Why do bad things happen to good people? [Archive] - Bub Hub Pregnancy & Parenting Forum

MilkOnTap

31-05-2006, 18:28

Why do you think God allows bad things to happen?

I dont htink, "its all part of gods plan" is a good enough answer!

Unfortunately there is no earthly way to answer a spiritual question! I guess the best way that I can answer (with my own opinion that is:D ) is that everything we go through in life is a trial; its a life experience that is going to assist us in the future.

For example, I have lost two babies. Through these trials, I have gained life experience that I can now chat with and 'counsel' with (for lack of a better word) other women who have also lost babies.

Another example - my grandmother lost my grandfather tragically through a boating accident where my grandfather drowned. If he had come home that day however - she never would have began a Solo Mothers group and would never have had the opportunity to help other men and women through the tragic demise of their loved ones.

Life was never meant to be easy... The bible says that we were made in the image of Jesus, and look at the life that he had! Certainly not the easiest existence that I have ever encountered...

But the thing is - these difficulties and trials that we go through in life make us stronger. Christianity aside; there are so many sayings like "what doesnt kill you will make you stronger" and its true. It doesn't make it any easier to get through at the time, but in the long-run you look back and have wisdom which you never would have gained otherwise.

As far as things like naural disasters go - I honestly dont know how to answer those kind of questions. I dont know why these things happen; and I'm not going to pretend that I do. All I can do (as a Christian) is have faith and believe that whatever Gods plan is MUST be the best one around.

drewid

31-05-2006, 18:32

Natural disasters don't just happen to the same people, they happen in the same area. Because they are the hot zones for natural disasters. Places like Indonesia are just in a bad spot and prone to earthquakes etc. Its just the way things are IYKWIM. There is no rhyme or reason. It doesn't mean that the people there are bad, or good, or whatever. It just IS.

Ana Gram

31-05-2006, 18:38

This is one of the reasons I do not believe in the concept of god.

bronny-jane

31-05-2006, 18:41

who say's they do?

i'm a good person and i've been lucky.

are you sure you've been good:p

im not lucky:D

kymmy

31-05-2006, 20:27

This is one of the reasons I do not believe in the concept of god.

that is why I ask
I want to know how ppl think and what they believe
everybody is diff

drewid

31-05-2006, 20:38

I have to go with Chellegoth here. I have too much 'faith' in science to take on the idea of a God out there pushing buttons and making the decisions.

No one has ever given me a theory that encompasses science AND god, so I forever sit on the fence on that one.

(And yes BJ, I'm sure i've been good ;))

Aquamarine

01-06-2006, 13:45

okay why do bad ppl have all the luck?

They may have 'all the luck' here in this lifetime. But I truly believe in the next life they will have to explain their actions and 'they themselves' will be the judge and jury.

Another thing I believe is that people with disabilites eg, cerebal palsy, reach a higher level in the next life than the average 'normal' person because they don't have the opportunity to sin the way we do. We have to earn it to get to the level they progress straight to. They will be rewarded for what they have had to endure in this lifetime.

That's just my belief, others may disagree, that's cool!!!:thumbsup:

kymmy

01-06-2006, 14:06

Do bad ppl have all the luck?

And what is a bad person?

SixtiesChild

01-06-2006, 14:31

Before I answer this question, I want to say that no matter what I write, I respect the decision of those who do not believe that there is a God and that I respect their right to hold this faith. I hope that others can do the same.

This is a really good question and I think that at some point in our lives everyone asks themselves this.
I don't have all the answers but some times I have noticed that when something bad happens to good people it is because someone else has carried out a bad decision and unfortunately one or more innocent people reap the effects of the problem.
Sometimes tragically many lives can be lost.

Here is just one example:
If we take oil out of the ground in massive quantities, science has proven that this causes earthquakes. The reason for the earthquakes is because the oil has a purpose and is there to act as a shock absorber between the earths tectonic plates. The earthquakes are just a matter of time and can happen randomly. When we omit this type of information we can neglect a very important peice of the puzzle and are left wondering why and if there is a God, why would He allow it.

In these situations, I think it's fair to say that something has got to give for poor decisions.:o

We have the technologies many times over to have free power from the sun or wind but our government is looking at nuclear power instead. :confused:

I do believe in God (Of the bible especially the New Testament) and I perfectly understand when people say where is He during such times.
However from my updated understanding of the bible and in addition to what I hear and see in the world, the majority of people of this age will not know Him. (whatever the personal reason and circumstances)

It has been unfortunate that in the last century many so called Christian churches have misrepresented God through focussing on hellfire & brimstone which is not the focus of the message that Christ was delivering at all. This practice has misinformed many people of the last few generations through no fault of their own and has caused a massive loss of faith in God.

The God that I know is a merciful one,
I do not believe that God is an ogre in the sky that presses buttons to get what he wants, rather He wants us to get to know Him and finally work with Him.
My opinion based on regular bible study is that God is watching humanity at this stage to see if they can suceed to live without Him and not destroy the earth and not destroy each other.
He cannot bear to look at a humanity that doesn't want Him :gloomy: which I think is fair enough if He created them. (Imagine having children that don't want to know you)
But He still respects their decision & that is why he doesn't intervene when disasters happen.
If you read the New Testament, God is exactly like this. He leaves humanity to it's own devices to show humanity that they are limited without Him. There is a huge story unfolding & It doesn't end there,
The bible speaks also of a coming age where every tear shall be wiped away, so that is good news.
I could tell you more bible interpretation but am running out of time.

bellagirl

01-06-2006, 14:37

jason lovett

01-06-2006, 14:56

I think its like they say, only the good die young!

I have to say that if god is real, what is he doing?.......

I have a little friend that is in a wheelchair, what did she ever do to deserve that, god says he will never harm his children?:shame:
then again whats the meaning of life?:confused:

well im a believer yes i believe in science natural science from what ive seen in religion is nothing but bad jst look at history with reigious people killing religious people because of their beliefs and its still going on now,catholics,christians,muslims they are all at it and still are today....

one of the most off putting things i have come across was from some religious guy who said people in wheel chairs are the re incarnation or someone in a past life who was bad nd he was on about anyone who is born with a medical defest how sick?

and we all humans are bad we are all destroying the world we live in from the day humans invented civilisation..
a jehovah said to me if the sun moves a metre closer to earth we would all melt and then said even scientists agree someone is holding the sun back lmfao.....
i very much doubt a true scientist would say that...

cjb/jbvd

01-06-2006, 15:06

maybe good things happen to bad people because god is trying to give them the chance to be better.

and maybe bad things happen to good people because the devil is trying to shake their faith and turn them away from believing.

because if you believe in the power of good, then you gotta believe in the power of bad too.

someone once told me that the devil doesn't have to make you believe in him to win, he just has to get people to not believe in god.

for those of us with healthy children, how can you look at one of their smiles and not believe in god?? how can you not believe when you see them grow, and master new skills every day?? how can you not believe when you feel that wash of love from just one hug??

and no, i have never been a church going, nor very religious. but i do have strong faith.

but please feel free to believe whatever you choose. and i appologise for any offence this post may have caused.

Ana Gram

01-06-2006, 15:42

for those of us with healthy children, how can you look at one of their smiles and not believe in god?? how can you not believe when you see them grow, and master new skills every day?? how can you not believe when you feel that wash of love from just one hug??

Don't want to niggle here but you asked the question. I look at my healthy child and feel all those things and still not believe in any type of god. Someone's god isn't going to get credit for making her, I made her with my partner - noone else was involved.

WeThree

01-06-2006, 16:07

cjb/jbvd

01-06-2006, 16:28

Just curious, why would only healthy children evoke such a feeling?
I have looked into the faces of downs syndrome children and others with different disabilities and have still seen a glimpse of Heaven :yes:

i too share this feeling regarding children with special needs. all children are beautiful. however i was trying to take into account those people who feel 'why me' when something like that occurs. not trying to be discrimanatory.......

WeThree

01-06-2006, 16:38

i too share this feeling regarding children with special needs. all children are beautiful. however i was trying to take into account those people who feel 'why me' when something like that occurs. not trying to be discrimanatory.......

oh ok, that makes sense :) sorry about the misunderstanding, thanks for clearing that up. :)

cjb/jbvd

01-06-2006, 16:43

that's ok, glad i didn't offend you......hate upsetting people when i didn't mean too!! :D

Nan

02-06-2006, 10:53

a jehovah said to me if the sun moves a metre closer to earth we would all melt and then said even scientists agree someone is holding the sun back lmfao.....
i very much doubt a true scientist would say that...

