Will/Did you choose circumcision?

[bada]

Will/Did you choose circumcision for your healthy baby boy?

*private poll

[Opinionated]

Even if my child was having foreskin issues, I would exhaust all other treatments (eg, steroid creams, antibiotics) before considering its removal. In a child with no foreskin issues, I find it's removal for the parents choice abhorrent.

[Luna Lovegood]

No I wouldn't choose it.

DF and I dislike the idea of RIC.

We wouldn't choose to circ unless it was our last option.

[Bexta]

I voted no... I don't agree with RIC.

[Mummaholic]

Didn't, wouldn't.

[Myztik]

I added the other poll option for you ;)

[bada]

Wow thanks Myztik! I didn't know you guys had poll power too!!!

[Myztik]

I think only super mods or higher can do it..

[JasmineLouise]

nope, never :)

[Mathermy]

I think only super mods or higher can do it..

you are soooooooooooo cool :yelclap::smiliedance: some moight even say "super" cool :)

[A Party of Five]

Wow thanks Myztik! I didn't know you guys had poll power too!!!

They sure do have needed them to use the power a few times myself :o

[Myztik]

LOL thanks Malol :p

now this thread isn't about me so continue as you were :laughing:

[Mathermy]

They sure do have needed them to use the power a few times myself :o

what?:eek:

You make a poll?

well I never!:p

[A Party of Five]

what?:eek:

You make a poll?

well I never!:p

I have made a poll or two in my time :p

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

Even if my child was having foreskin issues, I would exhaust all other treatments (eg, steroid creams, antibiotics) before considering its removal. In a child with no foreskin issues, I find it's removal for the parents choice abhorrent.
:iagree:

I never would. There is no reason for it. It perplexes me how some people justify it.:confused:

[traseal]

no we didnt cirumcise and no we wont in futue

[MsMummy]

No. It wasn't even a topic of conversation before or after the baby was born.

My partner looked perplexed when I told him people fight about it on the Internet.:D

[reAllytee]

When advised it for so called medical reasons with Boof we agreed thinking it was the best option for various reasons ... Yep probably stupid but we did the best we could at the time.

G was done for medical reasons & this made me realise the vast difference between the two ....

Let me also say there can be other reasons for circ'ing that cant be solved by using creams or what not ... G is a little bit of an oddity granted but it isnt always a simple reason that can see you 'exhaust' other possibilities.

Would I choose RIC next time nope :no:

[Solarberry]

i was in hospital on friday for a gall bladder removal. Anyway, it was the same day for circumsisions. Never before have I really cared about it, prob cause I have a girl, but I could hear all those babies scraming and crying and it broke my heart. The nurse told me the one screaming probably just had a wee and that it would be stinging a little. Put me right off I have to say.

[3'llhavetodo]

:iagree:

I never would. There is no reason for it. It perplexes me how some people justify it.:confused:


I think that that is easy to say unless you are in the situation your self. I personally have chosen not to circumcise either of my sons but I have a girlfriend who had to have her son circumcised at age 7(i think) due to recurring infection as his foreskin wouldn't roll back. Her DH had the same problem.

I have another girlfriend who circumcised her son as his Dad was and they didn't want him to feel left out:confused:

[Hollywood]

No, I didn't, and wouldn't

[Chunkydunks]

Nope.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

I think that that is easy to say unless you are in the situation your self. I personally have chosen not to circumcise either of my sons but I have a girlfriend who had to have her son circumcised at age 7(i think) due to recurring infection as his foreskin wouldn't roll back. Her DH had the same problem.
I never said I wouldn't do it for medical reasons.:confused: I would only do it if all other avenues were exhausted.


I have another girlfriend who circumcised her son as his Dad was and they didn't want him to feel left out:confused:

That I definately do not agree with. Doesn't make sense, surely they look different everywhere else?

[BigRedV]

I have another girlfriend who circumcised her son as his Dad was and they didn't want him to feel left out:confused:

I don't understand people who do it for this reason :eek: How many times is the boy going to look at his father's penis???

I would be more worried about my DS (if I had one) getting laughed at in the showers after the footy wondering why he had a piece missing when the others didn't.

I would not do my son when and if I ever have one :no:

[Looshkin]

Nope I wouldn't decide to have a Dr perform cosmetic surgery on someone elses penis.

I wouldn't make an executive decision about it either when the child was to young to decide.
I just think it's a safer choice to let them decide, worse case is they need it done later and so have a *reason* as to why they are different to 90% of boys their age.

Again would rather err on the side of caution, as the worst case scenario of *not* doing it - is that it gets done later, As apposed to the worst case scenario of them regretting or resenting my decision.

I'm sure if it was required or requested by the penis's owner, it could be quite easily done under general anesthetic at a time that general anesthetic and after surgery pain medication could be utilised - As apposed to not using pain relief which is beyond my scope of understanding.

*shrug*
I don't see why any parent sees it as their decision. I really don't.

[Father]

I am.
My boy is.
I would definately do it again.

I know too many people that have had to get it done when they are older, and it doesn't sound very good at all. Especially after seeing how well they cope with it when they are an infant.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

I am.
My boy is.
I would definately do it again.

I know too many people that have had to get it done when they are older, and it doesn't sound very good at all. Especially after seeing how well they cope with it when they are an infant.

Many infants only appear to cope because they go into shock. I am sorry you mistakenly thought that it doesn't hurt infants just as much as older boys/ adults.

[Father]

I am sorry you mistakenly thought that it doesn't hurt infants just as much as older boys/ adults.

Don't be sorry. It wasn't a mistake. The procedure is a fair bit different between an adult and an infant. If you've spoken to a man that had it done you would know that.

I'm sorry you mistakenly thought they were all done the same way and had the same recovery times.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

Don't be sorry. It wasn't a mistake. The procedure is a fair bit different between an adult and an infant. If you've spoken to a man that had it done you would know that.

I'm sorry you mistakenly thought they were all done the same way and had the same recovery times.
Oh you have spoken to an infant then? What did they say? Oh that is right they can't talk yet.

I know several people who have had it done.

[Father]

Oh you have spoken to an infant then?


I was an infant. It was fine:)

Just like a needle:) (obviously joking)

As a mother, I'm sure you can tell when your baby is in distress and uncomfortable. The fact that I did not see any signs of discomfort after the 15min procedure speaks volumes. They may not be able to talk, but there body language says alot.

You have a look at a man 15mins after the op (when they wake up). You will see signs of their discomfort and pain.

[Opinionated]

I am.
My boy is.
I would definately do it again.

I know too many people that have had to get it done when they are older, and it doesn't sound very good at all. Especially after seeing how well they cope with it when they are an infant.

The thing is, you don't know how they cope. Infants are very limited in their ability to communicate. Just because they cannot communicate their feelings does not mean that their feelings do not exist.



Don't be sorry. It wasn't a mistake. The procedure is a fair bit different between an adult and an infant. If you've spoken to a man that had it done you would know that.

I'm sorry you mistakenly thought they were all done the same way and had the same recovery times. They may be different. A man has more skin to remove and more ability to communicate his experience of pain. That does not mean that that the experience is different for the individual. Some infants have no anesthetic and that has to be worse. Just because their pain cannot be expressed does not mean it does not exist. It's a ******** practice in my opinion and a human rights violation.

[Fellow Traveler]

Don't be sorry. It wasn't a mistake. The procedure is a fair bit different between an adult and an infant. If you've spoken to a man that had it done you would know that.

I'm sorry you mistakenly thought they were all done the same way and had the same recovery times.

Exactly, the big difference is the infant can't complain. He just has to deal with it.

[Father]

The thing is, you don't know how they cope. Infants are very limited in their ability to communicate. Just because they cannot communicate their feelings does not mean that their feelings do not exist.

As I said before. They can communicate. Through crying and body language.
Not sure on your parenting skills, but I know if my baby is happy or sad. I thought that was the same for all parents?

[Pippi Longstocking]

I found this article (http://www.circumcision.org/response.htm) interesting. It's well referenced (in case anyone wants to doubt the validity of the article :p)


PAIN RESPONSE DURING CIRCUMCISION

To help in determining the degree of pain and stress caused by circumcision, infant response was compared to that resulting from other procedures. Levels of cortisol (a hormone released into the blood in response to stress) and behavioral responses were recorded for newborns undergoing circumcision, heel-stick blood sampling, weighing and measuring, and discharge examination. Circumcision resulted in significantly higher levels of behavioral distress and blood cortisol levels than did the other procedures. Since the infant is restrained during circumcision, the response to the use of restraint was similarly tested and was not found to be measurably distressing to newborns.( 1)

Circumcision is a surgical procedure that involves forcefully separating the foreskin from the glans and then cutting it off. It is typically accomplished with a special clamp device ( see Fig. 2 ). Over a dozen studies confirm the extreme pain of circumcision. It has been described as “among the most painful [procedures] performed in neonatal medicine.”( 2) In one study, researchers concluded that the pain was “severe and persistent.”( 3) Increases in heart rate of 55 beats per minute have been recorded, about a 50 percent increase over the baseline.( 4) After circumcision, the level of blood cortisol increased by a factor of three to four times the level prior to circumcision.( 5) Investigators reported, “This level of pain would not be tolerated by older patients.”( 6)

Circumcision pain is described in this research study by Howard Stang and his colleagues from the Department of Pediatrics, Group Health Inc., and the University of Minnesota Institute of Child Development: “There is no doubt that circumcisions are painful for the baby. Indeed, circumcision has become a model for the analysis of pain and stress responses in the newborn.” They report that the infant will “cry vigorously, tremble, and in some cases become mildly cyanotic [having blueness or lividness of the skin, caused by a deficiency of oxygen] because of prolonged crying.”( 7)

According to adult listeners in one study, the infant’s response during circumcision included a cry that changed with the level of pain being experienced. The most invasive part of the procedure caused the longest crying. These cries were high pitched and were judged most urgent.( 8) A subsequent study confirmed that cries with higher pitch were perceived to be more distressing and urgent.( 9) Excessive crying can itself cause harm. In a rare case, an infant cried vehemently for about ninety minutes and ruptured his stomach.( 10) Using a pacifier during circumcision reduced crying but did not affect hormonal pain response.( 11) Therefore, while crying may be absent, other body signals demonstrate that pain is always present during circumcision...(more in link.)

[Father]

I found this article (http://www.circumcision.org/response.htm) interesting.

This article is about a circumcision using a Gomco clamp. I haven't heard of anyone in Australia who uses this method. Please let me know if you have.
The most common method now is the Plastibell, which is completely different to the method described in the article.

Any research on the Plastibell method?

[3'llhavetodo]

This brought tears to my eyes in empathy for these babies. I do not agree with this practice as a routine or religous practice!!!!! It's ******** and morally down there with female circumcision. :thumbsdown:

[~Temet Nosce~]

There has been a ton of these threads already, but no.. I will not be circ'ing my boy unless there is a medical reason to.

[Jakois]

No I have not. No I would not. No I cannot understand why people choose it.

[Pippi Longstocking]

This article is about a circumcision using a Gomco clamp. I haven't heard of anyone in Australia who uses this method. Please let me know if you have.
The most common method now is the Plastibell, which is completely different to the method described in the article.

Any research on the Plastibell method?

Nope, not that I've seen. But I do have this step by step procedure guide to circumcision using a plastibell. It certainly doesn't sound painless to me! :eek:

WARNING: Don't read the rest of my post if you're squeamish...














Procedure:
a. Grasp the rim of the prepuce with clamps at the 3 and 9 o’clock positions.
b. Separate the adherent prepuce from the glans beyond the corona, avoid the
frenulum.
c. Clamp for a few seconds and cut a dorsal midline slit to within 5mm of the
corona being careful not to injure the urethra with the instruments.
d. Expose the entire glans penis and remove any remaining adhesions.
e. Choose Plastibell large enough to easily slide over glans, (Comes in 5 sizes
from 1.0 to 1.5cm diameter).
f. Pull foreskin over bell until base of dorsal slit is beyond groove and hold in
place with cross - clamp.
g. Tie string around bell in groove. Before tightening check to insure that:
1. Foreskin is in place symmetrically over bell.
2. String is proximal to base of dorsal slit.
3. String is in bells groove and will not strangulate shaft or glans when
tightened.
h. Trim excess foreskin, snap off bell handle.






