A Question for the Non-Vaxers...

[MummyoftheMuffins]

I don't want to seem harsh, or nasty, that's not why im asking this question. I'm actually just curious, so if i offend any of you in some way im truly sorry i just would like to know...

Why is it that you choose not to vaccinate your children when most of the vaccines are free, or that you can claim back from medicare? I strongly believe in vaccinating all children as its very beneficial for them, not so much now but when they are older!

Do you have problems with enrolling in schools/daycares, i know my daycare won't allow you to enrol unless your childs vaccinations are up-to-date...

Did something happen to make you come to this decision or is it because of your religion?

Help me out here, im just trying to understand, im not being nasty so if you have that impression then you are very wrong...

[Mum&bubs]

I do choose to vax but my friend chooses not to. Why? Because she has 2 children & she says she cant deal with one sick child (as in when her dd gets vax she gets sick)

[MummyoftheMuffins]

Sorry i just thought i'd write another quick post on here,

SORRY MRS MIGGENS!!!! I didn't realize that you had already done a thread on here pretty much about the same thing...

I also, did my research on immunizing/not immunizing after i read the non-vaxxers thread. And i totally respect the oppinons and choices of others. This thread was basically just my query as to why some of you made that choice. I'm not having a dig at any of you because as i just said, I totally respect your decisions!

[MummyoftheMuffins]

In my oppinion, i would prefer a little bit of pain for my DD for maybe a day or two, than for her to die of a preventable disease... But then i haven't had any real problems with DD after needles... Maybe a bit of a temp but thats all... I might have a different oppinion if she were to get VERY sick...

[faery]

hi maddismummy

i'll happily answer your questions!

i never really had much thought about vax except that it seemed like a bit of overkill to give so many (as compared to when i was a kid). then i started studying natural therapies and learning about our bodies ability to heal itself and all of the related ideas about health, healing, nutrition, herbs, spiritual health etc etc. this didn't really challenge what i already thought but it gave me a broader understanding and knowledge to base my opinions on.

then i began working for a chiropractor and had first hand experience with seeing people helped through chiropractic. he had HEAPS of resources about vaccination. he had all the gov't information, the studies that were for and against, the independant research and access to web sites where people could discuss their experiences and post other information (usually from medical databases etc that are not accessable to everyone). he encouraged me to read read read and inform myself about the issue.

and what i read convinced me that the risk of vaccination did not equal the risk of getting the disease. and that injecting chemicals (because the reality is that vaccines are full of chemical ingredients like aluminum and formaldehyde, not to mention mercury {has been taken out of some vax, but not all}) into my child was not something i was prepared to do.

DP is a herbalist, has a med science degree and is studying medicine. he has a great way of taking something extremely complex (how vax "work") and simplifying it. which has made me even surer in my decision to to vaccinate. both of us are confidant in our ability to manage dis-ease and don't see sickness as something to be feared.

neither the cost (of lack of cost), or religion has anything to do with our decision. I don't plan on putting my son into daycare, so it won't be an issue for us. however, we will be getting a concientious objection form, which is needed for schools and daycares and for certain centrelink payments if you choose not to vax. no medical procedure in this country in compulsory so they can't keep you out of schools etc because you do not vaccinate.

we feel that ALL dis-eases are preventable. Not through vax but through good nutrition gained through organic food and not eating junk. drinking clean filtered water. taking supplements when needed. resting when sick. not anti-bacterializing our entire house. basically living as natural a life as possible.

hope that answers your questions. I don't judge people who do vaccinate their kids. they have obviously thought about/researched the issue and decided that vax is the way to keep their kids from getting dis-ease. they have a right to make that decision and i'm not going to argue with them about it. it would be nice however, to not be called a "baby killer" or a "scourge on public health" just for stating my opinion! so thanks for NOT being nasty!:D

[shed]

I have been doing a lot of reading lately on this subject and have decided to selectively vaccinate. Very selectively.

I never thought I would be a non-vaxxer, it sort of seemed a bit of a tree-hugging hippy thing to do, but after reading quite a bit about the vaccinations I have decided that most of the vaccinations are not necessary for the situations my child will be in.