I'm just interested as to why you think that and who you would define as a true scientist? After all, some of the biggest names in science that the world has ever known (who are credited with inventing or theorising some incredible stuff!) were Christians .....Newton (law of gravity, telescope), Kepler (astronomy, celestial mechanics), Faraday (electric generator, field theory), Bacon (founder of the scientific method) , Da Vinci (hydraulics), Kelvin (temperature scale, transatlantic cable), Pascal (barometer), Linnaeus (founder of the classification system), Morse (telegraph), Pasteur (bacteriology, pasteurisation)......just to name a few!! These men all believed in God and the authority of the Bible. :yes: I'm not attacking you! I just wanted to let you know.
Love,
Nan. xx

Tea Lady

02-06-2006, 13:51

I don't think any of us is actually totally good.................so I think good things and bad things happen to people who are good and bad.

EskimoMumma

02-06-2006, 13:58

I look at natural diseaters as a way of evening out the worlds population. They dont always happen in poorer countries either.

Blessed Mum

03-06-2006, 22:12

This very question is something I have struggled with for a while now & after some good advice from some of fellow bubhubbers I have started to explore christianity again & just a little bit at a time I am starting to see things in a different light. I am not super religious but I believe the answers to my questions are there & I have to be ready to see & hear them. I am truly finding peace & feeling like things are making sense. Now this is only on a personal level I hope to oneday know the answer to your question. I am enjoying reading others perspectives on this though.:)

MonkeyMum05

03-06-2006, 23:20

In reply to the orignal post by Kymmy....
I believe that 'good' and 'bad' are only perceptions... everything just 'is'... its the way we percieve them that makes them good or bad... right or wrong.

I also believe that we have fate (whether ruled by god, the moon or no one in particular), but there is also a chaotic force that sometimes randomly interferes with that.

natasha

05-06-2006, 19:16

Nan

06-06-2006, 12:09

I think anone who had a heart would say that a little girl being molested by her father is 'bad'.That isn't just a perception, it could never be described as 'good' or 'neither'! That is a bad thing to happen to someone, let alone a little girl. I have struggled with the question 'why would God let this happen to me', and I have no answers. I believe in God, but I'm not sure what he is playing at sometimes. How he can let such evil go on in the world.
I would tend to agree with that comment. I think there definitely IS bad and there definitely IS good, but that people have different opinions on the whre the line is drawn as to how good or bad something or someone is.
I also wonder how such evil can go on, but if we knew the answer to that, then we'd have the mind of God! (and that wouldn't make Him very great!) We just have to remember that God made people with a choice. It is people who choose to do bad or good, not God. He lets humans do what they want because He loves us. He wouldn't be very loving if He made us all to be robots who always had to do what He wanted would He? Just a thought. It is a very interesting debate. :yes:
Love,
Nan. xx

natasha

06-06-2006, 12:32

I sometimes wish he'd send another flood!:rolleyes: :p

SJE

06-06-2006, 13:52

I would tend to agree with that comment. I think there definitely IS bad and there definitely IS good, but that people have different opinions on the whre the line is drawn as to how good or bad something or someone is.
I also wonder how such evil can go on, but if we knew the answer to that, then we'd have the mind of God! (and that wouldn't make Him very great!) We just have to remember that God made people with a choice. It is people who choose to do bad or good, not God. He lets humans do what they want because He loves us. He wouldn't be very loving if He made us all to be robots who always had to do what He wanted would He? Just a thought. It is a very interesting debate. :yes:
Love,
Nan. xx

I would have to agree with Nan on this one. I asked this question a while ago about this.

I think it is so we have the choice.
God is more than able to get rid of evil but He chooses not to at this stage so people have more opportunity to choose Him?

I have an aviary at home. Nothing is better than when one of the birds choose to interact with me. When they have to be caught forcefully for medical treatment, they struggle and bite. Perhaps it's a little bit like this for God? God wants to interact with us with our permission in other words, He is a gentleman.
Where in love, kindness, gentleness is there force and hurtful manipulation.

There is evidence in my own life of how He makes good of everything.
No matter what happens I know it is for a reason and that He is turning it into something good.

shinebrite

06-06-2006, 17:33

Im just gonna jump in here for a tick I havent read all u r posts but thought it was quiet interesting coming back home to this just after I have been in hospital for 5 days. Ive been diagnosed with a blood clot in my lung Ive had a horrible time these past few days and to say 'im not a good enough person' would be a cop out! I pray to God we have a close personal relationship with each other, I read my bible, worship him, bring my tithes to the house!

Things DO just happen for a reason and we should accept that! thats a part of life! If u put ur hand in a fire will it get burnt? most likely! U cant say that God caused that because U were the one who put yourself in danger! he gave u a conscience and nerves and all the things that u need to make you stop putting your hand in a fire but you did SO the consequence of that is getting burnt!

My friends nearly 2 years ago were in a car crash (im sure some of you have heard me say this before) one died instanlty, he was an awesome worship guitarist at our church, he was also training preacher, he loved God more than i could fathom!

the other guy who is a vegtable! he cant speak or eat for himself he may as well not b here BUT he is! they were going up a horrible windy road and it was raining there was also oil on the road where they had the accident the car slipped out and the ran into a tree and another car came on top of them. the thing is the car wasnt safe in the first place, it was raining and the road is dangerous! U cant say that 'they were just bad ppl' it was a consequence of all the actions that led up to it IYKWIM. I struggle to this DAY in comprehending the fact my 2 good friends are no longer with me helping me through but at least I know for a fact one of them is in heaven playing his guitar right infront of his almighty God, which I KNOW for a fact he would prefer to b there than here! and the other well, he just might b a miricle in the making? mayb one day God will get him out of the consequencial state he is in and mayb it will touch lives and help them onto the good cause??? dunno im not God but I DO know that ALL of it NO MATTER what is IN Gods hands, he gets us through the horriblest of times even when we dont think that is possible!

As I said before I have a blood clot in my lung, the doctors say that I will be induced to have my baby in less than 6weeks I could just sit and ask God "why did this happen to me" but I havent! cause i know that he is taking care of this situation! its out of ALL of our hands and into a doctors hands now I have to have 2 injections a day for the next 4months and i cry everytime I have to get them cause the stuff in them really hurts and makes my leg go numb but when ur preg ur blood is thicker and thats why u can sometimes get clots not cause someone wants a feild day with my body!

Ill just let u in on a sermon once preached at my church right after the tsunami!
before the flood in the bible, there was NO rain on the earth! (my pastor told me all this as he is a good reasearcher) the only thing to subdue the land was dew. but when adam and eve eventually sinned rain came on the earth and the course of the earth aging took place - floods, tsunamis all those type of weird things so everything WAS a consequence!

Ally u put it quite nicly when u said "there is no earthly way to answer a spiritual question" and i SO agree!

I hope I havent offended ANYONE with this answer, trust me it was unitentional but whover actually asked the question?? cant remeber who (preg brains) was it u who asked ur preist and they couldnt answer??? i think thats quite apauling mayb u should find God more in his word for yourself?? thats what its there for! Read it cause ul b amazed at what God can impart through u in times of need...:hugs:

kymmy

06-06-2006, 19:23

I sometimes wish he'd send another flood!:rolleyes: :p

Don't worry the fire will come soon.
It is great to hear all the posts.
Just wanted to say from my point of view,
I don't feel I can be a judge of who is bad or good.
I can only know what is
if that makes any sense
For example: I don't hate people but I may hate what they do.

Though I do understand the anger expressed towards certain people namely
sex offenders:shame: ZERO tolerance
That is something I can never understand.

Nan

07-06-2006, 11:57

....Things DO just happen for a reason and we should accept that! thats a part of life! If u put ur hand in a fire will it get burnt? most likely! U cant say that God caused that because U were the one who put yourself in danger! he gave u a conscience and nerves and all the things that u need to make you stop putting your hand in a fire but you did SO the consequence of that is getting burnt!....

As I said before I have a blood clot in my lung, the doctors say that I will be induced to have my baby in less than 6weeks I could just sit and ask God "why did this happen to me" but I havent! cause i know that he is taking care of this situation!....

Here, here, Shine!! A very good analogy.
BTW, you're in my prayers. Have faith in the Almighty! He's teaching you something to help you get closerto Him. And that is awesome - even if if really sucks right now. He loves you heaps. :hugs:
Love,
Nan. xx

Mum2AandJ

16-06-2006, 21:22

I used to ask this question all the time. I didnt understand why I always had bad things happen to me when I always do everything to make everyone happy, and I didnt do anything wrong. I think things happen in life for a reason, everything that happens in your life either makes you stronger,or there is a lesson in everything, but it continues to happen to you until you sit back and learn the lesson, then your life can change. I had a terrible childhood and always asked why me... but it made me the person I am, I am gonna help so many children with my psycology degree and I am gonna foster as many kids as I can and give all the love that I possible can. Life is so delicate we can give all the love possible now to as many people as we can and when we leave this earth to the next place, we will have changed peoples lifes made a difference. Sometimes one persons pain in the future may heal other people pain, with love and caring and support that they dont have, which is priceless!!!

