View Full Version : "Born Free" by Dr Rixa Freeze
Have any other bubhubbers heard about or read Rixa Freeze's PhD in American Studies about Unassisted Childbirth?
She links to it on her blog: http://rixarixa.blogspot.com/2009/01/born-free-unassisted-childbirth-in.html
If you're concerned that it will be a dull and difficult read because it is a PhD, don't be. If you have an interest in freebirth you'll get something out of it :)
mummykitty
16-04-2009, 02:53
this is such an interesting read ill deff point some of my friends towards it :) thanks for sharing
DoulaRobyn
16-04-2009, 03:34
Sorry for being a little off topic here... but, *excited* I attended my first ever freebirth (home birth unassisted, couple with me attending - me hands off) recently and I don't think anyone can fully understand the experience until you are actually present at one yourself.
Amazing!
Will go and read the link tomorrow when I am not up settling my bub - well she is 2.5... still a baby I say!
DoulaRobyn
16-04-2009, 11:16
Oh you make me want to write my tale out too... I don't even have time to read all of yours yet, but when I get home after work I will sit and read yours and then sit and write mine - interested in reading mine?
Mum2Bella
16-04-2009, 15:09
i think free births are the way to go,I had 2 at home n would love to have another but have complications with this pregnancy.
PunkyDiva
18-04-2009, 19:27
This is from a link on the site you posted and is exactly how I feel a certain forums members behave.
Very unethical and dangerous behaviour which has unfortuneately delivered the inevitable consequences.
The backlash of which has not only damaged chances of HomeBirth becoming a legitimate accessable choice for all and Midwives getting II so they can stay registered and therefore able to practise privately but also any good that was being done for change within our current Hospital maternity Services. It is very selfish behaviour on the part of privileged minority who appear to have no real empathy for individual informed choice and far better equal care and outcomes, for all woman.
I also perceive that "within the circle" there is some oneupsmanship when it comes to giving birth -- that those who UC are seen as having had the pinnacle experience, or *truly* "trust birth," and are in the upper echelons of the birth world, whereas those who have a hands-off midwife (preferably a lay midwife, or a certified midwife if necessary) are down a rung, and those who choose some CPMs or CNMs to attend their home birth are down another rung, and those who would like to give birth at home but just can't make that jump, so choose a low-intervention midwife or doc are down another rung, etc.
I don't know why that should be, but it is, in far too many places. This could happen in a lot of different ways -- for example, people trying to be just a little more frugal or environmentally aware than the next person. It's only unhealthy when you look down on people as being somehow less than you simply because they make different choices from you.
When I was pregnant this past time (2nd baby), I felt a strong pull towards non-intervention and UC. This "pull" wasn't from within, but because of the email groups I was on -- the ones that promoted not just home birth of any flavor, but they also specifically promoted UC as a peak experience. I felt almost like I was a sellout to want a midwife.
Not that I think most of the contributors intended it that way, but that's the way I felt.
Then I did end up not calling the mw in time, so had a UC, and would not want to repeat the experience. But I'm confident enough in my beliefs and experience and *myself* that I don't feel like I need to defend myself against the more vocal UCers. I merely give my experience, and they can take it or leave it as they choose. No big deal.
DoulaRobyn & Demeter...why did those woman need/want a Doula, what did/can you offer them that isn't available (plus more) with a Midwife ??
By being employed at a birth without a midwife you are acting as a psuedo midwife, does not the consequences of that misrepresentation of your abilities, not just for yourself but for all Doula's, concern you ? Are you aware of what is being considered because of recent deaths at UB's attended by a Doula ?
It just reeks of extremist behaviour that benefits none.
Very unethical and dangerous behaviour which has unfortuneately delivered the inevitable consequences.
The backlash of which has not only damaged chances of HomeBirth becoming a legitimate accessable choice for all and Midwives getting II so they can stay registered and therefore able to practise privately but also any good that was being done for change within our current Hospital maternity Services.
:iagree:
There's lot a lot I can add to sum up my feelings.
I am a staunch supporter of birth choices but I do believe that there in an onus on us all as women and members of society to understand the consequences of our actions.
On a personal note I also feel the elitism that PD refers to.
Demeter - I do apologise that this post is not really in relation to your OP about Freeze's Thesis. I may try to find a copy as it does sound like an interesting read
samsausage
19-04-2009, 11:48
It's this part of your sig Demeter that I am really struggling to understand:
This includes accepting the possibility of death and acknowledging that there are no guarantees of a perfect outcome with any kind of care provider
Whilst I can see what she is saying is absolutely true, I find it hard to agree that it's an acceptable stance. How can it be reasonable to decline assessment/assistance and then say it's ok if that decision results in death or disability to the child or mother?
