View Full Version : What is masculinity anyway?
I've been really interested in all the feminist things going on here but I'd really like to talk about what constitutes masculinity and our male gender roles.
For the most part 'gender' means talking about women, but gender roles impact us men as well.
I think that what is traditionally seen to be masculine gender roles don't seem to me be all that healthy.
So what is masculinity if it's not male dominance?
cheers,
Mike
WorkingClassMum
04-05-2009, 10:24
*bump* - am watching this thread :thumbsup:
bigbadbrad
04-05-2009, 16:12
Hi Mike,
Another interesting post. Masculinity in my opinion are the male things! That is things guys can/are expected to do!
On the forum there are many threads where males are put down, lambasted and generally unliked but in many cases these feelings have been earned by the men in question.
Having said that masculinity is a broad spectrum with Male dominance at one end.
I think Masculinity plays a part in the forum not having lots more male members! You cannot have kids without one of each parent and most forum members have partners but the men in the forum are VASTLY outnumbered by the women.
I think this is because masculinity roles make most men feel that asking questions about parenting is either a sign of weakness or something the women are supposed to do!!
I don't think we can change that overnight but I think that if men where programmed a little more like the women (and vice versa) we would have more men with the moxy to ask questions and/or admit when they do not know something
Perhaps I am not Masculine enough (but I very much doubt it!)
Looking forward to more posts
BBB
Duchessa
04-05-2009, 20:49
Great idea for a thread, Mike. I wish my dh could come and answer it as he has been developing some really good perspectives on masculinity in general and his own, in particular, as a result of our frequent (read never ending) discussions about feminism. As he isn't here, I'll answer for him ;)
He has never really thought much about the macho interpretation of masculinity that our culture promotes with such vigour. He was fortunate to be born with very strong masculine characteristics - broad, tall, strong, imposing, and he has always reaped the benefits of being a white male in a Western patriarchy. You don't question privilege when you have it, and nor do you question violence when it avoids you because you look like you could deck someone with a wave of your hand.
He is gaining a great understanding now, as he reads or at least flicks through all the books I buy re feminism, and recently he read "Getting Off", by Robert Jensen, and nearly nodded his head right off during the chapters about the construction of masculinity - including the part where Jensen suggests that discarding the notion of masculinity all together is the most constructive way forward. There are male feminists out there who write really well about the construction of masculinity and the implications for feminism. It is a really interesting area of feminist exploration.
BBB, this is no surprise, but I cringed a bit when I read your post - masculinity needs to encompass far more than what "guys are expected to do" - we need to change the way we reward masculinity. Guys are expected to rape and bash, to enjoy a good glassing or a footy brawl. These are not behaviours that men should accept as part of the definition of the masculine. Reason and rationality were also traditionally masculine characteristics, yet they have been drowned out by the baying for blood and sex that masculinity now seems to feed on. As responsible HUMANs we all need to send the message that the currant construction of masculinity hurts us all - men, women and children. It would be nice if we could all be humans, filled with humanity, not masculinity or femininity.
One of my friends showed me this article. Pertinent, I thought :)
Resisting Masculinity: The Importance Of Feminism To Men
Robert Jensen
Robert Jensen is a professor in the Department of Journalism at the University of Texas at Austin. First published in ZNet Commentary, February 22, 2002
Feminists hate men. How do we know this? Because it is repeated over and over in the media and by right-wing politicians and other so-called guardians of the moral values of the society.
If feminists hate men, then it stands to reason that men should stay clear of -- or do their best to attack -- feminism and feminists.
I have been involved in feminist politics and scholarship for more than a dozen years. I have known a lot of feminists, many of them radical and many of them lesbians. One thing is true of all the feminists I have known:
None of them hated men.
These women want to hold men accountable for their behavior. They often are critical of patterns in male behavior, especially sexual behavior. They want to change society to eliminate men's violence. But none of them hated me. None of them hated men.
Why not? Because feminism is about the liberation of women, not hating men. And in the liberation of women, feminism offers men a shot at being human beings.
Although men often talk tough and try to be masculine in the way the culture defines it -- competitive, aggressive, dominant. But underneath all that, I believe that most men yearn for something less masculine and more human, for a different way to connect to others and be in the world.
I believe the best route to abandoning masculinity and claiming our humanity is feminism. Men can start by reading what feminists say about feminism. Marilyn Frye's essays on "Oppression" and "Sexism" in THE POLITICS OF REALITY are a good place to begin.
Read also what feminists have to say about men. Andrea Dworkin, a radical feminist writer and activist who has spent her life working against sexual violence, is often portrayed as the most man-hating of feminists.
But listen to what she said to, and about, men when she addressed a men's conference and asked them to work for 24 hours without rape. In her book LETTERS FROM A WAR ZONE, she writes:
"I don't believe rape is inevitable or natural. If I did, I would have no reason to be here. If I did, my political practice would be different than it is. Have you ever wondered why we are not just in armed combat against you? It's not because there's a shortage of kitchen knives in this country. It is because we believe in your humanity, against all the evidence."
Dworkin is called a man-hater not because she hates men but because such slurs are a way to marginalize her work. In that same speech, she went on to challenge men to take responsibility for themselves:
"[Women] do not want to do the work of helping you to believe in your humanity. We cannot do it anymore. We have always tried. We have been repaid with systematic exploitation and systematic abuse. You are going to have to do this yourselves from now on and you know it."
We do know it, and it is time to act on that knowledge, not just for women but for ourselves.
A man puts family needs before his own desires
a man is there to lend a helping hand to friends and family
a man is patient and gentle with children
a man respects his wife/partner by being faithful ad not leering on other peoples bodies
a man uses his physical strength when he has to - to protect his family
a man is brave and courageous
a man is like a port in a storm for his family to shelter with, his big arms and stong shoulders always ready to hold those that are weaker than he to make them feel safe.
a man provides for his family without complaint a man is not miserly with his money
a man will stop and help those less fortunate
a man will listen to his wife, and listen to her above others when it comes to making decisions.
i could go on..:ecomcity:
take the time to watch a father bird/lion/animal and that gives a basic idea of what is expected from a male... then the whole spiritual angle needs addressing too.
sockstealingpoltergeist
05-05-2009, 11:22
Men have been just as influenced by societyaas women. Men are taught from birth what roles they must take in order to fit in.
For example I often hear women on this site say their partners couldn't say no to going to strip club because their friends expected them to.
Feminism helps men because it wants to see all people as human beings and not judge them because they may have a penis or vagina.
I know many men who hide their feelings for fear of being called a whimp or a wuss. I know many men who don't like porn or strip clubs, yet would never say it in front of a group of men for fear of being ridiculed.
I believe feminism would help my son, because I want him to be valued as a person and not judged. I believe it would benifit and enrich his life because he would be able to have much better and more fulfilling relationships with men and women alike.
Men don't just naturally behave in certain ways as we are told they do.
The amount of time I have been told men like to do _________ (you fill in the blank) and that it's a natural behaviour or interest for men, well I can't even count. Men should be free too, and able to form their own ineterests without all sorts of presure from society.
I know of men who have been judged for wanting to be nurses, or child care workers, little boys who have been introuble for playing with dolls, or wearing pink. It all seems ridiculous to me.
bigbadbrad
05-05-2009, 11:30
BBB, this is no surprise, but I cringed a bit when I read your post - masculinity needs to encompass far more than what "guys are expected to do" - we need to change the way we reward masculinity. Guys are expected to rape and bash, to enjoy a good glassing or a footy brawl. These are not behaviours that men should accept as part of the definition of the masculine. Reason and rationality were also traditionally masculine characteristics, yet they have been drowned out by the baying for blood and sex that masculinity now seems to feed on. As responsible HUMANs we all need to send the message that the currant construction of masculinity hurts us all - men, women and children. It would be nice if we could all be humans, filled with humanity, not masculinity or femininity.
Hi Duchessa,
Why is it no surprise? I find your assumptions of my thoughts a little annoying particularly when you go on to confuse masculinity with your perception of how males are expected to behave. Masculinity by definition is male stuff!
Male behaviour is what men are expected to do and again I would strongly disagree with your perception of what men are expected to do!
As a male I certainly do not feel I am expected to rape, bash, glass or brawl. I deplore those activities! I admit feeling very bad for you and anyone who lives within a social group where the male behaviour you described is deemed to be normal!
Male and Female roles are changing all the time and a lot more rapidly then they did in the past. I agree that many negative male behaviours are positively re-inforced (sexism, racism, violence) in some parts of society but would disagree that it is the norm
I would also agree that many men react to 'perceived criticism' from feminists in a non-constructive way. Unfortunately many men still respond agressively to perceived attacks rather than in a controlled way. Having said that I feel strides are being made and while that is easy for me to say given I am male and not having to combat against sexism I am hopeful that it will continue to grow at a faster pace as we go along
Sincerely
BBB
The fact that gender roles are changing rapidly would imply that there is no such thing as "male behaviour", right? That it's a social construct that is subject to societal terms and conditions, to social mores and to influences outside biology?
And incidentally, 'masculinity' isn't the domain of the male. It applies to men, certainly, but but so does femininity. As such, it's just a part of the whole that forms an individual's gender identity and psyche, regardless of whether that individual is male or female or something in between.
Mischief
05-05-2009, 12:02
To me a man who is masculine is strong enough to respect a woman.
I see my husband as masculine, he provides for us, but recognises that I could do the same job of providing for the family. He respects MY decision to NOT work, and lets me make the decision without imposing his own will, trusting that I will make the right decision for our family. OUR family, not HIS, not MINE... OURS!
I have to say that on a personal level I am deeply disturbed that so many of our members seem to believe that a man being masculine equates to his "right" to beat, rape, hurt, etc.
This is a uncalled for and hideous accusation. Masculinity is no different to femininity. I think ANYONE, male or female who bullies, or uses their power for injurious methods is a coward. It doesn't make them less or a man or a woman, it makes them less of a HUMAN!
My husband is someone who would open the door for anyone, male or female. But I get so angry FOR him when he opens the door for a woman and gets glared at as if to say "I could have done that myself" that isn't male domainance, that is courtesy!
In short, Masculinity equals... respect, chivalry, courtesy, kindness, strength to stand up for those who need it, joy in your family, tenderness, providing for your family, etc.
It does NOT equal brutality of any shape or form.
gizmoduckus
05-05-2009, 12:14
To me a man who is masculine is strong enough to respect a woman.
I see my husband as masculine, he provides for us, but recognises that I could do the same job of providing for the family. He respects MY decision to NOT work, and lets me make the decision without imposing his own will, trusting that I will make the right decision for our family. OUR family, not HIS, not MINE... OURS!
I have to say that on a personal level I am deeply disturbed that so many of our members seem to believe that a man being masculine equates to his "right" to beat, rape, hurt, etc.
This is a uncalled for and hideous accusation. Masculinity is no different to femininity. I think ANYONE, male or female who bullies, or uses their power for injurious methods is a coward. It doesn't make them less or a man or a woman, it makes them less of a HUMAN!
My husband is someone who would open the door for anyone, male or female. But I get so angry FOR him when he opens the door for a woman and gets glared at as if to say "I could have done that myself" that isn't male domainance, that is courtesy!
In short, Masculinity equals... respect, chivalry, courtesy, kindness, strength to stand up for those who need it, joy in your family, tenderness, providing for your family, etc.
It does NOT equal brutality of any shape or form.
:yelclap: Great post
bigbadbrad
05-05-2009, 12:19
I also think Mischief's post is Awesome!:yelclap:
BBB
Mrs Nietzsche
05-05-2009, 12:24
I think there may have been a misinterpretation somewhere..... masculinity as our society defines it often does mean that men/boys who are able to beat up other boys, take a hard knock on the footy field, intimidate with their physical presence, and so on, are considered more 'manly' by their peers and society (including women).
Duchessa
05-05-2009, 12:31
Spot on, Maire. It is no secret that masculinity is constructed along the lines of "boys don't cry", "boys are strong like King Kong"... Maculinity and femininity are usually set up as polar extremes, rough/smooth, strong/weak, rational/emotional, sex driven/frigid, hairy/bald, stud/***** etc etc
Both gender stereotypes are damaging for men and women alike, but in particular for women, who bear the brunt of the violent behaviours it creates.
Tam-I-Am
05-05-2009, 12:31
I have to say that on a personal level I am deeply disturbed that so many of our members seem to believe that a man being masculine equates to his "right" to beat, rape, hurt, etc.
I think you've misunderstood, actually. Nobody (to my knowledge) has said that masculinity equals the right to hurt, beat, rape etc. But many of us note that many men - almost all, in our society, in fact - have a sense of ENTITLEMENT. That is, they expect that the women in their lives will behave certain ways, and they expect that they themselves can behave certain ways.
One of the huge myths about masculinity is the entitlement to sex - or failing that, forced sex (ie rape). It's a false construct of our society that men NEED sex, and when they don't get it they just aren't in contrl of their own impulses. It's the excuse for men using pornography behind their partner's backs, against their wishes, and in spite of knowing it will hurt their feelings. It's how many excuse rape - ie, well what was she doing there/wearing that/walking that way etc at that time of the day/night/on that street - ie the implication being that if she aroused a male, then he cannot be held accountable for his actions. She must either give in - or he will force her to. And although many people, including many men, object on a very fundamental basis to this - that's the whole reason why rape and sexual assaults are under-reported and why rapists and sexual criminals are not punished in any way that resembles justice.
