View Full Version : Why don't you vax?
Hi. I would really like to know the reasons for people not vaccinating their children. I would love to hear what led you to make the decisions you have and where you got the best information from. This is not an anti vs pro vax thread. Just the facts please!
I posted a thread just like this a few months ago. I will try and find the link...I got heaps of replies but still can't really understand the reasons...:confused:
Thanks ck2b. I really want to understand more and get more info!
Fuchsia!
12-03-2009, 15:41
I researched everywhere i could, the library, the internet, forums. All anti, pro and in between sites.
My instincts told me that it wasn't the right thing to do, so i listened to them. I didn't feel comfortable injecting toxins, poisons, fetal matter, and live virus's into my young babies developing immune system.
I have read information where delaying vax's can have the exact same, if not better effectiveness when they are older.
I don't like the possible side effects from the vaccines. I weighed up my decision by looking at the risks vs benefits. For my child the risks of vaxxing were higher then the benefits.
The chances of my child contracting some of the illness's are very very slim, like diptheria and Polio.
I don't think german measles mumps and chicken pox are that serious.
The mennigcoccal Vax does not cover the real nasty one it only covers strain c.
Measles does worry me, i am currently looking into a seerate vax for that one.
Whooping cough is serious in babies under 12mths, my child is now over that age so even if he did get it the chance of him dying are very slim, although he would probably be very sick.
Up until the last month we did not come into contact with other children or pregnant mothers so it wasn't a risk for us. He started DC about a month ago and i re accessed the situation and i was still confident that not vaxxing was the right thing for my child.
As i said in another post, its not my babies responsibilty to protect the community, i feel its the adults responsibilty to protect the young and vulnerable. An adults body it much more equipped to deal with the toxins that are injected where as a young developing immune system of a babies shouldn't have to cope with it.
I would like to see the adult population be up to date with their vaxxes to help protect the young, we shouldn't be relying on herd immunity of the young but rather the older people.
Here it is...
http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=203492
Thanks jaxcoop. I appreciate your answers and I see you have put a great deal of thought into it all (although I am still such a pro vaxxer!:p)
Here it is...
http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=203492
Thanks:)
Milk_Monkey
12-03-2009, 15:56
Doesnt mumps cause infertility in men? Or is that something i made up :confused:
I researched everywhere i could, the library, the internet, forums. All anti, pro and in between sites.
My instincts told me that it wasn't the right thing to do, so i listened to them. I didn't feel comfortable injecting toxins, poisons, fetal matter, and live virus's into my young babies developing immune system.
I have read information where delaying vax's can have the exact same, if not better effectiveness when they are older.
I don't like the possible side effects from the vaccines. I weighed up my decision by looking at the risks vs benefits. For my child the risks of vaxxing were higher then the benefits.
The chances of my child contracting some of the illness's are very very slim, like diptheria and Polio.
I don't think german measles mumps and chicken pox are that serious.
The mennigcoccal Vax does not cover the real nasty one it only covers strain c.
Measles does worry me, i am currently looking into a seerate vax for that one.
Whooping cough is serious in babies under 12mths, my child is now over that age so even if he did get it the chance of him dying are very slim, although he would probably be very sick.
Up until the last month we did not come into contact with other children or pregnant mothers so it wasn't a risk for us. He started DC about a month ago and i re accessed the situation and i was still confident that not vaxxing was the right thing for my child.
As i said in another post, its not my babies responsibilty to protect the community, i feel its the adults responsibilty to protect the young and vulnerable. An adults body it much more equipped to deal with the toxins that are injected where as a young developing immune system of a babies shouldn't have to cope with it.
I would like to see the adult population be up to date with their vaxxes to help protect the young, we shouldn't be relying on herd immunity of the young but rather the older people.
i just have to respond to this as people who are seaking information read this forums to help with their decions. Vaccines to not contain 'Fetal matter' in the sense that this reads.
German measles, mumps and chicken pox are serious diseases - they can kill you. Chicken pox ( for example) put 1500 children a year into hospital and 8 children a year died before the vaccination. In the states with a bigger population 11,000 admitted and 90 die per year... <text deleted by mod>. Don't vax for whatever reason but these diseases are serious.
Doesnt mumps cause infertility in men? Or is that something i made up :confused:
Hi. I just looked that up and yes it can but it is extremely rare.
Mumps can also cause encephalitis for 1 out of 200 cases with a case fatality rate of 1%.
My friends husband was not vaccinated, had all the diseases and is infertile-but that could be from many reasons admittedly.
Thanks for all of your replies but I was really after why people have chosen not to vaxx. I already know why I do! Please be nice:o
Ill start off by saying that i am NOT a pro OR anti vax mum, im am all for choice.
My DS1 (now 3) has been immunised for everything bar the MMR, i did delay them though as i thought it was too much for his little body to handle, and he was a sick bubba.
my reasons for giving him the vaxs'?? I didnt research. i researched the MMR as I was worried about the Autism risk, but didnt research any others... just delayed for reason above
DS2 i did the same as Jaxcoop, researched like crazy, from all different sources, from pro and anti immunisers etc... i desided to delay his as well - to when his little body can cope with having them.
however, i got to the doctor to get his first needle done, and something in me (mothers instinct?) told me not too, something bad was going to come out of getting them done. I trust my motherly instinct, so walked out. hes never been vaxxed.
i know that probably doesnt help you at all, but i thought id put it out there anyway :)
Ill start off by saying that i am NOT a pro OR anti vax mum, im am all for choice.
