CC going the way of smacking

[GeorgiaAnne]

I was chatting with my mum the other day about how I was brought up ie: smacked as a child and left to cry as a baby - thanks mum :rolleyes::D and how I would never use these techniques with my children. It got me to thinking though that smacking is now not socially acceptable and illegal (I think?) perhaps when more research is done on CC the same will happen. The physiological and psychological effects are quite sad and I personally find the idea of CC quite distressing and would prefer to be woken up 5 times a night than do it. Maybe (hopefully) when my children are having babies it wont be the done thing anymore.

[Fuchsia!]

I agree, i hope so too

[2forme]

as much as sometimes we wont completely agree with another mothers choices who are we to judge CC when it is proven to work for some people?

im in no way saying it is right or wrong.. what i am saying is who are we to tell any mother whats right or wrong for her child?

[GeorgiaAnne]

Well I believe it's wrong. It's not judging other women, it's just what I genuinely in my heart believe. My point is that there is a fair bit of research that suggests CC is bad for children so I was pondering when that may translate to change in what is recommended/legislated. Also, that's why I posted this in the NCS section rather than pro CC :)

[MimiGrace]

While i think, and kinda hope you might be right.

I know a few children that needed to 'cry it out' to get to sleep, despite their parents being seriously opposed to it.

My litter brother is one of them. My mums a breastfeeding, clothbumming, co-sleeping kinda woman (well, she was when she had kids 20 years ago :p), but my brother has relatively mild aspergers, and he hates human contact.
So he had to be left to cry because her prescense just made it worse.

So i kinda think that the legislation would have to take those things into account.

Plus, there are huge differences in the different controlled crying/cry it out methods. For instance there's controlled comforting as well. Which some people think belongs under the cry it out banner, but which is (imo) less damaging to the child.

[Fuchsia!]

as much as sometimes we wont completely agree with another mothers choices who are we to judge CC when it is proven to work for some people?

im in no way saying it is right or wrong.. what i am saying is who are we to tell any mother whats right or wrong for her child?

A mother may think its ok to burn her child with a cigerette to teach him a lesson, does that mean we don't say anything because the mother is doing what she thinks is right?

Extreme scenario there but its the same logic.

Studies have been proven that CC can harm the baby and believe it to be 100% correct.

But in saying that for me its all about risks vs benefits. For example if a mother is so badly stressed that its a high chance that she will harm the baby, like shake him/her, and all other gentler methods have been tried first, then yes i agree that the mother should use CC.

[Leisa21]

I think there are too many varying circumstances for it ever to be illegal.

[2forme]

A mother may think its ok to burn her child with a cigerette to teach him a lesson, does that mean we don't say anything because the mother is doing what she thinks is right?

Extreme scenario there but its the same logic.

Studies have been proven that CC can harm the baby and believe it to be 100% correct.

.


ok first of all burning a child and letting a child cry are 2 completely different things.. i cant help but nearly laugh at this kind of similarity as its so drastic...

i dont think crying and being burned even come close do you? and as a child of abuse i can tell you now id rather cry than be hurt...

secondly... see the part that says CAN ( i highlighted it) ... well it can not also..

sorry not to try and argue the point... but to me this kind of disagreement goes in the same as Breast Vs Bottle , CC Vs not... Co-sleeping Vs not...etc etc....

my point was just because you dont agree doesnt mean its 100 % wrong... maybe wrong for YOUR child.. but not everyones..

[OJandMe]

Having spent the last 5 months being woken every 45 mins by a baby who can't self settle....

I have to say, that even though I am fully against CC... I do not want to be woken up 5-7 times a night.

I can't function. I'm getting depressed, I'm suffering, my other kids are suffering and my marriage is suffering.

I have in desperation called the CHN and got some tips from a friend who's just come back from the Ellen Barron Centre, and now.. even though he 'grizzles' when I put him down... he is sleeping much better.

There is a biiiiig difference between babies being left to cry in a room by themselves, and babies being responded to according to their grizzles, cries.. but not being 'no cry' at sleep time.