The above is just ONE example of the sense of entitlement that men are expected to have and cultivate - that our society cultivates for them. It's everywhere.
It's NOT excusable or acceptable - and that's the whole feminist argument. Men are just as able to control themselves, just as capable of higher reasoning, emotional maturity and empathy, of delayed self-gratification, of selfless acts, etc etc etc as women. And many men are in fact all of the above - but because their role is defined as something quite different to that, it's EXPECTED that they will have a sense of entitlement, that they will have a patricarchal set of 'masculine' values and characteristics. It's this very construction of the masculine (and likewise, what that implies for the construct of the feminine) that feminists loathe and challenge.
In short, Masculinity equals... respect, chivalry, courtesy, kindness, strength to stand up for those who need it, joy in your family, tenderness, providing for your family, etc.
I don't think any of those traits are either masculine or feminine. They are just what they are - I do all of those things but I doubt people would call me masculine. Unless it was intended to insult and imply a butch dykeishness.
Masculinity is, I believe, a socially constructed ideal of behaviour for men, the behaviours themselves arbitrarily allocated and often geared toward aggression. I don't think all men do or should fit within that model.
gizmoduckus
05-05-2009, 12:35
Guys are expected to rape and bash, to enjoy a good glassing or a footy brawl.
Tam-I-Am, I think this is what Mischief was refering to. To say that men expect other men to do this is just wrong. I know my DH for one would never condone this behaviour and I am sure that there are many men out there that would agree.
Mrs Nietzsche
05-05-2009, 12:37
In short, Masculinity equals... respect, chivalry, courtesy, kindness, strength to stand up for those who need it, joy in your family, tenderness, providing for your family, etc.
Unfortunately even this kind of characterisation of masculinity denies a man personhood and places a burden upon him.
What if a man needs someone to stand up for him?
What if he wants to stay at home with his family whilst his partner works?
Is he any less a man?
Can't we all just be people?
They are expected to, aren't they? Isn't that why women often advocate covering up when they are out on the town lest they attract "unwanted attention"?
I don't think Duchessa meant that all men do this but it is what society has taught, what we have learned, what we have internalised. And by do so, what we have passed on to men as expected and accepted behaviour.
Men are by far the most likely perpetrators of violence.in our society - violence against women and violence against men. There is a sense of expectation in it.
Mrs Nietzsche
05-05-2009, 12:40
Guys are expected to rape and bash, to enjoy a good glassing or a footy brawl.
Sure, nobody condones it.
But people aren't *surprised* by it, in a man, particularly a young man.
It's certainly very shocking in a woman though!
And the way that we construct masculinity - to be tough, and have a certain element of aggression, and so on - means that more and more boys find it easy to fall into the extreme end of the spectrum of aggressive behaviour.
How many millions of times do you hear the phrase 'boys will be boys' when they hit each other, or break something, or etc?
why is feminism hailed by members of this board as something wonderful and important... yet masculinity is, by the very same people, deemed imaginary or unimportant?
Masculinity DOES Exist...
the male mind is very different to ours
the male body is very different to ours
masculinity involves huge bursts of testosterone which causes different emotions and feelings that are only experienced by men
Feminism is a movement advocating the equality of women in society. Masculinity isn't the opposite of feminism so it's silly to compare the two.
Masculinity is the opposite of femininity - both social constructs, both arbitrarily defined in terms of the traits.
Chauvinism is the opposite of feminism. And no one believes that is imaginary.
gizmoduckus
05-05-2009, 12:47
Putting down men this way is never going to win you an argument. I think it is extremely sexist (yes women can be sexist against men :eek:)
I don't think anyone here has put men down. And of course women can be sexist - quite often to other women, too.
Did anyone actually read the article Beany posted?
Tam-I-Am
05-05-2009, 12:52
why is feminism hailed by members of this board as something wonderful and important... yet masculinity is, by the very same people, deemed imaginary or unimportant?
Masculinity DOES Exist...
the male mind is very different to ours
the male body is very different to ours
masculinity involves huge bursts of testosterone which causes different emotions and feelings that are only experienced by men
Firstly, the construct of masculinity, and feminism, aren't even....it's comparing apples and oranges. The construct of the masculine is about the characteristics and behaviours that a male person is supposed to have. Feminism is a philosophical belief system based on the notion that woman should be equal to men. They're not comparable.
And secondly, nobody is saying that masculinity is imaginary OR unimportant. What they've said is that our society, as it's set up, boxes people into very narrow and limited classifications based on their genitalia - and that doesn't allow for the huge, and wide, and varied individuality that is the HUMAN experience. Some men are strong. Some a weak. Some are emotional. some are not. Some love romantic movies, a good hot chocolate, and bubble baths. Some men enjoy bourbon and coke, a good footy match, and 3-day-old jocks. You can't point to any one set of characteristics and say 'THAT is masculine'. There is too much individual variance to be able to do that - but that's EXACTLY what our society aims to do.
This isn't about devaluing men. In fact - quite the opposite. It's about saying that men are as capable as women of owning their own behaviour - for being responsible in their own lives and worlds for the impact that they have. ANd at the moment, that's just not the case - NOBODY - not men, not women, not society, not the justice system, not police, NOBODY - expects that of men. And THAT is a HUGE injustice - can you imagine going through YOUR life being told that you were so base, so immature, so.....inhuman! - that you couldn't even control your sexual urges? That's what society says to men!
ETA: Oh, and incidentally - are you aware that most men over the age of 50 have higher oestrogen levels than women? Does that mean that they suddenly all become women? Or that they stop being 'masculine'? Hormones have nothing to do with whether or not a person is able to take responsibility for themselves.
Mischief
05-05-2009, 12:56
Can we please not derail the thread with feminism v's masculinity here?!
The question is "WHAT IS MASCULINITY" not "WHAT IS FEMINISM". There are heaps of threads about that right now, so please... lets keep this one on topic and give some positive information.
misskittyfantastico
05-05-2009, 12:57
Putting down men this way is never going to win you an argument. I think it is extremely sexist (yes women can be sexist against men :eek:)
I don't believe anyone is putting men down?:confused: I'm happily married to a man, have a boy child. I see posters highlighting the fact that masculinity (as with feminity) is a social construct. One that is dangerous to both men AND women.
Growing up in a small country town my son will have a huge number of expectations placed on his shoulders due to this myth that is "masculinity". Thanks be to lilith he (and his sister)have people in their lives that refuse to allow the constructs and constraints of masculinity and femininity to stamp out their right to be a PERSON.
Mrs Nietzsche
05-05-2009, 13:02
Feminism can't be v masculinity - they aren't opposites.
There are loads of pro-feminist mens's movements that are trying to deconstruct masculinity, and help men to 'break free' so to speak from the rigid cutout that society uses to define what a man is.
Femininity and masculinity are 'opposites' - one of them I suppose meaning, being pretty, gentle, motherly, all that stuff - and masculinity meaning being manly, strong, and so on.
Both have the effect of making men and women feel like they have to act a certain way.
I imagine it must be very hard for a man to act in a way that is considered 'unmanly'. (Like being called butch for a woman I suppose).
To answer the OP though.... masculinity for me is pretty meaningless as a 'true' ideal.
I understand what society means by being 'masculine' or being 'manly' though, and I know how hard it makes it for men who don't fit those moulds... and also how it leads to some men taking those ideals to an extreme, which can end in violence and trauma.
gizmoduckus
05-05-2009, 13:03
*throws hands up in the air*
Now I know why everyone else gives up in these threads.
*sigh*
misskittyfantastico
05-05-2009, 13:04
I understand what society means by being 'masculine' or being 'manly' though, and I know how hard it makes it for men who don't fit those moulds... and also how it leads to some men taking those ideals to an extreme, which can end in violence and trauma.
:iagree:
Mrs Nietzsche
05-05-2009, 13:05
I for one was genuinely puzzled on why you would think men were being put down.
I saw it as quite the contrary.:confused:
One of my friends showed me this article. Pertinent, I thought :)
Resisting Masculinity: The Importance Of Feminism To Men
Robert Jensen
Robert Jensen is a professor in the Department of Journalism at the University of Texas at Austin. First published in ZNet Commentary, February 22, 2002
["Feminists hate men. How do we know this? Because it is repeated over and over in the media and by right-wing politicians and other so-called guardians of the moral values of the society."]
The very foundations of this gentlemans argument is deeply flawed.
An intensive scan of media news and current affairs articles has FAILED to discover any statements supporting Mr Jensens statement.
There is no media in the past 10 years in Australia that makes the assertion that "Feminist Hate Men". We are NOT repeatedly told this at all by media.
As for "right-wing politicians and other so-called guardians of of the moral values of society". Wrong again. There is NO record of this in Australia.
Sure some outraged nobodies may have made these comments at sometime - probably at the local pub.
Whilst the article may have some level of accuracy in America - and i personally doubt that too. Its relevance here in Australia is minimal if not insignificant.
As for the question. I agree with Mischief.
Mrs Nietzsche
05-05-2009, 13:09
I am not really sure how the above is relevant to the discussion.
Tam-I-Am
05-05-2009, 13:10
SD: Surely you don't believe that the ONLY way to be told something is to have it said directly? No major news publication may have uttered or printed the words "feminists hate men" verbatim - but the message is certainly clear, ie that feminists are angry, hairy, possibly smelly, man-hating radicals who want to take over the world.
There is no better way to undermine the message that a group of so-called 'radicals' is trying to get across than to discredit the individuals involved.
Guys are expected to rape and bash, to enjoy a good glassing or a footy brawl.
None of my male friends expect me to rape and bash, enjoy a good - or bad - glassing and none of us enjoy any type of brawls. Nor do i expect it of any of my male friends.
You are describing a very rare sub-type or sub- culture Duchessa. It may exist in a very small place somewhere, but certainly not in ANY mainstream society i have lived in.
SD: Surely you don't believe that the ONLY way to be told something is to have it said directly? No major news publication may have uttered or printed the words "feminists hate men" verbatim - but the message is certainly clear, ie that feminists are angry, hairy, possibly smelly, man-hating radicals who want to take over the world.
There is no better way to undermine the message that a group of so-called 'radicals' is trying to get across than to discredit the individuals involved.
Mr Jensen states very clearly in his article that we are told this repeatedly by the media. We are NOT.
His assertion is incorrect. That is what i am talking about.
Mrs Nietzsche
05-05-2009, 13:19
It's still not relevant to the OP
Tam-I-Am
05-05-2009, 13:20
Mr Jensen states very clearly in his article that we are told this repeatedly by the media. We are NOT.
His assertion is incorrect. That is what i am talking about.
Again - this may be true if you believe that the only way that the media can 'tell' us something is by directly uttering and/or printing a phrase verbatim.
This is clearly not the case, as I'm sure you'll agree.
I don't believe his assertions are incorrect. I believe that the media consistently uses nuance of written and spoken language to undermine any feminist message or ideology. You yourself told us in a thread just days ago that feminist hate men. It's a well-known 'fact' - one that the media is very good at conveying.
SuperGranny
05-05-2009, 13:23
hi, in an effort to get back to the op, What is masculinity?? I am not a graduate of uni, I am just a mum and grandma, my opinion, masculinity is the state of being male. That is about as much as I can say. Males in society have had many expectations put on them over the centuries, and in different countries, there are many varients. The roles of male and female are in a state of constant change and are not and never will be set in concrete. I think to make large general statements about the negatives or the positives is a bit foolish. I feel I am not limited to my thinking or to my way of living just because I happen to be female, and I also dont think any male is limited because he is born male. Viva La'difference, Marie.
Mrs Nietzsche
05-05-2009, 13:25
Sometimes I think it would be good in threads if they weren't derailed by nonsensical posts that clearly contradict reality.
To get back to the OP...
I often wonder how best to raise my son. His father is from a pretty macho culture (although very affectionate and loving) - but definitely macho in terms of getting into fights in pubs being condoned and all that. Even my own father was tossing him around a bit the other day to 'make him manly' (said half jokingly).
Duchessa
05-05-2009, 13:33
Fair enough on the various criticism I have received re the sentence
Guys are expected to rape and bash, to enjoy a good glassing or a footy brawl.
I will express myself more thoughtfully this time.
What I meant is in the cases of violence, men are expected to be perpetrators of this violence and both men and women are the victims.
ie here's a couple of headlines from bbc news today, you fill in the blanks, answers below:
(__1__) charged over stabbing death (2 guess the sex of the victim)
(__3__) attacked and raped (4 by a man or a woman, do you think?)
Six held following pub row death (guess the sex __5__)
Three injured in street fight (guess the sex __6__)
1. Man
2. Woman
3. Woman
4. Man
5. Wow, all men!
6. and all men again.
So Solodad, you are wrong, this is not a subculture, this is our mainstream culture. A culture of violence, violence that is usually (nearly always, in fact) perpetrated by men, against both men and women.
That is what the way our culture constructs masculinity has done to our culture.
ETA: here is the link if you want to check http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/default.stm
As others have said, I think masculinity is a nasty little social construct that tries to put men into handy little boxes to be inserted into the capitalist machine.
It does men as much of a disservice as "femininity" does for women.
I believe, as humans, we can behave in any manner of ways - violent, non-violent, compassionate, uncaring, active, passive, creative, analytical etc etc etc.