Funnily enough, similar to faery, my chiropractor discussed this issue with me and he recommended a book so I could decide for myself. It is one of many I have read and it is called "Well Adjusted Babies".

I was uncomfortable with the thought of my brand new baby being welcomed into the world and then being jabbed, so I had already decided against the Vit K (which according to some is not a vaccination, but nevertheless). The Hep B vaccination that is given at birth is not necessary for our situation either. Some bubhub members also provided helpful information which helped me come to this decision. I then had to convince DP who is a very conventional type of person, but he now agrees with my decision after doing his own research.

The readings show some results that I am not comfortable with so I have decided not to take up the offer of the free vaccinations that are offered at birth and we will evaulate each one as the time comes. We will still be eligible for all the allowances after producing a conscientious objection form, so its not really a money issue for us.

I am not totally anti-vaccination. Just selective.

[CarolineF]

Faery

are you saying that people whose kids get these preventable diseases must practise bad hygiene, or follow an inappropriate diet etc? I am not sure I follow your logic on how to prevent your child contracting a communicable disease that can be spread by air or touch. Do all these methods you suggest you follow suddenly make children invinceable to disease?:detective:

Its not something I have read in my research.

Do you accept that the reduction in many of these diseases is partly as a result of the benefit incurred to us all by the majority choosing to vax and therefore assisting in the reduction of the spread of such diseases?

I am just curious. I respect people's decisions not to vax so long as spurious claims are not made and people who do decide to vax or not, whichever position you take, are not made to feel as if it will be their fault should their child contract one of these diseases due to bad diet etc.

Not wanting to offend, really, but I just don't follow how it would do the job!!!

[CarolineF]

Just curious again, if you were to go on holiday to a country where there was malaria - would you not take quinine etc based drugs to prevent getting malaria if bitten by an infected mosquito? Nothing can prevent such an occurrence.

The point I am making, not very well cos I am waffling cos I am tired, is that unless you live in a closeted environment with no contact with the outside world, there is actually nothing you can do to prevent contracting certain diseases and personal hygiene and diet and so forth are not going to be an invinceable barrier. Even if your child does not go to daycare, you and your DP will still need to go shopping, see relatives etc - how can all those methods you describe deal with all the variables?

I am really not having a go, :D , I'm just playing devils advocate. :fingerscrossed: your methods work for you and your child. My view is that in a country with such widespread immigration, ADF constantly being sent overseas etc to possibly infected countries that it is impossible to say these diseases are gone forever and there is no real chance of any of us suffering from an outbreak, or coming into contact with others who have been in contact with them even if they are not showing symptoms.

[faery]

hi Caroline
i'm not offended! ;) and i am NOT saying that kids who get infectious diseases must have poor hygene or poor nutrition. nor am i saying it is anyones fault if a kid gets sick. some kids get sick, some don't. some people try and prevent their kids getting sick through vax and some people try and prevent their kids getting sick through natural therapies.

what I am saying (and this again is what I beleive based on my experience and study) is that the immune system is a really really complex system. no one can claim that they know exactly how it works. I beleive that good hygene, good nutrition and other things (like herbs and supplements) can make that immune system even stronger, and more able to deal with infections as they occur. I know that i cannot stop myself or my child from coming into contact with diseases or infections, and it won't make us invincible. but i don't live in fear of those diseases and know that we are confident in dealing with and sickness that any of us might have.

I'll wade into some controversy here and point out that the majority of the infectious diseases vaxed against actually had the numbers of infected people decrease before the vax was introduced. and that info comes from the governments own statistics. So i don't beleive that my kid is protected because everyone else is. vaxed kids still get the diseases. who can explain that?

as far as other countries are concerned. I have travelled to tons of other places where malaria was rampant. I never took anti-malarials (don't even get me started on the toxic nature of those drugs!!) but i did what i could to prevent infection. avoiding areas where there was a serious outbreak (something even locals would do), wearing long sleeves at dawn and dusk, putting on citronella mossie repellant, sleeping under a mossie net. did i get bites? sure, i got lots, but i didn't get malaria. and I was never vaxed before travelling to any country either and am not riddled with disease!

