Did you circ because of your own sexual preferences [Archive]

JohnC

28-02-2009, 17:21

delirium

28-02-2009, 17:25

That's a convenient argument John. So basically even if it shows we don't, we're lying anyway?

Please don't presume to know what people's agendas are, and to question members honesty.

This is a pro circ section. If you don't wish to read our views or see the results, you are more than free to not open the thread again :D

JohnC

28-02-2009, 17:39

Delirium, I'm not questioning anyone's honesty and I am actually interested in the responses. The point I was making was an elementary issue about how such polling works. Let's assume good faith on everyone's part until proved otherwise.

OneBabyBoy

28-02-2009, 17:46

Well firstly IMO sex is much better with an uncircumsized penis, so unsure why anyone would circ for sexual reasons.
But then again, I'm anti-circ for any non medical reason.

girly

28-02-2009, 17:49

Jeepers! I haven't ever heard that one before :eek: Call me naive but I honestly don't believe people would really do it for that reason. I find the suggestion a little on the "ew" side actually.

Don't be so shocked LOL people do...

girly

28-02-2009, 17:53

Delirium,

If you ask mothers directly if they circumcised their son because it accorded with their own sexual tastes, they will of course deny it because ... well, it just sounds weird. But that doesn't mean it ain't so.

I will nonetheless be interested to see what emerges out of this line of inquiry :rolleyes:

Umm sorry mate I don't think so. Bubhub aint really what it seems..LOL these girls tell the truth...You have been on Bubhub for ages..You should know that LOl...

Even if the mothers didnt think it looked better if her husband did she would say so...

Anyways..I think a circ penis looks a litle better I just dont like the extra skin. Ive told you this before...DH thinks the same thing...BUT thaT's NOT why we would circ....

Phyllis Stein

28-02-2009, 17:54

No, I'm talking about our sexual preferences, or sexual taste as was phased in a current circ thread. I see it as different to aesthetics

Caring about the aesthetics of your son's sexual organ seemed to me to be inherently about one's own sexual preferences, but fair enough if you disagree. :)

JohnC

28-02-2009, 18:15

LOL these girls tell the truth
Indeed, but that's not the issue. There are many well-known cases (eg the Bradley effect) where people honestly kid themselves about their motivations and send polls right out.

Anyhow, the view you have expressed here

I think a circ penis looks a litle better I just dont like the extra skin. Ive told you this before...DH thinks the same thing
is I suspect extremely common, though we are unlikely to see this reflected in this poll, given its design.

In the end what needs to explained is the statistical fact that the main predictor of whether a boy in Australia is circumcised is the circumcision status of the father.

delirium

28-02-2009, 18:36

Caring about the aesthetics of your son's sexual organ seemed to me to be inherently about one's own sexual preferences, but fair enough if you disagree. :)

I see your point. I think they are often linked but aren't the same.

Indeed, but that's not the issue. There are many well-known cases (eg the Bradley effect) where people honestly kid themselves about their motivations and send polls right out.

Surely that could be said for any poll on BH or any forum for that matter? Does that make the polls in the anti circ section not valid as they would also be subject to the Bradley effect? :detective:

Anyhow, the view you have expressed here

is I suspect extremely common, though we are unlikely to see this reflected in this poll, given its design.

No is was your view too actually ;) I was just wondering how true it is. If it is extremely uncommon, then why even bother mentioning it in the other thread?? How would you like the design of the poll to be?

In the end what needs to explained is the statistical fact that the main predictor of whether a boy in Australia is circumcised is the circumcision status of the father.

I agree that there is definately a link bn father being circed and sons too. But another poll that is current here, says a lot of men that are circed DON'T go on to circ their sons.

I don't think anything needs to be 'explained', anymore than women that have c/s, or bottle fed or use disposables need to explain.

Again, this poll is for those that have circed, not for those that don't circ to come in and pick at the validity of the thread.

JimJamsMum

28-02-2009, 19:00

I voted no and it's not because I'm in denial or can't admit otherwise. I have never actually seen an adult un-circed penis so I've no idea if I prefer one over the other. And the fact I've never seen an un-circed penis is not why we got DS done either.

JohnC

28-02-2009, 19:16

I agree that there is definately a link bn father being circed and sons too. But another poll that is current here, says a lot of men that are circed DON'T go on to circ their sons.
Of course, otherwise RIC would not have declined so radically. But it is still the case that a boy whose father is circumcised is four times more likely to be circed than the son of an intact man. What's more, some simple statistical modelling shows that this striking imbalance will likely increase as the number of intact fathers inevitably grows over the next decade. (Data on this goes back to the 1960s, when European migrants were the first to decline having this procedure performed on their babies.)