Good grief. Those poor little boys! :crying:

[Fuchsia!]

No way, its one of the most stupidest reasons i have heard to RIC.

[Fellow Traveler]

Nope, not that I've seen. But I do have this step by step procedure guide to circumcision using a plastibell. It certainly doesn't sound painless to me! :eek:

WARNING: Don't read the rest of my post if you're squeamish...

Good grief. Those poor little boys! :crying:

Here is a link to an article which describes all the techniques. Warning this is very graphic. ***copy and paste the link below into your browser to view***

coloradonocirc.org/stats/redirect.php?clicked_link=..%2Ffiles%2Fhandouts%2F Circumcision_Techniques_and_Complications.pdf&source_page=/pamphlets.php

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

I was an infant. It was fine:)

Just like a needle:) (obviously joking)

As a mother, I'm sure you can tell when your baby is in distress and uncomfortable. The fact that I did not see any signs of discomfort after the 15min procedure speaks volumes. They may not be able to talk, but there body language says alot.

You have a look at a man 15mins after the op (when they wake up). You will see signs of their discomfort and pain.

Many people report stress from their infants after the procedure.

However just because you don't recognise it as such doesn't mean they arn't in extreme pain and distress. I think it is delusional to think other wise, but what ever helps you sleep at night.

Read the following article posted by Miss Andry.

I found this article (http://www.circumcision.org/response.htm) interesting. It's well referenced (in case anyone wants to doubt the validity of the article :p)

[Father]

Read the following article posted by Miss Andry.

I have read it. All sources of info are quite old 1974-1995.
There is only a mention of the Gomco clamp method. No reference to the plastibell.
It appears to also be referring to procedures without anesthetic. Most doctors will use anesthetic during the procedure. The concept of no anesthesia circumcision is quite old.


Prior to the mid-1980s, anesthesia was not used because infant pain was denied by the medical community (see Chapter 2). That belief has changed among many physicians, but an anesthetic (local injection, the best option tested) still is not typically administered due to a lack of familiarity with its use, as well as the belief that it introduces additional risk.

Ryan & Finer, “Changing Attitudes and Practices,” 230-3.

Not sure what that reference is, but I would like to know who they are and where they came to such a conclusion. Do you really believe that that is the case?

[Looshkin]

What anesthetic?

Cream? This is not a needle.
A local anasthetic or nerve block is required, as would be used for any other surgery.

Many of the (very very few Dr's that seem to disagree with the main population of the medical community, the WHO) Dr's that still perform circumcisions will refuse to do them until a local anasthetic can be used.. there are age limits and risks of themselves to anasthetic in young children and babies, and some of them are still done without this local, because the parents want to have it done before it can be used.

This is comparable to some tribal ritual in a medicalised environment - when you remove pain relief.

You will find doctors take an oath to do no harm, and work on a risk vs benefits system.
That is why you will find over 90% of doctors will refuse this unessisary (in their opinion, ethically and medically trained) procedure.

Of course - there still exist some plastic surgeons that will take on a case of someone having their 17th breast augmentation, or so many plastic surgeries they have many health risks and even the 'emotional' health is far outwighed by the physical risks and so according to the hypocratic oath should not be performed..
Obviously those doctors are very much like the doctors, that against the reccomendation of any medical institution or professional body, decide to perform unrequired circumcisions with no medical indication.

I would hazard that they do so for the same reasons as the unethical cosmetic surgeon - entirely because no one else will and they are being paid enough to do so.

But if parents decide they know much better than the large percentage of doctors that not only disagree with the procedures merits unless and until certain medical problems arise...but many actually agree with the banning of the procedure unless aformentioned circumstances arise..

Well I think we can all agree that there is no basis on logic here.

If we knew better than the doctors - we could just peform them ourselves.

I am sure you could find a doctor that would put breast implants into a 13 year old if you paid for it.
Does that make it right, ethical, required?

I could give a plethora of (nonsense) based reasons that it would be a good idea to remove the breast tissue and put implants in instead..

The main point is - doctors who will circumcise will retire - as over 80% of men in Australia are not circumcised, I would say it is highly unlikely they would decide to perform a procedure that they would not even choose for themselves.

Circumcision will eventually be performed for the exact reasons tonsils are removed - when medically indicated.

[Father]

What anesthetic?

Cream? This is not a needle.
A local anasthetic or nerve block is required, as would be used for any other surgery.

I know cream is not a needle. Good observation.

Here is some info on EMLA for your information.
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcmed.nsf/pages/apcemlac/$File/apcemlac.pdf


EMLA is a mixture of two local
anaesthetics, lignocaine and
prilocaine.
These local anaesthetics are
combined with special agents which
allow the products to pass through
the skin. Once through the skin the
numbing effect they produce allows
minor surgical procedures to be
performed with a complete or
significant reduction in pain.

Here is a study that shows the effect of EMLA.


EMLA reduces pain response during circumcision in newborn male infants.


http://www.nichd.nih.gov/cochrane/Taddio/Taddio1.htm

[delirium]

Can we make it clear that circs for years now use a numbing cream to numb the penis, then a local is given.

I don't have an issue with those that disagree with the procedure, but I do disagree with false info. I always hear about the poor child and how much pain they are in. Yet not one of the anti circers here have admitted to having cared for a boy right after a circ. So really they have no idea.

I will say it again, our boys are given 2 forms of pain relief. My son was not in pain.

[Father]

Well said Delirium.
It's good to hear some of the 22% talking on this forum.

[Fuchsia!]

I know cream is not a needle. Good observation.

Here is some info on EMLA for your information.
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcmed.nsf/pages/apcemlac/$File/apcemlac.pdf



Here is a study that shows the effect of EMLA.




http://www.nichd.nih.gov/cochrane/Taddio/Taddio1.htm

Emla cream? :laughing::laughing:

have you actually ever tried that stuff on yourself?

I have numerous times and i can tell you it doesn't always work.

[delirium]

But the cream is not meant to stop the pain of the circ. Our GP told me it was to aid in the pain from the local. Then the local, which most would agree works completely a vast amount of the time, stops the pain of the circ.

I certainly wouldn't have agreed to the procedure without the local, and I haven't heard of any practicing dr that doesn't use it.

[Looshkin]

Well from what I had read over, I was of the understanding local was not always used, particularly because of the age local as actually able to be used, vs the age many circumcisions were performed.

And that was the reason many doctors that do still do it, although their peers and professional bodies recommend against it unless medically indicated and options exhausted, wait until over 1 year.

It's also a worry to me that it's something that is simply not taught - as most doctors and teaching professors disagree with it being done in the first place - so many are using out of date techniques or skills or have never been trained adequately for the procedure.




Howard et al. (1998) surveyed US medical doctor residency programs and directors, and found that 26% of the programs that taught the circumcision procedure "failed to provide instruction in anesthesia/analgesia for the procedure" and recommended that "residency training in neonatal circumcision should include instruction in pain relief techniques".[109] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#cite_note-108)
A 2006 follow-up study revealed that the percentage of programs that taught circumcision and also taught administration of topical or local anesthetic had increased to 97%.[110] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#cite_note-Yawman-109) However, the authors of the follow-up study also noted that only 84% of these programs used anesthetic "frequently or always" when the procedure was conducted.[110] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#cite_note-Yawman-109)

Glass, 1999, stated that Jewish ritual circumcision is so quick that "most mohelim do not routinely use any anaesthesia as they feel there is probably no need in the neonate. However, there is no Talmudic objection and should the parents wish for local anaesthetic cream to be applied there is no reason why this cannot be done." Glass also stated that for older children and adults, a penile block is used.[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#cite_note-GlassJM-31)

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#cite_note-GlassJM-31)
Lander et al. demonstrated that babies circumcised without anesthesia showed behavioral and physiological signs of pain and distress.[111] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#cite_note-110)

Comparisons of the dorsal penile nerve block and EMLA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMLA) (lidocaine/prilocaine) topical cream methods of pain control have revealed that while both are safe,[112] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#cite_note-Brady-Fryer-111)[113] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#cite_note-112) the dorsal nerve block controls pain more effectively than topical treatments,[114] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#cite_note-garry-113) but neither method eliminates pain completely.[112] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#cite_note-Brady-Fryer-111)

Razmus et al. reported that newborns circumcised with the dorsal block and the ring block in combination with the concentrated oral sucrose had the lowest pain scores.[115] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#cite_note-114)

Ng et al. found that EMLA cream, in addition to local anaesthetic, effectively reduces the sharp pain induced by needle puncture


I have been to the dentist and what should normally numb the area entirely or 1 needle has not sufficed, and I have required 3 lots of local in order to not feel the pain - so again, I would prefer to er on the side of caution and simply wait until the male is an adult and can make the decision themselves, and hence have the ability to voice any pain felt post op and have medication adjusted accordingly.

But again, I'm simply regurgitating the recommendations of the medical community on this one..
I suppose no matter what facts and information are provided there will still be people that insist that blue is not blue at all, it is in fact purple...

[Anonymous2009]

I have a girlfriend who had to have her son circumcised at age 7(i think) due to recurring infection as his foreskin wouldn't roll back.

Just wanted to add something to this point.

The foreskin and the glans are fused together at birth and separate some time until puberty, and the time by which it becomes retractable can differ a lot between boys. Forcing it back before it was ready to do so, in an attempt to clean a place that wasn't even there yet, might very well have caused tears in the skin making it prone to infections.

Foreskin infections are actually pretty rare otherwise.

[jimmysmummy]

No friggin' way. Never, ever.

[~Temet Nosce~]

I think others need to learn to be a little more tolerant of what others do, for whatever reason.

[bada]

I think others need to learn to be a little more tolerant of what others do, for whatever reason.

What if someone violates the human rights of their child? Should we still be tolerant then?

I think most ppl who argue that RIC is unnecessary aren't intolerant of parents that have chosen the procedure for the child, but are rather trying to get the right info out there to stop others from making a decision based on misinformation.

[misskittyfantastico]

I think others need to learn to be a little more tolerant of what others do, for whatever reason.

See, I DO ultimately respect that parents think that they are doing the best for their child, but man, that "doctor" who performs the surgery? I'd like to smack him. In my mind when a child is born, it is born with the right to bodily autonomy. THEY get to choose. Not the parent.

[Opinionated]

What if someone violates the human rights of their child? Should we still be tolerant then?
I think most ppl who argue that RIC is unnecessary aren't intolerant of parents that have chosen the procedure for the child, but are rather trying to get the right info out there to stop others from making a decision based on misinformation.


See, I DO ultimately respect that parents think that they are doing the best for their child, but man, that "doctor" who performs the surgery? I'd like to smack him. In my mind when a child is born, it is born with the right to bodily autonomy. THEY get to choose. Not the parent.

:iagree:You both summed up my feelings perfectly.

[~Temet Nosce~]

Yes and I agree, hence why I won't be circ'ing my son, but using the pain and fear factor in the debate, saying how could a parent put them through such pain etc. isn't really fair, since it's done with anesthetics etc. they really wouldn't be feeling much pain at all.

but are rather trying to get the right info out there to stop others from making a decision based on misinformation.
Then using the pain factor in the debate would be misinformation too.

[misskittyfantastico]

Yes and I agree, hence why I won't be circ'ing my son, but using the pain and fear factor in the debate, saying how could a parent put them through such pain etc. isn't really fair, since it's done with anesthetics etc. they really wouldn't be feeling much pain at all.

Then using the pain factor in the debate would be misinformation too.

How do you know it doesn't hurt? Even if the procedure itself is done under anesthesia, what about recovery? I've been numbed up for dental surgery and stuff and the after effects? y'ouch!

[Looshkin]

If you are referring to my post on pain Amethyst - I was providing information, which clearly states that adequate pain relief is not always used - and realistically statistics on admitted *non use* of pain relief is more accurate than anecdotal evidence that 2 types of pain relief was used *is* misleading considering people still actually use the argument that infants do not feel pain you will see that constantly come up in these sort of things over and over.