None of these behaviours should be labelled "masculine" or "feminine" because different people will display them at different times, regardless of gender.
Perhaps - and this is WILD speculation, with no proof or scholarship behind it! - we can identify those who are most damaged by the patriarchy by looking for those who most consistently adhere to "masculine" or "feminine" behaviours. Could these people - the stereotypes - be the individuals who are unable to free themselves from the social construct?
My husband is a engineer. Ridiculously mathematical, analytical, and unaccustomed to letting his emotions rule decisions or behaviour. But he is at his happiest at home, playing with the girls and just being Daddy.
Is he a Master of the Universe, being male, educated, well paid etc? He doesn't think so. I know he stresses about being our sole provider, and that he would give his right arm for the chance to be home fulltime with the girls. Unfortunately, my job pays only a fraction (nearly 50%) of his, so it would be impractical for us given our overheads.
He has also found it difficult to make it REALLY clear at work that he doesn't work long hours, because he has to be home at 6 for dinner with the girls, and that he doesn't travel because he hates to spend nights away from home. He had it written into his work contract when he took his current job, and people STILL ask him if he actually means it. It is considered "strange" that he should WANT to put his family first.
So Solodad, you are wrong, this is not a subculture, this is our mainstream culture. A culture of violence, violence that is usually (nearly always, in fact) perpetrated by men, against both men and women.
That is what the way our culture constructs masculinity has done to our culture.
ETA: here is the link if you want to check http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/default.stm
No i am not wrong Duchessa.
A case in point recently was where a man raped an 80 year old grandmother. It was reported widely in the international media.
But it is not representative of all men. Nor is it representative of many men. It is representative of a minority.
It is representative of a sub-culture of men. Just because the media reports on a crime, does mean or imply that it is rampant or out of control or a true representation of mainstream society.
Duchessa
05-05-2009, 13:46
Oh ok, so all good things like chivalry are cultural phenomena and all the bad stuff, like violence and aggression are subcultural phenomena, of which our culture is not responsible for. Hmmm ok.
Oh ok, so all good things like chivalry are cultural phenomena and all the bad stuff, like violence and aggression are subcultural phenomena, of which our culture is not responsible for. Hmmm ok.
That is a different point entirely Duchessa. You have now changed or enlarged the terms of reference that were your original point not contained in your post.
An example - still relevant to your post is;
A friend of mine owns an hotel. These figures were provided by him to me after researching violence at his hotel.
On a busy night he has approximately 450 males.
97% of fights were started or participated in by males. That is not to say that 97% of males participate in or start fights.
On an average night only 3% of his clientele will participate in a fight or brawl. 97% of these are males.
That 3% is a sub-culture. It is a minority.
misskittyfantastico
05-05-2009, 14:00
Sometimes I think it would be good in threads if they weren't derailed by nonsensical posts that clearly contradict reality.
To get back to the OP...
I often wonder how best to raise my son. His father is from a pretty macho culture (although very affectionate and loving) - but definitely macho in terms of getting into fights in pubs being condoned and all that. Even my own father was tossing him around a bit the other day to 'make him manly' (said half jokingly).
I wonder the same thing, Maire. I do think that the whole manly men, beer drinking, sport loving, women do the child rearin' culture is extrememly stong within rural/farming communities. DH is often on the receiving end of "under the thumb" comments and the uproar of my son being seen in a "girly" coloured nappy (No, it wasn't a feminist statement...it was clean!) was quite surprising - while all said in a jestful tone, the comments were unnerving.
Ana Gram
05-05-2009, 14:10
Rape is not confined to a sub culture of men. Too annoyed to comment further on that topic.
As for the rest, I agree with Jag.
Duchessa
05-05-2009, 14:10
99% of violent crime in Australia is perpetrated by men. That doesn't mean that 99% of Australian men are perpetrators of violent crime. Every one knows that, and at no point did I try to use statistics in such a manner.
But while we are talking statistics, there were 770,000 odd victims of violent crime in Australia in 2005, hardly a subculture is it? Add to that 72,000 cases of sexual assault and that little subculture would have had to have been pretty busy.
My point isn't that all men are violent, it would be extremely foolish to infer that from my posts, the point is that our creation of the masculine encourages and promotes violence. There are other ways to create a masculinity (or better still, let's be done with the creation of polarised gender stereotypes) that don't promote violence and aggression.
I do think that the whole manly men, beer drinking, sport loving, women do the child rearin' culture is extrememly stong within rural/farming communities.
Comparing the population of males in Australia and the population of males within the "rural/farming communities" again supports my statement that it is a sub-culture. A minority of men think this way.
But while we are talking statistics, there were 770,000 odd victims of violent crime in Australia in 2005, hardly a subculture is it? Add to that 72,000 cases of sexual assault and that little subculture would have had to have been pretty busy.
Statistically that is a sub-culture.
It is not representative of the greater population of males. It represents a minority.
Rape is not confined to a sub culture of men. Too annoyed to comment further on that topic.
Rape IS confined to a sub-culture of men.
A minority of men commit rapes.
Ana Gram
05-05-2009, 14:27
Rape IS confined to a sub-culture of men.
A minority of men commit rapes.
Just because you insist it is, doesn't make it so.
As a woman who has been raped, I know all too well the attitude of society about rape. This is something you cannot know.
Duchessa
05-05-2009, 14:29
With so many subcultures of violence, imagine what would happen if their edges merged!! OMGZ!! Mainstream violence inherent in the system!!11!
10% of Australian women reported being in a violent relationship within 12 months of a recent study. That is a lot of men. I'm sorry, figures like that are indicative of a mainstream cultural phenomena. I heartily and thoroughly disagree with you and feel that you are deliberately refusing to see a point.
Just because you insist it is, doesn't make it so.
As a woman who has been raped, I know all too well the attitude of society about rape. This is something you cannot know.
I am sorry for what happened to you Chellegoth.
However when known statistics of rape are added to any of the research by womens organisations about unrecorded instances of rape...it is still committed by a minority. And a very small minority at that.
That is a sub-culture.
For you or anyone else to assert that the majority of males are rapists is incorrect, unreasonable and in fact offensive to all males.
sockstealingpoltergeist
05-05-2009, 14:36
Rape IS confined to a sub-culture of men.
A minority of men commit rapes.
Could you provide some stats please?
Rapes and sexual assults are so comman that they are the majority of the time never even reported.
Minority No, majority No. Some where in between Yes.
With so many subcultures of violence, imagine what would happen if their edges merged!! OMGZ!! Mainstream violence inherent in the system!!11!
10% of Australian women reported being in a violent relationship within 12 months of a recent study. That is a lot of men. I'm sorry, figures like that are indicative of a mainstream cultural phenomena. I heartily and thoroughly disagree with you and feel that you are deliberately refusing to see a point.
I do see your point Duchessa.
But i am deliberately choosing to disagree with it because it is wrong.
10% of the population is still a minority. Those 10% are NOT representative of the majority.
Hence...MOST men are good. Not bad.
Mrs Nietzsche
05-05-2009, 14:38
Look I will probably get another infraction for this but can't certain posts just be ignored?
THey really don't contribute in any kind of constructive way and I think it's pretty obvious that some posts are just designed to be argumentative.
It's sad to see threads wrecked again and again.
sockstealingpoltergeist
05-05-2009, 14:41
I am sorry for what happened to you Chellegoth.
However when known statistics of rape are added to any of the research by womens organisations about unrecorded instances of rape...it is still committed by a minority. And a very small minority at that.
That is a sub-culture.
For you or anyone else to assert that the majority of males are rapists is incorrect, unreasonable and in fact offensive to all males.
Who said majority? It's not a mojority, it's not a small minority either. Almost every single woman I know has either been
In a physicaly abusive relationship
In a mentaly abusive relationship
Raped
Asulted
Molested
Beaten
Intimidated by men
There are quite a few men out there who think it's the norm and masculine and accepted to treat women as second class citizens.
bigbadbrad
05-05-2009, 14:44
I agree with Marie.
PLEASE STOP TALKING TO ONE PERSON AND TALK TO EVERYONE!
The forum is not for one person or another it is for EVERYONE!
So if you do not like a post or disagree strongly with a post then say so but please NO MORE PERSONAL ATTACKS.
Remember to stay on topic!
Regards
BBB
Mrs Nietzsche
05-05-2009, 14:46
(I admit of course I have been provoked into argument myself, which is why I begin to see how futile/manipulative it is).
sockstealingpoltergeist
05-05-2009, 14:47
No.
You can look for them yourself. I am not quoting from stats.
I would be interested if you could find statistics that support any of the above claims that rape is a mainstream activity.
Or that the majority of men are rapists.
You are hilarious, I for one am sick of providing stats to you and seeing others do so as well, only to have never address the evidence or to dismiss it because it suits your agenda.
Of course I can find stats that support my post. I tend to read up on facts then comment, i wouldn't want to look like I don't know what I'm talking about.
And before any one says anything about insinuations about all men being rapists and abusers, If I reallly believed that I wouldn't be married, or have contact with men at all. I know that men can be wonderful and I have faith in the ability of all humans to treat others with kindness and humanity. If I didn't then I wouldn't even bother parenting my children, because i would think they were doomed.
MoreKisses
05-05-2009, 14:47
Unlike a lot of people on here, I am not backed up by statistics or will defend or fight my opion. My opinion is just that, my opinion and that is all.
I think all of the masculinity and feminism comes down to each individual and also what society has created.
It is in some ways similar to the waxing/hair removal topic. Society has influenced what is normal and ok.
My DH is regularly told 'you're not a man' because he has no interest in sport... even from women. Whats wrong with not liking sport?
In the same way (in another post), porn has been made 'acceptable' because that is just a case of 'boys will be boys'. And all too often, it is women, as much as men, who endorse this kind of behaviour (and want their son to be 'toughen up' by dad/granddad) and encourgage them to participate in aggressive behaviour. My mother always did the same with my step-brother and he is now (still at age 35) the typical aggressive male who feels he can only be 'a man' by beating other males up. :(
At the footy you see families together screaming obscenities at the players infront of the kids and it is ok because that is just 'part of the game.' Or the women you read about who have giant orgies with the footy players just to say they have been with manly footy players.
I am sick of defending my husbands 'masculinity' just because he doesn't follow sport, or go to the strippers or do other stupid 'male' behaviour. And sad to say... all too often it is from women who love the 'manly man'.
Yet those 'manly men' can't service the car or fix a door that fallen or any of the other things that I consider to be a mans job (my dad and DH are tradies though, so that might explain why I believe that stereotype).
It is not just men who need to take responsibility. At the end of the day, women need to see the faults as well and deal with them and not encourage this male/boys will be boys/aggressive culture that now exists.
If we discourage our children from a young age, at least the next generation will be somewhat better off.
Duchessa
05-05-2009, 14:49
Hence...MOST men are good. Not bad.
I don't think this is a discussion about whether or not men are good or bad. It is about "masculinity" which is very different to "men".
Phyllis Stein
05-05-2009, 14:49
Masculinity is a social construction, made up of various myths, symbols and archetypes. When people accept it uncritically, it comes to be seen as the norm. Some of the myths are that men are naturally aggressive, dominant in relationships, less emotional and empathetic, are competitive, aren't good at nurturing, have sexual "needs", enjoy watching and participating in violence. Some of the symbols of masculinity include swords, guns, bullets, torpedoes, bombs, tribalism, sky-scrapers, sports, stereotypically aggressive animals - bulls, bears etc. Some archetypes include King, warrior, villain, lover etc. Some combination of these elements form the basic foundations of our identity as male/ female, from the day we are born. My FIL referred to my 6 week old son as a "brute" for instance.
Oh, and masculinity typically constructs women as "conquests", not people. That is, masculine identity is validated by how many women one can dominate.
Of course, men also learn morality and ethics from their family and society, and these often conflict with the overt construction of masculinity they absorb. How these conflict, which are privileged etc, is a product of that individual's personality, insight and experiences. So of course not all men rape, because they've been taught, at least superficially, that rape is "wrong". But sometimes the veneer of morality is simply too thin, and excesses stemming from masculinity escape - the bullying sociopath at work, the boyfriend rapist, the husband who feels entitled to demand his wife cook/ clean/ have sex at his whim.
I like this quote, from feminist writer, Andrea Dworkin.
Men are rewarded for learning the practice of violence in virtually any sphere of activity by money, admiration, recognition, respect, and the genuflection of others honoring their sacred and proven masculinity. In male culture, police are heroic and so are outlaws; males who enforce standards are heroic and so are those who violate them.
And
Institutionalised in sports, the military, acculturated sexuality, the history and mythology of heroism, violence is taught to boys until they becomes its advocates.
Ana Gram
05-05-2009, 14:50
You are right BigBadBrad and Maire.
The topis of rape is something that is quite a personal subject for me and it is difficult to hold back when someone is making remarks about something they clearly know very little about.
Might I suggest, that all the rape talk is edited out as much of what has been said is pretty offensive and hurtful to women who have been raped. And that is coming from me, and I am pretty tough to rile.
Duchessa
05-05-2009, 14:52
Rape MAY be part of our culture. But i am not educated in "culture", nor do i have any qualifications in that area, so i cannot comment on the validity of that statement.
But rape is committed by a very small percentage of men. A minority in my opinion.
And a minority is a subculture. It fits all the definitions of a sub-culture Duchessa.