I think any kind of 'settling' technique that includes 'instructions' on how to respond when the child gets so upset they throw up (don't make a big fuss, change the child as silently and emotionless as possible, avoid whole bed changes if you can, just place a baby blanket over the section of mattress which is damp and continue settling from the time interval you are up to) is just plain wrong.

[UmmInayah]

ok first of all burning a child and letting a child cry are 2 completely different things.. i cant help but nearly laugh at this kind of similarity as its so drastic...

i dont think crying and being burned even come close do you? and as a child of abuse i can tell you now id rather cry than be hurt...

secondly... see the part that says CAN ( i highlighted it) ... well it can not also..

sorry not to try and argue the point... but to me this kind of disagreement goes in the same as Breast Vs Bottle , CC Vs not... Co-sleeping Vs not...etc etc....

my point was just because you dont agree doesnt mean its 100 % wrong... maybe wrong for YOUR child.. but not everyones..

Granted we don't know for sure if this is the case.. But I think causing mental harm to ANY child, regardless if *I* am doing it, or the woman across the road, it IS 100% wrong, IMO.

[Fuchsia!]

ok first of all burning a child and letting a child cry are 2 completely different things.. i cant help but nearly laugh at this kind of similarity as its so drastic...

i dont think crying and being burned even come close do you? and as a child of abuse i can tell you now id rather cry than be hurt...

secondly... see the part that says CAN ( i highlighted it) ... well it can not also..

sorry not to try and argue the point... but to
+ me this kind of disagreement goes in the same as Breast Vs Bottle , CC Vs not... Co-sleeping Vs not...etc etc....

my point was just because you dont agree doesnt mean its 100 % wrong... maybe wrong for YOUR child.. but not everyones..

Sorry but i disagree. Its exactly the same, just because its not physical abuse doesn't mean it cannot harm the child. So who deems what is the "right" thing? Where do you draw the line?

Whatever happened to "it takes a village to raise a child?"


secondly... see the part that says CAN ( i highlighted it) ... well it can not also..
It may not, by why take that risk?

I stand by what i say, its not right for my child and i believe its not right for any child unless in extreme cases.

[stellarella]

Leaving a child to cry is psychological abuse and considering the well researched affect that this particular form of psychological abuse has on babies physically (increase in cortisone levels and stress and tales of babies vomitting and choking out of utter exhaustion, laying in their own vomit etc.), I would also call it physical abuse.

[joolz79]

I think there are too many varying circumstances for it ever to be illegal.

I totally agree.

I do hope that some of these methods become socially unacceptable but there would be too much of a grey area for them to become illegal. For example if a mother was truly at the end of her rope and feared she would shake the baby so left baby to cry instead could you really charge her for that?

[2forme]

maybe i have it a bit wrong :o


i would never ever ever leave a baby to cry til they vomit.. never... yes i agree that is abuse...

[GeorgiaAnne]

maybe i have it a bit wrong :o


i would never ever ever leave a baby to cry til they vomit.. never... yes i agree that is abuse...

That is what is recommended by many 'baby trainers' - their suggestion when baby vomits is to clean it up and avoid eye contact!!! This is Robin Barker, one of Australia's most read baby authors.

[wild at heart]

Having spent the last 5 months being woken every 45 mins by a baby who can't self settle....

I have to say, that even though I am fully against CC... I do not want to be woken up 5-7 times a night.

I can't function. I'm getting depressed, I'm suffering, my other kids are suffering and my marriage is suffering.

this is the thing...

for a child who is in a loving family home where the parents have tried everything to help their child/ baby sleep, perhaps sometimes other methods are needed to help the baby sleep.
I know this section is no-cry sleep solutions, byut I guess for some babies, they will cry regardless of what their parents try to help them to sleep, and I guess for SOME parents, this can take an emotional toll, which imo does impact on the parents ability to cope and parent the unsettled child as well as the other children. In this situation one must take into account the potential for harm to be caused by the children in the family home due to parental conflict or parents inability to cope and function.