Unless you meant the mis-information from fathers posts on emla being used, and how effective it is.. when realistically a numbing cream won't stop the pain of anything going beyond the first 3 layers of skin.....at all.. what so ever..
The pain, paired with the risk of further damage and even death is *the reason* a *massive* percentage of doctors abhor the practice, and slam it as being un ethical, unnecessary... again relevant..

And it was brought up as a riposte to fathers point on the matter...so again, relevant to his firm refusal of the truth and any basis of logic.

[~Temet Nosce~]

But how do you know that it does?
I'm just trying to look at this from both sides I guess.

[misskittyfantastico]

But how do you know that it does?
I'm just trying to look at this from both sides I guess.

Well, after having my teeth out, vagina stiched, a giganto wart removed (from my hand) all with numbingness, I'm led to conclude that even if the procedure is done under anaesthetic (and I thought that could only be given to children 12 months plus) recovery still hurts!

[Looshkin]

Because in all animals levels of Cortisol and heart rate is a measure of pain.

If you read the info posted by I think Misandry and tabularasa.. andrew I think?
It has some informative information of pain reactions.. in fact they think the pain levels are three times higher than an adult could actually tolerate without pain relief.. again which is why so many doctors refuse to do it, and label it to a human rights issue.

As a vet student, I remember doing a study on cortisol /heart rate levels in sheep and cows during castration with different types of anasthetics and different methods of castration.. that was also interesting..

But I think the stuff showing that kids who have been circed have a much bigger response to vax or needle pain later on - has to be a sign of something.
I think an incredibly young person working out the pathways to use to show response to pain, to pleasure are not yet fully functional for a long time.. it would be a silent scream of pain I would suggest..
If it wasn't - surely we would just perform other surgeries without a general anesthetic.
Yet we don't - and as I said, in some cases local isn't used because the parents want the circ done before the age that local is advised.

[~Temet Nosce~]

Off topic a bit- but I remember having to help mum hold the back end of calves as she was putting on the rubber ring things they use to circ bulls sometimes, the ones that just cut the circulation off and it basically just drops off- ouch :eek:

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

Because in all animals levels of Cortisol and heart rate is a measure of pain.

If you read the info posted by I think Misandry and tabularasa.. andrew I think?
It has some informative information of pain reactions.. in fact they think the pain levels are three times higher than an adult could actually tolerate without pain relief.. again which is why so many doctors refuse to do it, and label it to a human rights issue.

As a vet student, I remember doing a study on cortisol /heart rate levels in sheep and cows during castration with different types of anasthetics and different methods of castration.. that was also interesting..

But I think the stuff showing that kids who have been circed have a much bigger response to vax or needle pain later on - has to be a sign of something.
I think an incredibly young person working out the pathways to use to show response to pain, to pleasure are not yet fully functional for a long time.. it would be a silent scream of pain I would suggest..
If it wasn't - surely we would just perform other surgeries without a general anesthetic.
Yet we don't - and as I said, in some cases local isn't used because the parents want the circ done before the age that local is advised.

You iz right and clever.:yes:

[Looshkin]

Off topic a bit- but I remember having to help mum hold the back end of calves as she was putting on the rubber ring things they use to circ bulls sometimes, the ones that just cut the circulation off and it basically just drops off- ouch :eek:


Do you mean castrate them?
:confused:

[~Temet Nosce~]

:doh::laughing: yeah that's what I meant (blame it on the preggo brain)
but thats even worse, than taking off the foreskin if you ask me.. farr out.

[Opinionated]

Yes and I agree, hence why I won't be circ'ing my son, but using the pain and fear factor in the debate, saying how could a parent put them through such pain etc. isn't really fair, since it's done with anesthetics etc. they really wouldn't be feeling much pain at all.

Every procedure I have had done with an anesthetic hurts once the anesthetic wore off. My vagina had 2 stitches in it and every time I peed, tears rolled down my face. I imagine peeing on a circ wound would feel much the same. It took more than a week for me to feel better, anesthetics are not used for that long.

[Looshkin]

:laughing:
I was hoping you meant that..
I was thinking, geez, I don't think the bulls dad cares about his son looking like him.. or any bull owner out there is doing some weird and creepy things..

But yeah, bleugh I hated doing it - that's the study I was talking about - with sheep and cattle, testing saliva and heart rate on different methods, and different anesthetics etc.

I can assure you the bulls and sheep felt that band snapping on and the knife going in in other ways, which is totally comparable to circing really.:eek::(

But then people eat and kill cattle, people don't eat and kill people..

I guess animal rights activists will argue castration is wrong, and I agree without anesthetic, but I also reckon when we live in a world where parents can be so misguided that they allow their own offspring to be done without anesthetic.. well I think it's more important that gets sorted out first.

Although both important issues that with more awareness and understanding will be made better for everyone.:p

[misskittyfantastico]

:laughing:
I was hoping you meant that..
I was thinking, geez, I don't think the bulls dad cares about his son looking like him.. or any bull owner out there is doing some weird and creepy things..

But yeah, bleugh I hated doing it - that's the study I was talking about - with sheep and cattle, testing saliva and heart rate on different methods, and different anesthetics etc.

I can assure you the bulls and sheep felt that band snapping on and the knife going in in other ways, which is totally comparable to circing really.:eek::(

But then people eat and kill cattle, people don't eat and kill people..

I guess animal rights activists will argue castration is wrong, and I agree without anesthetic, but I also reckon when we live in a world where parents can be so misguided that they allow their own offspring to be done without anesthetic.. well I think it's more important that gets sorted out first.

Although both important issues that with more awareness and understanding will be made better for everyone.:p

We have sheep, a few thousand and they get rings on their testicles, and mulsed - but even mulsing (thankfully ) will be gonski by 2010.

[~Temet Nosce~]

:laughing: yeah I feel like a right d!ck now, excuse the pun :laughing:

[Fuchsia!]

Yes and I agree, hence why I won't be circ'ing my son, but using the pain and fear factor in the debate, saying how could a parent put them through such pain etc. isn't really fair, since it's done with anesthetics etc. they really wouldn't be feeling much pain at all.

Then using the pain factor in the debate would be misinformation too.


But how do you know that it does?
I'm just trying to look at this from both sides I guess.

pretty sure if you had skin removed from your vagina and you had faeces and urine constantly going on it, you would be in a lot of discomfort and pain

[~Temet Nosce~]

Just to clear it up, I was talking about the procedure itself, not the recovery afterwards. I'm pretty well aware that it wouldn't be a pleasant ordeal afterwards.

[delirium]

How do you know it doesn't hurt? Even if the procedure itself is done under anesthesia, what about recovery? I've been numbed up for dental surgery and stuff and the after effects? y'ouch!

I know when my son was and is in pain. As a bub he had reflux and he screamed and screamed 12 hours a day in pain. Without a doubt he let me know he was in pain. Newborns aren't inanimate objects, they respond to pain like anyone else would, they SHOW that pain thru screwing up their face and crying.

As for the local wearing off, yes it does. But that's when you use panadol and that's all he needed. I have said here before, that the morning after his circ, I was changing DS's nappy and he actually did a wee as I was changing him. He showed no pain in his face, nor did he cry. Now I think it's a stretch that a 6 week old baby did feel pain but didn't show it in any way.

Look, I'm not looking to be argumentative. All I want if for people to get the facts. Members here are more than happy to link to sites to educate others (using anti circ sites that have outdated info but anyhoo...). I'm simply trying to tell people that for my son, he didn't show pain.

[Fellow Traveler]

Yes and I agree, hence why I won't be circ'ing my son, but using the pain and fear factor in the debate, saying how could a parent put them through such pain etc. isn't really fair, since it's done with anesthetics etc. they really wouldn't be feeling much pain at all.

Then using the pain factor in the debate would be misinformation too.

I would agree with this in part. The problem with using the pain factor in a debate like this is that it's not a relevant consideration. If circumcision was necessary for the child's well-being then yes you want to perform it as pain free as possible. Since circumcision is not necessary, how painful it is doesn't change the fact that it is unethical to perform it.

I could remove a child's earlobes in a pain free way with a local anesthetic and just because he didn't feel it doesn't mean it's right. So really the pain issue is a bit of a distraction.

[Hollywood]

Interesting to see that a whopping 75% of people don't/wouldn't choose circumcision :thumbsup:

[bada]

I would agree with this in part. The problem with using the pain factor in a debate like this is that it's not a relevant consideration. If circumcision was necessary for the child's well-being then yes you want to perform it as pain free as possible. Since circumcision is not necessary, how painful it is doesn't change the fact that it is unethical to perform it.

I could remove a child's earlobes in a pain free way with a local anesthetic and just because he didn't feel it doesn't mean it's right. So really the pain issue is a bit of a distraction. :iagree:
With all the reasons not to circumcise I believe the pain factor becomes rather redundant. If a person researching circumcision can't understand that RIC is unnecessary, then I doubt that the pain factor is going to sway them.

I also don't know much about the pain factor, other than the blatantly obvious, ie if you weren't the one who had their genitals operated on it would be impossible to know for sure whether it hurt or not.

[mumto2LLboys]

Well, we had our DS done at 17 months. Emla cream used, with a local then given. He had the plastibell method used, and did not suffer any pain during the procedure. I was with him and he was fine.

He had to be circ'd due to a very rare condition of the foreskin being extremely tight and causing our son enormous pain when weeing. We tried loads and loads of methods ie creams, antibiotics etc etc, but he was in pain in most times when weeing. He suffered very very regular bouts of infections that were the cause of his pain. I think I exhausted everything possible before making the decision. Also I was pro circ before we had it done and so was hubby, we just decided that in today's world, it wasn't necessary so we didn't worry about it - BUT didn't think parents who chose to circ were bad etc.

He is now 3.5 years, we haven't had an issue to date and everything is fine. After the procedure he had no infections, pain or discomfort.

We now have a 3mth old and he will be getting done in 3 weeks time without hesitation.

It is a personal choice and those that do circ should not be frowned upon. I'm sure every one of you out there that are against it raise/care for your child that someone else wouldn't agree with. I don't think I'm abusing my child by having this done.

I'd also like to point out that the Dr who performed this procedure gave us both for and against literature and also referred us to websites for more information. Our decision was well informed.

[Lillynix]

Hell no. Our son is not circumscised.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

We now have a 3mth old and he will be getting done in 3 weeks time without hesitation.

It is a personal choice and those that do circ should not be frowned upon. I'm sure every one of you out there that are against it raise/care for your child that someone else wouldn't agree with. I don't think I'm abusing my child by having this done.

I'd also like to point out that the Dr who performed this procedure gave us both for and against literature and also referred us to websites for more information. Our decision was well informed.
For medical reasons I can understand.:hugs:

However, I cannot understand getting your youngest son done?:confused: I would liken it to getting my sons tonsils out just in case, because my daughter had to have hers out.

[Milliner]

Glad to see these polls are still going.

Hell no! I would I ever harm my child in that way. I'm appalled that RIC is still legal.

[mumto2LLboys]

Re the question why I would be getting my 3mth done when we've had no problems ......

Our decision is based on the facts of hygiene. I think that yes we would teach our son to clean him self appropriately, but I cannot see my son when he is 9 years old cleaning himself properly to ensure no infections occur. I think that as parents you can teach them so much and show them, but in the end, boys will usually be boys and will probably (*lots of assumption here!!) not remember the importance of keeping this clean until the time comes when they have an infection (this might be a positive for them to ensure the future cleaning is done well!!!).

I also know (from my single days!), that men usually "roll over" and go to sleep after sex and will not get up to clean themselves. This is also a huge risk factor in contracting STD's and the like and also infections. I'm not saying this is not all men who do this ;) but I would think that most do "roll over" and sleep!!

So this is why we have chosen to get our 3mth old done.

Also, just wanted to say thank you to you for not criticizing our decision and instead asking a question - it makes for a nice thread to read and makes me feel like I can actual have my opinion/say without being abused.:thumbsup:

[Opinionated]

So this is why we have chosen to get our 3mth old done..

Your decision and I won't criticise you. Your reasoning however, is based on common myths. I hope you teach your children to wear condoms rather than have unprotected sex with random women. Having unprotected sex is a much bigger risk for catching an STI than having a foreskin.

[andrewJ]

I'm appalled that RIC is still legal.

im not that sure that it is. it needs a test case.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

Re the question why I would be getting my 3mth done when we've had no problems ......

