View Full Version : Respecting ALL people's beliefs
Little_Toad
23-06-2006, 10:44
I hope no one takes offence to this.. it isn't meant to be a nasty post.
I am not religous in any way neither do I cone from a religous family.
I prefer to belive in science as to how the world was made. It would be nice if there was a god, and if there was ever scientific proof I'd jump on board.
My little sister is married to a born again christian and has also become devoutly religous. During our conversations over the net she used to talk about religoin and would always say things like "I needed god in my life" etc..
My response was: "I am very happy you have found god and that it has enriched your life, but I have my own beliefs and choose to stay that way". I asked her not to discuss religion with me so it wouldnt interfere with our relationship and I wouldn''t offend her.
Due to other family reasons, my sister no longer talks to me, but over the last year of so I've been getting religous spam emails from her.
Why is it that many religous people feel it is ok to force their views onto others, but as non religous people we have to be respectable to their views.
I would never dream of sending her information on being an athiest.
Mum&bubs
23-06-2006, 10:49
I know exactly how you feel. I wouldnt say that i dont believe in god as such but i dont believe in a lot of religious ways and my MIL constantly forces me to go to church with her & is trying to baptize DD. She sends me things in the mail, paid $500 for me to go to Adore (a 5 day religious program) and tells me i am going to be cathlolic. I am happy for her to have faith but i just wish she would understand that i dont have the same passion as her & dont need to feel guilty if i dont go to church with her.
~Emmylou~
23-06-2006, 12:08
I think alot of it has to do with them feeling like it is their moral obligation to "save" you from yourself.
It's more about them than you - they feel like they HAVE to try to convert you in order to be able to sleep at night just knowing they have tried, and that's enough in God's eyes.
I totally understand how you feel, as someone who was raised Catholic but is no longer I find it incredibly insulting when someone assumes that I haven't put any thought into my beliefs - in my twenties that was ALL I thought about and I am very happy with my conclusions thankyou. :thumbsup:
Mum&bubs
23-06-2006, 12:13
Yep apparently it is part of my MIL's religion to "convert" people
lukesmama
23-06-2006, 12:20
I agree, i find it really difficult to even have a normal conversation with religous peopple without religous talk shoved in at every opportunity.
My DF's step mother is a very committed Seventh Day Adventist and she is constanlty telling (not asking) us to get married asap because we have a child out of wedlock, which she hates. She scoffs at my wedding day plans especially the part about the colour of the dress i would like. Its not like i'm doing it out of disrespect but she just wont accept the fact that we don't have the same beliefs as her. It's actually quite upsetting because she is a very intimmidating woman.:(
tyler's mum
23-06-2006, 12:21
i know where u are coming from i DONT believe in god and never will..... there is nothing worst them people who preach to you,, my nan is christian and she is all ways preaching to me about god and her beliefs having her or anyone preach there beliefs will not make me change my mind for me there is no GOD,,, i dont really have any real beliefs in whats out there but i dont junge the people who have there own beliefs its there choice....
I'm a Christian and have lots of non-Christian friends, whom I love to bits. I would never force my beliefs on them but they know I am here if they ever want to know, sometimes they ask my opinion on stuff and I then tell them what I think.
When I first became a Christian I was accused by my brother of forcing my beliefs on him, but he was the one who interrogated me and then gave me the choice of "Your God or me". I was actually staying with him and he threatened to chuck me out, it was pretty heavy. Thankfully in time he came to accept my beliefs although I'm sure that if I was any other religion I would have been embraced as being cool or something... he is very accepting of his friends of other religions.
I don't really get the forcing beliefs on you though. To me you can't force God on anyone, it has to come from them and you could put them right off by that kind of thing... so what's the point? But if they are genuinely seeking, you can then encourage them, it's about being sensitive to others I guess.
When I was an atheist I was actually much more vocal in my criticism of religion and would often annoy the heck out of people. I remember being really negative about Christianity in my uni lectures and would argue my point as much as possible. OK, you might not see atheism as a religion, but it is a belief system. I used to tell Christians that religion was the "opium of the masses", that it was "just a crutch" and was very pro-evolution etc, despite the fact that as a science student I was very aware that it was a theory with lots of disputable areas etc.
