trying to murder bub!

[Mum&bubs]

I just heard on the news about that woman that tried to suffacate (spelling?) her 3 month old daughter. :eek: I was shocked. Apparently she was suffering from post natal depression & was trying to stop her daughter from crying. Still i dont see it as an excuse for hurting your own child. There is help out there! Poor little girl!

[the_queen]

I predict this thread will become another one of those "judgemental" threads, where we all end up judging each other for judging other mothers, and judging each other for judging other people who judge other mothers .....

My 2cents worth: There needs to be more mental health workers and resources in this country. I hope this woman gets the help she needs. There but for the grace of God go I.

[Cinta]

Hey Krissy!

I agree that is so awful!! :eek:

So by the sounds of your post, it sounds as though the baby didnt die right? I hope the bubs is ok...Did someone come home in time or how did they find out she tried to do this? Did she admit it?

I really hope she gets help ASAP. She should have seeked help long before her problem became this bad. But then again ive never been in her situation...

Poor little bubby :(

[Mum&bubs]

She put a pillow over the babies face then left her for 15minutes then she called an ambulance saying her baby isnt breathing & is blue in the face & that she found a pillow on her face. The ambo's tried for half an hour to help her & she did survive thank god!

[Taylors_mum]

Thats horrible.

I cant see how anyone would want to harm a baby like that. I personally would risk my life for my DD and would never do or let anyone hurt her.

I understand some mums suffer from PND but their is help out there.

The best advice i was given of a friend that suffered PND was a "baby has never died from crying so if you are getting stressed put the baby down close the door and chill out for 5 mins. Then once you feel a bit calmer go back to the baby and try and work out what he/she is crying for"

[MumsieMel]

So sad :crying:

Do not make this thread a "The Mother did it!" please! :no:

[mum33]

as far as i understand it, when mothers do things to their children when they have pnd, its something they cannot help. i wouldnt judge them so harshly do u really think anyone in their right mind would mean to harm their child. i know there are some sick people out there but i doubt she is one of them. i think you should give her a break. there is too much of a stigma on mental illness in this country. there needs to be more help for women that suffer from severe pnd.

[Mum&bubs]

I do feel bad for the mum but i just wished she got the help she needed sooner. Hopefully she gets it now.

[Tam-I-Am]

I understand some mums suffer from PND but their is help out there.

Firstly - absolutely agree with Queenie

Second - You don't know the extent, type or severity of the PND. You don't know if it was postnatal psychosis or not. You don't know if this poor woman has any social supports, or if she knew about services available, or if she felt like she couldn't reach out. You just don't know (neither do I for that matter).

Third - how like the media to latch onto a story and condemn a woman ("Bad mother. Bad, bad mother") without actually reporting what was really going on for this woman

Fourth - Even if most people understand that there is this illness called PND - they have very little understanding of what it is, or how bad it can get.

Basically - as Queen said - there but for the grace of god go I. Therefore, I will not judge this woman, and I encourage the rest of you to think about what you write here - there are many many mums on this forum who have had, or do have PND, and may have even had thoughts about doing something like this. You may not understand it, fine - you don't need to judge it though.

[Mum&bubs]

and to add on to that im glad the baby did survive its just sad something like this had to happen before she got help.

[rynosmum]

PND is often not something that is simple to diagnose and it can come in so many forms.

Of course it is tragic that a child was exposed to such a terrible thing. It is also tragic that we don't have more support for mums with PND.

Don't judge the mum, just feel blessed that you have never felt pushed to the edge like she must have been.

[caitsmum]

Apparently she was suffering from post natal depression & was trying to stop her daughter from crying. Still i dont see it as an excuse for hurting your own child.


How sad that this thread need to be started in such a way. Thoughts and actions of harming the baby are actual indicators of severe postnatal depression/psychosis.

I don't ever think I could understand how horrible it would be to go through and that poor mother now has to live with that for the rest of her life as well as being judged in the media and now by ignorant members of the wider community. Shame on the media for even reporting it in such a manner. Could the media instead of run a story about recent reasearch into PND and how women can gain help.

[aggero]

PND is often not something that is simple to diagnose and it can come in so many forms.

Of course it is tragic that a child was exposed to such a terrible thing. It is also tragic that we don't have more support for mums with PND.

Don't judge the mum, just feel blessed that you have never felt pushed to the edge like she must have been.

Totally agree Rynosmum.

[veve]

Of course it is tragic that a child was exposed to such a terrible thing. It is also tragic that we don't have more support for mums with PND.

Don't judge the mum, just feel blessed that you have never felt pushed to the edge like she must have been.

I totally agree...

I dont know the situation... but I dont think i would have coped through the first few months without my DH (I know many women do... I just dont know if I could have)... I actually said to my DH one night .. I totally understand how a mum could just snap.. I honestly reached that point... (I haven't had PND.. I cant not possibly pretend what that mum was feeling.. )

I just think it is sad that she couldn't talk to someone about it.. and that no one saw any warning signs :(

[OscarTheGrouch]

I think it's a really sad situation all round. PND is a vicious thing at times. I only hope that she gets the help and support she needs. I hope the little girl gets the love and happiness she deserves. Unfortunately we still live in a society where at times depression is swept under the carpet. We can only hope that drastic changes to the mental health system happen and not just get talked about by bureaucrats.

[Blessed Mum]

My heart goes out to this mum & her bubby. I truly help there will be a happy ending for them both eventually.

[BiNdI86]

I really feel for this poor mum.

They did say on the news that she had been in and out of hospital before for PND. I just hope they can help her.

I think it's horrable to see reporters make her out to be the 'bad guy'.
By seeing the story on the news, we only know a fraction of what ACTUALLY went on. JMO

[natasha]

One of my cousins in the UK (who I haven't spoken to in years) has actually tried to drown her little boy. He was in the bath tub when he was around 6 months old and he wouldn't stop screaming. It was her first child and she was young, about 17 I think. She lived ,and still lives on a crummy council estate in an area where there is no help for mums with PND. The area is run down, forgotten about and things like this happen all the time.
Thank God my auntie (her mum) came into the bathroom and saw what she was doing. She was holding his head under the water to stop him from screaming. My auntie screamed at her to stop and my cousin recoiled as though she hadn't known what she was doing.
Now you would think social services would have taken this baby from her until she got the help she needed to deal with her problems, or at least they could have helped. No, they did jack ****. I rang them secretly a number of times and reported her. They didn't do a thing. She went to the docs and they told her to go for a walk when she feels angry!:confused: That was it, that was all they said!! She now has 3 more children to 3 different dads, drinks every night, she lives in the worst unheigenic conditions and yet social services still do not step in and help, or the docs or anyone! there is just no help from any where. And who's to say she won't seriously harm one of her children one day. She belts them on a daily basis because she cant control them. She's just a kid herself.