Our decision is based on the facts of hygiene. I think that yes we would teach our son to clean him self appropriately, but I cannot see my son when he is 9 years old cleaning himself properly to ensure no infections occur. I think that as parents you can teach them so much and show them, but in the end, boys will usually be boys and will probably (*lots of assumption here!!) not remember the importance of keeping this clean until the time comes when they have an infection (this might be a positive for them to ensure the future cleaning is done well!!!).

I also know (from my single days!), that men usually "roll over" and go to sleep after sex and will not get up to clean themselves. This is also a huge risk factor in contracting STD's and the like and also infections. I'm not saying this is not all men who do this ;) but I would think that most do "roll over" and sleep!!

So this is why we have chosen to get our 3mth old done.

Also, just wanted to say thank you to you for not criticizing our decision and instead asking a question - it makes for a nice thread to read and makes me feel like I can actual have my opinion/say without being abused.:thumbsup:

Just thought I'd let you know that the Aids council of Australia recomends against RIC and says it does protect against HIV. The only protection is no sex, other then that a condom.

Oh and men who are circ'd still have to wash it.;) A dirty penis is a dirty penis.

[temple]

I voted no, I have not and would not get it done.

My DP was circ-ed as a child (5 i think) because of recurrent infections, and that is WHY he agrees - he remembers what it was like, and would rather not put our son through that unless it was really necessary.

[GothChick]

Im against mums circ'ing their sons before they are at an age were they understand what's happening and can have an opinion on what is being done to their bodies. I feel the same about ear piercing.

If I have a boy and he wants it done when he is say 7 and older, we will discuss it and if I feel he has fully thought about it and knows all the facts, I will allow him to have it done.

I would prefer him not to though.

[share a book]

No, I would not agree to unnecessary surgical procedures for any child of mine.

[mmy2b]

Can't answer poll on my phone, but nope, never. I have three boys and it never crossed mine or df's mind...

I guess i would have to if medically necessary later? But as pp posts suggested, only if it was the last option, even then I'd get a second and third opinion

[lambjam]

Only if medically necessary. Same goes for tonsils and appendixes.

[Kimberleygal1]

Yes I'm pro circumcision. It was an issue dh and I discussed and agreed on well before we decided to have children for many reasons and both our boys are circumcised.

Just some of the benefits of circumcision that have come from some studies;
- lots of men and their partners prefer the appearance of a circumcised penis, it's odor free, feels cleaner and sex is more enjoyable
- health experts say circumcised males are less likely to be diagnosed with prostate cancer later in life
- cancer of the cervix is due to the papilloma virus, it thrives on and under the foreskin where it can be transmitted during intercourse, cancer can be reduced by 20% if more men were circumcised.
- circumcised men are 8 times less likely to contract HIV and sexually transmitted diseases.
- UT infections are common and 10times less likely if circumcised

And a quarter of the population of males are circumcised so the procedure is more common than people may think.

[elleseetee]

As soon as we had our DS I couldn't understand how anyone couldn't think he was absolutely perfect just the way he was.
We did not get him circ'd even though DH is. DH has since expressed his resentment for being circ'd himself.
Every "pro" we thought of seemed ridiculous when compared to the cons.

[just her chameleon]

On my phone so can't see polls, but my answer is NO.

[share a book]

The topic came up with my nephew before we knew what they were having, because someone from their ante natal class asked about it. It was a large gathering and every person there was stunned that any medical procedure could be done without any medical reason. Then it was decided that "trailer park" families probably do it because they bath in the communal pool. Probably way off, but that came from mainly school teachers and other school staff in our community.

[Kimberleygal1]

Re the question why I would be getting my 3mth done when we've had no problems ......

Our decision is based on the facts of hygiene. I think that yes we would teach our son to clean him self appropriately, but I cannot see my son when he is 9 years old cleaning himself properly to ensure no infections occur. I think that as parents you can teach them so much and show them, but in the end, boys will usually be boys and will probably (*lots of assumption here!!) not remember the importance of keeping this clean until the time comes when they have an infection (this might be a positive for them to ensure the future cleaning is done well!!!).

I also know (from my single days!), that men usually "roll over" and go to sleep after sex and will not get up to clean themselves. This is also a huge risk factor in contracting STD's and the like and also infections. I'm not saying this is not all men who do this ;) but I would think that most do "roll over" and sleep!!

So this is why we have chosen to get our 3mth old done.

Also, just wanted to say thank you to you for not criticizing our decision and instead asking a question - it makes for a nice thread to read and makes me feel like I can actual have my opinion/say without being abused.:thumbsup:

You know what bub hub is like, you will always get criticized because someone has a different opinion to you.

I'm with you 100% and totally agree :highfive:

[nicoletta]

Even if my child was having foreskin issues, I would exhaust all other treatments (eg, steroid creams, antibiotics) before considering its removal. In a child with no foreskin issues, I find it's removal for the parents choice abhorrent.


:iagree::iagree:

[GluttonForPunishment]

As a dad of two daughters, it hasn't come up in the past. BUT, if I was to have a son in the future I would not get it done. I'm au naturale myself and I like it that way. As a kid, I was taught to wash it properly. I did - no problems.

Alright, I'm running away again. I normally avoid circ threads like the plague!

[Tainted]

Nope. I have no respect for parents who do this to their sons. I think it is vile and don't understand how these parents can sleep at night. I don't care if this offends, honestly.. these people make me sick!

[Alexander Beetle]

Ah, is it circ debate time of the year already?
Why do I read these threads? Everytime I hear a mother say they circed their son for looks or future pleasure, it makes me feel most uncomfortable. Maybe it's a small town thing? I don't know anyone in the city who still circs, thank god (other than religious reasons, which I'm staying well away from). Maybe men in the city know how to keep their p3nises clean?

[kezty]

If you had of asked me 5yrs ago I would have said 'hell yeah!'
BUT after meeting my now DH who is not circumcised, I honestly wouldn't do it now.

I used to think, as many many women do, that if a man was uncircumcised, he would immediately be dirty etc.
But now being with a man that is not, I have a very different opinion.

My DH is meticulous about his hygiene 'down there'. He has a routine that he does eveytime he showers, which was taught to him by his dad, and if the the bub that is on the way now is a boy, DH will teach him what to do as well.
Honestly I think he is cleaner than any man without a foreskin lol.
I think it's all about education.

But as pp have said, each to there own.

[GluttonForPunishment]

Ah, is it circ debate time of the year already?
Why do I read these threads? Everytime I hear a mother say they circed their son for looks or future pleasure, it makes me feel most uncomfortable. Maybe it's a small town thing? I don't know anyone in the city who still circs, thank god (other than religious reasons, which I'm staying well away from). Maybe men in the city know how to keep their p3nises clean?

When we run out of other things to fight about, we can always rely on good 'ol circ threads to beat the cr@p outta each other.

Lol

[BlissedOut]

And a quarter of the population of males are circumcised so the procedure is more common than people may think.

I think looking at the statistics of newborns being circumsized would be a better indication.

http://www.circumstitions.com/FGMvsMGM.html

Are you okay with female circumcision too? Many of the reasons you've given apply to that too.

[nicoletta]

Yes I'm pro circumcision. It was an issue dh and I discussed and agreed on well before we decided to have children for many reasons and both our boys are circumcised.

Just some of the benefits of circumcision that have come from some studies;
- lots of men and their partners prefer the appearance of a circumcised penis, it's odor free, feels cleaner and sex is more enjoyable
- health experts say circumcised males are less likely to be diagnosed with prostate cancer later in life
- cancer of the cervix is due to the papilloma virus, it thrives on and under the foreskin where it can be transmitted during intercourse, cancer can be reduced by 20% if more men were circumcised.
- circumcised men are 8 times less likely to contract HIV and sexually transmitted diseases.
- UT infections are common and 10times less likely if circumcised

And a quarter of the population of males are circumcised so the procedure is more common than people may think.

You'd really amputate a part of your child for the future viewing pleasure of his partner? I highly doubt he will be saddened by the appearance of his own p3nis, I don't know a single man who cares about anything other than size.
And as for being 'odour free', I certainly hope you'd teach your child good enough hygiene to be odour free either way. What perplexes me most about all you've said is the part about s3xual pleasure. There are 20000–70000 nerve endings in a foreskin. How is cutting that off going to increase his s3xual satisfaction? :confused::confused:
As for the rest, I'm pretty sure that all of those things have been disproven in recent years, and there is not one single health organisation in the world that recommends RIC.

[misskittyfantastico]

Ah, is it circ debate time of the year already?
Why do I read these threads? Everytime I hear a mother say they circed their son for looks or future pleasure, it makes me feel most uncomfortable. Maybe it's a small town thing? I don't know anyone in the city who still circs, thank god (other than religious reasons, which I'm staying well away from). Maybe men in the city know how to keep their p3nises clean?

It's definitely more popular in the sticks. My boys who are intact are in the minority in my small town. I'm fairly certain though that they'll manage giving their tackle a good cleaning - they be smart, my little yokels...just like their daddy ;)

[Kimberleygal1]

Ah, is it circ debate time of the year already?
Why do I read these threads? Everytime I hear a mother say they circed their son for looks or future pleasure, it makes me feel most uncomfortable. Maybe it's a small town thing? I don't know anyone in the city who still circs, thank god (other than religious reasons, which I'm staying well away from). Maybe men in the city know how to keep their p3nises clean?

Why would you suggest it's different between city and country? Nothing has been said to suggest it's more prevelant at one place or the other and to suggest men in the city may be cleaner is quite rude and uncalled for really.

[KillerHeels]

We were told at the hospital by doctors that it is completely unnecessary and less then 10% of boys are now circumcised. Why you would put your child through that for no reason is beyond me.

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[Theboys&me]

Nope neither of mine are ... I think I would have until I saw my friends boy after having it done and it made me feel ill. I couldn't do it.

I figure if they want it done for sexual pleasure ... They'll get the op themselves later.

Just as I'd get any op I felt necessary for myself.

[OJandMe]

I have friends with circed sons and friends with uncirced sons....

and you know what, they all absolutely adore their children....

so for anyone to say that people who do or don't circ are "sick" and they have absolutely no respect for them, or that they're unclean and setting their kids up for HIV...

seriously?

I bet there are plenty of heavily abused children that are both uncirced and circed....

ETA: probably more who are uncirced, because to be circed actually requires a parent to organise, attend, pay and care for the procedure.... and I can't see that the majority of abusive parent would really give a damn about any of that...

[Witwicky]

I can't believe there are people in this thread who are making decisions on behalf of their sons regarding their future sexual activities...vomit! :barf:

[Newmum2012]

You'd really amputate a part of your child for the future viewing pleasure of his partner? I highly doubt he will be saddened by the appearance of his own p3nis, I don't know a single man who cares about anything other than size.
And as for being 'odour free', I certainly hope you'd teach your child good enough hygiene to be odour free either way. What perplexes me most about all you've said is the part about s3xual pleasure. There are 20000–70000 nerve endings in a foreskin. How is cutting that off going to increase his s3xual satisfaction? :confused::confused:
As for the rest, I'm pretty sure that all of those things have been disproven in recent years, and there is not one single health organisation in the world that recommends RIC.

I could not agree more, reasons such as cleanliness, pleasure, looks, disease reduction etc are simply not true in today's society and have been proven wrong over the last few decades

[JohnC]

Why would you suggest it's different between city and country?

Th best prevalence data we have says circ is significantly more common in regional (but not rural) Australia compared with the capital cities.

Richters J, Smith AMA, de Visser RO, et al. Circumcision in Australia: prevalence and effects on sexual health. Int J STD AIDS 2006;17:547–54.

[JessaKye]

I'd of absolutely had my son circumcised if given the choice- he has a hypospadias so once this is fixed he will appear circumcised anyway.
As a child I remember my brother with many horrible infections and would rather my son not deal with that. I'm sure my brother would have been scarred far less by having his foreskin removed as an infant rather than the pain he suffered and poking and prodding he endured.
Not to mention DF, male cousins, uncles and grandfathers are circumcised so it would avoid some questions.

[OurLittleBlessing]

No. Freaking. Way.

(unless medically necessary of course!)

