As long as you have a healthy baby it does not matter how it is born?

[spiritedbirth]

I am finding from many women say that the birth of their child if not gone to plan (say planning a normal uncomplicated vb and end up having a c-section or traumatic birth) can have devastating and long term effects on their emotional and mental health, and also a traumatic affect on relationships with their children and partners.

So why is this phrase used so much?

"As long as we have healthy babies that is all that matters..."

Of course this is our main focus...but what should be seen as a straight forward, normal and uncomplicated pregnancies and labour are suddenly high risk when we have our first contraction!! ( sorry I should re phrase, when we have our first missed period!!!) Moniters, needles, blood tests, GBS, Diabetes, CPD etc... I am sick of it!!

I have seen doctors and midwives come into a room with a woman labouring and look at the moniter, check it off with the time and walk off without even acknowleding the mother!! "Hello there is a woman labouring here "...

We as women accept it though....

I am sick of woman being made to feel their pregnancy & labour comes with interventions as protocol !! Interventions are to be used when problems arise not as a precaution :no:

Healthy babies would be born and also sane mothers would flourish if they (the medical system) would just leave us the hell alone to birth our babies...

Yes babies and mums sometimes need assistance but not at every bloody birth!! Epidurals are being handed out at some hospital as if it was candy... "this is your last chance for an epidural if you want one now" assuming all women want one or need one.

Sorry just a little vent!!!!

I am sure I am going to get a million posts about doctors saving their babies and so they should...I am talking about the doctors and midwives that cause more problems for mum and baby in pregnancy and labour by intervening when intervention is not needed.

If I offended anyone this is not my intent. I think though that childbirth is being turned into a medical maze???? It should not be this difficult to have normal, natural, safe and pleasent birth in a hospital, should it??

Childbirth is a safe as life itself :flowerz:

[RoarsomeMum]

childbirth is being turned into a medical maze???? It should not be this difficult to have normal, natural, safe and pleasent birth in a hospital, should it??

Childbirth is a safe as life itself :flowerz:

Most people feel like too much Medical Intervention is Utilized.. Thats why Birthing Centers, Doola's, Homebirths are becomming more popular.. But hospital births are ABOUT medical intervention (politics and policy mainly) so if u are after Med free, choose dif birthing option perhaps?

[~Emmylou~]

I hear you.
:o

[Lastcenturymum]

I'm not quiet sure I follow the direction of your post as it covers a few points, but...

I guess that is why it is good to be as informed as possible and why you choose the person/hospital/birth style that suits what you want.


Healthy babies would be born and also sane mothers would flourish if they (the medical system) would just leave us the hell alone to birth our babies...

well if I had been 'left alone' my baby would have died and so quite possibly would I. I felt great when told I had severe PE and was sent straight to hospital. So I'm glad I didn't rely on how I was feeling and trusted someone who was trained.

Some births do seem to affect people long term as I have learnt lately. I was sharing my birth experience today with a health professional (just in general conversation) and she couldn't believe what I went through and that I don't have long term issues. Sure at at 3 months it all caught up with me, I sobbed for half a night sitting on the nappy bucket in the laundry (a colicky baby didn't help) but that seemed to be a turning point for me. I didn't feel I was robbed of a 'good experience' by what I went through. I guess two great births after that helped, but I was doing coping alright anyway. I think it's a very personal thing.

[spiritedbirth]

well if I had been 'left alone' my baby would have died and so quite possibly would I. I felt great when told I had severe PE and was sent straight to hospital. So I'm glad I didn't rely on how I was feeling and trusted someone who was trained.


Yes of course I understand this and thank god for life saving medical equipment and trained doctors in your circumstance...

For the majority of women though complications that could of been avoided and would have been, if the women were left alone uniterrupted and undistubed in birth with no intervention...

What I am trying to say is some interventions cause the complications to arise in the first place...




But hospital births are ABOUT medical intervention (politics and policy mainly) so if u are after Med free, choose dif birthing option perhaps?


Good point, so why are women and families choosing obstetricians and a hospital if they are wanting to achieve a non interventional birth, if other options are present??? If hospital births are about medical intervention, then why?

[Nowhere]

from some one that has had a not great birth, labouring on and of from 22 weeks druged up to keep me pregent, the medication never stoped it completely but reduced the effect meaning i wasnt dialating as much, then at just over 35 weeks I had a C section, baby wriped away to go to SCN etc, I also have a very sick baby, and you know what I couldnt give a sh*T about my birthing experience, and if given the choice of a good birth or a healthy baby next time I am dam sure which one i would pick, I know there isnt a choice its just the way it is but to me that statement is true for ME, im not trying to discredit those that have had a terible birthing experience by any streth, Just to me suffering through a terible birth would be preferable over watching your baby suffer
__________________

[MyFourCubs]

Childbirth is a safe as life itself :flowerz:

Do you know what? As much as you get tired of hearing "A healthy baby is all that matters" I get really sick of hearing how safe and wonderful a natural birth is. I know that you don't want to hear "I would have died / baby would have died":ecomcity: for many women it's TRUE. You have no right to preach that "childborth is as safe as life itself," when a great nember of women CAN'T birth safely for numerous reasons. I'm sorry if you are tired of hearing this also but in each of my vaginal births intervention WAS neccessary to save both my life and in one of those births, my baby's. My ceaserean was neccessary for my 3rd birth for a number of serious medical factors and if I had not have had the ceaserean both my baby and I would have bled to death. the fact is a large number of women do not birth well and / or "safely" and I am one of them- doesn't make me a failure. Early last century women and babies died by the millions in childbirth- that is why we now have "medical intervention." While I agree that intervention is over-used in hospitals- the availability of invention is a medical neccessity.

I do not agree wholy with the statement "as long as you have a healthy baby," because from first hand experience I think that Mum coming through it in one peice also is rather important! I know how traumatic births can be when they go wrong and even WITH a healthy baby a woman can be mentally and physically scarred for life. But, I would certainly opt for a healthy baby every time- regardless of the birth circumstance- who wouldn't?

I hate that these topics are constantly brought up on Bubhub. they just go on and on and on and on and on and on......................:rolleyes:

[girly]

Healthy babies would be born and also sane mothers would flourish if they (the medical system) would just leave us the hell alone to birth our babies...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:



:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[wannabemum]

There are times (ofcourse) when medical intervention is needed due to health risks of the baby and mother. However yes I agree with you, there is nowadays alot more intervention than is needed.... the main ones which pi$$ me off is inducing a pregnant mum because she is 10 days overdue. There are some mums that are happy to wait and let it happen naturally, and the second is doctors jumping into ceasers way too quickly....

Saying all of this.... I needed ALOT of medical intervention during my pregnancy and labour and I thank every dr, nurse, midwife and medical practioner that helped us, they are miracle workers :-)

[wannabemum]

But, I would certainly opt for a healthy baby every time- regardless of the birth circumstance- who wouldn't?

I hate that these topics are constantly brought up on Bubhub. they just go on and on and on and on and on and on......................:rolleyes:


:yes: You are very right!

[UmmInayah]

I agree that there are certain circumstances where medical intervention is necessary.

I went into my first labour telling my midwife I am going to have an epidural. She told me I wouldn't need it and I could do it without it. She is a saint for telling me this. I cannot thank her enough. I had a great birthing experience.

Although, because I didn't know as much as I do now about birth, if I had had an epidural, I would have felt exactly the same!

A lot of the time it IS women deciding on the intervention, not just doctors pushing it on them. I am sick of hearing that whatever intervention happens it is a result of the doctor, not the woman. Surely a woman has to take SOME responsibility for what has happened to her?

Doctors/hospitals/nurses are not the evils they are sometimes made out to be. They are saints in some peoples' eyes.

[workin'mumof2]

A lot of the time it IS women deciding on the intervention, not just doctors pushing it on them. I am sick of hearing that whatever intervention happens it is a result of the doctor, not the woman. Surely a woman has to take SOME responsibility for what has happened to her?

i hope you dont mind me quoting you but i really dissagree with this part here because i was forced to have it to the point i was held on the bed and had a the gas piece shoved in my mouth.

so no i did not have ANY responsibitlity for what happened to me.

my birth story on here doesnt include this for a very good reason.. so i dont have to read it over and over again.:gloomy:

[headoverfeet]

I am finding from many women say that the birth of their child if not gone to plan (say planning a normal uncomplicated vb and end up having a c-section or traumatic birth) can have devastating and long term effects on their emotional and mental health, and also a traumatic affect on relationships with their children and partners.

So why is this phrase used so much?

"As long as we have healthy babies that is all that matters..."

Of course this is our main focus...but what should be seen as a straight forward, normal and uncomplicated pregnancies and labour are suddenly high risk when we have our first contraction!! ( sorry I should re phrase, when we have our first missed period!!!) Moniters, needles, blood tests, GBS, Diabetes, CPD etc... I am sick of it!!

I have seen doctors and midwives come into a room with a woman labouring and look at the moniter, check it off with the time and walk off without even acknowleding the mother!! "Hello there is a woman labouring here "...

We as women accept it though....

I am sick of woman being made to feel their pregnancy & labour comes with interventions as protocol !! Interventions are to be used when problems arise not as a precaution :no:

Healthy babies would be born and also sane mothers would flourish if they (the medical system) would just leave us the hell alone to birth our babies...

Yes babies and mums sometimes need assistance but not at every bloody birth!! Epidurals are being handed out at some hospital as if it was candy... "this is your last chance for an epidural if you want one now" GGGGRRRR!!!

Sorry just a little vent!!!!

I am sure I am going to get a million posts about doctors saving their babies and so they should...I am talking about the doctors and midwives that cause more problems for mum and baby in pregnancy and labour by intervening when intervention is not needed.

If I offended anyone this is not my intent. I think though that childbirth is being turned into a medical maze???? It should not be this difficult to have normal, natural, safe and pleasent birth in a hospital, should it??

Childbirth is a safe as life itself :flowerz:

:iagree:


I agree that there are certain circumstances where medical intervention is necessary.

I went into my first labour telling my midwife I am going to have an epidural. She told me I wouldn't need it and I could do it without it. She is a saint for telling me this. I cannot thank her enough. I had a great birthing experience.

Although, because I didn't know as much as I do now about birth, if I had had an epidural, I would have felt exactly the same!

A lot of the time it IS women deciding on the intervention, not just doctors pushing it on them. I am sick of hearing that whatever intervention happens it is a result of the doctor, not the woman. Surely a woman has to take SOME responsibility for what has happened to her?

Doctors/hospitals/nurses are not the evils they are sometimes made out to be. They are saints in some peoples' eyes.

:iagree: also. It amazes me how many women agree/ask for intervension with only the basic knowledge of the consequenses, I'll admit with Connors birth I had little knowledge of the short and long term problems induction can cause (both physical and emotional).

Basically I strongly believe that if you mess with nature (induction, epidural, S&S, other mic "natural induction methods", gel, ARM, you get the pic) you are asking for the cascade of intervension to begin.


Leave well alone


If it aint broke dont fix it.

These sayings come to mind.

[KatiesMum]

Do you know what? As much as you get tired of hearing "A healthy baby is all that matters" I get really sick of hearing how safe and wonderful a natural birth is. I know that you don't want to hear "I would have died / baby would have died":ecomcity: for many women it's TRUE. You have no right to preach that "childborth is as safe as life itself," when a great nember of women CAN'T birth safely for numerous reasons. I'm sorry if you are tired of hearing this also but in each of my vaginal births intervention WAS neccessary to save both my life and in one of those births, my baby's. My ceaserean was neccessary for my 3rd birth for a number of serious medical factors and if I had not have had the ceaserean both my baby and I would have bled to death. the fact is a large number of women do not birth well and / or "safely" and I am one of them- doesn't make me a failure. Early last century women and babies died by the millions in childbirth- that is why we now have "medical intervention." While I agree that intervention is over-used in hospitals- the availability of invention is a medical neccessity.

I do not agree wholy with the statement "as long as you have a healthy baby," because from first hand experience I think that Mum coming through it in one peice also is rather important! I know how traumatic births can be when they go wrong and even WITH a healthy baby a woman can be mentally and physically scarred for life. But, I would certainly opt for a healthy baby every time- regardless of the birth circumstance- who wouldn't?

I hate that these topics are constantly brought up on Bubhub. they just go on and on and on and on and on and on......................:rolleyes:

:iagree:

thank you Sarah for saying it so elequantly.

