Circumcision- pain?

[poppie]

Hi. I have just been reading a lot of posts about circs and many people say that they are happy to have their newborn done with no anaesthetic because they will forget. Yet at the same time they would not inflict that sort of pain on their older child. My question is, just because you may 'forget' the pain, does that make it any less painful at the time???

[Mathermy]

They said whaaaa????:eek::crying:

[JohnC]

Intentionally inflicting pain on infants in any other context is universally regarded as criminal. In medical settings, the unethical nature of this was finally, and belatedly, recognised by the American Academy of Pediatrics in 1999 as applied to circumcision.

Research has shown that infants actually feel pain more acutely than adults. This fact is often disguised by babies going into shock.

The "forgetting" argument is simply a rationalisation for what in any other situation would be regarded as unforgiveable, and unnecessary.

[beebs]

Oh god - that is horrible - that the little babies go into shock! :crying:

[BazzasMum]

I had both my boys done at different ages. At 3 weeks old DS2 was done by plastibell, which took all of 10 mins and only needed panadol once as it then goes numb before the foreskin falls off eventually.

DS1 was done at 9 months under GA - a totally different procedure - and he had stitches for 7 days or so. He needed panadol for a couple of days till they healed as it would sting when he pee'd.

If I had another boy I'd definitely do it when he was a newborn.

[delirium]

No circ I have heard of in the last 10+ years was done without anesthetic. My son was given a topical numbing cream, we waited 1 hour, then he was given a local. We would not have gone thru with it if there wasn't two forms of pain relief.

Apart from maybe a mohel, no professional dr will do it without pain relief.

OP can you direct me to one of these comments as I have never read anything like this on BH

[girly]

If we had a son we would have him circ when he is say 5-8 that way he can have numbing done. NO WAY WOULD I HAVE HIM DONE WITHOUT IT. I know ur thinking I shouldnt do it at all, but im happy for him to be done as long as he is numbed.

[girly]

Delirium

I thought they DIDN'T give babies(newborns) pain relief coz their bodies are too young?

I could be wrong..

[just her chameleon]

I'll be honest, I don't know much about the procedure. BUT if parents really are justifying it by saying they forget so it's OK...

:crying::(:crying::eek: I am crying right now thinking about it.

[Sheer Bliss]

I can't believe someone would say such a thing...it's just cruel. I have not seen anyone on Bh say it - thank goodness.

But on that note....because they can't remember it...it's OK?? Does that also make it OK in their eyes to sexually abuse a newborn because they won't remember it?? Or to inflict other physical pain on them? Seems like a silly thing to say IMO.

[forbetoel]

Just today someone on BH said that exact thing. Like somehow the fact that newborns don't remember the pain somehow diminishes the pain.:confused:

Look, I am anti RIC.... I just dont get it. It is just painful and unnecessary from my point of view, no matter what the age.

I understand for medical reasons it sometimes needs to be done, but if you take a look at statistics, this is very rare.

[JohnC]

No circ I have heard of in the last 10+ years was done without anesthetic. My son was given a topical numbing cream, we waited 1 hour, then he was given a local. We would not have gone thru with it if there wasn't two forms of pain relief.
Apart from maybe a mohel, no professional dr will do it without pain relief.
OP can you direct me to one of these comments as I have never read anything like this on BH

Well, I'm not the OP but you don't have to go too far to find assertions that boys should be circed as soon as possible because then they won't remember the pain.
We could start with this post (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showpost.php?p=3572609&postcount=13) from today. And there are plenty more.

However, Delirium, it would indeed be wrong to misrepresent the considered views of many such as yourself with the inarticulate posts of the few.

So what are the facts in Australia? (While not forgetting the vast majority of circumcisions worldwide -- male and female -- are performed without any pain relief.)

Well, the Australasian Association of Paediatric Surgeons actually released a statement on this in 1996. The relevant paragraph says:

Consent for surgery: Parents requesting circumcision of their male children should have the complications both general and local, explained to them. These complications are usually minor but can be severe and may result in the death of the child. Time should also be spent discussing the advantages and disadvantages of the operation, both in the short and long term, as is currently applicable in Australia. There are many adults in the community who hold a very strong opinion as to the place of circumcision. This may be for religious reasons or for family "custom" or a claim of "cleanliness" or other reasons. In this event the procedure should be performed electively after six months of age. When performed, it should be carried out by a surgeon performing circumcisions on children on a regular basis with an anaesthetist using appropriate techniques. This would imply that the anaesthetist is fully trained in the art of paediatric anaesthesia, including the ability to perform caudal and penile regional or local anaesthesia. The operation should be carried out in a paediatrically orientated environment, designed to reduce the risk to the child and providing support to the parents or caregivers.