My DS1 (now 3) has been immunised for everything bar the MMR, i did delay them though as i thought it was too much for his little body to handle, and he was a sick bubba.
my reasons for giving him the vaxs'?? I didnt research. i researched the MMR as I was worried about the Autism risk, but didnt research any others... just delayed for reason above
DS2 i did the same as Jaxcoop, researched like crazy, from all different sources, from pro and anti immunisers etc... i desided to delay his as well - to when his little body can cope with having them.
however, i got to the doctor to get his first needle done, and something in me (mothers instinct?) told me not too, something bad was going to come out of getting them done. I trust my motherly instinct, so walked out. hes never been vaxxed.
i know that probably doesnt help you at all, but i thought id put it out there anyway :)
Thanks for your reply. It is great to hear your different reasons for vaxxing one child and not the other. There is something about instinct that just can't be explained.
Please show your respect for the OP and the importance of this issue by discussing the reasons you choose NOT to vax. Personal attacks on other members, or other member's opinions, will be deleted.
jayisa02
12-03-2009, 17:07
My DS was completely vaxxed on schedule up to and including his 12 mths shots. He had a major reaction to the MMR vaccine and was hospitalised. We were told not to give him the second dose which we didnt.
Now after seeing him so sick from the vaccination we decided to not vaccinate our DD (now nearly 20mths old). To date she has had no vaccinations at all
Our decision has been made with great thought and discussion and has not been an easy one at all. We have received all sorts of negative comments etc but do believe we are doing what is right for our DD at this stage.
Hep B does not concern me as it is spread mainly by needles and sex. I don't consider the risk high enough to risk an adverse reaction or compromising their immune systems.
Measles is slightly more scary but I believe in a healthy child it is probably ok. I had it, my brothers had it, my friends and cousins had it. Yes, it can be nasty, but again.....the risk isn't high enough for me to vax.
Mumps doesn't worry me.....don't remember when I last heard of Mumps. Again, I had it, my brothers had it....etc etc
Rubella is a mild disease. If my DD hasn't had it by the time she's 15 or so, she will probably get the vax. My heart goes out to anyone who has had Rubella in pregnancy:( but I wouldn't risk a vaccine reaction/compromised immune system on the off chance that they MAY get Rubella and MAY give it to a pregnant woman who MAY not have immunity.
Meningococcal - don't know much about this one but it is my understanding that there isn't a vax for the deadly B strain, only the milder one? Don't quote me though;)
Diptheria - sounds horrible but there doesn't seem to be much of it around.
Tetanus - a bit scary, but the vax is scarier (to me). Yes, they MAY get a puncture wound which MAY have tetanus in it.....but the risk seems lower than the possible complication from a vax which they will definitely get (the vax I mean, not the complication:))
Didn't explain that very well did I?:o
Pertussis! Now here is a whole different kettle of fish and I will admit that it SCARES THE .... out of me.....mainly because I have a 12 wk old DD and there is an outbreak in my area. My 4yo DS brought WC home and gave it to my DH right when DD was born, so we bought a newborn home to a dad with infectious WC:( We (the baby, DH and I) all took antibiotics (which killed me.....giving them to a little bub just in case).
IF you could get Pertussis vax without the rest of the crap, I might consider it for DD right now. Maybe..... But what do you do when your instinct screams NO!!!!!!????
Ah....what else is there?
Polio - not around anymore.
I am convinced there are far more adverse reactions than are reported. Also, what is an adverse reaction to me, may not be for someone else. I have heard of babies high-pitched screaming for days after a vax. To some that is normal.....but to me there's something not right about putting a tiny helpless baby through what can only be terrible pain:( and casually saying, oh just give her panadol, she'll be right. And that's just one "normal" reaction....there are many others that don't seem right to me.
To take a perfect little body and immune system and try to make it better......doesn't make sense to me.
Having said all that......I understand why people vax and they are welcome to it. I do wish some people were a bit less judgemental about those who choose to do things differently though.
I selective vax my DD2. DD1 has been fully vaxxed to schedule. Well except the flu shot because I just don't see the point in that.
I opted out of the rotavirus vax. It wasn't around with DD1 so never had to think about it. DD2 I didn't get it for a few reasons....
a) it was taken off the market just a few years ago for causing major bowel damage. They have supposedly fixed the problem but they will not use the vax on any babies over 6 months old because they haven't tested babies of that age. Just doesn't fill me with loads of confidence.
b) I didn't think my two month old needed any more things added to her tiny little body. What they already get on schedule is more than enough as far as I'm concerned.
c) A side effect of that vax is babies going off their food for a few days. I don't think it's ideal for a two month old to not be drinking much for a few days.
d) It's one case of gastro....just one. And yes it's the one that is most common to hospitalise babies but by the time they are 2 the risks of it are dramatically reduced.
e) I had a ebf, non daycare baby. The chances of her catching rotavirus were slim anyway, but if she did she had the benefits of breastmilk to help her.
All in all, I decided that one just wasn't worth it for me.
I haven't got DD2 the MMR vax yet even though she's 18 months. I will have her done. When she's two. There's just not enough evidence for me to sway me that it must be done at 12 months, and in the US some states have it on schedule to be done at two years so I feel like we are jumping the gun a little bit. I hate that you can't get it seperate. I actually don't want to vax against Rubella because the only way to guarantee immunity is by getting the German Measles, which is a rather mild disease....it's just dangerous for pregnant women. I do have natural immunity against rubella so the fact that DD2 is still being bf means she has immunity to it to. When DD2 stops bf'ing...if I know of someone with the german measles I'll be taking DD2 over to play. I want to vax against the measles and the mumps, not rubella.
Also, DD1 had a reaction to it. It was mild, but a reaction none the less and I figured it'd be better to wait until DD2 was older before getting her vax.