[UmmInayah]

i hope you dont mind me quoting you but i really dissagree with this part here because i was forced to have it to the point i was held on the bed and had a the gas piece shoved in my mouth.

so no i did not have ANY responsibitlity for what happened to me.

my birth story on here doesnt include this for a very good reason.. so i dont have to read it over and over again.:gloomy:

I'm sorry you went through that. I think if you're still feeling bad about what has happened, you should report it. As far as I am concerned if it has happened as you said "shoved in your mouth", I would take that as assault.

[headoverfeet]

I'm sorry you went through that. I think if you're still feeling bad about what has happened, you should report it. As far as I am concerned if it has happened as you said "shoved in your mouth", I would take that as assault.
:iagree:

[threepigs]

well if I had been 'left alone' my baby would have died and so quite possibly would I.

I didn't feel I was robbed of a 'good experience' by what I went through. I think it's a very personal thing.

:iagree:

Same here - left alone wouldn't have helped me or my bub and I don't feel remotely unhappy about how things panned out nor robbed of anything.

I also think different people have a different level of comfort with medicalisation - for some people that actually makes them feel reassured, for others (like yourself) it feels like interferance.

We're all different ;)

[Shmeegle]

I think you have to give women some credit, a lot of people are well informed about their choices and make their decisions accordingly. Homebirthing or not using pain relief is not everyone's cup of tea!!
For example, I had faith in my care providers, and did not do a detailed birth plan stating "no this no that" etc. This doesn't mean I was subjected to unwanted intervention. I asked to be induced after 8 days *shock horror*even after reading a lot of negative information about inductions. I had a great birth and my daughter was positively thriving and scored 9 on her apgars.

[raisingthree]

OK. So I may be throwing a spanner in the works here but I honestly believe in a woman making her own choice on how to birth, whether that is a c-section, homebirth, waterbirth, hospital birth or whatever.

Shouldn't it be that a woman should be able to choose the type of birth she wants???? Regardless???

[Sheer Bliss]

I think this thread should start with everyone saying that this is an area where we just have to agree to disagree.

Speak to ANYONE who has had a traumatic experience, and of course the birth is more important to them.

Speak to someone who has lost a child or nearly lost a child inlabour, and they will find a healthy baby more important to them.

It all depends on you, you POV about the intervention etc etc. Another one of those....we are all different, no one size fits.

My first birth......laboured nicely for 7hrs, kept begging for an epi (which the m/w KNEW i was against) so she kept putting it off. Then at the end, i failed to push for several contractions and screamed at my OB to 'cut it bloody out' 'you wanted a c-section before, just hit me over the head and GET IT OUT' LOL do you think i was well and truly in transition then? :laughing:. SO he politely obliged, gave me a very small episiotomy and used hte vaccum to help my princess out with one last push. Some poeple would be horrified if their birth ended that way. Me.....i was fine. It took a few days for the cut to heal, and i felt great afterwards. He intervened, and it wasn't medically necessary, but I asked for it, and it was best for ME in that situation. It doesn't mean it was right for someone else though, and i can respect that. But others also need to respect that a homebirth situation is not for me, its out of my comfort zone.

I DO think that some woman ask for/refuse intervention, without the necessary knowledge about what it could mean inthe future (Epidural risks, VBAC's, 4th degree tearing etc) and I think the medical proffesssionals need to do more to explain the possible outcomes before the birth, so you can be aware before it's a panicked situation.

At the end of the day, some woman NEED the intervention (ds was induced, failing placenta from PE - he NEEDED to be out or he would have died, and my liver was starting to fail, i could have died too) I am VERY greatful that I had great medical attention and blood tests/scans to reveal this. I can also acknowledge that I am in the minority. MOST woman aren't high risk, and shouldn't be treated accordingly.

My OB knows i am not a fan of epidurals, c-sections etc, so does his best to help me avoid them safely!

[ComeBackKid]

Do you know what? As much as you get tired of hearing "A healthy baby is all that matters" I get really sick of hearing how safe and wonderful a natural birth is. I know that you don't want to hear "I would have died / baby would have died":ecomcity: for many women it's TRUE. You have no right to preach that "childborth is as safe as life itself," when a great nember of women CAN'T birth safely for numerous reasons. I'm sorry if you are tired of hearing this also but in each of my vaginal births intervention WAS neccessary to save both my life and in one of those births, my baby's. My ceaserean was neccessary for my 3rd birth for a number of serious medical factors and if I had not have had the ceaserean both my baby and I would have bled to death. the fact is a large number of women do not birth well and / or "safely" and I am one of them- doesn't make me a failure. Early last century women and babies died by the millions in childbirth- that is why we now have "medical intervention." While I agree that intervention is over-used in hospitals- the availability of invention is a medical neccessity.

I do not agree wholy with the statement "as long as you have a healthy baby," because from first hand experience I think that Mum coming through it in one peice also is rather important! I know how traumatic births can be when they go wrong and even WITH a healthy baby a woman can be mentally and physically scarred for life. But, I would certainly opt for a healthy baby every time- regardless of the birth circumstance- who wouldn't?

I hate that these topics are constantly brought up on Bubhub. they just go on and on and on and on and on and on......................:rolleyes:


:iagree: Absolutely. Very well said Sara. Could not agree with you more.

[Pax]

i have had 3 drug free births and I am just completely stuffed as to why people think birth is something they want to go through - it farkin hurts!!!!

i am all for intervention if it is in the best interest of the baby.

i am happy to increase the risk to my safety in order to give my child the best opportunity in life.

i would do anything for my kids.

and i honesty dont think you are missing much by missing out on agonising birth pains.

[Tam-I-Am]

I don't think that ANYBODY - not even the most ardent natural birth advocate - would argue with the fact that sometimes, intervention is necessary, and sometimes, to save your baby's life, you have to submit to such intervention.

Having said that, I agree with Spirted Birth - intervention shouldn't be the norm - it should be the exception, for the times when it will be life-saving. I don't deny that there are lots of mums and babies on these boards who wouldn't be here today without life-saving birth intervention and technology. I also know that there are many many MORE women on these boards who have been unnecessarily subjected to intervention that has left them mentally and sometimes physically scarred.

I do not think that a mother's entire worth is how she births her baby, and that she is simply a vessel to do so. I do not believe that her mental health is a negligible issue, and I don't believe that intervention is necessary NEARLY as often as it is meted out in Australia.

At the end of the day, here is what I believe - if you're happy with your birthing experience (whatever that experience was - from the most intervention-filled c-sect to the most intervention-free freebirth!) then good for you :) I'm truly, unconditionally pleased for you! I will NEVER argue with a woman's right to chose intervention - NEVER. I will, however, fight to the death for women to have truly informed consent. Knowledge is power, and with that knowledge and power, I think many more women could avoid birth trauma.

I refuse to leave my birthing body, and fate, up to the medical 'experts'. They're no expert about ME or MY BABY. They're not responsible for ME or MY BABY. Some women may be happy to wholeheartedly hand their safety over to the doctors, but I think that handing your safety over to another person, no matter how medically qualified, when they cannot, by definition, have only your best interests at heart (because they must abide by hospital protocols, no matter how against evidence-based practice they are, because they are intervetion-happy as few people sue BECAUSE of intervention [no matter how unnecessary] but many sue becaues of lack of intervetion when things go badly, because of their insurance and their own biases and the list goes on) - I think to do so is dangerous and foolhardy.

The fact of the matter is that in a normal, healthy labour - as the greatest majority of labours are - the safest birth is an intervention free birth. I stress that this does NOT mean that intervention doesn't have a place - but it shouldn't be the norm, and healthy normal intervention-free birth be the exception.

Intervention is only the better option when it does save lives. Its not safer for ANYBODY - baby OR mother - when it is unnecessary.

[V8]

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: with Tami :D

[tootiredtosleep]

After a terrible first birth, yes it did matter to me how my 2nd DD arrived. There was no way that I was having her any other way than a caesar.
There are many Mums on here who say the opposite - they'd never have another casear.

I didn't really think it was that major before, but my first birth still affects me.

[LilMissnBoo]

I had a c/section. And I didn't care how she was born, I just wanted her to be healthy. I'm not traumatised by my c/s - I know there are a lot of women out there who are :hugs:

I now know I ended up with a c/s because I didn't know any better. I had no idea induction could lead to one. I had no idea having drugs (epi, peth) could lead to one also. I did no research when I was pregnant. No research at all :no: The reason being is that I didn't want to jinx my pregnancy. I know that seems crazy, but I had a m/c and I just didn't want to read anything about pregnancy/birth/babies! I didn't even come on bub hub!

When I have another child I am aiming for a VBAC :) I have so much more knowledge now.

[KatiesMum]

I had a c/s for DD. It wasnt what I wanted - but I wasnt traumatised by it either.

After that I joined bubhub, and I couldnt really understand much about birth trauma .... about the deepseated NEED to birth naturally - and I still dont.

I do understand that some women have had really terrible births, that some have emotional difficulties dealing with it, that some are physically injured and suffer issues for years afterwards .......

BUT

I desperately ache for another baby. I had lots of issues conceiving, so knew that I wouldnt get the large family I really wanted, but would be happy with 2.

I was (and still am) absolutely over the moon with having my DD. She is everything I ever dreamed of and more.......

But i have a huge hole inside as I still have yet to come to terms with my inability to have another baby.

I would give ANYTHING .... the most traumatic birth, the worst recovery, the most painful of injuries or issues afterwards ... to have another child.

I have Leukaemia - I might not live to see my beautiful angel grow up (though :fingerscrossed: hopefully will)..... but I will never have another chance at birth, never have another newborn baby, never have a little sister or brother for my daughter to play with and love ....It kinda puts birth trauma in perspective for me.

[RoarsomeMum]

Well freaking said Katiesmum.. I totally agree..
Fight hard and enjoy your DD :yes:

[MyFourCubs]

:hugs: Oh Katies Mum, sweetheart:hugs: I wish I could say something to make you feel better there but at least, I hope, you have helped put this all in perspective. Oh and with we girls at Bubhub behind you you bet you'll see your dd grow up!!!:yes: Sending you lots of :goodvibes::goodvibes::goodvibes:

[Tam-I-Am]

Oh, Julie :( :hugs:

Believe it or not - I DO understand where you're coming from. It would put it into rather sharp perspective.

The thing is, intervention doesn't automatically = safety. In fact, in a lot of circumstances the reverse is true - unnecessary intervention is very dangerous, not only to the mother's mental health, but also to the baby's and mother's physical health.

Like I said in my post above - I don't think even the most ardent natural birthing advocate would deny that there is a place for intervention. Hell, if I was told it was a choice between suffering PTSD every day of the rest of my life and having a health baby - of COURSE I would choose trauma for me, no doubt. But it doesn't have to come down to that choice in the great majority of cases. Sometimes it does, and like I said - there's absolutely no denying that there is a time and place for intervention.

I see it somewhat like this: Some women get ovarian cancer. Ovarian cancer is an awful illness that goes undetected until end-stages in 75% of cases. It can limit a woman's ability to interact with her family, it can be extremely traumatic, it has incredibly high mortality rates, its an incredibly damaging illness. It's the 6th most common cause of death in Australian women at the moment. A potential solution would be to have every woman undergo a double ovarian removal procedure upon the birth of her last child. But we don't do that - why? Because although it affects a lot of women - there are FAR FAR many more women who DON'T get it, and won't require the removal of their ovaries. I see intervention in childbirth in the same light - it can be (and IS - under certain circumstances) lifesaving - but it shouldn't be the routine! It should be used appropriately, in cases where it is truly needed.

Simplistic? yes - because it doesn't cover the fact that there is another life at stake (the baby's). But to my mind, that makes it even MORE important to reserve intervention for when its truly necessary and lifesaving - not just foist it upon, or offer it to, 95% of ALL birthing women. Intervention can be lifesaving - it can also be incredibly damaging, even life-threatening. It needs to be used with extreme caution.

[spiritedbirth]

Hi Katies mum :wave: the original post is in no way to disrespect women who are TTC or had intervention in their birth. It is just a general feeling I hear from women daily is that they are sick of being treated high risk just because they are pregnant. Also they are sick of not being given the information they need to make an informed choice in regards to the birth of their baby.