I don't get too much criticism now as a Christian, probably because I'm a SAHM and can choose who I spend time with, but DH does at work. He's constantly asked to defend his beliefs and he shouldn't really have to. As someone who values integrity and truth (I might add you don't need to be religious at all for this) he is often put between a rock and a hard place, working for a company who will gladly sack you if you don't tow the line... but so far he has stuck to what is right and is doing well.
So basically... we all get judged by others from time to time.... whether we are an Atheist, Christian, Buddist, Muslim... whatever. Maybe it is human nature or just bossy people? Thankfully that's pretty much where it stops in Aussie, when I think of places around the world where people are getting treated much worse or killed I feel pretty content with my own lot.
Take care x
I believe ppl may want to convert to feel like they have helped you as they feel God has helped them.
I don't think its right to push beliefs on others as God is not like that
I believe we have free agency so we may choose for ourselves
I certainly would not be happy to have someone tell me to not believe in Christ
Tea Lady
23-06-2006, 13:46
I think that there is a big difference between individual "religious" people on this one (and a big difference between how individual "non-religious" people react too).
I agree with whoever said that often people are motivated by wanting to share a good thing they have - to me it wouldn't seem inappropriate for someone to do that unless I'd asked them not to (I'm thinking about how I"d feel if someone from a different religion did that to me). I also don't personally mind people offering to tell other people about a religion (eg handing out pamphlets) as long as they don't force people to stop and talk to them.
I think the disrespect starts when someone refuses not to talk about it if you ask them to, or it can also be in the tone of the way they talk - I don't enjoy interacting with people who are mocking or arrogant about the way they present their own belief system - I don't think there's any excuse for that, even if by some chance they are right about the facts!!
I don't think you have to agree with what someone believes to respect them - I think respect is about how you treat them as a person, whether that's the way you talk about your own beliefs, or the fact that you shut up about them when someone asks you to! :)
sunnyflower
23-06-2006, 13:52
i am a committed christian and i love to talk about God,however i would never dream of forcing my opinions down other people's throats.God lets us choose or not to follow him so i let others choose for themselves.i think it comes down to the personality of the person whether they force their opinions not if they are religious.
Little_Toad
23-06-2006, 13:56
I feel sad for my sister,
She has never been religous and married a guy who is almost freaky religous.
he wont let her wear sexy clothes outside the house. I bought her a dress once that she looked beautiful in it and then said "DP wouldn't let me wear it"
She now wears dowdy clothes.
They are going to home school their children, He doesn't let any of her friends hug the children.. even her female friends.
They sit and read the bible all the time but don't go to church. Their children dont have cd's like normal kids but instead "jesus loves me" cd's.
I saw them at christmas once and asked what they were geting from Santa.
sisters reply" we don't believe in santa, we light a birthday cake for jesus instead".
It's sad the fun is taken out of chrstmas especially when she knew how fantastic it was a christmas time with our family and beiiving in Santa.
My sister wrote my dad a nasty letter (obviosuly written by her DP) saying she never wanted to see him again and really awful untrue things.. all because he got remarried.
Its' sad when one of your family seems to be "taken over" by someone else's beliefs.
Tea Lady
23-06-2006, 15:17
It must be hard for you to see your sister change like that. I don't know what to say except maybe try not to lose contact with her? (I know I don't know the family situation you mentioned earlier, so maybe this wouldn't work) I would imagine that she would still really value her relationship with you, even though she's changed in so many ways. Are there still things you have in common that you could enjoy together?
I'm sorry to hear about your situation with her - family relationships are terrific when they go well, but can be such a source of pain when they don't :hugs:
poshBecks
23-06-2006, 15:54
I agree with you.... peolpe shouldn't force their beliefs on you. As christains we have been comanded to spread the Good news... so we tell people. But the choice is theirs.. not ours!!! If they aren't interested we should respect that & let it be.
Its sad that your sister has started pushing you away with it!! :(
I'm a Christian too, but most people who talk to me about God either know I am a Christian (from church etc) or bring it up completely out of the blue at which point I will talk - within reason and with respect!
I believe that it is a totally individual thing anyway, as it is between you and God and no-one else should have any bearing on how you live your life! It is just good to meet with other Christians to encourage each other in your common beliefs and lifestyle.
If I felt that I was in any way superior to anyone who isn't of my particular "stream" of christianity, from another religion or completely non-religious - I would have missed out on so many wonderful friends!
To quote the bible ... "do unto others as you would have done unto you" ... this is a great rule to live by ... kind of sums life up, don't you think?
