c/sections around the world - what do you think? [Archive]

~Emmylou~

05-06-2006, 15:04

In Australia, the c/sec rate is between approx 25-30%. This is similar to the states, and the UK is approx 20%.

In the Netherlands, the c/sec rate is approx 11.7%

In Norway and Sweden the c/sec rate is below 10%

Now, get this, in Jamaica, the c/sec rate is 4.1%

and in Mozambique it is 2.7%!!
What is wrong with Aussie women's bodies, that we seem to be more reproductively deformed than the rest of the world?

Ok well this is off the top of my head, pure speculation and I have nothing to back me up.

Jamaica and Mozambique are not developed countries - many women there would not have access to a ceasar, even an emergency one. There would be minimal, if any, elective ceasars as well. So their rate is consequently very low. But if you look at their maternal and fetal outcomes you would find that their death rates are higher, in part because women genuinely needing a ceasar cannot get one and so they or their babies die in childbirth :(

Our rates (and the US) are so high because we have a system here that allows access to elective ceasars for anyone appropriately insured who wants one, and we also have a high rate of intervention from OB's who don't want to be sued.

So to cut a long story short I think those stats only paint part of the picture - there's nothing "wrong" with us per se - there are alot of other issues that aren't addressed by that set of stats.

iamLisa

05-06-2006, 15:08

Hi

In this topic you should also include how many babies and or mothers die from problems during childbirth. I think there is a lot more to this topic.

the_queen

05-06-2006, 15:45

Fair call on the Jamaican and Mozambique stats - but lets talk about Europe then. Why is their c-section rate so low compared to Aus/US/UK? The UK has a high rate of homebirths too, but still a high rate of c-sections. Why? :detective:

SassyMummy

05-06-2006, 16:13

I agree with the Jamaica/Mozambique thing...I wouldn't imagine many women from those countries would have access to c-sections as easily as we do.

As for Europe...

Well, I dunno. Probably just attitude really. From what I figure, a lot of Western World is very into giving caesareans for precautionary measures, not JUST for necessity. IMO, a lot of c-sections aren't NEEDED, but they're given because of the possibility that something MAY go wrong...not because something HAS gone wrong.

Take me for example...I had a c-section because DD was 2 weeks late...I was constantly monitored but there was never any signs of distress in DD...the doctors just said, "Well, it's probably best if we don't leave her in any longer". I don't think I NEEDED a c-section...I think it was just a precautionary measure.

I also think that it's because we can CHOOSE to have one if we want...and lots of people are scared to give birth. Could it also be because we have movies and tv shows only ever suggesting that birth is this painful experience that occurs when you least expect it? I imagine a lot of women want to avoid the pain, as well as avoid the possibility of going into labour whilst out somewhere. A c-section can control your due date...so it's probably easier for those who wish to return to work soon after...??? I dunno.

But yeah, I generally think it's due to attitude towards birth.

zenifa

05-06-2006, 16:54

Hi

In this topic you should also include how many babies and or mothers die from problems during childbirth. I think there is a lot more to this topic.

I have to agree, this is a very complex topic - we also need to add how many women get antenatal care during their pregnancy, as those stats would be lower too in less developed/affluent countries. Also what are the rates of interventions in births, that don't lead to a caesar? How many miscarriages, still births and 2nd, 3rd trimester terminations?

I would also disagree with the original poster's comment - Aussie's women's bodies are not reproductively deformed, there are numerous factors affecting the type of birth a women has (not just personal factors, but also societal ones). JMO

Ana Gram

05-06-2006, 18:03

I really don't agree with the idea that Australian womens bodies are deformed.

I think there is a lot more to it. Plus I still maintain that our childrens heads are getting bigger

misskittyfantastico

05-06-2006, 18:12

You could be on to something there Chelle....my DD has a whopping great noggin.

Mamaduke

05-06-2006, 18:22

Maybe we should look at it another way...

Infant mortality rates:

Netherlands 4.96/1000 live births
Norway 3.67/1000 live births
Sweden 2.76/1000 live births
Jamaica 15.98/1000 live births
Mozambique 129.24/1000 live births

Australia 4.63/1000 live births

It's not all black and white...:no:

By the way...my body is not 'deformed' and I thank God I live in a country which enables my children to enter this world in the safest way possible, and I feel sorry for the mothers in countries who are mourning their babies.

diamonds22

05-06-2006, 18:33

Are you talking about Elective C/sec or Emergency or both? Private or public? as I�m quite certain that the stats would be quite varied from what you has been indicated in your goggle search. (ie private actually has a higher percentage of c/sec�s as they are more accessible if a woman chooses to do so for reasons both health or of a personal choice- this is according to my Obstetrician, whom is a professional and would have current up to date information)

I'm also keen to know why you presume that women that have c/sec are reproductively deformed? I find that statement quite offensive, and as others have suggested there are numerous factors affecting the type of birth women have, your obviously not too informed on these, perhaps you should be more diligent in researching information from varied sources before making such and outrageous statement that has one goggled survey as its main component of factual evidence to base your thesis upon.

Mamaduke

05-06-2006, 19:05

Home births in Australia are deemed to have a higher perinatal death rate than any other comparable births nationally and home births in other countries ... which could beg the question...

What is wrong with Aussie women's bodies, that we seem to be more reproductively deformed than the rest of the world?

taken from...
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/317/7155/384

Bessie

05-06-2006, 19:08

In defence of Becca, I think she was asking a hypothetical question to get us thinking in writing "What is wrong with Aussie women's bodies, that we seem to be more reproductively deformed than the rest of the world?"

Perhaps Mozamique wasn't the greatest example, but the other European countries show both a low rate of CSections and low deaths.
There is nothing wrong with Aussie women's bodies, but there is something wrong with the high rate of CSections. I put this down largely in part to
Fear of litigation in hospitals
Cascade of interventions (increasing possibility of leading to a CSection with each intervention)
Lack of belief in birth as a safe and natural process
Less uptake of active birth positions
Lack of accountability from medical staff for interventions
Poor antenatal education, meaning women aren't sure what decisions to make when the unexpected happens
Epidurals seen as miracle cures for the pain, rather than the key intervention leading to CSections or episiotomies
C Sections perceived as safer and less traumatic than vaginal birth
Hospitals sticking to time protocols or plans (both for labour time and duration of pg) rather than assessing each case as it comes.

I was only thinking of writing two or three points at least, but that list just came to me. :thumbsdown:

Bessie

05-06-2006, 19:14

Home births in Australia are deemed to have a higher perinatal death rate than any other comparable births nationally and home births in other countries ... which could beg the question...

taken from...
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/317/7155/384

Hmmm, the study is 15 to 20 years old and has been critisied extensively for bias (follow the links given after the main body of text).
I think we need some more up to date research, particularly since women are having such bad experiences delivering in hospital and so see home birth as their only option.

Mamaduke

05-06-2006, 19:21

Bessie, the fact that you would put a 'thumbs down' smilie next to your daughter's name in your sig shows alot.
I think the main detractors of c/sections are women who have, for one reason or another, had a c/section themselves and are not happy about it.
If that's the case then that's something each individual must deal with personally, and closure & peace within yourself cannot happen while you point the finger at hospitals, obstetricians, midwives, anaesthetists etc, and call every woman who's had a c/section 'reproductively deformed'.
You may not be happy with the decision that you made...but some of us are.

Mamaduke

05-06-2006, 19:32

I'm assuming you are referring to Sally Tracy's response to the study?
As another medical professional who responded to the study said:

Sally Tracy seeks to criticise a study which was partly funded by Homebirth Australia and which sought data from the very practitioners which she seeks to defend. You can't get much more prospective than that! The fact that the authors had to get data from newsletters and Governments is more an indictment of the practitioners than a deficiency in the study. Furthermore, the decrease in the number of participants in the last two years of the study suggests, to the cycnical observer, that they may have pulled out to save further embarassment or worse still, censure. I am a GP in a four-doctor practice which has conducted some 300 deliveries, over the past 8 years, in co-operation with capable midwives in a small country hospital . We do not electively manage breech, twins or pre-term pregnancies - these are transferred to the care of the nearest obstetrician - and we have a perinatal mortality of zero. Readers may interpret these figures as they see fit.