No help from anywhere. It's just so sad.

[bub7]

I heard the story to on the news tonight. yeah it is bad and very devestating:(
but i had a friend who went through PND nd she ended up in hospital with it as she suffered rather bad, It is sad as she did not seek help before something bad happened but she may have been in denial (spelling? sorry) as was my friend, but lucky we were all about to see it before she done ne thing to harm herslef or the baby but now that she has been through it all and gotton the help that she needed she is a great lil mum, So fingers crossed that all works out in the end for the poor lady nd her precious lil bub :thumbsup: :hugs:

[SamanthaJane]

I feel sorry for both the mother and the child:(

I cant imagine what she must be going through:(

But thank god the baby is okay!!

My heart truly goes out to both of them:hugs:

[Angelmist♥]

I just heard on the news about that woman that tried to suffacate (spelling?) her 3 month old daughter. :eek: I was shocked. Apparently she was suffering from post natal depression & was trying to stop her daughter from crying. Still i dont see it as an excuse for hurting your own child. There is help out there! Poor little girl!

Ok, first of all if you have never had PND than you cannot judge this woman.As someone who has had both undiagnosed and diagnosed PND, I find this post very upsetting.Actually it does give her an excuse, not that I agree with what she did, no way but I can guarantee you NO mother wants to suffocate their baby.

I have never once had thoughts about harming my children (thank GOD) but I did have thought about harming myself which in a sense is the same thing.Pnd takes over....No questions asked.You have no control over your thoughts or emotions and they can pop up at anytime.

Yes there is help out there, actually quite alot of it, if you know where to look...Hmm lucky for me I did 3rd baby around.A friend of mine only got help now (18months after the birth of her first child) because I told her my story.Apparently she had quite alot of the same thoughts/symptoms if you like but thought it was how a normal mum felt:no:

Please, please just give a thought to her and how she will feel when she starts to recover and realises what she has done.

[SassyMummy]

I didn't suffer from post natal depression. Or maybe I did. There have been times when I felt SO ANGRY I would think negatively towards my daughther. Luckily i never acted on my thoughts but I still THOUGHT about it.

While you can sit around and say, "There is help out there," you have to know that you NEED help in order to seek it. You also have to somehow feel confident enough to explain how you feel to someone without worrying that they'll take your baby away or that they'll lock you up or whatever. And, since some women suffering PND have such negative feelings towards their babies, but at the same time love them, it must be SO HARD for them to search for someone to tell their problems to. Even then, that doesn't guarantee that the person they confide in will help them in any way.

I never told ANYONE that I was ever angry with DD because I worried that everyone would label me as a bad mother and do their best to take DD off of me. I never HURT her, but I worried people would think that I had and was lying about it. I also didn't trust my doctor who seemed to judge me from day 1 of my pregnancy (for being a young un-wed parent).

I think the problem is, while there IS help out there, many women don't know when or where to look, or worry that if they do confess, they will be judged and labelled negatively. Perhaps it's because depression is such a taboo and "wrong" thing according to society.

[reAllytee]

I had a very hard first 3 months with Boof.
I often had bad thoughts & luckily i was strong enough to walk away. He cried nearly all day & nite often only settling for DP.
The first month though i was lucky to have DP & his support as pretty much every nite i would end up in bed crying & saying for him to take Boof away & that i didnt want him anymore.
It took me a long time to bond with him.
Im also lucky to have the support of my aunty who knows how i feel due to my cousin, her third son screaming all day & nite so even now when i have my bad days she is the one who knows exactly how i feel as no-one else does.
If you havent experienced pnd or had a hard child to cope with then sometimes you dont get it.
I just wish our mental health system was up to scratch.
As always Queenie & Rynosmum the great voices of reason :yelclap:

[our little treasures]

i FEEL FOR THE BABY AND THE MUMMY!! I will never understand how people hurt their babies or children and this is because I don't have an illness! MOTHERS are so judmental and if we admit we are having difficulties then other mothers say that we are horrible etc. I have done this myself.

These days we don't have aunts and granparents willing to help out, we have the added burden of having to be super mum work, clean and be mum. Years ago there was always someone to help out even living at the house, women use to cope by numbing their problems with drugs such as valium and alcohol....

I also judge other mums and have only now realised how we as mothers treat each other. This mummy needs help to help her deal with her baby, that would be the best thing. Taking the child off her won't change what happened and won't stop her doing it to a new baby!

I don't think there is a mother out there who would willing admit they are failing to be the perfect mother which is what we all want to be!!

Thank god she called the ambo's!

[our little treasures]

Allyoo I just read your post and my dd was the same!! DD screamed all night and day and just wouldn't stop!! I spent hours rocking singing and holding her! She would get up at 1am and then not sleep until 6am often!! While I never had thoughts to hurt her (thank god) I did feel exhausted and stressed and very emotional!! I would scream at my dh to get the build up out of me, lol! Often I would ring him at work yell at him for something minor then hang up feeling relieved!! That was and is the way I deal with stress!!

[reAllytee]

I think i cried & screamed at empty rooms all times of the day lol.
I even sat one day with Boof in his rocker screaming because i knew he wasnt hungry, nor did he need a bum change & i had even tried to bath him to calm him down which only made it worse. I cried till i was almost sick i just wished he couldve told me what to do to make him happy.
Then you have everyone telling you all will be fine .... Yeah thats great that is when your a complete wreck.
I still have days where i wonder whether what im doing is right.
Luckily i now have a little more experience in knowing what he is wanting & he can sorta help me being older but the stress is still there at times.
Sometimes instinct isnt available.
Wish it were sold in stores though !

[bronny-jane]

poor lady, i had pnd, and was wrecked, it was the worse thing i have ever been through, my last dd would just cry and cry all day and night, it was horrible, and other peoples comments dont help either. my mum would say, well i didnt have time for pnd....and i would see it as an attack on me, or even comments from strangers got to me.

i had flashes in my mind of hurting my dd's, i guess the difference is that i knew i would never harm my dd's, i love them, so then i started to turn on myself.

i hope this lady gets help, its such a bad situation, and im glad her babys ok, because even though she did this, im sure she loves her with all her heart.:(

[pestiferous]

Well now i don't mind being the one that puts my head in the guillotine here.

Can someone explain to me how an entire thread over the attempted murder of a child can show complete understanding and acceptance based soley on the assumption of PND.