[OurLittleBlessing]

Oh, and not long ago I had my appendix out. It had been undiagnosed for about a decade as far as we can tell, and it has caused some longish term health problems for me.

I'm not about to have my daughters' appendix taken out in case the same thing happens to them.

[Nemmi]

No,
Never unless medically required.

Its his penis and his decision

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[GothChick]

I have friends with circed sons and friends with uncirced sons....

and you know what, they all absolutely adore their children....

so for anyone to say that people who do or don't circ are "sick" and they have absolutely no respect for them, or that they're unclean and setting their kids up for HIV...

seriously?

I bet there are plenty of heavily abused children that are both uncirced and circed....

ETA: probably more who are uncirced, because to be circed actually requires a parent to organise, attend, pay and care for the procedure.... and I can't see that the majority of abusive parent would really give a damn about any of that...
I get that they love their sons just as much as we do, and Im not sure I would call it abuse, but I do think the people who do it are very misguided.

[PurpleButterfly4]

No my son isn't done & I won't for any other son I may have in the future. I would only go it if absolutely necessary for medical reasons.
I just think if males weren't meant to be born with a foreskin well they wouldn't if. Why "fix" something that isn't broken....

[Nemmi]

- lots of men and their partners prefer the appearance of a circumcised penis, it's odor free, feels cleaner and sex is more enjoyable

Ive met circ'd men with smelly penises, a penis can smell either way if the man isn't hygiene

- health experts say circumcised males are less likely to be diagnosed with prostate cancer later in life

This I haven't heard?

- cancer of the cervix is due to the papilloma virus, it thrives on and under the foreskin where it can be transmitted during intercourse, cancer can be reduced by 20% if more men were circumcised.

Hpv can also be passed on from mother to infant during delivery and cervical cancer can also have genetic factors

- circumcised men are 8 times less likely to contract HIV and sexually transmitted diseases.

Myth. Not true at all.

- UT infections are common and 10times less likely if circumcised

Not heard this either?
Girls carry a higher uti risk than un circ'd men,
We treat a girls uti with antibiotics not removal

And a quarter of the population of males are circumcised so the procedure is more common than people may think.

But stats indicate that ric is lowering, 20 or so years time that will be alot lower


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[Stiflers Mom]

It's not mine to decide.

[jessesgirl]

I have friends with circed sons and friends with uncirced sons....

and you know what, they all absolutely adore their children....

so for anyone to say that people who do or don't circ are "sick" and they have absolutely no respect for them, or that they're unclean and setting their kids up for HIV...

seriously?

I bet there are plenty of heavily abused children that are both uncirced and circed....

ETA: probably more who are uncirced, because to be circed actually requires a parent to organise, attend, pay and care for the procedure.... and I can't see that the majority of abusive parent would really give a damn about any of that...

Totally agree!!

[Alexander Beetle]

Why would you suggest it's different between city and country? Nothing has been said to suggest it's more prevelant at one place or the other and to suggest men in the city may be cleaner is quite rude and uncalled for really.

Because statistics have proved that it IS done more in the country than the city.
Ironic that you think it's rude I've suggested some men are cleaner than others. Isn't that what you've done with your 'facts' about hygiene and uncirced men. Oh, the irony is delicious :D

[jessesgirl]

When and if the time comes I'll def get our boy circumcised.. Dh is and I think it would be odd when they are in the shower and he doesn't feel the same as his dad..

Personally I think it's cleaner..

Of course my opinion!

[Alexander Beetle]

When and if the time comes I'll def get our boy circumcised.. Dh is and I think it would be odd when they are in the shower and he doesn't feel the same as his dad..

Personally I think it's cleaner..

Of course my opinion!

That is opinion, because it's not cleaner. Just like anything, if you wash it, it's clean.

[OurLittleBlessing]

Genuine question as I often hear comments about this in relation to circ: do boys really compare their pen!s to their Dad?? Aren't they all different anyway?

I certainly have never compared vag!nas with my Mum :p

[BlissedOut]

I should get my daughter breast implants so she can look like me when we're naked together, WDYT?

[OurLittleBlessing]

snap BlissedOut

[share a book]

I should get my daughter breast implants so she can look like me when we're naked together, WDYT?

Sounds good. Can you get wigs for the lower area too? They must look alike, you know.

[lambjam]

Genuine question as I often hear comments about this in relation to circ: do boys really compare their pen!s to their Dad?? Aren't they all different anyway?

I certainly have never compared vag!nas with my Mum :p

:laughing:

I think boys are far more likely to compare penises with their peers, and the vast majority of their peers will be uncircumcised ;)

[Stiflers Mom]

Sounds good. Can you get wigs for the lower area too? They must look alike, you know.


You'll be wanting a merkin then...

[Eko]

Didn't, wouldn't. If he wants to when he's older, that's fine. It's his choice. But I'm not going to make the choice to cut parts of my son's body off for him because he may not want it gone iykwim?
If he gets older and wants to do it for religious reasons or whatever, more power to him. I just didn't want to make such a physically altering decision for him :).

[Blobby2]

And boys compare themselves to others at urinals?

I am so not entering this debate but just curious about this question. :) my hubs says he never did.

[GothChick]

And boys compare themselves to others at urinals?

I am so not entering this debate but just curious about this question. :) my hubs says he never did.
DH says he never did either but he went to an all boys school and said there was a LOT of that going on in the showers! They were all pretty open about looking and comparing.

[Lovemyfam]

Why do pro circ people not push to have it legal to do girls? The clitoral hood is pretty much just female foreskin it protects the clitoal glans. There is a study that says cutting of girls can reduce HIV too some women experience pain during sex in the area it can become seperatwd and painful so would it be better to just remove it when babies?

[jessesgirl]

:laughing:

I think boys are far more likely to compare penises with their peers, and the vast majority of their peers will be uncircumcised ;)

Exactly!

[Alexander Beetle]

Exactly!

Um LambJam was using that as an example for NOT circing. You said you are circing, so why are you agreeing with that point?

[Witwicky]

Um LambJam was using that as an example for NOT circing. You said you are circing, so why are you agreeing with that point?

:laughing: Yeah I was just coming in to say this...:confused:

[maplefern]

I think if we have a boy we would like to him to be circumcised. So pro circumcision....

[jessesgirl]

Um LambJam was using that as an example for NOT circing. You said you are circing, so why are you agreeing with that point?

Wow! apologies!

[jessesgirl]

I think if we have a boy we would like to him to be circumcised. So pro circumcision....

Careful! You might be ridiculed for stating your opinion

[BlissedOut]

Careful! You might be ridiculed for stating your opinion

No, they're pointing out that you agreed that kids would be more likely to compare their penis with their peers (most of whom won't be circ'd) right after you said you wanted him to match his dad.

[Alexander Beetle]

Careful! You might be ridiculed for stating your opinion

See, saying you want to circ is an opinion. Saying you want to circ based on incorrect facts is when people have a problem. By all means cut into your son's genitals, but at least be informed when you do it.

[lambjam]

Those of you who say you would do it to increase your son's sexual stimulation... I assume you would therefore think it acceptable to pierce a baby girl's clitoris for the same reason? Same logic :yes:

[Jakois]

When and if the time comes I'll def get our boy circumcised.. Dh is and I think it would be odd when they are in the shower and he doesn't feel the same as his dad..

Personally I think it's cleaner..

Of course my opinion!

Altering your baby sons genitals to "Look like Daddy" is the one thing in these arguments that makes my stomach churn.

Are you going to transplant pubic hair to complete the "look"?

I'm sorry for being so blunt, but seriously, do you really think its a good enough reason to cut your baby's pen!s? Why not wait until he is older, than he can decide for himself?

[Lovemyfam]

Those of you who say you would do it to increase your son's sexual stimulation... I assume you would therefore think it acceptable to pierce a baby girl's clitoris for the same reason? Same logic :yes:

That's not really a valid argument since circ was used to decrease feeling and pleasure to curve masterbation I know you know that but just wanted to say it again

[hopefully2]

I do wonder why people feel they need to force their opinions on others. I think your energy could be far better spent. We will most certainly be circumcising our son. I will not be bullied against it. Call us whatever u like...go away and concentrate your energy on being the best parent you can be.

[BlissedOut]

I do wonder why people feel they need to force their opinions on others. I think your energy could be far better spent. We will most certainly be circumcising our son. I will not be bullied against it. Call us whatever u like...go away and concentrate your energy on being the best parent you can be.

Apply that same logic to female circumcision, do you feel the same?

[GothChick]

I always found the 'doing it to look like daddy' reason very odd.....I wouldnt feel the need to slice the bottom of DD's abdomen open so she ended up with a c section scar like mine. If I had my clitoris pierced I wouldnt get DDs done so she 'looked like mummy'. You think its a crazy comparison? I think circing to look like daddy rather than just saying 'daddy is circumcised and you are not which is why his penis looks slightly different' is crazy.

I mean seriously, how hard is it to explain to a kid that not everyone has identical bits?

[maplefern]

I'm sorry but some of these against comments are ridiculous! Comparing to piercing a girls parts or suggesting that your son gets hair down there, come on!!!! I think everyone should have respect for peoples choices even though you feel strongly about the subject.....

[misskittyfantastico]

I'm sorry but some of these against comments are ridiculous! Comparing to piercing a girls parts or suggesting that your son gets hair down there, come on!!!! I think everyone should have respect for peoples choices even though you feel strongly about the subject.....

I think people should respect that the choice should lie with the owner of the penis.

I don't think parents who circ are bad people. I have friends and family who I love dearly, and who I believe are incredible, loving parents that chose RIC for their sons.

I strongly feel though, that parents shouldn't have the right to permanently modify their childrens bodies without that childs permission.

[Witwicky]

I'm sorry but some of these against comments are ridiculous! Comparing to piercing a girls parts or suggesting that your son gets hair down there, come on!!!! I think everyone should have respect for peoples choices even though you feel strongly about the subject.....

What is ridiculous is people who have their sons circumcised to look like their father. By drawing comparisons like this, it makes it easier to show the lack of logic behind this reasoning.

[hopefully2]

Apply that same logic to female circumcision, do you feel the same?

If we were comparing apples with apples I would feel the same. One is done out of cruelty and oppression and if you put both in the same basket then you are being fundamentalist and over reactive.

[lambjam]

I'm sorry but some of these against comments are ridiculous!

Yes they are, aren't they?! Yet they use exactly the same logic used to defend RIC.

That's kind've the point ;)

[misskittyfantastico]

If we were comparing apples with apples I would feel the same. One is done out of cruelty and oppression and if you put both in the same basket then you are being fundamentalist and over reactive.

Women who choose this for their daughters are doing it out of love. They believe it's cleaner, that it will protect them from disease, that it will make them suitable for marriage....

[hopefully2]

I think people should respect that the choice should lie with the owner of the penis.

I don't think parents who circ are bad people. I have friends and family who I love dearly, and who I believe are incredible, loving parents that chose RIC for their sons.

I strongly feel though, that parents shouldn't have the right to permanently modify their childrens bodies without that childs permission.

My husband thinks that argument is a joke. He thanks his parents for evoking their right to duty of care and making the decision to have his willy snipped. P.s he has no loss of sensation, no infection and has no hang up over his gorgeous looking male hood!

[share a book]

If we were comparing apples with apples I would feel the same. One is done out of cruelty and oppression and if you put both in the same basket then you are being fundamentalist and over reactive.

We are comparing the unnecessary surgical removal of a boy's body part to the unnecssary surgical removal of a girl's body part.

[BlissedOut]

Women who choose this for their daughters are doing it out of love. They believe it's cleaner, that it will protect them from disease, that it will make them suitable for marriage....

Exactly. So they are apples and apples, as this page below shows.

http://www.circumstitions.com/FGMvsMGM.html

[hopefully2]

Seriously if that is what you believe good luck to you. I am not risking my blood pressure to get in a heated argument over something that we will never agree on. Do and feel as you do. Just leave others alone.

[BlissedOut]

My husband thinks that argument is a joke. He thanks his parents for evoking their right to duty of care and making the decision to have his willy snipped. P.s he has no loss of sensation, no infection and has no hang up over his gorgeous looking male hood!

How does he know he has no loss of sensation, was it done as an adult?