I've heard many advocates of breastfeeding/anti RIC/lowering c/s rates/anti vax say that part of their passion comes from what is in the best interests of the child and indeed what can be considered their birthright (not saying I disagree with any of that just using examples). What about the right to be born alive and healthy?
I fully realise this would apply to a very small percentage of freebirths, but isn't even that small percentage unacceptable?
I realise that's all a bit of a ramble and I apologise for that, please take my questions as they are honestly meant, ie my effort to understand.
I suggest reading the thesis Rixa wrote about these issues which is linked in the OP :)
Its lovely to read from people who actually understand natural birth and can articulate how it is effectively.
Thankyou.
BTW to the PP I don't understand the elitism. Unless you mean I enjoy being a loner and misunderstood. I consider birth a deeply personal event and one I wish to share only with my husband. I am saddened that I shared the births of my children with strangers. I cry about it. I feel angry about it.
Fact is, we don't know that by declining assessment/assistance there is a higher chance of death or disability to the child or mother. This is an assumption.
A small percentage of births involve an unforseen complication. A small percentage of those MAY benefit from having someone there who can assist (eg resus the baby, try to stop bleeding in the mother).
How does this weigh up against the small percentage of births where the presence of a careprovider can cause major problems? How many babies have died because over aggresive resus has overinflated and ruptured their little lungs? How many PPHs have been caused by the "management" of the birth by a careprovider?
I don't think we have the evidence to say that planned freebirths are more dangerous than any other birth. Most people assume that they are but the fact is we do not have any evidence that this is so.
samsausage
19-04-2009, 17:27
A small percentage of births involve an unforseen complication. A small percentage of those MAY benefit from having someone there who can assist (eg resus the baby, try to stop bleeding in the mother).
How does this weigh up against the small percentage of births where the presence of a careprovider can cause major problems? How many babies have died because over aggresive resus has overinflated and ruptured their little lungs? How many PPHs have been caused by the "management" of the birth by a careprovider?
I absolutely agree that the current model of care provided in hospitals can cause more harm than good in some cases, absolutely without question. I also believe that this is 100% wholly unacceptable.
I guess what I can't understand is how the death of an infant or mother as a result of freebirth could be seen as acceptable either.
And yes I'm keen to read the full thesis.
Claire-Bear
19-04-2009, 18:14
I guess what I can't understand is how the death of an infant or mother as a result of freebirth could be seen as acceptable either.
How can you assume that it is the result of the freebirth? Babies die in hospitals all the time and no one ever questions if the mother regrets birthing in a hospital. How many baby deaths do you know were truly the result of birthing unattended?
samsausage
19-04-2009, 19:14
How many baby deaths do you know were truly the result of birthing unattended?
4 I am personally aware of.
Interesting. How do you know they were due to the births being unattended? Not disagreeing with you, just curious about the circumstances.
Ever since I birthed at home (mw-attended hbs) people constantly tell me their "My baby / I would have died if I'd been at home because..." stories. Interestingly, I haven't heard one yet where the facts convincingly point to an inevitable death; all would have had plenty of time to transfer or there was no real emergency at all.
Interesting. How do you know they were due to the births being unattended? Not disagreeing with you, just curious about the circumstances.
Ever since I birthed at home (mw-attended hbs) people constantly tell me their "My baby / I would have died if I'd been at home because..." stories. Interestingly, I haven't heard one yet where the facts convincingly point to an inevitable death; all would have had plenty of time to transfer or there was no real emergency at all.
:laughing::laughing::laughing:
Try a crash CS at 29+6 with Eclampsia and HELLP.
If I had tried to stay home even a little bit longer we would both have died as I would have started having seizures.
If you google crash CS it should give you some idea :yes:.
However many so called emergency CS are not really emergencys at all, so I do sort of get your point.
IMO foetal demise is something all mothers and midwives should strive to avoid. I will admit my view is clouded by having a hospy kid though.
samsausage
20-04-2009, 19:19
Interesting. How do you know they were due to the births being unattended? Not disagreeing with you, just curious about the circumstances.
They were jobs colleagues of mine attended which went to coroners court sadly.
:laughing::laughing::laughing:
Try a crash CS at 29+6 with Eclampsia and HELLP.