I believe that it is a totally individual thing anyway, as it is between you and God and no-one else should have any bearing on how you live your life!
Nicely put Kyra! :thumbsup:
I often find that people make fun of me for being Christian, my family do anyway! The ask questions (incredulously) like "how can someone in the 21st Century actually believe in immaculate conception? Hasn't anyone told you the facts of life?" and "You can't actually believe that Jesus was the son of God can you?"
It upsets me, as if I answer honestly they act like I have leprosy, if I choose not to answer they make fun of me like they've won some kind of fight!
It's a shame, cause I certainly never tell them to believe in God! It's just that if they asked I would say yes!
When we were married in the Catholic church some family "freaked out" and were really upset that we might actually end up having Catholic kids...
Then come the priest jokes :mad:
Mister Noodle
24-06-2006, 01:16
Little_toad:
I feel your pain.
There's two main points I'd like to raise. First, realise that religions are memes (http://www.memes.org.uk/meme-lab/SKEP97.HTM). Just like bacteria, jokes, chain letters, superstitions, fads, spam, fashions, amway and computer viruses, they're just replicators. They replicate through a substrate of human minds embedded in a society (rather than biological or ecological or computer-based media), but there's no real difference.
The ones that survive without getting drowned out or taken over are the ones that replicate the most. Just imagine if there were a hundred different competing amway schemes. WIthin a year, there would only be one - and it would be the one with the pushiest, most amoral, obnoxious and efficient sales reps.
The actual product wouldn't matter worth a damn. In fact, there doesn't even have to BE a product - consider the fact that out of all the thousands of religions out there, all but (at most) one of them must be completely false. Even if any particular god does exist, it means the billions of people of other religions around the world are praying, taking comfort from, and proselytising for gods that simply don't exist in any way shape or form.
So it's all down to the sales pitch. Nothing more, nothing less.
From that angle, of COURSE they'll get any foot in the door that they can, twist any argument, and take every cheap shot. Because if they don't, someone else with fewer scruples will - and they'll just get taken over. You're looking at the results of milennia of highly-directed social evolution, here. Modern religions would give a pack of wild dogs pause when it comes to amoral ruthlessness.
That's why opposing positions are denigrated but their own are held sacrosanct and untouchable. It's just that little bit more effective for gaining converts. Of course the people themselves don't think this way. They're nice people, caught up in huge social forces like mosqutos in a hurricane, being used like a hand puppet by a chain letter with delusions of grandeur.
Whew.
As for respecting people's religious beliefs - I generally don't. I think that the idea of an invisible sky monster who created the universe and is primarly concerned with what I do with my genitals and whether or not I eat bacon... is simply inane.
HOWEVER, and that's a BIG however, that's not at all the same thing as respecting the people that hold them. I can respect the people all to hell. Some of the people I respect most for their intelligence, capability, compassion, wisdom, cleverness, strength and all KINDS of other qualities are religious. They're flat out wrong about some aspects of how the universe is wired up, they might be swayed by some simply invalid arguments, and they might even have some ideas about the nature of justice and morality that I find frankly horrifying... but that doesn't change a single thing about the quality of their character, the calibre of their minds, or how I feel about either. Hell, I've got to be wrong, incompetent and screwed up on all kinds of issues myself, but people seem to think well enough of me by and large.
So yeah, I respect people, not beliefs. It works pretty well for me.
If you ever want to let off some steam about the frustrations of a secular life among a religious populations, PM me. There's a really nice place I can point you at, but I won't spam the thread with it.
When we were married in the Catholic church some family "freaked out" and were really upset that we might actually end up having Catholic kids...
My kids are just kids until they are old enough to make a decision for themselves! In the mean time, they will have friends from many different backgrounds, be taught christianity with no pressure or confusing theology attached and encouraged to be children!
Jesus loved children ... maybe that is because they are too innocent (unless taught by example) to be judgemental with regard to faith, race, body shape etc
btw ... my dd has made a decision about a year ago and amazes me in her relationship with God ... she is closer to him and understands more than I do! She doesn't have the burden of theology and ritual law that adults have ... how I wish I was still so innocent. We didn't talk her into it - she just one day told us she had decided!
And should they chose to walk away from church when they are a bit older, there is no way that I will stop loving them or "excommunicate" them ... as I have said, it is totally thier decision!
Wow, Mr noodle ...