Yet a certain other thread which includes the same act is over run by complete disgust.

Yes there are minor differences in the scenarios (for one we KNOW illness is a contributing factor in the other thread, here we do not) but the act itself is the same no matter who it is committed by or what illness contributed to it's occurance!

PND is an illness, so is alchoholism and drug dependency. PND may have less obvious signs than alchohol or drug induced psychosis but it IS more accepted, less severe and easier to treat.

Who's place is it to decide which illness deserves compassion and which does not?

I've had four children, the first at a time when PND was still considered by most to be a load of you know what. We have all tolerated months or years of sleep deprivation, changing hormone levels, night long screaming that makes us wonder if we can really take anymore.

But do we 'half' sufficate our children to gain attention?

no?

Why not ?

Because our love for the child is greater than our need to be 'free' of the stress.

This particular mother harmed her child to gain attention, this IS her actual defence! not just my opinion of the situation.

This is NOT a symptom of PND. For PND to be a factor she would have had to of lost control, in which case the child would be dead. The fact that she stopped then called 00 pretending to care shows it was a planned and calculated selfish act

She COULD have called any number of helplines,
taken the child to a clinic or hospital or friend or whatever,
she could have called 000 and told them she wanted to harm her child now that would have given her all the help and attention she needed but did she?

NO she knowingly put her own feelings before the safety of her child and calculated a way to gain maxmum attention without putting herself at risk.

Now what would have happened if no-one had realised the pillow was placed deliberately? would the abuse continue everytime she felt alone?


Another thought, it is munchousen syndrome (sp?) that includes the harm of children not pnd.

[bronny-jane]

Another thought, it is munchousen syndrome (sp?) that includes the harm of children not pnd.

i was thinking this too..:eek:

[Angelmist♥]

http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/story/0,20797,19216665-3102,00.html

For a start.....Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy is when a mother harms her child for attention yes.

I've just searched for anything saying this mother in question just wanted attention and can't find anything.

Pestiferous- Don't take this personally, but I don't even know where to start with your post.:(

[pestiferous]

[I've just searched for anything saying this mother in question just wanted attention and can't find anything.

Pestiferous- Don't take this personally, but I don't even know where to start with your post.:(

Did you try reading your own link?


"Simon Hamlyn-Harris said the woman's actions were a cry for help and she never intended to kill her child.


The woman told police she never meant to kill the baby;she just wanted her to stop crying and go to sleep.She also told police that she was depressed and needed help but was too scared to ask for it.

We can argue semantics till the cows come home. cry for attention or cry for help, She wanted to be noticed and chose to harm her child to do so.

There is NO excuse for child abuse.


Now, just because she was medicated for PND with her first child, does not automatically mean she actually suffered the condition with this child.

Even if she did suffer PND:

By the account shown in your own link this was clearly NOT


an uncontrollable urge,
temporary insanity
or an action carried out in the heat of the moment.


(As you would expect in a PND related crime.)

This was a calculated and considered attack on an innocent child. IF her PND had pushed her over that line that allows us to know right from wrong this child would have been dead.

Did she put her own wants before the welfare of her child. YES

Did she know she was harming her child. YES

Did she know what she was doing was wrong YES

Should she be treated like any other child abuser YES

why? because if she is not and we allow her PND defence then we must in all fairness accept ALL illnesses as a defence for child abuse including alchoholism and drug abuse.

It has already been proven in that other thread that alchoholism is considered no excuse for child abuse, Why is PND any dfferent when they are both medically proven illnesses?

[reAllytee]

It was a cry for help in that she needed help what about that dont you understand ?
Many people who suffer depression attempt suicide or cut themselves in an attempt to gain attention its the same thing.
Its often these sorts of measures that people have to turn to get help.
Because actually causing harm is usually the only way to get it.
Before i had ever done anything to myself while depressed i was told repeatedly by many organisations i went to for help that they couldnt help me even two mental health clinics i went to in two different states shoved me back out the door with nothing but a slip of paper to call somewhere like Anglicare & the number for Lifeline.
I even had them saying " Remember if it gets bad call Lifeline " now thats all good & well but not good enough if you ask me ( dont get me wrong i know they do a good job but i was at my wits end ) I may as well have called the ambulance before i hurt myself !
Just because she called 000 doesnt mean she is calculating that assumption astounds me & makes me very angry.
I actually cant even believe your posts to be honest.

[Tam-I-Am]

We can argue semantics till the cows come home. cry for attention or cry for help, She wanted to be noticed and chose to harm her child to do so.

why? because if she is not and we allow her PND defence then we must in all fairness accept ALL illnesses as a defence for child abuse including alchoholism and drug abuse.

It has already been proven in that other thread that alchoholism is considered no excuse for child abuse, Why is PND any dfferent when they are both medically proven illnesses?

With attitudes like this, is it any wonder that women with PND are afraid to seek help?

[Baby Girl]

Because our love for the child is greater than our need to be 'free' of the stress.Unfortunately for some people this is not always the case. People need to recognise that before they go on and on about a case that they too know nothing about just as they have accused the rest of us not knowing the whole story. It is all assumptions. Does anyone here know this woman personally?



I thought not!!

[pestiferous]

It was a cry for help in that she needed help what about that dont you understand ?

The fact that she CHOSE to harm her child. if i am a fool for not being able to fathom such a selfish act then so be it. Because i will NEVER understand how any person can place their grief before the pain of an innocent child.


Many people who suffer depression attempt suicide or cut themselves in an attempt to gain attention its the same thing.

No it is not the same thing.

These people chose to harm themselves NOT another. Even in their own emmotional turmoil they did NOT decide anothers life was less important than their own.

feeling depressed does NOT give one the right to harm others.


Before i had ever done anything to myself while depressed i was told repeatedly by many organisations i went to for help that they couldnt help me even two mental health clinics i went to in two different states shoved me back out the door with nothing but a slip of paper to call somewhere like Anglicare & the number for Lifeline.
I even had them saying " Remember if it gets bad call Lifeline " now thats all good & well but not good enough if you ask me ( dont get me wrong i know they do a good job but i was at my wits end ) I may as well have called the ambulance before i hurt myself !

A; this person did not attempt to gain help from any organisation and i do not believe if she had she would be turned away. she chose to harm her child without ever attempting to find a sensible solution.

she ignored the pain of the child,
she ignored the rights of the child
and chose the childs suffering over her own.

If she was so desperate for help why did she not try to kill herself as many others do?

was she afraid of dying?
was she afraid it would hurt?
or did she simply think her life was more valuable than the child's
laying in front of her ?

