Ambiguous genitalia

[SPC]

This isn't really a circumcision question, but I'm interested to know the anti-circumcision person's viewpoint. I've looked after several babies with ambiguous genitalia. Usually we send off for chromosomes to see what gender they 'really' are. Sometimes they are one or the other, [xx or xy], sometimes they have non-standard sex chromosomes such as XXY. In the olden days parents were usually counselled to raise their baby as a girl, as 'girls are easier to make than boys'. So if they were chromosomally a boy, but had no scrotum and only a tiny penis, and maybe the start of a vagina, their parents would be advised to have the child's testicles removed, [usually they would be present in the abdomen], their penis all but removed and to have them given female hormones at puberty.

I always had a problem with this, as I considered it mutilation. Parents of chromasonally female babies who had very large clitorises would have their baby girls surgically altered so that they would 'look normal' and not be teased at school. But, I always wondered what kind of school these people went to!! Surely what is in the pants of a small child is entirely their own business and can be left alone until they are old enough to make some decision about whether they want to have bits of them trimmed down or removed altogether, or added to for themselves? We're talking 1 in 1500 births, so a fair number of children.

So, if your baby girl had a penis, or your baby boy a vagina, would you have them 'fixed' or let them grow up with ambiguous genitalia and decide for themselves? How important is it for a child to have genitals that look like everybody else's?

[reAllytee]

Now this is something I am VERY vocal about & have very strong opinions on.

I have watched a lot in regards to this & some of the outcomes & what has happened with a lot of these kids as they have grown & find it all very sad.

DP & I have always agreed that if any child of ours was born as such we would wait until they chose for themselves even if this meant a complete state move due to people inability to be accepting etc.

So while I may not be 'anti' circ ... Not sure what I am really but thats possibly because I have had two boys done now one being because I was naive & agreed at the time that it was due to medical reasons when it probably wasnt necessary & the other very much due to medical necessity so tend to be caught as I hate the idea of my child being classified as being damaged goods when he isnt iykwim !

But I do believe strongly in allowing a child to grow up if they have ambiguous genitalia & decide for themselves with of course a lot of support & love.

[misskittyfantastico]

I saw a doco and I think an episode of Oprah on this subject. People with ambiguous genitalia telling their stories. It was really eye-opening, how they as adults viewed themselves in terms of gender etc.

I think that my knee-jerk reaction as a parent would be that I'd want to "normalise" my child, but I'd like to hope that once I'd had time to digest the information, I would still choose to respect that my childs body is THEIRS.

[Pax]

a case like this was on House the other night and got me talking about the same thing.

I would leave the child as they were .. let them grow up as is. let them choose as a adolescent what they wanted to be.

why should they be anything at all?

isnt being infertile going to be hard enough?

perhaps they would like to be both? Androgynous?

if they dont, they will let you know.

[Freya]

I completely agree with you.

I find it so sick how the parents think they can choose for their child.:no:

[MimiGrace]

a case like this was on House the other night and got me talking about the same thing.

I would leave the child as they were .. let them grow up as is. let them choose as a adolescent what they wanted to be.

why should they be anything at all?

isnt being infertile going to be hard enough?

perhaps they would like to be both? Androgynous?

if they dont, they will let you know.
i don't say this alot, but i totally agree with you morrigan :shakehands::thumbsup:

[misskittyfantastico]

I completely agree with you.

I find it so sick how the parents think they can choose for their child.:no:

I don't know that it's sick. I would think it'd be quite confronting to discover that your child was different, there would be a lot of confusion and fear...grief even...couple those emotions with some dodgy advice and....

[Fuchsia!]

I think as a parent it would be extremely confusing and it would be bloody scary.

I would leave as is and hope that my child would become who he/she is wanting to be.

[Lilahh]

I agree with the above posters, I'd wait until they were old enough/mature enough to decide what they wanted to do. Sexuality/sexual organs aren't even a real concern to kids until they hit puberty anyway, its adults who impose those societal constraints on them.

Question: is this type of thing detectable by ultrasound in uteruo? Just curious.

[lukaelmo]

Well without having to face that decision, I can pretty easily say that I agree with what everyone is saying, and just leave things be.