Bessie

05-06-2006, 19:47

Well, there are quite a lot of us women who have had unwanted and un-needed CSections, I assumed mine was needed for 4 years and was debriefed by an ob. who made it quite clear the whole thing was unnecessary.

I've since had two worrying pregnancies with placenta praveia... if there was no scar there then I would be highly unlikely to have these concerns. I had to fight for my last VBAC and have had to defend every decision I'm making for my 2nd attempted VBAC, as the system I'm encountering is geared up for interventions.

However I'm grateful I didn't have other complications resulting from the CSection.

BTW I haven't called women reproductively deformed... I don't believe we are.
If women choose to have elective CSections then fair enough, but something is wrong with a system which continues to operate unnecessarily on women who don't need it.

To say I'm bitter and pointing the finger is to completely misjudge me. I simply believe that women should be allowed to make informed decisions about their birth choices and belive this is something which is not currently being upheld in our hospital system.

Kaileysmum

05-06-2006, 21:05

If women choose to have elective CSections then fair enough, but something is wrong with a system which continues to operate unnecessarily on women who don't need it.

Can you please tell me what you class as a unnecessary c-section???

(just wondering)

xkwzit

05-06-2006, 21:17

Please let's keep it polite ladies. We know so little about each other that we can't possibly judge anyone. Everyone is going to have different views, it doesn't make anyone "wrong" - just different. And that's a good thing:D

Cheers

cheezelkat

05-06-2006, 21:47

In another forum, someone from the UK posted a newspaper article where the journalist was saying that c-sections were "better" than giving birth vaginally. I'm pretty sure most women who had a c-section, especially an emergency, would not agree with this scare tactic. Some pregnant mums will accept any decision their doctors recommend without fully understanding the risks and consequences of their decision.

We are pretty lucky to have a choice here in Australia that if we do need a c-section, it is available.

Tracie

05-06-2006, 22:35

Something else interesting to note if you look at the figures in these posts is that despite our high c-sec rate here in Australia we STILL have a higher infant mortality rate than Norway or Sweden, which have c-sec rates less than half of ours......so can we really argue that c-sections improve outcomes for our bubbies???

Australia - c/sec rate 25-30%. / infant mortality rate of 4.63/1000
Netherlands - c/sec rate 11.7% / infant mortality rate of 4.96/1000
Norway - c/sec rate below 10% / infant mortality rate of 3.67/1000
Sweden - c/sec rate is below 10% / infant mortality rate of 2.76/1000

Another interesting titbit - apparently, in one of the Scandinavian countries, if women request a c-section without medical indication, they are sent for counselling to deal with issues relating to why they would choose a procedure which puts them at more than 4 times the risk of dying, over what is a normal body function.

Great thread by the way Becca - our terribly high c-sec rate obviously warrants challenging purely because it is so much higher than the WHO guidelines.

I also don't believe that it is about women's bodies being deformed (I know you meant that as a tongue in cheek comment) but perhaps more about us being led to believe that our bodies are not capable of birthing our babies. (And the figures seem to back up that notion).

And quite apart from that it's really important to get some healthy debate happening so we can all learn to understand each other and our differing points of view.

"Just as a woman's heart knows how and when to pump, her lungs to inhale, and her hand to pull back from fire, so she knows when and how to give birth."
Virginia diOrio

jane82

06-06-2006, 00:36

hi there
im from the uk and after reading this thread i went off to find out about ceasarean rates in the uk...(my ds was an emergengy c/s and im booked for an elective in july) the uk national average for 2004 was 21% but in most consultant led units it was as high as 33% with electives making up 13%, in midwife led units it was as low as 3% i cant believe this and im so glad someone pointed it out to make me look into it...

diamonds22

06-06-2006, 06:47

Unfortunately, this thread has really disappointed me, I�m frustrated by the amount of people still disillusioned about c/sec. It appears that there is so much conflicting biased information out there both of old and new stature that seems to distort peoples views & place people into either one of two categories; Pro c-sec or against, which indicates there is a lot more education required.

I understand & sympathise for those whom have had to had an Emergency c/sec (either necessarily or unnecessarily, depending on whose view the Doctors or disappointed patients, (or maybe rightly so for legality purposes, given the type of legal implications these days) that feel robbed/failed of there personal preference of child birth, however, your statement appears to presume that you believe ALL women must be deformed if they have a c/sec, which of course, I find highly insulting. I�m sure you would find it offensive if I made a statement like �People must have mental health problems because they choose to have a traumatic v-birth, even with modern technology so readily available� I may, un menacingly think it at times as a jokingly jester, but I wouldn�t dare be so disrespectful as to make a statement out of it. I wouldn�t have a problem with your thread if you had attempted to segregate for example, emergency c/sec from elective & asked if there was something possible wrong there, as that may indeed be very interesting, but as it stands you haven�t attempted to differentiate the two, in which results in a very rude, insulting statement for those whom elect c/sec�s.

I don�t understand why people still choose to give birth vaginally these days, from my point of view, I don�t understand why women would actively choose to have a traumatic birth experience, stretching and tearing your ligaments/internal organs, however just because it isn�t MY personal preference, doesn�t mean I�m going to be disrespectful to those who choose it, (nor am I going to try and convert people to c/secs) it is there right and I respect that it is a woman�s personal choice to choose how she would like her ideal delivery, that is what is so great about Australia that we are given that choice, (depending on wether you are Private or Public, unfortunately I bet there are a lot more women out there that would have liked to have had a c/sec but arn�t given the option due to c/secs being more expansive and therefore not as accessible in the public system.) There are those that prefer the Traditional Ways and those that embrace Modern Technology and reek the rewards�either way it is a personal choice and is at the woman�s discretion.

On a personal note, I am a 22y/o that weighed a healthy 58kgs at 163cm prior to conceiving, I have had a wonderful pregnancy with no complications thus far (3wks to go & touch wood) I have no health problems that disables me from having a v-birth and yet I am electing to have a c-sec, (do you still presume I have a reproduction problem?) for me it is about embracing your personal expectations of childbirth and being empowered by having the right to choose, I choose to have a comfortable birth experience with my hubby right there besides me, the list goes on as to why I am actively choosing a c-sec, but the fact is I�m not trying to convert people because it not my right and nor do I feel comfortable telling people how they should or shouldn�t give birth, what I am trying to say that a bit of respect towards all types of births wouldn�t go astray, and perhaps after reading this, you may edit your post so as to not be so offensive for those electing c/secs.

Now, I�m off to change my signature to stipulate that I�m proud to have a c/sec because I bloody well am!:smiliedance:

natasha

06-06-2006, 10:24

I am a healthy young fit 22 yr old. I chose to have my dd by electice c section and I will have c sections every time I am pregnant. I believe it is the right thing to do for me.I would like to know what is 'unecessary' about women having surgery to have a c section.

If we want it, isn't it then necessary?:rolleyes:

What's right for one isn't always right for the other. My mum is dissapointed that I didn't experience 'the joy of a natural birth'!!! Um what is so joyful about being stretched and torn to fit something the size of a melon out of something the size of a 5c piece?!!!!! Like I said, it just wasn't for me and I'm sick of people telling me I'm a 'WIMP':eek: Would you like to be cut open through layers and layers of skin/muscle, be awake whilst they are doing it and have to deal with recovering from MAJOR surgery whilst caring for your new born????
I say anyone who has been through a c section will tell you, it's not the wimps way out!!!!
Anyways, that's my 2c worth.:p

Pixie

06-06-2006, 11:00

I never ever wanted a c/section but DD was coming face first, I was left with little choice I laboured for 24 hours pushed for 2 I tried my dam hardest to get her out and had an emergency Caesar at the time, I was angry and felt as if the DR was a junior trying to gain caesar experience and I was a candidate. After much angst and confusion and a meeting with the hospital it was made aware to me the surgeon was not a junior nor a student he had many years experience and my DD was to quote the head of OBS "a huge baby for a tiny girl like me"

I don't think it's a case of "ya lets raise the c/section rate, so much quicker for all" I think it's a case of women being able to have the choice how they birth their children and in my case a medical emergency.

Sweden has one of the best medical systems in the world btw.

I agree with the inclusion on death rates this is a very important factor in this thread/debate!

