View Full Version : Vaccination - have you or haven't you?
sydneybubhub
27-04-2009, 10:44
Once again, the debate on whether or not to vaccinate our children is in the spotlight.
In this simple poll, we are looking to get an idea just of whether you do or you do not vaccinate your children.
We understand and acknowledge that some parents may change their mind on their decision or wish to manage their immunisations differently to the 'schedule' but we are just looking for a general consensus.
If you wish to discuss the topic further with other parents, please head to the thread Immunisation Issues (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=180).
And remember, your response in the poll is anonymous.
I definately am vaxxing, I am following the Immunisation Shedule.
yes I have vaccinated all of my 10 kids, some of my kids have had several boosters as well, and I will continue to vax any more kids in the future.
sambojambo
27-04-2009, 15:50
first time my son was soooo sooo upset...sick, pooey....crying , not feeding , i got mastisis ....horrible.... i felt it was the oral vaccination that did it to him so we just had the two needles and not the oral this time and he has been 100% fine..... i think its ok to make your own mind up based on your childs reactions and what you will and wont put them through, however when i was little my mum did not vaccinate me and i had whooping cough so bad i nearly didnt make it..... so ....... its a hard one isnt it .
YES....we are a vaxxing family :yes:
canberramomma
27-04-2009, 17:12
I have, but I didn't feel that I had sufficient information to support my decision.
I know this is a wishy-washy response, but I wonder how many other parents feel the same?
Particularly, the chicken pox thing. I understand that some children have been fatally compromised by this, but I wonder about vax fatalities in comparison over a similar amount of time.
What we are asking small people to cope with (in the relation to exposure to disease all at once) seems excessive to me.
DS1 was vaxxed up until 6 months and DS2 isn't vaccinated at all and I won't be vaccinating either at all until I feel the benefits outweigh the risks, whenever that may be.
mum2drew
27-04-2009, 18:51
Yes my DS is fully vac to date.:yes:
I believe the benefits including protecting my DS as well as protecting other newborn babies that are not old enough for their vac fully outweighs any risks involved in having the vac.
My DS did have a slight temp after his vac which we treated with panadol and was gone within 1/2hr.
It scares and upsets me that something that can be prevented only recently killed a 4 week old baby :(
Each to their own though.
Opinionated
27-04-2009, 19:47
Yes, as per the schedule, plus a couple of extras at my expense.
My daughter is fully vaxxed.
My eldest son vaxxed til 12mths.
My 2 youngest sons are not vaxxed.
WorkingClassMum
27-04-2009, 20:05
I have, but I didn't feel that I had sufficient information to support my decision.
I know this is a wishy-washy response, but I wonder how many other parents feel the same?
Particularly, the chicken pox thing. I understand that some children have been fatally compromised by this, but I wonder about vax fatalities in comparison over a similar amount of time.
What we are asking small people to cope with (in the relation to exposure to disease all at once) seems excessive to me.
I'm with you in this boat. I blindly vaxx'd my kids with little thought 'cos it was the done thing.
DD still has large lumps in her arms from her 4YO needles, and still has small lumps in her legs from the baby needles - the Dr keeps saying they will go away, but it is the site of where her excema/dermatitis always flares up.
mum_I'm_hungry
27-04-2009, 20:13
Yes and we have paid for extras like the rotavirus vaccine as well :yes:
I blindly vaxx'd my kids with little thought 'cos it was the done thing.
.
Same.
And I learnt the hard way...
FatBigToe
27-04-2009, 23:15
I would providing that there were no obvious adverse reactions. If there were, and it was possible to isolate which was causing the reaction I would selectively vaccinate.
beck mum to zane and ty
28-04-2009, 06:06
Yes and I'm following the schedual. I want to protect my child any way that I can. Fine he might be irritable for the next day or so. And as for serious reactions, they haven't been proven either.
Lil Bugs Mummy
28-04-2009, 07:58
I have vaccinated my dd who is now nearly 7 months, though i did not have the hep b injection done at birth as i felt she had been thru enough coming out of me without being stabbed with a needle also too it hasn't been given for very long and i didn't want her to be a test baby as such, i personally agree with vaccination, but would not let her have anything that has not been given with sufficient evidence that it is worth it. People shouldn't judge others for their decisions either.
WorkingClassMum
28-04-2009, 09:54
And as for serious reactions, they haven't been proven either.
Try telling that to a parent of a child who's had a reaction.
There are a number of reported cases where a child has reacted to a vaccine. I'm not posting links - I can't be bothered.
But please do not make broadsweeping statements
Fuchsia!
28-04-2009, 09:57
Yes and I'm following the schedual. I want to protect my child any way that I can. Fine he might be irritable for the next day or so. And as for serious reactions, they haven't been proven either.
Try telling that to a mother of a child who has had serious complications from a vaccine. Do you have proof that it hasn't been proven? Cause i can provide with a whole heap of information and links to say otehrwise.
A Party of Five
28-04-2009, 10:01
Yes I have chosen to vaccinate all five of children as per the schedule.
Yeah the proven bit. Why would the Govt/medical profession want to prove it? They wouldn't dare link it.
Hi There, I run an alternate preventative medicine clinic and you wouldnt believe the amount of kids we get in with Post vaccination syndrome, Learning difficulties, Heavy metals, autism, growth and developemental problems. There is no way i would vaccinate my children the kids that we have that have recieved no vaccinations are perfectly healthy with great well developed immune systems. If you are really worried about it you can homepathically vaccinate your children and build thier immunity naturally. Childhood diseases are exactly that-they are meant to be contracted at childhood they actually help brain developement and physical growth.... I would def research it before you make any decision.
forbetoel
28-04-2009, 18:17
Yes, all 4 of mine are vaccinated to the schedule.
Yep have vaxxed all of mine, this one will be too, to the schedule.
Happy2be3
28-04-2009, 21:04
We have selectivly vaccinated.. doing the "done thing" without any information on my side I vaxed my son fully as per schedule up to and including his 6 months, at 12 months he had everything except MMR and he will not be having any further shots.. the only shot i regret giving him was the Hep B as I do not think there are enough good reasons to vac newborns for it.
I would probably vax for Whooping cough if i ever have another child.. and i dont regret giving it to my son.
Yes, I have vaxed my DD and will continue with my uncoming baby.
It is a decision, my DH and I agreed on.
mummeeto2
28-04-2009, 22:09
Both my children are fully vaxed. DH & I would hate to see our children suffer if they contract a disease that's preventable by immunisation.
My DS is fully vaxxed and this next one will be. He did have slight reactions which I also do but for me the reason for vaxxing outweighs the risks.
I am also fully vaxxed and have been all my life, except was late once with polio as my father was on chemo at the time. I have no adverse affects and feel that I would rather have DS fully vaxxed rather than risking a disease which is preventable. I have done my research - I have worked in labs previously so understand it more than some would.
DD1 & DD2 are upto date. DD1 is about to turn 4 and DD2 is about to turn 18 months so they both get a jab the same week :( but at least they can hate mummy together. When our little man arrives he'll be getting what he needs.
I do wish the chickenpox vac was available sooner as my DD2 was 8 months when she cought a good dose from local childcare centre.
Does anyone know if she still needs the vac, ill be asking a doc on the day anyway, just like to be prepared?
DD1 & DD2 are upto date. DD1 is about to turn 4 and DD2 is about to turn 18 months so they both get a jab the same week :( but at least they can hate mummy together. When our little man arrives he'll be getting what he needs.
I do wish the chickenpox vac was available sooner as my DD2 was 8 months when she cought a good dose from local childcare centre.
Does anyone know if she still needs the vac, ill be asking a doc on the day anyway, just like to be prepared?
Nope-she won't need it so one less needle to worry about!
JJJRain-crew
30-04-2009, 06:58
"Hi There, I run an alternate preventative medicine clinic and you wouldnt believe the amount of kids we get in with Post vaccination syndrome, Learning difficulties, Heavy metals, autism, growth and developemental problems. There is no way i would vaccinate my children the kids that we have that have recieved no vaccinations are perfectly healthy with great well developed immune systems. If you are really worried about it you can homepathically vaccinate your children and build thier immunity naturally. Childhood diseases are exactly that-they are meant to be contracted at childhood they actually help brain developement and physical growth.... I would def research it before you make any decision."
END QUOTE LOL well I dont really know how to do that fancy quote thing you all do...anywho...
This is exactly the reason I don't vax atm...and there are many, many more reasons as you probably are all aware of by now if you have been reading all the posts on vaccination.
Another thing I don't like is the effect that vaccines and modern medicines are having on the environment, all our waste by-products are leeching out into our waterways...but then thats just a WHOLE new reason which really has nothing to do with this post LMAO....
so I guess I don't need to tell you that no my 11 month old daughter is vax free, so am I and all of my sisters (be afraid LOL).
we do take alot of showers though and eat alot of fibre so we're clean and have regular bowel movements which is vital for disease prevention... so don't fear me
LOL...hehe.
No one jump on me please I am just playing :)
Happy2be3
30-04-2009, 07:19
Good on you Rainjaa!:yelclap::wave::flowerz:
stepmum1
30-04-2009, 15:51
Poll didn't allow for 2 votes. DS1 is vaxed till 12 months and no we are still decidings. DS2 is unvaxed and reasonably healthy compared to DS1 who had numerous ear infections and sicknesses in his first year. I ticked yes but selectively.
vaxing per schedule here!
No we do not vax here and we won't be until I feel the benefits outweigh the risks.
decembergirl
02-05-2009, 10:18
Definitely a vaxxing family. I would rather my kids have the vaxs than risk possibly contracting the measles or mumps or something worse.
Non vaxer here. I'm terrified of them! Each to their own though:yes:
igobymummy
03-05-2009, 05:26
Yes - we vax our little man as per the schedule. I would hate it if he contracted something like mumps or measles because I hadn't got him vaccinated.
Californication
10-05-2009, 13:05
I think vaxing is essential, so my son will be done as per the schedule when he arrives, as will any other babies that hopefully follow.
The fact that we don't have polio, whooping cough etc here is because of the vax's that have been developed. These preventable diseases kill kids in undeveloped countries, so thank god we can stop them here.
I know there are some risks associated with the vaccines, but I think the benefits outweigh any risk. And I'd prefer a grumpy/upset child for a day or two than for them to get something. Mumps can make males sterile. Chicken pox isn't any fun (from personal experience). German measels can affect not only your child but a pregnant woman's fetus as well..... so why risk it if you don't have to is my theory.
Definitely vaccinating here :yes:. All up to date :thumbsup:
Heck NO!!!
No vaccines whatsoever for my precious little one. She has an all natural immune system and I would really like to keep it that way :yes:.
Yes- DS is vaxxed as per schedule as will the two new ones be when they arrive.
hayleymummy2jakob
10-05-2009, 16:05
Try telling that to a parent of a child who's had a reaction.
There are a number of reported cases where a child has reacted to a vaccine. I'm not posting links - I can't be bothered.
But please do not make broadsweeping statements try telling a mother of a newborn that has cought whooping cough and died at 2 weeks old from a friends un-vaxxed child....
hayleymummy2jakob
10-05-2009, 16:07
Definitely a vaxxing family. I would rather my kids have the vaxs than risk possibly contracting the measles or mumps or something worse.
my feelings exactally :thumbsup:
try telling a mother of a newborn that has cought whooping cough and died at 2 weeks old from a friends un-vaxxed child....
What would you think if the baby caught whooping cough from a vax person and ended with the same outcome??
JabberJaw
10-05-2009, 16:38
Hi There, I run an alternate preventative medicine clinic and you wouldnt believe the amount of kids we get in with Post vaccination syndrome, Learning difficulties, Heavy metals, autism, growth and developemental problems. There is no way i would vaccinate my children the kids that we have that have recieved no vaccinations are perfectly healthy with great well developed immune systems. If you are really worried about it you can homepathically vaccinate your children and build thier immunity naturally. Childhood diseases are exactly that-they are meant to be contracted at childhood they actually help brain developement and physical growth.... I would def research it before you make any decision.
Oh my gosh......you really have no idea do you???? NONE....i am all for homepathy, but not in place of conventional vaccinations.
How about you do some of your own reasearch itno the effects of supposed mild xhildhood disease's......i know of children whos brain is damaged FOREVER because of vaxx preventable diseases.
Please research before spouting off. Post some relevant links.
hayleymummy2jakob
10-05-2009, 16:47
What would you think if the baby caught whooping cough from a vax person and ended with the same outcome??
mate thats was the first time that i had ever heard of a child not being vaxxed and to tell u the truth i thought some how its was illegal..
that was my friends expirence with a non vaxxed child and i know that it could of been prevented ..
she buried her baby over a something that could of been prevented
pro-vaxxers and anti-vaxxs are never all going to agree on this so why do these threads keep being put up i dont understand...
i see it as we all get the choice i dont agree with yours and dont expect u to agree with mine
im not going to bury my child over somthing that could easily be prevented i personally could not live with my self...
thanks
hayleymummy2jakob
10-05-2009, 16:50
Oh my gosh......you really have no idea do you???? NONE....i am all for homepathy, but not in place of conventional vaccinations.
How about you do some of your own reasearch itno the effects of supposed mild xhildhood disease's......i know of children whos brain is damaged FOREVER because of vaxx preventable diseases.
Please research before spouting off. Post some relevant links.
:thumbsup::thumbsup:
mate thats was the first time that i had ever heard of a child not being vaxxed and to tell u the truth i thought some how its was illegal..
that was my friends expirence with a non vaxxed child and i know that it could of been prevented ..
she buried her baby over a somthing that could of been prevented
pro vaxxers and anti-vaxxs are never all going to agree on this so why these threads keep being put up i dont understand...
i see it as we all get the choice i dont agree with yours and dont expect u to agree on mine
im not going to bury my child over somthing that could easily be prevented i personally could not live with my self...
thanks
im sorry for your friend its a terrible tradgedy!!! I cant imagine how hard it was for her.
Im not here to argue though but you didnt answer my question...
hayleymummy2jakob
10-05-2009, 17:07
im sorry for your friend its a terrible tradgedy!!! I cant imagine how hard it was for her.
Im not here to argue though but you didnt answer my question...
the truth very unlucky
but yet if it was to of happened that way obvisily all measures were taken for it not of happened..
But it didnt happen that way
she has also said she would be able to deal with it much easilier knowing that the child had also bein vaxxed but he wasnt so she has to live with that and so does the childs parents
missie_mack
10-05-2009, 17:27
I am confused as to why someone would have their 2 week old in close proximity of a child with whooping cough :confused: vaccinated or unvaccinated
JabberJaw
10-05-2009, 17:51
I am confused as to why someone would have their 2 week old in close proximity of a child with whooping cough :confused: vaccinated or unvaccinated
Because Infected people are most contagious during the earliest stages of the illness more than likely before the cough even begins. So i doubt they would even have had a clue that someone carried the virus.
missie_mack
10-05-2009, 18:08
Because Infected people are most contagious during the earliest stages of the illness more than likely before the cough even begins. So i doubt they would even have had a clue that someone carried the virus.
mmmm but they still would have cold like symptoms. Not really ideal for your newborn to have a cold either.....
Personally I would be most annoyed with myself for having them in this situation. If the symptoms were unrecognisable its a bit harsh to blame the parents of the child accused of passing on the virus when the parents of the newborn weren't able to identify the risk either....
It seems to me that too many people think vaccination is like having a invisible shield that will protect them 100%, which appears to do more harm than good to the rest of society. It should be used more as a last choice defence system instead of a first
It seems to me that too many people think vaccination is like having a invisible shield that will protect them 100%
i agree :yes:
JabberJaw
10-05-2009, 18:17
mmmm but they still would have cold like symptoms. Not really ideal for your newborn to have a cold either.....
Personally I would be most annoyed with myself for having them in this situation. If the symptoms were unrecognisable its a bit harsh to blame the parents of the child accused of passing on the virus when the parents of the newborn weren't able to identify the risk either....
It seems to me that too many people think vaccination is like having a invisible shield that will protect them 100%, which appears to do more harm than good to the rest of society. It should be used more as a last choice defence system instead of a first
True, but us vaxxers think that the more of us that are vaxxed and most importantly up to date with our vaxxes, then the less likely a small baby or immune compromised person will come in contact with the virus to start with. Vaccines work under that assumtion too, basically herd immunity.
I dont think that vaxxes are 100% reliable but i do believe that the more people who are vaxxed, the more effective it will be.
Personally i dont think my vaxxed kids will get whooping cough, you probably dont believe your unvaxxed kid will get it, nor would the mother of a 2 week old baby. No one thinks it will happen to them, but it does, and this is where the big vaxx debate begins, because i think vaxxing will eradicate, non vaxxers dont believe that. Its a debate that i doubt will ever end.
Californication
10-05-2009, 18:36
I dont think that vaxxes are 100% reliable but i do believe that the more people who are vaxxed, the more effective it will be.
Personally i dont think my vaxxed kids will get whooping cough, you probably dont believe your unvaxxed kid will get it, nor would the mother of a 2 week old baby. No one thinks it will happen to them, but it does, and this is where the big vaxx debate begins, because i think vaxxing will eradicate, non vaxxers dont believe that. Its a debate that i doubt will ever end.
:thumbsup: :iagree:
I vacinate because it is the right decision for my family and I.
I believe it is the right thing to do. I believe I will be saving my childs life, (or its quality), by vaxing them. I believe the more vaxers there are the less disease there will be. I dont want to be the cause of someones else's disease related injury or even death, by vaxing myself and my children I believe I am doing this.
Oh my gosh......you really have no idea do you???? NONE....i am all for homepathy, but not in place of conventional vaccinations.
How about you do some of your own reasearch itno the effects of supposed mild xhildhood disease's......i know of children whos brain is damaged FOREVER because of vaxx preventable diseases.
Please research before spouting off. Post some relevant links.