SixtiesChild

17-06-2006, 02:18

This is an excellent thread with a really good timeless question.

It's hard to imagine but maybe there is some hidden purpose behind suffering. That after all the pain that people have endured- that good can eventually come out of it in some unexpected way.
Personally, I feel that suffering develops character in people.
Most of the people that I know that have had terrible things happen to them have aquired a lot of wisdom through that suffering. And in turn through that suffering and eventual wisdom, they have left their closed mindedness and found a God they were not expecting at all to find. And through their suffering they miraculously have found themselves and their purpose in life.
See: www.purposedrivenlife.com

meshan

17-06-2006, 09:09

I believe life is like a tapastrey - during life we can only see the messy side, the treads and stiches and we cannot make sense of it at all.

After we die we get to see the other side - the picture is revealed and we finally understand.

Mum2AandJ

17-06-2006, 09:11

[QUOTE=Nadia]Personally, I feel that suffering develops character in people.
Most of the people that I know that have had terrible things happen to them have aquired a lot of wisdom through that suffering.QUOTE]

I agree. And I think these people who have suffered, when they see someone esle suffering and they can realte, they run to help and offer thier support full heartedly. These people aer the people that change peoples lives, make a difference. Especially with thier incredible wisdom, because they share thier wisdom with others that are around them. Some things that happen that are tracig (e.g) a couple of weeks ago a lady smashed into a truck, it was he last day at work as she was 7months pregnant, they both dies her and baby) It is heartbreaking what the husband will have to go though, the loss of them. He will most definately question life and why! I would be too... Those thing do make you think, what can possibly come from that???? I don't know myself??

kymmy

17-06-2006, 10:21

Why do we need to learn the hard way?
Does it make us stronger?

I believe in oppposition in all things
WE need to experience the hard times to feel bliss as well

Saraswati

17-06-2006, 20:26

I agree. You can't experience pleasure without experiencing pain. So here is a question - for those of you who believe in heaven, how does the theory of everlasting bliss actually work? Surely after a thousand or so years in 'heaven' you would no longer be able to identify that the bliss is 'pleasurable' - because there's nothing to compare it to?

SixtiesChild

17-06-2006, 22:23

Hi Pippy,

Heaven shall come down to earth.(It's in the bible but most people do not read it) So, I think that all that people have experienced on this earth will be the actual contrast. :)
God (New Testament) also says: One day I shall wipe away every tear.
And if there is one thing God cannot do is tell lies.

Mum2AandJ

18-06-2006, 09:19

I am reading My life as a spirit having a Human Experience. One lady is a Trance channel, She channela 7year old boy:After he was born, we were told that his birth mother could not have any more children, and so he started his life. On a sad note, Robert(7yr old) had told us earlier, that his life was to short and that he would drown at the age of about 7. He was there to teach his parents an understanding of Love and Spirituality.

She also said that Whereby people die by a horrible death, The planes that crashed into the Trade Centers in New York, the twin towers. The people on those planes "died" instantly but not the souls. In situationslike this, the soul evacuates the body brfore impact, so there is no pain. Further more the souls were always going home at this time, they were never in the wrong place, it was thier choice.

I found these 2 pieces of information interesting and thought i would share them with you. I would love to know what you think? I will post more interesting stuff later :o

kymmy

18-06-2006, 18:48

You can't experience pleasure without experiencing pain. So here is a question - for those of you who believe in heaven, how does the theory of everlasting bliss actually work? Surely after a thousand or so years in 'heaven' you would no longer be able to identify that the bliss is 'pleasurable' - because there's nothing to compare it to?

That is interesting...
I could go on and on about what I believe
but I will try to keep it short
I believe we will be resurrected in perfection and that we have potential to be kings and queens- that we will inherit the kingdom of heaven if we truly follow Jesus. I believe we will have a good memory of our past because of this.

Mister Noodle

18-06-2006, 19:33

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Seems clear-cut to me.

http://www.huaren.com/UnitedNations/sad-1.jpg

kymmy

18-06-2006, 20:03

Yes, God is everything.
He is all knowing, all powerful.

SixtiesChild

18-06-2006, 23:07

Mister Noodle

19-06-2006, 01:00

Mr Noodle,

It is true that the bible says that God created spiritual elements of good & evil. He also instilled the element of free will into the human heart in order to test the integrity of the human heart. It is people who are responsible for the tragedies on this earth. It is God who has provided humanity with the freedom to choose to do what is right, but they have not, to the demise of the entire planet.

So, exactly whose heart was your god testing when my grandmother took six months to die of liver cancer? Do you suppose she was consulted on the matter?

Exactly which humans were responsible for it - or for harlequin ichthyosis (google it), tsunamis, bubonic plague, earthquakes, droughts, floods, cholera, leprosy, crohn's disease, multiple sclerosis, volcanoes, etc?

What right things should have been done to prevent them? I'm just itching to know who to blame for all these things.

That distressing picture is only a tiny example of humanity�s failure to learn from God. I am not surprised by that picture.

Governments around the world should take care of their own people but they don�t.
If humanity doesn�t need God, then why can�t humanity fix that sorry sight, let alone the other millions and billions of other tragedies across the globe?

God has made it clear that He is not going to intervene in the personal affairs and decisions of humanity until we as a whole admit we need His guidance to direct us to do what is right. The picture of the child clearly illustrates we are incapable of making constructive decisions (collectively) on our own.:o

So, we should learn from god, eh?

Shall we learn from example?

First and foremost, he creates an infinite torture chamber called hell where people are tormented for all eternity for not loving, obeying or apologising sufficiently to their leader. That's moral guidance right there - obviously our leaders should follow suit.

Then there's the ichneumon wasp, which paralyses its prey before leying eggs in its flesh (but doesn't kill them - that way the meat stays fresh for when the larvae hatch). This teaches humane animal husbandry, no doubt.

Then there's the time he drowned uncounted millions of people (including children, babies, and the unborn) and animals around the world because apparently hell was too far off. If only humanity could learn such mildness, tolerance and forgiveness.

Then there's the time that god deliberately 'hardened Pharaoh's heart', and then slew every firstborn child in egypt because pharoah had a hard heart. Well, I think GWB has that lesson down pat, but it doesn't seem to be doing us all that much good.

Then there's repeated instructions (deuteronomy 20 ferinstance) to slay all the males in captured cities, but to take the women as spoils of war. In the case of the midianites, (numbers 30) only the virgin women were to be spared. My goodness, we mere mortals have foreign policy all wrong! If only we listened to his guidance!

Then there's the time God honoured a deal with Jephthah - in return for making a burnt offering for the first thing he saw on returning home, God would grant him victory in battle. As it happened, the first thing he saw was his daughter - and there were no last-minute don't-worry-isaac-my-boy saves for this one. By this example, we evidently learn the proper way to deal with our debtors. (judges 11, for those playing at home)

Then there's the time he sent two she-bears to maul and kill 42 children for mocking an old man (2 kings 2). Obviously, our mortal take on rehabilitiating delinquent youths is all wrong - why on earth don't we just look to the bible for guidance? (Jesus also approves of this in Mark 7:10)

Ezekiel 14:9 "And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel." Because killing people for believing your lies is a quality all statesmen should learn.

Mark 4:11 " And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them" Well, the big pharmaceutical companies have mastered this fragment of guidance - no letting foreigners manufacture their own survival, nossir.

And of course, to top it off, the only way he can restrain himself from torturing us all forever with fire is to have his own son murdered instead. This is a lesson we should all take to heart, I'm sure.

Further, in an attempt to trap Jesus, Satan also quoted from the Bible to make a point, but deep down, his intentions were to mislead and destroy.

In the scripture that you misquoted did you see that GOD also says �I Make Peace�. ?

Care to explain how it's a misquote?

Does making peace make up for evil? Personally, I don't think so.

Frankly, I can do without the intervention of such a person, and I can think of about six billion people whose guidance I'd be happier for the world to follow.

bronny-jane

19-06-2006, 07:04

I sometimes wish he'd send another flood!:rolleyes: :p

i can swim natasha if that was the way you planned to eradicate me:D

i think its quite obvious, perhaps their isnt a "god" at all.:devil6:

the more i think about it the less i believe, i think we can make things happen with intention though, but only because we are matter, the same thing that the stars are created from, you dont need to wish on a star, its within forever

Ana Gram

19-06-2006, 07:11

i can swim natasha if that was the way you planned to eradicate me:D

Uh-oh, I'm in trouble then. I can't swim!

bronny-jane

19-06-2006, 07:13

Uh-oh, I'm in trouble then. I can't swim!

quisk buy some floaties or a tinnie:D

Ana Gram

19-06-2006, 07:41

Got built in floaties - E cups :D

Mister Noodle

19-06-2006, 09:51

Ana Gram

19-06-2006, 10:30

Just don't tell anyone about the black helicopters.... d'oh!