I must say though I hope I never ever have to have one again! And purely because I nearly lost my life. But should my next baby be "huge" then it will be an Elective.

VBAC for me :fingerscrossed: I hope though!

tickle

06-06-2006, 11:06

Great post Tracie. I agree 100%:D

I am in agreement with Bessie about some of the reasons why the c/section rate is higher. I think caesarians are a great thing. It saved my life that's for sure. But if there is ever a next time for me I will talk to my dr, do my own research, get second opinions and do what is safest for me and my baby.

I really hate the 'us and them' type of feeling that occurs sometimes in child birth discussions. I believe that people a free to make there own decisions. But I also believe that a lot of people aren't aware of the information avaliable out there, I certainly wasn't aware a year ago. I'm just glad we have so many resources at our fingertips to get the information we need to make informed decisions.:)

Tracie

06-06-2006, 11:19

Just to be sure there is no confusion......none of the comments I made in my post were directed at any one individual person......I am a true believer that every woman has the right to choose the sort of birth that they want. I am not pro c-sec nor am I anti c-sec.

My comment about counselling services (I think it is in Norway) was made purely in the context of perhaps giving some explanation as to why their c-section rate is so much lower?

I think it is a great idea - I don't doubt for a minute that there ARE women who choose c-section (without medical indication) because they have a FEAR of vaginal birth....the counselling enables them to work thru those fears and therefore be 100% OK with the decision they finally make (be that to have a VB or a CS). I am sure alot of women go on to have a much better birth experience (either way!!!) simply because they have access to that counselling.

And just because you have counselling regarding a particular issue or fear does not mean you have "mental problems". I never for a minute would suggest that.

So, no, I am not going to edit my post.......there is nothing wrong with healthy debate....I think if you are going to read these posts you need to keep an open mind and remember that no-one is making a comment about you personally. I think anyone who contributes to these threads understands totally that each individual person is different.

We all have the right to read varying opinions, views and information. Ultimately that can be what helps us to make our own decisions.

I wish nothing but wonderful birth experiences for all women, no matter what road they choose.

MamaSage

06-06-2006, 11:32

LittleBoysRock

06-06-2006, 11:36

I had a really rough labour..and narrowly missed a c-section. I was determined to give birth naturally as I was told this was best....maybe not in my case!

I went into labour naturally but was then induced as DS needed to be born quickly so I was given syntocinin. I couldnt move as I needed to be monitored my whole labour so the pain was very intense so I was given an epidural. I had a chest cold and head cold so couldnt breathe properly myself.

I pushed for 3 hours then they tired the vaccumn. When that failed I was cut (episotomy) and they used the forceps. I had a 3rd degree tear and tore internally. The whole labour was not too long, 12.5 hours but I was traumatised by the birth and couldnt look at my son. He was too big for my body 9lb 4oz.

It took me 7 months to be able to have sex comfortably again and to be able to sit on the floor to play with my son.

I will consider having a c-section next time. I believe that due to good nutrition babies are getting bigger and it is more dangerous to give birth naturally in cases where the child is too big for the mothers body.

100 years ago I would have died during labour, the Dr told me that both me and DS are lucky to be here today.

At the end of the day it is a personal choice and not something to be judged. Pregnancy and childbirth is difficult no matter what!

diamonds22

06-06-2006, 11:44

I really hate the 'us and them' type of feeling that occurs sometimes in child birth discussions. I believe that people a free to make there own decisions. But I also believe that a lot of people aren't aware of the information avaliable out there, I certainly wasn't aware a year ago. I'm just glad we have so many resources at our fingertips to get the information we need to make informed decisions.:)

Yes I agree with this statement.

Just also like to add a big thankyou to rynosmum for editing the offending paragraph of Becca's post, I am more then content with the contents now and i am also sure your editing will also meet Becca's satisfaction as well, as you have managed to effectively keep the body of her post. Good job:thumbsup:

Tracie, I don't think there is any reason to edit your post and nor do I think that you were saying I had 'mental probs', my post was directed Beccas original thread, perhaps as you mentioned it may have been a tongue in cheek remark on her behalf, but that has now been rectified by the mods, i'm completely happy. i'm not here to debate, I was upset/offended by what was written, I said my piece and am happy with what I said.

I think you bring valuable information to the thread, perhaps you took my post personally as directed at you, which indeed it wasnt, as mentioned above.:)

natasha

06-06-2006, 12:00

Well said Tracie. :thumbsup:
I think it is a reflection on out Society that women choose unessecary surgery to birth their babies. Two hundred years ago girls and women would have attended births before having their own babes, therefore birthing was not a taboo thing, it was a normal part of life. Women joined and helped other mothers and communities really were communities. Now that the emphasis is on Nuclear Families we have lost the community feeling and there is far less support, emotional, pysical and otherwise. Fear rules many women, as do the Obstetricians who may be giving false advice. It is a shame we live in a patriarchal society where women who may not be as strong as they could be are missing out.

Am i right in assuming you are saying women who have elective c sections are not 'being as strong as they could be'??!!!!:eek:
ANd what are you on about birthing not being a taboo thing? It's not taboo nowadays either!!:confused: And it is part of 'normal life' aswell!! I didn't get a c section because i thought birthing was' taboo' nor did I get one because i wasn't being 'as strong as I could be'!!!!!!:eek:

misskittyfantastico

06-06-2006, 12:05

It's all about choice. I'm glad that in Australia we have the option of c-sections. Personally though, the idea of any kind of surgery scares the cr@p out of me!:D

MamaSage

06-06-2006, 12:12

xkwzit

06-06-2006, 12:12

I believe what Carlia was saying by taboo is that most of us would never have attended or been invited to attend another women's birth before having our own children. So we haven't seen 20 other women give birth before we go through it ourselves, which may well have happened in a more "village" enviroment. It is not part of our normal lives these days to attend the births of other women (at least not part of my normal life :D )

Edited to add - oops too slow...Carlia beat me to it

Cheers

PhAnToM

06-06-2006, 12:19

Well, what is a c-section debate without Lut's 2 cents worth?

I ask the question "what is an elective cesarean?"
I took issue with my hospital records labelling BOTH of my cesareans as "elective".

Well, I "elected" to have a cesarean because my babies were overdue, trying to get their heads through to engaged position. But my pelvis was not wide enough in either case (perhaps this is what makes my body "deformed" :shame: by some definition??).
So My experience of pregnancy was going through a feeling of excruciating pain as my body would be paralysed with electrical current like pain, running through me as my babies tried to get their head through to engage.
Surely if I am overdue and my child still hasn't been able to get through and engage then it is apparent that it will not happen "naturally". :confused:
This then brings up the question- is there any point in me waiting for my child to be distressed and life at risk, just so that I am considered an "emergency" cesearean?

Let's not assume that anyone who has a cesarean before they attempt a vaginal birth, does it because they want to.
I still remember crying in the car on my way home from last check up with my first child, when I was suddenly told to get ready, I would have a cesarean the next morning. Cesarean was never mentioned as an option and I had attended antenatal classes to prepare both myself and DH for a "natural" birth.

natasha

06-06-2006, 12:29

Natasha I do not mean that women are weak who have electives. I mean that our society oppresses women, and if we were living in a matriarchal society women might have the support to not feel the need to have elective C/S's.
And as for birthing being taboo, how many births have you witnessed? It is not the done thing these days for birthing to be a celebration, it is a hospitalised medical issue now. If we could change that, women, and society's attitudes may change for the better.

I see what you mean, but some womens choice to have an elective c section isn't because they feel they have no support! They just want one!
And society's attitude may change for the better how??! Would it be better in your eyes if society thought every woman should have a natural birth and c sections were taboo?????:confused: Why is society's attitude 'bad' right now?? Because women are empowered enough to decide how we want our children to come into this world???

misskittyfantastico

06-06-2006, 12:34

I think I'm finding it difficult to understand why, if you've got all the equipment in working order, why not test it out?
I'm not trying to anger or upset anyone, I'm genuinely curious.

tickle

06-06-2006, 12:41

Why is society's attitude 'bad' right now?? Because women are empowered enough to decide how we want our children to come into this world???
I think the high rate of c/sections is seen as 'bad' due to the many increased risks there are when comparing a c/section to a v/birth. Well that's what I see as a 'bad' thing anyway.:)

natasha

06-06-2006, 13:08

I think the high rate of c/sections is seen as 'bad' due to the many increased risks there are when comparing a c/section to a v/birth. Well that's what I see as a 'bad' thing anyway.:)

I could find you 50 things that could go wrong during child birth if I looked hard enough. Just as I could find 50 things that could go wrong during a c section! There are just as many risks involved in a normal birth as there are in a c section.(In a modern developed country).