However, what if there were decisions you had to make before the child could decide for themselves?

Little Luka was born with undescended testicles, and really undescended, way up in the abdomen. He underwent four surgeries to bring them down, and is now the proud bearer of one nut :D.

So yes, we interfered, because testicles left up in the abdomen have a high risk of becoming cancerous (it's too hot for them in the body, that's why they are housed "outside".

So what if you had a child that was leaning towards being a girl but who had testicles in her abdomen. You can't just leave them there for her to decide.

[misskittyfantastico]

Well without having to face that decision, I can pretty easily say that I agree with what everyone is saying, and just leave things be.

However, what if there were decisions you had to make before the child could decide for themselves?

Little Luka was born with undescended testicles, and really undescended, way up in the abdomen. He underwent four surgeries to bring them down, and is now the proud bearer of one nut :D.

So yes, we interfered, because testicles left up in the abdomen have a high risk of becoming cancerous (it's too hot for them in the body, that's why they are housed "outside".

So what if you had a child that was leaning towards being a girl but who had testicles in her abdomen. You can't just leave them there for her to decide.

:D At Luka's one nut. I imagine if there was a risk such as you've discribed, I'd have to intervene, just as I would if my son had a medical need for circumcison.

[OneBabyBoy]

Well without having to face that decision, I can pretty easily say that I agree with what everyone is saying, and just leave things be.

However, what if there were decisions you had to make before the child could decide for themselves?

Little Luka was born with undescended testicles, and really undescended, way up in the abdomen. He underwent four surgeries to bring them down, and is now the proud bearer of one nut :D.

So yes, we interfered, because testicles left up in the abdomen have a high risk of becoming cancerous (it's too hot for them in the body, that's why they are housed "outside".

So what if you had a child that was leaning towards being a girl but who had testicles in her abdomen. You can't just leave them there for her to decide.

:hugs: Lukaelmo, my son is the same. He has only one testicle now aswell. The pediatric surgeon advised me that he can get a prosthetic testicle for asthetic purposes (not functional obviously) when he's at least 16 years old, but obviously I'll leave that up to DS to decide.
I know of another man who only has one testicle aswell, he never bothered with a prosthetic and looks pretty normal actually. He also has absolutely no problem concieving children.

And to answer the OP, I would also leave it to the child to decide their own sexuality when they're ready.

[JabberJaw]

Having not ever faced this decision in reality, i would of course say leave them as they are for them to decide as they grow up.................

BUT...if i was faced with this situation in reality, after researching and speaking to doctors, i am unsure if my decision would remain the same...(although i would like to think it would, if that makes sense)

I think it would be a really really tough decision to make, and i would hate to have to choose without the consent of my child.

I am not sure how it would affect school life, because i certainally hope my kids dont go round pulling there pants down flashing there private parts to their mates, really i dont think the school issue would be to much of a problem, well not at primary school anyway, and by they time they reached high school i am sure a decision would have been made.

Only thing i would have trouble with i think is how i dressed the child, as a boy or as a girl....i guess i would have the test the OP mentioned and dress the child according to those.

[PKKXP]

Having not ever faced this decision in reality, i would of course say leave them as they are for them to decide as they grow up.................

BUT...if i was faced with this situation in reality, after researching and speaking to doctors, i am unsure if my decision would remain the same...(although i would like to think it would, if that makes sense)

I think it would be a really really tough decision to make, and i would hate to have to choose without the consent of my child.

I am not sure how it would affect school life, because i certainally hope my kids dont go round pulling there pants down flashing there private parts to their mates, really i dont think the school issue would be to much of a problem, well not at primary school anyway, and by they time they reached high school i am sure a decision would have been made.

Only thing i would have trouble with i think is how i dressed the child, as a boy or as a girl....i guess i would have the test the OP mentioned and dress the child according to those.

This makes a lot of sense to me. It's always easy to say what we would like to do when not actually faced with a problem and entirely different when you must put words into actions.

I also think a decision would have to have some basis on the results of the chromosomal testing and if there were any medical reasons for intervention.

Very tough question...