Cool, goth helicpoters. I knew I was on the right team.

kymmy

19-06-2006, 11:14

i think its quite obvious, perhaps their isnt a "god" at all.:devil6:

the more i think about it the less i believe, i think we can make things happen with intention though, but only because we are matter, the same thing that the stars are created from, you dont need to wish on a star, its within forever

I ask these questions not to say there is a God or not,
but I am interested in the whys...

I don't think life or the World is perfect.
I also don't believe that if you follow Jesus that life will be dandy.
It just doesn't work like that.
Jesus was perfect and look what He went through....

shinebrite

19-06-2006, 11:18

Mister noodle - once again your face appears in the weirdest of places...NOT!

If you put your hand in a fire will it get burnt?... YES! you made the desicion for yourself to put it into the fire so why blame God for something that u could of prevented from happening???

God gave everyone a choice he gave Adam and Eve a choice in the begining and they chose to go against the grain...YET they decided to suffer the consequenses! thats just how it happens! look at the food chain..a classic example of "the way of life"

You may not think there is a God..there you go THATS your choice

First and foremost, he creates an infinite torture chamber called hell where people are tormented for all eternity for not loving, obeying or apologising sufficiently to their leader. That's moral guidance right there - obviously our leaders should follow suit.

Hell was not a place for humans it was for the fallen angels and satan you have a CHOICE to not go there!

kymmy

19-06-2006, 11:26

Hell was not a place for humans it was for the fallen angels and satan you have a CHOICE to not go there!

Free agency is a gift we receive along with a body
I don't believe Satan has either- that is why he wants us to be miserable too.

Mister Noodle

19-06-2006, 11:49

Shinebrite: explain how humans were the cause of any of the things I mentioned in my post. Either that, or explain the relevance of your reply.

Mister Noodle

19-06-2006, 11:51

Um. Is it a CHOICE to not get shot in the kneecaps - so long as you pay the protection money?

cjb/jbvd

19-06-2006, 12:17

i've seen people quoting the bible on this thread to argue for or agints points.

i'm not too sure this is the right document to be quoting. after all, the commercially available bible doesn't contain all the books written by the disciples, let alone all the thousands of other writings that the church has access to.

not only that, but the bible was written by man, translated by man and so reflects all of man's prejudice and humanity.

each page is open to the interpretation of the reader in question.

i can't tell you why some people suffer through no fault of their own. like with cancer or miscarriages or abuse. perhaps it's what the people around them choose to learn or do about the person's suffering that is the lesson. you can choose to do nothing about it, watch from the sidelines, or wonder why them. or you can choose to be happy you had some small amount of time with that person. you can choose to help them. you can choose to accept whatever small measure of love and appreciation you felt for whatever small instant that the person inspired in you.

no-one said life was going to be easy. some things hurt alot and deeply. i guess maybe the ability to feel is something we should be grateful for.

bronny-jane

19-06-2006, 12:31

Jesus was perfect and look what He went through....

was he, i believe he did exist, but i dont believe he was the son of "god":D

and according to the dead sea scrolls, he wasnt that perfect and neither was his wife;) :D

bronny-jane

19-06-2006, 12:34

Bronny: The Evil Atheist Conspiracy is always looking for new members.

We have weekly social barbecues, however you do have to bring your own kitten.

Just don't tell anyone about the black helicopters.... d'oh! Just don't tell anyone else about them. Because they don't exist. That's right, people. Nothing to see here. These aren't the droids you're looking for. Move along.

well i do have a black cat, will he do:D

as for the helicopters i thought you guys used alien technolgy borrowed from the scientoligists who stole the plans from the raelians:D

Mister Noodle

19-06-2006, 12:54

*kick in shins*

Shush, dammit, they aren't supposed to know that! Not until we complete the ritual!

kymmy

19-06-2006, 12:54

was he, i believe he did exist, but i dont believe he was the son of "god":D

and according to the dead sea scrolls, he wasnt that perfect and neither was his wife;) :D

I believe Jesus was perfect and that He was and is the son of God
but I respect that others don't.
I don't know much about the scrolls so can't comment
And i don't believe He was married and had children- that is new to me, actually:confused:
If that were true it would make everything else I believed not true
But I have a testimony so ...

As for the Bible, I believe it has been corrupted by man, in many ways

bronny-jane

19-06-2006, 13:07

*kick in shins*

Shush, dammit, they aren't supposed to know that! Not until we complete the ritual!

ritual....:confused: .....oh you mean until you've paid your home loan back:D

Mum2AandJ

19-06-2006, 16:51

From the book The messenger:
Souls are continually being born from the great one. It may be hard to understand that we are energy, every living thing is energy, every inanimate object is energy and you can see this when you look at atoms, everything is energy. We as young souls start the process of learning, The great one has never experienced material life, and so lives it through us. You have to understand that we to are part of the great one. We are god so to speak. We are learning everything there is to be learned, we are doing this to be once again joined.
Jesus when explaining who we are, stated that if God was a great Lake, we are the dropplets of moisture that detatch from the lake and float of, and continually return as rain, For we are always part of the lake and always return.

Kymmy said: As for the Bible, I believe it has been corrupted by man, in many ways! I agree with you. This book was written by man, so therefore influnced by the ignorance of man. Before Jesus laft, he left the 10 comandmants carved in stone, I believe they are from him, but the bible is not.
They also found the dead sea scrolls (now know as the red sea scrolls) These were found hidden and scatted all over the mountains13 miles east of Jerusalem in Israel . These are the original writings from Jesus although when found they were sold all over and were scattered all over the world and still have hardly been recovered. In the bit of the scrolls that were recoved Jesus said: 'You do not need to go to a church or a certain place to speak to me or pray to me, for I am in the wood in the wall of that church, if you split the wood I am in there if you break a stone I am in there, for I am everywhere. You just need to speak my name no matter where you are and I am there, I am everywhere'.

Saraswati

19-06-2006, 17:03

i guess maybe the ability to feel is something we should be grateful for.

Couldn't agree more. What about this: Just say 'God' is not a bearded man in the sky, but simply the term used to describe the universal energy, the 'all that is', which means EVERYTHING is God. You, me, the kitchen table. And we might also want to term this energy 'love'. Therefore everything is ultimately One and everything is love. Then we could say that physical life is a way for God to experience itself subjectively.

With this perspective, all of life is beautiful, because we can see that everything is one. And we are all one with each other. Our feelings are the voice of that God energy. This is why meditation is also useful. If you still the mind, you can literally feel this loving energy humming away inside and around you.

That's what i meant about how if heaven were really as the religious folk describe it, it could not be enjoyed because there would be no opposing experiences. I still think there's a spiritual world, but that after experiencing and learning in the spiritual world, the soul chooses a new physical lifetime in which to evolve further.

This may not make much sense.... just thought I'd throw a bit of quantum physics into the equation. :thumbsup:

Saraswati

19-06-2006, 17:06

Hi Krystalaa! I didn't see your post before I posted mine! Sorry to be so repetitive, it seems we have the same idea. :yelclap:

I love the lake analogy. I also think of it as God being the sun and we are the rays. The rays are still the sun, if you know what i mean....

Mum2AandJ

19-06-2006, 17:25

No worries Pippy, very intersting that you say all that! Yes agree with you.

The souls sees thier life in advance. Sometimes they need specific events to occur before they each are born. All souls help each other to learn lessons.
Also You decide what percentage of energy you need to bring with you as the human is is incapable of taking it all. Your remaining energy is left behind and is still learning in the spirit world. That is why when our friends die and go homethey still see us, even though we are still on this planet in human form.

Saraswati

19-06-2006, 17:51

Agree with you entirely. I also believe we can choose to live the same life over and over if we want to, each time as a slightly more evolved soul. As time is an illusion and everything past, present and future is happening now, in a single moment.

No one dies until they have completed what they came here to do and no one who dies has not completed their mission (even if it's just 'to be born').

I believe if you commit suicide you have to face the same trials again, either in the spirit world, or back here on earth, until you learn from those lessons.

Mum2AandJ

19-06-2006, 19:57

Pippy, you just spun me out. That is exactally what I believe too... can't believe how much we agree on, dont come across many people who believe the same things when the beliefs are so different from the many other religions :thumbsup: Not saying I dont respect what any body else believes, In life it is your right to believe what you want to believe!!! And to ask as many people as you can and want about what you want to know, because this lifetime may be short and the next one may be long, you just never know. ;)

Saraswati

19-06-2006, 20:09

Yep, everyone can believe something different if they want. Just as everyone is different, so too is everyone's 'truth' different. Rather than one of us being right and everyone else being wrong, we can all be right! It doesn't matter, because I believe we all find our way back to the 'source' eventually.