(these are questions not accusations)


If PND or depression were the cause then every person in the same situati0n would take the same course of action,

Did YOU choose to harm your children as a cry for help during your depression?

(i'm assuming you did not)

and if you didnt, you have by your own actions proven the point that PND and/or depression is no excuse for child abuse (even if ones legal representative is able to dress it up as a cry for help.)


NO ONE has the right to harm a child

[WeThree]

Well now i don't mind being the one that puts my head in the guillotine here.

Can someone explain to me how an entire thread over the attempted murder of a child can show complete understanding and acceptance based soley on the assumption of PND.

Yet a certain other thread which includes the same act is over run by complete disgust.

Yes there are minor differences in the scenarios (for one we KNOW illness is a contributing factor in the other thread, here we do not) but the act itself is the same no matter who it is committed by or what illness contributed to it's occurance!

PND is an illness, so is alchoholism and drug dependency. PND may have less obvious signs than alchohol or drug induced psychosis but it IS more accepted, less severe and easier to treat.

Who's place is it to decide which illness deserves compassion and which does not?

I've had four children, the first at a time when PND was still considered by most to be a load of you know what. We have all tolerated months or years of sleep deprivation, changing hormone levels, night long screaming that makes us wonder if we can really take anymore.

But do we 'half' sufficate our children to gain attention?

no?

Why not ?

Because our love for the child is greater than our need to be 'free' of the stress.

This particular mother harmed her child to gain attention, this IS her actual defence! not just my opinion of the situation.

This is NOT a symptom of PND. For PND to be a factor she would have had to of lost control, in which case the child would be dead. The fact that she stopped then called 00 pretending to care shows it was a planned and calculated selfish act

She COULD have called any number of helplines,
taken the child to a clinic or hospital or friend or whatever,
she could have called 000 and told them she wanted to harm her child now that would have given her all the help and attention she needed but did she?

NO she knowingly put her own feelings before the safety of her child and calculated a way to gain maxmum attention without putting herself at risk.

Now what would have happened if no-one had realised the pillow was placed deliberately? would the abuse continue everytime she felt alone?


Another thought, it is munchousen syndrome (sp?) that includes the harm of children not pnd.

Maybe you are right, maybe this woman doesnt have PND, maybe she is just a lousy person, who knows? but another, scenario is that this woman was suffering from post partum psychosis, a much more severe form of pnd. I watched a good friend suffer through this twice, it started both times within a few days of giving birth, and she went from being an intelligent, thoughtful loving woman to someone who was convinced that her children were evil, that she could read minds as well as possessing other powers, and that my oldest sons father was satan ( i suspect she may have been onto something with the last one;) ) but my point is that this wasnt something she had any control over, it wasnt her
and she is now deeply mortified and upset at the things she can remember, and constantly distraught at the though of how easily she could have hurt or killed one of her children. She has since had her tubes tied because she cannot bear the thought of going through that again, or putting her family through it.
I just wanted to share this to point out that a small percentage of woman really cant help it, they are temporarily very very mentally ill, and without proper intervention, these sort of terrilbe things end up occuring.

[veve]

can I just step in here and ask everyone to take a breath ..

this thread is becoming un necessarily angry - and I doubt that any bubhubber can say that they know ALL the facts in this story.

It is sad - sad for the mum and sad for the baby - lets leave it at that.

what is done.. is done.. hopefully she gets help now.

[Tam-I-Am]

Okay, I'm getting angrier and angrier the more I read

Pestiferous:

1) What qualifications do you have to so thouroughly understand depression of any description, let alone PND?!?

2) To say that "If PND or depression were the cause then every person in the same situation would take the same course of action" is as ludicrous as saying "I had a cold last week. If you don't have exactly the same symptoms as what I did, then you don't have a cold". ITS AN ILLNESS - THREFORE IT AFFECTS DIFFERENT PEOPLE IN DIFFERENT WAYS. Also you are not, anywhere, taking into account that severity can vary from person to person. One person's PND might take the form of mild depression, feeling unable to cope, anothers of having hallucinations and delusions that their child is the devil - are these two women going to take the same course of action - OF COURSE NOT!!!!

3) Your whole argument was that nobody knows what was going on for this woman - Well I'm glad that your psychic so you can preach to the rest of us, because I sure as hell don't know what went on for this poor woman. All I know is that someone would have to be pretty bloody sick to think about harming their child - so yeah, I think she's sick - and HAS AN ILLNESS - that's the point.

4)"NO ONE has the right to harm a child" - if you notice, nobody argued that anybody did. All anybody said was that this woman needed help. Of course her child does too, and needs to be in a safe loving situation - nobody, but NOBODY argued that!

5) The fact that you feel like it was a choice for her - just proves to me how little you understand of PND.

Edited:to remove the last line. I apologise if anyone read it. I was very angry.

[misskittyfantastico]

Thanks Clarabelle. My head is spinning from reading some of these posts. I feel insulted of behalf of all those suffering mental illness (myself included).

[pestiferous]

With attitudes like this, is it any wonder that women with PND are afraid to seek help?

firstly when quoting me please try to keep my words within the context they were written what i said was:


"We can argue semantics till the cows come home. cry for attention or cry for help, She wanted to be noticed and chose to harm her child to do so. There is NO excuse for child abuse."

AND

"Did she put her own wants before the welfare of her child. YES
Did she know she was harming her child. YES
Did she know what she was doing was wrong YES
Should she be treated like any other child abuser YES

why? because if she is not and we allow her PND defence then we must in all fairness accept ALL illnesses as a defence for child abuse including alchoholism and drug abuse. It has already been proven in that other thread that alchoholism is considered no excuse for child abuse, Why is PND any dfferent when they are both medically proven illnesses?"

Now why would this 'attitude' makes it harder for PND sufferers to come forward ?

Are they not both medically proven illnesses?

Are they not both conditions that while they may POSSIBLY reduce ones ability to act accordingly they do not guarantee a loss of such control.

CHOICE is always present i will not ignore the similarities between two illnesses just because some are unable to get over the stigma connected to one.

Do you not think that allowing PND as an excuse for child abuse could itself create a stigma that stops women coming forward.

when people begin to associate PND with the ability to kill an innocent child how quickly will you tell your doctor of the symtoms?

[Tam-I-Am]

Pestiferous:

Clearly you did not read my second post. Try again:


1) What qualifications do you have to so thouroughly understand depression of any description, let alone PND?!?