There are lots of ways that children can be harmed. I know there is documentation about the possible impacts of controlled crying on children, but there are so many different scenarios that need to be considered with determining whether it is illegal. It whether other emotional harm was occurring to the children, the way the parent parents the child in other areas of the child's life. Emotional harm is unfortunately quite difficult to prove in a legal setting, unless there is expert evidence which would imply that it is the use of controlled crying on it's own had a demonstable impact on the child's wellbeing and ability to function. It is hard enough to prove emotional harm when there are clear disclosures from children, so I am thinking that it would need to be a pretty strong case for someone to be prosecuted for ccing their child.

[Benji]

Who is going to put their hand up to look after my son while I sleep then? :laughing:

My kid seriously never slept as a newborn, and it was driving me batty. I packed my bags and wanted to get the hell outta there.

He still doesn't sleep now at very close to 3 years of age.

Please, please come and take him at night so I don't offend you :)

[GeorgiaAnne]

If he's still not sleeping at age 3 I would say that perhaps CC isn't working then? :) but no thanks, i've got my own 2 who like to wake me up.

[Benji]

If he's still not sleeping at age 3 I would say that perhaps CC isn't working then? :) but no thanks, i've got my own 2 who like to wake me up.

I don't CC.

I just don't pass judgement on others who do.

As of tomorrow night, I will be "controlled crying" because I'm absolutely fed up!

[misskittyfantastico]

Who is going to put their hand up to look after my son while I sleep then? :laughing:

My kid seriously never slept as a newborn, and it was driving me batty. I packed my bags and wanted to get the hell outta there.

He still doesn't sleep now at very close to 3 years of age.

Please, please come and take him at night so I don't offend you :)

DD is the same - has always fought sleep. I tried everything with her including blerchy baby trainers and CC:o:( I was so tired, so freakin' tired - she's three and still doesn't sleep terribly well, although I'm doing the FAILSAFE diet atm and things are improving.

DS is one and hasn't ever slept through - TBH I think that I'd rather co-sleep (ie the kids starfish in the middle and DH and perch precariously on the edges) and boob to sleep, and rock and pat and whatever else than CC.

You CCing your child doesn't offend me:)

[Benji]

DD is the same - has always fought sleep. I tried everything with her including blerchy baby trainers and CC:o:( I was so tired, so freakin' tired - she's three and still doesn't sleep terribly well, although I'm doing the FAILSAFE diet atm and things are improving.

DS is one and hasn't ever slept through - TBH I think that I'd rather co-sleep (ie the kids starfish in the middle and DH and perch precariously on the edges) and boob to sleep, and rock and pat and whatever else than CC.

You CCing your child doesn't offend me:)

Oh good, thanks :)

Well I did "controlled comforting" when he was around 13 months [I think, his whole life is a bit of a blurr to me] and it worked for quite a long time. But he got back into old habits.

He went from a tired, grumpy baby, to a happy cheery baby. The difference was amazing.

He sleeps with me now, and it's absolutely awful for the both of us. Neither of us get any sleep.

I've also tried the failsafe diet, have all the books etc but it's difficult with him staying at his dad's house weekly because his father doesn't try to help me out with these sort of strategies which often sets me right back to the beginning weekly :crying:

Tomorrow night I'm locking the door because I want sleep! Just a few hours straight. And I want my happy boy back. Not my clumsy, tired, grumpy one that I have now :(

[misskittyfantastico]

Oh good, thanks :)

I've also tried the failsafe diet, have all the books etc but it's difficult with him staying at his dad's house weekly because his father doesn't try to help me out with these sort of strategies which often sets me right back to the beginning weekly :crying:


Oh, that's bl00dy hard:hugs: I hope you and your boy get some :sleeping: tonight.

[MimiGrace]

Tomorrow night I'm locking the door because I want sleep! Just a few hours straight. And I want my happy boy back. Not my clumsy, tired, grumpy one that I have now :(
Tomorrow night he will be at his dads!!! :hugs: and i'll stay offline so you to bed early so you get a few hours sleep!!!:p :hugs:

[Benji]

Oh, that's bl00dy hard:hugs: I hope you and your boy get some :sleeping: tonight.

Thanks :) he slept at a friend's house last night for a little sleepover and all 3 under 3 slept all night :confused: very odd.. it's just here that he seems to sleep so badly. He loves winding me up haha.