Masculinity is a cultural construction. The mainstream production of masculinity results in violent behaviours like assault and rape. Rape and assault the products of mainstream culture.
Mrs Nietzsche
05-05-2009, 14:54
There has probably been a thread in the past on raising boys.
I myself would be interested in reading any feminist books/articles on how best to raise boys.... specifics preferably not just 'raised to respect others' etc.
how do you counteract the dominant male culture that glorifies sport / aggression/ sexual conquests and whatnot?
Note - I have no problem at all with sport. But it is just so awful to see again and agaain in the news reports of sportsmen, particularly young footballers, being arrested for sexual assault/ brawling/ and so on.
How best do you raise a boy to prioritise his personhood over his gender?
I feel slightly more qualified to answer that question for my daughter, because I guess I am more attuned to the influences, and of course she has *cough* my example. Will it work the same way for a boy though?
MoreKisses
05-05-2009, 14:59
Masculinity is a social construction, made up of various myths, symbols and archetypes. When people accept it uncritically, it comes to be seen as the norm. Some of the myths are that men are naturally aggressive, dominant in relationships, less emotional and empathetic, are competitive, aren't good at nurturing, have sexual "needs", enjoy watching and participating in violence. Some of the symbols of masculinity include swords, guns, bullets, torpedoes, bombs, tribalism, sky-scrapers, sports, stereotypically aggressive animals - bulls, bears etc. Some archetypes include King, warrior, villain, lover etc. Some combination of these elements form the basic foundations of our identity as male/ female, from the day we are born. My FIL referred to my 6 week old son as a "brute" for instance.
Oh, and masculinity typically constructs women as "conquests", not people. That is, masculine identity is validated by how many women one can dominate.
Of course, men also learn morality and ethics from their family and society, and these often conflict with the overt construction of masculinity they absorb. How these conflict, which are privileged etc, is a product of that individual's personality, insight and experiences. So of course not all men rape, because they've been taught, at least superficially, that rape is "wrong". But sometimes the veneer of morality is simply too thin, and excesses stemming from masculinity escape - the bullying sociopath at work, the boyfriend rapist, the husband who feels entitled to demand his wife cook/ clean/ have sex at his whim.
:iagree: Society has made most of this stuff 'acceptable' and the norm
Phyllis Stein
05-05-2009, 15:13
To me masculinity has nothing to do with violence, rape or abuse of women in any shape or form. I believe that the majority of masculine (& feminine) men agree. That is my opinion.
Uber-masculinity is akin to racism, white supremacism, biological determinism, eugenics, anti-semitism. It constructs a certain normality around maleness that asserts dominance and power over all other classes, particularly women.
No, not all who imbibe it take it to it's logical conclusion - violence and rape - as it is mediated or contradicted by other messages within our culture. I don't wish to settle for mere luck in ensuring that the men I interact with won't exhibit the destructive elements of masculinity. I think women deserve more than that, quite honestly. Either we as a society pursue rabid authoritarianism to constrain masculinity or we reject it altogether.
sockstealingpoltergeist
05-05-2009, 15:18
There has probably been a thread in the past on raising boys.
I myself would be interested in reading any feminist books/articles on how best to raise boys.... specifics preferably not just 'raised to respect others' etc.
how do you counteract the dominant male culture that glorifies sport / aggression/ sexual conquests and whatnot?
Note - I have no problem at all with sport. But it is just so awful to see again and agaain in the news reports of sportsmen, particularly young footballers, being arrested for sexual assault/ brawling/ and so on.
How best do you raise a boy to prioritise his personhood over his gender?
I feel slightly more qualified to answer that question for my daughter, because I guess I am more attuned to the influences, and of course she has *cough* my example. Will it work the same way for a boy though?
That's a really good question, and I really don't know either.:(
I guess acknowledging it exists is very important, because at least then you can see the influence and have an open diologue with your son.
I also worry about how rejecting masculinity and femininity would impare our children socialy etc. We all understand that our children are going to want to fit in to society so to speak.
I guess I have been lucky so far in that my daughter has rejected many feminine traits and seems very aware of some influences. I sometimes feel it's easier for girls to be (and for lack of a better word) "tomb boyish" in that they can identify with and embrace some masculine traits (as long as they don't adopt too many) and it doesn't disadvantage her too much. However because feminine traits are seen as "less then" males are often loathe to embrace them, even when they are of interest to them or suit the personality of the male.
wel built and sexy, dark hair dark eyes and must do some form or martial arts (preferably kick boxing), must work be a trades men or a police man, drink beer and ride motocross, now that masculin :confused: oh and having a trophy wife
Oh no wait sory that stereotypeing and as always its SO OFF the mark that its not even funny
masculin in my opinion is a man that is comfortable with his own sexuality and is man enough to be him self, weather it be working on a building site or home with the kids, or being a waiter or dancer what ever that may be, as long as they are comfortable in there own self.
bigbadbrad
05-05-2009, 15:23
There have been a couple of posts here that have distressed me somewhat.
I am ashamed that some of you have entire groups where violence is a regular, and worse, an accepted part of life THIS IS WRONG!
I feel for ANYONE who has been the victum of any violence, particularly rape!
But here is the rub/conumdrum not only do I feel strongly that these situations should not occur/exist but I feel I would protect anyone I know to prevent them being treated in that way. Violently if neccessary!
Is that masculinity or a moral imperative?
I think masculinity is blamed for many ills when there are a significant number of factors that determine what a person says and does.
A person is defined by their actions, rich or poor, man or women, smart or clueless, etc. If you are a good person you are a good person. nothing else matters!
Regards
BBB
There have been a couple of posts here that have distressed me somewhat.
I am ashamed that some of you have entire groups where violence is a regular, and worse, an accepted part of life THIS IS WRONG!
I feel for ANYONE who has been the victum of any violence, particularly rape!
But here is the rub/conumdrum not only do I feel strongly that these situations should not occur/exist but I feel I would protect anyone I know to prevent them being treated in that way. Violently if neccessary!
Is that masculinity or a moral imperative?
I think masculinity is blamed for many ills when there are a significant number of factors that determine what a person says and does.
A person is defined by their actions, rich or poor, man or women, smart or clueless, etc. If you are a good person you are a good person. nothing else matters!
Regards
BBB
Good question. I think it is moral imperative.
In the course of my work i have had to use 'controlled aggression and/or controlled violence' to defend an innocent person. (male, female and child)
I agree with the rest of your post. My feelings exactly.
Looshkin
05-05-2009, 15:29
I don't understand the concept of masculine, because to me each society or group will give words their own meaning, to me it is a defunct and out of date word that actually has no relevance or meaning, it may as well be a latin word that I don't understand.
Thats the weird thing about words,we make them unique to our understanding and experience.
Duchessa
05-05-2009, 15:34
Critically looking at the way in which masculinity encourages violence is not saying that men are violent. We live in a violent culture and part of the reason for that is the way in which we train men to it. Men get picked on because the overwhelming majority of perpetrators of violence are men. Sure there are factors such as drugs and alcohol at play, but they only disinhibit the preexisting propensity.
Here are some points about violence from a report recently published by the Aust Gov's Australian Institute of Criminology
Norms of behaviour
In general, the orientation of a culture, or the shared beliefs within a sub-culture help define the limits of tolerable behaviour. To the extent that a society values violence, attaches prestige to violent conduct, or defines violence as normal or legitimate or functional behaviour, the values of individuals within that society will develop accordingly.
The use of violence to achieve ends perceived as legitimate is a principle deeply embedded in Australian culture. Violence on the sporting field, in the home and in schools is tolerated by many Australians.
...
Men are at least ten times more likely than women to be charged with violent offences, which indicates a real sex-based difference in behaviour, whether due to actual gender or to behavioural expectations arising from gender.
...
Attitudes of gender inequality are deeply embedded in Australian culture, and both rape and domestic assault can be viewed as violent expressions of this cultural norm.
Changing our culture, our construction of masculinity would help to redress this.
I don't understand the concept of masculine, because to me each society or group will give words their own meaning, to me it is a defunct and out of date word that actually has no relevance or meaning, it may as well be a latin word that I don't understand.
Thats the weird thing about words,we make them unique to our understanding and experience.
I agree. Being slightly older than some of the people posting i have seen many changes in society's attitudes and expectations of the roles of males.
I'm not sure, but i feel that there has also been a slight shift in defining masculinity also. Or maybe that should read a greater understanding of what masculinity is.
I know when i first saw Mikes post, i thought what a great question. But how do i answer it.
Changing our culture, our construction of masculinity would help to redress this.
I agree, i think that is a very good point.
Hopefully the greater and increasing influence of females in the raising, education and guidance of males might bring this about.
Looshkin
05-05-2009, 15:44
I agree. Being slightly older than some of the people posting i have seen many changes in society's attitudes and expectations of the roles of males.
I'm not sure, but i feel that there has also been a slight shift in defining masculinity also. Or maybe that should read a greater understanding of what masculinity is.
I know when i first saw Mikes post, i thought what a great question. But how do i answer it.
Maybe I'm ignorant to history and past experiences and stereotypes..
Maybe I was brought up only use language specific to what I am describing..
I don't know.. Maybe it's because I have friends that are male, wear makeup.. wear skirts.. and don't get called f#g or whatever because it's actually pretty normalised.. and women that wear boots and have mohawks the same as the men... I don't know, are my friends androgynous because they all have similar qualities.. or are they just people who don't obsess on gender, because until I looked into it.. and looked into the bigger picture outside of this small community, started watching telly, and being a part of a bigger community did I realise an obsession with defining the sexes..with more than just physical characteristics like facial hair or breasts... yanno - blue for boys and pink for girls. It's all very weird.
eta: yes I am obviously very naive and think I started deleting anything I didn't like the concept of.
Maybe I'm ignorant to history and past experiences and stereotypes..
Maybe I was brought up only use language specific to what I am describing..
I don't know.. Maybe it's because I have friends that are male, wear makeup.. wear skirts.. and don't get called f#g or whatever because it's actually pretty normalised.. and women that wear boots and have mohawks the same as the men... I don't know, are my friends androgynous because they all have similar qualities.. or are they just people who don't obsess on gender, because until I looked into it.. and looked into the bigger picture outside of this small community, started watching telly, and being a part of a bigger community did I realise an obsession with defining the sexes..with more than just physical characteristics like facial hair or breasts... yanno - blue for boys and pink for girls. It's all very weird.
Good questions Zeltronica. Personally i think your friends sound like fun people.
I read the same paper. In its entirety.
It does say that violence is deeply embedded.
But the statistics used to support that paper still demonstrate that violent crimes are committed by a SMALL percentage of the entire population of males. That is still a minority.
Also while violence is deeply embedded in Australian culture. That doesn't assert that it applies to the majority.
Please read the references and research that went into that paper. None of it stated that violence by males was pervasive to, or committed by a majority of males.
Phyllis Stein
05-05-2009, 15:58
I don't understand the concept of masculine, because to me each society or group will give words their own meaning, to me it is a defunct and out of date word that actually has no relevance or meaning, it may as well be a latin word that I don't understand.
Thats the weird thing about words,we make them unique to our understanding and experience.
Masculinity is the term for the expectations and norms applied to males in a society. It refers to gender, not biological sex. That will most definitely be different across geography and time.
Maybe I'm ignorant to history and past experiences and stereotypes..
Maybe I was brought up only use language specific to what I am describing..
I don't know.. Maybe it's because I have friends that are male, wear makeup.. wear skirts.. and don't get called f#g or whatever because it's actually pretty normalised.. and women that wear boots and have mohawks the same as the men... I don't know, are my friends androgynous because they all have similar qualities.. or are they just people who don't obsess on gender, because until I looked into it.. and looked into the bigger picture outside of this small community, started watching telly, and being a part of a bigger community did I realise an obsession with defining the sexes..with more than just physical characteristics like facial hair or breasts... yanno - blue for boys and pink for girls. It's all very weird.
eta: yes I am obviously very naive and think I started deleting anything I didn't like the concept of.
I think post-modernism (which would have been an influence on the culture of the group you mention) has given people more "room to move" than they had previously. Unfortunately, it's been inadequate in entirely eliminating gender based stereotypes.
Tam-I-Am
05-05-2009, 16:00
Also while violence is deeply embedded in Australian culture. That doesn't assert that it applies to the majority.
That's a contradiction in terms.
If something is embedded deeply in the Australian culture, then it applies to those within the Australian culture. It must, by definition, apply to the majority.
Duchessa
05-05-2009, 16:03
I have not once suggested that the majority commit violence. It is you that is equating majority with culture and minority with subculture. If you read back over our posts I have only posed that violence is inherent in our culture, not that the majority are committing it. You have been in a state of denial that violence, as exhibited by rape and assault statistics, is part of our mainstream culture.
That's a contradiction in terms.
If something is embedded deeply in the Australian culture, then it applies to those within the Australian culture. It must, by definition, apply to the majority.
No. Sorry Tam-I-Am. But that it not the meaning of the word embedded.
It means that it is set firmly and deeply in a surrounding mass.
I do agree that violence exists in our society and it is a characteristic that is inherent in our society.
Duchessa
05-05-2009, 16:12
It means that it is set firmly and deeply in a surrounding mass.
If you had have continued reading your dic, you would have gone on to read this bit:
• figurative implant (an idea or feeling) within something else so it becomes an ingrained or essential characteristic of it : the Victorian values embedded in Tennyson's poetry.