Can I be your friend anyway???? I promise not to preach ....
Hey Kyra,
I totally agree. I wasn't brought up with any religion, my parents answered my questions if I asked, and I just "felt" what I now know as Christianity. I don't even attend church myself on a regular basis as these are my beliefs.
I don't think of religion of any kind as a prerequisite for my love as a future mother, same as any choice a person makes.
I will aim to produce happy, healthy kids, with strong enough minds to know what they do and don't believe for their own reasons.
Sounds like we have a similar view on this one!
reAllytee
24-06-2006, 01:47
I will aim to produce happy, healthy kids, with strong enough minds to know what they do and don't believe for their own reasons.
Thats my aim & boy i hope i can do it heh :yes:
Thats my aim & boy i hope i can do it heh :yes:
:thumbsup: Allyoo!
CarolineF
24-06-2006, 10:15
I remember someone once said, never talk in a conversation about religion or politics.
Inevitably, people get offended or possibly misunderstand etc. Its a shame but there is so much intolerance about.
This thread has definitely changed in subject matter and maybe we could divert it back to the original purpose of it which was to provide support rather than discussions as to the validity of each persons beliefs. My personal beliefs are primarily between myself and my maker. I feel no need to justify them or force them onto others.
I will know if I am correct in my beliefs when the day comes. Until that point, my beliefs give me comfort and allow me to follow what I perceive is the route for my life.
Little Toad - it may be your sister is living within difficult circumstances herself. In times of stress or distress people turn to what they hold dear, or feel the necessity to conform in a relationship because the battle is too hard to fight.
Just give her what support you can, show her love regardless and I hope that all works well between you. :kiss:
CarolineF
24-06-2006, 14:37
Why is it that many religous people feel it is ok to force their views onto others, but as non religous people we have to be respectable to their views.
I would never dream of sending her information on being an athiest.
Mister Noodle - Maybe you could assist by providing your clearly educated response to Little Toads question in one truncated sentence.:D
Little_Toad
24-06-2006, 22:13
ittle Toad - it may be your sister is living within difficult circumstances herself. In times of stress or distress people turn to what they hold dear, or feel the necessity to conform in a relationship because the battle is too hard to fight.
Just give her what support you can, show her love regardless and I hope that all works well between you.
Caroline F: I've tried to be friends with my sister but she allows her husband to over rule her thoughts and opinions. She can also be very judgemental and cttical herself.
I remember after 9/11 we were having a conversation and I said one of the good things to come of it was that children from all over the world were going to a camp (in Israel i think) and getting to know other children from other races and realising they were all the same.
My "blonde" sister said "we dont like muslims". I was very surprised and shocked by what she said.
Conversation carried on and went a different way and her husband made a comment:
"Even if you have murdered someone and repented, jesus will still love you and let you into heaven"
I asked my sister: So who would you prefer in a room with your 3 yr old DD.. a muslim mother of 3, or a murderer who had repented to Jesus.
She wouldn't answer cause she knew deep down that her answer wouldnt be what Jesus or her husband would want. I pressed her for an answer and her DP fired up at me very aggessively
"How dare you question my wife.. etc etc". Like she didnt have an opinion and I was trying t push her against her faith. He went beserk.
Little Toad,
It is such a shame that your sister seems to have decided that it has to be family or religion. It seems like you have been trying to just love her as a sister, no strings attached. I hope she realises soon that she can still enjoy having a sis and have her religion, and also that she gets out from under her DHs shadow, he sounds like he wants to make all her decisions to me!
CarolineF
25-06-2006, 13:40
PN - my thoughts exactly:wave:
Mister Noodle
25-06-2006, 13:49
PN: again, context. I've gone into issues where I've been called on them, and not where I haven't. I answered the OP directly, and with no added rhetoric - and got kinda leapt upon in response. Defending my position from direct challenge is hardly the same thing.
If I interrupted a conversation with a christian to tell them their views were very offensive and disrespectful to me as an atheist... I wouldn't for a second think they were pushy for telling me exactly and in great detail how I was wrong. Would you?
To the OP
It sounds to me as though your sister is a victim of an overbearing, arrogant man, rather than someone who has turned to Christ. (she may have also turned to Christ, I dont know, but in my experience, most people who truly have do not treat others the way your sister has been treating you)
Im sorry you have had this awful experience with religion but here is what I think:
Like Mr Noodle said, someone has to be right so the best thing to do is to keep quiet and respectfully acknowledge everyones right to believe whatever they want, whilst smug in the knowledge that you indeed are the one who is correct :p
:laughing: I like the way you think!