I can understand how when what you have been through and are still currently going through my post would put birth trauma into perspective as such a minor and petty issue in comparison. I put myself in your shoes and I agree with your post, I would do almost anything as well to have a baby if I couldn't conceive. I wish you all the best with your continued fight and I also agree with PP you will see you daughter grow up!!

I will not give up the fight for this cause in helping to inform women that birth can be without all the trauma and fear surrounding it. Yes birth is painful!! We do not always though beacuse we are in pain...have to hand over our power to medical staff to ensure a safe and healthy delivery of baby. When women also have a caeserean they should still have the right to have all of their birth preferences honoured. Mum sometimes (most of the time I should say) knows what is best for both parties when she tunes in to her baby & body.


Intervention is only the better option when it does save lives. Its not safer for ANYBODY - baby OR mother - when it is unnecessary

:iagree:

No one is also saying intervention should never be used!!! It justs seems every birth these days needs some sort of intervening (sigh) and to tell you the truth is scary to think what the future generations of mums will one day have to endure to have their babies...

[Pax]

Maternal Mortality Ratio is the ratio of the number of maternal deaths per 100,000 live births. The MMR is used as a measure of the quality of a health care system. Sierra Leone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_Leone) has the highest maternal death rate at 2,000, and Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan) has the second highest maternal death rate at 1900 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births, reported by the UN based on 2000 figures. According to the Central Asia Health Review (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia_Health_Review), Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan)'s maternal mortality rate was 1,600 in 2007.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternal_death#cite_note-6) Lowest rates included Iceland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland) at 0 per 100,000 and Austria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria) at 4 per 100,000. In the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States), the maternal death rate was 11 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births in 2005.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternal_death#cite_note-7)
"Lifetime risk of maternal death" accounts for number of pregnancies and risk. In sub-Saharan Africa the lifetime risk of maternal death is 1 in 16, for developed nations only 1 in 2,800.
In 2003, the WHO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization), UNICEF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNICEF) and UNFPA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNFPA) produced a report with statistics gathered from 2000. The world average was 400, the average for developed regions was 20, and for developing regions 440. The worst countries were: Sierra Leone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_Leone) (2,000), Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan) (1,900), Malawi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malawi) (1,800), Angola (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angola) (1,700), Niger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger) (1,600), Tanzania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanzania) (1,500), Rwanda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwanda) (1,400), Mali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali) (1,200), Somalia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia), Zimbabwe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwe), Chad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chad), Central African Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_African_Republic), Guinea Bissau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_Bissau) (1,100 each), Mozambique (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambique), Burkina Faso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burkina_Faso), Burundi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burundi), and Mauritania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania) (1,000 each).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternal_death

the above stats (not sure on their accuracy as come from wiki) show the difference in maternal death in countries with safe intervention and those without.

I think we should never complain about our maternal health system ... we are very very lucky.

[spiritedbirth]

the above stats (not sure on their accuracy as come from wiki) show the difference in maternal death in countries with safe intervention and those without.

I think we should never complain about our maternal health system ... we are very very lucky.


I am sorry but you cannot compare the above statistics from third world countires to developed nations with birth intervention.

From what I have researched it is not the lack of birth intervention in these countries which has caused maternal or infant deaths it is lack of hygeine, nutrition and pregnancy checks.

Lack of intervention at the birth might be the case with some maternal and infant deaths but is definently not the majority. The above factors I mentioned are.

I totally agree with previous posters that intervention is sometimes needed but I do not consider ourselves lucky.... the system is subjected mums and babies to unnecessary intervention which is causing more complications which would not arise if left alone.

[KatiesMum]

Hi Katies mum :wave: the original post is in no way to disrespect women who are TTC or had intervention in their birth. It is just a general feeling I hear from women daily is that they are sick of being treated high risk just because they are pregnant. Also they are sick of not being given the information they need to make an informed choice in regards to the birth of their baby.

I can understand how when what you have been through and are still currently going through my post would put birth trauma into perspective as such a minor and petty issue in comparison. I

Thanks Tam and Spirited Birth

Please dont mis-understand - I was not in any way suggesting that birth trauma doesnt exist or is minor. To some it is very very major and life affecting .... I do understand that.

and I do agree that unwanted, unnecessary intervention can cause a great deal of emotional and physical difficulties.

But I do get to put a different perspective on things, and just see things a little differently. The same way that someone who lost a baby at birth, or had a special needs bub due to birth difficulties does.

I am not trying to upset or diminish anyone's experiences .... just putting a different light on the big picture

[Pax]

I am sorry but you cannot compare the above statistics from third world countires to developed nations with birth intervention.

From what I have researched it is not the lack of birth intervention in these countries which has caused maternal or infant deaths it is lack of hygeine, nutrition and pregnancy checks.

Lack of intervention at the birth might be the case with some maternal and infant deaths but is definently not the majority. The above factors I mentioned are.

I totally agree with previous posters that intervention is sometimes needed but I do not consider ourselves lucky.... the system is subjected mums and babies to unnecessary intervention which is causing more complications which would not arise if left alone.

all you need to do is read on this forum or similar the amount of health problems that are life threatening if it was not for intervention to realise that without it, we too would have 3rd world figures.

Not until i joined this forum did i realise how many things can go wrong during pregnancy.

even with good hygiene and diet..

[UmmInayah]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternal_death

the above stats (not sure on their accuracy as come from wiki) show the difference in maternal death in countries with safe intervention and those without.

I think we should never complain about our maternal health system ... we are very very lucky.

I agree. There is so much bloody complaining happening and not much appreciation.

[shed]

I agree. There is so much bloody complaining happening and not much appreciation.

I disagree. I think there should be more complaining. I hope it leads to a better system than the one we have. Unwanted intervention rates are too high. Caesarean rates are too high and women are coming out of our hospitals emotionally scarred and traumatised and babies lives are being put at risk.

This has got nothing to do with anyone's BIRTH CHOICES. That's the whole problem. Its also got nothing to do with necessary intervention (which is great, amazing and a miracle).

I can't believe anyone can disregard this so easily and say that women should appreciate being treated the way that some of them are being treated :thumbsdown::(.

Hopefully the Maternity Review will help make our system better. The fact that it has been recognised that there is a need for a Review speaks volumes.

[MrsMiggins]

I agree. There is so much bloody complaining happening and not much appreciation.
Well, I wouldn't say that.

I had 2 hospital births, an elective c/s & a VBAC attempt that ended in a repeat c/s.

While I am grateful for everything that happened to get my babies delivered safely, and myself there along with them, able to look after my new babies, I can certainly understand that not all women have positive birthing experiences.

Some due to too much intervention, others due to not enough.

Why should those who have had terribly traumatic births be made to feel as though their own experience is unimportant? Why should they not be vocal in speaking out about things that went wrong so that the same thing doesn't happen to other women?

In this case, we're talking about over-intervention. While I have repeatedly stated that I was grateful for the assistance rendered to me during my pregnancies, I have heard so, so many stories of women pressured into interventions that were unwanted and/or unnecessary under the guise of "policy". Many women are happy to trust the medical system to look after their babies & deliver them safe & sound regardless, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, if that's what you are happy to do. But then some women are not happy just to close their eyes & jump, faithul that "the system" will do the very best for them & their babies. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this either.

Birth is a natural process. Yes, of course things can & do go wrong, but that doesn't mean every single birth needs to be managed as though everyone is preparing for a worst case scenario.

We should all be free to educate ourselves about birth. We should all be free to have whatever interventions (or not) we deem necessary. We should all be given all the information we need to make these decisions to ensure the best & safest arrivals of all our little ones.

That doesn't necessarily mean we all disrespect the medical fraternity. I know some women have a difficult time trusting some Dr's/OBs/midwives etc for very valid reasons. But in my own experience, I have a great deal of respect for all the medical staff who were involved in the births of my babies - that doesn't mean we agreed on everything the whole way through. :)

[MyFourCubs]

We should all be free to educate ourselves about birth. We should all be free to have whatever interventions (or not) we deem necessary. We should all be given all the information we need to make these decisions to ensure the best & safest arrivals of all our little ones.



I think this is what it comes down to really. I support wholeheartedly women being informed, educated and respected throughout the pregnancy and birth process. If women want to homebirth or freebirth or vbac or whatever, I would not do any of this myself under andy circumstances but I respect the choices of other women- while I may not agree with them. However, I also believe that any midwife, obstetirician or other birth professional has the right to refuse to carry out births that they do not consider safe, (for legitimate and substantiated reasons.) If a woman wants to vba2c and there is considerable evidence that this would be unsafe- why should a doctor be coherced into supporting this? I believe in this case a woman should either take the advice of a medical professional on board or else birth at their own risk. the problem I have with all of this is that many of you sound like you are saying women should have the right to choose their birth- regardless of the circumstances. A case in point is a friend of mine who went into pre term labour at 32 weeks. She was fully dialated and there was no stopping the birth, however the baby was transverse, she was bleeding heavily and the baby was in distress. Her ob demanded a ceaserean to which she refused- she'd had 2 vaginal births and there was no way she wanted a c-section this time. She quite literally refused point blank the ceaserean. In the end, with the bub in major distress a social worker was summoned immediately as well as the head ob in the hospital who informed her if the bub was not delivered right then bu c-section they would both likely die. Obviously in the end she agreed and if not, the story would not have had a happy ending. :rolleyes:

So, women should have choices but so should the doctors and it shouldn't be an "us against them" mentality. Women should absolutely be educated and informed but they should also know when freedom of choice has become rediculous and life threatening. Obviously much of the problem lies in this grey area where there is not always a clear distiction and I agree that many ob's over react and use intervention out of fear or impatience. Where i get angry about it though is the constant utterance on this forum that birth is "safe" and "natural" and that we should all be able to do it without intervention. Sure, everybody throws in "oh except in a MINOR number of cases," but as a PP said there are MANY cases that require intervention in one form or another- it is NOT the absolute exception and you know what? I often get the feeling that others on this forum are more upset about the fact that I had a ceaserean than I am! I had two vaginal births that went to **** (even the completely drug free natural "straight forward" one!) I am fine with my ceaserean so maybe that's where i am different. *sigh* thas is why I hate this topic- it never ends!!!!!!!!!!!

I do think all the women in thsi thread have extremely valid points and both sides present an intelligent argument- but it's one of those topics that nobody will ever win!

*bigger sigh and a graceful exit, lol.*

[Verdi]

I think this is what it comes down to really. I support wholeheartedly women being informed, educated and respected throughout the pregnancy and birth process. If women want to homebirth or freebirth or vbac or whatever, I would not do any of this myself under andy circumstances but I respect the choices of other women- while I may not agree with them. However, I also believe that any midwife, obstetirician or other birth professional has the right to refuse to carry out births that they do not consider safe, (for legitimate and substantiated reasons.) If a woman wants to vba2c and there is considerable evidence that this would be unsafe- why should a doctor be coherced into supporting this? I believe in this case a woman should either take the advice of a medical professional on board or else birth at their own risk. the problem I have with all of this is that many of you sound like you are saying women should have the right to choose their birth- regardless of the circumstances. A case in point is a friend of mine who went into pre term labour at 32 weeks. She was fully dialated and there was no stopping the birth, however the baby was transverse, she was bleeding heavily and the baby was in distress. Her ob demanded a ceaserean to which she refused- she'd had 2 vaginal births and there was no way she wanted a c-section this time. She quite literally refused point blank the ceaserean. In the end, with the bub in major distress a social worker was summoned immediately as well as the head ob in the hospital who informed her if the bub was not delivered right then bu c-section they would both likely die. Obviously in the end she agreed and if not, the story would not have had a happy ending. :rolleyes:

So, women should have choices but so should the doctors and it shouldn't be an "us against them" mentality. Women should absolutely be educated and informed but they should also know when freedom of choice has become rediculous and life threatening. Obviously much of the problem lies in this grey area where there is not always a clear distiction and I agree that many ob's over react and use intervention out of fear or impatience. Where i get angry about it though is the constant utterance on this forum that birth is "safe" and "natural" and that we should all be able to do it without intervention. Sure, everybody throws in "oh except in a MINOR number of cases," but as a PP said there are MANY cases that require intervention in one form or another- it is NOT the absolute exception and you know what? I often get the feeling that others on this forum are more upset about the fact that I had a ceaserean than I am! I had two vaginal births that went to **** (even the completely drug free natural "straight forward" one I am fine with my ceaserean so maybe that's where i am different. *sigh* thais is why I hate this topic- it never ends!!!!!!!!!!!