It is great to hear from someone who mirrors my beliefs. :yes:
I find it hard to put in words what I believe because it is kinda complicated, so it's nice to chat to someone who gets me!!

Have you, or anyone else, read any of the 'Conversations With God' books? By Neale Walsch (possibly the wrong spelling). And has anyone seen 'What the Bleep Do We Know?' it's a new release on DVD. fantastic.

Sorry to ramble. I am probably killing this thread... :D

~EmsMum~

19-06-2006, 20:10

my theory is **** happens

kymmy

19-06-2006, 20:15

Yep, everyone can believe something different if they want. It doesn't matter, because I believe we all find our way back to the 'source' eventually.

Sorry to ramble. I am probably killing this thread... :D

No, that is what I want. I would like to have discussions about the various and different beliefs that all ppl have.
I agree, that we all came from the one source so we will all return.

And don't worry, if anyone is going to kill this thread it will be me for sure...

Saraswati

19-06-2006, 20:25

thanks fellow thread-killer, that makes me feel better!! :D

Mum2AandJ

21-06-2006, 09:04

ahh you are both thread killers hahahaha
thought i'd better pump some life back into this thread.
This one though is different I must admit, and I dont want anyone to get upset, I was gonna write this one a couple of days ago but had to sit on it for a while seeing this is a mother and baby forum!!!

SIDS:
Lets say the soul is coming back to learn compassion, love and loss of a loved one. One way this happens is losing something very precious to us, like losing a child. We see this many times during our life. More so as we get older.
To learn this lesson, souls, both mother and father and born, get together, to formulate the sequence of events, before they each are born. All souls help each other to learn lessons.
When the mother is born she forgets about the soon to "event" and goes through her life unaware of the future. Unaware of the arrangement she has she has made. She gets married and at the right time becomes pregnant. The baby is born. One day, the mother goes into the bedroom to get the baby, but the baby has died unexpectedly. There was nothing wrong with the baby. The soul, in the baby, was carring out it's part of the arrangement of the lesson.
The mother and all the family went through the whole process of the lesson to be learned. "SIDS" does not have a medical reason for it.

Mister Noodle

21-06-2006, 11:33

So, how many times does everyone else have to relive everything, in order to be extras on the stage of life?

Because that could seriously, badly suck. Nobody goes through a life wherein they (or a loved one) are the only ones suffering. Ergo, people in your system would get dragged through again and again, until the slowest ones in the class finally cotton on.

kymmy

21-06-2006, 12:28

Interesting, Krystalaa :yes:
I don't think we can explain death, especially with miscarriage or babies dying
There is a reason but not that is obvious to us probably

As for living many lives--not sure about that one
I think we only get one chance with a body- I believe a body is a privilege
We may get a second chance but you don't have the blessing of a body

Saraswati

21-06-2006, 13:40

I agree with you Krystalaa (again) and , in answer to Mr Noodle, there are no 'extras' in the drama of life. We are all learning lessons. Eg if I am hit by a car, this has been prearranged between my soul and the soul of the person who hits me. I need whatever lessons I can learn from this accident, and the person who hits me needed to do so to learn whatever lesson is of benefit to their soul.

Every time I have posted something along these lines in a thread, someone instantly writes back "as if I would ever choose to have gone through the awful trauma that i've had in my life" but it is not a conscious choice, or even a subconscious choice, it's a 'soul' choice because we're not living in a physical body to just float through life and experience nothing. How can the soul evolve without first surviving and learning from experiences that some might call 'bad'?

If you truly believe that we are all God (as I do) not just in a metaphorical sense, but in a LITERAL sense, we are ALL ONE, then going through the tough times in life finally makes sense and it is easier to move through these times from a more peaceful place inside oneself. God is all of us experiencing itself subjectively through this physical life. None of us can really hurt each other, because we're all eternal beings. (Needless to say, these are my beliefs only).

It's incredibly difficult to put this across clearly in a brief post like this! :banghead: Sorry if it makes zero sense and sounds like garbage.

kymmy

21-06-2006, 15:08

Pippy, doesn't sound like garbage to me:no:
Especially since its your beliefs - I respect that.

minimonte

25-06-2006, 16:19

I have struggled with my spirituality for a long time as I was raised as a catholic and do not agree with alot of what it promotes or requires may be a better word. But I do believe in a greater being. I think bad things happen to ggod people (as in death) because she has a greater purpose 4 this person. They came and did what they were meant to do and then left as they had somewhere else they needed to do their work. I also believe in Karma (what goes around comes around). I agree life is a series or learning curves and each battle serves to strengthen, teach and push us in a new direction. We have to try and view each experience in a positive light otherwise it would bring us to an end (I know i have struggled with depression, eating disorder my whole life and are trying to be a positive person). I still struggle with faith but lately I have found that I am more at ease as i feel there is something out there that looks out for us, but when it is our time it's our time, it's destiny

PointyHair

26-06-2006, 13:45

I look at natural diseaters as a way of evening out the worlds population. They dont always happen in poorer countries either.

I believe it's more a case of nature being nature and people being people ignoring nature then looking suprised that the flood plain that always flooded, flooded and the volcano that always erupted, erupted and the hurricanes that always blew, blew.

PointyHair

26-06-2006, 13:57

for those of us with healthy children, how can you look at one of their smiles and not believe in god?? how can you not believe when you see them grow, and master new skills every day?? how can you not believe when you feel that wash of love from just one hug??

I look at my smiling healthy child and feel sadness.

A sadness because I can't care for him, because I can't play with him like I used too, and worse because I may not be able to keep a roof over his head.

I've been through traumatic surgery and have now been seriously injured and can't work, yet the bills keep coming in. I spend my day bored out of my mind with morphine flooding my veins so I don't go insane from the pain, yet no doctor can point to a test and say this is the problem and this is what we're going to do to fix it.

I therefore can look to my child and not believe in God.

Mum2AandJ

26-06-2006, 14:34

Thats aweful Pointyhair I hope that they do find the problem and you get better :fingerscrossed: I cant really comment on your financial situation because I dont know the full situation. But if you can find the strength to want to find a solution, you will find one! If you need help, dont be ashamed to ask for it.
There are many means of support out there especially when there is your little one to concider!

Sarak7

13-07-2006, 15:32

God is just a nice thought, something that people would like to believe in but deep down can't so we all question it.
When something bad happens we pray but who 2? We are just desperate to believe that something higher might be there to help us.
If god is so loving and forgiving why the hell are we here on earth and why is there such thing as hell?

It's funny though how a car can be crushed into a ball of metal in a car accident and all of the people in the car die instantly except for one who walks out without a scratch.

It's funny how such a good, caring, loving man can watch his long awaited baby girl be born just to be killed four days later by a drunk driver.

It's funny how little kids die everyday of starvation and disease and they can't do a damn thing about it. But of course wonderous one works in mysterious ways???:confused:

Mister Noodle

13-07-2006, 15:38

Heh, I've always wondered about that.

When a plane goes down in flames, and just one child survives unhurt, people call it a miracle, and proof of God's love. What I want to know is, if we hold that to be the case, what do the horrible agonizing deaths of the other 600 people prove about God?

Chanelc

13-07-2006, 15:38

Interesting question.
I believe God if there is such a thing only gives us what we can handle - and although at the time it seems bad and we can't handle it we find the inner strength and we find the silver lining out the bad situation. Then a bad situation becomes a blessing in disguise..
As they say life is a roller coaster with ups & downs. Can you imagine if everything was perfect and good - we all be really bored!
Any one that is my two cents worth!

gidgeroo

13-07-2006, 15:59

This is a great thread - Ive tried to read most of it and seen some interesting views. Tricky question and I hope my DH doesn't read this or he'll send me to mass on sunday!

I think that the reason humans believe in gods (not just God - as he is quite a modern invention) is that we questioned nature - what was thunder, lightning, the stars, harvests, earthquakes etc - we looked at these things in our environment and asked the question "if we didn't cause this then someone really big did" So we created higher powers to explain everything and to be nice to when we wanted something to happen or not to happen (ie give offerings to the God of the Volcano so it doesn't erupt)

Heaven and Hell were created by us because as human beings we know we are going to die someday and in this life, where we have created constructs such as time, money, work, etc, we need to believe everything we do has some meaning. If we are good we go to heaven and if we are bad we go to hell (we have also invented the concept of good and evil to explain human behaviour and give society limits in which to operate)

The bible is a great story. It gives us some good moral benchmarks, tells us that Jesus died for our sins, describes miracles, talks about life lessons. I don't take it literally and I certainly can't believe that the world was created in 7 days (too much of a science brain for that) What I believe is that strength comes from within us and for many many people God gives them that strength. I have seen people come back from tragedy due to their faith in religion and that is good. I just like to believe that if I am in a crisis I can believe in myself enough to get through it - my spirituality is strong but my beliefs don't lie in organised religion. If anything I look to nature and science to explain the world around me.

kymmy

13-07-2006, 16:10

If god is so loving and forgiving why the hell are we here on earth and why is there such thing as hell?

confused:

To answer this question I would be here for a few weeks. Its complex.
Basically I believe that God has a plan.