[JaneDoe]

I will agree that the prevalence that in regional areas it is MUCH higher!

Out of all the people I know with boys in our regional town only TWO AREN'T done! Nearly every single boy in our area is done!!

So change rooms at footy or school will be normal to be done around here!!

Just FTR they don't actually CUT the foreskin off at all, it's a procedure very similar to the clamping of the umbilical cord, the skin simply dies and falls off. I think it's a huge myth that Drs are taking to boys foreskins with scalpels!!!

[BlissedOut]

Seriously if that is what you believe good luck to you. I am not risking my blood pressure to get in a heated argument over something that we will never agree on. Do and feel as you do. Just leave others alone.

That's like saying people should leave families who wish to circumcise their daughters alone.

[misskittyfantastico]

My husband thinks that argument is a joke. He thanks his parents for evoking their right to duty of care and making the decision to have his willy snipped. P.s he has no loss of sensation, no infection and has no hang up over his gorgeous looking male hood!

I'm pleased for him and his lovely penis, truly I am, but he doesn't speak for all circumcised males. Anecdotal arguments don't really hold much sway imho.

[babyla]

There are a whole range of choices parents make on behalf of their children's bodies/lives all the time, ear piercing, ears pinned back, extra toe removed at birth, skins tags removed from various parts of the body. These are all done for various medical, cosmetic reasons and at the discretion of the parent. People have a right to make their own choices for what they think is in the best interests of their child regardless of how misguided or ill-informed anyone else thinks it may be.
Incidentally I'm not against but my
choice for my child is no.

[Alexander Beetle]

My husband thinks that argument is a joke. He thanks his parents for evoking their right to duty of care and making the decision to have his willy snipped. P.s he has no loss of sensation, no infection and has no hang up over his gorgeous looking male hood!

That's great. My uncirced lover is thankful his parents exercised THEIR duty of care and left his alone. As was my XDP. What's your point?

[kezty]

My DH just said to me "think about the poor little buggers in winter! He'll freeze without his beanie on!"
Classic :D

[kalgirl]

The latest medical research on the benefits of circumcision published by the University of Sydney is an interesting read.

http://sydney.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=8755

The US medical journal 'Cancer' also released the findings of their research into circumcision dramatically cutting the rate of prostrate cancer this week.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/health-science/circumcision-may-cut-risk-of-prostate-cancer/story-e6frg8y6-1226297564266

[misskittyfantastico]

There are a whole range of choices parents make on behalf of their children's bodies/lives all the time, ear piercing, ears pinned back, extra toe removed at birth, skins tags removed from various parts of the body. These are all done for various medical, cosmetic reasons and at the discretion of the parent. People have a right to make their own choices for what they think is in the best interests of their child regardless of how misguided or ill-informed anyone else thinks it may be.
Incidentally I'm not against but my
choice for my child is no.

I disagree.

What if I want to get my newborn daughters labia pierced? Or her eyebrow? Or give my five year old botox?

[~Bec~]

Absolutely, no way. Thousands of years of evolution has left men with foreskins and I have faith in evolution as it's served us pretty well. Moreover, it's not my penis so why would/should I be able to surgically modify it for arguably no benefit? My son was born perfect without the need for surgical modifications and he will stay that way unless there is a sound medical reason.

It has been found that circ has actually increased the spread of HIV and other STDs as people are under the illusion that because they are circ'd they don't need to use a condom. :(

[jessesgirl]

Altering your baby sons genitals to "Look like Daddy" is the one thing in these arguments that makes my stomach churn.

Are you going to transplant pubic hair to complete the "look"?

I'm sorry for being so blunt, but seriously, do you really think its a good enough reason to cut your baby's pen!s? Why not wait until he is older, than he can decide for himself?

Geez not a smart comparison! But each to their own I guess!

Lucky for you, you don't need to worry what I do in my life..

No one has the right to bag others opinions.. That's why it's called an opinion. Sorry of I offend but it's the truth

[babyla]

I disagree.

What if I want to get my newborn daughters labia pierced? Or her eyebrow? Or give my five year old botox?

I'm referring to procedures/choices which are legal even if they are controversial (including choices like education, vaccination, etc..) These are the things parents in our society have a right to choose as advocates for their children whether others agree with it or not.

[misskittyfantastico]

I'm referring to procedures/choices which are legal even if they are controversial (including choices like education, vaccination, etc..) These are the things parents in our society have a right to choose as advocates for their children whether others agree with it or not.

You said cosmetic in your earlier post and I disagree that a parent has the right to permanently alter their childs body for cosmetic reasons without said childs consent. I'm not sure that the senarios I mentioned above are illegal? They're certainly cosmetic and imo shouldn't be left to the discretion of the parent. Nor should RIC.

[misskittyfantastico]

No one has the right to bag others opinions..

I kinda think that they do and they can - it's called freedom of speech.....and bubhub:p

[BigRedV]

My husband thinks that argument is a joke. He thanks his parents for evoking their right to duty of care and making the decision to have his willy snipped. P.s he has no loss of sensation, no infection and has no hang up over his gorgeous looking male hood!

Your husband wouldn't know what it's like to have a foreskin and what it feels like so how would he know there's no loss of sensation?

[babyla]

You said cosmetic in your earlier post and I disagree that a parent has the right to permanently alter their childs body for cosmetic reasons without said childs consent. I'm not sure that the senarios I mentioned above are illegal? They're certainly cosmetic and imo shouldn't be left to the discretion of the parent. Nor should RIC.

When I said cosmetic I was referring to procedures such as ear pinning and extra toe removal, that parents have these things done for cosmetic reasons ie the way it looks. I agree the things you mentioned should not be left at the discretion of the parent but I believe that things I mentioned should be.

[Kimberleygal1]

I get that they love their sons just as much as we do, and Im not sure I would call it abuse, but I do think the people who do it are very misguided.

Same could be said for people that choose not to do it :)

[BigRedV]

When I said cosmetic I was referring to procedures such as ear pinning and extra toe removal, that parents have these things done for cosmetic reasons ie the way it looks. I agree the things you mentioned should not be left at the discretion of the parent but I believe that things I mentioned should be.

There have been people in this thread who say they circumcise because they think it looks better, if that's not cosmetic reasons, I don't know what is. Also, I don't think penises are the most attractive thing in the world whether they're cut or not.

[babyla]

You said cosmetic in your earlier post and I disagree that a parent has the right to permanently alter their childs body for cosmetic reasons without said childs consent. I'm not sure that the senarios I mentioned above are illegal? They're certainly cosmetic and imo shouldn't be left to the discretion of the parent. Nor should RIC.

Btw parents do things all the time to their childs body without 'said consent' in the examples I gave but you can also include heel prick at birth.

[misskittyfantastico]

When I said cosmetic I was referring to procedures such as ear pinning and extra toe removal, that parents have these things done for cosmetic reasons ie the way it looks. I agree the things you mentioned should not be left at the discretion of the parent but I believe that things I mentioned should be.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree.:)

[babyla]

Well we'll have to agree to disagree.:)

I think so :) please see my signature ;)

[misskittyfantastico]

Btw parents do things all the time to their childs body without 'said consent' in the examples I gave but you can also include heel prick at birth.

Cosmetic.
Trust me, after having a sick, 31 week prem, I know all too well what parents must watch their babies suffer through in order to help them survive.
I'm arguing that RIC is a cosmetic, unnecessary procedure.

ETA I'm all for free speech - RIC isn't about freedom of speech, it's about human rights.

[BigRedV]

Same could be said for people that choose not to do it :)

I think people have come to realise it is a cruel procedure that they would rather not put their child through.

Years ago, it was commonplace, even if your figures are true (25%) that's still 75% of boys that are not done these days, I actually think people are more educated about circumcision, which is why rates have dropped. I do think figures are closer to 15% :)

The RACP (or any other medical board in the world) does not recommend circumcision in infants, do you think every medical board in the world is misguided! LOL

[babyla]

There have been people in this thread who say they circumcise because they think it looks better, if that's not cosmetic reasons, I don't know what is. Also, I don't think penises are the most attractive thing in the world whether they're cut or not.

I'm agreeing with you. Im saying people do a lot of things to their kids for cosmetic reasons.

[Kimberleygal1]

I'd of absolutely had my son circumcised if given the choice- he has a hypospadias so once this is fixed he will appear circumcised anyway.
As a child I remember my brother with many horrible infections and would rather my son not deal with that. I'm sure my brother would have been scarred far less by having his foreskin removed as an infant rather than the pain he suffered and poking and prodding he endured.
Not to mention DF, male cousins, uncles and grandfathers are circumcised so it would avoid some questions.

My 2 nephews had to have it done at aged 6 due to the foreskin being so tight.
And having worked in a childrens hospital the amount of boys having to have it done was very high.

[FiveInTheBed]

(wow - what an incredibly old thread)

..my answer to the poll was 'I have circ'd - but would NOT do it again'

I was from a small country town when I made the decision, based on general 'opinions' of the people around me... '' it'll be cleaner..especially when he is older" was the main one (many nurses in my family)

I know better now.

[Kimberleygal1]

- lots of men and their partners prefer the appearance of a circumcised penis, it's odor free, feels cleaner and sex is more enjoyable

Ive met circ'd men with smelly penises, a penis can smell either way if the man isn't hygiene

- health experts say circumcised males are less likely to be diagnosed with prostate cancer later in life

This I haven't heard?

- cancer of the cervix is due to the papilloma virus, it thrives on and under the foreskin where it can be transmitted during intercourse, cancer can be reduced by 20% if more men were circumcised.

Hpv can also be passed on from mother to infant during delivery and cervical cancer can also have genetic factors

- circumcised men are 8 times less likely to contract HIV and sexually transmitted diseases.

Myth. Not true at all.

- UT infections are common and 10times less likely if circumcised

Not heard this either?
Girls carry a higher uti risk than un circ'd men,
We treat a girls uti with antibiotics not removal

And a quarter of the population of males are circumcised so the procedure is more common than people may think.

But stats indicate that ric is lowering, 20 or so years time that will be alot lower


Sent from my MB526 using BubHub

I didn't say girls carry a higher risk of uti!
What I said are facts that come from research and if you educate yourself you will come across the information.

[Kimberleygal1]

Your husband wouldn't know what it's like to have a foreskin and what it feels like so how would he know there's no loss of sensation?

And yours wouldn't know what it feels like without a foreskin so how does he know there's a loss of sensation without one? Goes both ways doesn't it?

[Jakois]

I didn't say girls carry a higher risk of uti!
What I said are facts that come from research and if you educate yourself you will come across the information.

Could you post links to this research?

[jessesgirl]

Can I ask what RIC means?

[babyla]

Cosmetic.
Trust me, after having a sick, 31 week prem, I know all too well what parents must watch their babies suffer through in order to help them survive.
I'm arguing that RIC is a cosmetic, unnecessary procedure.

ETA I'm all for free speech - RIC isn't about freedom of speech, it's about human rights.

We both actually agree with each other about the topic, to circumcise or not. What we don't agree on is that parents should have the right to choose, which I believe they have the right to choose.

[BigRedV]

I didn't say girls carry a higher risk of uti!
What I said are facts that come from research and if you educate yourself you will come across the information.

I think the RACP are educated people, experts I would say, yet they do not recommend it :)

[misskittyfantastico]

Can I ask what RIC means?

Routine Infant Circumcision.


We both actually agree with each other about the topic, to circumcise or not. What we don't agree on is that parents should have the right to choose, which I believe they have the right to choose.

Yep, that about sums it up. I don't believe it's my choice - it ain't my foreskin!

[BigRedV]

And yours wouldn't know what it feels like without a foreskin so how does he know there's a loss of sensation without one? Goes both ways doesn't it?

I've not said if my husband is or isn't?

It seems common sense to me that the head of a penis, hidden by a foreskin all its life is much more sensitive than the head of the penis that has had to get used to not being covered, just like skin underneath the layers on our arm is much more sensitive than skin exposed!

[Kimberleygal1]

My husband thinks that argument is a joke. He thanks his parents for evoking their right to duty of care and making the decision to have his willy snipped. P.s he has no loss of sensation, no infection and has no hang up over his gorgeous looking male hood!