[Loopy Linda]

i honestly think i would choose to fix this. sorry. also i honestly don't see how this is different to many other surgeries.

would you leave conjoined twins joined till they could decide to seperate?

if a child had a turned eye would you chose corrective surgery?

if they had an extra digit would you remove it?

I am not talking about medically neccessary surgeries. if you had any form of abnormality that could be 'corrected'.

honestly i would try to make my child normal if i could. i would make the best, most well informed decision i could possibly make and i would choose.

[misskittyfantastico]

i honestly think i would choose to fix this. sorry. also i honestly don't see how this is different to many other surgeries.

would you leave conjoined twins joined till they could decide to seperate?

if a child had a turned eye would you chose corrective surgery?

if they had an extra digit would you remove it?

I am not talking about medically neccessary surgeries. if you had any form of abnormality that could be 'corrected'.

honestly i would try to make my child normal if i could. i would make the best, most well informed decision i could possibly make and i would choose.

To all ot the senarios you've mentioned, I would reply "not necessarily". If the child/children wants it, then yes, but not just because one is "normal" and the other "abnormal"

I found it so interesting to hear people who have both male and female sex organs speak. They identify with both the masculine and feminine - One said that to alter their genitals would've been like destroying part of who they are.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

I would leave them alone to decide for themselves at what ever age that may be.

Unless of course there were medical reasons why I could not, and had to make some sort of decision such as their life and health being at risk. Then I would try and do as little as possible to minimise the damage.

[lukaelmo]

He also has absolutely no problem concieving children.

Ooo I LOVE hearing that!!!

Thank you :)

[JohnC]

This isn't really a circumcision question

Actually, the two issues are more closely related than many might think. The debate about gender assignment was heavily influenced for decades by the case of David Reimer, whose penis was removed as a result of a tragic and all-too-common routine circumcision mishap. The parents took their son to psychologist John Money, who steered the gender reassignment (from David to Brendal), and used the case to publish extensively and influentially on how gender was "socially learned".

However, despite Money's efforts, Reimer rejected the reassignment, eventually published his story, and tragically ended up committing suicide. Money's theories have largely been rejected as a result.

The literature on this case, and the effect it has had on thinking about intersex children, is quite extensive (Google will get you started).

For a historical perspective, and an utterly compelling read, I would recommend the eponymous memoirs of Hercule Barbin, a 19th century chromosonal male with ambiguous genitalia who was raised as a girl (edited by Michel Foucault).

I have no one-size-fits-all advice on how parents should handle such situations, since we are talking about a very wide variety of conditions.

[newmum71]

i honestly think i would choose to fix this. sorry. also i honestly don't see how this is different to many other surgeries.

would you leave conjoined twins joined till they could decide to seperate?

if a child had a turned eye would you chose corrective surgery?

if they had an extra digit would you remove it?

I am not talking about medically neccessary surgeries. if you had any form of abnormality that could be 'corrected'.

honestly i would try to make my child normal if i could. i would make the best, most well informed decision i could possibly make and i would choose.

I would do the same.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

:confused: I don't honestly see how anyone can want to "fix" this type of gender issue.

Yes some of gender is socially conditioned, however we all have a feeling for who we are and that is not allways visible. I can't imagine growing up feeling like I was a boy or a girl or somewhere in between, only my parents had made me into somone else, someone who didn't quite fit. I guess it would be like being made to wear size 6 shoes all your life when you are a size 10. No matter what those shoes won't fit you!

I guess I just don't understand the need to parents have to make the child into something, so that they are comfortable with them- over the childs emotional wellbeing and life long happiness. Seems a no brainer to me.

[Mrs Nietzsche]

My daughter told me that there is a little boy in her year that doesn't have a penis. She did not seem to find this any more remarkable than say, the little girl with peanut allergy, or her friend who is missing a thumb.

No doubt the teenage years will be more difficult.

But I myself see no need to cut into a healthy body.