Ana Gram

06-06-2006, 13:10

i would like to jump in to the defence of the "evil" OBS who some people thing just want talk women to have c-sections to chalk up their experience. I suffered through 31 hours of labour, most of which with an evil midwife who refused me drugs and pretty much wouldn't let the doctors come anywhere near me as she "knew more about birth than they did". I thnk it is a very common misconception with the "natural" birthing camp that doctors just want to cut you open. Once my evil midwife was out of the way, they tried everything to get my daughter out with c-section being the very last resort. My child and I were stuck in the same position for a very long time which I lay sole blame on the midwife. They ended up having to get her out with forceps with DD in distress and me bleeding to death. Like a large number of women, I and my child would have died in childbirth if it wasn't for modern medicine and the medical intervention options given to us now.

And for the record, I for one am quite happy to not be invited to every womens birth in my town. Yuck, I would much rather watch a horror movie. There is probably less screaming and less blood and gore.

becca74

06-06-2006, 13:14

Well, I have got discussion going on the issue :smiliedance: , as I dont think we think about it as much as we should. Childbirth is the Mount Everest of physiological acheivement, and yet it is never given the awe and respect it deserves....

And yes, my 'deformed' comment (so conveniently edited) was indeed tounge in cheek, as I am a strong believer that women's bodies are not lemons, that we do function, but we have been brainwashed by a mistranslated bible verse (the verse does not say we shall give birth with suffering, it says 'you shall give birth to sons in sorrow'), hundreds of years of female oppression and a media hell-bent on showing birth as a violent drama.

It is not our fault, rome wasnt built in a day, and so too our perceptions about childbirth are not going to be healed over night.

According to WHO, only about 10-15% of women should theoretically have 'issues' giving birth and need a c/sec. This does not suggest deformity, it just matches the fact that the human body,for all sorts of medical reasons, (not just childbirth) does let down a small percentage of the population.

If anyone has read any of my posts about my own situation, I am a stubborn cow who is not going to let 2 c/secs defeat me if I can help it. The only thing that will put me in a c/sec scenario again, is Divine Providence, and I will darn well make sure I do everything, and that my support people do everything to facilitate my environment to one being optimal for me to use all the body parts that my Creator gave me to birth my baby.

I dont blame women for fearing birth and opting for elective c/secs....I mean who can blame you? to use an analogy, if we had been told that having 'intimate relations' was a painful experience for hundreds of years, and were told that something the size of a cucumber can only create huge pain for an opening the size of a 5c piece, then I think we would have the same stats of people opting out of 'intimate relations' as we do have for people who do not have natural births, and those advocating that 'intimate relations' can be experienced in a positive way would be laughed out of town! (I'm not saying childbirth feels like sex:eek: , I am just saying that that 'oriface' is designed to push out a baby, and the size is irrelevant, and is deceptive - I mean, if we look at our anal sphincter, you would never think you could push a number 2 out of it - yet it does, and we dont question it because we have been doing it since before we can remember!)

I guess I am passionately interested in this topic because I've touched the 'holy grail' of birthing experiences. My VBAC was so wonderful that I barely remember any of it, it was that straightforward and easy. I know I am not deformed - so why was I made to think so with the birth that followed it? I just dont buy it, that I am deformed - and with the 70% c/sec rate that was at that hospital, I dont buy into the idea that 70% of the labouring women who walk into that hospital are deformed either. Those stats are offensive to women!!

So, some more questions....

To those who have never birthed and are electing c/secs: What experience with childbirth do you have that has led you to the belief that it is something worth avoiding? Media? Scare stories? Religion?

And to those who have birthed, why do some women have great experiences with birth, and so many others have trauma? What factors do you think contribute to this? (I personally think that it is mostly psycological, through years of brainwashing, though I do believe that there are a few genuine pathological cases where 'suffering' is definately experienced).

I just ask this as I have experienced 3 very different types of birth, and I have my own conclusions as to why they were so different.....

And I am NOT pushing those electing for a c/sec to re-think!! Definately not. Fear plays a huge factor in creating a negative birth experience (and I have been there and experienced that!) So, I do not blame you for your choices, and I applaud you as I believe you are making an empowered choice given the current knowledge you have. You cant expect a rape victim to just 'get over it' and start an intimate relationship with someone, so I wouldnt expect those of us who have been only shown the negative side of childbirth to suddenly decide to go 'au naturelle' (sorry cant spell, especially in french ;) )

But I like the idea of we women thinking about this......:thumbsup:

We are not deformed - we have these wonderful reproductive organs that have functioned for thousands (if not millions - to the atheists out there) of years.

So maybe the question is, is why do 30% of women's bodies let them down? Or do you think that it is women that have been let down by so many years of a cup half empty attitude to birth?

And those who think that our heads and brains are getting bigger - why has evolution let down the female body so that our pelvis's have not adapted to the size of these bigger heads? Does evolution hate women? (again, my questions are to evoke discussion only)

MamaSage

06-06-2006, 13:15

I see what you mean, but some womens choice to have an elective c section isn't because they feel they have no support! They just want one!

But WHY do women want them? ;) If the general attitude changed, women would be happy to give birth vaginally. I'll bet in Sweden and other European countries there are less women who just want cesaereans for the sake of it. Get me?

Mamaduke

06-06-2006, 13:18

I think I'm finding it difficult to understand why, if you've got all the equipment in working order, why not test it out?

My car is in perfect working order with airbags, but I'm still going to put my seatbelt on and not risk 'testing it out'.
After having an emergency c/section, I'm not going to put the life of my baby (or myself) into jeopardy just so I can see if I can do it at another time.

Ana Gram

06-06-2006, 13:26

And to those who have birthed, why do some women have great experiences with birth, and so many others have trauma? What factors do you think contribute to this? (I personally think that it is mostly psycological, through years of brainwashing, though I do believe that there are a few genuine pathological cases where 'suffering' is definately experienced).

I can tell you right now that that statement is going to offend a lot of people. I certainly did not "imagine" the pain, I didn't "imagine" DD head getting stuck. I really resent the implication that I have some how been brainwashed into believing that my childbirth had to be traumatic.

As for evolution, it is impossible for evolution to "hate' anyone. It has no emotion. Evolution is generally trial and error, and one minor change does not make everything else change at the same time. In our modern world, there is no reason for female bodies to evolve to accomadate larger heads, as we have changed the rules on our evolution by changing our surrounding to suit us.

natasha

06-06-2006, 13:29

But WHY do women want them? ;) If the general attitude changed, women would be happy to give birth vaginally. I'll bet in Sweden and other European countries there are less women who just want cesaereans for the sake of it. Get me?
NO, if the general attitude changed, not all women would be happy to give birth naturally. Why would people's attitudes influence my decision to bring my DD into this world via c section. What do you think the 'general attitude' is anyway???:confused:
I bet more women in other countries would have c sections if they were allowed, but women aren't always given the right. I bet in OZ and the likes of the UK, before c sections came about, women were happy to give birth naturally because they knew of no other way. Well now we have another way. So we get to choose. The reasons why we choose c sections over "au naturel' may simply be 'because we want to'!!!!
Not because im petrified of childbirth, or because I have no support, or because because I think vaginal births are this or that.:ecomcity:

I did it because i wanted to, and had the choice. Take that choice away from me and I'd quite happily go through a vaginal birth. As it was, i prefered a c section, just because i felt it was right for me!:rolleyes:

natasha

06-06-2006, 13:30

becca74

06-06-2006, 13:34

I can tell you right now that that statement is going to offend a lot of people. I certainly did not "imagine" the pain, I didn't "imagine" DD head getting stuck. I really resent the implication that I have some how been brainwashed into believing that my childbirth had to be traumatic.

As for evolution, it is impossible for evolution to "hate' anyone. It has no emotion. Evolution is generally trial and error, and one minor change does not make everything else change at the same time. In our modern world, there is no reason for female bodies to evolve to accomadate larger heads, as we have changed the rules on our evolution by changing our surrounding to suit us.