Tam-I-Am
05-05-2009, 16:14
No. Sorry Tam-I-Am. But that it not the meaning of the word embedded.
It means that it is set firmly and deeply in a surrounding mass.
Yes. Thank you for that dictionary definition - I'm sure you googled well to find it. :) And you're absolutely correct, of course. Violence is deeply embedded in our culture. Violence is set firmly and deeply into the mass - the mass being the majority.
You have been in a state of denial that violence, as exhibited by rape and assault statistics, is part of our mainstream culture.
No.
I agree that violence and rape and assault by males is a part of mainstream Australian culture.
It is to what EXTENT (large or small) that i have been discussing.
I'm sorry if i haven't been clear previously about that.
Violence is deeply embedded in our culture. Violence is set firmly and deeply into the mass - the mass being the majority.
That's correct. But to what extent? I do not believe that the majority of males are violent or aggressive. That is my opinion.
Looshkin
05-05-2009, 16:21
Masculinity is the term for the expectations and norms applied to males in a society. It refers to gender, not biological sex. That will most definitely be different across geography and time.
I think post-modernism (which would have been an influence on the culture of the group you mention) has given people more "room to move" than they had previously. Unfortunately, it's been inadequate in entirely eliminating gender based stereotypes.
So you mean, if someone else commented that it is weird that I'm the one that mows the lawn and fixes stuff around the house, because I'm better at it/hate it less and my partner is the one that washes up, does the laundry and sews the patches/makes patches onto and for our clothes and jackets.. because he hates it less and is better at it :p
How do you suggest we change thinking and opinions on a large scale? Because for me the less of an issue is made of it, the better.. like I said the only time I started to really become aware of the extremes and obsession was when I opened my eyes and actually took notice.. But I have admitted being a total weirdo, perhaps I am so engrossed in my own thoughts I have failed to recognise reality or something.
seriously it seems we have become so used to being spoon fed what to think and say and do from TV, that we are just a reflection of telly... so maybe when advertising and telly changes so will we.
Duchessa
05-05-2009, 16:21
Statistically that is a sub-culture.
It is not representative of the greater population of males. It represents a minority.
Comparing the population of males in Australia and the population of males within the "rural/farming communities" again supports my statement that it is a sub-culture. A minority of men think this way.
Rape IS confined to a sub-culture of men.
A minority of men commit rapes.
However when known statistics of rape are added to any of the research by womens organisations about unrecorded instances of rape...it is still committed by a minority. And a very small minority at that.
That is a sub-culture.
I'm really sorry I misunderstood you, Solodad. I'll try to read your posts more closely in future :thumbsup:
Tam-I-Am
05-05-2009, 16:21
That's correct. But to what extent? I do not believe that the majority of males are violent or aggressive. That is my opinion.
An opinion shared by all in this thread, to date. Again, you (deliberately?) misconstrue meaning. Nobody - least of all me - has said that the majority of men are violent. Only that our current systematic conceptualisation of masculinity creates a culture in which it is accepted - and acceptable - that men are violent.
Mrs Nietzsche
05-05-2009, 16:36
If something is 'embedded in our culture' it doesn't mean that a majority perpetrate that act. IT means that it's part of our culture, accepted, condoned, overlooked, etc.
For example - binge drinking is also a part of Austrlaian culture.
This does not mean a majority of Australians binge drink.
It means that everybody knows about it... is affected by it... maybe they see binge drinkers on the streets on a regular basis... maybe one of their relatives is a binge drinker.. they might hear binge drinkers walking past the front of their house on a weekend and take steps to prevent them causiing damage.... they know to avoid binge drinkers ..... maybe they had a phase in their life when they were a binge drinker... maybe they are a binge drinker even now on occasions.
Etc.
Replace 'binge drinker' with 'violent person/ acts of violence' and you will get it.
Phyllis Stein
05-05-2009, 17:17
So you mean, if someone else commented that it is weird that I'm the one that mows the lawn and fixes stuff around the house, because I'm better at it/hate it less and my partner is the one that washes up, does the laundry and sews the patches/makes patches onto and for our clothes and jackets.. because he hates it less and is better at it :p
How do you suggest we change thinking and opinions on a large scale? Because for me the less of an issue is made of it, the better.. like I said the only time I started to really become aware of the extremes and obsession was when I opened my eyes and actually took notice.. But I have admitted being a total weirdo, perhaps I am so engrossed in my own thoughts I have failed to recognise reality or something.
seriously it seems we have become so used to being spoon fed what to think and say and do from TV, that we are just a reflection of telly... so maybe when advertising and telly changes so will we.
I probably won't explain this very well, my thinky thing appears to be having a day off today. :p But I'll give it a go.
Firstly, I think gender stereotyping is far more pervasive than indicated by the experiences you referred to. It's true that women can do many more traditionally "masculine" tasks without anyone blinking an eye, but there's a long way to go before men can act more "feminine" without sanction and ridicule. Also, as long as those tasks are still thought of as "masculine" or "feminine" at all, then gender is still entrenched - people might be allowed to transgress its boundaries, but they are still seen as going against a norm.
As for whether the norm is still maintained, a cursory glance at the shelves of the nearest toy store, or just about any ad on commercial television will tell you that the amount of non-gendered product available is very, very small, whereas overtly masculine or feminine product forms the overwhelming majority. That indicates to me that freedom to express our identity as we please is still majorly lacking, that dominant constructions of masculinity and femininity are still being reinforced as the 'norm'.
And as for what to do about it, well, feminists are doing it. :) I think many people would prefer not to hear about it, it's human nature I guess. Thankfully, feminism is often unapologetically loud. While people can be quite hostile to its message at first, I've found that a lot of it actually does sink in, gives them another way to interpret their experiences, etc. It makes too much sense to completely dismiss. :p
Of course, there are all manner of legislative changes that could help, too, but IMO, they're co-dependent with the general consciousness-raising efforts that feminists help promote.
I'm really sorry I misunderstood you, Solodad. I'll try to read your posts more closely in future :thumbsup:
Hey that's ok...no problem.
Nobody - least of all me - has said that the majority of men are violent.
That's great. Then we agree.
If something is 'embedded in our culture' it doesn't mean that a majority perpetrate that act. IT means that it's part of our culture, accepted, condoned, overlooked, etc.
I disagree Maire. My interpretation of "embedded in our culture" doesn't mean that it is accepted or condoned by others. Only by the participants and a very few others.
It may mean that it's part of our culture and possibly overlooked. But i am just not sure to what extent.
Violence is a part of our culture. Violence is embedded in our culture.
But in my opinion it is a minority. Not a majority.
Mrs Nietzsche
05-05-2009, 17:53
My interpretation of "embedded in our culture" doesn't mean that it is accepted or condoned by others. Only by the participants and a very few others.
Sadly you are in a minority on this one.
Mrs Nietzsche
05-05-2009, 17:58
Anyway I was reading my ABA magazine the other day, and there was some pictures of young girls (3 etc) play-breastfeeding thier dolls.
I was wondering what I would do if my son ever did that? I felt quite sad for him.
If you bring up boys and girls in a really uni-sex way... what happens should those kinds of situations arise?
How much of a gender role does there need to be?
Sadly you are in a minority on this one.
That's okay Maire. The crowd isn't always right.
Unfortunately, it's been inadequate in entirely eliminating gender based stereotypes.
It is going to be even harder to eradicate entirely Phyllis if the latest studies from the University of Bonn are correct.
I posted a thread in Dads Chat about new research published in the Behavioural Brain Research Journal.
Tam-I-Am
05-05-2009, 18:04
Violence is embedded in our culture.
But in my opinion it is a minority. Not a majority.
That's a completely oxymoron. I thought we'd been through this.
Phyllis Stein
05-05-2009, 18:06
But in my opinion it is a minority. Not a majority.
The threat of male-perpetrated violence is everywhere. It's so thick in our culture, it's positively stifling. Women learn to change their appearance, to avoid certain areas, to act in certain ways, to watch what they say, who they look at, at all times, because the threat of that violence is so pervasive, yet normalised into invisibility. It's acceptable to tell a woman to change her behaviour or appearance fundamentally to keep 'safe', it appears unacceptable for us as a society to hold the patterns of male violence up for scrutiny, to refuse to tolerate the underlying misogyny in our culture that enables that violence.
One thing I've learned through living as a female, speaking with female friends and family over my lifetime, is that every single one of them has been the victim of some form of male perpetrated violence at some point in their life. This does not occur in a vacuum, these are not random psychopaths hurting women and children. If a majority of women are being damaged by violence, then of course it is a widely accepted aspect of our culture.
Anyway I was reading my ABA magazine the other day, and there was some pictures of young girls (3 etc) play-breastfeeding thier dolls.
I was wondering what I would do if my son ever did that? I felt quite sad for him.
If you bring up boys and girls in a really uni-sex way... what happens should those kinds of situations arise?
How much of a gender role does there need to be?
I've seen boy-children 'breastfeeding' toys. It doesn't last long as we are biologically determined to pick up our behavioural traits from the same-sex parent so if dad isn't breastfeeding (there are some milkmen out there), that particular play behaviour just falls out of their loop.
I think the normalisation of breastfeeding demonstrated by the play of children is very encouraging :yes:
I don't think we need to worry about raising children in a unisex way, really. We just let them be and do as they are naturally inclined (within limits, of course) and encourage them to question societal norms themselves.
RedPanda
05-05-2009, 18:12
I agree Beany. My son used to breastfeed when I breastfed his brother. If he was doing it at 14, I'd be concerned about his knowledge of biology, but I don't think gender differences need to come into things like that.
I saw the same pictures. Very cute!
The threat of male-perpetrated violence is everywhere. It's so thick in our culture, it's positively stifling. Women learn to change their appearance, to avoid certain areas, to act in certain ways, to watch what they say, who they look at, at all times, because the threat of that violence is so pervasive, yet normalised into invisibility. It's acceptable to tell a woman to change her behaviour or appearance fundamentally to keep 'safe', it appears unacceptable for us as a society to hold the patterns of male violence up for scrutiny, to refuse to tolerate the underlying misogyny in our culture that enables that violence.
One thing I've learned through living as a female, speaking with female friends and family over my lifetime, is that every single one of them has been the victim of some form of male perpetrated violence at some point in their life. This does not occur in a vacuum, these are not random psychopaths hurting women and children. If a majority of women are being damaged by violence, then of course it is a widely accepted aspect of our culture.
Phyllis i agree with almost all of what you are saying. I'll even add that a majority of men have been the victim of male perpetrated violence at some point in their life.
But i disagree that it is a "widely accepted" aspect of our culture.
I don't hang out with any elite or strange groups of males and yet almost none of them accept or condone violence against men or women.
Nor do i exist in some rarified state.
But i accept that you have your opinion and respect your right to that opinion. But that respect 'should' or could go both ways.
PS: Perhaps you might recall the school bully? Well in my experience that one person 'bullied' a lot of people. Therefore a lot of people at my school experienced bullying. But by a very small minority.
sockstealingpoltergeist
05-05-2009, 18:23
And as for what to do about it, well, feminists are doing it. :) I think many people would prefer not to hear about it, it's human nature I guess. Thankfully, feminism is often unapologetically loud. While people can be quite hostile to its message at first, I've found that a lot of it actually does sink in, gives them another way to interpret their experiences, etc. It makes too much sense to completely dismiss. :p
Of course, there are all manner of legislative changes that could help, too, but IMO, they're co-dependent with the general consciousness-raising efforts that feminists help promote.
:yelclap::yes::iagree:
I'll never understand why women have to be apologetic or quietly feminist.:confused:
Phyllis Stein
05-05-2009, 18:24
I don't hang out with any elite or strange groups of males and yet almost none of them accept or condone violence against men or women.
a) It's an implicit acceptance.
b) If they don't accept it, what do they do about it?
Mrs Nietzsche
05-05-2009, 18:26
Even things like ... the more violent a football match is expected to be, the more people will watch it.
a) It's an implicit acceptance.
b) If they don't accept it, what do they do about it?
No i don't agree.
It's called fear. Not wanting to get involved. Not sure of what to do or how to do it. There are many reasons.
In my career i have been exposed to a great deal of violence. I have seen normally outgoing and usually confident people 'freeze', when exposed to violence.
I once had to jump into a fast flowing river to rescue two young people from a submerged car. I managed to get one out and had to tread water and attempt mouth to mouth at the same time. A crowd of almost 50 watched from the river bank.
I went ballistic at that crowd after i got out of the water. A few come up to me and apologised. Their reasons/excuses...were "fear" and "didn't know what to do" or, "they expected someone else to do something".
For those here who think they know me or claim to...the above info is easily googled. It was covered by the media, as is the bravery award.
sockstealingpoltergeist
05-05-2009, 18:34
Phyllis i agree with almost all of what you are saying. I'll even add that a majority of men have been the victim of male perpetrated violence at some point in their life.
.
This is true, all except the bit about almost all. Amend that to agree with all.
But i disagree that it is a "widely accepted" aspect of our culture.
.
Then why and how is it deeply imbeded? If wasn't accepted why isn' more being done about it?
I don't hang out with any elite or strange groups of males and yet almost none of them accept or condone violence against men or women.
.
Eccept pornography etc
But i accept that you have your opinion and respect your right to that opinion. But that respect 'should' or could go both ways.