Yes - I don't understand why people go on and on about "harmles childhood diseases" What is with that? All you need to do is read miskelz's story and some others here to know that these diseases are far from harmless.
hayleymummy2jakob
10-05-2009, 19:06
I am confused as to why someone would have their 2 week old in close proximity of a child with whooping cough :confused: vaccinated or unvaccinated
sorry i find this so rude and cold hearted..
yeah she rubbed her baby all over a sick child no its because there parents bought the kid over and did not tell the mother it was sick...
as like u said it had no symptoms no really think about how could u say somthing like that .....
this was a realative of mine and im really hurt by that .......... to speak about a mother what do u really think she wanted to bury her baby.....
i really dont think so.....
i had only put that on to say my experience not thinking that ppl who think they are right would on on and offend a grieving mother think about it....
im amazed actually and really hurt over this
edited to add that she does not blame the childs parent i did not say that
she feels like it could of easily been prevented ......
mmmm but they still would have cold like symptoms. Not really ideal for your newborn to have a cold either.....
Personally I would be most annoyed with myself for having them in this situation. t
Ohh - nice one missie, blame the parents of the baby that died. Really charming.
hayleymummy2jakob
10-05-2009, 19:16
Ohh - nice one missie, blame the parents of the baby that died. Really charming.
i know heartless its alright to put blame on ppl when u arnt in there position...
she doesnt blame anyone for her slf althought i cant say that i would i would put blame on the parents myself.......
im sorry its like a child say dying from chickenpox which can happen that wasnt vaxxed and someone saying to them well mate u did it u could of had the vaxxed yeah it wouldnt happen its heartless to say that to a grieving parent
sorry missie u obviosly have not been in the position of a griving mother so dont jump forward like dr phil and have such a harsh opinion
Fuchsia!
10-05-2009, 19:19
sorry i find this so rude and cold hearted..
yeah she rubbed her baby all over a sick child no its because there parents bought the kid over and did not tell the mother it was sick...
as like u said it had no symptoms no really think about how could u say somthing like that .....
this was a realative of mine and im really hurt by that .......... to speak about a mother what do u really think she wanted to bury her baby.....
i really dont think so.....
i had only put that on to say my experience not thinking that ppl who think they are right would on on and offend a grieving mother think about it....
im amazed actually and really hurt over this
edited to add that she does not blame the childs parent i did not say that
she feels like it could of easily been prevented ......
I am so sorry for the loss of your relative :hugs:
Did this happen recently?
hayleymummy2jakob
10-05-2009, 19:22
I am so sorry for the loss of your relative :hugs:
Did this happen recently?
no it happened a few years ago
dont get me ladies dont get me wrong i am not saying there is a wrong or a right its a personal choice all i was saying is that this topic has more than one side
missie_mack
10-05-2009, 19:41
I think there is nothing worse than spending 9 months of pregnancy worrying about something going wrong and finding relief when a perfectly healthy baby is arrives into this world with ten perfect fingers and ten perfect toes only to lose them not long after. Its not fair :(. I hope your family and yourself find the peace that you seem to be craving and that this little soul made her destination (depending on your belief) I am sorry if you felt I was blaming them. It was never my intention
However...
sorry missie you obviously have not been in the position of a grieving mother so dont jump forward like dr phil and have such a harsh opinion
Thats a very big assumption and as you don't know me at all your really not in the position to make that assumption. I never blamed your relatives (so just to clarify I never said it to the parent as you implied) I said 'if it was me'. I know only too well the implications of a young child catching virus' I have spent many nights sleeping on a chair in various hospitals with my own son at a very young age. I have also had the last rites administered to my son who was not expected to make it through the night because of complications associated with something he caught. So I probably have a better understanding of having a child seriously ill than most.
For the record, I actually blame those who lead the vaccinated (which incidently does include my child we are not entirely unvaccinated :confused:) to believe that they are safe because of it, because it means those who are vaccinated are less likely to seek assistance and ignore the warning signs resulting in spreading it. Giving examples and pointing fingers does very little except to peptuate the idea
PaperTiger
10-05-2009, 19:59
I think there is nothing worse than spending 9 months of pregnancy worrying about something going wrong and finding relief when a perfectly healthy baby is arrives into this world with ten perfect fingers and ten perfect toes only to lose them not long after. Its not fair :(. I hope your family and yourself find the peace that you seem to be craving and that this little soul made her destination (depending on your belief) I am sorry if you felt I was blaming them. It was never my intention
However...
Thats a very big assumption and as you don't know me at all your really not in the position to make that assumption. I never blamed your relatives (so just to clarify I never said it to the parent as you implied) I said 'if it was me'. I know only too well the implications of a young child catching virus' I have spent many nights sleeping on a chair in various hospitals with my own son at a very young age. I have also had the last rites administered to my son who was not expected to make it through the night because of complications associated with something he caught. So I probably have a better understanding of having a child seriously ill than most.
For the record, I actually blame those who lead the vaccinated (which incidently does include my child we are not entirely unvaccinated :confused:) to believe that they are safe because of it, because it means those who are vaccinated are less likely to seek assistance and ignore the warning signs resulting in spreading it. Giving examples and pointing fingers does very little except to peptuate the idea
:iagree:
Haven't got a clue what people are going on about here. Missie_mack's posts haven't been insensitive at all. How ridiculous to make assumptions on her personal feelings.
Gee, people need to :chillpill: a bit.
hayleymummy2jakob
10-05-2009, 20:04
we are not craving peace what has happened has happened
and yes i was assuming when i wrote that things about u
because it was cold hearted and how would u feel if it was u tese things were said about not good im guessing
read my posts i was giving another side of the story,, was not blaming at all
as long as ppl make choices that are right for them and they can sleep straight in bed at night all the best to them...
i was just stating my personal experience and did not think that ppl would pull it apart i was not asking opinions on it i was just stating that some disease are deadly..
im sorry but regardless u pulled my post apart and nitpicked it
i wrote it to just say childhood disease do KILL
mate u do what u want with vaxing its ur choice no-one elses
but dont criticise ppl about parenting cos thats what u did
with ur post
I am confused as to why someone would have their 2 week old in close proximity of a child with whooping cough :confused: vaccinated or unvaccinated
"mmmm but they still would have cold like symptoms. Not really ideal for your newborn to have a cold either....."
thats the 1 and only post that u posted that offended me....\
and we are not craving peace the world can be a cruel place.. we are at peace
bub may have not been with as for a long time but we cherish every moment
and no-one can change what happened
vitalmum
11-05-2009, 13:44
no vacinations in this house hold. We are against the scare tactics, the out of date data that is used to try and convince you that it should be done.
I work in the health industry and feel fully informed as to the pros and cons, there is no real benefit outweighing the risks.
Read information from Dr Tedd Koren.
I have even had a girlfriend whose child got meningitis decide not to vaccinate. The medical model is there to help us get through a crisis if it arises. In our day and age with good hygiene and increases socioeconomic standing, especially here in Australia. We do not need to be attacking our poor little babies underdeveloped immune systems with harsh vacines full of harmful preservatives like thimersol. Let the immune system develop itself. At least if you are going to vaccinate, do what they do in Japan, vacinnate after 2years old, when the body has developed.
Good Luck to all making this decisiion for thier child, it is a hard one
Tenyrmiracle
11-05-2009, 16:19
DH and I have chosen to vaccinate, at this stage it is undecided if we will selectively do this or follow the standard procedure. Our choice is to give our baby the best chance to avoid these diseases though, I do understand why others have chosen to skip vaccinating with all the debating and pros and cons that have been brought up in the recent years.
Regarding whooping cough, I had a rather bad bought when I was 10 (missed booster). I had no symptoms until I started throwing up one night, that was the start. I have been told, by professionals, that I could have been contagious for up to 3 days prior to my symptoms appearing. It's scary to think that my baby could be at risk. I'll be in hiding with him/her until I have the first shots done. Took me 10 years to get to this stage, I'm not having it taken from me by something avoidable.
We do not vaxx - we did try and selectivly vaxx but there is a problem with getting individual vaxx's at the moment. I am not against vaxx i just feel each parent should ahve the right to choose but should be advised ALL the infomation.
There is major problems with all vaxx's out there and the general public are not informed of all the risks involved with vaxx there kids.
Oh my gosh......you really have no idea do you???? NONE....i am all for homepathy, but not in place of conventional vaccinations.
How about you do some of your own reasearch itno the effects of supposed mild xhildhood disease's......i know of children whos brain is damaged FOREVER because of vaxx preventable diseases.
Please research before spouting off. Post some relevant links.
Regarding your perception of not having any idea.... In fact I have alot of Idea.... As a health professional I can tell you that a vax does not stop your child from getting a disease a vax does not stop your child from spreading disease to other vax'd kids a vax depletes and comproises immune, pumps heavy metals such as aluminium, mercury, Bromine, and other toxic contaminates such as fermaldahide, antifreeze, and animal protiens directly into the developing brain and nervous system of a developing child... Please do your own research and tell that to the mother of a child who died as a result of a vax. instead of spouting at the mouth. Check out the Australian Vaccination website for the neg effects of vaccinations we are not talking about a few days of a grumpy child Im talking major autism, makor learning difficultys, all for the sake of a so call money making government scam to sell vaccinations..... Who do you think funds the government the Drug companied that produce the vaccines, why do you think the government pushes vaccines so much, comflict of issues there! dont you think..... And this is all information available to you should you actually research it yourself, again instead of shooting off at the mouth...
MissMetal
12-05-2009, 21:10
yep! pro-vaxxer here :p
DS is up to date & any future kiddies will be too :yes:
WorkingClassMum
13-05-2009, 05:24
DD1 & DD2 are upto date. DD1 is about to turn 4 and DD2 is about to turn 18 months so they both get a jab the same week :( but at least they can hate mummy together. When our little man arrives he'll be getting what he needs.
I do wish the chickenpox vac was available sooner as my DD2 was 8 months when she cought a good dose from local childcare centre.
Does anyone know if she still needs the vac, ill be asking a doc on the day anyway, just like to be prepared?
Nope-she won't need it so one less needle to worry about!
Ummm - maybe not true - check with your Dr and maybe get a blood test - my DD had CPV twice AFTER being vacc'd - so not all CPV vacc's are 100%, and you can get CPV twice
Regarding your perception of not having any idea.... In fact I have alot of Idea.... As a health professional I can tell you that a vax does not stop your child from getting a disease a vax does not stop your child from spreading disease to other vax'd kids a vax depletes and comproises immune, pumps heavy metals such as aluminium, mercury, Bromine, and other toxic contaminates such as fermaldahide, antifreeze, and animal protiens directly into the developing brain and nervous system of a developing child... Please do your own research and tell that to the mother of a child who died as a result of a vax. instead of spouting at the mouth. Check out the Australian Vaccination website for the neg effects of vaccinations we are not talking about a few days of a grumpy child Im talking major autism, makor learning difficultys, all for the sake of a so call money making government scam to sell vaccinations..... Who do you think funds the government the Drug companied that produce the vaccines, why do you think the government pushes vaccines so much, comflict of issues there! dont you think..... And this is all information available to you should you actually research it yourself, again instead of shooting off at the mouth...
If you are a health professional - then I am seriously worried. Please point me in the direction of the scientific study that proves a link with vaxxes and Austism - and no, not the AVN or other lame websites like that. THanks.
As for knowing alot - then we all assume you know that vax prevenatable diseases can have devastating effects as well. Maybe they are pushing the vaxx programs to try get rid of these diseases - it is just a thought. Maybe look up the WHO website - you will see that Measles deaths were at 1million per year before mass vaxxs of developing nations started in 1992 and now they are at 200,000 deaths per year.
As for vaxxs and their effectiveness - most of us on here know they are not 100% - but I would rather my child have a chance at 95% safe than none at all.
reAllytee
13-05-2009, 10:19
DS1 is fully vaxxed ... Even just had his 4yr old ones done !
DS2 is only now up to starting his 6mth round & he is 21mths .... He reacts to the vaxxes & I refuse to push them on him any further to cause any more effects than they already have. He will be fully vaxxed by the time he goes to school I would assume but time will tell !
I reacted as a child too & was delayed & given half dosages which only saw me up to date as of school age !
sandy cheeks
13-05-2009, 10:25
Both kids r up to date.
Yes DD is vax'd up to date thus far and will continue doing so:)
maryanned
18-05-2009, 10:35
Most definately up-to-date and will continue to be. I think it is incredibly important and don't want to risk it.
My son is almost up to date (he is due for his 12mmth needles but has a bad flu so when he gets better he will get his shot)
I am Pro Vax but still worry about all the talk between Autism and vaccinations. But i would rather be safe then sorry.
Urban Tumbleweed
20-05-2009, 17:23
Our son has had all his vaccinations, I didn't realise till reading this this thread that there were so many people that don't do it. I guess its similar to the breastfeeding/bottlefeeding debate, its every parents right to make their own informed decision! :)
TripleTime
20-05-2009, 21:58
We have all of ours. Kids are to young & can have to many problems later on if we dont.
I think any Prem Baby should have them, their immune system isnt strong enough.
Vaccinations are sensible.
lizzieiscontented
07-07-2009, 01:22
If anyone did some research, then they would NATURALLY choose to NOT inject their children with toxic chemicals.
VAX VAX VAX VAX
Yep have vaxxed all of mine, this one will be too, to the schedule.
Opinionated
07-07-2009, 09:30
If anyone did some research, then they would NATURALLY choose to NOT inject their children with toxic chemicals.
I did my research and immunised. I study microbiology at uni at the moment amongst other things and think I made the right choice for MY family. I think statements like yours should be left out of this thread. I would love to say more, but I will leave it at that.:banghead:
workin'mumof2
07-07-2009, 09:35
after extensive research of my own. i have chosen for my family not to vax anymore and am happy with my decision :)
Fuchsia!
07-07-2009, 09:39
I did my research and immunised. I study microbiology at uni at the moment amongst other things and think I made the right choice for MY family. I think statements like yours should be left out of this thread. I would love to say more, but I will leave it at that.:banghead:
half of the statements in this thread should be left out!
JackOfAllTradesMummy
07-07-2009, 09:45
I've chosen to Vax my kids, asides from the slight fever for the first hour, they were fine.
DD had her chickenpox vax but she still contracted chickenpox, it was very mild, she only had 5 spots on her and the only thing that explained why she wasn't covered from head to toe was because she was vax's
Fuchsia!
07-07-2009, 09:48
I've chosen to Vax my kids, asides from the slight fever for the first hour, they were fine.
DD had her chickenpox vax but she still contracted chickenpox, it was very mild, she only had 5 spots on her and the only thing that explained why she wasn't covered from head to toe was because she was vax's
Thats not entirely true, i had chicken pox when i was 14 and i only had about 7 spots on me and i wasn't vaxxed.
TTCin2009
07-07-2009, 10:30
We're still TTC #1 and we're happy to vax but won't be doing the MMR.
My nephew, my cousin's daugther and my boss' son all developed autistic traits in the months immediately following the MMR (I think it's called post vaccination syndrome). I know it's still unproven but there was too much of a coincidence in these families so we're not risking it. Our GP is supportive and says that a number of her patients have also opted out the MMR.
Personally, when I was a baby, I had all the immunisations and I still had full blown chickenpox and the measles ... twice!!
Regarding your perception of not having any idea.... In fact I have alot of Idea.... As a health professional I can tell you that a vax does not stop your child from getting a disease a vax does not stop your child from spreading disease to other vax'd kids a vax depletes and comproises immune, pumps heavy metals such as aluminium, mercury, Bromine, and other toxic contaminates such as fermaldahide, antifreeze, and animal protiens directly into the developing brain and nervous system of a developing child... Please do your own research and tell that to the mother of a child who died as a result of a vax. instead of spouting at the mouth. Check out the Australian Vaccination website for the neg effects of vaccinations we are not talking about a few days of a grumpy child Im talking major autism, makor learning difficultys, all for the sake of a so call money making government scam to sell vaccinations..... Who do you think funds the government the Drug companied that produce the vaccines, why do you think the government pushes vaccines so much, comflict of issues there! dont you think..... And this is all information available to you should you actually research it yourself, again instead of shooting off at the mouth...
So the government wants to vaccinate children, not to prevent diseases that can potentially kill them but as part of a huge conspiracy involving drug companies.
Oh dear. :rolleyes:
What exactly do the government get out of this 'conspiracy' besides not having hundreds of children die needlessly every year?
If you really are a health professional them I'm very worried.
People seem to forget how prevalent these 'simple childhood illnesses' were and how many children actually died from them. The reason children aren't still dying from them in huge numbers is because so many people are vaccinated against them which stops it from spreading. Sure, some people might still catch them but it's better than most people catching them.
If we all stopped vaxing tomorrow then these diseases would become rampant again and kill many, many more people. For that reason I will be vaxing my child when he or she arrives. Personally, I couldn't live with myself if my child caught a preventable but possibly life threatening disease or passed one on to another child.
MuMMarBeAr
07-07-2009, 13:54
I have vaccinated my children and will continue to do so..... it would break my heart if one of my kids got sick or passed due to directly vaccinating...it would KILL me if l didn't vaccinate and one of my children died from a preventable disease!! IMO because l and others that do vac.... it is the only reason that people get to choose not to vacc.... if vaccinations weren't available there would be death by disease....headlines daily in the newspapers....Vaccinations should be made mandatory!! IMO
Kel x
I probably wont be vaxxing my children but i will do a lot more research before i fully decide on what i will definitely be doing :)
People seem to forget how prevalent these 'simple childhood illnesses' were and how many children actually died from them. The reason children aren't still dying from them in huge numbers is because so many people are vaccinated against them which stops it from spreading. Sure, some people might still catch them but it's better than most people catching them.
If we all stopped vaxing tomorrow then these diseases would become rampant again and kill many, many more people. For that reason I will be vaxing my child when he or she arrives. Personally, I couldn't live with myself if my child caught a preventable but possibly life threatening disease or passed one on to another child.
Yeah totally sliiped my mind:rolleyes:
I dont think everyone should stop vaxxing but i dont think the ones that dont should have to start vaxxing either.