I do think all the women in thsi thread have extremely valid points and both sides present an intelligent argument- but it's one of those topics that nobody will ever win!

*bigger sigh and a graceful exit, lol.*
Brilliant:thumbsup:

[Duchessa]

Just out of curiosity...

Mythreecubs, if your friend had have refused to have a c/sect, do you think she should have been forced? Drugged and then incised against her wishes?

[MyFourCubs]

No I don't believe in holding down anybody and drugging them against their wishes- however, if the baby had of died than she would have forever had a mighty big bag of guilt on her conscience :gloomy:and I wouldn't wish that on anybody either. The outcome would have also affected everybody else involved, (the ob, nurses, families etc) which I don't think is fair either. My point Duchessa was that there needs to be a line between reasonable choice and insanity.

[MrsMiggins]

I think this is what it comes down to really. I support wholeheartedly women being informed, educated and respected throughout the pregnancy and birth process. If women want to homebirth or freebirth or vbac or whatever, I would not do any of this myself under andy circumstances but I respect the choices of other women- while I may not agree with them. However, I also believe that any midwife, obstetirician or other birth professional has the right to refuse to carry out births that they do not consider safe, (for legitimate and substantiated reasons.) If a woman wants to vba2c and there is considerable evidence that this would be unsafe- why should a doctor be coherced into supporting this? I believe in this case a woman should either take the advice of a medical professional on board or else birth at their own risk. the problem I have with all of this is that many of you sound like you are saying women should have the right to choose their birth- regardless of the circumstances. A case in point is a friend of mine who went into pre term labour at 32 weeks. She was fully dialated and there was no stopping the birth, however the baby was transverse, she was bleeding heavily and the baby was in distress. Her ob demanded a ceaserean to which she refused- she'd had 2 vaginal births and there was no way she wanted a c-section this time. She quite literally refused point blank the ceaserean. In the end, with the bub in major distress a social worker was summoned immediately as well as the head ob in the hospital who informed her if the bub was not delivered right then bu c-section they would both likely die. Obviously in the end she agreed and if not, the story would not have had a happy ending. :rolleyes:

So, women should have choices but so should the doctors and it shouldn't be an "us against them" mentality. Women should absolutely be educated and informed but they should also know when freedom of choice has become rediculous and life threatening. Obviously much of the problem lies in this grey area where there is not always a clear distiction and I agree that many ob's over react and use intervention out of fear or impatience. Where i get angry about it though is the constant utterance on this forum that birth is "safe" and "natural" and that we should all be able to do it without intervention. Sure, everybody throws in "oh except in a MINOR number of cases," but as a PP said there are MANY cases that require intervention in one form or another- it is NOT the absolute exception and you know what? I often get the feeling that others on this forum are more upset about the fact that I had a ceaserean than I am! I had two vaginal births that went to **** (even the completely drug free natural "straight forward" one!) I am fine with my ceaserean so maybe that's where i am different. *sigh* thas is why I hate this topic- it never ends!!!!!!!!!!!

I do think all the women in thsi thread have extremely valid points and both sides present an intelligent argument- but it's one of those topics that nobody will ever win!

*bigger sigh and a graceful exit, lol.*
Personally, I think that having no regard for medical advice is potentially dangerous and should not be encouraged. No-one is arguing that there is a time & place for medical intervention. However the perceived notion that all pregnancies are to be treated as a highly medical procedure is, IMO, over-management. It doesn't have to be that way.

During both my pregnancies, I have happily agreed to scans, tests, and other things that I have deemed necessary. I have not given my consent to procedures that I have deemed unnecessary (eg: I told my OB I would not consent to continuous monitoring during my VBAC).

I strongly feel that all women should have a choice as to how their pregnancies & births are "managed". If a woman chooses to avoid intervention unless it is deemed necessary, then this should be respected.

I agree it shouldn't be an Us vs Them mentality, we should all work together for all women & babies to have the births they want & deserve.

[MyFourCubs]

Agreeeeeeeeeeed! :yes:

[KatiesMum]

Everyone seems to agree that intervention when necessary is a good thing .... and that unnecessary intervention is a bad thing.

The thing we need to determine is exactly
- when is intervention necessary .... and
- who gets to determine that

For many many women, this is determined by their obstetrician. Obs' like every other profession have great ones and ordinary ones. Even the great ones have been in situations where intervention was necessary but didnt happen - and unfortunately this will tend to color their opinion....and if in doubt, most will come down on the side of early intervention rather than let it go and end up in the 1 in 100 ( or 1 in 1000, or even 1 in 10,000) situation where it has all gone horribly pear shaped.

At the end of the day, earlier intervention if unnecessary still results (usually) in the birth of a healthy baby. Later intervention that should have happened earlier (or none when it was needed) often results in birth defects, severe injuries or the death of baby and sometimes Mum too.

Im not saying that everyone should just accept early intervention ..... but its not the greatest evil in the world either.

[MyFourCubs]

:iagree:Very well said.......Hence the "grey area" I was talking about where there is no clear indication of what is "neccessary" and "unneccessary"..... obs think they should be the ones to determine it and (some) women think THEY should...... hence this whole flippin debate.

[PrincessDani]

We've been trying for a baby for years and our only sucessful attempt resulted in miscarraige :( I dont give a stuff what my birth is like, i'd just like to have one. I dont care if I'm chained to a b!oody bed and have birth 'done' to me, I really dont. i"m sorry if that makes me stupid, I'm sorry if I'm letting women down. You know what else I dont care either. I just the system we have. I've worked in Asia and let me tell you something I am damn greatful for our matenal health care. Women see a Dr if they're lucky and then they are left to their own devises. Its a damn tragedy of what becomes of some of these women. Yes we cant compare us to third world countries:ecomcity::ecomcity::ecomcity:, but still we have one of the best maternal health in the world and I appreciate that. I would just like a chance to use it for 40+ weeks.

[shed]

I think its important to note that research has shown that a natural birth with no unnecessary intervention is the best thing for the baby. Mother Nature does sometimes get it wrong, sadly, and that's where the amazing advances in technology come in, and they ARE amazing and I am so grateful we have them and I wouldn't hesitate to use them if I felt my baby was in danger.

Interfering in the natural process for no reason is not the best thing for the baby. And the health of the baby IS the most important thing. So we should be striving for the unhindered process when we can, for the baby's sake, not only the mothers. It's never been all about the mother and I am not sure why people seem to think that it is?

Being able to trust your careprovider is extremely important. All you can do is hope they are worthy of that trust. The actual intervention is not at issue. Its the misuse of it and the betrayal of trust that it represents. It p!sses me off that women are constantly made to feel ungrateful.

[MyFourCubs]

OMG, it seems I may have learned to multi-quote FINALLY after 1000+ posts, lordy my how did it take me this long?:laughing:


We've been trying for a baby for years and our only sucessful attempt resulted in miscarraige I dont give a stuff what my birth is like, i'd just like to have one. I dont care if I'm chained to a b!oody bed and have birth 'done' to me, I really dont. i"m sorry if that makes me stupid, I'm sorry if I'm letting women down. You know what else I dont care either. I just the system we have. I've worked in Asia and let me tell you something I am damn greatful for our matenal health care. Women see a Dr if they're lucky and then they are left to their own devises. Its a damn tragedy of what becomes of some of these women. Yes we cant compare us to third world countries:ecomcity::ecomcity::ecomcity:, but still we have one of the best maternal health in the world and I appreciate that. I would just like a chance to use it for 40+ weeks.

You are not the first to feel like this on these boards, it must be very very difficult to read threads like this and I send you lots of :hugs:You make some very valid points my dear.

[misskittyfantastico]

We've been trying for a baby for years and our only sucessful attempt resulted in miscarraige :( I dont give a stuff what my birth is like, i'd just like to have one. I dont care if I'm chained to a b!oody bed and have birth 'done' to me, I really dont. i"m sorry if that makes me stupid, I'm sorry if I'm letting women down. You know what else I dont care either. I just the system we have. I've worked in Asia and let me tell you something I am damn greatful for our matenal health care. Women see a Dr if they're lucky and then they are left to their own devises. Its a damn tragedy of what becomes of some of these women. Yes we cant compare us to third world countries:ecomcity::ecomcity::ecomcity:, but still we have one of the best maternal health in the world and I appreciate that. I would just like a chance to use it for 40+ weeks.

You aren't letting anyone down, let alone "womanhood" by desperately wanting a child. I'm sorry that these threads rub salt into a gaping wound.

The thing is that the whole intervention caper is about the system as a whole. When I KNOW that every woman is receiving the care she needs, that her choices are being respected, that she is being heard...then I'll stop being annoying.

I imagine we do all sound like whiny ingrates to you but I hope that because of our whining, you don't HAVE to have anything less than what you choose in order to birth.

[shed]

Aahh.... there have been a few specific threads on here that very obviously make the point that the wellbeing of the MOTHER comes first- not the baby as the baby is not a seperate entity until after the birth and therefor it is the MOTHER who should have all say in the desicion making process until the baby is born... I will not reference the thread(s) as no way am I opening that can of worms again but I'm sure many will know what I'm talking about.........;)

I have never seen anyone say that the wellbeing of the mother comes before the baby. I have also never met anyone IRL who says or thinks that.

I doubt you could reference such a thread, or even one post that says anything like that.

Its good to see that people who do think that others are saying this have completely misunderstood the point though. Makes it more clear for everyone.

[Duchessa]

I find it just mind blowingly ridiculous that every time this particular topic comes up certain parties get all defensive about our medical system and about the health of babies.

Firstly, the medical system remains good and gets better via complaint, critique, discussion, breaking down old and outdated methods etc. WTF would you just step back from our duty as consumers of it's services to maintain it's excellence and say "oh but it is so good, women in third world countries die of fly blow so we ought to all be so grateful"???

Secondly, natural birth is good for babies and motherhood and birth isn't just about the birth!!! People who support and promote unhindered birth do so because both the short and long term outcomes for mothers and babies, in a normal & uncomplicated birth, are far better than a birth that involves induction, drugs, mechanical intervention and surgery.

[misskittyfantastico]

I think what pips me is that, whilst the OP is undoubtably a heated topic, it doesn't HAVE to get all snarky - from EITHER side. I do feel though, that the thread we're all secretly referencing has no place in the discussion. at least when it's not able to be discussed without the cr@p..perhaps I'll red triangle myself...and then I'll eat my rissole.

[sam's mum]

I find it just mind blowingly ridiculous that every time this particular topic comes up certain parties get all defensive about our medical system and about the health of babies.

Firstly, the medical system remains good and gets better via complaint, critique, discussion, breaking down old and outdated methods etc. WTF would you just step back from our duty as consumers of it's services to maintain it's excellence and say "oh but it is so good, women in third world countries die of fly blow so we ought to all be so grateful"???

Secondly, natural birth is good for babies and motherhood and birth isn't just about the birth!!! People who support and promote unhindered birth do so because both the short and long term outcomes for mothers and babies, in a normal & uncomplicated birth, are far better than a birth that involves induction, drugs, mechanical intervention and surgery.

see, I don't have a problem with most of the things that are being said. BUT, it is


Childbirth is a safe as life itself :flowerz:

that gets my hackles up. yahoo for all the people that it is safe for. three cheers for those that don't need the intervention. a million :hugs: to those that had unnecessary and unwanted intervention. but childbirth is not always safe.

talk about the need to educate, and to avoid unnecessary intervention, and the need to advocate and control your own birth, but remember that intervention is sometimes necessary. I have nightmares about what would have happened if I had lived in a different time period (a reflection of my literary choices :o).

[JATS]

if I had been 'left alone' my baby would have died and so quite possibly would I.

:iagree: Me too, I went in to the OR terrified of what was about to happen to me because of all the anti c/s waffle around, I'm here to tell you I am so grateful for the team of professionals who cared for me. My c/s was fantastic, my recovery was amazing and yeah I am an avid member of the "As long as you have a healthy baby it does not matter how it is born" brigade.

Traumatic birth is traumatic birth, v/b or c/s I know women who've been traumatized by both, and for them too it doesn't matter which way the baby came out a healthy baby is the ultimate outcome!

[Nowhere]

I find it just mind blowingly ridiculous that every time this particular topic comes up certain parties get all defensive about our medical system and about the health of babies.