So what does it mean? Well, at a minimum it implies a parental decision to circumcise is primarily conditioned
by personal circumstance rather than objective criteria. I am not saying that this is invalid (which would be inappropriate in this sub-forum :D), but simply drawing the obvious conclusion as a basis for further discussion.

delirium

28-02-2009, 19:16

Anyhow, the view you have expressed here

is I suspect extremely common, though we are unlikely to see this reflected in this poll, given its design.

.

Oops, I realised that I misread you, and that you said it was extremely common.

Can you back up this claim with statistical or anecdotal evidence?

Well, at a minimum it implies a parental decision to circumcise is primarily conditioned
by personal circumstance rather than objective criteria. I am not saying that this is invalid (which would be inappropriate in this sub-forum :D), but simply drawing the obvious conclusion as a basis for further discussion.

Personal circumstance rather than objective criteria? Who are you to make that judgement? You say you are not saying it's invalid but you are. Wow there are some huge generalisations and value judgements here. You clearly know very little about why we have circumcised, and you seem to be back tracking.

JohnC

28-02-2009, 20:21

Personal circumstance rather than objective criteria? Who are you to make that judgement? You say you are not saying it's invalid but you are. Wow there are some huge generalisations and value judgements here.

Well, it would seem that way if you chop off the reasoning that led to the conclusion, as you did in your quote from me. I'll try again.

If boys whose fathers have been circumcised are much more likely (4x in fact) to be circumcised than the sons of intact fathers (a point you yourself conceded earlier), then you don't need Logic 101 to conclude it is "personal circumstances rather than objective criteria" that is propelling the decision.

The question then becomes: What is that personal circumstance? Now in noting that Shiraa had straightforwardly expressed a sexual preference for a cut penis, I said this "is I suspect extremely common" (emphasis added) among those who circumcise their sons. And my initially voicing this suspicision in the other thread apparently provoked the genesis of this one.

To be clear, there is no good data here. But one can find ample anecdotal support, including on these boards going back over many years. And presumably you constructed the poll precisely to prove this suspicision wrong, which I take to mean that you at least agree with the premises that led to it (whether you choose to admit it or not); otherwise, why bother?

Which brings us back to my initial contribution to this thread: namely that I do not believe the existing poll question will reveal anything, although I am hopeful there may be some interesting comments.

~Candy~

28-02-2009, 20:29

I agree that there is definately a link bn father being circed and sons too. But another poll that is current here, says a lot of men that are circed DON'T go on to circ their sons.

I think a lot of men don't have a say over the mother's of the baby's unfortunatley...hence why their son's are not circed.(secretely I think the dads would prefer their sons to be like them).

Anyway...I didn't answer the poll as it's not my whole reason...but it sure is partly "our" reason.
I find uncirced YUK...but hey, I'm not going to be having sex with my son :barf: so I think that reason isn't a valid one for me.

~Candy~

28-02-2009, 20:32

umm...this IS the PRO-circ section right???
:rolleyes:

delirium

28-02-2009, 20:36

Now in noting that Shiraa had straightforwardly expressed a sexual preference for a cut penis, I said this "is I suspect extremely common" (emphasis added) among those who circumcise their sons.

Shiraa also said that whilst she has a sexual preference for a circed penis, that it would NOT be the reason she circed.

You are making a connection between the 2 that may not exist.

And presumably you constructed the poll precisely to prove this suspicision wrong, which I take to mean that you at least agree with the premises that led to it (whether you choose to admit it or not); otherwise, why bother?

I started the poll bc I feel that it is untrue, but thought I would see what others said. I certainly don't agree with your premise, and I find it offensive that you continue to say that we are in denial, or refuse to admit the truth.

Why bother? Bc I'm so tired of people making statements and unfounded, baseless comments that we would circ bc of our own sexual preferences, amongst other things. Most of my friends circed bc of infection, lower rates of HIV etc, not bc of your disturbing rationale.

JohnC

28-02-2009, 20:50

Most of my friends circed bc of infection, lower rates of HIV etc, not bc of your disturbing rationale.

Well, those would be the "objective criteria" we were talking about. But if that were the case we would expect that the circ status of the father would make no difference.

You see the problem?

One would be left in the situation of arguing that having a circumcised partner somehow makes one care more about, or understand better, the dangers of "infection", "HIV".

That can't be right, can it?

delirium

28-02-2009, 21:11

I have 2 family members whose partners are uncirced, and they circed their kids. So circed father doesn't always = circed child.

One would be left in the situation of arguing that having a circumcised partner somehow makes one care more about, or understand better, the dangers of "infection", "HIV".

That can't be right, can it?

I genuinely don't understand your point here. I'm not saying those that circ care more about AIDS, but they choose (in their opinion of course) to decrease the chances of transmission. Whether or not people believe it actually does reduce risk is a moot point - it is still why many people do it.

Is this what you mean? Sorry I'm tired.