If I had tried to stay home even a little bit longer we would both have died as I would have started having seizures.
If you google crash CS it should give you some idea :yes:.
However many so called emergency CS are not really emergencys at all, so I do sort of get your point.
IMO foetal demise is something all mothers and midwives should strive to avoid. I will admit my view is clouded by having a hospy kid though.
...or the woman wouldn't have been birthing at home in the first place :)
I get your point, but obviously with such a major complication so early in the pregnancy homebirth would have been off the table long before the EDD loomed :)
I've attended a fair few crash CS and am fully aware of the very real problems that can occur in pregnancy and labour. However, a woman planning a homebirth, whether attended or not, isn't going to be staying at home twiddling her thumbs if she becomes ill.
DoulaRobyn
21-04-2009, 22:17
DoulaRobyn & Demeter...why did those woman need/want a Doula, what did/can you offer them that isn't available (plus more) with a Midwife ??
By being employed at a birth without a midwife you are acting as a psuedo midwife, does not the consequences of that misrepresentation of your abilities, not just for yourself but for all Doula's, concern you ? Are you aware of what is being considered because of recent deaths at UB's attended by a Doula ?
It just reeks of extremist behaviour that benefits none.
I can only speak of my experience here, my one experience.... to say that I attended the birth as an emotional support for the mother and the father involved. We spoke alot about the duties I would perform the people who attended were very sure that I was not trained in midwifery. We discussed in length what would happen if there was an emergency. If anything was to happen the husband was responsible for monitoring his wifes health needs and both parents were responsible for the health of the baby. My attendance was as a supportive friend, a visitor who happened to be there when a baby came into the world. As a calm person who had been in a birth space before. As an extra pair of hands.
Unnattended birth is not for everyone. There are many things to weigh up. Surely this is for the parents to assess?
I did not act as a pseudo midwife at my last birth at all. I was a doula - a positive, calm, emotional support with birthing experience.
Lets not generalise here. Each birth is unique.
Thanks Demeter.:thumbsup:
PunkyDiva
22-04-2009, 12:56
DoulaRobyn...thankyou for your reply to my question.
You most obviously work under the Code of Ethics for Doula's and I applaude you for ensuring those woman are aware of the limitations of your abilities and responsibility, and have action plans in place. Doula's in general do amazing work to help so many woman and I have the upmost respect for your dedication and skills.
Anyone not aware of these limitations and how/why many Doula's are acting as Psuedo Midwives should have a looksy at the DONA site.
Demeter I am saddened that when your opinions are challenged that you would choose to shut down rather then opening your mind so that you can say that your opinion is from a fully informed position or thinking outside of the box I currently do beleive you are in.
I apologise for my seeming aggressiveness and possibly personal attack on you. As I've stated before I do have a lot of respect for you and love to read what you write but there is a fine line that you have gone right over and I cannot sit back and allow even one woman to not be aware that there is most def another side. You cannot brush me off with "not having experienced freebirth" so no idea what I'm talking about. I've experienced the cascade of hospital intervention, text book hospital births on my terms (4 times), a freebirth that very nearly cost us the life of me and our child and am accompanying my daughter on her Home Birth with a Midwife journey not to mention the hours I spend talking with woman from all walks of life and experience, IM's and hospital based practitioners.
With your research for your book I would hope that you would contact and talk with freebirthers, like myself, who have experienced the downside of this choice and it's ramifications.
Nowhere do I see you or fellow freebirthers acknowledging this or us. Many had to be encouraged to submit to the MR because they had been made to feel so ashamed of their failure to freebirth with a good outcome.
Indeed it has been my experience to be unfairly judged hushed up and almost shunned by these freebirthing peers, my support through what has been an extremely turbulent year, simply because I chose to freebirth, having come from IM's and the very medical establishment that a lot of freebirthers do discredit.
Talking with and personally experiencing how private and HB Midwives do work would be extremely beneficial as well.
Your opinion may not change but at least you are fully informed rather then coming from the very limited knowledge, experience and skill base you do currently possess.
Inherent trust belief and the intuitiveness of woman to birth is undeniable.
Historically there are no cultures where woman have chosen to birth unassisted without the equivelent of experienced, skilled modern day Midwives.
It is not assumption but fact that abnormalities can and do happen in a heartbeat. As I discovered the woman can not totally rely on her natural abilities to know when medical attention is required. Who is to say who that woman is going to be ?? I certainly didn't wish it upon myself as some lovely freebirthers insinuated.