I guess it comes down to how you view health. Some people see health as the absence of disease. and therefore will do whatever possible to make sure: 1. they don't get that disease by vaxing 2. taking drugs like antibiotics and cough syrups and panadols to make themselves better.

my paradigm of health is completely different, as i would suspect is the case for other people who choose not to vax.

[MummyoftheMuffins]

I understand everyone has their own oppinion, and mine is to vaccinate my child... I didn't read much research on the topic, nor did i follow with everyone elses decision that vaccinating is the right thing to do... I am not a sheep as such...

BUT i do believe that there are pros and cons for both sides of vaccinating and not vaccinating your children... There have been lots of children who have been vaccinated for a certain disease and then end up getting it anyway. But then i think that by vaccinating your child, its not going to prevent the diseases from coming, its going to let your body know what it is so that if you do get it, your body knows how to get rid of it! I do however, disagree with the chicken pox vaccination! I don't find it necessary! My daughter had chicken pox when she was about 8months old, but her cousins cousin (if that makes sense!) had the chicken pox immunisation and got it a week later! So in that case, he still got it, and it was in some ways caused by the needle.

But i have a question again, mainly for faery... But anyone's comments are very welcome. If you choose not to vaccinate your child, and when they go to school and share drinks and food with other children, like they do, What happens if your child gets something like maningacoccal c... and then loses a limb from that, when you can have the vaccination to actually prevent it! I just don't see the point in taking that risk... Like i said earlier, i would preferre my child to be in a little pain for a few days from a needle than to have her die or get incredibly sick from a disease that IS preventable. And i know that some vaccinations don't prevent the disease, they just let your body know what it is so they can fight it, but then some vaccinations do actually prevent them...

I don't want to be narky, i did start this thread because i was curious to know why you make these decisions, and i completely understand those of you who have done the research and understand the pros and cons of doing that, what i hate however, is people that don't do the research and read about it, and make a decision like that when they know nothing about it! It drives me crazy! Some people choose not to vaccinate their child simply because other people in their family do it... they don't weigh up the risks of not vaccinating...

I have read all of your posts though on here and believe that those of you who have done the research, know and trust your decision, and thats good enough for me! Thanks for replying girls!:yelclap:

[shed]

Hi madismummy

The meningoccocal is one of the vaccinations my child WILL be receiving. I agree that its not worth the risk for that particular nasty.

:yes:

[mysonroger]

this is off the subject a little, but i thought there could be a response i find interesting. i have been TTC for two months and then found out, through blood tests, that i had no immunity to chicken pox and mumps. i got the vaxes (chicken pox and MMR), but now have to wait three months until i fall pregnant. the chicken pox is two shot 4 weeks apart because adults don't respond as well as children who get one shot. so i 'm due another shot in 4 weeks and then have to wait 8 weeks before i'm clear of the live virus. i know of its effects on the unborn child in the early stages and the risk to the fully formed baby at the very end of the pregnanacy if i contracted chicken pox. i wasn't prepared to take that risk, especially with DS in childcare.

i'm very sad to have to wait that long for TTC, but hey, that's life, or at least my life and i'm spewing now i never went for a routine check up before or at least other drs never asked that question before about my immunity.
what are people's thoughts about me TTC after the chicken pox vacc.

[MummyoftheMuffins]

I think thats all good! Once your all clear of the life virus, go for it! lol:yelclap:

Good luck!:thumbsup:

[faery]

hi kristy


"If you choose not to vaccinate your child, and when they go to school and share drinks and food with other children, like they do, What happens if your child gets something like maningacoccal c... and then loses a limb from that, when you can have the vaccination to actually prevent it! I just don't see the point in taking that risk... Like i said earlier, i would preferre my child to be in a little pain for a few days from a needle than to have her die or get incredibly sick from a disease that IS preventable. And i know that some vaccinations don't prevent the disease, they just let your body know what it is so they can fight it, but then some vaccinations do actually prevent them..."


meningicoccal is like every other disease. I'll take my chances. a few reasons.... the vax only "prevents" one strain of meningicoccal. there are multiple types which can cause disease. I think the body does a fantastic job on its own fighting off diseases and infections and i don't want to interfere with that process. i feel that there is more at risk with vax than just the pain from a needle.