2) To say that "If PND or depression were the cause then every person in the same situation would take the same course of action" is as ludicrous as saying "I had a cold last week. If you don't have exactly the same symptoms as what I did, then you don't have a cold". ITS AN ILLNESS - THREFORE IT AFFECTS DIFFERENT PEOPLE IN DIFFERENT WAYS. Also you are not, anywhere, taking into account that severity can vary from person to person. One person's PND might take the form of mild depression, feeling unable to cope, anothers of having hallucinations and delusions that their child is the devil - are these two women going to take the same course of action - OF COURSE NOT!!!!

3) Your whole argument was that nobody knows what was going on for this woman - Well I'm glad that your psychic so you can preach to the rest of us, because I sure as hell don't know what went on for this poor woman. All I know is that someone would have to be pretty bloody sick to think about harming their child - so yeah, I think she's sick - and HAS AN ILLNESS - that's the point.

4)"NO ONE has the right to harm a child" - if you notice, nobody argued that anybody did. All anybody said was that this woman needed help. Of course her child does too, and needs to be in a safe loving situation - nobody, but NOBODY argued that!

5) The fact that you feel like it was a choice for her - just proves to me how little you understand of PND.

[razzle]

can I just step in here and ask everyone to take a breath ..

this thread is becoming un necessarily angry - and I doubt that any bubhubber can say that they know ALL the facts in this story.

It is sad - sad for the mum and sad for the baby - lets leave it at that.

what is done.. is done.. hopefully she gets help now.

Can I just reiterate this please?

[Jules16]

PND is often not something that is simple to diagnose and it can come in so many forms.

Of course it is tragic that a child was exposed to such a terrible thing. It is also tragic that we don't have more support for mums with PND.

Don't judge the mum, just feel blessed that you have never felt pushed to the edge like she must have been.

I agree with you!!

[Cinta]

I had a whole long post typed out and the power went out for a few seconds so now i have to re-write the whole thing! :rolleyes:

Gee this thread is getting quite b!tchy!

I dont understand how some people cant just write what they are feeling, read what others have said, ask questions if necessary and then leave it at that. Pestiferous is more than welcome to her opinion, so why all the b!tchy posts having a go at her for saying what she believes in?

Clarabelle i think some of the comments in your posts were uncalled for. No need for it, i bet you wouldnt like someone else saying comments like that to you. Is it really necessary to argue and have a go at others? Come on girls, this is supposed to be a happy, friendly forum full of advice. Respect the opinions of others.

I actually think Pestiferous has some pretty good points.

What qualifications do you have to so thouroughly understand depression of any description, let alone PND?!?
Clarabelle i think that this question could also be directed at you. What qualifications do you have to say that what Pestiferous is saying is incorrect? I think that this question is quite irrelevant, qualifications or not, Pestiferous can say and think what she likes.

No one has the right to harm their child. If she really had PND then why would you trust yourself not to harm the baby. Get help. If you're having a rough time and everything isnt going the way you want it, why hurt an innocent little baby so you can just make the baby shut up and have some peace. Pretty selfish i think.
Some may say im judging too harshly as i have never had PND but just my opinion.

Personally i think the whole PND thing is a bit 'rubbishy' (hehe nice word huh, i made it up :D ). Do people just use this 'mental illness' as an excuse for hurting the poor little baby. Get a grip of yourself, IMO if your having these thoughts then what the hell are you doing having a baby in the first place.

So now after my long, b!tchy, hypocritical post i will go and silently wait for the backlash.
So i guess thats a bit of research for me...Did my b!tchy, rude, opinionated post make me feel better by criticising others for their opinion? No. So keep control of your tongues ladies, dont be too harsh on others for their opinion.

I'll shut up now ;) :yes:

[Tam-I-Am]

What qualifications do you have to so thouroughly understand depression of any description, let alone PND?!?
Clarabelle i think that this question could also be directed at you. What qualifications do you have to say that what Pestiferous is saying is incorrect? I think that this question is quite irrelevant, qualifications or not, Pestiferous can say and think what she likes.


No, no you're quite right to ask this question - and maybe I should have clarified. I'm a psychologist, with 3 years experience working in public psychiatry with women with PND. I've also experienced it myself. That's what experience I have, why I'm so angry and where i'm coming from when I leap to the defense of women who have a horrific, and terribly misunderstood illness.

[MammaMia]

No, no you're quite right to ask this question - and maybe I should have clarified. I'm a psychologist, with 3 years experience working in public psychiatry with women with PND. I've also experienced it myself. That's what experience I have, why I'm so angry and where i'm coming from when I leap to the defense of women who have a horrific, and terribly misunderstood illness.

Looks like we have a great opportunity for insight from a professional with an abundance of experience, ladies.

May I echo the sentiments that have abounded: my best wishes for the child and the mother. Here's hoping that each can live long lives in safety and peace.

I can't imagine how that mother will feel upon her recovery about her actions. I suspect she will have a long and difficult journey ahead of her that will require support and encouragement if she is to heal and be the mother we all wish to be.

[Tam-I-Am]

Personally i think the whole PND thing is a bit 'rubbishy' (hehe nice word huh, i made it up :D ). Do people just use this 'mental illness' as an excuse for hurting the poor little baby. Get a grip of yourself, IMO if your having these thoughts then what the hell are you doing having a baby in the first place.

That's interesting. I wonder what all the depression support organisations, psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, people who have experienced PND and their families etc would have to say about that. I would say, I've studied psychology for 4 years, have worked it for a further 3 and would have to ask on what do you base your opinion that it is a non-existant illness?

Of course mental illness is not "an excuse" for harming a baby - again, i note, that not a single person on this thread has said that it is. What we have said is that it is a reason. Note that these are two different things (an example might be that its not an excuse for me to be *****y to my DH when I have PMS - but it is a reason for that *****iness). Of course we feel sad that this baby was so nearly killed, and was most certainly affected very adversly by her mother's actions. Of course we wish that it hadn't happened.

The fact of the matter is, though, that it did happen - and if, (and I say IF because pestiferous is quite right in saying none of us have the fact to support the argument that this woman did have PND), but IF she did - then it is quite possibly the reason. And its all very well and good for us to stand in judgment of this woman's actions, but we don't know the circumstances, and we don't know what was going through her head at the time, and what she really needs is SUPPORT and HELP - do you honestly think that any woman would CHOSE to harm her child without being extremely unwell?

Additionally - nobody knows who is or is not going to get PND - it's POST natal depression - ie after the birth. So women who experience PND who do have thoughts of harming their babies do not know that they are going to have those thougts until they are having them - this is what they are doing having children in the first place.