What are my personal costs of my choice to freebirth ??
Guilt that I placed my extremely competent,knowledgable, experienced and skilled husband in a position of choosing bubs life over causing extreme even life threatening damage to me.
My children traumatised by a bathroom that looked like a slaughterhouse, watching their brother be rescusitated by dad and thinking their mother was dead. My eldest son so much so that he won't even stay in the house whilst his sister births.
Hospital staff that had no prior or accompanying knowledge of my history or my labour, DH and I were in such shock that nether of us were very coherent, and therefore they were forced to make decisions on assumptions and visual presentation. For a long time I was angry at them at what I saw as OTT but I placed them in that position and now acknowledge my responsibility.
A Midwife would have taken nothing away from my labour and birth but I know she most def would have prevented the scenario we found ourselves in and have suffered the consequences of.
I dread to imagine the even worse pain, guilt, anxiety plus societal ramifications should my son have died.
My husband beleived in me and my body, thus supported my decision, he holds no grudge against me but would never support a freebirth again.
You simply can't, know or comprehend what you don't/won't allow yourself, to know.
PunkyDiva
22-04-2009, 13:36
The opinions of medical care providers falls outside of the scope of this particular project. Their perspectives are already well represented in the media and other books. The point of the book is to give insight into the women's experiences of freebirth and pehaps their friends/family/doulas who attended. It's about freebirthers sharing their side of the story, not about care providers opinions :) ETA: on this, of course I'm happy to chat with medical care providers about the project and freebirth, but in terms of including them in the book I feel they are not directly relevant to the project.
I did not mean you to include them in your book, rather for you yourself, as from your writing, I feel you have a very poor understanding of how Midwives work or what they bring to a pregnancy and birth.
PunkyDiva
22-04-2009, 14:11
Fact is, we don't know that by declining assessment/assistance there is a higher chance of death or disability to the child or mother. This is an assumption.
A small percentage of births involve an unforseen complication. A small percentage of those MAY benefit from having someone there who can assist (eg resus the baby, try to stop bleeding in the mother).
How does this weigh up against the small percentage of births where the presence of a careprovider can cause major problems? How many babies have died because over aggresive resus has overinflated and ruptured their little lungs? How many PPHs have been caused by the "management" of the birth by a careprovider?
I don't think we have the evidence to say that planned freebirths are more dangerous than any other birth. Most people assume that they are but the fact is we do not have any evidence that this is so.
It's not an assumption at all.
Many cultures you can read/research where woman have very poor outcome despite having a doula or support person with them. These doulas have become medically trained and not only were poor outcomes significantly reduced, but more woman were able to birth at home rather then being trasferred to a hospital.
People in medical professions do have access to better knowledge of these freebirth deaths etc then just what has hit the headlines. There has been huge increase in freebirth (it is reported when baby is registered etc) and it is not comparable to def stats we do have on homebirth outcomes. You'll just have to take that/leave it till it is publicly released, sorry.
Nobody denies the current Hospital model of practise is very poor and why so many of us are lobbying for reform.
In the meantime using Doula's to support and educate woman better is a amazing resource that def alters public hospy outcome.
It is through observations of IM's and high rates of good outcomes over past few decades that many standard hospy practises such as shaving, enema's, confinement to beds, foetal monitoring etc etc have changed or been discarded.
People in medical professions do have access to better knowledge of these freebirth deaths etc then just what has hit the headlines. There has been huge increase in freebirth (it is reported when baby is registered etc) and it is not comparable to def stats we do have on homebirth outcomes. You'll just have to take that/leave it till it is publicly released, sorry.Is there a study in the works? I would be very interested in that. I think one of the problems with raw statistics is that they don't seperate out which were planned freebirths and which were not. I think there is a very big difference between a planned freebirth and a drug addicted woman unaware of her pregnancy, and raw statistics don't seperate these. This has been a problem in the past (eg the infamous Pang study) where "homebirths" have a higher rate of neonatal death than hospital births, but included in homebirths are unplanned homebirths, late miscarriages, BBAs, etc.
ETA I am in the final stages of midwifery training and have encountered, in the hospital system, women who have had no antenatal care as they are mentally ill or drug addicted and unaware of the pregnancy. I have seen some pretty unfortunate outcomes. These situations are very different to the women I know who have planned to freebirth and have chosen to forgo formal antenatal care. I don't think it is accurate to lump these different circumstances together.