Chicken Pox I did DD1 cause there was about to be a newborn in the house and I know of a two week old baby who almost died from the CP so I wanted a bit of herd immunity in my own family. There's no need for DD2 to have it...no newborn babies so will get it for her down the track if she doesn't catch them along the way.
The biggest thing for me was both my daughter's have life threatening allergies. I never really gave it much thought with DD1 but as DD1 isn't growing out of her allergies I decided it was probably a good idea to not pump DD2's body full of nasty chemicals and preservatives while her digestive system is clearly immature. I'm hoping that by delaying some vax's and being selective in what she gets she has a fighting chance of growing out of her allergies. There's no evidence to suggest this...but it's what my motherly instinct is telling me so I'm going with it.
If I was to have any more children they wouldn't get the Hep B vax at birth, or the Vit K injection and I'd probably delay their whole schedule....start them at 4 or 6 months instead of two in hopes that there dgestive system would be a little more mature. Bpoth my DD's food allergies became apparent at 4 months so it would be nice to get past that point so I could rule out vax's being the cause and maybe ease some mother guilt that I have.
I selective vax my DD2. DD1 has been fully vaxxed to schedule. Well except the flu shot because I just don't see the point in that.
I opted out of the rotavirus vax. It wasn't around with DD1 so never had to think about it. DD2 I didn't get it for a few reasons....
a) it was taken off the market just a few years ago for causing major bowel damage. They have supposedly fixed the problem but they will not use the vax on any babies over 6 months old because they haven't tested babies of that age. Just doesn't fill me with loads of confidence.
b) I didn't think my two month old needed any more things added to her tiny little body. What they already get on schedule is more than enough as far as I'm concerned.
c) A side effect of that vax is babies going off their food for a few days. I don't think it's ideal for a two month old to not be drinking much for a few days.
d) It's one case of gastro....just one. And yes it's the one that is most common to hospitalise babies but by the time they are 2 the risks of it are dramatically reduced.
e) I had a ebf, non daycare baby. The chances of her catching rotavirus were slim anyway, but if she did she had the benefits of breastmilk to help her.
All in all, I decided that one just wasn't worth it for me.
I haven't got DD2 the MMR vax yet even though she's 18 months. I will have her done. When she's two. There's just not enough evidence for me to sway me that it must be done at 12 months, and in the US some states have it on schedule to be done at two years so I feel like we are jumping the gun a little bit. I hate that you can't get it seperate. I actually don't want to vax against Rubella because the only way to guarantee immunity is by getting the German Measles, which is a rather mild disease....it's just dangerous for pregnant women. I do have natural immunity against rubella so the fact that DD2 is still being bf means she has immunity to it to. When DD2 stops bf'ing...if I know of someone with the german measles I'll be taking DD2 over to play. I want to vax against the measles and the mumps, not rubella.
Also, DD1 had a reaction to it. It was mild, but a reaction none the less and I figured it'd be better to wait until DD2 was older before getting her vax.
Chicken Pox I did DD1 cause there was about to be a newborn in the house and I know of a two week old baby who almost died from the CP so I wanted a bit of herd immunity in my own family. There's no need for DD2 to have it...no newborn babies so will get it for her down the track if she doesn't catch them along the way.
The biggest thing for me was both my daughter's have life threatening allergies. I never really gave it much thought with DD1 but as DD1 isn't growing out of her allergies I decided it was probably a good idea to not pump DD2's body full of nasty chemicals and preservatives while her digestive system is clearly immature. I'm hoping that by delaying some vax's and being selective in what she gets she has a fighting chance of growing out of her allergies. There's no evidence to suggest this...but it's what my motherly instinct is telling me so I'm going with it.
If I was to have any more children they wouldn't get the Hep B vax at birth, or the Vit K injection and I'd probably delay their whole schedule....start them at 4 or 6 months instead of two in hopes that there dgestive system would be a little more mature. Bpoth my DD's food allergies became apparent at 4 months so it would be nice to get past that point so I could rule out vax's being the cause and maybe ease some mother guilt that I have.
Just a note on Rotavirus...The rotavirus vaccine that had links to bowel problems ( intussusception-a form of bowel obstruction) was never issued in Australia and it's make-up was markedly different to the ones used here. Also 15,000 children a year where admitted to hospital with Rota-virus but not sure what percentage that made up of infected children.
My ds is nearly 12 months and is fully vaxxed, unfortunatly I was naive and thought it was the thing to do, now I am a bit wiser and after reading your posts I am now looking further into it before I make the next step.
Thankyou for your information.
Wow. Thanks for all of your detailed replies. You have all certainly thought long and hard about your decision not to vax or to delay vaxxing. I am pro vax, but in saying that, I work in a high risk area and am exposed to all sorts of infectious diseases. I make sure I am up to date with my shots (and my DD's) primarily because of what I could pick up and bring home from work. I am not sure what I would do if I worked in another industry. I am coming around to the idea of delayed vaxxing though. My DD1 was 11kg at 12 months and DD2 was 7.5kg. I was not altogether comfortable with DD2 getting the same dose as DD1 so I did wait a little with her.
I do have another question for you all....what do you do when there is a known outbreak of something like W.C at say your child's daycare or school? Do they have to stay away for a certain time frame? Do you freak out if you know your child has been exposed? Also, would you consider vaxxing your child if you had to go O.S? I am not sure if you have to or not. Thanks again and sorry, I can't count, more like 4 more questions :laughing:
Just a note on Rotavirus...The rotavirus vaccine that had links to bowel problems ( intussusception-a form of bowel obstruction) was never issued in Australia and it's make-up was markedly different to the ones used here. Also 15,000 children a year where admitted to hospital with Rota-virus but not sure what percentage that made up of infected children.