My husband says the same! :D The head of the penis is where the sensation is not a piece of skin and if you think about it, you have to pull the skin back to get to the head so what's the point of the foreskin :laughing:

[share a book]

Can I ask what RIC means?

Routine Infant Circumcision. The removal of a piece of an infant boy where there is no present underlying medical problem to suggest this piece needs to be removed.

[babyla]

Routine Infant Circumcision.



Yep, that about sums it up. I don't believe it's my choice - it ain't my foreskin!

We're back at the beginning, refer to my first post. I can tell from your posting stats that this truly could go on all night so good night :)

[Hootenanny]

My husband says the same! :D The head of the penis is where the sensation is not a piece of skin and if you think about it, you have to pull the skin back to get to the head so what's the point of the foreskin :laughing:

Actually the foreskin has the highest concentration of nerve endings than any other part of the penis.

[misskittyfantastico]

I can tell from your posting stats that this truly could go on all night so good night :)

Pardon?:confused:
I don't really see what my stats have to do with it? I thought we were having a fairly civil discussion?
Whatever....

[jessesgirl]

Routine Infant Circumcision.

Ta! 😄

[Kimberleygal1]

I think people have come to realise it is a cruel procedure that they would rather not put their child through.

Years ago, it was commonplace, even if your figures are true (25%) that's still 75% of boys that are not done these days, I actually think people are more educated about circumcision, which is why rates have dropped. I do think figures are closer to 15% :)

The RACP (or any other medical board in the world) does not recommend circumcision in infants, do you think every medical board in the world is misguided! LOL

There are a lot less drs doing the procedure nowadays for a start, also many mothers that wanted their sons done were frowned upon by nurses and made to feel bad so therefore they just didnt pursue it. I have many friends who wanted it done for their boys but couldn't get it done in a public hospital.

As a parent we decide what is best for our children and we have no doubt that we did the right thing by having our boys done. There's certainly nothing cruel about it, it's a very quick procedure that if done very early bub is not going to remember the pain. A boy having to have it done later is cruel in regards to the post op recovery.

[nicoletta]

I repeat - 20000-70000 nerve endings are present in a foreskin.
Kimberlygal1 - to argue that sex is the same/better without one, is just plain moronic. I don't have a p3nis so I guess I can't be sure, but I'm fairly certain that nerve endings are used to you know, feel things, and I literally do not understand how you can argue with that...?
A clitoris only has around 8000 nerve endings, and I'm almost certain the head of a p3nis is nearly half that, so maybe you and your husband need to do a bit of research.

[Lovemyfam]

My 2 nephews had to have it done at aged 6 due to the foreskin being so tight.
And having worked in a childrens hospital the amount of boys having to have it done was very high.

unfortunetly this is done too much and many dont need it done. How would they know the foreskin is too tight? Since the foreskin is only suppose to slide back during sex really and a 6 year old shouldn't be having sex


My husband says the same! :D The head of the penis is where the sensation is not a piece of skin and if you think about it, you have to pull the skin back to get to the head so what's the point of the foreskin :laughing:

Actually, there are a lot of nerve endings in the foreskin and if the head of a penis is getting knocked around in pants all day it is going to toughen up thus less sensitivity.

[Kimberleygal1]

Could you post links to this research?

They weren't taken from the same article so if you google "benefits of circumcision" you will get lots of information.

[BigRedV]

There are a lot less drs doing the procedure nowadays for a start, also many mothers that wanted their sons done were frowned upon by nurses and made to feel bad so therefore they just didnt pursue it. I have many friends who wanted it done for their boys but couldn't get it done in a public hospital.

As a parent we decide what is best for our children and we have no doubt that we did the right thing by having our boys done. There's certainly nothing cruel about it, it's a very quick procedure that if done very early bub is not going to remember the pain. A boy having to have it done later is cruel in regards to the post op recovery.

Well it's actually banned in NSW public hospitals, and for good reason :D Perhaps doctors also agree that it's cruel and unnecessary and that's why it's difficult to find a doctor to do it!

I personally think it's cruel. Strapping a baby down? Not my idea of fun. And I've got 3 friends who circumcised their sons. Two were in tears whilst waiting outside for the doctor to complete the procedure as they could hear their baby screaming.

[Nemmi]

I didn't say girls carry a higher risk of uti!
What I said are facts that come from research and if you educate yourself you will come across the information.

No I said girls do and we do.
I have done research and found very few studies promoting 'benefits' and many showing their is no medical benefit

Sent from my MB526 using BubHub

[BigRedV]

They weren't taken from the same article so if you google "benefits of circumcision" you will get lots of information.

Did you also google "risks of circumcision"

[Kimberleygal1]

I repeat - 20000-70000 (tel:20000-70000) nerve endings are present in a foreskin.
Kimberlygal1 - to argue that sex is the same/better without one, is just plain moronic. I don't have a p3nis so I guess I can't be sure, but I'm fairly certain that nerve endings are used to you know, feel things, and I literally do not understand how you can argue with that...?
A clitoris only has around 8000 nerve endings, and I'm almost certain the head of a p3nis is nearly half that, so maybe you and your husband need to do a bit of research.

Noone can be sure! Why would we need to do research? He has much sensation and gets much pleasure whatever the case so big deal.....

[Lovemyfam]

can i ask again?


Why do pro circ people not push to have it legal to do girls? The clitoral hood is pretty much just female foreskin it protects the clitoal glans. There is a study that says cutting of girls can reduce HIV too some women experience pain during sex in the area it can become seperatwd and painful so would it be better to just remove it when babies?

[Kimberleygal1]

Well it's actually banned in NSW public hospitals, and for good reason :D Perhaps doctors also agree that it's cruel and unnecessary and that's why it's difficult to find a doctor to do it!

I personally think it's cruel. Strapping a baby down? Not my idea of fun. And I've got 3 friends who circumcised their sons. Two were in tears whilst waiting outside for the doctor to complete the procedure as they could hear their baby screaming.

Our first boy was taken from us asleep whilst i was still on hospital and returned to us 10mins later asleep. Our second boy was done at a clinic, he was taken away, we heard him cry, he was brought back to me, was fed and soothed. Nothing traumatic about that. Both were 4 days old.

[Kimberleygal1]

can i ask again?


Why do pro circ people not push to have it legal to do girls? The clitoral hood is pretty much just female foreskin it protects the clitoal glans. There is a study that says cutting of girls can reduce HIV too some women experience pain during sex in the area it can become seperatwd and painful so would it be better to just remove it when babies?

From what I have read females are circumcised purely so they have no pleasure at all. circumcised men still have pleasure. No comparison, done for totally different reasons.

[Kimberleygal1]

Did you also google "risks of circumcision"

Of course and the benefits outweighed the risks. The dr that did our boys had 30 yrs experience so we trusted him completely.

[share a book]

There are a lot less drs doing the procedure nowadays for a start, also many mothers that wanted their sons done were frowned upon by nurses and made to feel bad so therefore they just didnt pursue it. I have many friends who wanted it done for their boys but couldn't get it done in a public hospital.

As a parent we decide what is best for our children and we have no doubt that we did the right thing by having our boys done. There's certainly nothing cruel about it, it's a very quick procedure that if done very early bub is not going to remember the pain. A boy having to have it done later is cruel in regards to the post op recovery.

That would ring alarm bells for me. If I wanted a cosmetic procedure done and was frowned upon by those in the field, or found it difficult finding a place that would allow it, I would have to wonder why.

Take ear piercing. DD was nearly 8 and the first place we went to said 7+ years, and most other places do, too. Parents have to look far and wide to find a piercer to do it in infancy. That indicates to me that it isn't right.

[mum2one99]

We don't dock dogs tails or crop their ears anymore (illegal in my state at least!). you wonder when human rights will catch up with animal rights.....

[misskittyfantastico]

Our first boy was taken from us asleep whilst i was still on hospital and returned to us 10mins later asleep. Our second boy was done at a clinic, he was taken away, we heard him cry, he was brought back to me, was fed and soothed. Nothing traumatic about that. Both were 4 days old.

You weren't with them while they had it done?

[Kimberleygal1]

unfortunetly this is done too much and many dont need it done. How would they know the foreskin is too tight? Since the foreskin is only suppose to slide back during sex really and a 6 year old shouldn't be having sex



Actually, there are a lot of nerve endings in the foreskin and if the head of a penis is getting knocked around in pants all day it is going to toughen up thus less sensitivity.

My nephews couldn't even go to the toilet without pain as the skin was too tight around the head of the penis with barely any movement at all so there was no choice but to get circumcised. My sil also actually requested it be done when they were born but was told she couldn't have it done in the public hospital she gave birth in so she just didn't bother pursuing it.

[Kimberleygal1]

That would ring alarm bells for me. If I wanted a cosmetic procedure done and was frowned upon by those in the field, or found it difficult finding a place that would allow it, I would have to wonder why.

Take ear piercing. DD was nearly 8 and the first place we went to said 7+ years, and most other places do, too. Parents have to look far and wide to find a piercer to do it in infancy. That indicates to me that it isn't right.

It went out of vogue for a while like things do I guess resulting in less drs being trained to do it I would think and mostly it's only Jewish drs that do it. All I know is that when ds1 was done whilst still in hospital there was a lot of other boys getting done too and same as when we had ds2 done in the after hrs clinic. The clinic had 7 babies to do 4 nights a week so there's many parents out there that believe in having it done and the dr said circumcision is becoming more common again.

[headoverfeet]

No our boys are intact, the thought of seeking out someone to chop off a piece of my child for asymptomatic reasons makes me want to vomit.

[share a book]

It went out of vogue for a while like things do I guess resulting in less drs being trained to do it I would think and mostly it's only Jewish drs that do it. All I know is that when ds1 was done whilst still in hospital there was a lot of other boys getting done too and same as when we had ds2 done in the after hrs clinic. The clinic had 7 babies to do 4 nights a week so there's many parents out there that believe in having it done and the dr said circumcision is becoming more common again.

I wonder how many would have needed to have their body part taken from them later in life, and how many never would have needed surgery.

[BigRedV]

Of course and the benefits outweighed the risks. The dr that did our boys had 30 yrs experience so we trusted him completely.

That is your opinion, however, not the opinion of the medical experts in Australia :)

[Lovemyfam]

From what I have read females are circumcised purely so they have no pleasure at all. circumcised men still have pleasure. No comparison, done for totally different reasons.

Not what I read tho

[maplefern]

I disagree.

What if I want to get my newborn daughters labia pierced? Or her eyebrow? Or give my five year old botox?

I'm sorry this comparison is a little over the top!

[Alexander Beetle]

I'm sorry this comparison is a little over the top!

Why? Many people have stated they would cut their child's p3nis so it looks better.

[our3boys]

I got all my 3 boys done my reasoning was to avoid infections. Do I regret it you bet as late last year ds2 got an infection on the end of his penis and atm my poor little ds3 has One. I wash them every night and what I put it down to is they have no protection and my older boys refuse to wear undies. I think for all it's best to not get done I just wish I had known sooner instead of listening to dh and his family as I now feel horrible.

[OurLittleBlessing]

I do wonder why people feel they need to force their opinions on others. I think your energy could be far better spent. We will most certainly be circumcising our son. I will not be bullied against it. Call us whatever u like...go away and concentrate your energy on being the best parent you can be.

It is an issue that can get heated for sure.

The thing is though, prior to joining bubhub DH & I would probably have had our child circumcised should we have had a boy. It was what most people we knew did, and I'm ashamed to say I probably wouldn't have given it too much thought as I just thought it was what you did.

Discussions like these are really important. This is not a trivial issue. I have read stories from grown men who feel angry that their parents took part of their sexual organ away from them without consent.

[OurLittleBlessing]

I got all my 3 boys done my reasoning was to avoid infections. Do I regret it you bet as late last year ds2 got an infection on the end of his penis and atm my poor little ds3 has One. I wash them every night and what I put it down to is they have no protection and my older boys refuse to wear undies. I think for all it's best to not get done I just wish I had known sooner instead of listening to dh and his family as I now feel horrible.

:hugs:
:hugs::hugs: You did what you thought was best at the time, which is all any of us can do. Thanks for sharing your story :hugs:

[lambjam]

I see a lot of people asking why others can't "live and let live" on this issue. Think of it this way: do we "live and let live" when we witness child abuse? Or social injustice? Or human rights abuse? To many people, on BubHub and in the community at large, RIC falls under the same category.