BTW the first post that I put in this thread was that many, many women on this forum have experienced, or are experiencing PND - it would be very disappointing indeed for them to come on here and realise that there are STILL people who believe that they are making their condition and symptoms up. Very disappointing indeed.

[misskittyfantastico]

Jacinta do you realise how insulting your post is to anyone that suffers from a mental illness? I suffer from depression. This put me in a higher risk category of developing PND do you believe that I had no right to have my child? Bub Hub is supposed to be a place designed to support parents not to tear those of us down who perhaps are in more need of support than you could ever realise.

[Cinta]

Jacinta do you realise how insulting your post is to anyone that suffers from a mental illness? I suffer from depression. This put me in a higher risk category of developing PND do you believe that I had no right to have my child? Bub Hub is supposed to be a place designed to support parents not to tear those of us down who perhaps are in more need of support than you could ever realise.

I didnt mean that they shouldnt have the child in the first place, what i meant was if it got to the stage where they were gonna lose the plot and do something silly, then they needed to put the child in someone else's care and sort the problems out. Understand?

[misskittyfantastico]

If only it were that easy Jacinta. I truly hope you never have to experience something as nightmarish as depression or PND in your lifetime.

[Cinta]

If only it were that easy Jacinta. I truly hope you never have to experience something as nightmarish as depression or PND in your lifetime.

Well even if i did i would get help before i did something to bub anyway, i would never take anything out on my children. If i were that angry, emotional and depressed i would sooner take it out on myself rather than my innocent children.

[Tam-I-Am]

I didnt mean that they shouldnt have the child in the first place, what i meant was if it got to the stage where they were gonna lose the plot and do something silly, then they needed to put the child in someone else's care and sort the problems out. Understand?


Okay, lets try something different.

Lets just say there's a young mum. She's, oh, 18 or 19. She's just had her first bub, there's no one around - she's moved interstate. Her partner doesn't support her, he just thinks that she should pull her socks up and get on with it - afterall, heaps of people have babies, why can't she cope? She has no-one to leave the child with when things get bad.

She goes to the doctor, but doesn't tell him the full extent of her issues, cause she's scared that if she does, he'll report her to child welfare agencies and her precious baby will be taken away from her.

She calls her mum, who gives her sympathy, but can't provide any practical support. She's shunned at her mother's group because all the other mums are older.

So she starts feeling depressed. She's finding it hard to motivate herself. She stops eating properly and loses weight. She starts getting physcially run down and sick. She's not sleeping properly and she feels anxious all the time. She has no-where to turn. She's alone, and is scared that if people really knew how bad she was feeling, she would lose her baby.

And to top it all off the baby has chronic colic and is screaming day and night, and there's nothing she can do to help her little baby out. And one night, after 2 months of this, day in, day out, something inside her snaps and she says "no more!" She covers the baby's face with a pillow to stop him crying - and then, realising what she's done when he does stop, pulls the pillow off to find that he has stopped breathing.

Now, we can all stand back and judge this hypothetical girl - or we can look at the circumstances - she's very young (not that makes her any better or any worse than any other mum - just that it has been proven to be a risk factor). She's socially isolated, and feels isolated. She has very little social emotional or practical support. She would most certainly be diagnosed with PND.

Is what she did excused by her circumstances? NO - of course not. Nobody would think so. BUT - it become understandable. Who, if pushed to absolute limits of their personal resources, has not snapped? I know I have - thank god not while I had PND - but during a really rough patch with my DH, I slapped him one night. Was that excusable - no, but it was understandable given the circumstances.

Furthermore, if you look at the things that might have been done to help her - this tragedy might have been avoided. But when there are still people in the world saying "PND doesn't exist", and "people just use that as an excuse", when there are people who think that women with PND shouldn't be allowed to have or keep their children - is it any wonder there are women slipping through the cracks?

Not to mention that in Australia we spend about 1/3 the dollars per capita on mental illness that other countries such as the UK and USA do - and they STILL have their problems - so what hope does our mental health system have.

[Tulp]

Additionally - nobody knows who is or is not going to get PND - it's POST natal depression - ie after the birth. So women who experience PND who do have thoughts of harming their babies do not know that they are going to have those thougts until they are having them - this is what they are doing having children in the first place.

I may be going on a limb saying this... The mother was treated for PND with her first child. Could it have helped if she had sort out some help with the second before it got out of hand? Maybe that is what pestiferous meant with choice. That's just my opinion.

I have not known anyone with PND but have known a few people who've had depression. For two people, the depression become worst when they chose to stop taking their medication. For another he did what he needed to do as hard as it was (counselling, medication etc) and dealt with his depression. The words choice and responsibility comes to mind here - once again that's just my opinion.

DH and I are doing some reading on PND so we know what to look out for when bub is here and know what could be done. I know you are never fully prepared for something like this but guess it does not hurt to arm yourself with information and alternatives. I pray I am never faced with it.

Let me just re-stress here that everyone is entittled to their own opinion. Everyone is posting from their own experience and from an environment they come from. Everyone is different. Let's try to appreciate that difference.

[Briswegian]

WOW, I've just been reading these posts and boy is it getting out of hand! We don't know the full story and truthfully we never will. So, lets please not judge this woman or what we would anticipate we would do if walking in her shoes.

As women, we should be championing support services for new mums and if indeed she has PND, then also for PND services. If you're outraged, why not write a letter to your local palimentary member about improving womens care?

Sometimes people lose control. Lets hope it's a lesson to this mum and a reminder to all of us.

[Harmony83]

This is a really touchy topic for everyone, and I can understand how it can get so heated (just means we are all very passionette about the welfare of both mother and child - which is great), but can we please re-read what we have typed before posting it...

I agree with what Clarebelle has said, that it is in no way an excuse, but it is a reason. I have recently been diagnosed with pnd, its not something I am proud of, nor is it something I can help. I understand what it is like to reach breaking point where you just want to snap and unfortunately when this happens, the mother is usually at home with bubs alone. I have never harmed my child, but there were times when I was so scared that I would - It was my DF that finally made me go see a Doctor, otherwise I probably wouldn't have for a very long time. I really hope this woman gets the help that she so obviously needs. Sending all my best wishes to the beautiful baby girl :kiss:

[Tam-I-Am]

I may be going on a limb saying this... The mother was treated for PND with her first child. Could it have helped if she had sort out some help with the second before it got out of hand?


You're right, it might have helped, she might have gone into remission. But having PND once gives you a very much increased chance of having it again. And you don't necessarily recognised any more easily the 2nd time around because it can take many forms.