It's a really hard topic to debate/discuss. mainly because of the huge gulf between the medical view of health and the holistic view of health. people who vax generally follow the medical view, that disease must be stopped. the holistic view is radically different and so the issue comes to a standstill or a nasty argument because it is such a fundamental difference. best to just agree to disagree and be confident in the choice you have made for your children.

[mysonroger]

I think thats all good! Once your all clear of the life virus, go for it! lol:yelclap:

Good luck!:thumbsup:

yeah but i was wondering if anyone heard how long for the live virus to clear.

[bnatural]

hi ladies,
I understand your concerns. I have been studying Naturopathy and have found out we are being lied to left right and centre...the naturopathic field is so popular as it appears more and more people are cottoning on to the lies and deception of our modern world of mass marketing and dumbing down of the population for world control. All I ask is that you become more aware of what is happening aournd us and have more faith in your own bodies. The human immune system can ward of any disease thrown at it..of course if it's a healthy one! ... we are not told this but are only inundated with drugs drugs and more drugs (immunizations included) to weaken our immune systems so we then become more dependant on ....more drugs we think help us.. they're all connected to the pharmeceutical companies (formulas included ) which are only weakening our systems (and babies) more and more. ..that along with the pesticides in foods.. flouride in water (that's another topic I would love to cover) ..the list goes on. Anyway before I ramble too much more and confuse you I know plenty of mothers with now 20 year olds who were never immunized and have never had problems, barely ever sick.. only perhaps chicken pox (which we all get) you can only die from such diseases if your immune system is weak.. or something wrong with it.
People these days are following like blind sheep.. please I really recommend you do your research .. I know it's so hard these days ..and i'm with you on this confusion.. it's all based on fear, we all need to rally together and be strong and trust our instincts and be as natural as we can..

I recommend this website as they sum it up quite nicely www.vaccination.inoz.com/unvaccinated.html

If you have any more questions please don't hesitate to ask.. don't be afraid of being judged.. fear is the biggest killer and loss of ones true self and self worth enabling us to be led blindly.

[RedPanda]

hi ladies,
Anyway before I ramble too much more and confuse you I know plenty of mothers with now 20 year olds who were never immunized and have never had problems, barely ever sick.. only perhaps chicken pox (which we all get) you can only die from such diseases if your immune system is weak.. or something wrong with it.
People these days are following like blind sheep

This is a pretty dangerous view. I respect people's individual choices to vac or not to vac, and I think it's pretty offensive to label vaccers "blind sheep". Also, there are plenty of cases of deaths from diseases that are now preventable, such as meningicoccal. When I was a baby, a vaccine was not available. I got the disease at 18 months old, and fortunately was able to beat it. The other two babies in the same ward as me did not beat it - one died and the other was severely brain-damaged. I think it's great that you have conducted your own research, however I would like to remind you that just because you know of unvaccinated children who have made it through life without a major disease doesn't mean that others will have the same good fortune.
By the way, other preventable diseases (such as measles, mumps etc) may not cause death, but they can cause sterility and deafness.
This is not a criticism of non-vaccing parents, but merely a defence of the "blind sheep" who choose to vaccinate their children.

[bnatural]

no, I agree I don't mean to offend anyone, and I didn't mean it to be aimed purely to vac parents.. I understand completely why they vaccinate, I would have if I had not researched or studied.. I guess i'm sick of being labeled by people and saying my child would pose as a threat if she's not immunized ..the list goes on.. it's still sometimes hard to grasp especially when you bring up arguments such as yours about overcoming illnesses etc.. it's a really tough subject.. I don't have the answers to it all.. and my heart goes out to those who have become affected by disease.. all I wonder though is.. why do some get affected and some don't? If it is to do with our immune systems being weakened then perhaps those affected my have something in their genetic structure or their system is weakened in some way? ...these are just thoughts.. I comment about blind sheep sometimes it just feels like the masses all do the same thing (i'm not even ruling myself out here to be honest) ..i'm including myself ....we sometimes all live in fear of the unknown and just follow along to be safe.. that's all I meant.. so how about we challenge that.. no offence, and i'm sorry I got a little carried away..I guess just trying to make a point and challenge people... I don't think it's a good idea to be split into categories of who vaccinates and who doesn't..it only causes more divide...so I appreciate both aspects I guess..I'm just putting my ideas and how i'm feeling forward.