Firstly, the medical system remains good and gets better via complaint, critique, discussion, breaking down old and outdated methods etc. WTF would you just step back from our duty as consumers of it's services to maintain it's excellence and say "oh but it is so good, women in third world countries die of fly blow so we ought to all be so grateful"???

Secondly, natural birth is good for babies and motherhood and birth isn't just about the birth!!! People who support and promote unhindered birth do so because both the short and long term outcomes for mothers and babies, in a normal & uncomplicated birth, are far better than a birth that involves induction, drugs, mechanical intervention and surgery.

Im assuming im one of these certain types of people you are refering to, but no im not defensive about natural births being the best option when ou have a healthy bub and a healthy mum the opposite infact, I have alot of respect for the home bithing mummies on this forum, but I am also thankful that there is medical help available when needed, Im not ashamed of that fact i dont beleive that makes me any less of a person than you, I dont beleive that it makes my opinion any less valid than yours.


I think its great to educate women on the positves of natural births with no intervention and home births and lotus births etc but when doing this I think that some people need to remember you catch more flys with honey then vinigar, and that maybe the way to help people understand about the natural way in a positive manner instead of starting with how bad medical intervention is.

There needs to be a balance, in a perfect world we would all fal pregnent the first month and carry to 40 weeks and have a wonderful homebirthing experience but the fact is its not always the way that it works in the real world, there are babies that go into distress there are mums that dont dialtate, there are babies that get stuck, there are some women that try that hardest to have a natural birth but cant. and yes there will always be women that choose to have a C section or an induction or epidural etc

99 percent of mums make the choices they make becase they belive they are making the best choice for there baby, right or wrong we all have the same motivation as to why we do what we do.

[Duchessa]

Im assuming im one of these certain types of people you are refering to

Your assumption would be incorrect if the rest of the sentence is true :) I am also glad that we have a proficient medical system. I also think our opinions are equally valid - glad we got that sorted :)

[spiritedbirth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiritedbirth http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?p=3314504#post3314504)
Childbirth is a safe as life itself :flowerz:



that gets my hackles up. yahoo for all the people that it is safe for. three cheers for those that don't need the intervention. a million :hugs: to those that had unnecessary and unwanted intervention. but childbirth is not always safe.



Yes but that is the point exactly....life is not always safe is it??? The risks are everywhere you go in life the same with childbirth. There is no way I would put my hand up for unnecessary intervention just to avoid what could happen in childbirth if I am having a heathy and happy pregnancy...

Like the old CPD diagnosis? Yes it may happen and I have come accross it once, it is so very rare though.... Look at how many women these days are being made to elect a caesearen because of the baby being too big for her to birth. This is what I am talking about. Women are not allowed to even attempt labour if they have suspected CPD. When you really start researching it, it is really a crock of ****!!! I know this will offend some people but I had to get it out there...

I can see no where in any of my posts I have said intervention should never be used, it is the overuse of it I am complaining about.

People (midwives, doctors, support people) not tuning into birthing women just tuning into moniters, drips, charts etc...it really upsets me to see women being mistreated when the intervention could be avoided in the majority of circumstances.

[RedPanda]

I'm not going to sift through the seven pages (:eek: too many!), so I'll just answer the OP. I think it depends so much on the person. Personally, I've had one fairly normal birth, and one straightforward VB with no intervention, so I don't know how I'd feel if I ended up with a c-sect.

I would never say the "At least you have a healthy baby" thing to a woman who had expressed anxiety/traumatic thoughts about her birth. However, obviously where a baby's life is in jeopardy (legitimately), then even a complicated birth with a healthy baby is the best outcome. Having said that, the mother still has a right to her feelings. Birth trauma isn't exclusive to c/sec mothers or mothers who have had intervention.

[naiwen]

Q : As long as you have a healthy baby it does not matter how it is born?

A : I dont know, I have never had a healthy baby, I know it gives people the irrits when I say this stuff but I dont care, childbirth is not a safe, harmonious, serene experience which is always best done naturally, it is messy, bloody and carrys with it a large number of potential complications.

For me a CS was a tool which was deployed to save the life of my my child and my own life, I didnt think about whether people would think I had a good enough reason to have one I just agreed to whatever was neccessary to save DS.

I had birth trauma because my birth was traumatic (der lol) not because I didnt think it was 'good enough'.

I am all for women not being subjected to unnessecary intervention but I do get annoyed when people appoint themselves as arbitrators of what was and was not unnescesary intervention for other women.

If a women and her Dr agree something was neccessary who are we to say otherwise?

[shed]

Many of them wouldn't homebirth at all without the fact that there is medical help available when needed!! that is what makes homebirth so safe!! its the best of both worlds.



I am all for women not being subjected to unnessecary intervention but I do get annoyed when people appoint themselves as arbitrators of what was and was not unnescesary intervention for other women.

I agree, although I don't really see alot of that. Its usually the woman herself who is angry. We all need to care though because its already established that there is too much unnecessary intervention. That comes from the medical establishment itself. If they are saying it about themselves then who are we to argue.

Its not an individual issue. It affects everybody because we all use the system.

[Amara]

I think the reason that many women get disappointed with their birth experience is that they expect too much out of it in the first place.

Most women will not experience a labour that has easily managed pain & no intervention but by reading some posts on the internet women can be lead to believe that this is possible for us all. It simply isn't the truth.

I went into the whole birth experience with an open mind. Whatever it took to get a live baby then that was fine with me. I did not have a birth plan. I was sure I'd have an epidural if the pain got bad enough.

In the end I had a long painful labour but didn't ask for an epi, just managed on gas & peth. I required assistance as 15 hours of stage 1 and almost 2 hours of stage 2 had exhausted me. I welcomed a little synto, a snip snip & a vac extraction.

I was not at all disappointed in how it all went. A little traumatised by it but not disappointed. I just didn't realise how much labour could hurt. I feel I wasn't disappointed because I did not plan exactly what I wanted to happen during the labour.

The birth involved shoulder dystocia so I did need the intervention. I had been upright throughout the labour & I still needed it. Who knows what would've happened if I'd been let go longer.

[Tam-I-Am]

I disagree with you entirely Amara.

For a start - there's a world of difference between being 'disappointed' with your birthing experience and being traumatised by it - to call post-birth trauma 'disappointment' diminishes the woman's experience in the extreme. Some women suffer psychological and psychiatric conditions post-birth because of the trauma they have experienced - ie Post-Natal Depression, Post-Partum Psychosis, Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. These don't come about because of 'disappointment'.

I also think that to not expect (and therefore, not educate yourself, or plan your birth preference etc) leaves a birthing woman in an EXTREMELY vulnerable position.

I think that the main reason so many women are traumatised by their birthing experiences is because they are taken advantage of in such a vulnerable situation. See, the thing is - BECAUSE I was so educated with my 2nd labour, if my homebirthing plans had not worked out, it would have been because they just COULDN'T - because there was true medical need for intervention to occur. Not because of any of the other myriad reasons why women are subject to unnecessary intervention (ie hospital policy, doctor's fears of litigation, 'clock-watching' and the list goes on). If I had known that I had done EVERYTHING possible to ensure the outcome that I desired, and was still not able to acheive that - I would have been disappointed, certainly. But I hope that I wouldn't have been traumatised - because I would have KNOWN that it was unavoidable.

I believe that the key is MORE self-education, MORE knowledge (birthing women's, I mean), MORE assertiveness with careproviders, MORE expectation, MORE planning - not less.

[Verdi]

i have had 4 kids with the first i wrote a birth plan - all **** was the birth plan cause in reality when it's your first you really do not know how you will cope - after the first one i just went with the flow - if i wanted an epi i got one - if i wanted to walk i walked if i wanted to sit on the toilet i did-- The medical team was fantastic i did everything i wanted with all my births was never ever forced into anything.
in the end if any of my babies needed a cesar i would trust my medical team to do what is the best interest of my child, to me my pregnancy was not about how i want my birth - well not the full focus but i wanted to have healthy babies if they came out alive and screaming in the end then who friggen cares if ended up with a cesar.*which i am sure we all agree on that*

i think women who want to have hospital births like me need to really get proactive about picking a great care provider not all Obs are happy intervention - search and search cause amongst the thousands there are pearlers.

personally i wouldn't homebirth -Ever!! LOl i liked my cushy hospy stay!
But i have to say i don't believe that homebirthers are not grateful of medical staff - it is just sometimes alot of thread on BH that don't potray our medical staff in the nicest ways. *not homebirthers just in general*

All i can say if you are happy with your birth and your baby is healthy thats all that matters.
Induced, drugs, cesar or homebirth they are all great if you felt they were. :flowerz:

[KatiesMum]

I agree, although I don't really see alot of that. Its usually the woman herself who is angry. We all need to care though because its already established that there is too much unnecessary intervention. That comes from the medical establishment itself. If they are saying it about themselves then who are we to argue.

Its not an individual issue. It affects everybody because we all use the system.

I dont know what version of bubhub you get Shed .... but I want that one :p

I actually see quite a bit of over the top activist advice on here ....

as an example - a while ago was a thread from a hubber who wanted a natural birth and was looking for some advice on birthing positions to acheive what she wanted. She had talked to her obs (she was going private) who was supportive of her vbac attempt who had told her to do some research into birthing positions etc, but had said 'remember that you may still have to have a c/s' and that together they would assess how her particular complications were going once she was in labour and he could see how it all was panning out.

To me, this seemed an ok approach .... but she got a LOT of advice that he was priming her for a c/s and she should
- change care providers immediately
- run as fast as she could
- go immediately to a public hospy or birthing centre as otherwise she definately wouldnt get a vbac
- homebirth as this was her only chance ...

some of these things may have been said in jest ... but the prevailing attitude seems to be - if you have any kind of intervention, it could have been prevented and your care provider should have stayed out of it :eek:




For a start - there's a world of difference between being 'disappointed' with your birthing experience and being traumatised by it - to call post-birth trauma 'disappointment' diminishes the woman's experience in the extreme. Some women suffer psychological and psychiatric conditions post-birth because of the trauma they have experienced - ie Post-Natal Depression, Post-Partum Psychosis, Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. These don't come about because of 'disappointment'.

I also think that to not expect (and therefore, not educate yourself, or plan your birth preference etc) leaves a birthing woman in an EXTREMELY vulnerable position.


:iagree: there is a world of difference between disappointment and birth-trauma.

[misskittyfantastico]

I dont know what version of bubhub you get Shed .... but I want that one :p

I actually see quite a bit of over the top activist advice on here ....

as an example - a while ago was a thread from a hubber who wanted a natural birth and was looking for some advice on birthing positions to acheive what she wanted. She had talked to her obs (she was going private) who was supportive of her vbac attempt who had told her to do some research into birthing positions etc, but had said 'remember that you may still have to have a c/s' and that together they would assess how her particular complications were going once she was in labour and he could see how it all was panning out.

To me, this seemed an ok approach .... but she got a LOT of advice that he was priming her for a c/s and she should
- change care providers immediately
- run as fast as she could
- go immediately to a public hospy or birthing centre as otherwise she definately wouldnt get a vbac
- homebirth as this was her only chance ...

some of these things may have been said in jest ... but the prevailing attitude seems to be - if you have any kind of intervention, it could have been prevented and your care provider should have stayed out of it :eek:
.

I remember the thread you're referring too, and (This is possibly because I'm an over the top activist:p) and I didn't see an issue with it.

I think the passion that comes from many hubbers regarding birth choices (well at least for me) stems from the fact that Australia's "default setting" regarding birthing is an interventionist (I'm making up words now) one.

A run of the mill, healthy mum needs a birthplan, a document just so she can be left the heck alone! Births have become "managed", controlled, not only in extraordinary circumstances but in the ordinary ones too.

[NibbleCurlynBub]

I remember the thread you're referring too, and (This is possibly because I'm an over the top activist:p) and I didn't see an issue with it.

I think the passion that comes from many hubbers regarding birth choices (well at least for me) stems from the fact that Australia's "default setting" regarding birthing is an interventionist (I'm making up words now) one.

A run of the mill, healthy mum needs a birthplan, a document just so she can be left the heck alone! Births have become "managed", controlled, not only in extraordinary circumstances but in the ordinary ones too.
:iagree: :iagree:

:yelclap:

[KatiesMum]

I remember the thread you're referring too, and (This is possibly because I'm an over the top activist:p) and I didn't see an issue with it.