I've got my fingers crossed that he sleeps tonight, so far so good!


Tomorrow night he will be at his dads!!! :hugs: and i'll stay offline so you to bed early so you get a few hours sleep!!!

Hehe I'm so looking forward to it! Although Monday nights are often the worst ARGGH!

At least that will give me 2 nights within one week of good sleep :D I feel great today compared to most days!

[missie_mack]

I think that taking it to the extreme like Robyn Barker encourages is just plain wrong and horrific :geek:

I really do believe that its not a one size fits all situation and that we need to be considerate of that. I hate someone else telling me I should be control crying my child probably just as much as the mother who hasn't had sleep and is trying it to be told she shouldn't. Its a catch 22.

I do believe that crying for extended periods of time or extreme emotion distress can and does cause longterm problems with children who later grow into adults too, especially those with a genetic disposition for depression, bipolar etc etc . But at the sametime I do think that for some children in milder forms it suits like 'controlled comforting' or letting them grizzle a little sometimes and for this reason I would hate to see it illegalised- even though its not what we practice with our child.

[FiveInTheBed]

I was chatting with my mum the other day about how I was brought up ie: smacked as a child and left to cry as a baby - thanks mum :rolleyes::D and how I would never use these techniques with my children. It got me to thinking though that smacking is now not socially acceptable and illegal (I think?) perhaps when more research is done on CC the same will happen. The physiological and psychological effects are quite sad and I personally find the idea of CC quite distressing and would prefer to be woken up 5 times a night than do it. Maybe (hopefully) when my children are having babies it wont be the done thing anymore.


I can see it becoming less 'socially accepted'...same as smacking, but I doubt it will ever become illegal.
Would be 'nice' if they both just 'didn't happen'.:goodvibes:


I think there are too many varying circumstances for it ever to be illegal.

This is why I doubt it will ever be illegal.



Leaving a child to cry is psychological abuse and considering the well researched affect that this particular form of psychological abuse has on babies physically (increase in cortisone levels and stress and tales of babies vomitting and choking out of utter exhaustion, laying in their own vomit etc.), I would also call it physical abuse.

When I hear "controlled crying" ..this is what I think of. :(
I admit I have had to leave my bubs to cry/whinge a little..I had three under 19 months..and it just wasn't 'possible' for me to be attending to everyones needs 100% ALL of the time. - although I tried...I never would've thought I could hold two newborns and a 19month old at the same time, but some how I did it!!
And there were those days when I had to pop them in the cot...walk out the back..stride at fast pace up to the back fence to clear my head..and then start all over again with unfrazzled brain.
I wouldn't call that 'controlled crying'..but I was leaving them to cry for a moment..and I would hate to be arrested or charged over that.



Who is going to put their hand up to look after my son while I sleep then?

He still doesn't sleep now at very close to 3 years of age.


:wave:..I'm 6 hours away..but if you feel like a holiday, he can run wild with the kids and sleep on the big mattress on the floor with them that we bring out at 3am!!! We are up any way - one more wouldn't even make a dent!!
...while you relax in a motel room for a weekend:goodvibes:

[Benji]

:wave:..I'm 6 hours away..but if you feel like a holiday, he can run wild with the kids and sleep on the big mattress on the floor with them that we bring out at 3am!!! We are up any way - one more wouldn't even make a dent!!
...while you relax in a motel room for a weekend:goodvibes:

Hehe he would so love that - he loves sleepovers!!

But I think after tomorrow night (you know, after the physical and emotional abuse I put him through) we will both be sleeping like "babies" :sleeping: :laughing:

[FiveInTheBed]

Hehe he would so love that - he loves sleepovers!!

But I think after tomorrow night (you know, after the physical and emotional abuse I put him through) we will both be sleeping like "babies" :sleeping: :laughing:

...who even came up with that saying :confused:

I hope you both can get some rest...a grizzly irritable little one isn't fun at all.:hugs:

[Benji]

...who even came up with that saying :confused:

I hope you both can get some rest...a grizzly irritable little one isn't fun at all.:hugs:

HAHAAHH I'd love to know. My bet is somebody who hasn't had a baby, or someone who had one of those miracle babes who slept well.