I agree with you ChanelC - it is what we can handle and all things good and bad are for our benefit- whether to teach us something or to to open us out for blessings.

gidgeroo, its interesting you say God is a modern invention. I think He is Eternal so I can't agree. But its interesting to hear the many different views.

Keep them coming!

gidgeroo

13-07-2006, 16:26

Hi Kimmy (I love this thread - it's AWESOME!)

I suppose what I mean about God being a modern invention is that before God as we know him came about people believed in lots of gods (ie Greek, Roman, Egyptian Gods) Christianity and Judaism and Islam all decided to adopt one God - God, Jehovah, Allah etc. This, I believe, happened quite recently in human history (2000 odd years is a drop in the chronological ocean for us).

Mister Noodle

13-07-2006, 16:55

I must confess I've never quite understood this concept of dying for someone's sins.

How does that work, exactly? How does one person dying make something another person does any more or less ethical?

Let's try a smaller example, and see if it works: "For I so loved my sister that I hit myself with a brick for her parking tickets."

Does this mean that she doesn't have to pay them? Does this mean that she didn't do anything wrong in the first place? What exactly does it mitigate?

gidgeroo

13-07-2006, 16:58

Basically I believe that God has a plan.

Keep them coming!

If God has a plan then I think he's lost the Allan Key!

kymmy

13-07-2006, 17:00

It isn't anything a human can fathom, is it?
The sacrifice of the Only Begotten for all the human race.

God is greater than us so don't expect to understand it in the least.:no:

kymmy

13-07-2006, 17:01

If God has a plan then I think he's lost the Allan Key!

No, He hasn't lost it He just isn't ready to show us the whole outline!

Ana Gram

13-07-2006, 17:16

Basically I believe that God has a plan.

I think there are a lot of us who don't like being kept in the dark when it comes to plans, which is why there are so many of us who don't believe.

So, we get to find out this plan when we are dead? I would rather not live my whole life sitting on the edge of my seat till I die to find out this plan. Things like that are usually disappointing.

kymmy

13-07-2006, 17:27

I think there are a lot of us who don't like being kept in the dark when it comes to plans, which is why there are so many of us who don't believe.

So, we get to find out this plan when we are dead? I would rather not live my whole life sitting on the edge of my seat till I die to find out this plan. Things like that are usually disappointing.

Very true!
I believe I know the plan, meaning I know where we came from, why we are and where we are going.
Faith is a great thing and it does help some ppl - gosh without it I'd be suicidal.

Saraswati

13-07-2006, 17:53

It isn't anything a human can fathom, is it?
The sacrifice of the Only Begotten for all the human race.

God is greater than us so don't expect to understand it in the least.:no:

I agree the 'whole truth' is not fathomable by the human mind and we can't hope to truly understand the nature of the All That Is (God, whatever). So why then does each religion insist that it has the whole truth (exclusive to that religion only, of course), even though it admits at the same time that most questions are too complicated to answer and it's best to just 'have faith'?

Sorry, I know it's probably off the subject and this topic has been done to death recently anyway!! :D

Mister Noodle

13-07-2006, 19:36

So, let me get this straight.

This guy has a couple of kids, and he sets out a bunch of rules for them, first among them being that they not discover what something being 'against the rules' actually means, or how to tell the difference.

Subsequently, the kids do discover this, so he kicks them out of the house. Furthermore, he decrees that all future children he has shall be kicked out of the house from birth, and what's more will be locked in a dungeon and tortured with fire eventually, because the first two broke the rules.

So, everything chugs along merrily for a number of years, and then he decides that he doesn't really want to be locking people in dungeons and torturing them with fire, because that's just not nice. He tried drowning all but a handful of them at one stage, but this just didn't help.

So, he decides to change his gameplan - but, despite being the one that wrote the rules in the first place, the one that designed and built the fiery dungeon, and the one that arranges to have people thrown in it, he is for some reason unable to just stop doing it.

So he comes up with a cunning plan: he makes a clone of himself, kicks it out of the house, and waits for someone to nail it to a tree. At this point, he throws the clone in the dungeon for three days, scares it with the blowtorch a bit, lets him out for a couple more days to tell the other kids, then takes it home to live with him.

This apparently gives him the power to stop throwing people in the dungeon - but only if they all apologise for everything they ever did, realise how horrible and deserving of punishment they were for being related to the first two kids who learned about the rules, and most importantly, above all else, know that the story about the clone is true, and that because of this, they will be let off. It's no good just thinking it was probably true, and that there's a chance you''ll be let off - you have to have *zero* doubt, right down to the subliminal level - otherwise he has no choice but to throw you in the dungeon.

Oh, and he still kills, maims and deliberately diseases his progeny on a regular basis - but knowing there's some mysterious good reason for this is meant to be both a source of comfort and a necessary part of your most gracious free pardon.

Now pardon my heathen naievete, but... seriously, WTF?

Tam-I-Am

13-07-2006, 20:07

I know you didn't really mean that to be funny - but that's HILARIOUS, Mr N! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Saraswati

13-07-2006, 20:29

I agree with you Mr Noodle, the traditional interpretation of the bible makes no sense. I have my own completely different take on the message in the bible.... but I'm sure you could come up with an equally hilarious analogy for my interpretation!

I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts, you're most eloquent. :D

Mister Noodle

13-07-2006, 21:57

I know you didn't really mean that to be funny - but that's HILARIOUS, Mr N! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Heh, are you a blackadder fan, by any chance?

I just have this image of the Archangel Baldrick...

"Don't worry my Lord... I have a Cunning Plan!"

Tam-I-Am

13-07-2006, 22:19

I am.....Not that I've seen a heap of Blackadder - but i LOVE what I have seen. I'm going to print off your answer and show it to my mum - I know that she will truely appreciate it! Again - :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

kymmy

14-07-2006, 10:04

I agree the 'whole truth' is not fathomable by the human mind and we can't hope to truly understand the nature of the All That Is (God, whatever).

So why then does each religion insist that it has the whole truth (exclusive to that religion only, of course), even though it admits at the same time that most questions are too complicated to answer and it's best to just 'have faith'?

That is a good point. I have no faith in a religion which forbids ppl from asking questions and to have blind faith.
Think about this - do you expect a child to obey you when you don't give reason?
Do you ignore their questions and tell them 'because I said so'?
I would like to think God (Our Heavenly Father) wants us to ask questions and when we are ready He will give us answers (yes that means putting faith in Him). James 1:5

As for religions believing they have the truth, I believe that most have some truths just not the whole truth, due to the apostacy.

Karizma

24-07-2006, 09:41

the traditional interpretation of the bible makes no sense. I have my own completely different take on the message in the bible
:D

I agree with you Pippy... I dont believe the bible is the words of god or his followers of his time. As for it being said that a whole heap of men saying they got the messages fgrom god :confused: can't say I believe it.
The only manuscripts ever found that they believe were to be actually written by god, were the Dead Sea Scrolls (now known as the red sea scrolls) Contradict everything in the bible. The main thing that sticks in my head is that it says, you do not need to go to a certain place or spot to talk to me as i am everywhere. If you split the wood I am in there, If you break a stone I am in there, as I am all around you. I can hear you no matter where you are. So church is a big ?? for me

The thing that really bugs me is the religions that teach about god by putting the fear of god into them, rather than the love and faith of god. I have spent countless hours at my frount door arguing the point with preachers... I beleive that there is another life after this one, even reincarnation, etc... but I dont follow the bible or confess etc...
I believe that there are powerful happenings all around us, such as our guides. People we meet etc... I dont believe every second of our life is planned, but I do believe that we cross paths with people that we are ment to. I dont believe that angels actually come down to earth, I believe that the guides present as angles as we wouldnt recignise them in thier true form. ok... thats enough for now before i bore you :ecomcity: :ecomcity:

kymmy

24-07-2006, 09:46

you do not need to go to a certain place or spot to talk to me as i am everywhere. If you split the wood I am in there, If you break a stone I am in there, as I am all around you. I can hear you no matter where you are.

I so agree. God is all. He doesn't just live at church.
You can pray at any time and you should pray always i think.
I believe God is our Heavenly Father so He loves us and wants us to speak with Him.

Karizma

24-07-2006, 09:53

I am curious then what makes you go to church every sunday??? Like what are the reasons you go for?? What do you take out of it?? Do you believe you are carrying out what god intended?? Do you believe it will save you from going to hell if you religiously attend every Sunday???