I think the passion that comes from many hubbers regarding birth choices (well at least for me) stems from the fact that Australia's "default setting" regarding birthing is an interventionist (I'm making up words now) one.


I dont consider you to be an over the top activist. I have always considered you an ordinary activist :laughing: (honestly I have usually found your advice/posts to be somewhat reasonable - even when I dont agree them :p)

Seriously though - I guess we will have to disagree on where the 'default setting' should be.

See I dont have too much of a problem with early intervention even if it turns out to be unncessary.

For me - it comes down to consequences. The consequences of early intervention are - if its unnecessary, you have had a less satisfactory birth, but still get a healthy baby.

The consequences of not intervening early enough are much more drastic.

[misskittyfantastico]

I dont consider you to be an over the top activist. I have always considered you an ordinary activist :laughing: (honestly I have usually found your advice/posts to be somewhat reasonable - even when I dont agree them :p)

Seriously though - I guess we will have to disagree on where the 'default setting' should be.

See I dont have too much of a problem with early intervention even if it turns out to be unncessary.

For me - it comes down to consequences. The consequences of early intervention are - if its unnecessary, you have had a less satisfactory birth, but still get a healthy baby.

The consequences of not intervening early enough are much more drastic.

I reckon you're a good sort too:p

[Tam-I-Am]

I dont consider you to be an over the top activist. I have always considered you an ordinary activist :laughing: (honestly I have usually found your advice/posts to be somewhat reasonable - even when I dont agree them :p)

Seriously though - I guess we will have to disagree on where the 'default setting' should be.

See I dont have too much of a problem with early intervention even if it turns out to be unncessary.

For me - it comes down to consequences. The consequences of early intervention are - if its unnecessary, you have had a less satisfactory birth, but still get a healthy baby.

The consequences of not intervening early enough are much more drastic.

See, that's where I have a problem. Because, quite frankly - you're wrong.

A baby has a 3 times HIGHER chance of dying with a caesarean section than with a vaginal birth. Given that the cascade of intervention often ends in unnecessary c-sect - this means that babies are dying unnecessarily. Besides higher death rates, high intervention levels are more likely to result in a very ill baby - for example - intervetion is more likely to lead to a stressed baby. A stressed baby is more likely to meconium in the womb, aspirate it, and suffer from meconium aspiration syndrome which can cause serious and life-threatening respitory problems.

Additionally LOTS of babies (even in Australia) die or become seriously ill from formula (either being prepared badly, being contaminated, allergy issues etc).The cascade of intervention is FAR more likely to lead to breastfeeding problems resulting in the mother giving up on breastfeeding.

A traumatic birth is far more likely to be a risk factor in the mother developing a serious post-birth mental health complaint. People with depression, psychosis and severe anxiety (as in PTSD) are far more likely to attempt suicide than those who are mentally well. People with PND and Post-partum Psychosis are also many many more times likely to harm their own baby than mother who are mentally stable.

And that's just the beginning.

There are LOTS AND LOTS of reasons why unnecessary intervetion is not only traumatic for the mother - but dangerous for both mother and baby. THIS is why pro-natural birth activists are so outspoken. Intervention is DANGEROUS when its unncessary. It can be life saving - but should only EVER be used in extreme cases where its benefits outweigh the risks to mother and baby.

Believe it or not, we're not all "natural birth, rah rah rah - its every woman's right to turn into a primal cave woman for the sake of it!" Its not a competition, nobody wins medals for natural birth, and no pro-natural birther thinks so. But unless the intervention is life-saving, in which case its necessary, its effects can be potentially life-threatening.

[KatiesMum]

I would be interested in stats for that Tam (the 3 times higher chance of dying bit that is) as all of the stats I have seen show that the neonatal and perinatal death rates have slowly gone down over the last 15 years or so.

Yes admission to SCN etc have increased, mainly for breathing issues, but (and I havent looked into this part very much ...only an overall impression) the length of stays in SCN have reduced ... which I interpret as the baby has some issues when first born that are relatively easily overcome.

To me - that means that more babies have breathing issues at birth, but less babies die.


I do agree with your points about post-natal maternal health though .....

[naiwen]

I have to question that statistic about 3 times more babies dying with a ceasarean than with a vaginal birth because if that includes those babies who they are trying to save with a CS then there are always going to be higher mortality rates with a CS.

It's the same as saying maternal mortality rates are higher with CS, no doubt they are becuase women like me who were critically ill when the CS was decided are always going to have a higher mortality rate, 24 weekers are often born via CS and they have a high mortatlity rate.

I would be very interested to know just how many babies die as a result of FF in Australia each year because LOTS could be what 100's, 1000's? I know BF contributed to my baby going back into NICU. Although FF is somewhat OT to the early intervention debate IMO.

I know women who wanted intervention even though they were not an extreem case, should they be forced into a drug free homebirth just to keep you happy?

Some women really do want and get epidurals and are happy with them, and some women have a drug free birth and can still be traumatised by it. As has been said before in this thread you dont have to have a CS to have birth trauma.

Early intervention saves babies, I have seen it with my own eyes many times.

[spiritedbirth]

I fully support intervention if this is the womans choice and she feels she was not mistreated or been misinformed about her birth. If it is used unnecessarily which leads to an unwanted caeserean or a traumatic vaginal birth than it is a different story and this is what I was trying to discuss..

[Tam-I-Am]

The study that I'm referencing was one run by the Centre of Disease Control in Atlanta, Georgia, USA - and the statistic is in reference to PLANNED caesareans, it doesn't factor in emergency caesareans.

A write up can be found here, (http://www.news-medical.net/?id=19965) and another one here (http://www.nswmidwives.com.au/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=1GSXUFi%2FVtc%3D&tabid=87&mid=521).

Then there are the any number of studies regarding this very topic, as listed on the caesarean awareness website - here (http://gainesville.ican-online.org/Studies.htm).

And an excellent article of the risks of intervention/Unnecessary caesareans by a journalist for the ABC here (http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2115213.htm).

I'll find the stuff about formula feeding being risky later...I'm really tired now :)


I know women who wanted intervention even though they were not an extreem case, should they be forced into a drug free homebirth just to keep you happy?

Me? No! In fact, I've said repeatedly (including in this thread) that a woman should have the right to chose - so long as she's making a truly informed choice!

This information threatens no-one. Nobody is going to come along and snatch the right for women to choose intervention away from them - but they should have access to the TRUTH. To the real risks and benefits of various types of intervention. And its clear that not all care providers ARE giving all the information.

[naiwen]

There are LOTS AND LOTS of reasons why unnecessary intervetion is not only traumatic for the mother - but dangerous for both mother and baby. THIS is why pro-natural birth activists are so outspoken. Intervention is DANGEROUS when its unncessary. It can be life saving - but should only EVER be used in extreme cases where its benefits outweigh the risks to mother and baby.


Highlighting by me :)

That's the part of your post I was responding too, if you think it should only be used in extreme cases then you dont think women should be choosing it when the situation is not extreme?

And that IMO is wrong, I knew about the risks of an epidural before 12 weeks :D, but I would still have chosen one if I had wanted it if I had of had a normal non extreme VB.

RE the study while I agree that yes CS is more dangerous (it's surgery lol), many women who have a planned CS choose that for medical reasons often because they are high risk.

Multiple pregnancys, extreme obesity etc.

I think informed consent is vital and we should all be pushing for that but I do not agree with pushing a message that says intervention is bad, only give into it if it's life or death.

[~Emmylou~]

This information threatens no-one. Nobody is going to come along and snatch the right for women to choose intervention away from them - but they should have access to the TRUTH. To the real risks and benefits of various types of intervention. And its clear that not all care providers ARE giving all the information.

Rock on Tam.

I'm always really interested in debates about whether or not intervention rates in birth are too high. Especially in the context of "OB bashing". Because the RANZCOG (Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists) FREELY ADMITS that intervention rates in Australia are TOO HIGH.

That is not in dispute, even by those who are having the finger pointed at them. The only thing in dispute are the reasons why Australian women are experiencing such high levels of intervention in birth.

[naiwen]

*Waves mainstream hand in the air*

I think one of the reasons a Australian intervention levels are so high is that OB led care is normal here, in many European countries you only see OB's if something goes wrong, the midwives do all the check ups and are great for low risk pregnant women. I found it strange when I moved here and found out it was the norm to have OB led care (for women with PHI anyway). The irony of that is I would have been better of with OB care but then I ended up high risk.

Free homebirths (ie free midwives) would probably help a bit as well.

The other thing is a fear that is instilled in us about childbirth (rightly in my case haha) by our mothers and aunts, I have heard so many older women telling younger ones all the horror stories about 3 day labours and 70 stitches etc. That makes women who are otherwise low risk and prime candidates for intervention free birth want intervention if it will save them from the horror they have been warned about.

All JMO of course.

[KatiesMum]

If you had intervention in your birth you are no less of a person because of it..I just feel if a woman has a very high interventional birth the worst thing you could say to her is "At least you have a healthy baby" This statement in no way takes away the physical and emotional scarring from a horrific birth, which most possibly could have been avoided with a few of the points I mentioned above.


(my bold)

Whilst I appreciate your intent is to raise awareness and try to reduce unnecessary intervention in otherwise uncomplicated births ....

statements like the above really do upset me. To me - that is implying that you determine that everyones intervention could most possibly have been avoided? :hair:



I have had another look at the stats that I consider factual, relevant and substantiated .... the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare - Australian Mothers and Babies. (link (http://www.npsu.unsw.edu.au/NPSUweb.nsf/page/National+Perinatal+Reports)) ... and found the following :

- instrumental deliveries (forceps / vacumm) have not increased between the period 1996 - 2005. Stayed at around 11% of births
- c/s have increased from 19.5% in 1996 to 30.3% in 2005.
- neonatal death rates in Australia (ie deaths within 28 days of birth) have stayed at around 3 per 1000 births since 1992 - declining from 6.6 per 1000 births in 1973.

[misskittyfantastico]

*Waves mainstream hand in the air*

I think one of the reasons a Australian intervention levels are so high is that OB led care is normal here, in many European countries you only see OB's if something goes wrong, the midwives do all the check ups and are great for low risk pregnant women. I found it strange when I moved here and found out it was the norm to have OB led care (for women with PHI anyway). The irony of that is I would have been better of with OB care but then I ended up high risk.


Indeed, I think we have a snobbery about PHI...I know that my parents and DH's have pushed this idea of MUST HAVE PHI onto both of us. Consequently you get an Ob as your carer. I AM high risk (by definition) but I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree that we should follow a different path, as a country in terms of our maternal care.

[naiwen]

I think (although have never been there) that USA is similar in that OB led care is considered de rigeur for all women who can afford it.

There is a similar thing with paeds, in the UK you saw a CHN or a GP unless your were in hospital or SN etc as a child, here and even more so in the USA people are keen to have a paed even if their child is not and has never been sick.

Once again it's ironic because DS has seen dozens of paeds lol but he was high needs.

Am I making sense here? At all LOL?

[misskittyfantastico]

You are to me...which could be dangerous:p I think that our maternal health system, our child health system our health system as a system (:p) needs a HUGE overall. Hopefully the maternal health review may help with some changes in at least one aspect of my gripe.

[naiwen]

Your sig is driving me nuts BTW, I keep getting that Tom Jones song playing in my head everytime I read it!

[misskittyfantastico]

Your sig is driving me nuts BTW, I keep getting that Tom Jones song playing in my head everytime I read it!

Woah a whoa a woh woh:D

[MsTruth]

I must be one unusual (or would some say mislead/freaky/uneducated) women because I loved my c-section, would happily have one again, DS scored 10 on all Apgar tests, I happily FF my DS, and while on the subject (in a round about way) I happily use disposables, will put DS in childcare to return to my career part time, use a dummy and the list probably goes on. It never ceases to amaze me how focused some women get about these topics online - I am yet to actually ever meet a woman who is so pre-occupied about the above as I have found in this forum.

I for one think a home birth is crazy and would never put myself or my baby in that position - I like the fact that in a hospital I have access to all the medical intervention (I prefer to call it expertise or resources) that I may need or want.

I have to say that I am definately one of those women who agree that what matters is that the baby is born safely and is healthy. I went into the journey of pregnancy and birth with a completely open mind and I believe this contributed to me having a happy birth, I didn't even have the common baby blues at any stage and I will happily have a c-section next time if I and my medical team think it is the best way to go.