Thanks hun :hugs: I hope so too for both our sake. He slept well last night at his little friend's house, but he's still grumpy and clumsy today. Very odd.. it's almost like even one good sleep doesn't help. I think he needs more consistent good sleeps :yes:

[2littlemonkeys]

hi all
firstly i dont know why its call controlled crying if it was controlled there wouldn't be any crying i think there is a difference between letting them cry to teach them how to settle themselfes to sleep and letting them cry for hours at a time
each child is different and some people just get lucky and there kids are great sleepers and never need to cry them self to sleep but for some its not that easy , feel like i am contradicting myself here but sometimes its ok to let them cry it is acctually good for there lungs as long as its not too long hope this is making sense to everyoe that i am getting my point across but it is late so sorry if its not lol
good luck :-)

[stellarella]

Firstly - crying is not good for their lungs. Sorry, but that wives tale is utter rubbish.

Secondly I do agree that there are different degrees of controlled crying...from letting them "grizzle" for 5 mins to leaving them to scream hysterically for 4 hours straight (along with the vomitting etc.) There is also a difference between controlled crying a baby and controlled crying a 3 year old.

Thirdly - just because some people are strongly opposed to controlled crying, doesn't mean they have "good" sleepers. It simply means they have found ways to cope which don't include withdrawing comfort from their child. Withdrawing comfort is psychological abuse.

I have a 2 1/2 year old who has never slept through and who up until 1 year ago would wake approx. 6 times a night to BF. My daughter is 6 months old and wakes once a night, she is also going through an extremely unsettled period where it can take up to 2 hours to get her to sleep. I am no stranger to hard work and sleepless nights.

Having said that, I am thankful that I manage (just) to cope and I certainly don't consider myself in any way superior to mothers who find it hard to cope. In fact I want to help mothers find ways to cope which don't involve damaging their children in the short or long term.

Society has a lot to answer for and tragically mothers and babies are the victims of a culture where we expect babies to stick to unrealistic sleeping patterns, and the pressure to get our kids into those patterns is huge.

[Phyllis Stein]

Firstly - crying is not good for their lungs. Sorry, but that wives tale is utter rubbish.

Secondly I do agree that there are different degrees of controlled crying...from letting them "grizzle" for 5 mins to leaving them to scream hysterically for 4 hours straight (along with the vomitting etc.) There is also a difference between controlled crying a baby and controlled crying a 3 year old.

Thirdly - just because some people are strongly opposed to controlled crying, doesn't mean they have "good" sleepers. It simply means they have found ways to cope which don't include withdrawing comfort from their child. Withdrawing comfort is psychological abuse.

I have a 2 1/2 year old who has never slept through and who up until 1 year ago would wake approx. 6 times a night to BF. My daughter is 6 months old and wakes once a night, she is also going through an extremely unsettled period where it can take up to 2 hours to get her to sleep. I am no stranger to hard work and sleepless nights.

Having said that, I am thankful that I manage (just) to cope and I certainly don't consider myself in any way superior to mothers who find it hard to cope. In fact I want to help mothers find ways to cope which don't involve damaging their children in the short or long term.

Society has a lot to answer for and tragically mothers and babies are the victims of a culture where we expect babies to stick to unrealistic sleeping patterns, and the pressure to get our kids into those patterns is huge.

Just so and :iagree: etc etc.

[GeorgiaAnne]

Thanks Ella for that, you have said it so much more eloquently than I would have but I agree totally. Both of my children wake a bit, some nights a lot. I have just decided I will be tired for a few years :)

I am not being judgemental towards other mothers to be anti-cc - I did not write "I think mothers who do cc are ....."

Once again, this is the NCSS section not the pro-cc. All I am hoping is that it becomes socially unacceptable and other options are presented to mothers, especially by ECHN and the like. If your baby doesn't sleep then you get referred to one of those CC places and nothing else is suggested. I think that is sad.