PS: Perhaps you might recall the school bully? Well in my experience that one person 'bullied' a lot of people. Therefore a lot of people at my school experienced bullying. But by a very small minority.
I recall more then one bully. I also recall girls being intimidated by the boys, and boys calling girls who wouldn't kiss them frigid and girls that had more then a few boyfreinds as easy sluts. It was such an embedded part of the culture that this type of behaviour wasn't considered bullying , when it fact it certainly is.
This is true, all except the bit about almost all. Amend that to agree with all.
Then why and how is it deeply imbeded? If wasn't accepted why isn' more being done about it?
Eccept pornography etc
Are you sure:)?
I recall more then one bully. I also recall girls being intimidated by the boys, and boys calling girls who wouldn't kiss them frigid and girls that had more then a few boyfreinds as easy sluts. It was such an embedded part of the culture that this type of behaviour wasn't considered bullying , when it fact it certainly is.
Thanks for the laugh there SSP (I'm genuine) How would one know?
This is true, all except the bit about almost all. Amend that to agree with all.
Then why and how is it deeply imbeded? If wasn't accepted why isn' more being done about it?
One of my posts above deals with the embedded bit i believe.
Why isn't more being done about it? I think we are moving forward and have been for a couple of decades. It just isn't moving forward quickly enough for some, in my opinion.
sockstealingpoltergeist
05-05-2009, 18:46
No i don't agree.
It's called fear. Not wanting to get involved. Not sure of what to do or how to do it. There are many reasons.
In my career i have been exposed to a great deal of violence. I have seen normally outgoing and usually confident people 'freeze', when exposed to violence.
I once had to jump into a fast flowing river to rescue two young people from a submerged car. I managed to get one out and had to tread water and attempt mouth to mouth at the same time. A crowd of almost 50 watched from the river bank.
I went ballistic at that crowd after i got out of the water. A few come up to me and apologised. Their reasons/excuses...were "fear" and "didn't know what to do" or, "they expected someone else to do something".
For those here who think they know me or claim to...the above info is easily googled. It was covered by the media, as is the bravery award.
So you were given a bravery award for not being afraid, and condemed those who admitted to it?:confused: Double standards, exactly what we expect of men, to bravely jump in the water with no regard for their own safety and condem those who don't as cowards.
My dads bigger then your Dad!
and and and I once got a sticker for being a good girl and having propper manners in school.:D Ok that may never have happened to me, but you get my point.
One of my posts above deals with the embedded bit i believe.
Why isn't more being done about it? I think we are moving forward and have been for a couple of decades. It just isn't moving forward quickly enough for some, in my opinion.
Sorry, i have to go. Dinner, etc, etc, etc.
So you were given a bravery award for not being afraid, and condemed those who admitted to it?:confused: Double standards, exactly what we expect of men, to bravely jump in the water with no regard for their own safety and condem those who don't as cowards.
Nope. No double standards. Didn't say anything about cowards. But they could have done something. And there were plenty of ladies who didn't do anything either.
I was scared Sh*****S. I don't consider myself brave at all.
It took almost 10 minutes for someone to call for emergency services...the call received time was logged.
Mrs Nietzsche
05-05-2009, 18:51
Solodad, I don't think it was relevant.
A high proportion of men are violent, a high enough proportion that violence is an experience that nearly every Australian has.
A woman being bashed in her home by her husband is not doing nothing for the reasons you mentioned.
A woman being raped in a dark alley would not find your anecdote relevant.
A woman who goes on a date only to have her drink spiked and be woken up to find that she's been raped would not enjoy being told that she did nothing because she was 'waiting for someone else to do something'.
A casual acceptance of an element of violence in men is the norm in our culture. This doesn't mean we accept men bashing others... but it does mean that becuse we accept say - a bit of a punchup in the schoolyard or the back of the pub - that element of violence is more likely to be inflamed into more serious violent attacks in certain individuals.
This is an aspect of personality that particularly effects men....
In certain contexts where female violence is more acceptable, such as in female prisons, then you see a higher level of violence.
Human beings are incredibly malleable, we are moulded by what is expected by us. When you bring up one half of a population to be boisterous, rough-housing, brave on the footy field, don't let anyone talk down to you, etc etc etc etc... you normalise an element of aggression that can flare into serious violence.
Violence, or its tamer cousins, is a part of the Australian male psyche.
RedPanda
05-05-2009, 18:51
My dads bigger then your Dad!
and and and I once got a sticker for being a good girl and having propper manners in school.:D Ok that may never have happened to me, but you get my point.
Kinda harsh there SSP. While Duchessa has a point about the modesty, I don't classify saving people from drowning as an "I've got a bigger penis than you" competition. I'm not entirely sure how this story comes into the discussion though.
As a side note, Phyllis your name does not suit you at all! Are you being ironic? :bee:
sockstealingpoltergeist
05-05-2009, 18:56
Kinda harsh there SSP. While Duchessa has a point about the modesty, I don't classify saving people from drowning as an "I've got a bigger penis than you" competition. I'm not entirely sure how this story comes into the discussion though.
As a side note, Phyllis your name does not suit you at all! Are you being ironic? :bee:
The bragging, whilst addressing solodads post, also points a to a culture that rewards men for being masculine, and girls for being feminine. That was my experience at school. In fact that has been my life long experience.
rainbow road
05-05-2009, 18:59
Hey
SoloDad, what happened with you and the people was something called bystander inaction.
The bigger a crowd is when there is a problem the less likely anyone is to actually do anything - they just stand there as if paralysed, waiting for someone else to do it.
I was on a train once and fainted (during morning peak hour) and not one person did a thing to help me, I came to a minute or so later and everyone was still sitting in their chairs, reading their newspaper ignoring the fact that a seemingly healthy woman had just keeled over for no apparent reason.
It applies to men and women equally and is a social psychological phenomenon.
wiki (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect)
Just for everyone's information. :)
Now back to the topic at hand!
Mrs Nietzsche
05-05-2009, 19:07
This is totally off topic, but I once did the same thing (rescued someone from drowning) and when I was 18 I rescued someone from a burning house. Ha! Seriously though. There was not even one part of me that felt brave or hesitated, I don't consider it bravery at all, I think some people must just be programmed towards action and some towards caution/staying with the crowd.
(I am unsure how this would relate to gender. I think plenty of women would do similar, without thinking, to save their child. In a broader social context though, of course, womena re *socially* programmed to be victims, men to be rescuers.)
I even read *cough* a study possible relating to this once - the kamikaze gene. If someone bursts into a lecture theatre and starts shooting.. you will get a couple of people who jump up and try and bring the gunman down (and invariably die themselves). Why would they do this, how could sucha gene possible evolve?
Because by rescuing those near to you (in an evolutionary context, probably your relatives) you are making it more likely that your genes will survive (though you yourself may die).
Anyway I don't necessarily believe in an evolutionary psychologist's take on things....
And I apologise profusely for being so off topic, i think solodad's other thread has got me ruminating on this kind of thing
IN regards to the women as victims/ men as heroes thing..... I also remember reading about a study on pre and post adolescent girls .... apparently pre-puberty, girls daydreams and fantasies revolve around themselves as 'heroes' - rescuing people, rescuing their favourite crush from a monster, and so on. After puberty, their daydreams change and they become the victim who is rescued - the damsel in distress if you will.
Duchessa
05-05-2009, 19:39
Phyllis i agree with almost all of what you are saying. I'll even add that a majority of men have been the victim of male perpetrated violence at some point in their life.
But i disagree that it is a "widely accepted" aspect of our culture.
I don't hang out with any elite or strange groups of males and yet almost none of them accept or condone violence against men or women.
You yourself accept violence against women when you condone the viewing of pornography (I know, you don't watch it yourself, but it is an entertainment you think that people have the right to consume) or the legalisation of prostitution - they are forms of violence against women.
You condone it yourself when you watch football, boxing, rugby or other blood sports.
You condone it yourself when you go to the theatre and consume movies that are bloody and cruel with the most barefaced and barbarous violence.
Violence is deeply a part of our culture and most of us accept it, depictions of it, descriptions of it, enactments of it, on a daily basis.
Phyllis Stein
05-05-2009, 19:52
No i don't agree.
It's called fear. Not wanting to get involved. Not sure of what to do or how to do it. There are many reasons.
...
For those here who think they know me or claim to...the above info is easily googled. It was covered by the media, as is the bravery award.
I didn't mean in the actual event of violence. I meant the everyday opportunities.
No one just *knows* what to do about this stuff, but if they're actually serious about not accepting this violence, they take steps to find out.
Do they read feminist literature or blogs, not support the sex industry, reject violent, overtly masculinised sports, reject "boys will be boys" as justification for destructive behaviour, support law reform that makes it easier to prosecute rape, not use threatening verbal or non-verbal behaviour in their personal relationships, not tolerate media that dehumanises women, not pressure, manipulate or coerce women into sex, not tolerate sexist "jokes", LISTEN to women's perspectives on this (they might just know something! :doh:), take feminism seriously (it is the human rights movement of half the population after all), give money or time to women's organisations, shelters etc, not tolerating friends or families abusive behaviour to women, contact public officials regarding structural factors that keep women in abusive relationships, take women's claims of violence and rape seriously, believe them, not implicitly or explicitly lay responsibility for violence at women's feet, support an end to war as a means of conflict, and most of all, place women's right to basic safety and equality ahead of the imperative to maintain male privilege.
If a person does these kinds of things, then I give them credit for not accepting the current cultural norm. If all they can do is pay lip service to non-violence against women, then as far as I can see, they're tacitly accepting it.
As a side note, Phyllis your name does not suit you at all! Are you being ironic? :bee:
Aw, that's one of the nicest things anyone's ever said to me! :p No irony intended, I just thought it was hilarious for all of one day. :o
Mrs Nietzsche
05-05-2009, 19:53
I only just 'got' your name.
Duchessa
05-05-2009, 19:58
Do they read feminist literature or blogs, not support the sex industry, reject violent, overtly masculinised sports, reject "boys will be boys" as justification for destructive behaviour, support law reform that makes it easier to prosecute rape, not use threatening verbal or non-verbal behaviour in their personal relationships, not tolerate media that dehumanises women, not pressure, manipulate or coerce women into sex, not tolerate sexist "jokes", LISTEN to women's perspectives on this (they might just know something! :doh:), take feminism seriously (it is the human rights movement of half the population after all), give money or time to women's organisations, shelters etc, not tolerating friends or families abusive behaviour to women, contact public officials regarding structural factors that keep women in abusive relationships, take women's claims of violence and rape seriously, believe them, not implicitly or explicitly lay responsibility for violence at women's feet, support an end to war as a means of conflict, and most of all, place women's right to basic safety and equality ahead of the imperative to maintain male privilege.
If a person does these kinds of things, then I give them credit for not accepting the current cultural norm. If all they can do is pay lip service to non-violence against women, then as far as I can see, they're tacitly accepting it.
More :bee:
missie_mack
05-05-2009, 20:01
Well.... culturally speaking...
Masculine men all have a tool shed and know how to use the tools inside it, they often go here to escape their wife and family...
Masculine men wouldn't be seen dead wearing a pink shirt because someone might assume they are homosexual
Masculine men drink beer as their first preference
Masculine men don't change nappies or push prams unless nagged into doing it and then they do it begrudgingly
Masculine men don't have their hair coloured unless it is something waaaay out of the norm
Masculine men hang outside the shops whilst their wife looks at clothes with a rather bored or annoyed look on their face
Masculine men generally speaking don't cook with the exception of when it involves fire
Masculine men's household chores are mowing the lawn, putting the bins out, catching vermin/insects and changing lightbulbs
Masculine men now lots and lots about cars
Masculine men are responsible for putting food on the table and their woman knows not to ask them to take sick leave or parental leave when children come along
Masculine men don't dance and play football (whichever version depending on your nationality).....
Masculine men have their bucks nights with strippers etc cause its their last chance of freedom
And those who don't are under the thumb, pussy whipped, homosexual or queers
Hey
SoloDad, what happened with you and the people was something called bystander inaction.
The bigger a crowd is when there is a problem the less likely anyone is to actually do anything - they just stand there as if paralysed, waiting for someone else to do it.
I was on a train once and fainted (during morning peak hour) and not one person did a thing to help me, I came to a minute or so later and everyone was still sitting in their chairs, reading their newspaper ignoring the fact that a seemingly healthy woman had just keeled over for no apparent reason.
It applies to men and women equally and is a social psychological phenomenon.
wiki (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect)
Just for everyone's information. :)
Now back to the topic at hand!
Thank you for describing it that way. I've since researched bystander inaction and it is very interesting. Explains a lot.
RedPanda
05-05-2009, 20:40
The bragging, whilst addressing solodads post, also points a to a culture that rewards men for being masculine, and girls for being feminine. That was my experience at school. In fact that has been my life long experience.
A very valid statement SSP, and I do agree. I was just surprised that you applied it to a rescue situation.
Anyhoo, continue on :thumbsup:
rynosmum
05-05-2009, 21:25
I look at some of these threads and wonder if our modern society spends way too much time analysing what each sex 'should' be and what we 'should' do rather than just realising that some things just are.
Maybe I see life too simplistically but I am lucky enough to have a man who meets most of the criteria I had always hoped for - with all of the 'masculine' ticks. He's a big strong protector for myself and my children.