Even if your child is vaxxed ANYONE can still carry and spread these diseases..vax isnt 100% and i think to many people let there guard down thinking there children are protected and "safe"
Yeah totally sliiped my mind:rolleyes:
I dont think everyone should stop vaxxing but i dont think the ones that dont should have to start vaxxing either.
Even if your child is vaxxed ANYONE can still carry and spread these diseases..vax isnt 100% and i think to many people let there guard down thinking there children are protected and "safe"
I'm aware of that but a child is less likely to catch a disease if they have have been vaxed and it's more likely to be a milder dose of the illness if they do happen to catch it post-vax.
Nothing in life is 100% foolproof but it's I feel the benefits far outweigh the risks in this case.
But hey, if you're happy with your choice then good for you.
MinkeyMoo
07-07-2009, 14:25
If anyone did some research, then they would NATURALLY choose to NOT inject their children with toxic chemicals.
I have just had child number 3. I have a medical science degree with majors in, amongst other things, Microbiology. It is really really hard to get unbiased information on vaccinations without going straight to scientific studies which are sometimes hard slogg to get through let along access. Yes, do your research and make up your mind what is right for your family.
I do vaccinate my children on a delayed schedule. I am however in two minds about the Rota Virus vaccine for DD3 as it is so new (Wasnt around for DD1 and DD2) I am in the process of trying to do some more research on that one.
ajanef What type of "health professional" are you? and where do you practise? It seems to me you ahev been taken in by a lot of biased web based "research". FWIW Mercury (Thermosal) is not present in ANY CHILDHOOD VACCINES currently used on the schedule. Maybe a bit more solid research before
shooting off at the mouth... as you so delicately put it?
Even if your child is vaxxed ANYONE can still carry and spread these diseases..vax isnt 100% and i think to many people let there guard down thinking there children are protected and "safe"
Not strictly true. Not all people seroconvert (make antibodies) when vaccinated. The most effective vaccines have around a 99% seroconversion rate, the worst (excluding TB) is 75%. So if you seroconvert and the vaccination has not worn off (ie you still have antibodiews in your system) you cannot carry or get the disease. If your antibody level is low or you do not seroconvert well or at all, then yes, you can carry and get the disease. If you have some antibodies then you will get a shorted, less severe form of the disease. Obviously there are a few exceptions that work on different mechanisms, but for simplicitys sake, thats it.
Vaccines work on herd immunituy. If enough people are vaccinated then the pool of potential hosts for the disease reaches criyical low levels and therefore the disease decreases in prevalence.
missie_mack
07-07-2009, 14:41
ajanef What type of "health professional" are you? and where do you practise? It seems to me you ahev been taken in by a lot of biased web based "research". FWIW Mercury (Thermosal) is not present in ANY CHILDHOOD VACCINES currently used on the schedule. Maybe a bit more solid research before as you so delicately put it?
Hi Minkey I think if you go and have a look at the vaccine that they use for Hep B (energex B ) (http://www.gsk.com.au/resources.ashx/vaccineproductschilddataproinfo/126/FileName/8A29377199E92BE7DDB0AC8ECC98183E/PI_EngerixB.pdf) on newborns you will actually find that ajanef's statement has (until quite recently) been entirely correct and that some vaccine providers do indeed still use the thiomersal version of the vaccine.
MinkeyMoo
07-07-2009, 15:01
missie_mack Yes that is the only one that does but I was under the impression from reading I have done that it is not used by any state or territory in Aus for childhood vaccinations.
missie_mack
07-07-2009, 15:34
missie_mack Yes that is the only one that does but I was under the impression from reading I have done that it is not used by any state or territory in Aus for childhood vaccinations.
I had a quick look at the handbook to see if a new Hep B exclusive vaccine had been released and unlike a lot of the others available it doesn't list a brand or name of the hep b vax.
Engerix-B – GlaxoSmithKline (recombinant DNA hepatitis B vaccine).
Adult formulation – Each 1.0 mL monodose vial contains 20 μg recombinant hepatitis B surface antigen (HBsAg) protein, adsorbed onto 0.5 mg aluminium hydroxide.
Paediatric formulation – Each 0.5 mL monodose vial contains 10 μg HBsAg protein, adsorbed onto 0.25 mg aluminium hydroxide. Both formulations contain traces of yeast proteins and thiomersal
When I had a look in the medical journal it was the only one listed as an approved Hep B only vax. However I haven't TBH done a lot of research of late
HTH
If anyone did some research, then they would NATURALLY choose to NOT inject their children with toxic chemicals.
I've done my research and still vax my kids. If anyone has experienced Vpd complications then they would most prob choose to vax.
lizzieiscontented
08-07-2009, 18:06
My education concerning this issue does come from an active participation with NGOs trying to get INFORMED information to people as opposed to the constant government biased endorsements. It is very difficult to accept the fact that our elected parliamentary officials willingly endorse the rhetoric of multinational drug manufacturers, but, and through personal experience, I have witnessed amazing debates where "accredited" professional medical practitioners have been left dumbfounded when asked to prove the effeciveness of vaccines after their own research proved on the contary.
I do not mean to offend when I make posts on this website, but I feel it is very important for people to truly realise that major decisions concerning our childrens' health are cowing to financial multinationals making money as opposed to what's right. My research into the history of multinational pharrmaceutical companies digs up information and facts, that would scare you to the core :no:
As informed individuals we must question the agenda of vaccinating childern, for starters, a newborn has no risk of contracting Hep B. So why do they need to have foreign contaminants directly injected into their fragile bloodstream as soon as they enter this world? Think about it, not as a herd, but as an informed individual.
On a final note, and this does come from personal experience, the many people I know who choose to not vaccinate have very healthy, bright, contented and happy children. Unfortunately I have also witnessed cases where children become extremely ill ( a few deaths also) after being vaccinated. Two of my friends lost their parents after they were administered a flu shot. They did not show any signs of sickness before receiving the vax but their health deteriorated straight after. Just some food for thought.
My education concerning this issue does come from an active participation with NGOs trying to get INFORMED information to people as opposed to the constant government biased endorsements. It is very difficult to accept the fact that our elected parliamentary officials willingly endorse the rhetoric of multinational drug manufacturers, but, and through personal experience, I have witnessed amazing debates where "accredited" professional medical practitioners have been left dumbfounded when asked to prove the effeciveness of vaccines after their own research proved on the contary.
I do not mean to offend when I make posts on this website, but I feel it is very important for people to truly realise that major decisions concerning our childrens' health are cowing to financial multinationals making money as opposed to what's right. My research into the history of multinational pharrmaceutical companies digs up information and facts, that would scare you to the core :no:
As informed individuals we must question the agenda of vaccinating childern, for starters, a newborn has no risk of contracting Hep B. So why do they need to have foreign contaminants directly injected into their fragile bloodstream as soon as they enter this world? Think about it, not as a herd, but as an informed individual.
On a final note, and this does come from personal experience, the many people I know who choose to not vaccinate have very healthy, bright, contented and happy children. Unfortunately I have also witnessed cases where children become extremely ill ( a few deaths also) after being vaccinated. Two of my friends lost their parents after they were administered a flu shot. They did not show any signs of sickness before receiving the vax but their health deteriorated straight after. Just some food for thought.
I assure you that you could tell me nothing that I haven't read myself - I don't just stick to government websites for my reading on the subject. The fact is that most likely the only reason you feel confident not to vax is because most people here do. I am pretty sure the mothers in Rwanda are not sitting around going 'Oh - I've chosen not to vax my child against measles - have you seen the list of ingredients'?
Did you know that up until 2002 a million people died each year from the measles. Mass vaxxs were introuduced then and now the figure is down to 200,000 per year. Speaks for itself really. You can find that info on the WHO website.
Its fine what you choose to do for your children - but please, please - stop making out that people who choose to vax are uneducated on the subject, because I can assure you - alot of us have done as much research as you.
I have never come across anyone - ever who has had a bad reaction to a vax, I know they happen - obvioulsy - people are allergic to everything under the sun so its stands to reason that there are going to be people who can't handle vaxxes. I have however come across people who suffered complications from VPDs - myself included...and this is where my main choice for vaxxing comes from. I only started doing the research after I caught a vpd that caused me masses amount of trauma because I had not been vaxxed for it.
The Hep B shot at birth is not compulsary....for anyone that wishes to know, your child will still get the whole lot from the childhood immunisation schedule anyway - its an extra shot if you will. And it is there for babies considered high risk, ie if mother has hep b - or the baby will be in contact with someone who does. You don't have to get it for your child and it does not affect your childs immunisation status.
Opinionated
09-07-2009, 08:37
Its fine what you choose to do for your children - but please, please - stop making out that people who choose to vax are uneducated on the subject, because I can assure you - alot of us have done as much research as you.
:iagree:I think it is safe to say that whatever side of the debate you sit on, you find it difficult to believe that any parent could research this subject and reach the opposite conclusion to that you have. However, implying that someone has not researched the subject enough or they would agree with your stance is just arrogant.
Happy2be3
09-07-2009, 11:39
The Hep B shot at birth is not compulsary....for anyone that wishes to know, your child will still get the whole lot from the childhood immunisation schedule anyway - its an extra shot if you will. And it is there for babies considered high risk, ie if mother has hep b - or the baby will be in contact with someone who does. You don't have to get it for your child and it does not affect your childs immunisation status.
The problem is that we are made to believe that the Hep B shot is necessary for our newborns.. I certainly was.. I was never told "oh look, the chance of your newborn getting Hep B is VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY low" .. It is the 1 shot I TRULY regret giving, its TOTALLY unnecessary... (I was tested as per normal at 13 weeks for std's etc etc, and of course I was negative for Heb B)
JabberJaw
09-07-2009, 11:44
The problem is that we are made to believe that the Hep B shot is necessary for our newborns.. I certainly was.. I was never told "oh look, the chance of your newborn getting Hep B is VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY low" .. It is the 1 shot I TRULY regret giving, its TOTALLY unnecessary... (I was tested as per normal at 13 weeks for std's etc etc, and of course I was negative for Heb B)
People close to you and your bub can be carriers and not even know it. Heb B is easier to catch than you may assume. Look into it a bit. Its not just transmitted through sexual activity or needles. It much simpler to catch than that.
Your baby and your choice of course, but you have definitely over emphasised the VERY in your post :D
There are talks underway ATM for babies to be trialed with the Gardasil vax with hopes that it can be included into the infant schedule.
I wonder how many parents will go for this??
workin'mumof2
09-07-2009, 12:12
There are talks underway ATM for babies to be trialed with the Gardasil vax with hopes that it can be included into the infant schedule.
I wonder how many parents will go for this??
:dizzy: not me
People close to you and your bub can be carriers and not even know it. Heb B is easier to catch than you may assume. Look into it a bit. Its not just transmitted through sexual activity or needles. It much simpler to catch than that.
Your baby and your choice of course, but you have definitely over emphasised the VERY in your post :D
My hubby works in a high risk field so we decided that the twins will have the shot when they are born. But it is true - they do make out that it isnt acutally an option and they don't tell you that your child will be fully covered if they follow the childhood immunisation schedule.
Happy2be3
10-07-2009, 10:00
People close to you and your bub can be carriers and not even know it. Heb B is easier to catch than you may assume. Look into it a bit. Its not just transmitted through sexual activity or needles. It much simpler to catch than that.
How exactly would a newborn contract Hep B from a relative or friend???
There are talks underway ATM for babies to be trialed with the Gardasil vax with hopes that it can be included into the infant schedule.
I wonder how many parents will go for this??
I will, I dont want my dd's to go through all the crap that I have been through with cervical problems.
How exactly would a newborn contract Hep B from a relative or friend???
The relative or friend would have to rub their infected body fluid ie blood, semen or saliva, into an open wound on the baby.
Or I guess they could be sharing their toothbrush with the baby......if baby's had teeth before their 2 month shots:laughing:
Or shaving the baby......
Ummmm.....
kiwibird27
10-07-2009, 17:24
I believe strongly in vaxxing and herd immunity... the only way we erradictated serious illnesses was by developing immunity.. I believe the ones who do vax ensure the ones who don't are safe.
U would b surprised how many people don't wash there hands, Semen and bodily fluids is on more things than u think, the risk of hep B is great enough that it is offered as an immunisation........ The government would spend a fortune offering it if the risk wasn't there....
The fact of the matter is, if I go to the children's hospital with a seriously ill child and they say.... HEY your child needs anti-biotics for 7 days or they will become seriously ill.... I TRUST THEM.... I don't go running off to my computer to research the serious side effects of an anti biotic.... I also trust them when they tell me that my medically unstable child is well enough to be at home and go to daycare, so if my specialist paediatrician says... go get your child immunised... I will do it.... they have saved my childs life enough to earn my respect and trust on the matter
The fact of the matter is, if I go to the children's hospital with a seriously ill child and they say.... HEY your child needs anti-biotics for 7 days or they will become seriously ill.... I TRUST THEM.... I don't go running off to my computer to research the serious side effects of an anti biotic.... I also trust them when they tell me that my medically unstable child is well enough to be at home and go to daycare, so if my specialist paediatrician says... go get your child immunised... I will do it.... they have saved my childs life enough to earn my respect and trust on the matter
you know what..if my son is seriously ill i take him to the hospital too and i will let them do what needs to be done to save his life.
If they say it would be best to keep my son quarenteened i would do that too.
If they tried to give my son antibiotics for diarea before even checking him over and taking tests I WILL go home and do my research....in any situation NON life threatening i will do my research as much as possible.
I do not trust doctors to do whats best for my son and i dont trust the government so i dont vax
Opinionated
10-07-2009, 19:55
How exactly would a newborn contract Hep B from a relative or friend???
The relative or friend would have to rub their infected body fluid ie blood, semen or saliva, into an open wound on the baby.
Or I guess they could be sharing their toothbrush with the baby......if baby's had teeth before their 2 month shots:laughing:
Or shaving the baby......
Ummmm.....
All it takes is infected body fluid to get into the baby. It doesn't have to be a wound, it could be through their mouth, or through their mucous membranes. Just sneezing and saliva going into the eyes or mouth would be enough. Doesn't even have to be a friend or relative. Could just be one of those people that touch babies in the supermarket without asking. I had an old man attempt to put his finger in one of my kids mouths when they were crying. He is lucky I didn't deck him. So it is actually easier than you are making out for transmission.
All it takes is infected body fluid to get into the baby. It doesn't have to be a wound, it could be through their mouth, or through their mucous membranes. Just sneezing and saliva going into the eyes or mouth would be enough. Doesn't even have to be a friend or relative. Could just be one of those people that touch babies in the supermarket without asking. I had an old man attempt to put his finger in one of my kids mouths when they were crying. He is lucky I didn't deck him. So it is actually easier than you are making out for transmission.
Taken from the Hepatitis B Council website....
http://www.hepb.org/hepb/transmission.htm
Transmission
Hepatitis B is transmitted through blood and infected bodily fluids. This can occur through:
direct blood-to-blood contact
unprotected sex
unsterile needles
from an infected woman to her newborn during the delivery process.
Other possible routes of infection include sharing sharp instruments such as razors, toothbrushes or earrings. Body piercing, tattooing and acupuncture are also possible routes of infection unless sterile needles are used
Hepatitis B is NOT transmitted casually. It cannot be spread through sneezing, coughing, hugging or eating food prepared by someone who is infected with hepatitis B. Everyone is at some risk for a hepatitis B infection, but some groups are at higher risk because of their occupation or life choices
Like I said.......
I believe strongly in vaxxing and herd immunity... the only way we erradictated serious illnesses was by developing immunity.. I believe the ones who do vax ensure the ones who don't are safe.
U would b surprised how many people don't wash there hands, Semen and bodily fluids is on more things than u think, the risk of hep B is great enough that it is offered as an immunisation........ The government would spend a fortune offering it if the risk wasn't there....
The fact of the matter is, if I go to the children's hospital with a seriously ill child and they say.... HEY your child needs anti-biotics for 7 days or they will become seriously ill.... I TRUST THEM.... I don't go running off to my computer to research the serious side effects of an anti biotic.... I also trust them when they tell me that my medically unstable child is well enough to be at home and go to daycare, so if my specialist paediatrician says... go get your child immunised... I will do it.... they have saved my childs life enough to earn my respect and trust on the matter
Well said kiwibird27:yelclap:
From one pro vaxer to another:flowerz:
Opinionated
10-07-2009, 22:15
Taken from the Hepatitis B Council website....
http://www.hepb.org/hepb/transmission.htm
Well, I stand corrected. Thank you for the link. I had been believing misinformation for years.
I guess vaxxing is only indicated if your child is at high risk or you intend to pierce their ears:D or there is a chance they may come into infected body fluids somewhere. Probably not an issue until they are a toddler.
lizzieiscontented
11-07-2009, 00:55
I assure you that you could tell me nothing that I haven't read myself - I don't just stick to government websites for my reading on the subject. The fact is that most likely the only reason you feel confident not to vax is because most people here do. I am pretty sure the mothers in Rwanda are not sitting around going 'Oh - I've chosen not to vax my child against measles - have you seen the list of ingredients'?
Did you know that up until 2002 a million people died each year from the measles. Mass vaxxs were introuduced then and now the figure is down to 200,000 per year. Speaks for itself really. You can find that info on the WHO website.
Its fine what you choose to do for your children - but please, please - stop making out that people who choose to vax are uneducated on the subject, because I can assure you - alot of us have done as much research as you.
I have never come across anyone - ever who has had a bad reaction to a vax, I know they happen - obvioulsy - people are allergic to everything under the sun so its stands to reason that there are going to be people who can't handle vaxxes. I have however come across people who suffered complications from VPDs - myself included...and this is where my main choice for vaxxing comes from. I only started doing the research after I caught a vpd that caused me masses amount of trauma because I had not been vaxxed for it.
The Hep B shot at birth is not compulsary....for anyone that wishes to know, your child will still get the whole lot from the childhood immunisation schedule anyway - its an extra shot if you will. And it is there for babies considered high risk, ie if mother has hep b - or the baby will be in contact with someone who does. You don't have to get it for your child and it does not affect your childs immunisation status.