Tea Lady

24-07-2006, 11:34

Mister Noodle

24-07-2006, 11:35

Hey, anything to keep the conversation going :)

Karizma

24-07-2006, 11:48

I'd be happy to explain how I understand it ............. if you're actually interested ;)

Please do this convo is wicked... love it :thumbsup:

Garysobers

24-07-2006, 14:56

The reason why i go to church is to show my commitment to the savior by taking the ordinances(bread an water or wine) but god is all around us not only at church by going to church you are showing your commimment and that is the religous side of formal practice however god lives everywhere and that you can worship him at your own conveniance but if you become baptize you are vowing to renew that commitment if you chose to follow through:)

kymmy

24-07-2006, 16:20

I am curious then what makes you go to church every sunday??? For me its to teach the lil ones. I should get there earlier for Sacrament......

Like what are the reasons you go for?? To remember the sacrifice.

What do you take out of it?? I teach so i hope I gain the blessings from that.

Do you believe you are carrying out what god intended?? Maybe...I prefer to think my family is what I meant to do on Earth.

Do you believe it will save you from going to hell if you religiously attend every Sunday??? Not at all. It isn't just about going to church. Knowlege is one thing - putting it into practice is more important. To me if I am sick, asleep or have family committments then I wont go to church.
Oh and I don't believe ppl who don't go to church will go to Hell
and ppl who go to church go to Heaven.
There is more to it than that for me.

Tea Lady

25-07-2006, 13:07

Hmmm, unfortunately I don't have time to think about posts just to keep the conversation going (I wish I did but someone has to do the housework!:rolleyes: ). I will make time if people are interested in the topic though, so maybe another time hey? :)

kymmy

25-07-2006, 13:21

Personally, Tea Lady I am interested in your thoughts and beliefs.:yes:

Saraswati

25-07-2006, 14:34

the Dead Sea Scrolls (now known as the red sea scrolls) Contradict everything in the bible. The main thing that sticks in my head is that it says, you do not need to go to a certain place or spot to talk to me as i am everywhere. If you split the wood I am in there, If you break a stone I am in there, as I am all around you. I can hear you no matter where you are. So church is a big ??:

To further expand on the "God is everywhere" thing, to me it is like a fish swimming in the ocean. There is no need for the fish to believe in water. Water is not out there somewhere, the fish is swimming in it - there is nothing else.

An even better metaphor is that God is the ocean and we are all waves of varying sizes. There is no ocean without the waves, no waves without the ocean. THEY ARE ONE. God is not just 'everywhere', God is the 'all that is'. Nothing is NOT God. Therefore, God can't ever judge, condemn, be pleased or displeased, be male or female etc because none of us are separate from God. There is nothing else! In fact, WE are all God experiencing ourselves as separate identities (which is an illusion 'Maya'). The goal is to evolve and finally realise our true nature as pure divinity and our 'oneness' with All That Is.. and meditation goes a long way to helping us reach that goal.
(Goes without saying these are my beliefs only).

kymmy

25-07-2006, 17:07

I agree and I like your wording Pippy.
I think God is all.
He has all power.
These are my beliefs (what else would they be)
I believe that God created all so it makes sense that He is in all.

Mister Noodle

25-07-2006, 17:09

I made coffee. I sure hope I'm not in it.

Karizma

25-07-2006, 18:53

Tea Lady I defiantely want to hear what you think. Not just to keep the conversation going, because I want to hear your point of view:thumbsup:

Saraswati

27-07-2006, 15:55

I made coffee. I sure hope I'm not in it.

I believe YOU ARE the coffee. I'm serious about this 'all that is' theory. But when I say 'you' i'm not talking about your ever-thinking, analysing brain. You are that too, but no more or less than anything else. Ahhh..gotta love quantum physics. Extremely difficult to explain unless you are already familiar with the concepts.

The word God gives me the poos because it immediately conjures up an image of some separate being of power. I prefer to think of an all-pervading energy (love) - there is nothing that it's not - yes even the stuff we judge as evil because the All That Is can't judge. Energy doesn't judge. It just IS.

Mister Noodle

27-07-2006, 16:23

Ah. You're a Deist. Gotcha.

The thing is, this leads you straight into a bit of an epistemological question:

If 'god' is just a synonym for 'everything', then really, why do we need a separate name for it?

Unless you link two separate, different concepts together, all you're doing by equating two things is creating synonyms - giving the appearance of extra meaning where none exists.

For example.

1: My cheese sandwich is part of God. (Spooky.)
2: God is Everything. (fairnough)
3: Everything is a word meaning "all objects that exist". (I doubt we disagree here)
4: Thus, by (1) you are actually claiming "My cheese sandwich is one of the objects that exist".

Which... really isn't saying a lot, when you think about it.

Are you proposing some kind of awareness or identity that exists as a sort of emergent property of all things that exist? Are we God's brain cells, in other words?

If so, we're back to proposing a separate entity again: isn't your mind a separate "thing" from the individual neurons in your skull? Wouldn't this Mind be similarly separate from its component parts?

And of course, if all things are a part of God, where does evil fit in? Should we fight it, or is it an essential part of God? If we should fight it, does that mean that God is imperfect and in need of improvement?

Mister Noodle

27-07-2006, 16:26

(and I'm quite familiar with a fair number of the concepts of quantum physics - explain away!)

kymmy

27-07-2006, 17:06

And of course, if all things are a part of God, where does evil fit in? Should we fight it, or is it an essential part of God? If we should fight it, does that mean that God is imperfect and in need of improvement?

God has all power imo. So that would mean God has power over evil. I don't believe God and Satan are equal. I believe God gives power to Satan to give trial to others and to tempt them. So we should fight evil imo. God is perfect and has a plan as I have mentioned b4!:D No need to improve on perfection.
Again this is what I believe.

Karizma

27-07-2006, 17:30

Satan: a different topic. Or shall we say Lucifer!
Lucifer was one of gods angles, and is who the call the fallen angel.
As far as Genesis the souls used to "sleep" not go to heaven, then lucifer questioned God about the souls not coming to heaven back to be with him. God told him that he had to have faith in gods decisions. So lucifer kept asking and god sent him to the earth to walk the earth as a human. He did this and he met a girl and they copulated and god told him he had forsaken him and was to be banished to the earth. Lucifer called and prayed to god for years, then god came back and said he would give him one more chance, if he could go to where the souls were and still find 20 people who still believed in and loved god.

So Lucifer did and it took him ages the sorrow and dispair was unbareable but finally came to a group that were all together that had hope and love for god, so he took back the 20 to god, and God took in the 20. Then Lucifer begged god to allow the many many more he had seen there to come into heaven, so god excepted but told Lucifer it was on the condition that only the good souls come and was to take in the souls that did not believe and to teach them about god and the love of god, and when they are ready they will be accepted into heaven.

So Lucifer was given hell his place to do this. And this is why in the new testament the souls now go to heaven and not just to sleep..

In all reality you do not have to believe what i say, but it is what i believe. Satan has always been made out the bad one. Why would god have Lucifer as his right hand man for so long, if Lucifer was soo evil then god would have never had him so close to himself. :D

kymmy

27-07-2006, 17:39

I have only heard that from you Karizma and I know you have very diff beliefs to others as do I.
May I share my beliefs about Lucifer?
Too bad I will!

I believe we are all brothers and sisters and that means Lucifer is my brother too.
I believe in the Council in Heaven.
This was when Lucifer/Satan and Jesus were making suggestions on the plan of salvation. Satan wanted to force everyone to follow the plan whereas Jesus wanted ppl to have the choice. Satan wanted the glory so he was banished. This was before the creation of the World. And we all were given the choice - 2/3 chose to come to Earth (that would be us) and 1/3 followed Lucifer and they are all fallen angels (they are not blessed with bodies) They have the job of making our lives difficult basically. But I know I have more power as I have the privilege of a body.

It goes without saying these are my beliefs.

Karizma

27-07-2006, 17:50

ok can I ask u then??? What do you believe when it comes to why the souls didnt go to heaven until the new testament?? What are your beliefs t why and everything???

Saraswati

27-07-2006, 18:45

[QUOTE=Mister Noodle]Ah. You're a Deist. Gotcha.

QUOTE]

I had no idea what a Deist is (shows how much i know) but having just researched the definition, I would say that no, i'm not a Deist. I agree with elements of Deism but i really hate labels, they're not only useless but often inflammatory and in any case I think it's dangerous to have one's beliefs carved in stone. Far be it for me to say I have the answers. I don't... and while I don't believe any religion has it 100% correct, I don't think any of them are 100% wrong either. I don't want to label myself a Christian or a Buddhist (or a Buddhist Christian) but I do think there's a lot to be gained from reading all sorts of sacred texts like the Bhagavad Gita, the Bible.. gnostic bibles. etc It's just the interpretation that counts - and who's to say who has the correct interpretation? There's no right or wrong.