[MammaMia]

I have not known anyone with PND but have known a few people who've had depression. For two people, the depression become worst when they chose to stop taking their medication. For another he did what he needed to do as hard as it was (counselling, medication etc) and dealt with his depression. The words choice and responsibility comes to mind here.



Some more food for thought to throw into the mix: my DH had extremely severe depression, agrophobia and post traumatic stress disorder.

He too took medication, did the counselling, made lifestyle changes. All of this has had a huge impact on his recovery.

However, he did it with enormous support. The sort of level of support that left most of the professionals he dealt with quite amazed.

They advocate that love & support will carry you so much further than one other element alone.

So, yes, there is always an element of choice and responsibility but there is also the resources that hold you up when you are not capable of making those consistently good choices or shouldering the responsibility. Never underestimate that!

And please, this truly is one of these illnesses that can never be understood until you have been there. I stood shoulder-to-shoulder with my DH for the 18 months he sat at home healing and before that in the period when we didn't know what was the problem. Even from my front row seat, there is still so much I can't fathom about the depths where he went. Thank goodness, though, that for the journey he took, I was there to be the anchor.

Who was the anchor for this woman? Who will be the anchor for the women of BH who will face this challenge? Surely we owe them the opportunity to swim in the calmer waters of support while they shelter from the waves of depression that slam them unexpectedly.

To all who have suffered or suffer now from PND and read this thread, hang in there! You can do it! Hold fast to those who will support you and ignore those who do not.

[misskittyfantastico]

Beautifully put (as always) MM

Psst...it's me, milliesmum...I've gone all exotic!

[reAllytee]

The fact that she CHOSE to harm her child. if i am a fool for not being able to fathom such a selfish act then so be it. Because i will NEVER understand how any person can place their grief before the pain of an innocent child.
No it is not the same thing.
These people chose to harm themselves NOT another. Even in their own emmotional turmoil they did NOT decide anothers life was less important than their own.
feeling depressed does NOT give one the right to harm others.

A; this person did not attempt to gain help from any organisation and i do not believe if she had she would be turned away. she chose to harm her child without ever attempting to find a sensible solution.

she ignored the pain of the child,
she ignored the rights of the child
and chose the childs suffering over her own.

If she was so desperate for help why did she not try to kill herself as many others do?

was she afraid of dying?
was she afraid it would hurt?
or did she simply think her life was more valuable than the child's
laying in front of her ?

(these are questions not accusations)


If PND or depression were the cause then every person in the same situati0n would take the same course of action,

Did YOU choose to harm your children as a cry for help during your depression?

(i'm assuming you did not)

and if you didnt, you have by your own actions proven the point that PND and/or depression is no excuse for child abuse (even if ones legal representative is able to dress it up as a cry for help.)


NO ONE has the right to harm a child

For starters as many other have stated we dont know the full facts to this story so it is really hard to make assumptions who is to know what this woman is going through for all we know she may suffer from some other serious mental health issue or maybe not.
But for starters when i have been depressed or the likes i have thought of harming others back a few years ago when i had a break down i nearly hurt my own mother many a time only just managing to catch myself.
When it came to Boof i will be honest. I shall risk the accusations & fear of what others will say & say yes i did hurt him. How ? I screamed at him, i shook him & even one day i pretty much threw him in his cot. Lucky for me i was able to keep control & never take it any further but i dont know how many times i wanted to. He cried continuously nothing i ever did would make him stop i was lucky to get 2hrs sleep a nite i was going insane & fast. Again lucky for me i had family who helped & supported me through all of this.
She wanted help to look after her child she wasnt thinking about herself or even logically im sure because when you are in such a state you never are.
She didnt seek help i can only imagine because of reactions like your own. People laugh at the idea of depression even nowadays. Many think well i have coped whats your problem. Well sorry but every person is different so we all handle things our own way & some people dont handle things very well. But then maybe she did you saying that no-one would have turned her away is laughable as i said in my previous post i have been turned away numerous amounts of time this is the state of affairs our mental health system is in.
Its easy to stand back & look from the outside saying i would never do that or the likes when you have no idea how you would react in the same circumstance.
Just be lucky & grateful that you have never suffered any form of depression because i honestly think you would be your own worst enemy.
I have never said anyone has the right to harm a child lets get that straight now as i will never condone it ever but what i am saying is i understand how someone could but they of course need help not our judgement as do the children.

[Tam-I-Am]

To all who have suffered or suffer now from PND and read this thread, hang in there! You can do it! Hold fast to those who will support you and ignore those who do not.

As a PND sufferer in remission, and someone who has worked with lots of other PND sufferers:

1) I agree completely!

And

2) Thank you so much for your words of support

This is what this forum should be about - supporting the more vulnerable mums in our midst, not passing judgment on their struggles.

MM, you gave me my first smile of this thread - thank you:hugs:

[caitsmum]

Clarabelle - thank you for your educated insight into PND. I feel that as a community we need education, insight, empathy and compassion for those with mental illness. Thank you for giving great acccurate info.

For those of you that think that PND and other mental illnesses are just "rubbish" as another post described it. Than be carefull because one day it might just be you with a mental illness looking for some understanding and compassion.

[OscarTheGrouch]

Clarabelle - thank you for your educated insight into PND. I feel that as a community we need education, insight, empathy and compassion for those with mental illness. Thank you for giving great acccurate info.

For those of you that think that PND and other mental illnesses are just "rubbish" as another post described it. Than be carefull because one day it might just be you with a mental illness looking for some understanding and compassion.
Well said .:thumbsup:

[Mum&bubs]

Okay firstly i would like to apologize for even starting this thread as i had no intention to upset anyone or make anyone angry. I honestly really dont have a clue about PND & when i heard the story i really only heard "woman trying to harm her child" i didnt think about if she was depressed or what not so im going to keep my mouth shut about this because alot of you are right i wouldnt have a clue about pnd as i have never suffered it myself & i made a very unwise decision to pass judgement. :thumbsdown: My bad.

[misskittyfantastico]

Thanks Mum&bub...it's one of those subjects that some people feel very strongly about. I think you're a top chick for being so honest.

[MammaMia]

Okay firstly i would like to apologize for even starting this thread as i had no intention to upset anyone or make anyone angry. I honestly really dont have a clue about PND & when i heard the story i really only heard "woman trying to harm her child" i didnt think about if she was depressed or what not so im going to keep my mouth shut about this because alot of you are right i wouldnt have a clue about pnd as i have never suffered it myself & i made a very unwise decision to pass judgement. :thumbsdown: My bad.

We all live & learn.

And we've all had times where we didn't think about a certain perspective on a scenario.