Milliner
25-06-2006, 16:18
It's very hard when people like to tell you what you should believe just because they do. My mums is a christian and all of my childhood was spent going to church, I would not have a bar of it now. It drives me nuts when you get people knocking on your door trying to tell you that you need god in your life to save your soul, I'm doing just fine without religion in my life thank you!!! Each to there own!!! I do not force anything upon anyone!!! why should this be done to others!!! :ecomcity: :ecomcity: :ecomcity:
I feel the complete opposite way actually.
Being a born again christian i often find athiests and non believers trying to convince me that what I believe is wrong.
I dont pressure anyone to be a christian..i think it is better to set a good example in the things that i do, rather then bashing someones head in with a bible.
I think everyone should just accept each others beliefs... itd be pretty boring if we were all the same
i often find athiests and non believers trying to convince me that what I believe is wrong.
I dont pressure anyone to be a christian..i think it is better to set a good example in the things that i do, rather then bashing someones head in with a bible.
I think everyone should just accept each others beliefs...
I agree. I have felt that way too.
Faith without works is dead, so I agree that an example is better (as Jesus was).
Hi All
After deleting some off topic posts, this thread is now reopened for replies. Please stick to the OP subject, discussions on the merits of athiesm vs other religions can be thrashed out in a new thread.
Why is it that many religous people feel it is ok to force their views onto others, but as non religous people we have to be respectable to their views.
I would never dream of sending her information on being an athiest.
Thanks for all your contributions (and the very valiant attempts to stay on topic:D ).
CarolineF
25-06-2006, 21:32
Thank heavens for that:thumbsup:
Tea Lady
26-06-2006, 08:57
Good move X ;) :thumbsup:
Little_Toad
26-06-2006, 09:09
I dont pressure anyone to be a christian..i think it is better to set a good example in the things that i do, rather then bashing someones head in with a bible.
B Belle, it would be great if everyone was like that.
I wouldn't mind so much if my sister was a born again christian if they demonstrated kindness and general respect for everyone.
Even though I'm not religiousm I know that I am kind to other people, and if I die and find there is an Alah, a God or anyone else, I can say I was good while I was on earth.
Sometimes the mos6t Christian of people can be very un chrisitan.
Aquamarine
26-06-2006, 09:22
I am not going to comment on whether I am religious or non religious but I was just curious as to what other people think happens to you after you die?:confused:
Do you think you will see your loved ones again?
Sally.
CarolineF
26-06-2006, 09:26
It comforts me to believe that seeing loved ones again and going to a better place may be an option...even if I can't be sure at least I can live with hope.:yes:
Tea Lady
26-06-2006, 20:16
I wouldn't mind so much if my sister was a born again christian if they demonstrated kindness and general respect for everyone.......
Sometimes the mos6t Christian of people can be very un chrisitan.
This just gave me an idea (maybe not a good one, I don't know) that if you could somehow show her this it might help - I mean she would hopefully think that what the bible says is more important than what her husband / church / etc says so it might help her to see more clearly what's really going on. It would require a bit of research on your part I guess, but you never know, it could have an impact. I'm sure the christians on here would be happy to help if we can. Sorry that's about the only constructive idea I can think of :o
....I was just curious as to what other people think happens to you after you die?
Do you think you will see your loved ones again?
Maybe you could start a new thread on this topic - I think we've managed to scare off most of the people who were reading this one and I think it's a question lots of people would have an opinion on ;) :) (Plus I'm too scared to talk about anything off topic now!!)
Too right TL
No more offtopicness:shame:
But please 3spunkyboys, do start a new thread, there's always a mob who love to talk religion and philosophy. I just don't want Little Toad to have to read through 10 pages before she gets her next on topic reply.
Cheers
MumofMadd
26-06-2006, 21:32
I agree totally. I was brought up a catholic and my aunty was a nun my DP on the other hand was brought up a johovahs witness. All his family still follow the religion and he (athough he doesn't practice anymore) still believes it, we are not invited to stay at his parents when we go to visit (probably why we haven't) however they informed us that there is a nice hotel down the road. When we were living close i always got the watchtower left on the bench just incase. I do not disrespect their religion and will sit there and hear what they have to say but i know i will never believe nor do i believe any religion i choose to live my life and leave what happens next to be a suprise in a way.