[2littlemonkeys]

that is your opinion i believe crying is good for them , yes hysterical uncontrollable crying is not , but general crying is fine :-)

[GeorgiaAnne]

Why do you think children cry?
It is to express a want, a need, frustration, sadness, because they're hot/cold/hungry/lonely for starters. Personally, if my child feels any of these things I would like to make it better straight away. I'm also aware some children cry more than others - my daughter cries a lot, my son rarely but I still answer those cries straight away. Even with my daughter when I know it's just for attention or for a bullsh1t reason, I still do. That's my choice - i'm not a perfect mum but that is one area I think is important.

[stellarella]

that is your opinion i believe crying is good for them , yes hysterical uncontrollable crying is not , but general crying is fine :-)

Do you have anything to support your claim that crying is good for babies lungs?
Crying is inevitable at times - yes. But good for their lungs - no.

I do understand that sometimes babies just cry to release tension, frustration etc. But your statement that it is "good for their lungs" is unfounded and a myth.

There is a difference between something being tolerable and being good. Crying needs to be tolerated at times but that doesn't mean it is good for babies.

[stellarella]

7. Crying isn't "good for baby's lungs." One of the most ridiculous pieces of medical folklore is the dictum: "Let baby cry, it's good for his lungs." In the late 1970's, research showed that babies who were left to cry had heart rates that reached worrisome levels, and lowered oxygen levels in their blood. When these infants' cries were soothed, their cardiovascular system rapidly returned to normal, showing how quickly babies recognize the status of well being on a physiologic level. When a baby's cries are not soothed, he remains in physiologic as well as psychological distress.
The erroneous belief about the healthfulness of crying survives even today in one of the scales of the Apgar score, a sort of test that physicians use to rapidly assess a newborn's condition in the first few minutes after birth. Babies get an extra two points for "crying lustily." I remember pondering this concept back in the mid 1970's when I was the director of a newborn nursery in a university hospital, even before fathering a high-need baby had turned me into an opponent of crying it out. It seemed to me that awarding points for crying made no sense physiologically. The newborn who was in the state of quiet alertness, breathing normally, and actually pinker than the crying infant lost points on the Apgar score. It still amazes me that the most intriguing of all human sounds—the infant's cry—is still so misunderstood.


From Ask Dr Sears
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/5/t051200.asp

The rest of the page is good too.

[OurLittleBlessing]

I have two genuine questions for those that are opposed to CC:

1. what happens when your little one won't allow you to rock or pat them to sleep, won't take a dummy, and thinks co-sleeping is just a time to play?

Even from very early on my now 6 month old DD, seemed to prefer to go to sleep on her own. Sometimes that involved a little crying. She has never vomitted and if she sounds like she is getting worked up, of course I comfort her.

What would be the no-cry sleep solution in this instance?

2. have any studies been done on the effects of sleep deprivation on babies? I'm talking about hours and hours of wakefulness, not just 'normal' baby behaviour. I wonder if sometimes a little crying and or grizzling (not to the extreme of vomitting/or for hours at a time) for a few days might not actually be the better alternative for their physical and emotional health? This is a serious question - just something I've been wondering about.

What do others think?

BTW, my DD is one of the happiest little bubbas I know, she is nearly always smiling and laughing and just generally content. I put this down to the fact that she has a full nights sleep most nights. Although it is impossible to know for sure - maybe she would have been like this anyway :)

[Phyllis Stein]

that is your opinion i believe crying is good for them , yes hysterical uncontrollable crying is not , but general crying is fine :-)

There's nothing wrong with crying per se, but the way we respond to it (or not) can be harmful. If my baby is crying simply for the sake of crying (i.e. to express his feelings rather than a specific need), I'd respond with comfort for comfort's sake, just the same as I'd comfort a distressed adult! The idea of ignoring the cries of the littlest, neediest and least able human beings baffles and appalls me.

[GeorgiaAnne]

I have two genuine questions for those that are opposed to CC:

1. what happens when your little one won't allow you to rock or pat them to sleep, won't take a dummy, and thinks co-sleeping is just a time to play?

Even from very early on my now 6 month old DD, seemed to prefer to go to sleep on her own. Sometimes that involved a little crying. She has never vomitted and if she sounds like she is getting worked up, of course I comfort her.

What would be the no-cry sleep solution in this instance?