Now these conditions are not met with the great majority of circumcisions in Australia today. They are performed by non-specialist GPs on infants using anaethetic methods that would be deemed unacceptable and insufficient in older patients.

Profiteering GPs like Terry Russell in Queensland have made millions this way, and they hide their flouting of medical practice guidelines by lying to parents.

The genitals of infants are not less sensitive to pain; if anything they are more sensitive.

I have no doubt you are sincere in your belief that EMLA cream plus local is sufficient but quite frankly very few boys or men who are able to express an opinion would agree with you when it came to their own penis. Let me cast the first vote!

[forbetoel]

John...that's the post from today that I was talking about.


BTW...great post ^^^^^

[delirium]

Delirium

I thought they DIDN'T give babies(newborns) pain relief coz their bodies are too young?

I could be wrong..

Yes, they DO give pain relief to newborns, and I would be seriously questioning the ethics and professionalism of any 'professional' that would not give topical and local pain relief.

John, I see in your quoted post that they say they don't remember, I don't read in there that no pain relief was used. Now not for a moment do I think using no pain aid is ok bc they don't remember, but generally, no one remembers stuff when they are 6 weeks old. Do you remember your birth? DH didn't remember being circed.

Now I know many here abhor this practice full stop, but lets consider it's method 30 years ago. MIL told me that when DH was born 38 years ago, that they didn't even ask if she wanted him circed. They just rounded up all the boys at the hospital, and circed them WITHOUT any pain relief. I felt sick hearing the story.

You all may think I'm a terrible mother, but there is no way in hell I would have had this done in the same manner as DH. Drs that do it without anything should be reported to the medical association IMO.

I want people to know that I am a good, loving mother that did what she thought was best for her child. He showed no pain after the procedure, and is a loved, well cared for little boy. I am not a horrible person, I did lots of research before we made our decision and my decision was made after several months of careful discussion and contemplation.

As for the subject of whether the cream and local work, why wouldn't they. As many anti circers here point out (and I agree) babies feel pain, and show that pain. My son had severe reflux from 2 weeks old, and let me tell you, he showed he was in pain. If topical and local anesthetics didn't work they would not be used in a myriad of surgical and day stay procedures.

[JohnC]

Now I know many here abhor this practice full stop, but lets consider it's method 30 years ago. MIL told me that when DH was born 38 years ago, that they didn't even ask if she wanted him circed. They just rounded up all the boys at the hospital, and circed them WITHOUT any pain relief. I felt sick hearing the story.

I agree we have come a long way, we just a ways to go.

[Mathermy]

Yes, they DO give pain relief to newborns, and I would be seriously questioning the ethics and professionalism of any 'professional' that would not give topical and local pain relief.

John, I see in your quoted post that they say they don't remember, I don't read in there that no pain relief was used. Now not for a moment do I think using no pain aid is ok bc they don't remember, but generally, no one remembers stuff when they are 6 weeks old. Do you remember your birth? DH didn't remember being circed.

Now I know many here abhor this practice full stop, but lets consider it's method 30 years ago. MIL told me that when DH was born 38 years ago, that they didn't even ask if she wanted him circed. They just rounded up all the boys at the hospital, and circed them WITHOUT any pain relief. I felt sick hearing the story.

You all may think I'm a terrible mother, but there is no way in hell I would have had this done in the same manner as DH. Drs that do it without anything should be reported to the medical association IMO.

I want people to know that I am a good, loving mother that did what she thought was best for her child. He showed no pain after the procedure, and is a loved, well cared for little boy. I am not a horrible person, I did lots of research before we made our decision and my decision was made after several months of careful discussion and contemplation.

As for the subject of whether the cream and local work, why wouldn't they. As many anti circers here point out (and I agree) babies feel pain, and show that pain. My son had severe reflux from 2 weeks old, and let me tell you, he showed he was in pain. If topical and local anesthetics didn't work they would not be used in a myriad of surgical and day stay procedures.