I didnt imagine my pain either! So I dont think I am trying to offend anyone, let me make that extremely clear. In my first birth, I honestly thought I was going to die, I was in so much pain, and in my 3rd birth I developed PTSD because it was so painful.

so why did I birth my 2nd baby so easily, why were the contractions so tolerable (and forgetable?) Why did he slip out in 16 mins after 5 pushes?

I put it down to the different environments I was in. I think judging all births on just one experience is not a good judgment - I know this because I have lived it. Sometimes we pick the rotten apple from the tree. We then have to have faith that the next apple we pick might just end up being a-ok.

becca74

06-06-2006, 13:38

Originally Posted by Mamaduke
My car is in perfect working order with airbags, but I'm still going to put my seatbelt on and not risk 'testing it out'.
After having an emergency c/section, I'm not going to put the life of my baby (or myself) into jeopardy just so I can see if I can do it at another time.

I guess we all have a different definition of the 'seat belt' you talk about. My seat belt is making sure I steer clear of the hospital this time ;)

It is all about choice. Sphincters open in a place of safety, comfort, privacy and respect. I didnt experience these things in my last place of birth. I experienced them with the birth prior to my last one. So, I guess I have defined my 'seat belt' by looking over my past experience.

An empowered birth is where you bring your child into the world in a place of safety, comfort, privacy and respect. If another c/sec provides this for you, then I support you 100% in your decision. Please dont get me wrong. We are all different.

Mamaduke

06-06-2006, 13:41

Sometimes we pick the rotten apple from the tree.
The emergency c/section birth of my first child was filled with elation, excitement, achievement, love and amazement...
Never never never will I liken Jesse's amazing entry into our lives to picking a 'rotten apple'...and to compare the birth of anyone's child to this just plain cruel.

Ana Gram

06-06-2006, 13:41

natasha

06-06-2006, 13:44

becca74

06-06-2006, 13:50

The emergency c/section birth of my first child was filled with elation, excitement, achievement, love and amazement...
Never never never will I liken Jesse's amazing entry into our lives to picking a 'rotten apple'...and to compare the birth of anyone's child to this just plain cruel.

I wonder if you read the post that I wrote directed to you? This was not directed to you, it was merely directed to negative birth experiences in general. If you didnt have one, then this comment, obviously, does not apply to you.

I was talking about the actual *birthing* experience (not the final product, our beautiful bubs). Where have I ever implied that you personally had a rotten birth experience? I had a couple of rotten birth experiences, but that has nothing to do with the children I got thru them. I had experiences (especially my last one) where I was not respected (I was in fact humiliated) by those around me, and as much as I would have like to have a wonderful experience, the hospital was not supportive of this. (I was on a production line). That experience was a rotten apple - that hospital presented me with a rotten apple. My baby had been the only consolation! Maybe you just dont understand because you have been lucky and had wonderful experiences?

PhAnToM

06-06-2006, 13:54

And those who think that our heads and brains are getting bigger - why has evolution let down the female body so that our pelvis's have not adapted to the size of these bigger heads? Does evolution hate women? (again, my questions are to evoke discussion only)

Oh I'm sorry. I must have imagined that while everybody else's baby engages ready for entry to the birth canal at least 3 weeks prior to their due date, my child was still ramming her head trying to get in when she was OVERDUE!!!
I also must have imagine the pain that had me in tears and immobile.:rolleyes:

Silly me for imagining that my smaller stature was unable to get a baby out "naturally".
Perhaps you suggest that since I can't have a birth by your definition of a "natural" birth, I should be sterile to ensure a dud like me doesn't give birth in future??? :mad:

I am EXTREMELY offended at your comments.
Don't pass judgement on those of us who have for one reason or another, had a c/section, unless you were there!

I feel you haven't read all the other posts.
I think this thread has gone beyond a discussion and into an attack on people who have had cesareans.

Shame really! :thumbsdown:

becca74

06-06-2006, 13:58

I don't think I am making a bad judgement of not wanting to go through another birth like that and not wanting another child because of it. I know every birth is different. But I know that if I was to loose my marbles (which would be the only way i would consent to having another child), I would be looking at making sure access to a c-section was given a lot earlier and that midwies came nowhere near me.

I think a lot of women use each birth as a learning experience and there are quite a lot of us with learn negative things about it.

I honestly dont blame you chellegoth, please believe me! It's like the rape victim analogy. Some women feel raped by the birth experience......I know I did during my 3rd experience.....(you may or may not define your experience as 'rape'.....I dont know you, this is just how I felt).

I am just unique because I am one stubborn cow, and have this internal quest to find answers ;) .... my current quest being finding answers to my birthing experiences.....that is just me

Maybe had all 3 been a nightmare, I would feel the same as you.....I just have that 'holy grail' experience between the 2 nightmares.....it just fuels me onward...

becca74

06-06-2006, 14:03

Oh I'm sorry. I must have imagined that while everybody else's baby engages ready for entry to the birth canal at least 3 weeks prior to their due date, my child was still ramming her head trying to get in when she was OVERDUE!!!
I also must have imagine the pain that had me in tears and immobile.:rolleyes:

Silly me for imagining that my smaller stature was unable to get a baby out "naturally".
Perhaps you suggest that since I can't have a birth by your definition of a "natural" birth, I should be sterile to ensure a dud like me doesn't give birth in future??? :mad:

I am EXTREMELY offended at your comments.
Don't pass judgement on those of us who have for one reason or another, had a c/section, unless you were there!

I feel you haven't read all the other posts.
I think this thread has gone beyond a discussion and into an attack on people who have had cesareans.

Shame really! :thumbsdown:

I dont think you are reading all the posts either. If you had read in my post to Chellegoth, you would see that I had 2 births which were highly traumatic. I thought I was going to die - and in my previous birth, I thought I had died and was experiencing hell (PTSD flashbacks and all, have been seeing a psycologist for this). I know that the pain is not imagined......believe you me, I know.

But why did I have such an easy birth with my 2nd? Why??

This eternally bugs me. It is an itch in my brain that I just cannot appease....why why why?

Having had 2 c/secs, I dont know how this is a thread to attack women who have had c/secs.

I am merely on a quest of understanding. I have a huge why in my head about this topic. I just want answers, thats all. This is why I put up those stats.

Please people, dont try to dig for offensiveness where there is absolutely none.

PhAnToM

06-06-2006, 14:11

Perhaps because each baby is different and each birth is different.
Now I don't know about your physical build, but I am a small person.
I have a small stature.
But DS was born 3.91kg, head circ of 37cm and 54cm in length. Not sure the "best reproductive woman wouldn't struggle to get those measurements out... let alone a petite woman.

YET, my body was so perfect for reproduction, that despite having to give birth via c/section, I gave birth to 2 beautiful HEALTHY thriving children. (this is not to say that anyone who have had bubs that have struggled with their health in anyway were due to the mother being inadequate at all.)
My point is that if my body was letting me down because it was inappropriately made for childbirth, then surely my children wouldn't have come out so healthy either.

Blessed Mum

06-06-2006, 14:15

Both of my children I have had naturally. However with my DD the call was put out to get an epidural in & fast & I was off for a c/sect. This was my ultimate fear when just b4 the epidural was to be put in BAM away went a few contractions that I care not to remember the intensity of & 2 pushes she was out. I have also been advised by my ob that when/if we go for #3 an elective c/sect will be right up there due to problems with the placenta.

So as I said I fear the thought of a c/sect, I fear needles, i fear surgery of any kind but I will do whatever is right for me & the baby I'm carrying. Every pregnancy & birthing experience is different. What we all individually deem good or bad isn't necessarily the case for the person next to us or comes along after us.

Women & I mean all women have the right to choose what is best for them. We possibly can't judge nor should we want to. :)

MariaO

06-06-2006, 14:17

I think statistics can be very misleading. I would also like to see the relative ages of the birthing mothers as well as c section and infant mortality rates.

I think for a lot of people, myself included, the birthing process is about the end result - a beautiful baby. Not all people have the longing for the empowering experience of a natural childbirth. I do also believe, that having had one emergency C section, a lot of people, again myself included, would not trust their bodies to birth 'au naturel' as Natasha would say.