2. have any studies been done on the effects of sleep deprivation on babies? I'm talking about hours and hours of wakefulness, not just 'normal' baby behaviour. I wonder if sometimes a little crying and or grizzling (not to the extreme of vomitting/or for hours at a time) for a few days might not actually be the better alternative for their physical and emotional health? This is a serious question - just something I've been wondering about.

What do others think?

BTW, my DD is one of the happiest little bubbas I know, she is nearly always smiling and laughing and just generally content. I put this down to the fact that she has a full nights sleep most nights. Although it is impossible to know for sure - maybe she would have been like this anyway :)

1 - My dd was much the same as yours and was quite difficult to settle and no matter what I did she would cry. I just would always stay in the room and sit in the dark next to her so that she knew I was there and have my hand resting on her tummy/back so she could feel me. She wasn't one for rocking or patting or anything else. I just couldn't walk out and leave her to it.

2 - Not to my knowledge.

My ds, 5 months is the happiest little chap in the world and could make the hardest heart clucky. He wont sleep more than 45 mins in a row during the day and wakes 3-4 times a night. So yeah, I think temperament is just that.

[Benji]

2. have any studies been done on the effects of sleep deprivation on babies? I'm talking about hours and hours of wakefulness, not just 'normal' baby behaviour. I wonder if sometimes a little crying and or grizzling (not to the extreme of vomitting/or for hours at a time) for a few days might not actually be the better alternative for their physical and emotional health? This is a serious question - just something I've been wondering about.

I often wonder that myself - my boy was quite difficult for me to be around for ages because he was so unhappy due to tiredness.

Once I did the "controlled comforting" :rolleyes: he was a completely different person, it was amazing. He was so happy & content.

I can't imagine wanting to tell other people what they can and can't do with their babies, and I find it quite odd that other people think it's ok to do so.

I know of many women who have suffered from PND or have just felt so stressed out that they have had to leave their baby in their room/bed for a few minutes so they could compose themselves (myself included).

Should we start calling children's services for every little thing now?

[GeorgiaAnne]

I can't imagine wanting to tell other people what they can and can't do with their babies, and I find it quite odd that other people think it's ok to do so.


Why do you think this? No one is telling anyone what to do, we are just voicing our opinions and experiences. If you don't like it, don't read it. The only time I tell people what to do is if they ask me.

[Benji]

Why do you think this? No one is telling anyone what to do, we are just voicing our opinions and experiences. If you don't like it, don't read it. The only time I tell people what to do is if they ask me.


I mean if it becomes legislation. That's certainly telling people what to do.

I'm fairly certain smacking/spanking isn't illegal yet anyway, so I can't see CCing being outlawed.

[OurLittleBlessing]

I often wonder that myself - my boy was quite difficult for me to be around for ages because he was so unhappy due to tiredness.

Once I did the "controlled comforting" :rolleyes: he was a completely different person, it was amazing. He was so happy & content.

I can't imagine wanting to tell other people what they can and can't do with their babies, and I find it quite odd that other people think it's ok to do so.

I know of many women who have suffered from PND or have just felt so stressed out that they have had to leave their baby in their room/bed for a few minutes so they could compose themselves (myself included).

Should we start calling children's services for every little thing now?

I've heard a lot of people say what you just did, about there being a transformation in their baby's behaviour when they did controlled comforting. If it is so bad for them emotionally, why are they so happy and content afterwards?

Regardless, I agree with you, it baffles me that people would try and tell others how to parent their children and not only that, call it abuse when you are doing what you believe is loving for your child (not necessarily this thread - IRL and on some other threads I have read).

In my case, my DD is happier being left on her own to sleep. And while there may have been some crying/grizzling in the past, when I pop her in her cot, she grins at me and then sucks on her thumb and goes off to sleep. No-one can tell me that she feels neglected or unloved!