Delirium, while I abhor the practice of RIC, and cannot understand the thinking that leads to a decision to do it..

Not for a second have I ever thought you anything but a good mother & more than that a good human being.:hugs: I'm sorry if you feel something alternative has been suggested.:(

[delirium]

Thanks Malol :hugs:

[beebs]

I agree - I'm anti circ, but I have never thought pro circers were bad parents.

[Nowhere]

I havent had or never will ( unless for SERVERE medical nesesity like any other operation) had a childof mine circumcised so cant really coment on the level of pain HOWEVER, I have a seen my new born baby in pain both pain from ilness and post op pain from her first abdominal surgery she was in that much pain pre op The sound of her scream still to this day make me feel sick, She has gone through alot in he life but I can stil remember those cries vividly she was a new born baby at the time and some say they dont remember

Well if that is the case tell me this, Why when my DD felt a NG tube comeing her nose did she scream as soon as it was near her, I will tel you why because she knew it was going to hurt becuase she had had it done before, Why did my DD cry when she sore the boob at a week of age because she new it was going to hurt. Same with a bottle when we atemted to feed her oraly

The only reason that people get away with saying it doesnt matter when they are new born because they cant feel it, is because the poor defensless little babies cant day to them surgen "hey back the **** off that hurts" all they can do i cry and scream

This same thing goes for all neonatal surgery people tell you its all fine they wont remember well im sory but that doesnt sit well with me at all, How the heck do we know and how do we know that doenst cause trauma, If some one is in a car accident and get amneasia and cant remember what hapened to them does it then make it ok and not important cause they cant remember anyway NO it doesnt so why should it be any difernt with babies

Im not repplying to this as a for or against circ, Im repplying about the no pain thing etc



OH and the numbing cream that takes an hour to work thats Emla cream they use it to numb the skin before putting an IV in, Obviuosly some drs also use it before amputating part of a little boys anatomy as well

I have heard of some drs over here in WA doing new born circs with no pain releif at all, ( some use sugar water) but the surgens over here wait til they are 6 months old t least and its done under a GA

[forbetoel]

Delirum, you know how I feel about RIC, but that doesn't mean that I think you are a terrible mother. I hope you know that. I hate the procedure for many reasons, but I don't hate the parents or think they are a horrible person. I just don't understand why......hope you get what I am saying. :)

[delirium]

Sure, I get that 4B2L. I feel the way about termination that you feel about circ. But I don't think women that undergo the procedure are bad people at all, though I have trouble accepting it.

So I get it :)

[Fuchsia!]

No circ I have heard of in the last 10+ years was done without anesthetic. My son was given a topical numbing cream, we waited 1 hour, then he was given a local. We would not have gone thru with it if there wasn't two forms of pain relief.

Apart from maybe a mohel, no professional dr will do it without pain relief.

OP can you direct me to one of these comments as I have never read anything like this on BH

did they only use just the emla cream or something else as well?

It would imagine if didn't hurt while it was done it would hurt afterwards. What about when the faeces and the urine hits it?

Or when its rubbing on a nappy?

[delirium]

did they only use just the emla cream or something else as well?

It would imagine if didn't hurt while it was done it would hurt afterwards. What about when the faeces and the urine hits it?

Or when its rubbing on a nappy?

DH went in with him, I'm not sure of the creams name. After the cream was on for an hour, the local was given. I had an extensive conversation with the dr previous to making the decision as I was very worried about the pain factor. He assured me that with both forms of anesthetic that he wouldn't feel anything.

We gave him panadol for the first 24 hours. I worried about his first wee, which he happened to do while I had his nappy off. He didn't cry at all, and I swear that is the truth.:yes:

[Fuchsia!]

Oh cool so they used local as well?

I thought they just used the cream, and yep as far as I know its called Emla. Which is not always effective.

I use them for my injections and they don't always work, even after an hour. I usually jave to wait around 1 1/2hrs- 2hrs before it totally works.

[delirium]

Oh cool so they used local as well?



Oh yes :yes:. As I said, I would never have had it done without both.

[JohnC]

Medical practice varies quite a lot in Australia. By definition the GP circ clinics do not follow the AAPS guidelines I quoted earlier.

There have been several out-of-court settlements against doctors who have failed to provide adequate pain relief. The whole point of such settlements is of course to prevent the details becoming public.