[Nowhere]

as usualy this isnt something that i can really say either way on unless I had been though it, Its so easy to say from the out side lookin in I would to this and that and stand the moral high ground but in in all honesty I dont know I would have to know all the facts and want to know the medical risks of not operations ie like a previuos poster said about the testicles being in there but in the wrong area etc

I wouldnt put my child through any surgery for pure cosmetic reasons but if there was medical need I would have to consider it


Before I had a child that was born with birth defects and not well I could like many others see things as black and white but now that i know that things dont always go to plan and you never know what wil happen or how your baby wil be born, I cant just look at things as black and white

[Loopy Linda]

and honestly i liken it to a parents choice to dress twins alike, or choose the style of haircut a child recieves. i know it is more serious and has longer lasting effects, but it is a choice each parent would make with everything they could learn and imagine factoring into the answer.

my answer most likely would be to do something. but i don't think the operation is the only answer. i think no matter what choice the parent makes counselling and reassurance and acceptance are going to be major parts of the child's wellbeing

[Loopy Linda]

My daughter told me that there is a little boy in her year that doesn't have a penis. She did not seem to find this any more remarkable than say, the little girl with peanut allergy, or her friend who is missing a thumb.

No doubt the teenage years will be more difficult.

But I myself see no need to cut into a healthy body.

out of curiosity how old is your daughter and how does she know? did the child tell her or was it another way. don't want to sound doubting, that is not the case, just curios if it was the child who disclosed this and how old he is

[JohnC]

My daughter told me that there is a little boy in her year that doesn't have a penis. She did not seem to find this any more remarkable than say, the little girl with peanut allergy, or her friend who is missing a thumb.
No doubt the teenage years will be more difficult.
But I myself see no need to cut into a healthy body.
Great post, well expressed. But let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment.

Otherwise normal boys, may suffer from a condition known as "buried penis". This may be developmental anomaly or (more likely) the result of botched circumcision, but in either case surgical intervention may at least assist.

On the other hand, consider this rather quaint case report from the Boston Medical and Surgery Journal of 1924:

The adult (aged 63) under observation states that he always needed circumcision and was so advised by various physicians. However, the matter was put off until he was 40 years of age, when he wished to marry and therefore had a circumcision performed; after which his penis promptly fell down the hole. He found no trouble with sexual intercourse that was satisfactory to both parties. His wife has three healthy children. He can have intercourse when he wishes but is rationally abstentious. In this patient when the penis is flaccid all is so smooth that a cursory glance from the side (lateral), when the man is lying down on his back, might mistake pad, penis, and socket for a vulva. However, at the least erection the lips of the socket are shoved apart sidewise and the penis projects quite as it should. Manifestly this patient neither required nor desires treatment.

[munchie]

Not a chance would I remove apart of my childs body for my own 'issues' :no: Just thinking about it makes me sick!

[Mrs Nietzsche]

Hi Loopy - he has been in her class since they were 5. She first told me when she was about 7. She and another little girl were both friends with this little boy (had play dates etc) ... in all honesty I am not sure how it came up? He had a couple of other health problems too and she told me about them all at the same time. That was the only time I ever heard anyone mention it tbh - it was straight after an incident where the boy's mother had been a bit worried about him.

[Pax]

some one mentioned how would you dress them for school.. boy or girl..

i think that is pretty simple you would ask the child - dress or pants?

by then though i reckon it would be obvious. you can tell the difference between little girl play and little boy play most of the time. so however the child 'swayed' would be obvious.

kids are fascinating people...

my son is all boy, he is blokeish and very manly looking.. he however is completely rejected by the boys and has only girl friends.

his comprehension and ability to communicate far exceeds all boys his age.. this is more a girl trait.

i think in this modern world, gender specific behaviour really doesnt matter anymore. it does a little when we are kids because kids are cruel.. but as we become adults, almost anything goes these days..

years ago, effeminate men would be treated badly and bashed, but 'tom boy' girls would be just humoured. i think many parents with kids like this in prev generations would have given their kids a better life to turn them into a girl.

these days, i think the child has a much better chance of being happy just left alone and if the parents are honest and supportive throughout their childhood they have a good chance of having a relatively happy life.

[Nowhere]

Not a chance would I remove apart of my childs body for my own 'issues' :no: Just thinking about it makes me sick!