Yes I know this...thankyou. But it still does not give me any confidence with the vax. I discussed it in depth with my gp at the time and am well aware of the amount of cases of rotavirus...but you know what. My DD1 was hospitalised at 6 1/2 months with bronchiolitis, we came home and I bought home rotavirus with us. Dh and I both got it...DD1, who was still fighting off bronchioloitis so already had her immune system compromised was fine.
The OP was asking why people chose not to vax. I expressed why I didn't vaccinate against the rota virus vax. I'm happy and confident with my decision and I did a lot of research first.
Fuchsia!
12-03-2009, 21:43
Again for me its risks vs benefits. If i were to go overseas i would have a look at the stats, talk to a professional, do my research and weigh it all up. If the risks of vaxxing are still higher then the benefits then i wouldn't vax.
As for the DC question, it would depend on teh outbreak. If it was chicken pox or german measles i would most likely still keep him in. If it was measles or something more serious i would take him out until i think that it is safe to put him back in.
He has been vaxxed for whooping cough so hopefully that would give hims some coverage. I would still consider taking him out though as that vax is IMO very unreliable.
I have asked my DC and they have never had an outbreak with one of the more serious diseases so hopefully it stays that way.
to answer your next lot of questions :)
if there was a major outbreak near us, and dependant on what it is... then yes, i would be the first to get DS2 immunised against it, because, the risk vs benefit is then reverse (ie at the moment the chances of him having a reaction to the imm. is higher than him getting the disease, yet if there was an outbreak then it is more likely that he will get the disease than reaction from the imm.) however, with just one case then i would just keep them out of daycare.
if we were going overseas then i would research the immunisations and compare risk/benefit. but most likely would get them done.
everything i do is based on risk vs benefit vs mothers instinct. :)
(i hope this makes sence!) lol
NibbleCurlynBub
12-03-2009, 21:51
My instincts also told me its not the right thing to do.
I went beyond them anyway, but gee I wish I hadn't. :no:
I suppose that portion of doubt in my mind, though I have ignored it for a LONG time, was the part of me that made me look into it further.
Its like any other parenting decision, it either suits you and seems right or it doesn't.
I do have another question for you all....what do you do when there is a known outbreak of something like W.C at say your child's daycare or school? Do they have to stay away for a certain time frame? Do you freak out if you know your child has been exposed? Also, would you consider vaxxing your child if you had to go O.S? I am not sure if you have to or not. Thanks again and sorry, I can't count, more like 4 more questions :laughing:
Ok well my girls are vax against whooping cough but generally speaking, if there was something going around her pre-school I would keep DD1 at home if it was something DD2 wasn't vax. against. In saying that I intend of keeping DD1 home if I check the board and it says gastro is going through her room. I just hate gastro and will avoid knowingly exposing myself to it if at all possible. Seems like in this family, if one of us gets it we all get it (except my bf, non vaxed for rotavirus 18 month old who the only time she has had gastro was when she started it. Anytime it's gone through our house that someone else has started it she's been fine).
I don't freak out if they're exposed. I was told of a measles outbreak when delaying DD2's MMR but it didn't change my mind. On a similar note both my girls have been vaxed for whooping cough but both were recently tested for it. They didn't have it, and I was grateful but I was very torn between feeling thankful that they were vaxed for it so would hopefully have a milder case and being upset that all those chemicals may have been injected in to their little bodies for nothing if they weren't immune.
I am fully up to date on my vax's. Well minus the flu shot and the cervical cancer shot cause I am never, ever having those done and won't allow my girls to have the gardisal vax done when they come of age either. I'm definitely anti that vax. I'm not anti vax in genral though. I just think it's a lot for a little baby to go through. I wish I'd thought about it more with DD1. At 12 months she was 8kg....a failure to thrive baby after being 4.1kg born. I'm sure that vax her to schedule wasn't the smartest thing I could've done.
If we went overseas it would depend on where we were going. As it currently stands, we aren't planning any overseas trips for many years to come so they'll likely be fully vaxxed before that happens and will get any additional vax's required for that country.
I guess so much of it is experience. My DD1 had a severe bout of rotavirus at 6 months old, we still have no idea where from. She was never in care, and only around kids we know and none of them had been ill. She was so ill and lost a great amount of weight. Therefore, we vaxxed DD2 when it became available because of what we had been through.
Anyway, I am loving all of your answers and your kids are lucky to have parents who care so much about them to make all of these hard decisions, either way.
I have to make the decision to go to bed now because I may land head first on the keyboard anytime now (please sleep tonight little possum:fingerscrossed:).
Hope to catch more of you in the morning!:yelclap:
I guess so much of it is experience. My DD1 had a severe bout of rotavirus at 6 months old, we still have no idea where from. She was never in care, and only around kids we know and none of them had been ill. She was so ill and lost a great amount of weight. Therefore, we vaxxed DD2 when it became available because of what we had been through.
Anyway, I am loving all of your answers and your kids are lucky to have parents who care so much about them to make all of these hard decisions, either way.
I have to make the decision to go to bed now because I may land head first on the keyboard anytime now (please sleep tonight little possum)
Hope to catch more of you in the morning!:yelclap:
May i just say, thank you for being a pro-vaxxer that is interested in hearing our reasons and not disagreeing with all we say :) :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
I guess so much of it is experience. My DD1 had a severe bout of rotavirus at 6 months old, we still have no idea where from. She was never in care, and only around kids we know and none of them had been ill. She was so ill and lost a great amount of weight. Therefore, we vaxxed DD2 when it became available because of what we had been through.