None of this would be an issue of course if there wasn't RIC.

[ButterflyKissesX]

This thread has come to my attention, My DS got his Circ done 2 years ago by plasti bell Im sure he wasnt given a local or numbing cream I could be wrong!!

Does anyone no for sure weather they are given a local?????

[Issey]

Intentionally inflicting pain on infants in any other context is universally regarded as criminal. In medical settings, the unethical nature of this was finally, and belatedly, recognised by the American Academy of Pediatrics in 1999 as applied to circumcision.

Research has shown that infants actually feel pain more acutely than adults. This fact is often disguised by babies going into shock.

The "forgetting" argument is simply a rationalisation for what in any other situation would be regarded as unforgiveable, and unnecessary.
:iagree: poor poor babies. i told my ex it was over my dead body anybody would do that to my child.

[JohnC]

This thread has come to my attention, My DS got his Circ done 2 years ago by plasti bell Im sure he wasnt given a local or numbing cream I could be wrong!!

Does anyone no for sure weather they are given a local?????


You would have known if EMLA had been used, because it needs to be applied by the parent at least an hour (preferrably two) before the procedure. And if EMLA wasn't used it is highly unlikely injected local was.

Many doctors are reluctant to use local because while it reduces haemorrhage it can also cause swelling that creates difficulty with the Plastibell technique.

In any case, the penis is very difficult to adequately anaesthetise locally unless a full penile block is used (and GPs generally lack the required training for this).

This is why circumcision for genuine medical reasons is invariably performed in hospitals under GA when the child is old enough.

[OJandMe]

If a baby is circumcised using the plastibell method before 3 months / 6kgs then only the EMLA cream is used as it numbs the area fully.

If a baby is circumcised after 3 months/6kgs then a local anesthetic is also given.

This is the practice at the clinic where my boys were done as of 4 months ago when my youngest was done.

I can't speak for anywhere else.

But I'm pretty sure that in most if not all circumstances these days an anesthetic of some sort is used.

[JohnC]

If a baby is circumcised using the plastibell method before 3 months / 6kgs then only the EMLA cream is used as it numbs the area fully.

If EMLA numbs "the area fully" at two months, then why would it not do so at 4 months?

Any technique of infant circumcision involves making a dorsal incision and peeling the foreskin away from the glans to which it adheres through much the same mechanism as a fingernail adheres to a finger (except fingernails feel no pain).

If anyone believes that external application of an anaesthetic cream is adequate for this, then they are quite frankly kidding themselves.

The only reason this nonsense is peddled is to protect the profits of the "clinics" that perform the procedure.

[reAllytee]

I would never ever in a million years even ponder having something like this done without pain relief for bubs ....

[Nowhere]

emla is only a topical cream and will only numb the top couple of layers of skin, hense why some use it to numb little ones skin before putting a caunula in, you can tel it only numbs so far in cause little bubs still squirm and wimper when they dig for the vein

If emla is used to numb the area for a local then yer it likely doent hurt but just emla along i sure as heck wouldnt like that
Poor bubs

[JohnC]

The problem with these local anaesthetic strategies is that they don't work, as is perfectly apparent when they are applied to boys old enough to tell the tale.

One of the most notorious examples was reported in the Sun-Herald (http://www.noharmm.org/aborigine.htm) (reprint, original requires payment), where a nurse applied local anaesthetic before this procedure.

The situation is actually far worse for infants, whose foreskins are fully adherent to the glans. And the fact it is performed by someone wearing a white coat rather than "tribal paint" does not change things one iota.

[beebs]

One of the most notorious examples was reported in the Sun-Herald (http://www.noharmm.org/aborigine.htm) (reprint, original requires payment), where a nurse applied local anaesthetic before this procedure.



How distressing.

[JohnC]

And in news just to hand, EMLA - the most popular local anaesthetic for Plastibell circumcision - has now been linked to seizures, irregular heatbeat and breathing difficulties. Read about it here (http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/03/06/topical-anesthetics-warning.html).

[JohnC]

Okay, I have now retrieved the original advisory (http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/dhp-mps/medeff/advisories-avis/public/_2009/emla_ametop_pc-cp-eng.php), which includes this:

Children should be closely observed during and after use of topical anesthetics, as they are at greater risk than adults for serious side effects
Of course, since routine circumcision is by definition medically unnecessary there is an obvious solution to this increasingly messy pain-relief problem: Don't do it.

I would be deeply interested in any justification a responsible parent might have for subjecting their infant to this unnecessary procedure.

[javic]

I'm in the unpleasant situation of having a husband who wants to circumcise our child due to religious reasons. My friend was in the same boat and had her son circumcised at 2 weeks. I cried and cried when she told me her story but my husband still insisted his son had to be circumcised. My son is now 6 months and still has not been done. My husband was done at 3 years of age. Part of me hopes that if we delay it enough maybe my husband will change his mind (I'd say 99.99% chance he will not!) but another part of me thinks the earlier the better as I've heard smaller babies are less aware. I think if I told my husband "over my dead body" he would end up being ex-husband! Is it worse for my son to be circumcised or to have a broken home?? It is very hard for me to come to terms with and whenever it comes up it makes me cry. This is something we never talked about before having babies as I never realised it was essential for his religion. Most of the men in my generation were circumcised as well so it seemed normal to me, but when I did think about it I could not understand why it was not considered (as in the case of African female circumcision) to be mutilation. Can anyone give me advice to help me come to terms with it? It is so hard reading that it is child abuse etc and knowing that my husband will still insist it is done to my precious, darling baby.

[forbetoel]

I don't even know what to say Javic. How devastating for you. :hugs:

Sorry I can't be of more help, but I just really feel like giving you a big hug.

Is there any way he will change his mind? Does he have to be the one who decides?

I can really empathise with you - I would be absolutey crushed if I were in your situation. :(
I applaud you for having your sons best interests at heart. Goodluck! xoxxox

maybe start a new thread and you might get a lot more responses and hopefully some useful advice.

[Fuchsia!]

I'm in the unpleasant situation of having a husband who wants to circumcise our child due to religious reasons. My friend was in the same boat and had her son circumcised at 2 weeks. I cried and cried when she told me her story but my husband still insisted his son had to be circumcised. My son is now 6 months and still has not been done. My husband was done at 3 years of age. Part of me hopes that if we delay it enough maybe my husband will change his mind (I'd say 99.99% chance he will not!) but another part of me thinks the earlier the better as I've heard smaller babies are less aware. I think if I told my husband "over my dead body" he would end up being ex-husband! Is it worse for my son to be circumcised or to have a broken home?? It is very hard for me to come to terms with and whenever it comes up it makes me cry. This is something we never talked about before having babies as I never realised it was essential for his religion. Most of the men in my generation were circumcised as well so it seemed normal to me, but when I did think about it I could not understand why it was not considered (as in the case of African female circumcision) to be mutilation. Can anyone give me advice to help me come to terms with it? It is so hard reading that it is child abuse etc and knowing that my husband will still insist it is done to my precious, darling baby.

How heartbreaking and frustrating it would be for you :hugs:

Is there anyway you can find another person fro his religion that has choosen not to get it done and perhaps get your husband to talk with him about it?

So that he sees that he doesn't have to have it done?

Or perhaps convince your husband to wait till your son is 16 and can decide for himself?

What about you though? Why should his religion override your beliefs?

[JohnC]

This is something we never talked about before having babies as I never realised it was essential for his religion.
Which religion? Not meaning to pry, but it might help in providing some more specific advice.

[sakane]

It's interesting that people use the "get it done early so they forget" or so they "aren't aware of the pain"....but then use numbing creams. So what is it, does it hurt or not??

Surely once the cream has worn off there is pain and even then I can't imagine a panadol would help much.

I know that when I've been injured by way of cutting or by peeling of that piece of skin near a finger nail- that hurts for days...and that's pretty minor IMO and panadol does zilch.

I don't see how pain can be diminished because a baby is 'so young'...I'm pretty sure the nerves are just as sensitive.

[serendipity22]

I think people sometimes mistakenly judge pain by how loud a child screams.

A newborn feels more than a 6 month year old, though their crying is not nearly so loud (they only weigh 7 or 8 pounds.)

Circumcision has been shown to affect babies response to pain 6 months later, so clearly it is remembered for a while.

The pain becomes deeply buried in the subconscious. Early painful experiences can lead to neurotic behaviour in adulthood (like the dh who is adamant that his son is circumcised.)