[Penthesilea]

I went to Tresillian with my first baby when she was about one. I'd been breastfeeding on demand, carrying her, and co-sleeping. We did some traveling. When we came back she had no routine. She was a wakeful baby. During the night she had fallen off the bed. I was so exhausted I would get up in the morning, lie on the floor and cry, not knowing how I could make it through the day. When I realised I'd been living on toast and noodles and that I felt I should have my driver's licence taken away because I was not really able to drive safely, I decided to get help. It wasn't a case of 'I might shake the baby', but more a case of 'I don't have the resources to protect my child when she is in danger'. I didn't remember how I wanted to raise my child and I was too exhausted to implement any policies or philosophies I may have had. I just wanted to get through the day. I was so desperate I believed it must be better to be in jail because as least I could sleep there.

With my second baby I breastfed on demand, co-slept and carried her. I had mastitis four times in six months. I had a psychotic reaction to a shot of procaine penicillin which meant I believed I was dying (it is called Hoignes Syndrome). I was feeding my baby more at night than during the day - up to eight times. I went to Tresillian for the help I needed.

I believe that Tresillian saved my family twice. After my children learned to sleep on their own, we could function again. My kids were much happier after I got out of their way. And they had a mum who could look after them (and herself). We could have fun. I could give them my attention.

For my third kid I breastfed on demand, co-slept and carried her. You can see that I had a strong instinct to keep my babies close to me. When she was six months old I'd wrap her and put her to bed in the cot. She learnt to settle herself simply because I was busy with the other kids and couldn't run in to comfort her immediately every time she grizzled. Often by the time I got to her she was asleep.

All my kids are fine. They know I love them.

No-one does controlled crying/comfort settling for fun. It would be nice if we could live like we are in a village or a tribe, and everyone helped mothers and babies but it isn't like that in our society and you have to find ways to manage as best you can. If I didn't go to Tresillian for help I would have done something desperate and we certainly wouldn't be the family we are today.

It is better to get the help you need than keep going with something that isn't working.

[lovelymum]

I don't CC.

I just don't pass judgement on others who do.

As of tomorrow night, I will be "controlled crying" because I'm absolutely fed up!

Before you head down the CC track I dont know what you have tried but with our DS we put a cd player in his room and bought recorded book CDs for him to listen to hi five do them, wiggles even kung fu panda ones etc... We found that he would lay in his bed and listen to his story and drift off to sleep without much fuss, you may have already tried it? But if you havnt it is so worth a go maybe take him shopping for some and make a big fuss about it get him to be excited about going to bed!! (sorry to interupt this thread!)

[Benji]

Before you head down the CC track I dont know what you have tried but with our DS we put a cd player in his room and bought recorded book CDs for him to listen to hi five do them, wiggles even kung fu panda ones etc... We found that he would lay in his bed and listen to his story and drift off to sleep without much fuss, you may have already tried it? But if you havnt it is so worth a go maybe take him shopping for some and make a big fuss about it get him to be excited about going to bed!! (sorry to interupt this thread!)

Thanks for the idea, it's starting to become a matter of discipline though.

He has classical music on at night and it helps a *tad*.. but last night I actually shut his door once he eventually fell asleep, and locked my door, he called out for me at around midnight and I ignored him and we both slept until 8.16 am :eek::eek::eek:

So controlled calling it is lol!

[Penthesilea]

I mean if it becomes legislation. That's certainly telling people what to do.

I'm fairly certain smacking/spanking isn't illegal yet anyway, so I can't see CCing being outlawed.


In Sweden it is illegal to smack your child. And it is illegal to advertise to small children. Are families in Sweden happier and healthier? I don't know.

I've been looking at the policies of countries that are the most socially progressive in terms of supporting mothers and children - Sweden comes up tops, with France, Belgium, the rest of Scandinavia etc. Policies like maternity leave, part time employment if you have kids under age 8, free preschool, capping the working week at 35 hours etc. Friends in Sweden say that the country is now turning right. That women are not offered the more serious jobs. There are problems with race relations. France also has problems with race. Small business owners can't expand their businesses. A friend who just traveled around Europe says that it seems everyone smokes and drinks in France, Spain & Portugal, even older kids. There are race problems, and even in the villages people don't necessarily know their neighbours.

So the models that the mothers' movement and maternal feminists are looking to (the policies of these socially progressive European countries) are not failproof. The solutions may not be such great solutions after all. We need to keep thinking and tracking what is happening and asking questions.

Funny how what you believe changes when you have more experience...