Anyway, I am loving all of your answers and your kids are lucky to have parents who care so much about them to make all of these hard decisions, either way.
I have to make the decision to go to bed now because I may land head first on the keyboard anytime now (please sleep tonight little possum:fingerscrossed:).
Hope to catch more of you in the morning!:yelclap:
With the rotavirus it was risk vs benefit for me. I decided there was a greater risk from the vax than the chance of her catching the virus and having it be a serious case.
I don't mind answering your questions, actually happy to, because you are listening to us and despite whether you agree or not you aren't trying to ram facts down our throats and get us to change our minds. It's like a breath of fresh air really so thankyou for being open minded and willing to see it from the other side (even if you always continue to vax on schedule....not here to persuade you to think like I do).
Fuchsia!
12-03-2009, 22:01
May i just say, thank you for being a pro-vaxxer that is interested in hearing our reasons and not disagreeing with all we say :) :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
I agree, its a breath of fresh air. Its nice to have someone have our decisions respected for once. :yelclap:
KatiesMum
12-03-2009, 22:37
Its nice to read a thread full of what people did, and why, but without the judgement and accusations on either side.
I am finding it really interesting and informative.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
NibbleCurlynBub
12-03-2009, 22:38
I agree.
It is a very good trait to be able to listen openly to a decision you might not understand or agree with in order to gain knowledge as to why.
Its nice. :)
can i ask:
If you chose not to vax. You miss out on the immunisation allowance.......right?
Or do you get it anyway?:confused:
sorry for the double post but
Again for me its risks vs benefits. If i were to go overseas i would have a look at the stats, talk to a professional, do my research and weigh it all up. If the risks of vaxxing are still higher then the benefits then i wouldn't vax.
dont you HAVE to get vaccinated?? (both adults and children?) if you want to go over seas
NibbleCurlynBub
12-03-2009, 22:50
can i ask:
If you chose not to vax. You miss out on the immunisation allowance.......right?
Or do you get it anyway?:confused:
You get the immunisation allowance not for vaxxing, but for having bubs immunisation status updated with the registry.
Be it a CO form letting them know you won't be vaccinating or a form from your Dr saying that you have, you get it for keeping the details in the system updated. :)
can i ask:
If you chose not to vax. You miss out on the immunisation allowance.......right?
Or do you get it anyway?:confused:
Yes, if you fill out a conscientious objection to vaccination form and submit it to medicare/family assistance before your child is 18 months/2 years old, you still get the 'immunisation allowance' it's more of an allowance for declaring your childs vax status than a prize for vaxxing, it was money that was part of the old maternity payments, so it cannot be completely based on if you vax or not, as vaccination is a CHOICE, so withholding the payment based on vax status would be discriminatory.
sorry for the double post but
dont you HAVE to get vaccinated?? (both adults and children?) if you want to go over seas
We are non vaxxers at this stage and went overseas (Dubai, Germany, Singapore and Holland) last year. I looked long and hard into the vaccines that were recommended as well as the diseases (mostly using the WHO website) and we decided against having them. No, you don't have to get the vaxxes, you never 'have to.' :)
Wherever we travel in the future I will do the same thing.....each vaccination decision is made on a case by case basis.:yes:
Fuchsia!
13-03-2009, 07:55
can i ask:
If you chose not to vax. You miss out on the immunisation allowance.......right?
Or do you get it anyway?:confused:
sorry for the double post but
dont you HAVE to get vaccinated?? (both adults and children?) if you want to go over seas
Vaccines are not compulsory despite what the government try to make you think.
They can blackmail you with CCB with daycare though. YOu can't get the child care rebate if you haven't vaxxed or given family assis. a CO form (the same CO form that just loves to disapear in most cases :rolleyes:)
I do have another question for you all....what do you do when there is a known outbreak of something like W.C at say your child's daycare or school? Do they have to stay away for a certain time frame? Do you freak out if you know your child has been exposed? Also, would you consider vaxxing your child if you had to go O.S? I am not sure if you have to or not. Thanks again and sorry, I can't count, more like 4 more questions :laughing:
Hmmmm Whooping Cough is a tricky one. It's infectious period is the first 3 weeks and during this time it often presents as a simple dry cough. Once the whooping starts (paroxysmal stage) it's not always infectious anymore, so often once it's identified in a school or daycare, it's already been passed on. Plus, outbreaks go on for months so how can you keep your child out? I continued to send my DS to daycare and he did get it, but I think it was from another friend who came to play. I'm pretty certain the tests aren't always accurate too.....my friend's little girl who definitely had it, tested negative in a blood test:confused: And lots of families we know had the nose swabs and they were negative too, yet they had the 12 week choking cough.
Anyway I don't have to worry about DS bringing WC home anymore. He had it, it was unpleasant, but the good thing about it was that the coughs were few and far between and he felt fine in between them. I was surprised at how mild it was but I definitely wouldn't want my baby to get it. DH was a different matter - he felt like he was dying!
As for measles - I think unvaxed children have to stay home anyway, but I would probably not knowingly let my DS near measles but it's mostly because I wouldn't want him to bring it home to the baby. Although, she is breastfed and I have natural immunity to measles, having had it as a child, so she may be protected....but I still wouldn't want to test it.
Bit the same for chicken pox....I would love my DS to get it while he's a child, but wouldn't want my baby to get it right now.
These childhood diseases are believed in some circles to be milestone diseases ie....the child has a leap in development after going through and recovering from them. Of course, there are many of you who will scoff at this, but we all think differently and I think it's important to listen to each others opinions and beliefs without judgement.
My generation (I'm a bit older than most of you;)) have almost all got natural and lifelong immunity to some of these childhood diseases and there are many benefits to this. The antibodies are passed to our children through breastmilk. Our immunity to Rubella is natural and lifelong making pregnancy safer (obviously not in all cases but for those who contracted Rubella in "the old days". We are unlikely to catch the childhood diseases as adults when they are more severe.
The generation who have been vaxed against the diseases, such as MM&R and haven't contracted the diseases naturally don't have those benefits. Most of them wouldn't even know if the vax had worked, because their titres aren't checked afterward. They have to remember to keep getting boosters to protect themselves and their kids. They can still contract the diseases anyway.....yes, they may be milder but there's a whole other hypothesis to that scenario which I won't bother going into. And, if they can still contract the diseases, they can still pass them on to others....and the fact that they are milder doesn't mean the person they give them to will get a milder dose!
It's all a bit out of control and against some sort of natural order IMO:flowerz:
As for overseas trips.....I backpacked in India a few years back without getting vaxed. I don't plan to take my unvaxed kids there though......maybe when they're older. I would go to the States or Europe without getting them vaxed though, and probably some parts of Asia.
Great post Harriet. I wouldn't go to India unvaxxed! Then again friends of ours went through Asia unvaxxed, both got Maleria and were hospitalised and quite ill for a while, but they were able to have the anti-malerial drugs after they were exposed and they are now ok. My cousin is in the army and they must be vaxxed. When we had his Japanese Encephalitis shot he was sick for weeks. Thanks agian:)
The generation who have been vaxed against the diseases, such as MM&R and haven't contracted the diseases naturally don't have those benefits. Most of them wouldn't even know if the vax had worked, because their titres aren't checked afterward. They have to remember to keep getting boosters to protect themselves and their kids. They can still contract the diseases anyway
Some relevant and established facts about MMR:
1. The first shot induces effective immunity against all three diseases in 95% of recipients.
2. The second improves effective immunity to measles to 99% of recipients. It may do so for the other diseases, but there is no conclusive data.
3. Immunity is believed to be life-long. Certainly, no boosters are required or recommended for those who have received two MMR shots.
4. Only persons who failed to achieve immunity can subsequently contract the disease. They are effectively in the same situation as the unvaccinated. The 19 in 20 persons who have achieved induced immunity are no more likely to contract these diseases than those with natural immunity.
Thanks for clearing that up John:)
I'm certainly no expert on the MMR.....it is one vax I have never even considered. Seem to be quite a few ladies on here who "lose" their immunity to Rubella though and have to get boosted before/during pregnancy.
I'm interested to know how they have established that the vax gives "lifelong" protection from measles? Do they track a group of people and keep testing their titres? Genuinely interested.
When we went into Egypt if you could not prove your vaccine status to certain diseases ( can't remember which ones) using the international vaccine book then you had to have one on the spot or not be allowed in. Glad I was vaccinated as didn't fancy that thanks very much!!!
Some relevant and established facts about MMR:
1. The first shot induces effective immunity against all three diseases in 95% of recipients.
2. The second improves effective immunity to measles to 99% of recipients. It may do so for the other diseases, but there is no conclusive data.
3. Immunity is believed to be life-long. Certainly, no boosters are required or recommended for those who have received two MMR shots.
4. Only persons who failed to achieve immunity can subsequently contract the disease. They are effectively in the same situation as the unvaccinated. The 19 in 20 persons who have achieved induced immunity are no more likely to contract these diseases than those with natural immunity.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Lots of women require the rubella shot before falling pregnant. You can't vax. for the MM seperately but you can vax for R seperately because it is needed. I don't know the actual percentage but off the top off my head I can think of 5 women that were fully vaxxed and needed to get a booster of Rubella before falling pregnant. I don't believe I'd have heard of it so much if 99% of immunised women had the mmr take effect like it is supposed to. Those stats seem way off to me. One of those women was immune when pg with her first, but three years later needed a booster before falling pg with a second. Another one that I know of has had three Rubella vax's in 7 years, plus was fully immunised as a child and still has no rubella immunity.
I can't guarantee my children will get their rubella immunity checked before ttc...I know I sure didn't and I sure as heck don't want them losing their baby for coming in to contact with a mild disease at any other time of their life.
Yes I know this...thankyou. But it still does not give me any confidence with the vax. I discussed it in depth with my gp at the time and am well aware of the amount of cases of rotavirus...but you know what. My DD1 was hospitalised at 6 1/2 months with bronchiolitis, we came home and I bought home rotavirus with us. Dh and I both got it...DD1, who was still fighting off bronchioloitis so already had her immune system compromised was fine.
The OP was asking why people chose not to vax. I expressed why I didn't vaccinate against the rota virus vax. I'm happy and confident with my decision and I did a lot of research first.
I am not trying to start anything and was not referring in anyway to you personally and you choice and I didn't mean it to sound that way...I was just wanting to make sure that if anyone was reading this forum to get information about vaccination that they had the full story on the vaccines, as single statements with out the rest of the information can be misleading.
I am not trying to start anything and was not referring in anyway to you personally and you choice and I didn't mean it to sound that way...I was just wanting to make sure that if anyone was reading this forum to get information about vaccination that they had the full story on the vaccines, as single statements with out the rest of the information can be misleading.
That's fine. However I would certainly hope that anyone contemplating not vaxxing would do their own research. To go off the opinion off a complete stranger on a public forum is very irresponsible....so therefore I don't feel like the disclaimers are really needed.
Anyone that did go off what a random person on a forum said would find themselves stumbling a bit when they were explaining to their GP why they had chosen not to vax. Most of them quiz you on the decision.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Lots of women require the rubella shot before falling pregnant. You can't vax. for the MM seperately but you can vax for R seperately because it is needed. I don't know the actual percentage but off the top off my head I can think of 5 women that were fully vaxxed and needed to get a booster of Rubella before falling pregnant. I don't believe I'd have heard of it so much if 99% of immunised women had the mmr take effect like it is supposed to. Those stats seem way off to me. One of those women was immune when pg with her first, but three years later needed a booster before falling pg with a second. Another one that I know of has had three Rubella vax's in 7 years, plus was fully immunised as a child and still has no rubella immunity.
The information that MMR provides effective and lasting immunity in 95% of persons comes from the CDC "Pink Book" (10th edition), the standard work on vaccine-preventable diseases, which may be downloaded as a pdf here (www2a.cdc.gov/nip/isd/immtoolkit/content/products/pinkbook.pdf). The same figure is quoted in the rubella chapter of Austalian Immunisation Handbook, which may be consulted here (http://www.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/Handbook-rubella). (The 99% figure I quoted was for measles immunity following the second MMR shot, not rubella.)
However, there are several reasons why women intending to become pregnant should still get their immunity checked at this time.
1. Even on current data, 1 in 20 vaccinated women will not have immunity.
2. Prior to 1995 girls were immunised separately for rubella. This was a mistake since it left a much lower level of immunity among their male peers. This is still the case for persons of child-bearing age.
3. Prior to the early '80s, different strains of virus were used that were less immunogenic, so effective immunity is less than 95% for women vaccinated then.
Should current levels of MMR vaccination be maintained, it is likely rubella will be completely eliminated in Australia within 20 years. The process could be hastened by undertaking a catch-up MMR campaign among young adult males. However, given that instances of Congenital Rubella Syndrome have fallen to very low levels (almost all imported), it would seem public health authorities do not consider such a campaign a prudent use of resources.
Note that some women will not seroconvert no matter how many times they are vaccinated. It is particularly important in those cases that sexual partners and other close contacts be fully immunised via MMR.
Thanks for clearing that up John:)I'm interested to know how they have established that the vax gives "lifelong" protection from measles? Do they track a group of people and keep testing their titres? Genuinely interested.
Yes, that's exactly what they do in follow-up studies. Since the current strain was only licensed in the US in1979, no person vaccinated with it has yet lived a full life-time :) However, current data together with an understanding of the biological model makes it highly plausible that lifetime immunity against all three diseases will result for 90% of persons immunised with MMR as children.
You really are a wealth of knowledge JohnC.
ds is 3 and half months and no vax yet,mothers instinct
mum of 3
13-03-2009, 20:45
ds is fully vaxd dd1 hadns had 12 or 18 mth vaxs as we are doing it veeery slowly and dd2 hasnt had any yet ds was a very healthy baby and i felt he was capable of handeling them dd1 and dd2 have food alergies and their immune systems arent the best i dont want to give then anything that i dont feel comfortable with my motherly instincts have worked well so far why stop now
they will be done but not any time soon after soooo much reserch we belt the risks outweighed the benifets we were also advided by our peid that it would be best to wait
I have heard of Paeds recommending delayed vaxxing for children with allergies etc. Sounds fair enough too.
we were also advided by our peid that it would be best to wait
This seems to me the critical point. Since vaccination has generally been so spectacularly successful, people actually encounter more reports of adverse vaccine reaction than they do of disease morbidity. This creates a problem with maintaining confidence in the vaccine system.
The crucial link here is the doctor, who is under an obligation to perform appropriate screening and engage in proper communication with parents before administering any vaccine.
The immunisation schedule is not a stone tablet; it's a guide. And while appropriate for the vast majority, it won't be for others. Sensitive doctors and sensible parents form the foundation of the entire system.
You really are a wealth of knowledge JohnC.
He is! And he's being nice now:D Much appreciated:yes:
bunintheoven12
14-03-2009, 14:36
I researched everywhere i could, the library, the internet, forums. All anti, pro and in between sites.
My instincts told me that it wasn't the right thing to do, so i listened to them. I didn't feel comfortable injecting toxins, poisons, fetal matter, and live virus's into my young babies developing immune system.
I have read information where delaying vax's can have the exact same, if not better effectiveness when they are older.
I don't like the possible side effects from the vaccines. I weighed up my decision by looking at the risks vs benefits. For my child the risks of vaxxing were higher then the benefits.
The chances of my child contracting some of the illness's are very very slim, like diptheria and Polio.
I don't think german measles mumps and chicken pox are that serious.
The mennigcoccal Vax does not cover the real nasty one it only covers strain c.
Measles does worry me, i am currently looking into a seerate vax for that one.
Whooping cough is serious in babies under 12mths, my child is now over that age so even if he did get it the chance of him dying are very slim, although he would probably be very sick.
Up until the last month we did not come into contact with other children or pregnant mothers so it wasn't a risk for us. He started DC about a month ago and i re accessed the situation and i was still confident that not vaxxing was the right thing for my child.
As i said in another post, its not my babies responsibilty to protect the community, i feel its the adults responsibilty to protect the young and vulnerable. An adults body it much more equipped to deal with the toxins that are injected where as a young developing immune system of a babies shouldn't have to cope with it.
I would like to see the adult population be up to date with their vaxxes to help protect the young, we shouldn't be relying on herd immunity of the young but rather the older people.
:iagree:
Here is just one of my reasons for not vaccinating my child. I’m only going to talk about the safety aspect (or lack of) because I can’t be bothered getting into the whole debate. Of course, there are numerous other reasons but for me the safety is the most important.