Always interesting to hear all the viewpoints ladies.

Supermum

06-06-2006, 14:58

I've been reading this thread with much interest. If anything is going to evoke such robust debate it's going to be one of two things VB/CS or FF/BF.

I have read all of the posts including Becca's two times over and did not find her posts offensive.

She has clearly listed statistics relating to problems with childbirth, and honestly concedes that not everyone is going to be able to birth vaginally.

She, unlike most of us, has been on both sides of the fence - CS and VB. Obstetric lead care and MW evidenced-based care. So, she's experienced and has perspective.

There is only one reason why I chose vaginal birth. It's the very reason I have a vagina. And, like Becca, I believe my body is not a lemon. If, for whatever reason, my body did not work the way it should and either my baby or myself were in danger, then obviously I would opt for a CS. The problem I think these days however, is that 'danger' can be anything from a prolonged labour (over 12 hours according to most Obs), stuck heads, big babies or 'overdue' ... like babies actually have a clock in there and when the timer pings they know it's time to come out. Just like we are all unique, so is the growth process for babies inutero. Sometimes the alert should be sounded and therefore require CS ... and sometimes it shouldn't. Just because someone has a small frame, doesn't mean they can't deliver a big baby. My neighbour of many years was 4ft 10 and naturally delivered 4 incredibly large girls .... started at just under 9lb and worked it's way up past 10.7lb. The body generally doesn't grow what it can't expel ... generally ladies - not always.

I don't think Becca was trying to make light of anyone's pain (birth IS painful), experiences or choices.

Personally, I am terrified of major surgery and would not electively choose that path but certainly if there were evidence-based medical complications, then I would obviously have no hesitation.

misskittyfantastico

06-06-2006, 15:01

My car is in perfect working order with airbags, but I'm still going to put my seatbelt on and not risk 'testing it out'.
After having an emergency c/section, I'm not going to put the life of my baby (or myself) into jeopardy just so I can see if I can do it at another time.

I kind of meant with a first pregnancy. Not VBACS. My query was more directed at people who had an/or are having an elective c-section with their first child.

Ana Gram

06-06-2006, 15:03

I honestly dont blame you chellegoth, please believe me! It's like the rape victim analogy. Some women feel raped by the birth experience......I know I did during my 3rd experience.....(you may or may not define your experience as 'rape'.....I dont know you, this is just how I felt).

I am just unique because I am one stubborn cow, and have this internal quest to find answers ;) .... my current quest being finding answers to my birthing experiences.....that is just me

Maybe had all 3 been a nightmare, I would feel the same as you.....I just have that 'holy grail' experience between the 2 nightmares.....it just fuels me onward...

Wll see, I have had both a birth experience and a rape experience and I can tell you that they were completely different. I would rather have another 10 traumatic births than be raped again.

I understand why you want answers to YOUR birth experience but the questions you are asking don't reflect that. I don't think you will find the answers you are looking for by looking at what other women do and the percentage of c- sections compared to other nations. I really fail to see the correlation.

Ana Gram

06-06-2006, 15:08

The problem I think these days however, is that 'danger' can be anything from a prolonged labour (over 12 hours according to most Obs), stuck heads, big babies or 'overdue' ... like babies actually have a clock in there and when the timer pings they know it's time to come out.

Things like long labour, mine being 31 hours and stuck heads (for much of that 31 hours) can be "dangerous", which is why they tend to err on the side of caution. It really doesn't take much or a lot of time for things to go drastically wrong in childbirth.

Supermum

06-06-2006, 15:12

I think the word 'rape' can be used in a number of instances Chelle. I too have been raped and also felt a form of birth 'rape' in my first labour. The definition of rape is not just sexual, it can also mean violent assault or plunder, forcible interference. My obstetrician was a relative stranger, he did things to me when I clearly told him not to, and I felt violated and assaulted by him. So I see that 'rape' in relation to a traumatic birth experience imposed by others is a justifiable word.

Supermum

06-06-2006, 15:14

Things like long labour, mine being 31 hours and stuck heads (for much of that 31 hours) can be "dangerous", which is why they tend to err on the side of caution. It really doesn't take much or a lot of time for things to go drastically wrong in childbirth.
And placed in the same situation Chelle I would have opted for a CS .. in fact, I don't think I would have lasted that long.

Kaileysmum

06-06-2006, 17:05

Id just like to say if we didn't have c/sections, there would be a lot more baby's and mothers who die in child birth. Isn't the whole point about having a healthy, safe baby. I think it really doesn't matter either way, which way a baby's born.

I had a emergency c-section after 36 hours of labour, 3 hours pushing. My baby was stuck. As she never engaged before labour, when I pushed it only got her to the engaged position and she couldn't fit any further. I was told after that my OB should have gave me a elective c-section. But my OB was old school and believed nature should take its course. I'm glad I experienced labour, but obviously in my case nature, didn't do its course.

I just think there is always a reason why people have c-sections, whether personal or medical, and in the end if we didn't want the c-section, we wouldn't sign the form allowing it.

If the baby's healthy then I'm happy either way VB/CS!!!

becca74

06-06-2006, 21:07

Wll see, I have had both a birth experience and a rape experience and I can tell you that they were completely different. I would rather have another 10 traumatic births than be raped again.

I understand why you want answers to YOUR birth experience but the questions you are asking don't reflect that. I don't think you will find the answers you are looking for by looking at what other women do and the percentage of c- sections compared to other nations. I really fail to see the correlation.

Well, you see, I think they do relate to my experience.

I have experienced 3 different birth cultures. Each different birth culture effected my birthing outcomes. I was gob-smacked by the Australian birth culture when I got here, I couldnt believe the negative attitude to women's bodies and birthing abilities. The UK has just that little bit more faith in women's bodies, and lo and behold, a lower c/sec rate. The Dutch have an amazing faith in women's bodies, and the stats reflect that also (you can get a homebirth on their national health service!).

Now come on.....a 70% c/sec rate in alot of hospitals around this country (including the one I experienced ) is scandalous - I cant see how anyone can dispute this fact. It is offensive. It makes me :barf: On the night I had my son extracted from my body by the knOB, 3 other women had emergency c/secs. Only 2 that night had a vb. I dont know how many had elected (or been coerced into) a c/sec earlier that day. so that night, that hospital decided, (and this was a normal night for them, I was told) 2 in 3 of the women that walked through it's doors were uncapable of a vb. No faith in women. They believed that the majority of women walking into their labour ward lived in bodies that were lemons.

Now, the Jamaican birth culture. No, they dont have high infant mortality rates that are directly connected to the births. I had Jamaican midwives at my 2nd birth. Their birth culture and faith in the female body is superior to the Australian birth culture. They facilitiated an extremely easy birth for me, they totally expected me to give birth vaginally, they left me alone to labour and never broke my 'zone'.....it was a miracle on my birthing journey, as up till that birth I honestly thought all labour for all women was just probably a nightmare for everyone. I had never conciously planned for my birth to unfold like that (didnt even pick up a childbirth book till before my 3rd baby!), but it did because the environment was perfect. That is what gets to me. I didnt have to fight to make it happen. I didnt have to negotiate for a particular experience. It just happened because that's 'just the way it was'. Why did I have to start fighting for my options the minute I got pregnant in Australia??

You can imagine my shock when I come to Australia, and despite my previous good birth experience, I still get a knOB who doesnt have faith in my ability to birth, and without ever having met me, let alone examined me, told me I was going to have a c/sec. I had no choice, he had planned all along to take to me with his knife. That whole hospital was bl**dy useless!

I will never go back to an Aussie hospital for a birth, just to be 'safe'. I will only go in a genuine emergency. It shocks me the contrast between my 3 experiences. That is why I question stats, as they reflect something interesting that cant be ignored.

It saddens me that so many people are offended by me, and what I want to do with my next birth. They take my choices that I am making for me alone as a personal attack on them. Am I offended? Well I probably should be, as I have never once stated that I dont support any of the choices that these other women are making, yet over and over I am being portrayed as a fool and some raving feminist loony for desiring to birth the way I want to. (I am a sahm married to a domineering banker.....I am the last person you would call a feminist!).