Look you have a right to believe whatever you want on the subject. But I feel it unfair to first make comments that are rather vulgar about those that circ, then when a poll is put up in the pro circ section you debunk it as being untrue bc "If you ask mothers directly if they circumcised their son because it accorded with their own sexual tastes, they will of course deny it because ... well, it just sounds weird. But that doesn't mean it ain't so."

Debate is completely encouraged in the Discuss It section. Around 30% of BH members circ yet they are too scared to even post in their own section bc it is constantly invaded by anti circers.

Please have respect for the pro circ section and allow us our space as you expect in your section. :shakehands:

GraceUnhearing

28-02-2009, 21:15

GraceUnhearing

28-02-2009, 21:16

So circed father doesn't always = circed child.

no it doesnt
my boys dad is done
and i think the reason 'to look like dad' is just stupid
what girl grows up wanting to 'look like mum'
its crazy!

sam's mum

28-02-2009, 21:18

Just to remind people that this is the pro-circ section. If people want to debate this issue, please do so in the debate section.

If anyone is concerned or has issues with a post that someone else has made, please use the report function and let a mod sort it out.

thank you

JohnC

28-02-2009, 21:49

The point I'm making is that the strong correlation between the circ status of fathers and sons is logically incompatible with asserting that the decision is primarily made on criteria such as health prophylaxis or other evidence-based issues. It's like saying that while there is a strong correlation between being born and raised in Saudi Arabia and being Muslim, nonetheless Muslims there have chosen their religion on the basis of objective assessment of the "best religion".

That is not to say that either decision is invalid (that's a discussion I would have elsewhere), merely that they are personally contingent rather than based on some objective evidence.

Please have respect for the pro circ section and allow us our space as you expect in your section. :shakehands:
I expect interesting discussion in all sections. The rule, as I understand it, is that this is not an area to discuss the pro's and con's (especially the con's) of circ. The rule is not that only pro-circ people may contribute here.

A discussion of why mothers opt to circumcise seems to be entirely appropriate to this section, which is why I'm sure you started the thread. Many of us are genuinely interested in this perplexing question.

circangel

01-03-2009, 00:56

No we did not.

delirium

01-03-2009, 08:00

I get what you are saying John. You are carefully saying that in fact the infection and STD reason is a load of balony bc of the rate of fathers that are done, and in fact it is really about us having some sick sexual attraction to circ penis' that we then force on our boys and are too embarrassed to admit.... right? Or is that "just some anti circ fanatics matra" and not yours? :confused:

A discussion of why mothers opt to circumcise seems to be entirely appropriate to this section, which is why I'm sure you started the thread. Many of us are genuinely interested in this perplexing question.

Again, that is what the Discuss It section is for. Start a thread there and I would be more than willing to discuss it with you. This thread, again, is asking for feedback from those that have circed. I don't know how much nicer I can ask you.

meme

01-03-2009, 09:02

well i have girls and so i obviously haven't circed but hypothetically i know that part of the influence over my decision would be personal preference, so i would think that personal preference would be part of most peoples decision making process.

not because you want to have sex with your son eww but because you want to model your children into your idea of the *best* people they can be, and surely aesthetically you do what you can to that end too. no pun intended:o

however, as i am not a fan of a circ'd penis, i don't have the worry that imposing my veiw of what is most pleasing in a penis on my sons would matter all that much if they later disagreed, as they could always choose later to lop a bit off if it worried them. the other way around might be a bit trickier though.

then again, it's all hypothetical for me.:rolleyes:

i do think it is interesting to have discussion and to try and understnd why people make the choices they make, because i think understanding can help acceptance of everyones differences.

JohnC

01-03-2009, 10:12

Delirium,

Discussion of the validity or otherwise of the "infection" argument is not appropriate here. I posted on that issue in the Discuss It section this morning, so feel free to join that debate there.

The topic here is what role a woman's sexual tastes, obviously influenced by the circ status of her partner, plays in the decision to circumcise. You think not at all; others are not so sure.

My own contribution has been to note that the strong correllation between a father's circ status and infant circumcision both requires an explanation and points strongly to the personal and subjective factors in the decision.

I have yet to read a rational rebuttal of this line of argument.

And I strongly reject the notion that only those who have circumcised their sons are permitted to post in this forum. That's not what the rules say.

NibbleCurlynBub

01-03-2009, 10:14

I've said it before.

No. Never.

Why would I, I CERTAINLY don't intent on ever having sex with my son and if he finds a partner who prefers circumcised or intact, he can act accordingly to what HIS preference would be.

delirium

02-03-2009, 08:29

Please. I have repeatedly asked you nicely to stay on topic, I have expressed the fact that it is fine we disagree, and I have nicely asked you about 10 times to start another thread in the discuss it section rather than overtake the pro circ section.

Mods, can this thread be closed now. I don't see any more than fighting coming from leaving it open.