It's hard to define something when one's beliefs are so fluid. Much easier to label oneself in some way and then just regurgitate whatever that particular group believes. But I can't do that because I don't think the human mind is capable of fully understanding the ultimate truth, nor do I think it matters. All we have to do is know that we are love, that we are not separate from each other (again, quantum physics) and if that realisation is profound enough, all pain disappears.

I like Ben Lee's single "we are all in this together". The lyrics sum it up nicely for me. Go watch 'what the bleep do we know' (on DVD) and tell me what you think.

I'll try to find time to answer your specific questions Mr N. but right now I am hungry. Priorities!! :D

Karizma

27-07-2006, 18:54

Saraswati

27-07-2006, 18:55

Karizma - I like your version of the story of Lucifer. At the moment I don't believe in satan at all... nor do I believe souls ever just 'slept' after death... but where did you discover this story? it's interesting and certainly more uplifting than the usual version of events!!

Saraswati

27-07-2006, 18:57

Definition of Diest:
The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

For anyone who didnt know either as i didnt. And have to say i dont think that Pippy is one :no: :laughing:

Ha ha! No, i'm not that.

The definition I found on google said:
"One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason.
This common sense approach to God and a spiritual philosophy can not only bring a lasting profound sense of peace and happiness to the individual, but it also has the potential to go light years in eradicating religious fear, superstition and violence."

Karizma

27-07-2006, 19:47

... but where did you discover this story? it's interesting and certainly more uplifting than the usual version of events!!

To be honest I cant remember the name of the book. I got it off a friend years ago and he was a priest and he had alot of different passages and info to back it up so yeah...There are alot of people who believe in it too... and supposibly alot of these people actually believe he is a 'god' just as what we believe the 'god' to be and not just an angel. I think It is the the only thing I have read that makes the most sence, I personally wouldnt go as far to say he is a 'god' but i dont believe he is evil and manipulating as it is made out.:D

Mister Noodle

27-07-2006, 20:30

Hmm, the definition of Deist I've always come across is pretty much what Pippy described - God *being* the universe.

Saraswati

27-07-2006, 21:26

Hmm, the definition of Deist I've always come across is pretty much what Pippy described - God *being* the universe.

The Deists don't believe any of the miraculous stories in the bible (because their beliefs are based on common sense) whereas I believe the stories but I interpret them differently. Eg the Christians say Jesus is the son of God and therefore had the power to walk on water. I say, God is All That Is and Jesus was a fully evolved, fully enlightened being - he not only knew intellectually that God is All That Is, he experienced this truth as reality. Anyone who realises this truth and becomes enlightened (as Jesus, Buddha, Krishna did), taps into this ability that we ALL have to BE divine and therefore can manipulate the energies around himself/herself performing what we call miracles.

Kinda like lucid dreaming. When you wake up within a dream and know that you're dreaming, you have the power to do ANYTHING.
Obviously enlightenment is no small task and it takes many thousands of lifetimes to achieve.... and my description of enlightenment is completely inadequate!!!

Karizma

27-07-2006, 22:07

I havnt heard that one before Pippy... Interesting...
Question then. If he was so to speak a being that has tapped into his ability, then what do you think of the story of the star to bethlehem?
My personal thoughts on that is that it was a bedtime story. Maybe alot of stories were bedtime stories :detective: hehe......

Saraswati

28-07-2006, 10:44

Do you mean the star that led the shepherds to baby Jesus? Yep, could well be a fairy tale! Or maybe it was an angel? Your guess is as good as mine.

kymmy

28-07-2006, 12:53

Question ?
Do you believe that you have the potential to be a God or divine or are you already perfect?

According to the definitions given of deist then I believe I am one as I believe in common sense and logic. Though my beliefs aren't easily defined.

kymmy

28-07-2006, 12:59

ok can I ask u then??? What do you believe when it comes to why the souls didnt go to heaven until the new testament?? What are your beliefs t why and everything???

Which souls? The ones before Jesus ascended, you mean?
I believe in a Spirit World which is our home.
People say that is like limbo, but I believe time was created for man.
Meaning that time is nothing as a spirit.
Its only as a body we would feel like we are waiting.

Sorry if that doesn't make sense, but I guess essays couldn't even explain my beliefs in full.

Saraswati

28-07-2006, 13:52

Question ?
Do you believe that you have the potential to be a God or divine or are you already perfect?

I certainly don't think that me, this mind, this ego is anywhere near perfect (noooo way!) but I believe the divine, perfect spark is within each one of us just waiting to be expressed and fully realised. It's love.

Say, if you imagine the All That Is as the sun and every ray of sunshine is indeed part of the sun (not separate even though it's perceived as such) and we are all rays. And everything around us is a ray.

I think that the All That Is deliberately separated itself into this world, these separate beings (us) / animals / everything - so that it could experience itself subjectively. Experience love subjectively. We ultimately all end up back merged with the Is.

Saraswati

28-07-2006, 13:55

Which souls? The ones before Jesus ascended, you mean?
I believe in a Spirit World which is our home.
People say that is like limbo, but I believe time was created for man.
Meaning that time is nothing as a spirit.
Its only as a body we would feel like we are waiting.

Sorry if that doesn't make sense, but I guess essays couldn't even explain my beliefs in full.

Yeah, I can understand that. Time disappears once the soul leaves the body... which means that when we die we don't even need to miss those we leave behind. Because all time exists at once in the afterlife you will meet those you left behind instantly. Oh dear, more quantum physics. :eek:

I agree Kymmy - essays can't begin to explain!!!

Karizma

28-07-2006, 15:00

Which souls? The ones before Jesus ascended, you mean?
full.

In the bible Souls that had passed over, i.e-died. Just went to sleep, they didnt actually go to heaven until later.

Saraswati

28-07-2006, 16:52

If 'god' is just a synonym for 'everything', then really, why do we need a separate name for it?

Unless you link two separate, different concepts together, all you're doing by equating two things is creating synonyms - giving the appearance of extra meaning where none exists.

For example.

1: My cheese sandwich is part of God. (Spooky.)
2: God is Everything. (fairnough)
3: Everything is a word meaning "all objects that exist". (I doubt we disagree here)
4: Thus, by (1) you are actually claiming "My cheese sandwich is one of the objects that exist".

Which... really isn't saying a lot, when you think about it.

Are you proposing some kind of awareness or identity that exists as a sort of emergent property of all things that exist? Are we God's brain cells, in other words?

If so, we're back to proposing a separate entity again: isn't your mind a separate "thing" from the individual neurons in your skull? Wouldn't this Mind be similarly separate from its component parts?

And of course, if all things are a part of God, where does evil fit in? Should we fight it, or is it an essential part of God? If we should fight it, does that mean that God is imperfect and in need of improvement?

OK I am going to try and answer your questions Mr N but it's all off the top of my head and is unlikely to make much sense, so forgive me. Wish I was an atheist - so much easier to explain and debunk alternative arguments!

Firstly, I don't believe that we do need a separate name for God. If I am ever in the mood to pray I deliberately use random nouns when addressing the All That Is. Or I just contemplate the 'universal energy' or the 'All That Is'.

More answers:
1. I'm not proposing an awareness or identity that exists... in fact i am desperately trying to get away from the term 'identity' in general. it's our precious identities (egos etc) that keep us away from the divine ISness. what I am picturing, if our senses were keen enough to see more than just 3 dimensional material objects, is an all-pervading brilliantly bright light or energy whose nature can only be described as unimaginable bliss/love. No brain cells and definitely no 'thought' involved.

2. This energy is separate from nothing. Is the flour separate from the bread? No, it IS the bread. Gees, I am really starting to scrape the bottom of the metaphor barrell here.

3. So going with my theory, if we in fact ARE the All That Is in sleep walker mode (ie we have forgotten our true 'Buddha' nature or 'Christ light') then evil is merely the actions of those of us who are more deeply asleep... or less evolved. The more awareness one has of his/her divine nature, the more he/she will behave divinely. On the one hand, there's no need to fight evil if you don't wish to - after all, the All That Is not a thinking, judgemental old guy in the sky - and the notion of hell makes no sense.
On the other hand, if we are aware of our divinity then we inevitably strive to be the best version of ourselves we can be and this means promoting love and combating the opposite of love. More the point, once we have even a basic understanding that none of us are separate from each other, causing each other pain becomes utterly illogical. I hurt you = I hurt myself.

God's not in need of improvement (but i hate that sentence because it makes God sound like a separate being again), we humans just need to wake up to who we really are. Oh dear, it looks like i'm on my soap box. :rolleyes:

What I admire about you Mr Noodle is that you're an atheist which means you are a moral person of good conscience JUST BECAUSE. Very cool. Probably means you are more spiritually evolved than the lot of us and were a Tibetan monk in a past life. :D

Sorry for the gigantic post!!