I think that vaccine adverse reactions are grossly under-reported, especially in Australia. It’s not even compulsory for Doctors here to report vaccine adverse reactions as vaxes aren’t mandatory….plus a lot of Doctors will refuse to even recognise a child with a reaction and assume it’s just a coincidence or that it’s “all in the parents head”. There’s also little, if any, scientific testing to prove an adverse reaction so it’s a pretty hopeless situation all round. Ironically, on the other hand it is compulsory for Doctors to report actual disease cases. I feel that for these reasons, vaccines are made to look safer than they actually are and the old line of “vaccine benefits outweigh the risks” just doesn’t cut it for me.
There also haven’t been any studies done into the accumulative affect of numerous different vaccines given to babies all at once or over a very short period of time. Studies are only done on each individual vaccine at one time. There also aren’t any long term studies on the safety of vaccines.
In the U.S the NVICP – National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program between 1990 and 2004 has paid out over 900 million dollars to the families of children injured and killed by vaccines. I’m not going to even get into discussing the actual ingredients of vaccines as I’d be here all day, so if you want to know what’s in them google it.
Another thing that strikes me as illogical is the “one size fits all” mentality. As a rule, vaccines are recommended for the entire population, regardless of size, age and birthweight. The same dose that is given to a premature newborn with a low birthweight , is also given to a 20 kg child. This to me instantly rings alarm bells.
I’m also angered as to why there has never been a study performed on the overall general health of Vaccinated versus totally unvaccinated children. No explanation has been given as to why, so I can only assume that they are sh!t scared of what the results will be.
With regards to the vaccine Autism link, there has also has never been an official CDC study performed that compares neurological disorders of vaccinated versus completely unvaccinated children. There has only been one independant study done that I’m aware of and the results are startling. (of course, no doubt this study will be discredited by the CDC and others…but my response to that is “DO YOUR OWN STUDY THEN”.) Here’s a link for the results - http://www.generationrescue.org/survey.html (http://www.generationrescue.org/survey.html)
Also, the studies that supposedly say that “Vaccines don’t cause Autism” don’t actually say what the vaccine defenders would like them to say. Here is a good article that explains the studies in laypersons terms - http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/01/cdc-aap-paul-offit-feeding-a-hungry-lie.html (http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/01/cdc-aap-paul-offit-feeding-a-hungry-lie.html)
I also have a family history of adverse reactions. My brother nearly died after receiving a vaccine as a young child and his quality of life and health issues have hindered him ever since.
Until our reporting system changes and there are adequate and sufficient studies done including long term, the true amount of actual vaccine damage occurring in our children will never be recognised, so for that reason (as well as many others), I won’t partake in vaccinating my child.
..
her.
I do have another question for you all....what do you do when there is a known outbreak of something like W.C at say your child's daycare or school? Do they have to stay away for a certain time frame? :laughing:
At my DD's childcare and I'm pretty sure it would be the same for all the others. They check if your child is vaxed and if they're not, they will not let your child attend until it has been cleared. My DD had a rash teother day adn they told me I had to bring in a letter to say that she was no longer contagious.
Wow Miriam. Very interesting. Thanks, you have put a lot of time into your research (and into your post:laughing:).
Missus S
14-03-2009, 22:54
I have heard of Paeds recommending delayed vaxxing for children with allergies etc. Sounds fair enough too.
Yeah my little boy has severe gut allergies which is why we stopped his vacc after the 4 month ones. The risk of him having a severe adverse reaction including neurological damage greatly outweighs the benefit of immunisation at this point in time. My GP was more than happy to organise his CO form for us.
However I did ask his childcare centre the other day if they will inform me of any outbreaks as I know that WC rates have been up significantly this year.................wasn't really impressed with their response which was mostly that 'there'll be a notice on the door' :(
Yeah my little boy has severe gut allergies which is why we stopped his vacc after the 4 month ones. The risk of him having a severe adverse reaction including neurological damage greatly outweighs the benefit of immunisation at this point in time. My GP was more than happy to organise his CO form for us.
However I did ask his childcare centre the other day if they will inform me of any outbreaks as I know that WC rates have been up significantly this year.................wasn't really impressed with their response which was mostly that 'there'll be a notice on the door' :(
Hope you DS is ok. How rude of the childcare worker!
Fuchsia!
15-03-2009, 13:19
I forgot to add too that i don't particulary trust the pharmaceutical companies either ;)
My eldest son had an adverse reaction. So I delayed and unless I see the benefits of vaxxing my children, we will not be vaxxing.
It is about weighing up the risks vs benefits for us.
Surely be different for everyone.
Lillynix
15-03-2009, 15:23
I'm pretty sure I posted my reasons in the old thread that was linked in here, but to say it again...
Basically I don't currently vaxx because i'm not entirely convinced of:
The safety of the vaccines and the effectiveness of the vaccines. I'm also not happy with the ethical side of things. Scare tacticts, things being sensationalised not to mention that we are urged relentlessly to vaccinate our babies yet we as adults aren't being urged to the same extent and I think it far more important, that if you are going to vaxx, vaxx yourself before your children as we are most likely to handle it better etc...
This time (my DD is vaxxed, I did so blindly after not doing any research and I kick myself every day for that) for DS something inside me just sort of 'swtiched on' and told me that I needed to research this first.
I am in no way anti-vaxx, my research continues, but at the moment, I am a non-vaxxer for my children. Perhaps I may come across something later than changes my mind and I will indeed vaccinate DS, but at the moment, it's not going to happen.
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