But it is women like myself, who do have faith in our bodies ability to birth naturally, who suffer because of this. We dont get options. C/secs are free on medicare. Homebirth is not. It's not fair, and it is not based on any research - just a perpetuated myth from religion, a world previously dominated by males who wanted to create an image of women as sub-human and incapable of functioning as they are created, and currently a media which likes to portray birth only as a violent drama (be honest, anything else wouldnt bring them the high ratings, would it? When is the last time you've seen a good natural birth portrayed in the media - like, never! audiences want blood and gore.....)

Just like the SAHM vs working mum issue, I think rather than get at each others throats about this, we should stand up for each others choices. I fully support peoples choices to elect a c/sec, or to hate or fear the birth process because of a bad experience with it (I havent walked a mile in your shoes - who am I to judge?).....so why cant the courtesy be turned around and support go to the huge amount of women like myself who want to choose vb, homebirth, vbac, joyous natural birth?? Only a few decades ago women were considered insane for wanting to enjoy s*x.....only decades ago did the majority of women believe that org@$ms were not possible for the females species! It is only because s*x is so much fun that these myths got broken down quicker. Childbirth myths are going to take a bit longer to be defused, as it is hard work.....

WHO recommends a c/sec rate of 10-15%. Why is Australia failing this? Many women have an instinct that their c/sec was unnecessary. I think these stats reflect this....I am sure that while that there are a genuine 10-15% here feel that their c/secs were justified, and this is most likely the truth, there are the other genuine 10-15% who have the strangest feeling that their c/sec was not justified in any way. It is that final 10-15% of women, who recieve unnecessary c/secs, that need everyone's support...not to be told that they are mad, insane, and should just shut up about it and move on and be thankful for a healthy baby.

These stats show that Australia certainly has to fix up the system.....

Ana Gram

06-06-2006, 21:48

Here lies the problem, the questions you have asked and the way you have phrased them are causing the offence. Not the stats and percentages of birth around the globe.

You have refered to women being somehow deformed because they a c-sections, women have been brainwashedand that traumatic births are psychological as a result of brainwashing. These are all quite offensive statements.

I believe that wee are free to make our own choices about giving birth. If you don't like the attitude or the treatment you are receiving - go to another doctor, hospital, midwife, doula or whatever you want to use. Remember they can't give you a c-section if you don't sign the form, so if you really don't want one- don't sign anything.

Mummabear

07-06-2006, 00:14

Oh bugger it - I'll chuck in my 2c worth too.....

I think there are waaaaaay too many women out there that are too hung up on what they get out of the birthing experience. Bringing a child into this world (IMO) is exactly about that - bringing them into this world, not what you're going to get out of it. Back it up a little ladies - yay for us, we carried them for 9 months, etc - but we don't own their birth - the enjoyment we (hopefully) get out of their arrival is a great spin off for us, but it's not about us - it's about getting them here safely.

I personally feel (once again, just my opinion) that those of you that are getting so hung up on the birthing process are just being selfish to be blunt. Concentrating too much on what you want, the kind of experience you dreamed of, the feelings you wanted to experience, etc. Your baby is alive, it's well, and despite what some of the activists on this and other sites will tell you, I'm 100% sure that being born via CS or VB doesn't dictate the kind of person you will become so in the end does it really matter to that little bundle of joy in your arms how they got here.

I get so sad and mad when I hear of women totally consumed by their 'awful' birthing experience - they're wasting all that energy on basically feeling sorry for themselves because they didn't get what they wanted - that's energy that should be going to that beautiful baby that needs it.

News flash - I didn't get the birth that I had planned for. Nowhere near it. But I loved every second of it because at the end I got my DS. Now, second time around I'm not really planning anything for the birth, I'll just take it all as it comes, as I realise that it has nothing to do with me and everything to do with getting this little bundle of miracle here safe and sound.

Mamaduke

07-06-2006, 00:16

:yelclap: Mummabear...yes yes yes yes yes yes!!!!!:yelclap:

MrsMiggins

07-06-2006, 00:23

Ok well this is off the top of my head, pure speculation and I have nothing to back me up.

Jamaica and Mozambique are not developed countries - many women there would not have access to a ceasar, even an emergency one. There would be minimal, if any, elective ceasars as well. So their rate is consequently very low. But if you look at their maternal and fetal outcomes you would find that their death rates are higher, in part because women genuinely needing a ceasar cannot get one and so they or their babies die in childbirth

This was my first thought too, Emmylou.

I for one, am very grateful for the medical intervention I had. With one major & one minor complication (the major one would not have been detectable without the aid of modern medicine), both mine and my baby's lives would have been in serious danger. Were it not for the great efforts of my Doctors, both me & my baby may very well not be here today.

My Drs did everything within their power to make it so I could have a safe vaginal delivery, but when it became apparent that this was not going to happen, my c/s was booked in.

MrsMiggins

07-06-2006, 00:34

Just to add to my previous post, I also think that there is a lot wrong with both the medical community & those who push them to be the way they are.

In a lot of cases, c/s rates are high because Dr's & hospitals are afraid of being sued, should something go wrong.

I had to sign a waiver when I needed to delay my c/s for a week longer than the OB would have liked (my DH was away interstate) acknowledging that I had been explained the situation, that I was acting against medical advice and that should anything happen the hospital & Drs were not liable.

I also found it very confusing as I did desperately want to have a vaginal delivery if at all possible, but it had been forced down my throat so often that Drs will all try to get you to have a c/s even when it's not necessary, that I was wary. In the end, it was obvious to all that it was indeed necessary, but before this became apparent & we were still considering the options, I was very confused.

tickle

07-06-2006, 08:08

I don't think that people who have problems dealing with their 'awful' birthing experiences are just feeling sorry for themselves. Some people suffer greatly, become depressed and develop PTSD. I know of women who have been completely humiliated and disrespected in a way that I will never know. Peoples feelings are just that, feelings.

I will admit I have a problem with my last birth, not because it wasn't the experience that I wanted (I didn't want a c/section, but the safest option is the best option). I have a problem with it because I came very, very close to dying.

Anyway getting off track here. I agree with you MrsMiggins about the doctors being liable. I guess they feel that there is a risk there and it is worth covering themselves for it?

Seekrit

07-06-2006, 08:29

We were talking about c-sects last night at Antenatal Class and I was told that the hospie I'm going to (Royal Bris - Public) has a relatively low section rate, whereas private hospitals tend to be higher.
The midwife didn't go into much more on that, she said she had to be careful what she said when we questioned why, but yeah, I thought that was interesting and relevent to here!

alicesmum

07-06-2006, 08:38

becca74
i just wanted to let you know that i wholeheartedly argree with and support everything you have said in this thread, and i think you have been objective and reasonable in all you have said. the fact that the dutchies and brits (and the kiwis too i think) have lower cs rates, i think, reflects a difference in our own and the medical establishment's attitudes and deeply ingrained feelings about women's bodies. how else can these stats be explained?

also, go supermum. ;)

while i think the c/s is a fabulous rescue operation and the greatest birth-related medical technology ever invented (for its life-saving ability, as others have pointed out), it is def over-used in this country and to say that women "have a choice" about whether to have one is not quite true because most people (understandably) accept the advice of the 'medical experts' advising them to "sign here". i know a couple of women who later felt "bullied" into having one. anyway....

becca74, hearing about experiences like yours is the reason i have chosen MW-based care both times rather than seeing a knOB :p

rach :)
[due any day now to have a birth-centre birth. can't wait!!!! :smiliedance: ]

rynosmum

07-06-2006, 08:51

I think it's important to remember that it is an individual thing.

Individual for the birthing mother AND for the OB or midwife.

I went into labour with a posterior baby who could not engage. Many friends suggested I would have a C/S but my OB was determined to support my desire for a VB. Sure I needed intervention and at one point when the baby's heartrate was dropping (we found later that the cord was around his neck twice:eek: ) I begged for a C/S to ensure the safety of my baby but he calmly and confidently guided me through a tough but effective birth.

My sister has had 2 emergency C/S's where she started haemorraging at home, she could have died without C/S. I have friends who have had C/S's due to breech bubs or complicated labours - C/S was a much safer option IMO.