He doesn't look for trouble but if it found us, I know that he could protect us. He's tall and strong and all of those things that men are told they should be.
He earns a good salary to support us, even though I also earn an equal amount as I think any relationship is also a partnership.
I want him to open the door for me....often he doesn't but sometimes he does. He always remembers my birthday etc but he pretty much always gets the gift the night before.
He loves sport and can teach our son how to play AFL, cricket, tennis, go fishing etc with ease. He also like to go and watch sport with his mates.
He drinks beer...at least I always know that I have wine in the house:p
I cook most of the meals but he does sometimes and he's a pretty good cook - although better on the stereotypical BBQ.
He can't contemplate washing clothes and he rolls his eyes if I ever take him clothes shopping...
He'd go to a strip joint for a bucks night but would tell me all about it when he got home (although I would expect that he would check out the girls - they put themselves on stage, you can't expect a guy to not look imo)
At the end of the day though, he's a 'bloke' which is exactly what I love about him. I don't need another 'me' in the relationship.
Are we happy? Absolutely.
Do we work well together and each respect each other? Without a doubt.
Am I worried about 'gender roles'? Not in the slightest.
Do I get why there are countless pages here analysing just that? Nope - not a hope.:p
With respect, RynosMum, have you read some of the posts (admittedly, there are LOTS of them, most offtopic)?
Very few of the things you listed "just are" in my opinion.
And perhaps your husband might find some of those definitions of masculinity restrictive and unwelcome. He might do those things, or even be those things, but might not want to be.
Masculinity is about what we (as a society, as well as individuals) EXPECT of men. They "just are" the way they are because of social pressure, and in some cases, in spite of it.
Why are we worried about it? Because the social construction of gender is dangerous and demeaning for both men AND women.
rynosmum
05-05-2009, 21:59
You're right - there are a lot of posts:laughing: I must admit I read the first couple of pages and responded from there.
To be entirely honest, my husband wouldn't find the definitions restrictive as he would find the topic of analysis to be....well let's just say....silly.
That said, perhaps we are too simple and naive. I figure that men and women are built differently and function differently and have been for thousands of years. I love to shop and love sparkly pretty things. He loves having a beer with his mates and fishing. We both love spending time playing with our children. We are inherently different and I can't see why any social pressures need to be blamed for the generalisations that we may exhibit.
I can give you two really great reasons you need to be aware of the social pressure behind what it means to be "masculine" or "feminine".
What if your lovely little boy is gay? Or just likes ballet, or prefers wine to beer (in a few years!)
Or your little girl is bold and adventurous, hates shopping, and is so smart that the boys all hate her for it?
If you aren't aware of the social pressure to conform, then you won't know how to fight it when your son or daughter is unable to be who they REALLY are because of those norms. Best reasons in the world, kids :goodvibes:
missie_mack
05-05-2009, 22:13
Rynosmum... what happens when a son of yours (assuming you have one or have one in the future) doesn't feel the attraction to these boxes? What can you do to make him not feel like less of a man if he cannot support his family or earns less money than his partner, if he has no interest in playing these sports his father enjoys, is not physically 'buff enough' (as my DH puts it lol) or doesn't like beer and would rather drink a west coast cooler?? :confused: Sons don't always grow up to be just like their Daddys.
When we put together a tick box list there are always those who fall outside it and when you are talking about a persons sexual identity it can be pretty demoralising and cause far more damage than good.
Duchessa
05-05-2009, 22:19
This is more sinister, but the reason I am so passionate... What if our little girls suffered the consequences of the objectification of women and were raped? Or if they needed to prostitute themselves to put themselves through uni (something that is happening more and more in Victoria, thanks to the Kennet Gov's brilliant move to legalise prostitution)? Or your boy is killed in a barroom brawl by another angry young man?
When your husband goes to a bucks night, he consumes other people's daughters. Sisters, mothers... When he eggs on a footy brawl, he watches other people's sons damaging each other... These are examples of the ways in which the violence inherent in our culture damages us.
Kinda harsh there SSP. While Duchessa has a point about the modesty, I don't classify saving people from drowning as an "I've got a bigger penis than you" competition. I'm not entirely sure how this story comes into the discussion though.
Thanks WitchHazel.
The story was in response to Phyllis's question about inaction on the part of people. Why do they do nothing. I felt the story gave a relevant example of why people sometimes do nothing.
Similar to the story shared with us a few posts after mine by Soho who fainted on the bus and nobody came to her assistance.
It certainly wasn't intended as "bragging". I have better 'stories' if i wish to brag.
Mrs Nietzsche
05-05-2009, 22:22
I think it needs to be kept in mind too that gender roles are self-perpetuating....
If Daddy is a 'man's man'... chances are little johnny will be too... because that is how he will be moulded from day dot when he is given a truck and a football.
How many billions of times have I read in threads 'girls and boys are *just different* - my little girl loves pink and dolls and my DS loves mudpies and being rough'.
You yourself accept violence against women when you condone the viewing of pornography (I know, you don't watch it yourself, but it is an entertainment you think that people have the right to consume) or the legalisation of prostitution - they are forms of violence against women.
You condone it yourself when you watch football, boxing, rugby or other blood sports.
You condone it yourself when you go to the theatre and consume movies that are bloody and cruel with the most barefaced and barbarous violence.
Violence is deeply a part of our culture and most of us accept it, depictions of it, descriptions of it, enactments of it, on a daily basis.
I don't condone the watching of pornography Duchessa. I don't like it at all. But i am not going to step up and tell everyone that watches it that they can't do it.
I don't watch blood sports.
I don't condone violence against anyone.
sockstealingpoltergeist
05-05-2009, 22:26
I know it is a learned behaviour, and it's all OK, because my mum is prettier then your mum.:yes:
I didn't mean in the actual event of violence. I meant the everyday opportunities.
No one just *knows* what to do about this stuff, but if they're actually serious about not accepting this violence, they take steps to find out.
Do they read feminist literature or blogs, not support the sex industry, reject violent, overtly masculinised sports, reject "boys will be boys" as justification for destructive behaviour, support law reform that makes it easier to prosecute rape, not use threatening verbal or non-verbal behaviour in their personal relationships, not tolerate media that dehumanises women, not pressure, manipulate or coerce women into sex, not tolerate sexist "jokes", LISTEN to women's perspectives on this (they might just know something! :doh:), take feminism seriously (it is the human rights movement of half the population after all), give money or time to women's organisations, shelters etc, not tolerating friends or families abusive behaviour to women, contact public officials regarding structural factors that keep women in abusive relationships, take women's claims of violence and rape seriously, believe them, not implicitly or explicitly lay responsibility for violence at women's feet, support an end to war as a means of conflict, and most of all, place women's right to basic safety and equality ahead of the imperative to maintain male privilege.
If a person does these kinds of things, then I give them credit for not accepting the current cultural norm. If all they can do is pay lip service to non-violence against women, then as far as I can see, they're tacitly accepting it.
Aw, that's one of the nicest things anyone's ever said to me! :p No irony intended, I just thought it was hilarious for all of one day. :o
Sorry Phyllis, my mistake. I read it too quickly. I have read it again and this post and understand now that i misunderstood you.
I accept your point and agree.
missie_mack
05-05-2009, 22:47
I think it needs to be kept in mind too that gender roles are self-perpetuating....
If Daddy is a 'man's man'... chances are little johnny will be too... because that is how he will be moulded from day dot when he is given a truck and a football.
How many billions of times have I read in threads 'girls and boys are *just different* - my little girl loves pink and dolls and my DS loves mudpies and being rough'.
Sure that can be the case. But what happens when it doesn't. My Dhs has a direct ancestor who has served in every war for the last 300 years, his father served in the navy for over 20 years, he enjoys fixing cars and building things. My Dh is a computer nerd with no coordination, had no interest in serving in the military, he is a thin build but tall, hasn't the interest or desire to build or fix cars for fun. It did very little for my Dhs self esteem, he simply doesn't meet his father expectations of being a man :( His father makes doesn't hold back either. They are already teaching these ideals to their grandsons... its just scary.
My DS has a natural interest in boyish things like trains and planes, its not encouraged its genuine. Similarly he loves playing with hoolahoops, playing fancy dress (loves a good pair of heels and a handbag) and loves my russian dolls. He loves to sing and dance. I don't discourage this either. I don't want him to grow up feeling these desires are abnormal or that he has to worry that kissing my stepfather instead of shaking his hand as he tries to advocate 'will make him gay' or less masculine or something he should shun or hide from others.
Mrs Nietzsche
05-05-2009, 22:51
Yes absolutely... my point was really that if you argue to some people that perhaps their children might not like to repeat the same gender roles that they have adopted, they will say oh but that is just who they are! my girl, is girly, my boy is a boy's boy!
Not realising that they themselves have had a huge hand in making that so.
Or that they might be denying part of themselves in order to fulfil their parents' expectations.
I agree totally, people can be very cruel when children don't match up to their ideas of what a man should be, or a woman should be.
bigbadbrad
05-05-2009, 22:54
SD, why do these threads normally turn into people arguing with you rather than discussion of the OP?
The threads are not about people convincing you of this or that it is an opportunity for people to get and express points of view...... not to argue incessantly until people either stop posting or agree with you to get you to leave it alone.
Seriously you are like a dog with a favourite bone, you just won't let anything go, until EVERYONE agrees with you. I'm sorry but this is highly unlikely to happen, particularly given the evidence to date!
I love that you post regularly and are passionate but you HAVE to allow people to have their own opinions without trying to get them to conform to your point of view every time
Having said all of that I would like ALLL members to respect other peoples opinions and stop ANY personal confrontations
Sincerely
BBB
sockstealingpoltergeist
05-05-2009, 23:01
Sure that can be the case. But what happens when it doesn't. My Dhs has a direct ancestor who has served in every war for the last 300 years, his father served in the navy for over 20 years, he enjoys fixing cars and building things. My Dh is a computer nerd with no coordination, had no interest in serving in the military, he is a thin build but tall, hasn't the interest or desire to build or fix cars for fun. It did very little for my Dhs self esteem, he simply doesn't meet his father expectations of being a man :( His father makes doesn't hold back either. They are already teaching these ideals to their grandsons... its just scary.
My DS has a natural interest in boyish things like trains and planes, its not encouraged its genuine. Similarly he loves playing with hoolahoops, playing fancy dress (loves a good pair of heels and a handbag) and loves my russian dolls. He loves to sing and dance. I don't discourage this either. I don't want him to grow up feeling these desires are abnormal or that he has to worry that kissing my stepfather instead of shaking his hand as he tries to advocate 'will make him gay' or less masculine or something he should shun or hide from others.
That's the problem with gender stereotyping, as your DH can attest, it's not good for anyone.
My DH is a beer drinking, electrician/ handy man, who looks big and tough. People asume he's some rough neck and it's just not the case.
My FIL, was very concerned that our DS likes the colour pink, because he knows some other "men who like the colour pink, wink wink nudge nudge".
MordecaiAliVanAllenO'Shea
05-05-2009, 23:01
Phew - just finished reading all the posts, quite a lot to get through. It's strange I guess for me because like one previous poster my experience of gender differences has been quite different to those expressed by a lot here. I come from a long line of dominant women, who seem to have always ended up partnering gentle, more reserved men who weren't at all threatened by that dominance but in a way proud of it. My father and grandfathers had no interest in sports, would consider any form of pornography/strippers etc abhorent as they objectify women and are not respectful, and were never in any way violent - neither through action or verbally. I dont think I have ever in my life heard my Dad put down another person. My brother, sister and I all had equal expectations placed on us in terms of behaviour, relationships in our teens, conflict resolution etc.
I also went to an all girls school, and my chosen career is female dominated (yes yes I know, a result of social constructs etc) so there were mostly women in my university course. Being in female dominated environments the bullies I saw were female, the full range of human personalities, strengths and weakenesses were displayed by that vast array of females.
I also have been a victim of abuse, twice actually, both times by males. While the effects of those experiences are traumatic and life long those two males to me are not representative of masculinity because they are more than outwieghed by the majority of the males I have been fortunate to know.
I guess I am very fortunate that these have been my experiences that lead me to give a very different definition of masculinity.
Also, while to a certain extent I agree that all characteristics are just a range of options on a continuim of human characteristics, there are some that are more often demonstrated by women and some by men. And yes, I get the social construct bit,that had those men and women been raised without societal pressures and expectations they may not have naturally displayed those attributes.
However, human beings are creatures that function predominantly in communities, not in isolation. It is biologically (not sure if thats the correct term, but hopefully you get what I mean)how we function. A part of being in a community is the development of norms and expectations of behaviour. For the most part this is meant to be a positive eg a general disapproval for harming other people or animals helps the community/society to function more smoothly. Sometimes however there are some norms that seem to form no function except maybe to give one element of that society more power, which is where I'm guessing the feminists come in to fight that. While it is admirable that they wish to fight against this, and indeed the existence of those that challenge societies norms is what stops it stagnating and makes it an ever evolving thing, at some level I think it has to be seen that having certain societal expectations is not inherently a bad thing. Yes we are a product of our society, because people are designed to exist as part of a society and work together.
I think I lost the point of what I was trying to say - I guess I was trying to find a more eloquent way of saying, its not always a bad thing for society to have some loose expectations of how we act, and anyone who does conform in anyway is not ignorant, or misguided, or lacking self-awareness. They are just happy to accept that at this time in our society men and women have some fundamental differences and they can enjoy those sometimes without being considered ignorant.