Yes it's legal... for now. Many things we now accept as abusive were legal until people campaigned for change. Imagine an internet forum back in the day where men spoke about whether or not to hit their wives, and some men piping up and saying "Hey, live and let live! It's my opinion that it's ok, and it's legal so it's my right!".

But for the fact that the internet wasn't around, this is an accurate representation of how many men felt. Does that mean others shouldn't have campaigned for change? Of course not.

[Witwicky]

I see a lot of people asking why others can't "live and let live" on this issue. Think of it this way: do we "live and let live" when we witness child abuse? Or social injustice? Or human rights abuse? To many people, on BubHub and in the community at large, RIC falls under the same category.

Yes it's legal... for now. Many things we now accept as abusive were legal until people campaigned for change. Imagine an internet forum back in the day where men spoke about whether or not to hit their wives, and some men piping up and saying "Hey, live and let live! It's my opinion that it's ok, and it's legal so it's my right!".

But for the fact that the internet wasn't around, this is an accurate representation of how many men felt. Does that mean others shouldn't have campaigned for change? Of course not.

Thank you! I wanted to say something similar but I was having difficulty articulating it without my post sounding too 'heated'.

There are practices occurring all around the world which are still legal - that doesn't make them okay. I'm passionate about human rights and I feel that *routinely* circumcising an infant is a gross breach of that individual's human rights.

[lulululu]

Even if my child was having foreskin issues, I would exhaust all other treatments (eg, steroid creams, antibiotics) before considering its removal. In a child with no foreskin issues, I find it's removal for the parents choice abhorrent.

I agree 100%

[Lovemyfam]

one thing not mentioned is sure drs push it, and governments wont stop it because foreskin is a HUGE money maker, one little foreskin can make so many people money (remember that it is used in anti aging facial creams) so they sell the cream and governments get taxes from the sales.


In an article for The Tyee (http://thetyee.ca/News/2006/07/25/Circumcision/), Dr. Paul Tinari estimated that a single male foreskin can be worth upwards of $100,000. He argued that men who are circumcised have a right to the revenue made off the resale of their foreskins (just as someone who sells their hair for wigs would, for example).

[firsttimeparents]

As a mother I chose not to get my boys done at birth, even though there dad is. We just decided there was no need, although it has ended up with our ds1 2.7 yrs needing to have one only a few weeks ago due to constant infections every 2 weeks and on ab and in discomfort! We tried steroid cream and ab, both of which didn't work. The surgery was in a hospital done by a pediatric urologist and he had 9 stitches on his penis. Something I would chose for my boy? No way, but things happen and sometimes we have no choice. I don't think people should be made guilty for a choice they make for there child, most people don't make choices to intentionally do the wrong thing by there little ones.

[Confucius]

I haven't and I never would. There's nothing wrong with a foreskin.

[JaneDoe]

No our boys are intact, the thought of seeking out someone to chop off a piece of my child for asymptomatic reasons makes me want to vomit.

Im not getting into an argument about your decision NOT to do it I fully understand why people chose not to BUT I get annoyed when people make statements like the above 'chop off a piece of my child' that annoy me!!!

NO SCALPEL or CUTTING is involved !!!!! The proecdure is very similar to the clamping of the umbilical cord, the skin simply dies and falls off! Young baby boys aren't having their foreskins CHOPPED off!!!!

[lulululu]

I am going to paste in my reply to the female circ thread as it applies here as well. I just want to add we have two natural/intact sons.
I'm totally against all forms of routine infant circumcision. In the case of medical necessity, I feel neutral. I say neutral rather than supportive as I think people blur the line with what is "necessary". Prevention of disease does not count as necessary in my opinion. Perhaps if I lived in Africa I might feel different, but I live in Australia and we have easy access to condoms which are a lot better at preventing disease than circ'ing women is.
If an adult decides to get circ'ed I'm all for it, as long as they have been provided with factual unbiased information about the pro's and con's. But for someone else to make that decision for another, even if it is their parent, is wrong, in my opinion.

[Lovemyfam]

Im not getting into an argument about your decision NOT to do it I fully understand why people chose not to BUT I get annoyed when people make statements like the above 'chop off a piece of my child' that annoy me!!!

NO SCALPEL or CUTTING is involved !!!!! The proecdure is very similar to the clamping of the umbilical cord, the skin simply dies and falls off! Young baby boys aren't having their foreskins CHOPPED off!!!!

some do still cut and the thought of my sons penis rotting off is gross, I know it prob doesn't rot but still that is animal abuse if people do it to puppies tails why then is it ok for a human beings

[babyla]

I'm all for campaigning against things we feel are abusive and take away from human rights.
Will we also be campaigning against parents who would like to pursue laser infant birthmark removal? Or ears being pinned? Or ear piercing? Or would others also like a say in whether I have my DS ear tag removed? These are all things which are done purely for the way it looks with the decision maker being the parent.
I like the use of the word lululu used, I chose not to with my DS, but to others that have I am neutral.

[halloweendee]

I am going to paste in my reply to the female circ thread as it applies here as well. I just want to add we have two natural/intact sons.
I'm totally against all forms of routine infant circumcision. In the case of medical necessity, I feel neutral. I say neutral rather than supportive as I think people blur the line with what is "necessary". Prevention of disease does not count as necessary in my opinion. Perhaps if I lived in Africa I might feel different, but I live in Australia and we have easy access to condoms which are a lot better at preventing disease than circ'ing women is.
If an adult decides to get circ'ed I'm all for it, as long as they have been provided with factual unbiased information about the pro's and con's. But for someone else to make that decision for another, even if it is their parent, is wrong, in my opinion.

completely agree.
i have a son and a daughter. i think circumcision is equally ******** for both sexes and arguments about prevention of disease and infection are completely outdated and illogical.

[firsttimeparents]

completely agree.
i have a son and a daughter. i think circumcision is equally ******** for both sexes and arguments about prevention of disease and infection are completely outdated and illogical.

Are you saying that a child that is having infection after infection that it's outdated and illogical that it's due to the Childs foreskin and therefor may need to have it removed?

[share a book]

Are you saying that a child that is having infection after infection that it's outdated and illogical that it's due to the Childs foreskin and therefor may need to have it removed?

As a preventative measure, I do. In the case where there is an existing problem, no. I put it in the same category as tonsils. Parents have their children's tonsils out all the time due to existing problems or ongoing infections. I doubt anyone takes issue with that, but would you routinely remove them at birth? Hopefully not, even if an older child had problems. Out of 3 of us, one has needed grommets, one has had tonsils out as an adult. Because one had problems did not mean the rest would have.

[firsttimeparents]

As a preventative measure, I do. In the case where there is an existing problem, no. I put it in the same category as tonsils. Parents have their children's tonsils out all the time due to existing problems or ongoing infections. I doubt anyone takes issue with that, but would you routinely remove them at birth? Hopefully not, even if an older child had problems. Out of 3 of us, one has needed grommets, one has had tonsils out as an adult. Because one had problems did not mean the rest would have.

I completely agree with you. Whilst my ds1 needed to have it done, we won't be getting ds2 done unless of course he has issues. It's not something I would like anyone to go through as it was so painful for my little one. But it's better than infections every 2 weeks.

[Lovemyfam]

Are you saying that a child that is having infection after infection that it's outdated and illogical that it's due to the Childs foreskin and therefor may need to have it removed?

It depends if the infection is due to the parents not caring properly for the penis and they can be educated then that is a better option then circing if the parents have gone to get a lot of opinions and not just pro circ drs then may be only option

[share a book]

It depends if the infection is due to the parents not caring properly for the penis and they can be educated then that is a better option then circing if the parents have gone to get a lot of opinions and not just pro circ drs then may be only option

Just thought I would let you know that circumcision isn't pushed here at all. It's actually hard to find a doctor who will do it.

[Doc]

I'm expecting a new bub in July and don't know what gender I'm having. If I am to be completely honest, if we have a boy, I still haven't decided what we will do. I haven't educated myself enough to feel I can make an informed decision yet. I'm finding it hard to filter passed all the passionate opinion out there to find hard fact.

DH is NOT done, he has never had any physical problems but emotionally he hated his parents for a long time for not being done. He grew up in a small community where everyone else around him was done. It may sound ridiculous as adults but to a young boy he grew up with HUGE body issues, he thought his penis was ugly and that girls preferred circ. it wasn't until we had been together a long time that he admitted his feelings about the issue. I had to convince him that as a women it made no difference to me in bed, he truly believed women thought it was inferior.

We live in a country town where there is only one hospital, there is a doctor who does it for $700 (my nephew was done 3 months ago)I spoke to a few of the midwives when DD was born 2 years ago and they said about 50% of boys born there were done!!

I think I will leave this decision to DH....

[AM]

I'm not into RIC at all, but of course if a child needs surgery for a medical problem, then it's exactly the same as any other surgery, makes no difference what part of the body it is on. If it's medically necessary, then it's medically necessary.

[share a book]

I'm not into RIC at all, but of course if a child needs surgery for a medical problem, then it's exactly the same as any other surgery, makes no difference what part of the body it is on. If it's medically necessary, then it's medically necessary.

I feel the same way.

[Lovemyfam]

Just thought I would let you know that circumcision isn't pushed here at all. It's actually hard to find a doctor who will do it.

thanks

[Witwicky]

I'm not into RIC at all, but of course if a child needs surgery for a medical problem, then it's exactly the same as any other surgery, makes no difference what part of the body it is on. If it's medically necessary, then it's medically necessary.

I completely agree. I know a few people who were required to have their boys done for medical reasons. It's a different thing altogether.

[Witwicky]

Just thought I would let you know that circumcision isn't pushed here at all. It's actually hard to find a doctor who will do it.

Yep. If this wasn't the case, there wouldn't be a thread in the pro section dedicated to helping parents find a circ doc!

[headoverfeet]

Im not getting into an argument about your decision NOT to do it I fully understand why people chose not to BUT I get annoyed when people make statements like the above 'chop off a piece of my child' that annoy me!!!

NO SCALPEL or CUTTING is involved !!!!! The proecdure is very similar to the clamping of the umbilical cord, the skin simply dies and falls off! Young baby boys aren't having their foreskins CHOPPED off!!!!

Replace it with "remove a piece of my child" if it makes it sound any better.



What amazes me is that people feel they can make this kind of permanent cosmetic decision for another person I can't imagine a mother deciding to circ her grow adult son without his consent so why would you do it to them as a baby?

If it ain't broken don't try to fix it!

[headoverfeet]

And p.s as far as I'm aware there aren't any nerve endings in an umbilical cord!!

Sorry I should say ones that detect pain, and given time a foreskin doesn't just drop off all on its own unlike the umbilical cord.

[share a book]

I can't find the comment now, but someone said it's hard to find one trained to do it because the demand was no longer there. This is not the case because people have no problems finding one to do it when there is a medical reason for it to be done, so they are obviously trained. I can't remember who said it but it must be a few pages back now.

[Von Zipper]

Im not getting into an argument about your decision NOT to do it I fully understand why people chose not to BUT I get annoyed when people make statements like the above 'chop off a piece of my child' that annoy me!!!

NO SCALPEL or CUTTING is involved !!!!! The proecdure is very similar to the clamping of the umbilical cord, the skin simply dies and falls off! Young baby boys aren't having their foreskins CHOPPED off!!!!

But to be able to clamp the skin they need to tear the foreskin away from the penis - the foreskin is attached to the glans when a baby boy is born and usually doesn't separate until a few years down the track, on it's own.

So it is still INCREDIBLY painful for these littles boys to have their foreskin torn away from their glans to have the plastibell placed. IMO it would be less painful to be cut than torn!

[BlissedOut]

I can't find the comment now, but someone said it's hard to find one trained to do it because the demand was no longer there. This is not the case because people have no problems finding one to do it when there is a medical reason for it to be done, so they are obviously trained. I can't remember who said it but it must be a few pages back now.

Exactly, it's a lack of doctors willing to remove part of a baby for non-medical reasons.

[hopefully2]

The tides will change as more and more boys get infections under their foreskins. These things always swing in fits and round a bouts.