I do have a couple of friends who have opted for elective C/S after trouble-free pregnancies. Whilst I respect their choices without a doubt, I personally don't 'understand' their choice. A VB is natural, a C/S is major surgery. I was up and around straight after my VB where other ladies were bed-bound for the most part for the first couple of days. I went home with the stresses of a new baby and learning to breastfeed but my body wasn't in pain. Even after a tough birth, my body recovered quickly. I don't think I would be strong enough to elect a C/S in an otherwise healthy pregnancy. Just my opinion.

I think we absolutely have the need for C/S's but I don't understand why OB's would recommend them for seemingly straight-forward births.

BJelly

07-06-2006, 09:26

While it is great to have the ability to have a C section in case of an emergency to protect mother and/or baby, it is a sad thing that in too many cases it is used to protect doctors from litigation instead, or because it falls within the Dr's comfort zone.

The thing is that part of what Dr's are supposed to do when treating patients is to do no harm. Performing an unnecessary C section which many OB's say precludes later VB's violates that imperative. Having an unnecessary operation is a huge stressor, and may have a negative effect on bonding and our ability to look after a newborn especially in a culture where so many of us are without social supports because we don't live near family - but these Dr's don't have to deal with that issue so it is off the radar for them.

I saw an OB/Gyn before I got pregnant to check on my fertility. While I was there he gave me an internal examination and said I had an asymetrical pelvis that would most likely mean I would be unable to have a VB unless I had a very small baby. Well I didn't go back to this knOB and I'm glad I didn't. Throughout my pregnancy no one ever said I had a "bad" pelvis, and guess what, I had a 7 hour labour with a 3.6kg baby and needed no intervention what so ever. Yes this is only my anecdotal experience, but I think it speaks volumes when we see the high number of C sections that are conducted in the private health system.

I went through the public system, and I found the whole system dehumanising and minimised what a major, awe inspiring and lifechanging experience pregnancy and birthing is. There is very little done to make birthing suites more homey and friendly - they are cold and clinical and very alienating - no wonder the act of going to hospital can stop the birthing process in it's tracks.

At the end of the day the Australian health system is about protecting itself first and mothers and babies second. If this wasn't the case, more would be done to keep birthing suites in rural areas, but instead they are being closed down, and because of this more and more rural women are giving birth by the side of the road in the middle of nowhere - but then there is no hospital to blame (read sue) if the system fails them, and that is the main thing apparently.

Sorry for the rant, but in Qld where I live there have been many reviews of the maternity system over the last few decades and very little has been done to make the changes that have been repeatedly recommended that are actually women/family centred. The Dr's and the beaurocracy are much more powerful and the type of maternity care we recieve is witness to that fact.

Tracie

07-06-2006, 14:01

WOW...disappear for a couple of days to attend a birth and look what happens.

This is a great thread - wonderful views and thoughts and debate......:thumbsup:

Your baby is alive, it's well, and despite what some of the activists on this and other sites will tell you, I'm 100% sure that being born via CS or VB doesn't dictate the kind of person you will become so in the end does it really matter to that little bundle of joy in your arms how they got here.

I don't actually recall any of the posters to this thread telling anyone that the way their baby is born dicates the sort of person they become???

I personally am a strong believer that birth is much more than just bringing a baby into this world. Childbirth is a "rite of passage" and the sort of experience you have can have a BIG effect on your life - be that a positive or a negative one.

If you exclude the mother from the equation and assume that her experience is not important, then you are essentially just treating her like a vessel, purely there to carry that baby and then get it out safely.

(This is probably part of the problem with the current system - the mum is treated
like a baby incubator and her experience is totally disregarded or treated as unimportant)

A birth experience is something that some women carry with them for a long time -even dementia patients have been known to remember nothing else but the birth of their children. It is a powerful event and should be acknowledged as such.

And I don't think that women who suffer from Birth Trauma are being selfish - they are simply trying to make sense of what happened in their particular situation. Often times in the face of knowledge that they were coerced into accepting "routine" procedures or interventions which then led to a less than positive experience. It is alot to deal with and each woman needs differing amounts of help and time to work things out.

Just on the topic of not so great birth experiences.......I think one of the keys to avoiding a negative experience is to really spend time preparing for your birth - research all the scenarios and be prepared in case they happen to you. If you are flexible, and put yourself in a position where any decision made is ultimately yours (info, info, info) then you are far more likely to have a positive experience, regardless of what happens - ie VB with or without intervention or CS. (Don't get me wrong - sometimes even the best prepared and informed women still have a negative experience - but preparation will surely up your odds)

I really subscribe to the idea that pregnant women should prepare for the birth of their babies in the same way that marathon runners prepare for a race - Mentally, Emotionally, Physically, Spiritually....... for eg. Yoga, Exercise, Optimal Foetal Positioning, Eating Well, Affirmations, Pain Coping Techniques, Questions To Ask if a procedure is suggested, Gaining Knowledge about alternatives to medical intervention etc etc.

Childbirth is something that takes all of your physical and mental strength and if you turn up on the day to just "go with the flow", then (depending on your expectations of course) your chances of being unhappy with the outcome are much higher.

Disclaimer:- I understand that the whole "birth experience" thing is not as important to some women as others and I think it's wonderful that some mums can walk out of the labour ward (so to speak!) happy with whatever happened.:thumbsup:

But it isn't that way for everyone - for some women the "birth experience" is something they have waited a lifetime for and if things don't go the way they hoped, then they need our love and support to help them work thru things.:hugs:

Raving on again...sorry!

But, bugger it (this is becoming a habit) - here are some more quotes - they are some of my faves and these women are so much more eloquent than I am in summing things up! ......

"There is no single, ideal birth. There is instead the birth you have, the experience that is uniquely yours. With the support of friends that are sensitive to your needs, quick to respond to your wishes, who are emotionally nurturing, and who above all believe in you and your ability to give birth, childbirth can be an adventure in physical sensation and intense emotion, a journey of discovery of your own inner power that is exhilarating, sensuous and satisfying" Sheila Kitzinger

"Women are still as nervous and unsure of themselves as ever, and they still need to learn to trust their bodies. Helping women approach birth without fear is still the mission of childbirth education. Birthing is much more than eliminating pain. It is one of life's peak experiences" Elizabeth Bing (co-founder of Lamaze International)

"Birth is not only about making babies. Birth is about making mothers - strong, competent, capable mothers who trust themselves and know their inner strength." Barbara Katz-Rothman

becca74

07-06-2006, 15:22

Thanks to all the lovely ladies who know where I'm coming from.....and Tracie, I love the quotes, they explain really well my perspective also!

This thread has just turned into a 'lets bash the women who want to avoid c/secs' session.

I dont feel many women have actually read all my posts properly, as I have been accused of things which I already explained myself about pages ago (eg, the deformed issue, which was totally tounge in cheek, as I actually think that very few of us have dysfunctional bodies that cant give birth, it is just we have been lied to that we do).

The stats imply that alot of women have dysfunctional bodies. The WHO recommends stats alot lower. This is the point I am making.

I am being victimised by the Australian birth culture which is trying to tell me I am deformed and cant birth my babies. I believe that is a total crock! The stats of a 30% c/sec rate are offensive, and it is the stats that imply women are deformed - not me! I am disputing this idea that 30% of women are incapable of vb. 10-15% may be legitimately incapable for whatever unfortunate reason.....but 30% is just offensive!

So, now I have repeated myself for the nth time, i still believe there are going to be the element of women here who will not even read this post of mine properly, and will find some way to be offended, because, to be honest.....I think you want to be offended by me, as my choices touch a raw nerve in alot of women here, causing you to question issues that you would rather sweep under the carpert and not have to deal with.

Now, I have a birth due within the month. To me (I'm sorry to those who see the event as irrelevant in a womans life) this is a sacred and awe-inspiring event which needs careful preparation. We spend so much time preparing and celebrating marriage, funerals etc, and I believe birth deserves the same pomp and grandeur.

My little one is making one hell of a journey soon. I need to make sure his entry to the world is the best it can possibly be. I am doing all I can to facilitate a respectful and sacred environment for his entry to this world. If this offends you, then keep it to yourself.

I dont need negative imput from women who wish to disrespect this sacred rite of passage for my little one. A hospital disrespected this rite of passage for me last time, and I will d@mn well make sure they dont ever disrespect it again!

I think I need a break from this negative environment! :banghead: