdered a person who has molested there child. Although I'm not saying what they did was right, how could you sentence them to the death penalty. But if you believe in an eye for an eye, they would be facing the death penalty.
Like so many have said as well, imagine if it was your child who had commited the crime. It would be hard to know they have been sentenced to death. But then it would be hard if your the parent of a victim too.
Maybe agreeing to disagree is the way to go on this subject. I do know that everybody makes valid points which they have there reasoning for.
childcarer
06-07-2006, 20:02
I could never support the death penalty. For someone to commit some of the crimes mentioned on this post, a person would have to be devoid of feeling, morals and any sort of respect for humanity but I don't think killing people is the answer as it sets a bad example for our kids.
An eye for an eye leaves us all blind (to quote another poster).
personally, i think the death penatly is letting them off,
they basiclly get let off, while there friends and family get punished for something they did,
Thats how i see it
I would rather see someone be stuck in a concrete box with no tv or luxuries for the rest of there life,
although, i have seen some cases where people were 100% sure that that person comminted the crime, and 50 years later there let off through DNA or new evidence,
our criminal system has too many holes in it, to say 100% they commited that crime,
unless of course they were caught red handed, which im sure doesnt happen very offen.
I think people judge too quickly, people are too set on getting REVENGE, then actually finding out the truth, people who have lost someone just want someone to blame.
Harmony83
07-07-2006, 11:40
personally, i think the death penatly is letting them off,
they basiclly get let off, while there friends and family get punished for something they did,
Thats how i see it
That is also how I see it...
I don't know if execution is the answer, but what we are doing now doesn't seem to be working... I read in the paper that the man that killed the little 8 year old girl, was actually arrested previously for sexual assault on another 8 year old girl, Im not sure what the circumstances were, but he was let go and now look at what happened...
My only concern is for the safety of my child, and it scares me that there a convicted murderers and rapist, set free from serving there 'time' in prison... I mean a child can't even go into a public toilet in a shopping centre anymore... We live in such an ugly world and I wish there was a solution...
Those 11 year old boys, did something unimaginable, and I pity there parents for there situation...but I don't think they should get off any lighter just because they are 11 years old, yes they are children, but the crime they did was just ruthless and brutal... these boys didn't steal some lollies or a toy, they [B]tortured and murdered[B], someones baby boy... they should be locked up for life, either in a mental institution or prison, they should not be allowed to be free and given the opportunity to do it again... What would you say to the parents of the next victim - oh they were only 11 when they killed that child, they deserve another chance!
I pity the family of a victim and the family of the murderer, I will never pity or forgive a cold blooded murderer... No matter what age...
Ana Gram
07-07-2006, 12:09
I don't know if execution is the answer, but what we are doing now doesn't seem to be working... I read in the paper that the man that killed the little 8 year old girl, was actually arrested previously for sexual assault on another 8 year old girl, Im not sure what the circumstances were, but he was let go and now look at what happened...
My only concern is for the safety of my child, and it scares me that there a convicted murderers and rapist, set free from serving there 'time' in prison... I mean a child can't even go into a public toilet in a shopping centre anymore... We live in such an ugly world and I wish there was a solution...
I pity the family of a victim and the family of the murderer, I will never pity or forgive a cold blooded murderer... No matter what age...
This was apparently as the police line of questioning was too harsh and was deemed inadmisable by the judge. The police who spoke at the trial said that they were certain that he would do it again and it would be worse.
I know what happens to familes of people put to the death penalty. It's been over 40 years in my family and the effect can still be clearly seen.
IAdoreYou
14-07-2006, 17:05
personally, i think the death penatly is letting them off,
they basiclly get let off, while there friends and family get punished for something they did,
Thats how i see it
I would rather see someone be stuck in a concrete box with no tv or luxuries for the rest of there life,
although, i have seen some cases where people were 100% sure that that person comminted the crime, and 50 years later there let off through DNA or new evidence,
our criminal system has too many holes in it, to say 100% they commited that crime,
unless of course they were caught red handed, which im sure doesnt happen very offen.
I think people judge too quickly, people are too set on getting REVENGE, then actually finding out the truth, people who have lost someone just want someone to blame.
I totally agree!!!
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