Just chalk it up to the learning curve and I'm sure you've gained greater insight into PND, as I have too.

[Angelmist♥]

Okay firstly i would like to apologize for even starting this thread as i had no intention to upset anyone or make anyone angry. I honestly really dont have a clue about PND & when i heard the story i really only heard "woman trying to harm her child" i didnt think about if she was depressed or what not so im going to keep my mouth shut about this because alot of you are right i wouldnt have a clue about pnd as i have never suffered it myself & i made a very unwise decision to pass judgement. :thumbsdown: My bad.

Just shows you care hun:) Just makes me sad that on a forum of mothers, some can be so nasty towards the very people who need this place the most.I can near on guarantee, that I would not have seeked help without coming here and being able to read other people's stories and have their support in return.

http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Depression_different_types?OpenDocument

Just a link about depression.Or if anyone's interested www.beyondblue.org.au

[Tam-I-Am]

Okay firstly i would like to apologize for even starting this thread as i had no intention to upset anyone or make anyone angry. I honestly really dont have a clue about PND & when i heard the story i really only heard "woman trying to harm her child" i didnt think about if she was depressed or what not so im going to keep my mouth shut about this because alot of you are right i wouldnt have a clue about pnd as i have never suffered it myself & i made a very unwise decision to pass judgement. :thumbsdown: My bad.

Hey Krissy,

Being uneducated about a topic isn't a shameful thing - afterall, all of us are uneducated about something. I'm sorry I've been so passionate and, at times, angry in this debate. As people might be able to tell, its obviously a topic close to my heart.

Part of the reason that I have gotten so angry is because I can't stand it when people clearly know nothing about the topic they are speaking about, and passing judgment on, and yet continue to do so. You didn't do this at all. Thank you for your apology, and your acknowledgement that you have things to learn - so do we all.

[JodieC]

Okay, lets try something different.

Lets just say there's a young mum. She's, oh, 18 or 19. She's just had her first bub, there's no one around - she's moved interstate. Her partner doesn't support her, he just thinks that she should pull her socks up and get on with it - afterall, heaps of people have babies, why can't she cope? She has no-one to leave the child with when things get bad.

She goes to the doctor, but doesn't tell him the full extent of her issues, cause she's scared that if she does, he'll report her to child welfare agencies and her precious baby will be taken away from her.

She calls her mum, who gives her sympathy, but can't provide any practical support. She's shunned at her mother's group because all the other mums are older.

So she starts feeling depressed. She's finding it hard to motivate herself. She stops eating properly and loses weight. She starts getting physcially run down and sick. She's not sleeping properly and she feels anxious all the time. She has no-where to turn. She's alone, and is scared that if people really knew how bad she was feeling, she would lose her baby.

And to top it all off the baby has chronic colic and is screaming day and night, and there's nothing she can do to help her little baby out. And one night, after 2 months of this, day in, day out, something inside her snaps and she says "no more!" She covers the baby's face with a pillow to stop him crying - and then, realising what she's done when he does stop, pulls the pillow off to find that he has stopped breathing.

Now, we can all stand back and judge this hypothetical girl - or we can look at the circumstances - she's very young (not that makes her any better or any worse than any other mum - just that it has been proven to be a risk factor). She's socially isolated, and feels isolated. She has very little social emotional or practical support. She would most certainly be diagnosed with PND.

Is what she did excused by her circumstances? NO - of course not. Nobody would think so. BUT - it become understandable. Who, if pushed to absolute limits of their personal resources, has not snapped? I know I have - thank god not while I had PND - but during a really rough patch with my DH, I slapped him one night. Was that excusable - no, but it was understandable given the circumstances.

Furthermore, if you look at the things that might have been done to help her - this tragedy might have been avoided. But when there are still people in the world saying "PND doesn't exist", and "people just use that as an excuse", when there are people who think that women with PND shouldn't be allowed to have or keep their children - is it any wonder there are women slipping through the cracks?

Not to mention that in Australia we spend about 1/3 the dollars per capita on mental illness that other countries such as the UK and USA do - and they STILL have their problems - so what hope does our mental health system have.

:crying: That just made me bawl my eyes out

[melfunction]

I cannot believe the ignorance in this thread.

No one can understand this particular mothers thoughts and feelings as we are not her. We are not living her life, sharing her pain or anguish.

I hope she gets the help she needs.

[pestiferous]

Who, if pushed to absolute limits of their personal resources, has not snapped?
------------------------------------------------------------


This was one of my original points, I do not believe this girl 'snapped'.

First she laid a blanket over the childs face and left the room. THIS i believe is an attempt to stop the child crying. (more to stop her hearing the child cry) either way it was still a considered action.

BUT

By her own admition when laying the blanket over the child did not work she returned to press the pillow against its face.

she could have walked out the front door and sat out of ear shot as i am sure many mothers have at this (supposed) snapping point.

she was depressed,

not stupid! no-one 'forgets' suffication kills, she was aware that muffling the sound would not work and chose to take more drastic measures.

her intention at this point has changed from simply stopping the crying to murder.

now In her own words while trying to press the pillow against the childs face she stopped to go to the toilet !

*She was oblivious to the pain of her child but noticed she needed the loo?

before going to the toilet she turned the child onto it's stomach .

It was only after repeated failed attempts and plenty of time to think about the consequences did she choose to stop trying to kill the child and call for help.

Honestly i believe this call came more from realising the trouble she was in than any care for the welfare of the child.

her version of events as stated within the provided link simply doesnt 'add up'

after having blankets and pillows pushed into its poor little face, the child only started sufficating AFTER she went to the toilet.

She admits saying sorry to the child as she sufficated it but denies she ever intended to kill the child?

Statements like these stink of legal intervention not an honest account of events


no matter the circumstances leading to the event, This was a calculated attack over an extended period of time. she did not "snap", she did not momentarily loose control, she did not loose the ability to know right from wrong.

[Tam-I-Am]

Again, as I said in a post a while ago - I'm really glad we have a psychic amongst us to tell us the full facts, table of events, thoughts and feelings that this woman was going through.

You must have read a different news story, because the one that I read certainly didn't detail that.

And lets just hope that you are never in need of any form of treatment for mental illness - or anyone you love. God forbid one of your daughters or daughter-in-laws should develop PND - because she would certainly not get any understanding or support from you, would she.

This debate is over for me, I'm afraid. I'm sick to death of trying to explain to people who not only don't even have the most elementary understanding of PND, but despite my best attempts, are not willing to take on board any education or even try some empathy on for size.

[razzle]

And on that note, I think we'll close this thread.