I think some people during this thread have underestimated the intelligence of the women who either elect to use, or at least acknowledge the benefits of medical intervention - which I find quite disturbing to be honest.

Lou

(I don't know why I read these types of threads, they always drive me nuts lol)

[shed]

lou, I don't disagree with anything you have said (except maybe the homebirthing thing being crazy, but that's okay, it might be crazy for you and that's fine - for me, its not a crazy option, its just a location to have a similar birth that I had last time in hospital).

People who loved their c-sections and want intervention aren't actually the problem. If you had a c-section and you loved it then that's great! There is nothing mislead or freaky or uneducated about it and no one is saying there is.

Everybody agrees that it matters that the baby is born safely. That is not the question.

The question is if that is the ONLY thing that matters.

The benefits of medical intervention when it is needed is not being underestimated. That's not even the problem either.

Its when it is being used without good reason and putting mothers and babies at risk. Nature is being underestimated, and in some cases, completely disregarded for NO benefit in a lot of births in our system.

I think we really need to understand what people are saying and not presume that everyone who thinks natural birth is better means better in every case for everyone even when complications do occur.

Because that is obviously (well, maybe not so obvious to some) the case. It kind of gets a bit annoying to have to keep saying this but people just keep wanting to talk about their own individual need for intervention, as though that is the problem, when the problem is the rates overall. And even the medical fraternity itself says intervention rates are too high.

Mums matter too. There are two people involved when a woman gives birth.

[Verdi]

Just with the statistics thrown around in here just thought that you should note this when statistics are quoted:

We have seen that if you want to deceive people, statistics makes it easy.

It is wise to be suspicious, because statistics (and numbers in general) can be manufactured to make any idea sound convincing. When used properly, statistics is a powerful tool for uncovering truth; when used improperly, it can be manipulated to prove almost anything.

The best statistic you probably can trust more is real life experiences.

Your experiences, your friends and your families.
In my experiences i had no problems with being induced or haveing an epidural and i had no problems with my natural labour with my fourth.

My mother had 1 bad experience with her first which died in a natural vaginal delivery, then she had 5 more babies all done with a cesarean and all positive stories.

My friend had a shocking first birth - suction, forceps and a episiotomy - then had a fantastic induced labor for the second - then had totally natural drug free 40 minute birth for her third(no clamp of the cord and breast crawl)

i rather rely on personal experiences rather than stats who may be done by a group who are biased.
i am sure if there were stats on Homebirthing by a team that think homebirthing is dangerous then they will make sure that they will proove their theory, just like the anti C campaigners will set out to make a point to support their view.

[spiritedbirth]

Mums matter too. There are two people involved when a woman gives birth.


:iagree:

[KatiesMum]

:laughing: I have disagreed with a lot written in this thread ......

But I have to say I agree with almost every single post written this morning.

EmmyLou (I know that was last night but oh well) - you are 100% correct. No-one has disputed that intervention rates are too high. That is not in question.

Naiwen - great points as always. Midwife led care is a much better option for low risk pregnancies. Obs are only really needed when or if things go pear shaped.

- I am not one that would ever have a homebirth - but I am appalled that this option is not freely available to anyone who wants it. I simply do not understand why it isnt.

MissKitty - yes I agree that our whole maternity and paed system needs substantial amounts of work. And yes the public/private system possible needs to be reassessed as well as the role of Private Health Insurance

Shed - (yes I know - its a shock that Im going to agree with you too :p) I agree with your post too. All of it. Intervention when it is requested, or required is not the problem. Intervention when it is unnecessary and unwanted is a huge issue.

and Candyn - yes I agree wholeheartedly. Stats are used to prove the point of the writer .... so the writer picks the stats which most prove what they are trying to say. They are easily manipulated. This is the reason I like to look at the raw data (hence my link to the info provided by the ABS) rather than read someone elses interpretation ..... but then you get my interpretation of those :laughing:

and lastly - spirtied birth - you picked the quote of the thread. That is what its all about.


Wow - I dont think Ive ever agreed with so many people in one day on this subject :D

[GirlsOnly]

I totally agree with previous posters that intervention is sometimes needed but I do not consider ourselves lucky.... the system is subjected mums and babies to unnecessary intervention which is causing more complications which would not arise if left alone.


I disagree :)

I think we should feel extremely lucky that we have the option for such intervention should we need it. Imagine if we had no choice and you or your baby needed life saving intervention.
Wether you want it now or not, I think we ALL should feel extremely lucky that our maternity standards are as such that the technology is available to us.

[Josh]

I have always said that it does not matter how a baby is born, the only thing that matters is the mum/bubs health, after having 10 kids myself 8 normally and 2 c/s's, I feel that I can say it with confidence, when I had my first vbac I was left alone completely, only 1 midwife came to check on me occassionally, and with my 2nd vbac no one came near me, I practically birthed my 2 sons in complete silence, but of course it is so much different with a caesar there are about 20 people in the room at any 1 time, every woman has there own individual labour and what ever happens is meant to be.

[shed]

I disagree :)

I think we should feel extremely lucky that we have the option for such intervention should we need it. Imagine if we had no choice and you or your baby needed life saving intervention.
Wether you want it now or not, I think we ALL should feel extremely lucky that our maternity standards are as such that the technology is available to us.

and around and around and around and around and around and around we go :hair:

DOES ANYONE not feel lucky that there is medical intervention available when it saves a baby's life?

Anyone? Down the back? No? Come on, hands up if you are not grateful that we have the amazing technology available to us when we need it!

No?

No one?

Spiritedbirth? your hand isn't up? no? you are grateful yes?, Emmylou? grateful, yes? misskitty? no hand up there either.

Me? yep, grateful.

Anyone NOT grateful? Speak up!!

*silence*

So we are ALL grateful that medical intervention is available when needed?

Great.

Now, where were we?...

[Nowhere]

.....

[SassyMummy]

The question is not whether or not intervention should be available, or whether it can be used in a positive life-saving manner... I'm pretty sure everyone can agree that were their baby truly at risk, then we'd put our own birthing preferences aside in order to have a healthy baby.

That is not the question, so I'm not sure why people are going, "But I WANTED intervention," or "Without it, my baby would have died."

That's why it was invented - to save lives. I don't think anybody thinks it's completely evil and should be completely outlawed.

But why do you have to trade one for the other? Why must it be a toss up between a healthy mother and a healthy baby? Why can't we strive for BOTH?

In some cases, unfortunately, one, or both, is going to come out unhealthy. It's just the way things are, because birth is unpredictable and so is life. Things will happen, and people will come out poorly.

However, why not at least AIM to keep both healthy and happy?

You know, some will say, "If I didn't have a caesarean (just an example), and my baby died, I'd never forgive myself for not agreeing to the c-sec." Fair enough.

However, agreeing to a caesarean could also increase the risk of death to your baby.

You can't really KNOW FOR SURE which is going to lead to death, or which isn't, until it's over and done with and you've got a live baby, or a dead baby (or very sick baby or whatever). You just don't know. Even then, you won't know FOR SURE if the other option would have been better... you just cannot know 100%.

This is why mothers should be given the choice, and not coerced. They should be offered UNBIASED information to help them make that choice. THEY will be the ones that suffer the consequences in the end... and as nobody can TRULY know which is the best way to deliver THAT PARTICULAR baby, then the mother should have full choice there.

Yep, bad things might happen as a result of that choice. But bad things could happen if the choice was out of her hands too.

To answer the OP - saying one should be grateful for their healthy baby regardless of their birth trauma is... insensitive, ridiculous and ignorant. It makes women feel bad for feeling the way they do. It makes them feel like not only did they have a traumatic experience, but that they are horrible people for seeing it that way.

They'll be told that some women can't even have babies - and they should be grateful they even have one. They'll be told they should be grateful their baby is healthy and happy - as thought that somehow nulls and voids their pain. Which it doesn't.

My feelings about my traumatic caesarean have nothing to do with my feelings about my daughter. You can say they're connected, I mean... how could they not be? She was born as a result of it, right? But to me, in my mind, they have nothing to do with each other.

I don't think I set myself up for trauma by being too expecting either. I didn't set myself unrealistic goals. I simply wanted a baby to be birthed via my vagina. That was pretty much it.

That was robbed from me, and you betcha I'm bitter about it.

Less than I was, and I'm slowly dealing with it, but the pain is still there.

My baby being healthy had nothing to do with my feelings about my trauma, and it's such a slap-in-the-face when people suggest I should get over it BECAUSE she is healthy.

Her being healthy, doesn't make me healthy.

Certainly, I'd prefer her healthy over unhealthy... but in my case, she could have been just as healthy, or even healthier, had I not been practically forced into a caesarean.

Say it was my fault - that nobody can FORCE me into anything.

But you can be. It's hard to be emotionally strong when EVERYONE around you, the doctors, you family and friends, your partner, is saying, "Go on... have the caesarean." When people are suggesting you'll be risking your baby's life if you say no. When you're vulnerable and thinking about the "what ifs" and whatnot. When you're overdue and already highly emotional and stressed. When you're 19 and fear that you're too much of a child to be a good mother, constantly questioning your ability to parent... why should you listen to your own instincts when you feel like a silly little girl who doesn't know a damn thing?

You just CANNOT say no... to say no, in that case, feels like you're saying, "Yes, I want to endanger my baby thanks." That is how you're made to feel.

Don't underestimate the power of being pressured into something whilst in a vulnerable situation.

To say women should accept some responsibility is... quite frankly... nasty.

We blame ourselves enough as it is... we don't need you to blame us as well, tell us to get over it, that we could have said no, that we should be grateful...etc etc.

To those who don't understand how it feels - instead of saying how we SHOULD feel, perhaps just feel lucky that you cannot relate.

[spiritedbirth]

I know shed all I am trying to say is intervention seems to be being used for a normal healthy birth & pregnancy to prevent something that might happen.....:no:

(sigh!!) sorry cannot be bothered anymore, I also posted this thread in Birth Trauma and never had reactions like this!

Everyone who had intervention to save their life or their baby's life thank goodness. For all you women though who had what you considered unnecessary intervention I am sorry and I hope the currnet maternity system wakes up to the fact "BIRTH IS NOT ALWAYS AN ILNESS"

It hurts for someone to say "at least you have a healthy baby" when you have been on that conveyer belt.

Thank you.

[GirlsOnly]

and around and around and around and around and around and around we go :hair:

DOES ANYONE not feel lucky that there is medical intervention available when it saves a baby's life?

Anyone? Down the back? No? Come on, hands up if you are not grateful that we have the amazing technology available to us when we need it!

No?

No one?

Spiritedbirth? your hand isn't up? no? you are grateful yes?, Emmylou? grateful, yes? misskitty? no hand up there either.

Me? yep, grateful.

Anyone NOT grateful? Speak up!!

*silence*

So we are ALL grateful that medical intervention is available when needed?

Great.

Now, where were we?...


I dont believe I ever used the words grateful....
I responded to a post that said she doesnt feel lucky, and lucky was the word I used.
I can understand why people dont like to post in forums like this...
I stated my opinion on something and you spent all that effort having a go at me...

I have some opinions on your thoughts, but chose to keep them to myself, as I believe everyone has the right to their beliefs.

I am all for natural, non inverntion birth if that is what you want. I had c/secs and will have another, and again, that is MY choice.
If you dont want intervention, you shouldnt be forced to have it, but how often (and I know it happens, before I get my head bitten off again!!) are women strapped to the bed and forced to have a c/section, or an epidural shoved into their spine, or a hook shoved up them to break waters whilst strapped to a bed.
If the woman in un-informed, then that is one thing...research and know your options, but I just dont think that all these things are being done aginst the will of the mother (again, I am sure it has happened before...), there must be some consent given

[NibbleCurlynBub]

Yes, I think it does matter how bub is born.

In an emergency, life matters more than anything else at that time. It may require some emotional healing as well as physical, but overall life is the priority.

But in cases where no intervention is actually needed and there is intervention, I think then that it is not a good thing.

I agree with Shed. Just because one thinks the birth process does matter, doesn't mean that they're not grateful for life-saving situations.

[GirlsOnly]

Again, I never said anything about being grateful.
The person said she doesnt feel lucky, I simply disagreed. Thats all

[NibbleCurlynBub]

Again, I never said anything about being grateful.
The person said she doesnt feel lucky, I simply disagreed. Thats all

Uhh ok.