So does that go for extra limbs digits etc as well

[misskittyfantastico]

So does that go for extra limbs digits etc as well

It's a pretty broad topic. I mean, it could be extra fingers, toes, a third nipple, or a limb poking out of a stomach. I still don't know. My urge is leave it be, as much as possible.

[Nowhere]

It's a pretty broad topic. I mean, it could be extra fingers, toes, a third nipple, or a limb poking out of a stomach. I still don't know. My urge is leave it be, as much as possible.


fair enough i was just curious thats all

[misskittyfantastico]

I guess I see sex organs to be different a bit to limbs or digits. To try and change or alter a childs gender, heck, I want to say sexuality, but that's prolly me being not knowing.

Oooh, that's another thread. "Would we choose to have our diseases/disabilities?':D

[Loopy Linda]

I guess I see sex organs to be different a bit to limbs or digits. To try and change or alter a childs gender, heck, I want to say sexuality, but that's prolly me being not knowing.



this is where i think the difference in opinion can start.

I don't see it as changing the childs gender or or trying to alter sexuality.

In all fairness this kid whether operated on or not is going to have some serious issues and will need long term counselling.

For me the operation would be just a part of trying to give the child some identity to start with. And if it turned out that i had done the wrong thing i am truly sorry but i hope i would have built a stable and loving relationship with my child where they know i did it out of love for them.

[Fuchsia!]

So what about if your baby had an extra finger? Would you remove it? My friends daughter was born with an extra finger and it was removed when she was about 1yr old and you can't even tell now.

Whats your thoughts on that one?

[munchie]

No I wouldn't remove apart of my childs body unless it was harming them. So for medical purposes, yes.

[munchie]

Who am I to go and cut into my childs healthy body just because it isn't the social norm. 6 Fingers ahh well, my child is going to grow up sooner or later and they can decide what they want to do.

[Lilahh]

So what about if your baby had an extra finger? Would you remove it? My friends daughter was born with an extra finger and it was removed when she was about 1yr old and you can't even tell now.

Whats your thoughts on that one?

they are completely different IMO. If a child is born with both types of genitalia, they could identify themselves as a boy OR a girl. If I choose to "fix" them as a girl or a boy as an infant, I only have a 50% chance of guessing right what they would want later on. Cutting off an extra finger doesn't change who they fundamentally are as a person. However, our sexuality is such a defining feature of humans. Trying to predetermine my child's sexuality is an experiment that can go horribly, horribly wrong. Cutting off a penis to make a girl when my daughter actually believes she is a boy and wants desperately to be a boy would be so traumatic. Changing them at infancy to protect them from being teased by kids at school is ridiculous. Kids are nasty, whether its weird genitalia or if you wear glasses. All you can do is give them skills to stand up to that, which will hopefully make them a better person. I would definitely, definitely wait until they hit puberty.

A side note: my DP has webbed toes. They are weird looking to me. I asked him why his parents never fixed it from birth. He said "because this is how I was born." I asked him why didn't he get them fixed when he became an adult, and he shrugged and said he likes his toes webbed and because thats who he is, a guy with webbed toes. So re-considering, when our son is born we might not even get an abnormality like an extra toe/finger fixed, DP certainly wouldn't push for it.
:wave:

[shockinamillion]

I know someone now as an adult who had this choice taken as an infant. This person grew up as a man and had 5 children and then a uterus was discovered after years of internal torment. This person now lives as a woman and is MUCH happier and comfortable with who they are.

I am not Anti circ, but I could not make this choice for a child it is MUCH bigger and more life impacting than being circed or not.

[Blueberry Crumble]

If the baby had one of each genital, I would have them chromosomally checked and if it was the boy, would have the vagina removed. If it was a girl, I would have the penis removed. If the baby was actually both, or "ambiguous" then I would leave be. I know as a woman I would not like to have a penis hanging between my legs. If a baby is born with its dead twin attached to its face, then yes I would get it removed. To me there really is no difference.