I am not offended that you assume my confidence to not vaccinate originates from your assumption that vaccines actually work, on the contrary, every time a new vaccine hits the streets, I am left to wonder what laboratory-made pathogens I have to combat against with my natural immunities :dizzy:
No vaccine is compulsory. Our government and media makes every effort to blind and BRIBE the populace into thinking otherwise, however, even if you produce a 'conscientious objection' you would still qualify for the immunisation subsidy - doesn't this tell you something?
If you look beyond the propaganda, behind the corporately owned and the big pharmaceutical company - the World Health Organisation, you would discover that in most cases where vaccines are introduced, the cases for those particular diseases actually increase rather than decrease.
http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/#Meas_Mort_UK_USA
Another misconception and most unfortunate atrocity is the idea that the West can send drugs to Africa and cure pandemics, rather than engage in a concerted effort to educate about hygiene and provide clean water. Even here in Australia, consider the continued decline in Aboriginal equality and health.
http://www.whale.to/vaccine/ayoub_v.html
http://www.thinktwice.com/birthcon.htm
http://poisonevercure.150m.com/population_control.htm
There is ample independent study (that is not Govt. or Corporate sponsored), to warrant my presumed arrogance. Next time your doctor or MP tells you to have a jab, ask them if they do it to themselves, odd's are, they don't.
I am not offended that you assume my confidence to not vaccinate originates from your assumption that vaccines actually work, on the contrary, every time a new vaccine hits the streets, I am left to wonder what laboratory-made pathogens I have to combat against with my natural immunities :dizzy:
No vaccine is compulsory. Our government and media makes every effort to blind and BRIBE the populace into thinking otherwise, however, even if you produce a 'conscientious objection' you would still qualify for the immunisation subsidy - doesn't this tell you something?
If you look beyond the propaganda, behind the corporately owned and the big pharmaceutical company - the World Health Organisation, you would discover that in most cases where vaccines are introduced, the cases for those particular diseases actually increase rather than decrease.
http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/#Meas_Mort_UK_USA
Another misconception and most unfortunate atrocity is the idea that the West can send drugs to Africa and cure pandemics, rather than engage in a concerted effort to educate about hygiene and provide clean water. Even here in Australia, consider the continued decline in Aboriginal equality and health.
http://www.whale.to/vaccine/ayoub_v.html
http://www.thinktwice.com/birthcon.htm
http://poisonevercure.150m.com/population_control.htm
There is ample independent study (that is not Govt. or Corporate sponsored), to warrant my presumed arrogance. Next time your doctor or MP tells you to have a jab, ask them if they do it to themselves, odd's are, they don't.
Lizzieisconfused.....I am sorry - I cannot get into debates with you on this - you are obviously a consipracy theorist...I'm just suprised you didn't post a link to AVN in your reply. See - I can debate this matter with many people on this site - people who are anti vax - but have researched both sides of the story. But I just can't do it with you- because you are coming from a place of emotion rather than fact. Sorry- but where is your evidence that vaxxs cause diseases to increase! WTF?
Where is JohnC with his data on what happened when that scandanavian country when they stopped vaxxing against diptheria??
"No vaccine is compulsory. Our government and media makes every effort to blind and BRIBE the populace into thinking otherwise, however, even if you produce a 'conscientious objection' you would still qualify for the immunisation subsidy - doesn't this tell you something?"
Err yes - it tells me that you have the right to choose not to vax......?
Yes - I'm sure those 800,000 people per year that now don't die of measles are really upset that we send them vaxxs..
Anyhow - the whole point was - which I think you fail to grasp lizzie - is that I understand that some people don't want to vax, and that is fine - I respect your choice, good on you for making an informed decision. I just find it insulting that you somehow think you are educated and well informed on the subject but pro vaxxers are only doing it because we are bribed:dizzy:
Opinionated
11-07-2009, 12:33
Loved your links Lizzie. They remind me of the X-files. I am interested in any peer reviewed academic articles. Blogs and sites written by conspiracy theorists prove nothing to me. Anyone can produce one of those as they are not accountable for the content in them.
To quote beebs;
Anyhow - the whole point was - which I think you fail to grasp lizzie - is that I understand that some people don't want to vax, and that is fine - I respect your choice, good on you for making an informed decision. I just find it insulting that you somehow think you are educated and well informed on the subject but pro vaxxers are only doing it because we are bribed:dizzy:
:iagree:
Hepatitis B is transmitted through blood and infected bodily fluids. This can occur through:
direct blood-to-blood contact
unprotected sex
unsterile needles
from an infected woman to her newborn during the delivery process.
On this note i dont see the chances of me ever catching hep b either.;)
The government, doctors, medical professionals dont like to tell you you have an option on vaxxing...I have never been asked if DS is vaxxed or not just if he is up to date which to me is them assuming we vax. Why is it not known??:detective:
Happy2be3
11-07-2009, 14:20
I LOVE how passionate we all are about this subject :flowerz::flowerz::flowerz:
P.s Lizzy, good luck with your homebirth! I hope it is an empowering and positive experience for you.. I envy you for being a first time mum and choosing to go all natural homebirth :)
BabelFish
11-07-2009, 18:20
It blows me away that people say the reason they do not vax is because they don't trust the government.
OMG.
Vaccination is about children's health and the community at large. I'd never be selfish and irresponsible enough to a) put my own child in preventable danger and b) put the community at large in danger. When decisions are made about the health of one's own children that is up to the parents, but when those decisions endanger the rest of us, it should be made a punishable offense.
Try 'pubmed' as your search engine instead of google. The majority of peer reviewed journals are likley to support vaccinations.
Opinionated
11-07-2009, 22:35
Google Scholar is fine, it is different to regular Google and recommended for use by academics. Pubmed is good too, but unfortunately too many articles are only accessible if you can log in as a a registered user. To be a registered user, you need to be a student whose institution has access to that particular search engine.
It blows me away that people say the reason they do not vax is because they don't trust the government.
OMG.
Vaccination is about children's health and the community at large. I'd never be selfish and irresponsible enough to a) put my own child in preventable danger and b) put the community at large in danger. When decisions are made about the health of one's own children that is up to the parents, but when those decisions endanger the rest of us, it should be made a punishable offense.
I cant believe people trust the government OMG!!!
Would you really honestly be 100% comftable handing over all rights as a parent to the government to inject your child with whatever they want??:eek:
Do you really think freedom of choice is a punishable offense?
If we started giving the government that much control where would we be? Where would it end?
BabelFish
12-07-2009, 11:03
Hehehe - I don't trust the government. Within logical reason, to a point.
I also don't think there is some big, evil, scary conspiracy to - what was it? - "inject our children with whatever they want". What on earth could be achieved by doing that?
Ooooooh I know - mind control!! That must be why they promote vaccines. They're not really trying to help us make our society a safer place with better public health and less fatal, preventable disease - they want to gain control of our minds and bodies, to make us march like robots and dance to their tune ... dun dun dunnnnnnnnnnnnn.
And no, I don't think freedom of choice should be a punishable offence. I believe choices that endanger an entire community should be.
Hehehe - I don't trust the government. Within logical reason, to a point.
I also don't think there is some big, evil, scary conspiracy to - what was it? - "inject our children with whatever they want". What on earth could be achieved by doing that?
Ooooooh I know - mind control!! That must be why they promote vaccines. They're not really trying to help us make our society a safer place with better public health and less fatal, preventable disease - they want to gain control of our minds and bodies, to make us march like robots and dance to their tune ... dun dun dunnnnnnnnnnnnn.
And no, I don't think freedom of choice should be a punishable offence. I believe choices that endanger an entire community should be.
So you think the governmemnt should make vax compulsory?
Do you think people who dont vax should be punished?
BabelFish
12-07-2009, 11:56
In a word, yes.
If there is a good reason not to vaccinate your child (and there are some children who are better off without vaccines at a young age) then they can be granted an exemption. But other than that, the simple answer to your question is yes. Absolutely. Without any doubt in my mind at all.
Many years ago, people thought wearing seatbelts was stupid and pointless. And look how many lives it saved. And not wearing one now is against the law - even though not wearing one technically doesn't put any other people in danger. In accidents, some people are actually harmed by their seatbelts. But those numbers are far, far outweighed by the positives of wearing one.
If you do something that knowingly puts your child and the community at large at risk, you should be punished. Seatbelts, smoking in cars with children - it's all part of the same message. PUBLIC HEALTH. And these things are against the law. So I hope, soon, that willful anti-vaxxing will be against the law too.
Well i think your outlook is very sad for the future of freedom in our country:(
Im happy to agree to disagree :shakehands:
TripleTime
12-07-2009, 13:46
In a word, yes.
If there is a good reason not to vaccinate your child (and there are some children who are better off without vaccines at a young age) then they can be granted an exemption. But other than that, the simple answer to your question is yes. Absolutely. Without any doubt in my mind at all.
Many years ago, people thought wearing seatbelts was stupid and pointless. And look how many lives it saved. And not wearing one now is against the law - even though not wearing one technically doesn't put any other people in danger. In accidents, some people are actually harmed by their seatbelts. But those numbers are far, far outweighed by the positives of wearing one.
If you do something that knowingly puts your child and the community at large at risk, you should be punished. Seatbelts, smoking in cars with children - it's all part of the same message. PUBLIC HEALTH. And these things are against the law. So I hope, soon, that willful anti-vaxxing will be against the law too.
:iagree:
Imagine the relief the public health system would have if vaxxing was mandatory.
Well i think your outlook is very sad for the future of freedom in our country:(
Im happy to agree to disagree :shakehands:
I trust the govt,my doc, my kids teachers,basically all the people that we should be trusting with our kids health and safety, It is not a sad out look, some countries do have compulsory vaccinations, its about time Australia started to follow.
I trust the govt,my doc, my kids teachers,basically all the people that we should be trusting with our kids health and safety, It is not a sad out look, some countries do have compulsory vaccinations, its about time Australia started to follow.
There is only one country in the world where vaxing is Mandatory, and that is the good 'Ol US of A...the land of Freedom. There is currently a massive movement underway over there, of parents who are starting to question the safety of vaccines and turning their backs on the procedure, simply because they are forced to do it.
I think if vaxing was to be made Mandatory in Australia, the same thing would happen here. People DO NOT like being dictated to be our Govt. There are currently alot of fence sitters on the issue of vaxing and if all of a sudden we were forced to do it, those fence sitters would come down on the anti-vax side.
I really believe it would be extremely detrimental if the powers that be took away our free rights. There would be a massive backlash. They are onto a good thing by allowing people to think that they are doing it for their own good. We have extremely high vax rates ATM. The highest in the history of vaxing in this country. It would spell disaster to make it Mandatory. JMO.
There is only one country in the world where vaxing is Mandatory, and that is the good 'Ol US of A...the land of Freedom. There is currently a massive movement underway over there, of parents who are starting to question the safety of vaccines and turning their backs on the procedure, simply because they are forced to do it.
I think if vaxing was to be made Mandatory in Australia, the same thing would happen here. People DO NOT like being dictated to be our Govt. There are currently alot of fence sitters on the issue of vaxing and if all of a sudden we were forced to do it, those fence sitters would come down on the anti-vax side.
I really believe it would be extremely detrimental if the powers that be took away our free rights. There would be a massive backlash. They are onto a good thing by allowing people to think that they are doing it for their own good. We have extremely high vax rates ATM. The highest in the history of vaxing in this country. It would spell disaster to make it Mandatory. JMO.
I think that the govt has started to make very slow movements in making it compilsory, small things like CCB being taken away if you dont vax, they are going to do it it is just a matter of time and how they go about it.. but there is always that fantastic CO form that all the non vaxers rely on, that is probably standing in the govt's way.:o
:iagree:Imagine the relief the public health system would have if vaxxing was mandatory.
Imagine the savings if they stopped giving the Hepatitis B vaccine to newborns with little or no risk of contracting it!!! Those vaccines cost the government a bundle and they are unnecessary in most newborns.
I get puzzled when people talk about vaccines saving money or relieving public health. Isn't it a very small percentage of people who get hospitalised for measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, whooping cough? Polio, diptheria.....anyone seen any cases lately? Of course, I know there are cases that get hospitalised.....but are our hospitals really brimming at the seams with VPD's??? Isn't our immunisation rate something like 90%? How is this happening then:confused: THIS IS A GENUINE QUESTION.....
Fuchsia!
12-07-2009, 17:23
:iagree:
Imagine the relief the public health system would have if vaxxing was mandatory.
I don't believe that would be the case at all :no:
Well if they made vaxing compulsory here, the govt would have to set up a vaccine damage compensation fund like they have in the States...AND have transparent reporting of vaccine adverse reactions.
Doesn't anyone ever wonder why America pays out millions of dollars in compensation for vaccine damage, and has so many documented adverse reactions.....and yet here adverse reactions are hardly even acknowledged? Something doesn't add up. The vaccines and schedules are similar if not the same.
BabelFish
12-07-2009, 17:51
Well i think your outlook is very sad for the future of freedom in our country:(
Im happy to agree to disagree :shakehands:
I think that many who thought that making not wearing seatbelts against the law would take away our rights, who disagree with the laws against smoking in cars with children, who probably think that it's still ok to hit your child with a belt - they would all agree that my view is sad for the future of freedom in our country. I'm sure they thought the same thing when those laws came in. Along with the one about it being compulsory to wear helmets on bikes.
And look, we still have freedom.
I am all for freedom of choice if those choices don't impact on society as a whole - as not vaccinating does. I'm always so surprised by how uncaring people are about ALL of society, just because of a view of how they want things done for their own children.
So it's my belief that your outlook is very sad for the future of public health in our country. But I, too, am happy to agree to disagree - and am also happy that we could both air our views without getting into a fight about it :yes:
As for why there are still cases of mumps, measles etc in hospitals (was it Harriet who asked?), well, that is because there are about 10% of the population (using your statistics) who aren't vaccinated. There's your answer.
Vaccinate everyone, and these diseases go away. Forever. Like polio, smallpox and diptheria have in this country (and countries who vaccinate against them).
Honestly, if the answers to these questions aren't known by people who don't vax, that's a bit scary, because it just shows that there has NOT been an adequate amount of research done to make the anti-vaxxing decision.
And there are always going to be people who buck laws. There are always going to be people who don't wear seatbelts, or helmets when they ride their bikes. Who will smoke in the car with their kids - or in the home with their kids. Who will continue to take advantage of the health system when it suits them and reject and vilify it the rest of the time. Even were it against the law, there would still be people who would choose not to vaccinate. And hopefully, if caught, they would be punished for it, as they should be.
But I haven't seen a huge underground seatbelt movement (why not? Seatbelts injure a small proportion of the population in accidents). I haven't seen an underground smoking movement (why not? There are literally thousands of people who hate the new laws). I haven't seen an underground `smack your kids' movement (why not? There are a lot of people who swear by it).
There are some children who shouldn't be vaccinated - and that's fine. Even pro-vaxxers will agree to that and understand and accept it. That's life.
But if it were made compulsory I have large doubts that there it would result in an underground anti-vax movement - and if there were one, I'm pretty sure most people would take it less seriously than imagined. Why? Because not vaccinating puts ALL our kids in danger. All of them. So thank goodness only 10% of the population are that selfish.
Fuchsia!
12-07-2009, 18:12
So after vaxxes are made compulsory you would be happy that only C/S's are preformed only in the extremely rare cases where its actually needed. All woman will have to give birth in a hospital and induced.
Then perhaps make breastfeeding compulsory too. Take the burden off the health system. On;y formula is allowed to used in the 5% of the rare cases that a mother cannot B/F
Then perhaps they should make RIC compulsory too, to also take the burden off the health care system.
Chesby are you fully vaxxed? Is your family and friends all fully vaxxed? How about your children, all fully vaxxed? Even the ones that aren't on the shedule?
Are your children vaxxed for
cervical cancer
hep A
HPV
Influenza
Japanese encephalitis
Lyme disease
Monkeypox
Rabies
Shingles
Smallpox
Tuberculosis
Typhoid
Yellow fever?
(http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/diphtheria/default.htm)
JabberJaw
12-07-2009, 18:22
Imagine the savings if they stopped giving the Hepatitis B vaccine to newborns with little or no risk of contracting it!!! Those vaccines cost the government a bundle and they are unnecessary in most newborns.
I get puzzled when people talk about vaccines saving money or relieving public health. Isn't it a very small percentage of people who get hospitalised for measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, whooping cough? Polio, diptheria.....anyone seen any cases lately? Of course, I know there are cases that get hospitalised.....but are our hospitals really brimming at the seams with VPD's??? Isn't our immunisation rate something like 90%? How is this happening then:confused: THIS IS A GENUINE QUESTION.....
I don't think hospitals are "brimming at the seams' as you put it with cases of Vaxx preventable disease cases at all. I think that is an over exaggeration.
Actually, in my personal experience, it is un vaxxed children, immune compromised children and young babies who are not fully vaxxed who are filling the sick beds, as well as adults who haven't up kept there vaxx status. Rarely, and i mean rarely is a fully vaxxed child hospitalised with a vaxx preventable disease.
In the last 3 years alone, i have lost a baby to a vaxx preventable disease, had my son hospitalised and close to death for a blood condition, where he happened to also pick up chicken pox (un vaxxed due to blood disorder) had my 4 month old DD almost hospitalised with chicken pox ( different case to my sons, 1 yr after he had his) and my 6 yr old DD was also nearly hospitalised with severe chicken pox and secondary infection....she was too un vaxxed, why you may ask, well she was over the age when the free schedule came available, i was not overly worried about chicken pox since it is a supposive 'mild' illness and didn't really have the money to fork ot $75 odd dollars for the vaxx.....bad idea. Really bad, i kick myself daily when i remember how only nearly a year ago, she was so ill, was dehydrated and was in agony. I am reminded everyday when i look at her beautiful face and see the few large scars she bares, and i am reminded again, when i look at the numerous scars on her body.