Mrs Nietzsche
05-05-2009, 23:11
That was a very good post Jaidevsmum.
I think what you are talking about is conservative functionalism.... that society functions as an organism, with each element having its role that works with the rest to function well.
It's my personal theory that the reason many men and women find 'manly' men and 'womanly' women attractive is that they represent a likelihood of social cohesion to that individual.
Ie - it is not the manliness per se that is attractive. It's the fact that the manly individual is successfully performing as per his designated role, which is a reasonably high indicator of functional success in the society.
Problems arise however when these roles are no longer functional.
When the environment changes (technology, global pressures, wahtever) then society needs to adapt.
So under this conservative perspective, the rise of feminism, gay rights, etc represent an adaptation to changes of circumstances (for example, changes in technology, communications, population movements, things like the pill, and so on).
We are in a period of flux now, where we are attempting to find a new equilibrium in regards to a whole range of social roles and issues....
What did work, no longer works.
Nothing is right or wrong per se, merely functional (or non-functional).
Excuse me if this made no sense, I did an essay on it a few months ago and I've probably made a botch of explaining it. (too tired)
missie_mack
05-05-2009, 23:27
That's the problem with gender stereotyping, as your DH can attest, it's not good for anyone.
My DH is a beer drinking, electrician/ handy man, who looks big and tough. People asume he's some rough neck and it's just not the case.
My FIL, was very concerned that our DS likes the colour pink, because he knows some other "men who like the colour pink, wink wink nudge nudge".
Its just crazy really when you look at our changing society. Dhs brother fits the description of a stereotypical man, hes a big man my DS tells everyone his Uncle is BIG like a TRAIN (:p and I still have to walk away when he does it cause I can't help but be amused at his raw honesty) scholastically maybe average if he is lucky but built like the proverbial aussie sh** house... doesn't do him much good manual unskilled labour is a dime a dozen where as my Dh 'the lesser son' has several university degrees and has never been without a job in his life. Really what relevance does the atypical style of man really have in todays society anyhow? :confused: Dh may not be able to build a set of stairs but he sure as hell can afford to pay someone else to :laughing:
SD I think what BBB ment (or the way I read it) is that when you post it ONLY In or to debate, every thread you have started has turned into a mass debate with alot of upset ppl. This forum is about parenting and while i agree more dads are needed around here, they are also need to put input into the forum as a whole not just to cause conflict.
I do believe you dont think you are doing this but thats your lifestyle is arguing the point and making the stories, its your job so i guess its your way of life, but there are more things to parenting then debating things.
Maybe you could try and put in your input in other sections as well without sounding judgemental, its probably not your intent but it does seem to come across that way.
There are plenty of Debating forums out there this is for parenting so maybe try and post as a parent instead of a Jorno.
reAllytee
06-05-2009, 01:27
Phew - just finished reading all the posts, quite a lot to get through. It's strange I guess for me because like one previous poster my experience of gender differences has been quite different to those expressed by a lot here. I come from a long line of dominant women, who seem to have always ended up partnering gentle, more reserved men who weren't at all threatened by that dominance but in a way proud of it. My father and grandfathers had no interest in sports, would consider any form of pornography/strippers etc abhorent as they objectify women and are not respectful, and were never in any way violent - neither through action or verbally. I dont think I have ever in my life heard my Dad put down another person. My brother, sister and I all had equal expectations placed on us in terms of behaviour, relationships in our teens, conflict resolution etc.
I also went to an all girls school, and my chosen career is female dominated (yes yes I know, a result of social constructs etc) so there were mostly women in my university course. Being in female dominated environments the bullies I saw were female, the full range of human personalities, strengths and weakenesses were displayed by that vast array of females.
I also have been a victim of abuse, twice actually, both times by males. While the effects of those experiences are traumatic and life long those two males to me are not representative of masculinity because they are more than outwieghed by the majority of the males I have been fortunate to know.
I guess I am very fortunate that these have been my experiences that lead me to give a very different definition of masculinity.
Also, while to a certain extent I agree that all characteristics are just a range of options on a continuim of human characteristics, there are some that are more often demonstrated by women and some by men. And yes, I get the social construct bit,that had those men and women been raised without societal pressures and expectations they may not have naturally displayed those attributes.
However, human beings are creatures that function predominantly in communities, not in isolation. It is biologically (not sure if thats the correct term, but hopefully you get what I mean)how we function. A part of being in a community is the development of norms and expectations of behaviour. For the most part this is meant to be a positive eg a general disapproval for harming other people or animals helps the community/society to function more smoothly. Sometimes however there are some norms that seem to form no function except maybe to give one element of that society more power, which is where I'm guessing the feminists come in to fight that. While it is admirable that they wish to fight against this, and indeed the existence of those that challenge societies norms is what stops it stagnating and makes it an ever evolving thing, at some level I think it has to be seen that having certain societal expectations is not inherently a bad thing. Yes we are a product of our society, because people are designed to exist as part of a society and work together.
I think I lost the point of what I was trying to say - I guess I was trying to find a more eloquent way of saying, its not always a bad thing for society to have some loose expectations of how we act, and anyone who does conform in anyway is not ignorant, or misguided, or lacking self-awareness. They are just happy to accept that at this time in our society men and women have some fundamental differences and they can enjoy those sometimes without being considered ignorant.
Awww I knew we were good friends for a reason :valentine::laughing::D
Awesome post hun !
I am lucky in that I too grew up with really dominant women in my life & men too but boy the women have always ruled !
My father even with all his faults demanded & pushed all 3 of us girls often much to our horror & dislike to be independant, self sufficient & strong ... I HATED a lot of this as a teen & loathed my father for it but it has come to light in the last year what a legacy my father has left us girls. Its moreso dawning on me in recent weeks how lucky I have been & probably why I am rather 'ignorant' to a lot of what is going on because I never dealt with it growing up.
SD I think what BBB ment (or the way I read it) is that when you post it ONLY In or to debate, every thread you have started has turned into a mass debate with alot of upset ppl. This forum is about parenting and while i agree more dads are needed around here, they are also need to put input into the forum as a whole not just to cause conflict.
I do believe you dont think you are doing this but thats your lifestyle is arguing the point and making the stories, its your job so i guess its your way of life, but there are more things to parenting then debating things.
Maybe you could try and put in your input in other sections as well without sounding judgemental, its probably not your intent but it does seem to come across that way.
There are plenty of Debating forums out there this is for parenting so maybe try and post as a parent instead of a Jorno.
Okay bAam, thanks for your constructive input. I'll give it some thought. By the way i have posted in many other sections.
I will give all that you said some serious thought. I do appreciate the way you put your critique and have taken it constructively. Thank you for that.
rynosmum
06-05-2009, 21:22
I can give you two really great reasons you need to be aware of the social pressure behind what it means to be "masculine" or "feminine".
What if your lovely little boy is gay? Or just likes ballet, or prefers wine to beer (in a few years!)
Or your little girl is bold and adventurous, hates shopping, and is so smart that the boys all hate her for it?
If you aren't aware of the social pressure to conform, then you won't know how to fight it when your son or daughter is unable to be who they REALLY are because of those norms. Best reasons in the world, kids :goodvibes:
Rynosmum... what happens when a son of yours (assuming you have one or have one in the future) doesn't feel the attraction to these boxes? What can you do to make him not feel like less of a man if he cannot support his family or earns less money than his partner, if he has no interest in playing these sports his father enjoys, is not physically 'buff enough' (as my DH puts it lol) or doesn't like beer and would rather drink a west coast cooler?? :confused: Sons don't always grow up to be just like their Daddys.
When we put together a tick box list there are always those who fall outside it and when you are talking about a persons sexual identity it can be pretty demoralising and cause far more damage than good.
If my son chooses his direction, isn't causing hurt to others and is happy in his decision then we couldn't possibly be more proud. He's a big boy, there is a good chance that he will be the shape and size of the stereotypically 'buffed' male as you put it. That certainly doesn't mean that he doesn't still have a cuddly toy to sleep, isn't extremely affectionate with both myself and his Dad or doesn't almost pass out at the sight of blood.
Likewise, my 1 year old daughter can do what she chooses as she grows, provided she knows that myself and her Dad will be doing everything in our power to keep her safe as well.
This is more sinister, but the reason I am so passionate... What if our little girls suffered the consequences of the objectification of women and were raped? Or if they needed to prostitute themselves to put themselves through uni (something that is happening more and more in Victoria, thanks to the Kennet Gov's brilliant move to legalise prostitution)? Or your boy is killed in a barroom brawl by another angry young man?
When your husband goes to a bucks night, he consumes other people's daughters. Sisters, mothers... When he eggs on a footy brawl, he watches other people's sons damaging each other... These are examples of the ways in which the violence inherent in our culture damages us.
The reality is that women are a smaller, slighter build than a man. They can be overpowered - I don't see this as a sexist thing but moreso an ease of attack thing. It is easy for some crazy (who by the way could be either male or female) to prey on someone who is less capable of fighting back or protecting themselves.
Now, I shouldn't have mentioned bucks night earlier - my DH has gone to about 3, the last being maybe 11 years ago so it's not a common thing. Personally, I see the actions of women at hen's nights to be much worse - the two I have been two have been disgusting - the women have been extremely eager to be involved in the show - Let's not be one sided about this. This is not just a male thing.
As for the footy brawl, have you seen how many women attend football matches these days? Be it league, rugby or AFL, there are often just as many women leading a charge as there are men.
Why do we have to carry a relative sexist attitude to this entire discussion? Big or small, gay or straight, football or ballet? Honestly - if we all just respected each other and our interests and differences, the world would be a much better place to live.
Once you segregate and analyse, you start to pigeon-hole people. You then start to cause angst among people who feel like they don't fit into the nominated mould.
Life is short - to each his/her own.:)
Mr. Ogyny
07-05-2009, 15:02
I think that the point many posters have in this thread is that pigeon holing is dangerous and does lead to a continuation of stereotypes.
Well.... culturally speaking...
Masculine men all have a tool shed and know how to use the tools inside it, they often go here to escape their wife and family...
Masculine men wouldn't be seen dead wearing a pink shirt because someone might assume they are homosexual
Masculine men drink beer as their first preference
Masculine men don't change nappies or push prams unless nagged into doing it and then they do it begrudgingly
Masculine men don't have their hair coloured unless it is something waaaay out of the norm
Masculine men hang outside the shops whilst their wife looks at clothes with a rather bored or annoyed look on their face
Masculine men generally speaking don't cook with the exception of when it involves fire
Masculine men's household chores are mowing the lawn, putting the bins out, catching vermin/insects and changing lightbulbs
Masculine men now lots and lots about cars
Masculine men are responsible for putting food on the table and their woman knows not to ask them to take sick leave or parental leave when children come along
Masculine men don't dance and play football (whichever version depending on your nationality).....
Masculine men have their bucks nights with strippers etc cause its their last chance of freedom
And those who don't are under the thumb, pussy whipped, homosexual or queers
Just so. Except the pink shirt thing, they're just hideous. You may see a woman wearing a light pink blouse, but not often, but you'll never see a woman wearing the style of pink that passes for men's fashion nowadays. Someone was taking the p!ss, I swear. :laughing:
I can fix our cars (sometimes with the help of the internet) and nine times out of ten it will be fine.
I paint too. Not houses, paintings. And I'm not too bad at it.
I've made furniture for my three year old daughter's cubby house.
I cook most nights.
I clean the kitchen every night.
I watch football, especially when the Cowboys play.
I play with my children.
I mow the lawn and clean the pool.
I hated Titanic.
I play computer games.
I'm 178cm tall and only weigh 62kg, so I'm very far from the proverbial brick house.
Now, despite the fact that half of the things on that list were 'masculine' I don't identify myself as such. I'm just a human being with varied interests. And the other traditional 'masculine' things like bashing other humans and objectifying women aren't on the list.
What is masculinity?
I think the word conjures a certain expectaion. It is a word, a constraint, not at all a reflection on all the types of men there are in the world.
I would answer to the question...What do you think are the fundamental expectations placed on the modern day man?
This is a topic I would love to explore as I think that this is an extremely important avenue that needs to be addressed. the times we are moving in are fluid. For the first time, the brain is winning out over brawn (I mean that ideas now can carry as much authority as war mongering). I think we are living in confused times...and men are confused as to what their place is meant to be (as much as all individuals are trying to find the perfect balance within societal constraints). How supportive should they be? How strong they should be? Is it ok yet to show emotion? Should they be concerned with the physical or the spiritual? Is it ok to stay at home to play x box instead of going to the footy?
I mean times have moved..it is now ok to drink light beer, colour your hair, and go to cooking classes if you are a male. I think on this forum there is a lot of heterosexual focused ideals of masculinity, as it is a parenting forum. Are we talking about man/father, or men in general. I know a lot of men who would be absolutely apalled at thinking they were nothing more than beer swilling, porn watching thugs (probably a description I would fit into more easily)..they would like to be described as hot pants wearing, super styled, moet drinking man gods.
I applaud the quiet achieving male. The one who is doing it for himself (and his family..whether they be friends, children, lovers, partners or blood relatives). They are often over looked by the buffoons who climb atop platforms to beat their own drums.
Sorry if this was a confused post..this was a very confusing thread to read.
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