[Loopy Linda]

A side note: my DP has webbed toes. They are weird looking to me. I asked him why his parents never fixed it from birth. He said "because this is how I was born." I asked him why didn't he get them fixed when he became an adult, and he shrugged and said he likes his toes webbed and because thats who he is, a guy with webbed toes. So re-considering, when our son is born we might not even get an abnormality like an extra toe/finger fixed, DP certainly wouldn't push for it.
:wave:

i would like to say that your in laws must have done a great job and given your dh the skills to accept who he is and make his decisions. well done to them.

[reAllytee]

they are completely different IMO. If a child is born with both types of genitalia, they could identify themselves as a boy OR a girl. If I choose to "fix" them as a girl or a boy as an infant, I only have a 50% chance of guessing right what they would want later on. Cutting off an extra finger doesn't change who they fundamentally are as a person. However, our sexuality is such a defining feature of humans. Trying to predetermine my child's sexuality is an experiment that can go horribly, horribly wrong. Cutting off a penis to make a girl when my daughter actually believes she is a boy and wants desperately to be a boy would be so traumatic. Changing them at infancy to protect them from being teased by kids at school is ridiculous. Kids are nasty, whether its weird genitalia or if you wear glasses. All you can do is give them skills to stand up to that, which will hopefully make them a better person. I would definitely, definitely wait until they hit puberty.

A side note: my DP has webbed toes. They are weird looking to me. I asked him why his parents never fixed it from birth. He said "because this is how I was born." I asked him why didn't he get them fixed when he became an adult, and he shrugged and said he likes his toes webbed and because thats who he is, a guy with webbed toes. So re-considering, when our son is born we might not even get an abnormality like an extra toe/finger fixed, DP certainly wouldn't push for it.
:wave:

:iagree::yelclap:

My sister has a toe on each foot that hasnt grown because it doesnt have the full bone set other toes do iykwim so basically its like a little baby toe sitting above the others ... Hard to describe lol ! Anyhows my parents had the option to have it removed when she was a toddler but they chose not to because they felt it caused no harm.

My sister is now in her 40's & couldnt care less !

Yeah there were remarks through school if kids saw her feet ( even now at times too ! ) but otherwise its no big deal ... She does love freaking those who dont know out by them seeing her footprints though hehehehe.

By all means if there is a medical necessity due to health issues do it but sometimes its best to leave things alone ... That being said I think we all do our best to make the right decisions we can for our kids & sometimes that means making decisions which we think are in their best interests.

I guess until we really are in the situation we really dont know our reactions.

[Lillynix]

For me, the answer is pretty simple. No, I would not 'pick' which genitalia my child was to have.

This is something I feel very strongly about and have read/watched a fair bit about it over the past 2 years.

If I were to have a child such as described in the OP, unless there was a medical issue that would effect their health, they would remain untouched until they were at an age where THEY might decide to do something about it.

Gender, both physical and mental is something so powerful and complex that it should never be messed with unless it is done by the person involved.

How would you feel if you decided to run with female (say, based on the chromosomes) and yet your child grew up relating as a male rather than female...or vice versa?

I would much rather avoid those possible scenarios and let my child decide.

[Blueberry Crumble]

But the OP said that there can be chromosome tests done to determine if the baby is female or male. If the baby was male, would you have the vagina removed and vise versa

[Lillynix]

Absolutely not, Jbelle.

There are MANY people in this world (and I have watched/read about only a very small handful of stories from such people) and just because they have, say, female chromosomes, doesn't mean they will identify as female. That's what I was getting at when I said

How would you feel if you decided to run with female (say, based on the chromosomes) and yet your child grew up relating as a male rather than female...or vice versa?

A lot of the time (but obviously it's different for everyone) those who have ambiguous genetalia, regardless of whether or not it was "fixed" as a baby, identify with both sexes, both male and female, masculine and feminine.

So, how then would you feel as a parent finding out later on that your child who was born with ambiguous genetalia, but had female chromosomes, so you chose to "fix" them with female genetalia but have them grow up wanting to be male? Identifying as a male and feeling as if they were a male in the wrong body?

I would MUCH rather leave my children as they were and let THEM decide what genetalia they wanted depending on what sex the identified with, regardless of what the chromosomes say.

You never know, perhaps they would never change their genetalia ;)