I didn't read anything other than Shed's post. :)

[Mathermy]

I suppose the grey area begins where the freedom of choice is confounded by other variables-such as duress, intimidation, lack of resources, incorrect knowledge or information, politics, bureaucracy, lack of support, time constraints, communication issues etc.

I think only in an ideal birthing situation is it ever a matter of simple consent.

[delirium]

It hurts for someone to say "at least you have a healthy baby" when you have been on that conveyer belt.

Thank you.

:yes: I know how you feel. Particularly with my first c/s, I felt like a slab of meat going thru a conveyer belt too. With dollars signs flashing in the eyes of the medical profession while it happened.

yes, I signed consent to both my c/s. Both with no other options and no possibility of HB, in reality there was no choice. Choice is often an illusion for birth in the bush. I either signed the form and got medical care, or I free birthed. With breech babies and no experience of labour I wasn't comfortable with that option.

While I signed the form for a c/s with my first, I didn't consent to them absolutely stuffing up the op and suffering lots of trauma. Consent doesn't stop trauma.

[naomis mum]

While I signed the form for a c/s with my first, I didn't consent to them absolutely stuffing up the op and suffering lots of trauma. Consent doesn't stop trauma.


no you are right, but i guess in your case being in the bush, there was more risk of something going wrong and not being able to deliver without risk. there is always risk...

i totally agree about risks...my first born was induced after 12 days over and i ended up with a emerg/caesar. i felt ripped off but the choice wasnt really mine, he would have died, but i signed the consent as it was my choice to have a live healthy baby, not to just leave it be...then my second and third were planned caesars as it was too risky to vbac as i had a very thin uterine scar and would have ruptured causing my babies to die...so that was a choice, but out of my control but i choose that too as it resulted in live babies. i am by no means pro- caesar but that is just how i "had" to birth. but in the end it was really up to me...my OB NEVER forced me into it....i just decided it was safer after researching all the risks....

[MyFourCubs]

As I have mentioned before, it was my vaginal births that were incredibly traumatic for me- especially my 2nd. I was refused a ceaserean despite nearly haemorraging to death afetr the first vb because "there was no definate indication it would happen again." :rolleyes:I was therefor made to have a vaginal birth against my wishes and as I predicted- it went horribly wrong and I near bled to death- again. I was subsequently pinned to the bed against my will while a catheter was forcibly inserted into my urethra in order to "help the uterus contract," despite me screaming at the top of my lungs to stop. (and my having in writing that under no circumstances unless I had to have a ceaserean was I to have a catheter.) I was pinned down by 2 nurses and a doctor while I was subjected to numerous IV's being inserted into my arms. i was hysterical, begging them to let me die, I was that bloody terrified. At no stage did I give any consent- quite the opposite . It was actually a similar feeling to being raped (and I should know, I've been there before too.) So I'm not sure how the "consent' issue worked in that case but I sure as hell consented to NONE of it but it happened and left me with EXTREME PPT- I had nightmares, I couldn't have sex, I thought i would never get over it.

Anyway, my point is that I know birth trauma as I have been there and obviously there are times when things happen without your consent and in these instances it is horrific. My planned ceaserean by comparison was fabulous- although it ended up being a emergancy I was fully informed, asked for my consent and kept calm and reassured throughout the whole process. It obviously does not matter whether you have a vb or a ceaserean, in both instances things can go very wrong and not to plan. I think we all agree in this thread that women need to be educated going into birth and armed with knowlege because knowlege is power. It is only with knowlege that you can make informed desicions and informed consent. So maybe instead of just pushing for "no intervention," perhaps the focus should simply be on educating and creating awareness of all aspects of birth- all the things can go "wrong," and what choices women have. Many women CHOOSE to have an epidural or a ceaserean and they are FINE with it- so what's the problem if they are making a fully informed choice? It is when there is no knowlege that women are taken advantage of. I wish I'd known my rights during that vaginal birth- sure they were trying to save my life but in the end none of what they did worked and i ended up in theatre anyway with a massive infection, haemmoraged again, and nearly died.:rolleyes: I bloody wish I'd been able to speak up for myslef more than what I did.

I hope this thread dies a natural death as it's gone round and around and around.

Night girls:)

[delirium]

As I have mentioned before, it was my vaginal births that were incredibly traumatic for me- especially my 2nd. I was refused a ceaserean despite nearly haemorraging to death afetr the first vb because "there was no definate indication it would happen again." :rolleyes:I was therefor made to have a vaginal birth against my wishes and as I predicted- it went horribly wrong and I near bled to death- again. I was subsequently pinned to the bed against my will while a catheter was forcibly inserted into my urethra in order to "help the uterus contract," despite me screaming at the top of my lungs to stop. (and my having in writing that under no circumstances unless I had to have a ceaserean was I to have a catheter.) I was pinned down by 2 nurses and a doctor while I was subjected to numerous IV's being inserted into my arms. i was hysterical, begging them to let me die, I was that bloody terrified. At no stage did I give any consent- quite the opposite . It was actually a similar feeling to being raped (and I should know, I've been there before too.) So I'm not sure how the "consent' issue worked in that case but I sure as hell consented to NONE of it but it happened and left me with EXTREME PPT- I had nightmares, I couldn't have sex, I thought i would never get over it.


:hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs: Whether trauma happens from a natural or c/s - it still hurts the same.

[MyFourCubs]

Oh, thank you for the hugs... I agree with you, have some :hugs: :hugs:right back!

[Verdi]

I agree :hugs::hugs:

[naomis mum]

i agree too.:);)

[shed]

I suppose the grey area begins where the freedom of choice is confounded by other variables-such as duress, intimidation, lack of resources, incorrect knowledge or information, politics, bureaucracy, lack of support, time constraints, communication issues etc.

I think only in an ideal birthing situation is it ever a matter of simple consent.

that is my understanding as well.

Would I agree to a caesarean if I was told my baby would die if I didnt? damn straight I would.

The caesarean is not the problem. I believe that most of the caesareans that are performed are necessary.

Its WHY the caesarean BECOMES necessary that needs to be explored. Its not a matter of telling people how they should and shouldn't birth once the intervention has started. Its trying to help them get the birth they want themselves, which *newsflash* in most cases, ISN'T an emergency caesarean caused by other intervention.


So maybe instead of just pushing for "no intervention," perhaps the focus should simply be on educating and creating awareness of all aspects of birth- all the things can go "wrong," and what choices women have. Many women CHOOSE to have an epidural or a ceaserean and they are FINE with it- so what's the problem if they are making a fully informed choice?

Nobody is pushing for no intervention. *sigh*

Women who are FINE with it isn't what we are talking about. I'm not sure why it would be :detective:

[MyFourCubs]

Well wouldn't have expected a hug from you Shed............but still....:(

*sigh* You know I think we are all sighing at this point so let's drop it, hey? At the end of the day, we all have different ideas based on our own experiences whether they are negative or positive.... we have agreed on all we can agree on and we should agree to disagree on the rest.

Cheers.

[Freya]

Gosh this argument gets boring.:sleeping:

Intervention starts from the moment you walk into the hospital whether you like it or not, it is being put into a wheelchair as though you are crippled, being a 'patient' as though you are sick, the arm band, being induced, the constant monitoring, the bright lights, the uncomfortable bed, vinyl floors, the nurses obs and doctors who walk in and out, being told how to move, watching clocks, being told what positions to use, having pain relief, having your waters broken, having internals, having cords cut early, being told when to get out of the bath, having someone put a time on your birth oh this list goes on and on it's not just about oh sh*t you have to have a c-section as bub is in distress.

All of these things can mess with the way birth is meant to be and then issues start to arise.

If a women is informed about each and every one of these things and chooses to go ahead with it that is her choice. But women will continue to preach (lack of better word) about these things because the truth is that many women do not research birth till the end of the pregnancy, they go in naive, have birth done to them and end up seriously traumatised.

Birth is something that only us women can do, our bodies are designed to carry children, our vagina's are designed to birth babies. If a woman feels that she was let down by her care provider she has every right to. And for someone to say oh well at least the baby is healthy entirely dismisses her emotions.

I had what most consider a good birth but there are many things that bring me to tears about what was done to me that I guess many women wouldn't even think twice about but I know that had I gone into my birth more informed these things wouldn't have happened and I wouldn't be feeling this way. Yes my baby was healthy and for that I am very blessed but that is not all that matters.:no:

I find it sad that women don't go into birth informed, these are our bodies, our babies!!

ETA: I am talking about NORMAL pregnancies.:ecomcity::ecomcity::rolleyes:

[Verdi]

Hey Freya - none of that wheelchair thingy happened to me - with my last one which was a natural labor (not induced) none of those things happened???
LOl i was walking into the cafeteria with my doula and did pretty much what i wanted and it was a private hospital.:confused:
Good to see you back:hugs:

[biscotti]

Intervention starts from the moment you walk into the hospital whether you like it or not,

I actually don't agree with that. I don't think it applies to every hospital birth.

[Freya]

Hey Freya - none of that wheelchair thingy happened to me - with my last one which was a natural labor (not induced) none of those things happened???
LOl i was walking into the cafeteria with my doula and did pretty much what i wanted and it was a private hospital.:confused:
Good to see you back:hugs:

Yeah, all hospitals have different policies ect.. I am just talking in general.

Thanks.:D

[Josh]

Every woman is in charge of there own body,some women cope very well with the whole birthing process, whether it be a completely natural birth or a caesar with massive intervention, I have experienced almost every kind of birthing option, and all of them have some kind of intervention eventually.

[miraclemum]

I agree with your post. I also wouldn't have my son here today if it wernt for medical intervention but it was an emergency which is not what the OP is talking about. My OB did a strip and stretch the afternoon I went into labour when I was a week overdue. She didn't ask for permission, she told me she was going to do it. Now maybe I would have had a better experience had this not happened (I was in labour for 12hours but not "established". This may also have something to do with my waters being broken manually), and I don't think it was necessary to do so. My Strep B on the other hand, well my son would have probably died at home if it wasn't for needing to be on antibiotics (they strapped me up to the monitors and noticed he was severly distressed).

[miraclemum]

Oh...and as for the "as long as you have a healthy baby..." BS...yes, that is the ultimate goal, but would you go and tell somebody that has had a severe car accident, "you are alive and that's all that matters, get over it!" ?? It takes time to heal. Time to get over things emotionally. And I know its going to take a VERY long time for me to get over things that happened....if I ever do.

[kymmy]

This is what I have been thinking about especially today.
Is having a healthy baby all that matters? Why?
Cos women are only vessels and the sacrifice is worth it? Fine as long as its necessary. But sometimes it just isnt. I don't need to feel trauma to love my children.
I know that now. I find it much easier to love when I am not feeling like ****.I make a uch better mother.
Yes intervention and technology is available but it doesn't need to be utilised ad nauseum.

A little while ago I read of a woman who had a unneccesary complete hysterectomy after an unnecesssary cs. It just made me really think. She was young and had no chance of having any more of her own children and wanting many.. She didn't want to hear Oh at least you have a healthy baby. She would have traded her son for a healthy uterus, body and more children.

[MyFourCubs]

This is what I have been thinking about especially today.
Is having a healthy baby all that matters? Why?
Cos women are only vessels and the sacrifice is worth it? Fine as long as its necessary. But sometimes it just isnt. I don't need to feel trauma to love my children.
I know that now. I find it much easier to love when I am not feeling like ****.I make a uch better mother.
.

I dont' really want to revive this thread but I had to reply to your post. I agree wholeheartedly and absolutely with the above statement. My 3rd baby was so much easier to love without the trauma and utterly horrendous birth experience that was my first two births. I wasn't sick. I wasn't utterly exhausted and weak from multiple litres of blood lost. I wasn't glued to a bed for week connected to tubes and canulars and catheters, unable to move without fainitng or haemmoraging. My 3rd birth left me healthy, strong and feeling fabulous and I had so much more energy and willingness to bond with her and love her. In my case however, my first 2 births were vaginal and my 3rd- the good birth- was a ceaserean. It works both ways.:)

[kymmy]

I have a couple friends who had caesers and said they didn't have troubles at all.

"So far we have not been clever enough, in developed or developing countries, to take the advantages of medicalised birth care while avoiding the disadvantages such as the drift to obstetric excesses." Fish can't see water (http://www.acegraphics.com.au/articles/wagner03.html) (Marsden Wagner)
That sums it up for me.