So if you do further research, you will probably find it is un vaxxed children filling the sick beds. You will find its also adults, who's vaxx status has worn off over time, and then lastly, you will find there is the small percent of children who the vaxx does not work for.....this is the reason we NEED the vaxx rates high, so we can protect those that cant be protected.
I find it hard to comprehend that non vaxxes are happy to let there children catch the 'wild strain' virus and i have recently seen a thread where a mother wanted to take her child to a 'chicken pox party' to purposely inflict her child with an illness....to me, personally, that is really really odd that you refuse a vaxx, but intentionally want your child to become inflicted with a possibly life threatening illness. If the illnesses where so mild in the first place (like non vaxxers claim them to be) then why was a vaxx made in the first place??? WHY, well that's easy.....VPD's kill, and often, and the only way to protect ourselves is with high vaxx rates in our country. Simple,really.
BabelFish
12-07-2009, 18:25
I, my husband and my children are vaccinated according to current regulations and guidelines, yes.
And I was waiting for someone to come up with the breast vs bottle debate, and the c-section one.
Breastfeeding and bottlefeeding are both good for your children. I would rather see more women breastfeed but that is not a public health choice. Having tried and tried to breastfeed full time, and also having bottle-fed my baby, I haven't put her or anyone else in danger through my choices.
Yes, I would dearly love to see the c-section rate lowered drastically but women having c-sections don't put ALL children in danger.
I would like to see people who smoke charged more for insurance - you bet. Their decision puts a HUGE burden on the public health system. Same for people who are obese due to inaction and poor lifestyle decisions (not illness). You bet. We are too selfish as a society. If everyone started thinking about the consequences their actions had on others, the world would be a much nicer and safer place.
So please, come up with an example that puts the whole of society in danger the way non-vaxxing does and we may have a debate worth having. Breastfeeding, c-sections - that's not even on the same page, and we both know it. If you're going to have a counterargument, it needs to at least be one that bears some similarities to the issue at hand.
Vaxxing isn't about `choice' or freedom of choice. Or it shouldn't be. If you think it is, then your priorities are very messed up (you plural, not you personally). I have a `choice' to become an alcoholic, don't I. But why would I? That's just stupid. I have a `choice' to beat my daughter until she is quiet - but why would I? Again, just stupid.
Vaxxing isn't a freedom of choice issue, it's a public health issue (amongst other things).
reAllytee
12-07-2009, 18:48
I have to laugh when people state things like " if vaxxing was compulsary we wouldnt see such a burden on our health care system " ... Really makes me laugh & I am more in the pro-vax camp with an unvaxxed son.
That being said really guys remember this isnt a debate thread ...
Fuchsia!
12-07-2009, 18:54
I, my husband and my children are vaccinated according to current regulations and guidelines, yes.
what about the others? Your child might pass on one of those other diseases onto mine. Thats pretty selfish don't you think that you haven't vaxxed against the other diseases?
And I was waiting for someone to come up with the breast vs bottle debate, and the c-section one.
Breastfeeding and bottlefeeding are both good for your children. I would rather see more women breastfeed but that is not a public health choice. Having tried and tried to breastfeed full time, and also having bottle-fed my baby, I haven't put her or anyone else in danger through my choices.Well actually formula feeding does put pressure on the health system. Im not sure about australia stats but in the UK it's estimated that a 10% increase in breastfeeding rates in the UK would save the health service a million pounds a year in reduced ear infections, gastro and asthma.
So because you chose to FF means that my child may have to wait longer on waiting lists, more money is being put towards helping children who have been FF which does impact on society as a whole.
Yes, I would dearly love to see the c-section rate lowered drastically but women having c-sections don't put ALL children in danger. And not vaxxing does not put all children in danger either.
Again C/S puts a large amount of pressure on the healthcare system as well. While a mother is having an un necessary C/S another patient gets bumped down the list. More money is spent on un necessary C/S when it could go towards other health areas that are very important and could save other childrens lives. Again impacting on society as a whole.
So please, come up with an example that puts the whole of society in danger the way non-vaxxing does and we may have a debate worth having. Breastfeeding, c-sections - that's not even on the same page, and we both know it. If you're going to have a counterargument, it needs to at least be one that bears some similarities to the issue at hand.And seat belts are on the same page :laughing:
So how does seat belts impact on society as a whole?
So tell me how does me not vaxxing impact on society? That small 10% that don't vax? How does that impact on society as a whole?
Vaxxing isn't about `choice' or freedom of choice. Or it shouldn't be. If you think it is, then your priorities are very messed up (you plural, not you personally). I have a `choice' to become an alcoholic, don't I. But why would I? That's just stupid. I have a `choice' to beat my daughter until she is quiet - but why would I? Again, just stupid.I have the choice to keep my child safe. My one and priority is to keep MY child safe and healthy.
If that is selfish then so be it, i don't care. I think its very selfish that you put everyone elses child 1st before your own.
If there was a way that i could keep my child safe and the community as well then of course i would. But until then my priority is my children.
Just because you have come to the conclusion that vaxxes are safe for your children doesn't meant that i have to as well.
Im not vaxxing to be a pain in the ***, im not doing it to **** everyone off. Im not doing it to be difficult.
Im doing it because i love my child, i want my child to be healthy and i want the best for my child.
I have spent nearly a year researching as much as i can about vaccines. I have trawled over for hours each night. I have spoken to health professional, i have read books and search medical journals.
I did not take it lightly, believe me. I respect your decision to vax your child. I respect that you came to a different conclusion to me. I respect that you love your child and you are doing the best you can for your child. I respect that you have researched (well i hope you have) and you have made an informed decision for the health of your child.
If and when i believe that the benefits of vaxxing outweigh not vaxxing i will be the 1st in the line.
And please DO NOT call me stupid. That is totally uncalled for and quite pathetic.
missie_mack
12-07-2009, 19:17
Actually, in my personal experience, it is un vaxxed children, immune compromised children and young babies who are not fully vaxxed who are filling the sick beds, as well as adults who haven't up kept there vaxx status. Rarely, and i mean rarely is a fully vaxxed child hospitalised with a vaxx preventable disease.
Interesting. Definately not the case in our local hospitals childrens ward from discussions I had with a ward nurse particularly relating to the recent 'outbreak' in whooping cough.
Anyone with any understanding of medications etc would entirely understand it would be a slippery slope for the government to force anyone to administer a medication for something they may or may not ever get first vaccines and then what?
I personally find it plain rude and shows a lack of information when anyone states that not vaccinating is selfish and/or claims that everyone should do it to protect the weak and old in society. I wonder why the same courtesy could not be used when people choose to vaccinate their children for chicken pox, the government themself admit that the introduction of the vaccine will lead to increased rates of shingles and more deaths in the community for the next 70 years particularly the elderly-
But hey there is a vaccine for shingles but its not on the PBS and costs around $250 a shot and you have to get it updated even couple of years :rolleyes: I wonder how many aged pensioners have $250 to throw around?
BabelFish
12-07-2009, 19:22
I didn't call you stupid - please point out where I did?
And I also don't put the rest of the community before the health of my child - but unlike you (as you've stated) it's a top priority FOR ME along with the health of my child.
I agreed with you in my post and said I would definitely like to see lower c-section rates, and anything else (including smoking and obesity) be less of a burden to the tax system. I would FAR rather see many more mothers breastfeed than currently do. And I exhausted every, single possibility available to me NOT to have to formula feed, so in that sense I was most definitely being responsible towards my community and my public health system.
Seatbelts were brought up to do with the `laws against...' argument - NOT the vaccination argument, so yes in the sense that it was raised it was entirely relevant.
If society determines that some of the vaccines you have mentioned that are not on the regular vaccination scheme are necessary I will indeed have them done. I had the whooping cough vaccine as soon as it was recommended (and paid quite a bit for it, too), and I have the flu vaccine every year. My parents also had the whooping cough vaccine, and so did DP and his parents. We get all the vaccines that are currently recommended to keep our children, ourselves, and our society safe. The ONLY vaccine I don't have is the cervical cancer one, and that is because I don't fall into the age range. Heck, even my dogs are fully vaccinated. So no, I'm not selfish in that regard, and I'm not putting anyone in danger.
All of my boosters are up-to-date, too. I couldn't catch anything that could put your child in danger except a common cold. So yep, I'm pretty happy with that.
Lastly, if you don't know why not vaccinating puts the whole of society in danger, then I'm afraid you are not as informed as you think you are. That is basic knowledge and if you don't know it, then you still have more to learn before you can tell me you're fully informed.
Fuchsia!
12-07-2009, 19:34
I didn't call you stupid - please point out where I did?
And I also don't put the rest of the community before the health of my child - but unlike you (as you've stated) it's a top priority FOR ME along with the health of my child.
I agreed with you in my post and said I would definitely like to see lower c-section rates, and anything else (including smoking and obesity) be less of a burden to the tax system. I would FAR rather see many more mothers breastfeed than currently do. And I exhausted every, single possibility available to me NOT to have to formula feed, so in that sense I was most definitely being responsible towards my community and my public health system.
Seatbelts were brought up to do with the `laws against...' argument - NOT the vaccination argument, so yes in the sense that it was raised it was entirely relevant.
If society determines that some of the vaccines you have mentioned that are not on the regular vaccination scheme are necessary I will indeed have them done. I had the whooping cough vaccine as soon as it was recommended (and paid quite a bit for it, too), and I have the flu vaccine every year. My parents also had the whooping cough vaccine, and so did DP and his parents. We get all the vaccines that are currently recommended to keep our children, ourselves, and our society safe. The ONLY vaccine I don't have is the cervical cancer one, and that is because I don't fall into the age range. Heck, even my dogs are fully vaccinated. So no, I'm not selfish in that regard, and I'm not putting anyone in danger.
Lastly, if you don't know why not vaccinating puts the whole of society in danger, then I'm afraid you are not as informed as you think you are. That is basic knowledge and if you don't know it, then you still have more to learn before you can tell me you're fully informed.
OMG i am going to go and get my kids vaxxed cause Chesby says so!
I can guarantee you that i have researched fully and i have made a very informed decision. Just because it doesn't go with what your beliefs and research has told you doesn't mean im not informed.
I have just came to a different conclusion as you. And you should respect that like i respect that you came to a different conclusion to me
All of my boosters are up-to-date, too. I couldn't catch anything that could put your child in danger except a common cold. So yep, I'm pretty happy with that.Wow maybe your the one that isn't informed properly. Vaccines are not 100% effective. You could quite easily pass something onto my child.[/QUOTE]
At the moment vaccination isn't complusory, and thank goodness for that! Better lock your kids up Chesby, my unvaxxed kid is gonna get cha!
As for the FF, maybe you just didn't try hard enough? Maybe the government needs to make it compulsory that a Dr will tell you if you tried hard enough and decide if you can use formula or not.
Actually :idea: Lets all send out kids off to government camp and let the government raise our kids, inject them with whatever they want, feed them what they want.
Wow imagine that!
reAllytee
12-07-2009, 19:37
I couldn't catch anything that could put your child in danger except a common cold. So yep, I'm pretty happy with that.
Ok I cant help myself ... Really cant ...
Can you PLEASE tell me about the above because quite frankly I am sitting here trying not to fall off my chair laughing because you are claiming others to not be as informed as they should be & really that statement above actually says the opposite.
BabelFish
12-07-2009, 19:48
If that makes you laugh then so be it. Yes, I made a generalisation - and I do acknowledge that vaccinations aren't 100% effective in some cases. Which is an argument against having them, that's for sure. What I should have said is that I am confident, with my vaccination history, that the danger I would pose to somebody else is extremely minimal, and ALSO, that I have done everything in my power, that I can do, to make sure that I am as small a risk to others as possible. That would have been a better way to put it.
It's clear that there are very passionate people with regards to this argument and yes, I'm certainly one of them. I don't believe in endangering society as a whole - so all of the arguments against vaccination are not enough for me to outweigh that one issue. I cannot ever understand how anyone else could be comfortable with doing that, because at the end of the day, if society isn't safe then your own child isn't safe, and that's why it should be so important. Looking after society means the same thing as looking after your own child, to me.
I remember once when a colleague said to me `what difference does it make if I have three twenty minute showers a day? I'm just one person - one person can't affect anything'. I HATE that. If a million people had that attitude, we'd have no water left at all.
Having a group consciousness is extremely important to me and I think it should be to everyone. Life isn't just about your own family, not in the larger sense.
The fact is, that the small proportion of those children who aren't vaccinated are pretty protected anyway, because vaccination has been responsible for eradicating soooo many fatal illnesses. But the more people who don't vaccinate, the less protected the whole of society will be, and the less protected the whole of society is, the less protected your own child is. So, looking after the community in which you live has the absolute maximum chance of protecting your child in the best way possible.
Jaxcoop - I'm sorry if I haven't addressed all of your sarcasm. I assume it's just because you've lost your temper. I'm also sorry if you think I called you stupid - you still haven't pointed out to me where I said that. Yes, I had to formula feed, and I know exactly how hard I tried. What was your decision for formula-feeding? I avoided an emergency c-section by being absolutely determined to have my baby vaginally, even though it cost me more than a litre of blood and an night in ICU afterwards - what was your reason for having a c-section? I assume it wasn't an elective one. Like I said, formula feeding and c-sections aren't actively putting the rest of society at risk, not the way anti-vaxxing does.
I have to be completely honest and say no, I don't respect your decision not to vaccinate your child. I respect your freedom to make that decision - I really do. But the decision itself, no, I don't respect it at all. My beliefs have led me that way, as yours have led you your way. The old quote `I don't like what you're saying, but I will fight for your right to say it' comes to mind. I don't respect that you don't vaccinate, but I do respect that it's the choice you've made for your own family.
How did this turn into a slanging match about ffing?
Chesby - great quote ' I don't like what you are saying but I'll fight for your right to say it' pretty much the way I feel about vaxxing too.
I don't ever want anyone to be forced into doing things they don't want to do - but geez I'd love it if 100% of the population wanted to vaxx!
BabelFish
12-07-2009, 21:42
Hehe - because ffing is relevant to everything, apparently :rolleyes:
I just saw your ticker - twins!! Yay!! I've always wanted twins. Only six weeks to go - how awesome. Good luck! :D
Happy2be3
12-07-2009, 22:16
Geeze girls!!!!!!!:yelclap::yelclap:
I am loving reading your debates, keep it up!
P.s: In case anyone didnt know...I'm on the selectively vaxxing side of the fence btw;)
lizzieiscontented
13-07-2009, 00:21
what about the others? Your child might pass on one of those other diseases onto mine. Thats pretty selfish don't you think that you haven't vaxxed against the other diseases?
Well actually formula feeding does put pressure on the health system. Im not sure about australia stats but in the UK it's estimated that a 10% increase in breastfeeding rates in the UK would save the health service a million pounds a year in reduced ear infections, gastro and asthma.
So because you chose to FF means that my child may have to wait longer on waiting lists, more money is being put towards helping children who have been FF which does impact on society as a whole.
And not vaxxing does not put all children in danger either.
Again C/S puts a large amount of pressure on the healthcare system as well. While a mother is having an un necessary C/S another patient gets bumped down the list. More money is spent on un necessary C/S when it could go towards other health areas that are very important and could save other childrens lives. Again impacting on society as a whole.
And seat belts are on the same page :laughing:
So how does seat belts impact on society as a whole?
So tell me how does me not vaxxing impact on society? That small 10% that don't vax? How does that impact on society as a whole?
I have the choice to keep my child safe. My one and priority is to keep MY child safe and healthy.
If that is selfish then so be it, i don't care. I think its very selfish that you put everyone elses child 1st before your own.
If there was a way that i could keep my child safe and the community as well then of course i would. But until then my priority is my children.
Just because you have come to the conclusion that vaxxes are safe for your children doesn't meant that i have to as well.
Im not vaxxing to be a pain in the ***, im not doing it to **** everyone off. Im not doing it to be difficult.
Im doing it because i love my child, i want my child to be healthy and i want the best for my child.
I have spent nearly a year researching as much as i can about vaccines. I have trawled over for hours each night. I have spoken to health professional, i have read books and search medical journals.
I did not take it lightly, believe me. I respect your decision to vax your child. I respect that you came to a different conclusion to me. I respect that you love your child and you are doing the best you can for your child. I respect that you have researched (well i hope you have) and you have made an informed decision for the health of your child.
If and when i believe that the benefits of vaxxing outweigh not vaxxing i will be the 1st in the line.
And please DO NOT call me stupid. That is totally uncalled for and quite pathetic.
We agree with you. Thank you for saying it so eloquently! Just also wanted to say that the only point I have ever really wanted to make is that as conscientious parents, I hope that everyone is aware of all the ingredients that are in vaccines. Many of which, IMO, are much too toxic for me to be willing to inject it straight into my child's bloodstream.
While our public health care system is bursting at the seams, keep in mind that major pharmaceutical companies are making record profits again and again.
P.S. Oh and seatbelts don't cause autism.
lizzieiscontented
13-07-2009, 00:29
Actually :idea: Lets all send out kids off to government camp and let the government raise our kids, inject them with whatever they want, feed them what they want.
Wow imagine that!
:laughing: Sounds good to me :barf:
lizzieiscontented
13-07-2009, 00:42
The fact is, that the small proportion of those children who aren't vaccinated are pretty protected anyway, because vaccination has been responsible for eradicating soooo many fatal illnesses. But the more people who don't vaccinate, the less protected the whole of society will be, and the less protected the whole of society is, the less protected your own child is. So, looking after the community in which you live has the absolute maximum chance of protecting your child in the best way possible.
My X-Files link was supposed to show proof that the notion that vaccines have eliminated epidemics is a lie. In all cases that governments cite the epidemics naturally leveled out BEFORE vaccines were introduced and, in most cases, the graph actually shows an increase in cases directly after the vaccine was introduced. Hmmmmmmmmmm. On the other hand, good nutrition, clean water and good hygiene has done wonders for our natural immunity.
and gee, I wonder why SOO many people seem so ill all of the time. Shouldn't vaccines be making us all super-dooper healthy. I look at my brother's fully vaxed kids and they are always sick. I guess this can't have anything to do with the vaccines. I still can't stress the fact that our friends with unvaxed kids have such bright, healthy complexions.