MelissafromSyd
22-04-2009, 16:48
The opinions of medical care providers falls outside of the scope of this particular project.
I'm assuming you're meaning midwives to be medical care providers? We're actually not medical care providers: we're midwifery care providers. Midwives do not practice medicine and the profession of midwifery is older than medicine.
MelissafromSyd
22-04-2009, 16:56
Many had to be encouraged to submit to the MR because they had been made to feel so ashamed of their failure to freebirth with a good outcome.
PunkyDiva, what do you mean about MR?
You most obviously work under the Code of Ethics for Doula's
I've not been able to find a nationally-accepted code of ethics and code of conduct for doulas that doulas must abide by. Can someone let me know if this is the case?
PunkyDiva
22-04-2009, 17:03
PunkyDiva, what do you mean about MR?
I've not been able to find a nationally-accepted code of ethics and code of conduct for doulas that doulas must abide by. Can someone let me know if this is the case?
Sorry, MR, the Gov's Maternity Review.
Lok at the DONA site, American site but very informative and I gather they are the original Doula's. There are codes of ethics and practise.
MelissafromSyd
22-04-2009, 17:05
Nobody denies the current Hospital model of practise is very poor
But the answer is not freebirth! It's up to women to challenge the hospitals and demand better care. Nothing will change unless women demand it. Leaving the hospital system will not force hospitals to be accountable.
MelissafromSyd
22-04-2009, 17:28
Sorry, MR, the Gov's Maternity Review.
Lok at the DONA site, American site but very informative and I gather they are the original Doula's. There are codes of ethics and practise.
Aahhh. Thanks.
I've seen the DONA site and there are other codes of ethics and codes of conduct - eg Australian Doula College (http://www.australiandoulacollege.com.au/more_information/doula_code_of_practice_and_ethics/), Australian Doulas (http://www.australiandoulas.com.au/code.htm), Doula UK (http://www.doula.org.uk/content/duk/doulauk/Code_of_Practice.asp), The Doula Register (http://www.doularegister.com/aus/limitsofservice.html), but as yet, the doula industry is not regulated and compliance with codes of ethics or conduct aren't mandated. I'm cynical, but I wonder if there's any point in having a code of conduct / ethics if you don't have to follow it and can't be struck off for not adhering to it. I some States, it is illegal for doulas to attend freebirths if they are paid attendants.
DoulaRobyn
22-04-2009, 17:59
PunkyDiva - I am sorry that your experience of freebirth did not go as planned - I had a traumatic first birthing experience, if you would ever like to talk about it please do not hesitate to PM me because the way you describe what happened still feels so raw. It has been over 10 years since my experience and it does get better - especially if you can find how to use this experience in a positive way.
Would you be able to tell me what actions you feel are crossing the line for a doula please - just so I can understand more the point you are expressing?
I am interested in what you have to say, I realise that you are hurting and that you have very strong opinions about freebirth (and for good reason), if you could try to not direct your answer at an individual it would make for a more positive experience for all, I just want to hear what you have to say from your heart.
Do you mean that doula's have no place in freebirth at all?
Remember this should be a safe place for everybody to discuss freebirth... everybody has an individual unique belief and that is ok.
Remember this should be a safe place for everybody to discuss freebirth... everybody has an individual unique belief and that is ok.
That would be lovely. :yes:
Assumptions are boring.
BreithCuidiu
26-04-2009, 09:04
[text removed by moderator]
Freebirth IS the answer for some women. We must stop dictating. We must stop "suggesting" that women should not follow their natural instincts to birth at home in their own time, and without assistance, if they see fit. It is not for ANYONE, not even Midwives, to tell us as women who can give birth where and with whom in presence.
I still want to know what Doulas have done so badly to clients, or to Melissa, to make her so unhappy with us. I feel that this is a fair call. Lots of us here want to know. We talk about it privately, so why not beg an answer here as a collective?
It seems to me that this thread, and indeed this topic, is going around never ending circles and no one is really managing to convince anyone else of their views.
In this and other threads recently, we've seen many women who one would expect would be supportive of each other (midwives and doulas, freebirthers and homebirthers) come to blows. There's no way anyone will be acheiving their (completely reasonable) goals of safe and accessible homebirths if the people who mostly advocate for these are fighting amongst themselves.
I urge you all to take a step back, think about your wider passions here. Think about what you all have in common. If you honestly don't think you can ever see eye to eye with another person, add them to your ignore list, but otherwise, let's move on.
Thanks. This is closed.
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