[RedPanda]

Fair enough :thumbsup:

[CarolineF]

no, I agree I don't mean to offend anyone, and I didn't mean it to be aimed purely to vac parents.. I understand completely why they vaccinate, I would have if I had not researched or studied..

Bnatural: I'm still unsure about your stance on this. You called vaxer"blind Sheep" in your mail, and now you apologise but go on to say you would have vaxed if you had not researched or studied. Take it from me, even the vaxers research and study and it is a difficullt decision for all. I wish people would stop making "blind" generalisations. We all love our children and want to do what we see as being the best thing for them, don't we?

[cosmic]

My baby is 4 weeks old and we are currently making our decisions about vaccination. I'm still researching but right now I believe we will selectively vax and delay vax. I also tend to be of the view that what is in the needle is potentially doing much more harm than good, particularly to a small baby with an underdeveloped immune system. It's absolutely not about money, nor is it about the pain of the needle - it's what's in the needle that concerns me!

I think this article really nicely sums up the concerns of parents who choose not to vax (or who question the usefulness or necessity of vaxing):

http://www.avn.org.au/Vaccination%20Information/10%20Reasons.htm

[reAllytee]

Bnatural: I'm still unsure about your stance on this. You called vaxer"blind Sheep" in your mail, and now you apologise but go on to say you would have vaxed if you had not researched or studied. Take it from me, even the vaxers research and study and it is a difficullt decision for all. I wish people would stop making "blind" generalisations. We all love our children and want to do what we see as being the best thing for them, don't we?


Thankyou Caroline !
That pretty much sums up my feelings on Bnaturals post !
I have certainly researched my decisions & i can certainly say im not a "sheep".
Funny thing is where was the great body's natural defence when it came to small pox or the likes of polio ?
Sorry but i think we can all go on about vaccination also say pretty much all of us have been vaccinated & had no problems so that must mean its right !
I think this is a decision that every parent has to make themselves on what they deem to be the right thing & not having people call them sheep or the likes for making a different decision to yours or someone elses.
I dont like scare tactics from either side it only makes me angry & frustrated.

[melbournemum]

my boys are 12 months and almost 3. We have gone down a non-vax route which has been a real leap of faith for me because I come from a much more traditional background. My husband and his family are very much into alternate health and therapies and his sister is a practioner. I was convinced by the research my husband was able to show me regarding vaccinations and the way our immune systems work and the way that vaccines do not introduce disease to our bodies in a way that is natural and thereby do tend to mess with our immune systems potentially leaving us weaker in the long wrong. There was also a lot of mentions about possible links with mass vaccinations and the enormous rise in alergys etc but I am no expert and the main reason I was convinced was the sheer health and vitality of his family. His father at 82 has the body of a 60 year old (his gp's words), my husband is just a picture of health and just seems more robust than me somehow. We do have a healthy lifestyle but we are not fanatics. Our boys have never been on antibiotics and I really do thank homeopathics and natural remedies for that. My position now is that natural remedies and trust in our own bodies ability to heal as our first port of call but of course, like anyone, I would seek medical advice and intervention if I felt it necessary. I have a good gp and really feel my boys have the best of both worlds, a natural approach with the backup of medical assistance if necessary. I would love to see the two sides work together more as I truly believe there is room for everyone and it could be of huge benefit to all to have a truly holistic approach. I'd love to walk into a doctors surgery and have the homeopath and naturopath in the same building, reguarly refering to each other! (thats a diversion though, just wanted to answer the original question about why some people don't vaccinate)