Mind you when it comes down to christmas, easter and birthdays it feels like we always have a fight around these times on what will happen with DS. We have both agreed to disagree in a way, i do what i had growing up but downsized and DP has the option to take DS if he ever chose to go back, however in the end it will be up to DS and what he wants. I guess it will be something that will always be there and it will either make us or break us. Religion is a big part of some peoples lives and they feel that by telling you they are saving you from what they think may happen next.
It's very hard when people like to tell you what you should believe just because they do. My mums is a christian and all of my childhood was spent going to church, I would not have a bar of it now. It drives me nuts when you get people knocking on your door trying to tell you that you need god in your life to save your soul, I'm doing just fine without religion in my life thank you!!! Each to there own!!! I do not force anything upon anyone!!! why should this be done to others!!! :ecomcity: :ecomcity: :ecomcity:
Hi Mellie24
This is the very reason that although I am a born again christian with an active church life, my children will need to ultimately make thier own decision!
There is no way that I can make them part of my own relationship with God ... it is my relationship - not thiers!
It is up to them to decide whether they want anything to do with God and if they do, to establish thier own relationship! It is a bit like me trying to make my kids become as intimate with my friends as I am ... they have a right to choose thier own friends and develop thier friendships in a way that suits thier personality ... my kids and I are seperate human beings!!!!
In the mean time ... they can continue coming to church, enjoying the great kids program that our church has (it really is fun!), going to creche to meet with thier friends, playing in the playground afterwards, having a yummy lunch from the cafe and enjoy all of the extra "Aunties and Uncles" they have gained that are doing a fantastic job of filling in for our lack of family in Australia!
And on the topic of whether we see our loved ones when we die ... I sure hope so - I have some babies up there that I never had a chance to hold and my arms are still aching for them!
jessgray
15-07-2006, 13:04
i know how you feel. i have a relative who has cut me off because i refused to join her church and have ds christened there. i lived with this relative for 5 years, you would think she would know where i stood in my beliefs but as soon as ds was born she would preach to me every 2.5 seconds on how i was setting ds up for hell.
i love how religion makes people happy but i dont understand how some people can just cut people off for choosing a different path to their own?
Mister Noodle
15-07-2006, 14:10
The argument they use is pretty simple - it goes something like this:
1: Religion X tells us what is moral.
2: If you do not follow religion X, you must by definition fail do to what is moral.
3: If you disagree with religion X, you must by definition have opposing moral beliefs.
4: Therefore, according to religion X, you both do and approve of immoral things.
5: Therefore, according to religion X, you are a bad person and a bad influence
6: Therefore, followers of religion X should keep well away, except maybe to try and convert you.
The argument they use is pretty simple - it goes something like this:
1: Religion X tells us what is moral.
2: If you do not follow religion X, you must by definition fail do to what is moral.
3: If you disagree with religion X, you must by definition have opposing moral beliefs.
4: Therefore, according to religion X, you both do and approve of immoral things.
5: Therefore, according to religion X, you are a bad person and a bad influence
6: Therefore, followers of religion X should keep well away, except maybe to try and convert you.
I agree with this to a point. I think it is wrong to generalise people as a result of religous beliefs. Everyone is different and believe or practice the beliefs (athiests included) at different levels. Some can be over bearing some keep their thoughts to themselves and avoid topics. Religous or not both can at some time or another ram their thoughts down your throats. I think mentioning your beliefs is one thing, but you should respect someone elses choices much in the same way you would expect yours to be respected. This is where the problem lies and why we feel it is force fed to us.
In NZ there is a religion that continuously knocks on doors spreading the word....no one is out of arms reach. They have a bad reputation as a result of the forceful and annoying way they ignore you when you say 'no thank you I have my own beliefs and am not interested' then a couple of weeks later they are knocking at your front door again. This is tantamount to harrassment. On the other hand a guy who knocked at my front door once used to be a gang member...I would rather he be knocking at my front door with a bible in his hand than for any other reason. So having belief in something whether others believe it exists or not can definitely result in good things....
Mister Noodle
17-07-2006, 13:26
PN: the 'they' in that sentence referred to those that do shun / harrass people that don't share their beliefs.
Those that don't... don't.
And I've yet to come across any atheistic evangelist organisations. Have you had people come to the door to tell you the Bad News?
I know groups that push for equal status for unbelievers, and groups that struggle to maintain church/state separation, and groups that form just to give atheists a place to vent, and to meet like-minded people - but I've never yet come across one that set out to deconvert people from scratch. We tend to have little patience for such things.
[
QUOTE] Originally Posted by Mister Noodle
The argument they use is pretty simple - it goes something like this:
1: Religion X tells us what is moral.
2: If you do not follow religion X, you must by definition fail do to what is moral.
3: If you disagree with religion X, you must by definition have opposing moral beliefs.
4: Therefore, according to religion X, you both do and approve of immoral things.
5: Therefore, according to religion X, you are a bad person and a bad influence
6: Therefore, followers of religion X should keep well away, except maybe to try and convert you.
I also don't agree with your comments. I am one of thos X's and i do not consider my self a fanatic, and i also have different thoughts on certain topics presented to me.
I believe in treating all people with respect and do not make any judgements because my religion states it's wrong. My family consists of different religious background and i tolerate them all! (Catholics, Bornagains and JW's)
An we have all gotten along and haven't had any issues. Infact i attended a wedding in a Catholic Church, although i do agree that some of my faith may be a little over zealous and would condem me, but that's their problem! I definately do not agree with anyone shunning anyone because they are not of their faith and it totally baffles me why they would do that!!!
In saying that my sister a JW married a Catholic i attended the wedding and was even maid of honour and my sons were the page boys, i had no issue with it, i know some did but as i said that's their problem not mine.
Infact it was a nice mix of JW's and Catholics and we had a fantastic time!
Mumofmad i am sorry you have inlaws that are that way in thought, and it disturbs me that are not alittle more balanced.
But please do not generalise, i am not like that infact if you meet me you would of never have thought that i am one(apart from the fact that i am groovy funky momma and don't dress daggy) but i also do not preach my beliefs to anyone unless asked, to me thats how i feel! And so does my hubby!!!:D
Mister Noodle
17-07-2006, 13:39
I'll say it again, really slowly.
My comments apply to those people that DO shun and/or condemn followers of other beliefs. In my experience that's the reasoning that shunning, condemning people use. Not all religious people. Just the anti-social ones.
Ok?
(fwiw, given their premises, it's actually quite hard to fault their conclusion...)
mmm Mister noodle your post was posted as i was typing my reply:)
Mister Noodle
17-07-2006, 13:44
aaah.
Sowwy.
you are a softy at heart!!!!!:thumbsup:
A reminder of the OP (in part):
Why is it that many religous people feel it is ok to force their views onto others, but as non religous people we have to be respectable to their views.
I would never dream of sending her information on being an athiest.
The OP was talking about "many" religious ppl, not all religious ppl. So when reasons are given, lets just assume that we are talking about some religious ppl, not making a generalisation about "all" religious ppl. Easier to keep it polite that way :) .
Cheers
I think i have ppl thinking i am silly because of my beliefs
ie. how can you believe in God? faith is stupid etc.
I have found some atheists are like that.
As for religous ppl not respecting beliefs, that happens to.
Religion can cause a lot of tension.
Just like over zealous religious and over zealous atheists..
Anyone who disrespects a person and tells them they are wrong for what they think, is rude and disrespectful.
:D :D
Yeah that is what I meant to say!
Loving_mumma
20-07-2006, 16:44
Generalisation is a hard thing that seems to spread like wild fire. Also pushing a belief on to some one is taking away their freedom/ free will.
I have a question.... What do you do if you are wanting to talk to someone you know about your beliefs but you are scared that they might reject you? How do you get around your nerves?
Mister Noodle
20-07-2006, 16:55
I just wait until it comes up in conversation, and then just throw it out there.
I would have to agre with mr noodle.
I don't really talk about my beliefs unless I am asked.
That actually goes with anything as I am very shy!!!:yes:
So I get nervous at the best of times.
Pass along cards are great!;)
I have a friend and we have known each other for about 10 years now. She was raised as a catholic but is a head strong christian now.
Her sister has done a 360 and drifted away from any one particular religion.
My friend cant help herself with some of the comments that she makes. She is a lovely person but when you dont agree or share her view where her religous beliefs are concerned she can have quite the acid tongue.
Both of her parents passed away when she was a teen and she now has just her older brother and sister. Her sister is always going out on a limb for her and her kids but as a result of her sisters lack of belief she returns the favour with 'Your going to hell'.
She just cant accept that if someone dosnt believe in your heaven then they therefore dont believe in your hell so how can they go there?
That aside how could she say such a horrible and hateful thing to and about her sister? Im gobsmackked:eek:
spiritedfamily
26-07-2006, 12:40
She just cant accept that if someone dosnt believe in your heaven then they therefore dont believe in your hell so how can they go there?
That aside how could she say such a horrible and hateful thing to and about her sister? Im gobsmackked:eek:
When people are so angry, its when they need help the most and its also when they fight help the most....if your friend is a strong christian, then she would be aware that these are the times when prayer is the most important thing for her sister... and it means she is handing it over to a more powerful being than herself. Only God can heal hearts, we are a facility for him to heal but ultimately God is the power that changes hearts.
It is also important how much she sacrifices for her sister, especially because she has her own children to nurture and raise. It is a juggle...to get the right balance between the two
Prayer is a challenge = we don't always see immediate results but one never really knows the full impact on another's heart, I guess thats why we say its a leap in faith.
(sorry Almond, I moved your post before I realised I couldn't copy it back :o )
And to answer the OP's question of why religious people have to force their beliefs on non religious people. I think they do this because they've found spiritual comfort in it and would like to share it with you, although sometimes they make it their mission to make you believe. I guess, it's not unlike experiencing a real good cuppa coffee and telling all your friends where you had it. We just tend to be more sensitive I suppose to topics of religion than maybe, culinary delights. Non religious people don't find the need to talk about their views because they really don't care one way or another so why share it with other people. This is, at least, what I think.
And for those who are looking for that scintillating religious discussion that used to be here, check out the new "Could you enjoy heaven..." at http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=33166
Cheers
almond eyes
05-08-2006, 07:33
No worries xkwizit :)
blessedmummy
14-08-2006, 19:53
hey.. yeah.. agree with princess naimah.. we should not force our beliefs onto people cause it can offend and thats not good, so, yeah, for me im a christian, so, i tend to make sure i dont offend anyone.
me25
Dh25:)
Emily3:smiliedance:
CLare22months:smiliedance:
~ElectricPink~
15-08-2006, 13:36
Although I do not consider myself particularly religious now, I turned to religion briefly this year and it really changed who I am inside for the better. I used to live my life as most teenage girls do these days...partying,drinking, and just generally caught up in the wrong crowd. It got to the point where I realised that my life was spiralling out of control, but I felt so trapped in and had no idea where to turn. So I turned to church, and I will always greatful for the inspiration that it gave me to start living life how I should be living it.
The only thing that I hold against religion is the tendency it can bring to be judgemental of others who are not living as they feel is "morally right".
I'm with Mr Noodle on all this!
It's nice that some people find religion comforting and that it gives meaning to their lives etc...........but it ain't for me.
As for the original questions & situation - sad - very sad indeed & sounds more like a severely controlling man - almost bordering on DV - problem, then religion really. If it wasn't religion he used for control & power in their relationship -he'd be using something else....kwim?
I would simply say to my sister "I love you and support you and always will, you are my sister and that will never change......but I will not speak religion with you at all" and when she/they start talking religion, just hang up the phone or walk out or whatever politely saying "I said I wouldn't talk religion with you and I mean it..."
She has clear choices to make and after an initial period of adjustment - she hopefully will get the message. I had a similar situation with a family member (but not over religion I admit) and we didn't really speak for about a year....but then we slowly started getting on again and 15 yrs later - things are fine.
Good luck & hope you can find some middle ground somewhere - although - have to be realistic and realise that often - you can't with people like this, so you may need to accept that things will never be good between you and your sister again (whilst she's with him anyway :( )
Y
I used to be a christian but one reason why my philosophy is different now is b/c I found the converting thing disrespectful. Why should I impose my beliefs on others? Having said that, at my most zealous phase I think I found a lot of security in believing in something and found it really threatening co-existing with those who didn't share my belief or even (gulp!) challenged it. I might be wrong, but I think that feeling comfortable about other people having different ideas to your own is a maturity / security thing.
Little toad, maybe your sister wont be so black-and-white a little later on when she's established her own identity more and is more secure in that and in her relationship with her boyfriend?
Curlz
:smiliedance:
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