I have a question for the pro-vaxers - why do doctors recommend that a pregnant woman NOT be vaccinated?
BabelFish
13-07-2009, 07:55
P.S. Oh and seatbelts don't cause autism.
Neither do vaccines.
and gee, I wonder why SOO many people seem so ill all of the time. Shouldn't vaccines be making us all super-dooper healthy.
If you think that, then perhaps you don't really understand what vaccinating is all about?
My daughter has been sick once since she was born - that's once. She is vaccinated. I have been sick once in two and a half years. I am vaccinated.
So no, I would suggest that your observation doesn't have anything to do with the vaccines, as you say.
I hold nothing against pro-vaxxs but i find most pro-vaxs a little naive. Tell me how much do you know of what goes into vacinations or where the virus comes from or whether it is a live virus or not - how about how many people died when given dodgy vaccinations or what the real long term effects of these viruses are eg chicken pox vaccine and shingles in 50 years - how can you catch a disease if you are already vaxxed - how were vaccinations were tested - why are there still diseases if vaccinations are so good - have you actaully educated yourself about vaccinations and i mean reading medical journals not just the pharmacutical leaflets and goverment info. MOST people i know who vaccinate do not even think about it apart from reading the material the goverment hands them at their free shots or some properganda there local gp has told them. I have spent hours upon hours trolling medical journals, medical websites as well as dodgy anti-vax and pro vax websites - i have read every book i can get my hand - i have read both sides of the argument and feel i have made the best choice i can for my child. If you are educated spent as many hours researching the subject and came to the conclusion that vaccination is the way to go - good for you but MOST pro-vaxxs do not go to the effort that non-vaxxs do to reasearch it.
I think that this is a battle that neither side can win but i really do think that both sides should be properly informed. Most non- vaxxs are more than happy for people to get there vaxxs if they choose to they just want people to be more infomed. Noone is going to call a pro -vaxx a bad mother becuase she chooses to vaxx her kids but as a non-vaxx we have to put up with this everytime someone asks about your vaxxs. I am a smart well read mother and feel i have made the best choice that i can for my child i do not need to be judged by some pro-vax who feels the need to defend the choice they made by feeding me wrong info that they have not even properly reseached.
Vaccines are so good and 10% of people dont vax then why is everyone so worried about non vaxxers.....is becoming a new trend to not vax? If so why? What is it we have lost faith in?
If it isnt a new trend then agaion...why are people still for legalising vax??
BabelFish
13-07-2009, 08:03
I hold nothing against pro-vaxxs but i find most pro-vaxs a little naive. Tell me how much do you know of what goes into vacinations or where the virus comes from or whether it is a live virus or not - how about how many people died when given dodgy vaccinations or what the real long term effects of these viruses are eg chicken pox vaccine and shingles in 50 years - how can you catch a disease if you are already vaxxed - how were vaccinations were tested -
All really excellent questions that yes, I think every parent should be asking.
Why are there still diseases if vaccinations are so good.
The answer to this one should be self-explanatory and you shouldn't need a medical journal to find the answer to it. Especially if you understand the nature of disease, the immune system and know anything about epidemiology.
Vaccines are so good and 10% of people dont vax then why is everyone so worried about non vaxxers.....is becoming a new trend to not vax? If so why? What is it we have lost faith in?
If it isnt a new trend then agaion...why are people still for legalising vax??
Again i will ask...why so worried if its just a SMALL part of the popultaion.
Is it becoming more common to not vax and if yes why?
BabelFish
13-07-2009, 08:13
In answer to the first part of your question, I've already answered that in the vax section - and again, if it's something you don't already know, then you need to find out, because it is a very basic facet of the vaccinating argument.
Secondly, I would like to know the answer to that too. When something becomes a fad, a lot of people want to do it. Hopefully when they begin to understand the greater danger to the community, many of them will understand the risks involved to everyone, not just their own children.
I need to qualify my argument by saying that I don't think vaccines should be given lightly nor without education. I just see the evidence in front of me and feel very confident that the HUGE benefits outweight the small risks, and that by vaccinating my children I am doing the best thing for them and the community at large.
Oh, and I've edited this post to add, in your thread in the vax section, you asked about how a small percentage of the population can scare the larger majority, and another member there answered you too. She caught rubella off an unvaccinated child when she was pregnant and her baby was stillborn. There is a real life example to you of how the decisions of a few can affect the innocent around them - i.e. the greater community.
regarding the burden on our health care system...
my then unvaxed dd shook the health care system when she was sick with chicken pox...
2 wks in intensive care, round the clock nurse care, physio, the list goes on, and BTW, i wonder if the current non vaxing taxpayers care that my dd chews up thousands of your dollars each yr ATM with physio and home care:rolleyes:
BabelFish
13-07-2009, 09:59
Just to clarify - I never mentioned anywhere the burden on our health care system. I said that non-vaxxing vs vaxxing is a matter of public health. That is different to the `public health system'. They are different concepts.
Damn, smokers are a massive burden our our public health system, so are obese people, so are people who do drugs, so are people who are alcoholics, so are a LOT of people. That's got nothing to do with the broader community concept of public health as it stands in relation to this argument. They are entirely different things that I think some people are getting mixed up.
Public health is defined as "the science and art of preventing disease, prolonging life and promoting health through the organized efforts and informed choices of society, organizations, public and private, communities and individuals."
That's different to our system, which is hospitals, carers etc...
I just saw your ticker - twins!! Yay!! I've always wanted twins. Only six weeks to go - how awesome. Good luck! :D
Thanks - I'm actually booked to have them in 2 weeks and 2 days:eek::D
P.S. Oh and seatbelts don't cause autism.
There has been no proven link that vaxxes do either (please don't bring up Dr Wakefild - it will just set your whole point back!) - I suppose we will just have to wait for the results of the new study they are to conduct in America to be sure either way.....but I am sure that they do not.
I hold nothing against pro-vaxxs but i find most pro-vaxs a little naive.
...
i do not need to be judged by some pro-vax who feels the need to defend the choice they made by feeding me wrong info that they have not even properly reseached.
Now who is judging who???I'm well read and informed and as many people know I love looking at those consipercy theory anti vax sites as much as the next person, they are funny. I don't just rely on GPs and Government websites at all. I know what ingredients are in vaxxes and I still think that the benifits outweigh the risks. But then again - I have seen the devastation VDPS can cause first hand, and that has alot to do with my deicion to vax.
Also - I wonder at the point of pp brinng up being vaxxed against rabies - a) we don't have it here, and b) my child is not a dog or a wolf who lived in American and may bite your child - so really - what has that got to do with the price of fish?:confused::confused:
As for all the comments re: if vaxxing is so good why do you care that we don't do it. You all know very well that we are thinking Herd immunity - why do we have to continually go down that route?
Yes they are not 100% effective - but I'd rather my child had excellent protection rather than none at all.
BabelFish
13-07-2009, 10:13
Herd immunity, public health - these things don't seem to be a consideration at all of the non-vaxxers in this thread. In fact, a few have actually asked what they are, or got public health confused with the public health system.
?????
If you don't even know what they are, how can you say you've made an informed decision about vaxxing? These are basic tenets of vaccination theory and principles of epidemiology.
Damn, smokers are a massive burden our our public health system, so are obese people, so are people who do drugs, so are people who are alcoholics, so are a LOT of people. That's got nothing to do with the broader community concept of public health as it stands in relation to this argument.
...
Well actually i think second hand smoke does effect the broader comuntity....
Everyone will never be vax...there will always be too young, too old, to sick etc so your "herding" will never be.
I think vax is great...just not for me. If you can prove they are 100% safe and there are none what so ever side effects i will happily get vax.
If wea re going to go the extremes of giving the government the right to inject us with whatever they deem appropriate then they better ban cigarettes, cars, chemicals, electricity, pools, baths etc cause i believe they are just as dangerous if your going to these extents
The report finds that the top five causes of injury deaths are:
Road crashes: They kill 260 000 children a year and injure about 10 million. They are the leading cause of death among 10-19 year olds and a leading cause of child disability.
Drowning: It kills more than 175 000 children a year. Every year, up to 3 million children survive a drowning incident. Due to brain damage in some survivors, non-fatal drowning has the highest average lifetime health and economic impact of any injury type.
Burns: Fire-related burns kill nearly 96 000 children a year and the death rate is eleven times higher in low- and middle-income countries than in high-income countries.
Falls: Nearly 47 000 children fall to their deaths every year, but hundreds of thousands more sustain less serious injuries from a fall.
Poisoning: More than 45 000 children die each year from unintended
Tenyrmiracle
13-07-2009, 11:33
The report finds that the top five causes of injury deaths are:
Road crashes: They kill 260 000 children a year and injure about 10 million. They are the leading cause of death among 10-19 year olds and a leading cause of child disability.
Drowning: It kills more than 175 000 children a year. Every year, up to 3 million children survive a drowning incident. Due to brain damage in some survivors, non-fatal drowning has the highest average lifetime health and economic impact of any injury type.
Burns: Fire-related burns kill nearly 96 000 children a year and the death rate is eleven times higher in low- and middle-income countries than in high-income countries.
Falls: Nearly 47 000 children fall to their deaths every year, but hundreds of thousands more sustain less serious injuries from a fall.
Poisoning: More than 45 000 children die each year from unintended
Those are some shocking numbers. I do wonder how different the results would be if noone vaccinated though.
Those are some shocking numbers. I do wonder how different the results would be if noone vaccinated though.
Im not saying people shouldnt vax..i think its great some people do but i dont feel like we SHOULD have to..i believe in freedom of choice in the matter. I dont see a need for making vax compulsory?
BabelFish
13-07-2009, 14:21
Sorry traseal - but herd immunity already exists. I think you should maybe do some searching on it, because I don't think I've been able to explain it properly to you.
Herding only becomes threatened when greater proportions of people stop vaxxing. Not when only a very small percentage don't vax, as in the reasoning that you state.
And yes, those are shocking numbers - I wish there was more we could do about them with my whole heart.
Only, out of all the things you list - I seriously doubt that any of them are done by choice, as is non-vaxxing. And if so, then it would be a tiny percentage and murder and suicide will always be with us, as much as I wish they weren't.
Fuchsia!
13-07-2009, 14:33
I don't entirely agree with herd immunity theory. Its very flawed.
[quote=Chesby05;3892100]Sorry traseal - but herd immunity already exists. I think you should maybe do some searching on it, because I don't think I've been able to explain it properly to you.
Herding only becomes threatened when greater proportions of people stop vaxxing. Not when only a very small percentage don't vax, as in the reasoning that you state.
Herd immnuity for which diseases? Like Tetanus for example?
I will hazzard a guess and say that I think that the vast majority of the population do not have immunity for most communicable diseases.
BabelFish
13-07-2009, 15:22
I don't entirely agree with herd immunity theory. Its very flawed.
I apologise for asking, but yesterday when we were - er - discussing this, you didn't seem to know what herd immunity even was, judging from some of your comments and questions. Like I said, I found that very surprising at the time.
What do you believe are its many flaws? I only ask because it's a topic (particularly with regard to my argument pro vax) that I find very interesting.
I haven't as yet been able to find anything to refute herd theory other than on anti-vax websites, which I don't find to be particularly unbiased sources. If you have other, more balanced sources, it would be awesome if you could forward or post them.
Sorry Miriam didn't see that before I posted this. Tetanus is not contagious - i.e., you can't `catch' it from someone else.
And your hazard is correct I would say, too. We can only vaccinate against diseases for which vaccinations actually exist. There are far more diseases than we can vaccinate against. That's why so much money is poured into research for vaccinations every year. The most recent that you would of course know about is the cervical cancer vaccine - just wonderful.
Fuchsia!
13-07-2009, 15:33
I apologise for asking, but yesterday when we were - er - discussing this, you didn't seem to know what herd immunity even was, judging from some of your comments and questions. Like I said, I found that very surprising at the time.
What do you believe are its many flaws? I only ask because it's a topic (particularly with regard to my argument pro vax) that I find very interesting.
I haven't as yet been able to find anything to refute herd theory other than on anti-vax websites, which I don't find to be particularly unbiased sources. If you have other, more balanced sources, it would be awesome if you could forward or post them.
Of course i know what the herd immunity theory is about. I can't actually even remembering discussing it with you actually. I might of overlooked it.
Personally unless all the population is vaccinated or at least have a high rate of vaccination then there is no such thing.
Im not anti vax, im far from it. I actually understand the theory of it and i think it wcould work.
What i don't agree with is injecting young babies and children with these chemical.
If they were to turn it around and have a vax schedule implemented for adults and left children/babies alone, i would be 1st in the line for the vaxxes (well most of them).
The amount of adults and the elderly that aren't vaxxed or had their booster is soooooo many. You just have to ask on this forum who is up to date and no one even knows what they have even had.
I am one of those that can't absorb rubella. I had it as a child and i have had about 4 vaxxes for it as an adult and it wears off within a year if im lucky.
I would never ever blame an unvaxxed child or their parent of i were to catch rubella. It is not their fault that my body doesn't absorb it. I do not expect another parent to use their child to protect me if they don't want to.
The major carrier for pertussis is the elderly and adults not children. Although that shows that the vax may work to an extent to help protect the children it is the older generation that is spreading it to the vulnerable and the babies that aren't able to be vaxxed
For the years 2005/2006
10% of pertussis cases were in people aged under 20 yrs old.
20% of pertussis cases were in people aged 20 – 34 yrs old.
70% of pertussis cases were in people aged over 35 years.
So the argument that unvaxxed children are the ones spreading the diseases is very flawed.
If we want to protect the children and the babies then we as adults should be the ones having the vaxxes. Not them.
lizzieiscontented
13-07-2009, 15:34
Hey Chesby05, do you get 15 dollars for every post you make just like doctors get for every jab they give? :laughing:
[quote=Chesby05;3892365]
And your hazard is correct I would say, too. We can only vaccinate against diseases for which vaccinations actually exist. There are far more diseases than we can vaccinate against.
Apologies. I should have put communicable diseases which are on the current vax schedule. Do you think that at least 90-95% of the entire population has immunity for these?
BabelFish
13-07-2009, 16:01
Hey Chesby05, do you get 15 dollars for every post you make just like doctors get for every jab they give? :laughing:
Yes, I do. Because people's motivation can only ever about money, can't it? Nobody could possibly genuinely care about anyone else :rolleyes:
In the US doctors get money for vaccinating, from what I understand. In Australia, I believe it is against the law. Where is your information from?
jaxcoop - thanks for that. I only made the assumption that you weren't aware of it because you asked why not vaxxing puts the rest of the community in danger.
Miriam, to be honest, I can only say that yes, I do believe that vaccinating protects the vast majority of people who are vaccinated, and no, I haven't seen any evidence otherwise.
Miriam, to be honest, I can only say that yes, I do believe that vaccinating protects the vast majority of people who are vaccinated, and no, I haven't seen any evidence otherwise.
Sorry, maybe you misunderstood my question. You say that we currently have Herd immunity, which means that 90-95% of our population has immunity to the diseases on the current vax schedule. Where do you get your information from that says that 90-95% of people in Australia are up to date with all their vaxes including boosters etc. I can only find the vax rates for children under 5, not the entire population.
PunkyDiva
13-07-2009, 16:14
, i wonder if the current non vaxing taxpayers care that my dd chews up thousands of your dollars each yr ATM with physio and home care:rolleyes:
No, I am glad we live in a country where my taxes do go to fund things like care of your daughter.
I know you hurt for the devistation this disease has caused but playing the blame game or guilt trip on non vaxxers is unnecessary and unfounded.
Beebs, now the autism gene has been identified and signalling work is being done they are already theorising that vaccinations are amoungst environmental factors that trigger that particular gene. Hmmm, wasn't that what Wakefield was saying but his data collection methods too "out there", how could laypeople possibly be able to provide "real" facts on changes to their child. :p
Fuchsia!
13-07-2009, 16:36
Yes, I do. Because people's motivation can only ever about money, can't it? Nobody could possibly genuinely care about anyone else :rolleyes:
In the US doctors get money for vaccinating, from what I understand. In Australia, I believe it is against the law. Where is your information from?
jaxcoop - thanks for that. I only made the assumption that you weren't aware of it because you asked why not vaxxing puts the rest of the community in danger.
Miriam, to be honest, I can only say that yes, I do believe that vaccinating protects the vast majority of people who are vaccinated, and no, I haven't seen any evidence otherwise.
actually it isn't illegal. Drs receive an bonus incentive payment for each child they vax from the government. From memory it is about $25
http://www.medicare.gov.au/about/whatwedo/other/gpii.jsp
missie_mack
13-07-2009, 16:48
In the US doctors get money for vaccinating, from what I understand. In Australia, I believe it is against the law. Where is your information from?
Uh medicare? Surely you did your research :confused:
BabelFish
13-07-2009, 16:51
Then I'm sure there are doctors out there who take advantage of it - doctors are human, like everyone else, and there are a proportion of them that are quite horrible. Again, though, I would suggest that seeing as vaccination is a public health issue, and seeing as doctors are in the business of helping to prevent disease and to treat disease, then vaccinating is just good medical practice. I do not, and will not, attribute mercenary motives to every, single doctor that lives and works in this country. Like I said, I'm sure there are a percentage, as there are a percentage of mercenary people in every profession, but to claim that doctors ONLY vaccinate (not saying that's your claim - but I've heard it) because of financial incentive is paranoid and completely untrue.
Also, vaccinating children under the age of 5 is free, so that means that doctors don't get paid for it, like they would for other services they render. I would also take that into consideration when talking about `kickbacks' for vaccines. It's a free service - but somebody needs to get paid to administer it. Because we don't pay for it, the government does. That's how the Medicare system works. Are people going to start saying now that doctors only see us because the government pays them to?
Miriam - yes, I did misunderstand your question, sorry about that. It's a good point and I want to be able to answer it properly. I think that it needs to be remembered that 5 - 10% of the population is more than 1 - 2 million people in this country, and so I would like to see numbers that suggest that there are more than 1 - 2 million cases annually of communicable diseases recorded in Australia. If (as I suspect) there aren't, then that would be the evidence required to show that we have herd immunity. If we don't - then more people need to get out there and get vaxxing.
I also don't have an issue living in a society where my taxpayer dollars go towards good public health services. I wish our public health services were better (far better, in fact), and that our dollars were used more wisely. Things like vaccinations, smoking and drink driving campaigns, campaigns about drug use, exericse, lifestyle and obesity - these are all in the interest of public health, AND the public health system. The more people who refuse to adhere to the interests of public health, the more issues we will have. Again, in terms of the greater community, it is up to everyone to do their bit to ensure that their part in that community doesn't jeopardise anyone else.
BabelFish
13-07-2009, 16:53
Uh medicare? Surely you did your research :confused:
I was referring to `kickbacks' from pharmaceutical companies, which is what I thought Lizzie meant - so my mistake. Have rectified it in the above post.
Miriam - here is the WHO immunisation profile for Australia, with statistics on reported cases of communicable diseases, and percentage of target population vaccinated, by antigen. It's got a lot of other information - I thought before I read it properly I would post it so that we can both read it at the same time!
http://www.who.int/vaccines/globalsummary/immunization/countryprofileresult.cfm?C='aus'
Beebs, now the autism gene has been identified and signalling work is being done they are already theorising that vaccinations are amoungst environmental factors that trigger that particular gene. Hmmm, wasn't that what Wakefield was saying but his data collection methods too "out there", how could laypeople possibly be able to provide "real" facts on changes to their child. :p
But you can't just blame vaxxes - by your own reasoning its a genetic thing triggered by environmental factors only one being vaxxes. We live in a terribly poisoned world - I would like to see all of that studied in realation to ASD. Food, pollution, vaxxes - everything.
reAllytee
13-07-2009, 16:58
Of course i know what the herd immunity theory is about. I can't actually even remembering discussing it with you actually. I might of overlooked it.
Personally unless all the population is vaccinated or at least have a high rate of vaccination then there is no such thing.
Im not anti vax, im far from it. I actually understand the theory of it and i think it wcould work.
What i don't agree with is injecting young babies and children with these chemical.
If they were to turn it around and have a vax schedule implemented for adults and left children/babies alone, i would be 1st in the line for the vaxxes (well most of them).
The amount of adults and the elderly that aren't vaxxed or had their booster is soooooo many. You just have to ask on this forum who is up to date and no one even knows what they have even had.
I am one of those that can't absorb rubella. I had it as a child and i have had about 4 vaxxes for it as an adult and it wears off within a year if im lucky.
I would never ever blame an unvaxxed child or their parent of i were to catch rubella. It is not their fault that my body doesn't absorb it. I do not expect another parent to use their child to protect me if they don't want to.
The major carrier for pertussis is the elderly and adults not children. Although that shows that the vax may work to an extent to help protect the children it is the older generation that is spreading it to the vulnerable and the babies that aren't able to be vaxxed
For the years 2005/2006
10% of pertussis cases were in people aged under 20 yrs old.
20% of pertussis cases were in people aged 20 – 34 yrs old.
70% of pertussis cases were in people aged over 35 years.
So the argument that unvaxxed children are the ones spreading the diseases is very flawed.
If we want to protect the children and the babies then we as adults should be the ones having the vaxxes. Not them.
:yelclap:
Yep & what would you like me to do say in the case of my son who is invaxxed due to reactions/ medical reasons ?
If he passes on a disease to someone what exactly am I supposed to do ? Be held responsible for that ?
Sorry I am not going to place him at risk because I need to look out for the greater good of 'public health' ...
You cant know why a child is unvaxxed & whether they really are the carriers cause just as jaxcoop has shown most carriers are us adults !
I got WC a few years ago from another adult & guess what his doctor told him " dont worry about it people are vaccinated " ... WTF ?!?!?!
It doesnt work like that but sadly most people think it does & this thread shows it.
Fuchsia!
13-07-2009, 16:58
but to claim that doctors ONLY vaccinate (not saying that's your claim - but I've heard it) because of financial incentive is paranoid and completely untrue.
To claim that they all do it not for the money is naive.
How can you know for sure that a poportion only don't do it for the money? Thats a nice little bonus at the end of the year. Nice little cruise.
TBH i would much rather be paranoid then be naive.
Of course some Dr's don't give a stuff about the money. But i know for a fact that some do and i have exprienced it 1st hand. So don't be so naive and think that all Dr's are putting our best interests 1st
:yelclap:
Yep & what would you like me to do say in the case of my son who is invaxxed due to reactions/ medical reasons ?
If he passes on a disease to someone what exactly am I supposed to do ? Be held responsible for that ?
Sorry I am not going to place him at risk because I need to look out for the greater good of 'public health' ...
You cant know why a child is unvaxxed & whether they really are the carriers cause just as jaxcoop has shown most carriers are us adults !
I got WC a few years ago from another adult & guess what his doctor told him " dont worry about it people are vaccinated " ... WTF ?!?!?!
It doesnt work like that but sadly most people think it does & this thread shows it.
Sorry reAllytee - Jazzah, chesby and most pro vaxxer have said numerous times that we doens't think people who react badly to vaxxes or are immune supressed should be forced to have the vaxxes. They have stated (and I believe this too) that the more people that can be vaxxed be vaxxed and then it's safer for people who can't be vaxxed like your little one.
BabelFish
13-07-2009, 17:05
To claim that they all don't is naive.
How can you know for sure that a poportion only do it for the money? Thats a nice little bonus at the end of the year. Nice little cruise.
TBH i would much rather be paranoid then be naive.
Of course some Dr's don't give a stuff about the money. But i know for a fact that some do and i have exprienced it 1st hand. So don't be so naive and think that all Dr's are putting our best interests 1st
Er, I didn't claim that all don't. You might need to read my post again.
In fact, I didn't claim anything that you just wrote just then. Did you actually read my post properly? And did you realise that you contradicted yourself in your own post? :confused:
Reallytee - I've said more than once that there is a proportion of the population that should not and cannot be immunised. I can go back and find the examples of it if you like.
missie_mack
13-07-2009, 17:07
I don't know whether to laugh or cry when people talk about vaccinating being a matter of public health. If vaccinating was a matter of public health one would think the government and those educated vaccinators would have stopped when they read the Brisson reports into the expected outcome of the varicella vaccine.
Speaking about the burden on the hospital systems/ community from 2002-2005 only 4281 hospitalisations occured from chicken poxwhere as 14926 were due to shingles. 2003-2004 11 people died from chicken pox related illness where as 38 died from shingles related illness. Brisson in a study prior to the introduction of the vaccine in England (he was the head of communicatable diseases from memory) stated that in the next 40 years after the introduction of the vaccine the rate of shingles would dramatically increased due to people not coming in contact with the naturally occuring virus.. resulting in increased rates of death. Brisson estimated that 34000 people would need to be vaccinated to prevent one death from chicken pox, one has to wonder how many deaths from shingles were occur per a person vaccinated for chicken pox.
But hey take heart the department of health website clearly states
In unvaccinated populations, varicella is primarily a childhood illness with more than 90% of the population in temperate countries developing clinical or serological infection by adolescence. In Australia, however, seropositivity was 83% by age 10–14 years. Varicella is generally a benign, self-limiting illness in children, but morbidity and mortality rates are higher in adults,at the extremes of ages, and in the immunocompromised
Considering in a unvaccinated population the rate of complication is only 2% and those at the greatest risk are adults why are we not vaccinating adults if indeed it is a public health matter :confused: Why have the government not placed the shingles vaccine that was approved by the TGA quite sometime ago on the PBS (the cost of the vaccine last I checked was $250) despite numerous requests and those most at risk (ie being the elderly) being unable to afford the vaccine and the required boosters. Why are the medications for shingles so expensive compared to other medications despite there being already signs of increased rates of shingles with numbers expected to only increase from here?
In the US doctors get money for vaccinating, from what I understand. In Australia, I believe it is against the law. Where is your information from?
Uh medicare? Surely you did your research? :confused:
BabelFish
13-07-2009, 17:22
Uh medicare? Surely you did your research?
Yes missie_mack - you must have missed where I answered this question a couple of pages ago. Post 180, to be precise. And in more detail in post 179. But that's ok :)
As for the rest of what you say - could you provide links? I'd like to read all of that.
Fuchsia!
13-07-2009, 17:22
Er, I didn't claim that all don't. You might need to read my post again.
In fact, I didn't claim anything that you just wrote just then. Did you actually read my post properly? And did you realise that you contradicted yourself in your own post? :confused:
Reallytee - I've said more than once that there is a proportion of the population that should not and cannot be immunised. I can go back and find the examples of it if you like.
I edited and you are right it it does contridict itself i wasn't thinking clearly as the kids were talking to me. I have edited my mistakes
BabelFish
13-07-2009, 17:23
Yes - not always easy is it when the kids are around? I have to post half the time with a very curious, VERY persistent little someone always wanting to bash the keyboard to see what will happen and what will appear on the screen :D
missie_mack
13-07-2009, 18:57
Yes missie_mack - you must have missed where I answered this question a couple of pages ago. Post 180, to be precise. And in more detail in post 179. But that's ok :)
As for the rest of what you say - could you provide links? I'd like to read all of that.
Ah see I probably wrote it before that response and got distracted
Which parts did you want links to? Ie Brissons study (which is lengthy reading but often quoted) or the other. Most information is sourced from the Department of Health and Aging's website (which is where the quote comes from) Brissons study is quoted in most medical articles relating to varicella/zoster and the vaccination for either and both
BabelFish
13-07-2009, 18:59
Would really love them all - if that's ok. I used to study epidemiology and public health at Uni, and just find it a really interesting subject (which yes, my DP thinks is weird) :D
Which Dept of Health website are you quoting from?
missie_mack
13-07-2009, 19:19
Health and Aging..link (http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/cda-cdi31suppl.htm~cda-cdi31suppl-3.htm~cda-cdi31suppl-3p.htm)
Here are some links
Varicella vaccination and herpes zoster
More recent modelling of the impact of varicella vaccination has examined the effect on the incidence of herpes zoster (shingles). If reactivation of latent varicella infections is prevented by varicella immunity maintained by regular exposure to varicella, the reduction in circulating varicella virus might reduce immunity in the elderly and thereby increase the incidence of zoster. As noted above, zoster is a more serious illness than chickenpox with higher rates of hospitalisation and sequelae. Brisson and colleagues assessed the cost-effectiveness of introducing varicella vaccination in Canada20 and concluded that if vaccination resulted in increases in zoster incidence, then vaccination became cost ineffective in the medium term. Subsequent modifications of their modelling led the authors to predict an epidemic of zoster affecting more than 50 per cent of those aged 10-44 years after the introduction of mass vaccination of children against varicella.21 This epidemic would consist of an estimated 21 million cases of varicella and result in 5,000 deaths. However, the incidence of herpes zoster would decrease as a larger proportion of the population becomes vaccinated and 30 to 50 years after the introduction of varicella vaccination, would fall below pre-vaccination levels.21
In the cost-effectiveness study of varicella vaccination in Australia, the authors did not include the potential increase in the incidence of zoster in their calculations.19 Neither this study nor the Canadian study20 included the ultimate cost savings, from the eventual reduction in the incidence of herpes zoster to very low levels, by varicella vaccination. Despite the concerns about varicella vaccination and herpes zoster, the ATAGI has stood by their recommendation to give varicella vaccination to all 18-month-old children and to children aged 10-13 years without a history of varicella infection in Australia. The proposal will be considered by National Health and Medical Research Council in October 2002.
link (http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/content/cda-pubs-cdi-2002-cdi2604-htm-cdi2604o.htm)
I will have a look for more later as I havent read it recently
BabelFish
13-07-2009, 20:19
You're a champ - thank you! :)
This has wandered a bit off topic. This thread was purely a vote thread. If you have vax issues to discuss, you might get a broader response if you post or start a new thread in the vax area of the hub
Cheers
I choose to vaccinate as per the schedule, the best I can, my youngest bub hasn't had his 12 mth shots yet, am trying to get to the clinic without taking 4/5 other kids with me, but I like these types of debates they get everyone talking and discussing, which is good.:yelclap:
PunkyDiva
13-07-2009, 23:09
But you can't just blame vaxxes - by your own reasoning its a genetic thing triggered by environmental factors only one being vaxxes. We live in a terribly poisoned world - I would like to see all of that studied in realation to ASD. Food, pollution, vaxxes - everything.
Nope, I said "...vaccinations are amoungst environmental factors that trigger that particular gene".
Wakefields theories did say that our food, pollution etc and vaccination could be those environmental triggers. Just as they know there's strong correllatio between mass immunisation of bubs for whooping cough and childhood leaukaemia, but no def research again because we just aren't advanced enough, but they're getting there.
With the signalling research being done now on this autism gene there will start to be more def conclusive evidence of why and how it gets switched on. It will also mean we can test for this gene and be prepared in advance, of course there's potential downsides too in that people may abort. But selection already occurs in IVF and through amnios.
I don't particularly want vaccine to be the cause because I am then guilty of having done this damage to my child but like many parents of damaged children we just wanna know why ??
These pharma companies have no liabilty for any damage but the US and Japan gov's have payed out for damage caused by vaccines. Those in the US number in the 100's now and have been outta court settlements.
Hey, have you come across, in your research, the MMR research that the UK gov was ordered to stop suppressing ?? I read about it but can't seem to find anything else since, it was about the same time as those US court cases that were lost.
I don't particularly want vaccine to be the cause because I am then guilty of having done this damage to my child but like many parents of damaged children we just wanna know why ??
Hey, have you come across, in your research, the MMR research that the UK gov was ordered to stop suppressing ?? I read about it but can't seem to find anything else since, it was about the same time as those US court cases that were lost.
Of course you want to know why. I understand that completely!
I did vaguely hear about the mmr research - but can't find it now either - I'll have a look later on - got an obs appointment this morning!
i think vax's are a normal thing to do these days i was vaxed and i turned out just fine :yes:... only part i hate is the crying!!!
hate it hate it hate it :no: its just awful!
although i choose not to give bubba the flu shot, many years reciving the shot then getting the flu anyway, pointless, and the fact that the flu shot only targets 2 strains of the flu, when there are plently more out there to catch,,, no thanks! :mad:
PunkyDiva
15-07-2009, 13:59
i think vax's are a normal thing to do these days i was vaxed and i turned out just fine :yes:...
My sister and I were unvaxxed children, lived in a farming area,often holidayed in preventable disease hotspots, water was often taken from the river during drought, we stood on nails, got cut by rusty wire and old farming machinery, played in very unsanitary conditions, caught ruebella, measles, chicken pox and mumps and guess what, we turned out fine too. :D
lizzieiscontented
15-07-2009, 20:28
Some more X-Files, yeah I know, MY GOVT ONLY ACTS IN MY BEST INTEREST. Time to wake up to the agenda.:hissy:
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/australia-braces-for-mass-swine-flu-vaccination-20090714-djyg.html
http://www.naturalnews.com/026612_asthma_the_flu_flu_shots.html
http://loveforlife.com.au/node/6636
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25272600-2702,00.html
Some more X-Files, yeah I know, MY GOVT ONLY ACTS IN MY BEST INTEREST. Time to wake up to the agenda.:hissy:
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/australia-braces-for-mass-swine-flu-vaccination-20090714-djyg.html
http://www.naturalnews.com/026612_asthma_the_flu_flu_shots.html
http://loveforlife.com.au/node/6636
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25272600-2702,00.html
Umm - yes - its disgusting the way that the government is ordering vaxxes for what could potentially be one of the worst pandemics the world has ever seen depending on if it mutates or not. Gee - It really annoys me....wtf? If you don't like it then don't have the vax. I'm just glad we have a choice in the matter. You really are starting to sound very paranoid.....
PunkyDiva
15-07-2009, 23:24
Compulsory inoculation of vaccines containing a deadly virus;
- Massive and targeted reduction of the world population;
- Through vaccines, possible introduction of tiny microchips for mind control;
- Establishment of martial law and police state;
- Activation of the concentration camps built to accommodate the rebellious;
- Transfer of power from all nations to a single United Nations government;
- Fulfilment of the NWO (New World Order).
OMFG !! I have never read such pure, paranoid shyte before and if this is what people think non vaxxers beleive then no wonder they think we are bonkers.
For the record, cause I never want to be lumped in with anyone that beleives the above, our reasons are based on historical family medical evidence and the Children Hospital Paed's did not disagree or question the path we are taking in regards to safeguarding our son from what occured with siblings.
Compulsory inoculation of vaccines containing a deadly virus;
- Massive and targeted reduction of the world population;
- Through vaccines, possible introduction of tiny microchips for mind control;
- Establishment of martial law and police state;
- Activation of the concentration camps built to accommodate the rebellious;
- Transfer of power from all nations to a single United Nations government;
- Fulfilment of the NWO (New World Order).
OMFG !! I have never read such pure, paranoid shyte before and if this is what people think non vaxxers beleive then no wonder they think we are bonkers.
For the record, cause I never want to be lumped in with anyone that beleives the above, our reasons are based on historical family medical evidence and the Children Hospital Paed's did not disagree or question the path we are taking in regards to safeguarding our son from what occured with siblings.
Me too - I don't believe any of that paranoid stuff either. I do believe that politics and money come into play in a big way with regard to vaccines and their safety and efficacy though. I find it disturbing how the govt have commissioned CSL to produce a swine flu vaccine in readiness for the epidemic....I mean this is something that's going to be injected into 90% of our population and it's supposed to work - how can it be rushed? It's not like inventing a new kind of milkshake:rolleyes: I would want to see a vaccine tested for longer than a few months before I took it.....how can money not be a major factor for the manufacturers of this vaccine......and do you think they are going to say "oh it's not really trialled properly yet" if there is a chance some other manufacturer might get in first? I hope I'm making sense.....it's early:o
Me too - I don't believe any of that paranoid stuff either. I do believe that politics and money come into play in a big way with regard to vaccines and their safety and efficacy though. I find it disturbing how the govt have commissioned CSL to produce a swine flu vaccine in readiness for the epidemic....I mean this is something that's going to be injected into 90% of our population and it's supposed to work - how can it be rushed? It's not like inventing a new kind of milkshake:rolleyes: I would want to see a vaccine tested for longer than a few months before I took it.....how can money not be a major factor for the manufacturers of this vaccine......and do you think they are going to say "oh it's not really trialled properly yet" if there is a chance some other manufacturer might get in first? I hope I'm making sense.....it's early:o
I would like to see more testing as well, believe me as a pro vaxxer I still want everything done that can be done to make sure the vaxxes are safe. Problem is that health officials are starting to panic - it seems that with this flu its more of a when it will mutate - not an if it will mutate. And governments are starting to panic.
I don't think people should be forced to get the vax at all - only if they decide its for them and their family - I'm pro vax and am still undecided ;)
PS - if that last website link wasn't so outrageous it could almost be funny - almost:dizzy:
Compulsory inoculation of vaccines containing a deadly virus;
- Massive and targeted reduction of the world population;
- Through vaccines, possible introduction of tiny microchips for mind control;
- Establishment of martial law and police state;
- Activation of the concentration camps built to accommodate the rebellious;
- Transfer of power from all nations to a single United Nations government;
- Fulfilment of the NWO (New World Order).
OMFG !! I have never read such pure, paranoid shyte before and if this is what people think non vaxxers beleive then no wonder they think we are bonkers.
For the record, cause I never want to be lumped in with anyone that beleives the above, our reasons are based on historical family medical evidence and the Children Hospital Paed's did not disagree or question the path we are taking in regards to safeguarding our son from what occured with siblings.
OMG - If people weren't buying into that cr@p it would almost be funny. I can't believe people are still that paranoid. :laughing:
Althought if the bit about 'targeted reduction of the worlds population' is true then I recommend we start with the following:
people who use txt spk in emails,
people who walk really slowly but take up the whole footpath so you can't pass them out,
anyone who's life goal is to appear on a reality tv show,
and of course, people who truly believe that 'they' are out to control us all but can't actually expand on 'they' besides saying 'the government'.
As for the swine flu vaccine, I'm very pro-vaxing but I'm also not sure I would have it unless has been tested thoroughly. However a flu vaccine is fairly standard, they create a new one every year so obviously the scientists involved are familiar with the process and what they need to test when making it and what side effects to look for when it's been given to someone.
PunkyDiva
16-07-2009, 09:05
I think those sites are for people still in the 60's and 70's with adled brains from all the LSD etc. Those drugs did amazing things for paranoia. :p
My sister and I were unvaxxed children, lived in a farming area,often holidayed in preventable disease hotspots, water was often taken from the river during drought, we stood on nails, got cut by rusty wire and old farming machinery, played in very unsanitary conditions, caught ruebella, measles, chicken pox and mumps and guess what, we turned out fine too. :D
Fair enough you turned out alright but knowing what you went threw, im pretty sure you wouldnt want your childern to go threw it, esp when you know there is something out there that can stop it!
ConcernedParent
16-07-2009, 11:05
I am a nursing student who has just completed all my microbiology modules with a world class microbiologist.
After all I have seen, and learned in labs, there is nothing anyone can say to me about not vaccinating my kids. If you had access to all the knowledge, you would feel the same way.
There is a loud minority group of concerned citizens out there. I see them at my weekend market getting their message out there. I do not see them at the science forums or in the universities.... and remain unconvinced on the quality of their information.
My senior lecturer tells me there is NO EVIDENCE BASED MEDICAL EVIDENCE or RESEARCH which links vaccinations to autism, (which seems to be their primary concern). I know there are people out there who have family medical histories and can't vaccinate - and I am told that is to be expected - because they don't sero-convert. But for them to be protected, the rest of us need to be vaccinated.
Its called herd immunity and its really, really important. When you don't vaccinate you put other people at risk, including those who don't sero-convert.
missie_mack
16-07-2009, 15:39
I am a nursing student who has just completed all my microbiology modules with a world class microbiologist.
After all I have seen, and learned in labs, there is nothing anyone can say to me about not vaccinating my kids. If you had access to all the knowledge, you would feel the same way.
There is a loud minority group of concerned citizens out there. I see them at my weekend market getting their message out there. I do not see them at the science forums or in the universities.... and remain unconvinced on the quality of their information.
My senior lecturer tells me there is NO EVIDENCE BASED MEDICAL EVIDENCE or RESEARCH which links vaccinations to autism, (which seems to be their primary concern). I know there are people out there who have family medical histories and can't vaccinate - and I am told that is to be expected - because they don't sero-convert. But for them to be protected, the rest of us need to be vaccinated.
I think you will find any scientist worth their weight will openly admit that all medications come with risks and that you will find many of them aren't pro vaccinating but instead informed choice. I think you are pretty presumptive to assume that those who aren't pro vaccinating are not from educated backgrounds themselves.
If you are still at the stage where you are being told what to think and not at the stage in your studying that you are sent off to investigate and/or research these things yourself you still have a long way to go in your studies...
I am a nursing student who has just completed all my microbiology modules with a world class microbiologist.
After all I have seen, and learned in labs, there is nothing anyone can say to me about not vaccinating my kids. If you had access to all the knowledge, you would feel the same way.
There is a loud minority group of concerned citizens out there. I see them at my weekend market getting their message out there. I do not see them at the science forums or in the universities.... and remain unconvinced on the quality of their information.
My senior lecturer tells me there is NO EVIDENCE BASED MEDICAL EVIDENCE or RESEARCH which links vaccinations to autism, (which seems to be their primary concern). I know there are people out there who have family medical histories and can't vaccinate - and I am told that is to be expected - because they don't sero-convert. But for them to be protected, the rest of us need to be vaccinated.
Its called herd immunity and its really, really important. When you don't vaccinate you put other people at risk, including those who don't sero-convert.
HI, my dd is also a nurse student and she hasn;t come across anything that would change her mind about vaccines, she believes that for the health of the community everyone should be vaxxing.
GCmumof2
17-07-2009, 21:11
Nursing student! Clearly not a mum of an autistic child, where every day is a challenge. I had my head in the sand and thought that people who didn't vaccinate were idiots and selfish too. Ha! I guess they got the last laugh. I vaccinated my son and autism struck us. I guess I'm the idiot for not researching the risks involved with vaccination and just trusting the medical profession. You sound like you have all the text book knowledge from uni but little practical experience. Instead of trusting your lecturer why don't you do your own research and speak to mum's of autistic children? Even better, spend a day with them to see how challenging life is.
Opinionated
17-07-2009, 22:56
GCmumog2, I am sorry that your child has an autism spectrum disorder. However, there is no scientific evidence that supports a link between autism and vaccination. I know, I looked, and looked. There is however plenty of people willing to blame vaccination as the cause or trigger of autism, but until it is proven, I am not convinced. I have contact with autistic children as well as being a health professional. I see exactly how challenging your life must be, however that does not change my stance. Until there is proof that vaccinations trigger autism or a child has some other reason contraindicating immunisation, I will continue to recommend it.
lizzieiscontented
18-07-2009, 00:45
GCmumof2 I am very sorry that this has been your first hand experience. I fully comprehend what has been done to you and your child and it frustrates me that those who are trusting get harmed :no:
I am also sorry that others in this thread undermine your very personal experience and belief in what has been done to your child. Although governments worldwide give copious amounts of money in compensation for vax related damage, I know that no amount of compensation could ever make up for what has been done to your family.
I wish that we weren't living in a world where I get called a paranoid conspiracy theorist because I fail to see how my government acts in my best interests. I say what I do because I care, even though most do not see this.
Again, I am sorry.
OneNowOneLater
18-07-2009, 01:16
Nursing student! Clearly not a mum of an autistic child, where every day is a challenge. I had my head in the sand and thought that people who didn't vaccinate were idiots and selfish too. Ha! I guess they got the last laugh. I vaccinated my son and autism struck us. I guess I'm the idiot for not researching the risks involved with vaccination and just trusting the medical profession. You sound like you have all the text book knowledge from uni but little practical experience. Instead of trusting your lecturer why don't you do your own research and speak to mum's of autistic children? Even better, spend a day with them to see how challenging life is.
I am also currently a nursing student.
HOWEVER, prior to undertaking my studies, i had been working in New York, as a nanny for two children. A bright energetic 4 year old girl, and her autistic 2 year old brother, who was the sweetest child you could ever meet.
Let me tell you. Before moving up to new york, i did some research into autism, and nothing a book can tell you compares to actually dealing with an Autistic child. It doesnt mention the hours spent you deal with therapy appointments after therapy appointments. Nor does it tell you how to get the child to look into your eyes etc and basic stuff parents normally take for granted. My days were filled with Occupational therapy, educational therapy, speech therapy and physiotherapy. And then there was trying to squeeze in time with the little girl, around her playdates, figure skating lessons etc.
Yeah, i know i'm not the parent of an Autistic child. But for an entire year, i was "like" a parent to him - the bio parents words, not mine! So i did deal with the stress (granted not to the same extent as I and R) of everyday life with an autistic child.
I noticed GCmumof2, that this was your first post on BH. Please dont just assume that nursing students (or even the parents of nursing students) or anyone in the medical profession know absolutely nothing about Autism and how it affects the families. You dont see behind their doors. For all you know, they could have an Autistic child, neice, nephew, grandchild etc. and do have the experience on what it is like to raise an autistic child. They may not with to publicise this information.
There is NO proven link between Autism and vaccination. The age range that autism predominantly becomes noticable is around the 18mo mark. yes even though that generally corresponds with the MMR vaccination, not all children show signs of autism, nor do they all "contract" it. (I couldnt work out a better word) Even children who are NON vaccinated also show signs of autism around this mark. (NOT all do though)
C****, the little boy in New York, was diagnosed at 16 months with Autism. PRIOR to getting his vaccinations. Subsequently, i think its fair, at least in MY eyes, that vaccinations are NOT to blame for autism.
Sorry for my post for being so long, however, even though my DD is not autistic, this topic hits close to home for me, and when it gets to the vaccination-autism argument, i get a little passionate when it comes to all of my kids (bio and non bio)
BabelFish
18-07-2009, 09:55
There is no proven link between vaccines and autism. You cannot `catch' autism. Until there is solid, irrefutable, cannot-be-denied evidence to prove that there is a correlation between vaccines and autism, nobody should make any assumptions. That could prove far more dangerous than beneficial.
And saying that has absolutely nothing to do with what it's like to raise an autistic child. What it's like to raise a child with disabilities is irrelevant to a vaccine debate. And yes, there are four members of my family with ASD.
Nursing student! Clearly not a mum of an autistic child, where every day is a challenge. I had my head in the sand and thought that people who didn't vaccinate were idiots and selfish too. Ha! I guess they got the last laugh. I vaccinated my son and autism struck us. I guess I'm the idiot for not researching the risks involved with vaccination and just trusting the medical profession. You sound like you have all the text book knowledge from uni but little practical experience. Instead of trusting your lecturer why don't you do your own research and speak to mum's of autistic children? Even better, spend a day with them to see how challenging life is.
There is no proven link between vaccines and autism. You cannot `catch' autism. Until there is solid, irrefutable, cannot-be-denied evidence to prove that there is a correlation between vaccines and autism, nobody should make any assumptions. That could prove far more dangerous than beneficial.
And saying that has absolutely nothing to do with what it's like to raise an autistic child. What it's like to raise a child with disabilities is irrelevant to a vaccine debate. And yes, there are four members of my family with ASD.
Yes Chesby - I agree, my nephew has just been diagnosed on the ASD as well - noone in the family thinks there is a link with vaxxes.
I think you will find any scientist worth their weight will openly admit that all medications come with risks and that you will find many of them aren't pro vaccinating but instead informed choice. I think you are pretty presumptive to assume that those who aren't pro vaccinating are not from educated backgrounds themselves.
If you are still at the stage where you are being told what to think and not at the stage in your studying that you are sent off to investigate and/or research these things yourself you still have a long way to go in your studies...
Thats a bit rude MM, very offensive I thought..:( you dont go telling someone who has spent a long time studying that '' they have a long way to go in their studies '':(... I am so happy that you didn't say that to my dd who is also a nursing student, students at uni go there for a reson to learn, you will not get any better info anywhere than a university.
the autism-vax link has NOT been discredited! that's not to say it does exist btw
the gene has only just been isolated and we are only on the tip of the iceberg about finding out all about it
Opinionated
19-07-2009, 10:20
the autism-vax link has NOT been discredited! that's not to say it does exist btw
the gene has only just been isolated and we are only on the tip of the iceberg about finding out all about it
I beg to differ. The initial study that concluded that there was a link between autism and vax has been discredited. The study size was extremely small, too small in fact to draw such a conclusion. Even scientists that worked on the study have come out later and said that it doesn't clearly indicate a relationship. I will look for a link.
However, as you stated, we are only at the beginning of finding out about ASD's and what may cause them. Maybe vaxx does contribute, but as yet, there is no evidence to support this theory.
are you referring to the Wakefield study?
yes he admitted that there was some dodgy data.. but I don't believe that discredits the whole study.
btw, just for the record I don't believe in the autism link, but I will change that thinking of more data ever comes out that supports it.. I truly believe though that the 'truth' as it were is only just being discovered. (I don't think anything will be found re: the vax link.. but if anything about austim is discovered then all the better!)
BabelFish
19-07-2009, 22:47
I think that people who turn their noses up at people who have university educations are mistaken and especially if they think that they know more - no matter how much personal research they have done - than people who have years and years of specialised full time study under their belts.
I never said that people cannot do effective research on their own. I just said that university educations should not be discredited out of some kind of bizarre reverse snobbery.
My comments were not directed at anyone in particular, but just at the attitude in general. I would never presume to think that I know as much as my brother about the law or what it's like to be a lawyer even if I'd done five years of independent research, because he a) has a degree and b) has been a practicing criminal lawyer for more than 20 years.
In the vast majority of cases, independent research is NOT the same thing as formal education that is full time and last for years. You can achieve a lot, but it doesn't make you better or more informed than someone who is actually qualified in that field.
Nobody has to agree with me, it's just an assumption and an attitude in others I find offensive. Just because someone knows a lot about a subject, it doesn't mean they know everything and should just dismiss others who have just as much (if not more) knowledge. Just as I don't expect university-educated people to assume that others are ignorant, the same thing shouldn't be assumed about those who are university educated.
PunkyDiva
20-07-2009, 13:51
My DH is a medical research scientist with degrees in genetics and immunology and published papers, ask the bubhubbers who know me in real life. He doesn't just have years of study under his belt but a decade of current working knowledge and practises.
We are pro choice, and if you truly looked around you would see many emminant(sp) scientists and medical practitioners who are also far from happy with current vaccinations speaking up when they have nothing to personally gain by it.
Fair enough you turned out alright but knowing what you went threw, im pretty sure you wouldnt want your childern to go threw it, esp when you know there is something out there that can stop it!
We went through a week at most feeling ill and no long lasting effects.
On the other hand if you read my posts you would know I have one child who required resus after whooping cough vaxx and another who will live a life time with asthma, excema, epilepsy and autism.
If I can prevent this occurring again by delaying and selectively vaxxing under proper medical supervision then that's what we will do because I beleive I've more then paid for doing my bit for society.
BabelFish
20-07-2009, 14:05
I agree with you Punky - although you have addressed something entirely different to what I was addressing in my post. I would never turn my nose up at your husband's qualifications and would have a great deal of respect for his opinion - what I was pointing out is that there are many who would turn up their nose, and would NOT respect his opinion, simply because they've done some research of their own and have no time for people with real qualifications.
Blueberry Crumble
20-07-2009, 14:35
[QUOTE=lizzieisconfused;3890673]
and gee, I wonder why SOO many people seem so ill all of the time. Shouldn't vaccines be making us all super-dooper healthy. I look at my brother's fully vaxed kids and they are always sick. I guess this can't have anything to do with the vaccines. I still can't stress the fact that our friends with unvaxed kids have such bright, healthy complexions.
QUOTE]
Your brothers kids get sick with vaccine preventable diseases? Gee thats bad.
Everyone can catch the common cold, whether you are vaxed or not.
And 90 percent of kids in this country are vaxed, you cant tell me that all of them look pale and sick compared to the 10 percent that look all shiny and healthy:laughing:
Fuchsia!
20-07-2009, 17:33
i can see the difference between my kids health, 1 is vaxxed 1 is not
I agree with jaxcoop.... I can too. I'd love to state some of my real reasons for not (currently) vaxxing here but there is just too much judgement.
I have deleted some sarcastic, off topic and argumentative posts. This was intended to be a simple voting thread, there is another section of the forum for vax debates. If there are any more sarcastic posts, this thread will be closed.
Cheers
ButterflyMama
21-07-2009, 08:28
We don't vax.
clare1211
21-07-2009, 13:52
i have vaccinated both my children (2 years old and 1 year old) never had ANY problems with them after, maybe a bit upset for a few days, lumps where the needle went in (where the they moved when it was going in) not eating as much food as normal. its such a good idea imagine not vaccinating and your child getting REALLY sick!! id feel terrible if i didnt do it and they got sick especially if by getting them done u could have prevented it!!
i can see the difference between my kids health, 1 is vaxxed 1 is not
:iagree:I can see the difference between my kids health 9 are vaxed and healthy and 1 is unvaxed and is blind.
reAllytee
22-07-2009, 12:09
Big difference between my two also ...
One vaxxed & healthy as a horse yes :yes:
One who too got vaxxed & became rather ill which will cause problems for life ...
There are many stories out there if you want them all it will take a while :cool:
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