[bnatural]

that vaccines do not introduce disease to our bodies in a way that is natural and thereby do tend to mess with our immune systems potentially leaving us weaker in the long run...thanks melbourne mummy for this statement..

yes we were all vaccinated.. I was too.. my point is how do you know if we are better off if we weren't?? There is really nothing else to compare to.. since we were all vaccinated.. there seems to be a really really high percentage of us getting cancer now isn't there? and not to mention a number of other illnesses..... what do you see happening to this next generation.. ? why are the number of cases of ADD and autism so high? I'm only asking..? shouldn't we be asking questions? I'm only wanting to challlenge what seems to be 'the norm'
Give up on the 'blind sheep' comment, there is no need to take it personally I mearly meant (as stated in another thread post, sorry can't remember the name) that we are not correctly informed I believe (hence blind) and we just follow what the doctors tell us (sheep) i'm talking generally speaking.. this does not relate to people who research but some people don't have the time to research or have utmost faith in doctors ( understandably, I mean we SHOULD have faith in them) but sometimes they are not always given the correct info either...

Why is it that people who challenge the 'norm' are the most ridiculed and questioned?
Anyway.. I have some statistics if anyone is interested..[inaccurate text deleted] so where are people supposed to get their info? seems a bit strange to me.. is there something to be hidden ..something we shouldn't be allowed to know? Yes I believe so.. there's a lot of money to be made in vaccinations did you know?

[p4purple]

Why is it that people who challenge the 'norm' are the most ridiculed and questioned?


I guess bnatural that you may feel that way because the health of your own child is a very emotional issue. We all want to believe that we know what is best for our own individual child and people tend to challenge (ridicule and question) the beliefs of others when they feel that their own beliefs are being questioned.

I have made the decision to not bring vaccinations up with friends or family...it goes along with politics and religion conversations at dinner parties.

As a mum to be I have looked at the for and against vaccination arguments and at this stage I take the stance...no jabs at birth and keep educating myself.

Here's some links from some research that I have done:
The following websites are supportive of non-vaxers:

http://thinktwice.com/

http://www.vaccination.inoz.com/

http://www.avn.org.au/

You can not research comprehensively without looking at the FOR vaccination argument. I must point out that this is a gov't website:

www.immunise.health.gov.au/faq.htm

When it comes down to it, we must inform our selves and have faith and believe that only we as parents can make the right choices for our families and in doing so we must have respect for the choices of other parents.

[Supermummy]

I would say that the 20 year olds or any one else who has never been vaccinated and have been healthy - their good health is probably due to the people who have been immunised! We who have been immunised and do so for our children are helping to reduce these terrible illnesses in the community so they are not as common as they once were!
It is a joint effort!

I say thank god for immunisation, as I would not want to see one of my children end up on an Iron Lung for the rest of their lives after contracting polio.

I think not having lived through thoes times when diseases like polio were around, we don't really appreciate how lucky we are to have vaccinations.

Just ask your grandparents or parents - as I am sure they could tell you how lucky we are!

[AppleBlossym]

I would say that the 20 year olds or any one else who has never been vaccinated and have been healthy - their good health is probably due to the people who have been immunised!

That is such a load of rubbish! Have you even heard what people who don't vaxx are saying??

It is more likely to be one of many contributors such as a cleaner healthier way of living.

I suggest "supermummy" that you research a little before posting something like that. As a non vaxxer I am pretty offended by your post:mad:

[shed]

AppleBlossym, don't worry about it. I am a selective/non vaxxer to be and I am happy that everyone else is getting their kids vaxxed. For a couple of reasons:

1. If the vax works, then good, less germs for my unvaxxed kid to catch ay?

2. If the vax works and their kids are vaxxed, then there should be no problem with my kid playing with their kid, since their kid is "protected".

All this without having to subject my baby to the vaccination. Perfect. Let them take the risk if they want to, its their choice.

Other people vaccinating their children will do my baby no harm at all, so what do I care?

Me not vaccinating my child will do no one else baby any harm at all, since they are "protected" by the vax. So why should they care?

[the_queen]

Well put, Shed.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: