do you think badly of parents who do circ bubs/

[bronny-jane]

i dont ever come into this area..until today;)
and as i was reading the pro circ threads i started to get angry with some of the reasons they circumcised [text removed by moderator] their sons.

why am i so angry?
its not my baby, so why do i care?

honestly i dont know why, i guess its because i couldnt do that to my baby, and i wonder how anyone else could...

those babies are tough little things.. i cry when i kick my toe.. couldnt imagine the pain of having a part of such a sensitive organ removed.. and so young...

so maybe i just answered my own question... i put myself in the position and think about how i'd feel..

anyone else get this way?

and for those parents who have circ'd their babies.. im not saying your a monster... but i wonder how much thought went into it... not religious reasons, i get that,, but because i wanted him to look like daddy.. makes my squirm.. or its more attractive.. ive seen many a penis in my life, and i wouldnt say any were ättractive:laughing:..; isnt that why people use the term... bumping uglies

[PrincessDani]

I dont judge... but I do also find myself wondering why or how for that matter they could allow their boys to go through that. I wouldnt think any less of a person tho! When I was pregnant we talked if we had a boy and DP said he didnt agree with it and I wasnt sure. I thought about it and thought you know what that seems horrible I cant put a baby through that so no. Sadly we lost our baby but still I know that if we have a boy he will never be 'done'!

[bronny-jane]

:( wow sorry to read that:(:hugs:

[Freya]

I don't judge them.

I just feel sadness for the baby...

[Benji]

:no: I don't think badly of parents who have circ'd their babies.

I'd have to think pretty low of my own grandparents etc if I did.

[gizmoduckus]

My DS isn't circ'd. It never came up in conversation because my DH isn't either.

But I don't have any problem with other people doing it. I guess it's because I have never heard from a grown man that is circ'd come out and say they feel violated because it was done to them. If circumcised men don't have a problem with what was done to their bodies, why should I have a problem with it.

I know some people are probably going to jump up and down on what I just wrote but this is how I feel about it.

[Fuchsia!]

I'll be honest, i do. I hate that people do it to their child. Its just one of those things im really passionate about and i just find some of the reasons so frustrating and so wrong.

I have tried to be non judgemental, but i just can't let it slide.

Even for some medical reasons i think aren't valid. Its just my opinion on it. Maybe in time i will be less judgemental but at the moment i do think badly of parents who choose to circ their child. The day they make it illegal is the day i will be extremely satisfied and happy.

[Nowhere]

No i dont judge them or think bad of them, I would prefer if no child ever have an operation, let alone an elective one but i dont judge parents that do



I'll be honest, i do. I hate that people do it to their child. Its just one of those things im really passionate about and i just find some of the reasons so frustrating and so wrong.

I have tried to be non judgemental, but i just can't let it slide.

Even for some medical reasons i think aren't valid. Its just my opinion on it. Maybe in time i will be less judgemental but at the moment i do think badly of parents who choose to circ their child. The day they make it illegal is the day i will be extremely satisfied and happy.


thats great that you can be honest, But i have to ask how do you determine in which cases medical reason are valid and which ones are not

[Zana]

I had my son circumsized, originally not by choice. His father was Israeli/Jewish and we were living over there so there was alot of pressure from the family. I ended up getting it done whilst back in Australia by a doctor who specialized in it. There was no knife used, just a little cap put on the end which fell off with that bit of foreskin in a number of days. He didn't even cry or notice it. I don't think he was traumatized. Still if I have another boy (not with first son's Dad anymore) I'm not sure if I would have it done.

[SassyMummy]

No, not really.

I don't understand them, or their reasons for it (medical and religious aside - if I believed so strongly in a religion that I followed it...well...religiously:p... then of course I'd probably get it done too. I don't see how I could commit to a faith and just ignore some of their "ways." There's nothing to say you have to follow an organised religion if you believe in a higher power though... but that's off topic and I'm blabbering:p).

I do sometimes think people get it done for stupid reasons. The bf's family do it... just because it's the done thing in their family. Because their fathers were done, their sons were done, and their sons... and so it continues. They've not looked into any reasons for or against... they simply just continue to do it blindly.

I don't think they're bad people, just ignorant and behind the times... they're that way with a lot of parenting ideas though (the other day they were discussing how they think it's dumb to breastfeed because your boobs will sag down to your knees and whatnot... I so wanted to say, "Errr...actually...it's pregnancy that does that!" but was too much of a wuss to butt my nose in...:p).

I don't think they're bad people, but I do think they're making a bad decision.

[Laksa]

yes.

i will be honest and admit that i do think badly of people who have their sons circ'd. i just see no need for it...

[pinkgingham]

i dunno, if they use the excuse that its cleaner or that it looks better then yeah i might feel like i think bad of them. but i dunno, whatever excuse they use i would still think they done the wrong thing.

but it also makes me sad that some people do this to their children. i cant judge, its their child but i feel sorry for the poor little babies that are having it done :(

[munchie]

couldnt care less but i do wonder whats the point of it

[LG]

I don't label *them* as bad, but it doesn't mean that I agree with circumcising. I think it's more that I couldn't do it to my son, and I would certainly feel sad for any baby boy who went through that.

I asked my DH if he wishes his parents hadn't had him circ'ed, and he said of course, he would much rather that they had left him alone. I wonder how many men out there think that? :detective:

[Jakois]

I dont think badly of the parents, just of their actions, if that makes any sense.

[mumofKieran]

I agree, I don't think badly of the parents, just of their decision. Some of my good friends whom I love dearly have had it done. I don't agree with their decision but I still like and respect them as people.

[Fuchsia!]

No i dont judge them or think bad of them, I would prefer if no child ever have an operation, let alone an elective one but i dont judge parents that do





thats great that you can be honest, But i have to ask how do you determine in which cases medical reason are valid and which ones are not

Gee im not sure, but extreme? I just look at it this way, i have had numerous bouts of thrush, and urine infections over the last 26yrs and i wouldn't consider removing parts of my vagina or altering it in anyway.

I guess when people say "my son has had some infections" i still don't think its still needed.

Dunno its hard to explain what i mean. Another eg. is i have also had tonsilitis heaps of times, and some antibiotics fixes it within a few days and im fine, i would never imagine removing them unless it was hurting me physically or psychologically then i don't see the need to remove them.

I think that unless its damaging them physically or mentally it should be left alone.

There is always going to be cases where it has to be removed and im thankful that the procedure is there to help them, but not un-necessarily

[NibbleCurlynBub]

No.. Why should I?

Parenting decisions are hard to make, I would just hope that they were informed when making whatever decision that was made.

Not like my angry thoughts would make a difference anyway. :no:

I'd probably be more confused as to how a discussion ended up happening about our children's genitals..

[Zana]

[QUOTE=SassyMummy;3182437


I don't think they're bad people, just ignorant and behind the times... they're that way with a lot of parenting ideas though.
I don't think they're bad people, but I do think they're making a bad decision.[/QUOTE]

Why do you think it is a bad decision? What exactly are the reasons against? and are the reasons for, which you mentioned really so stupid? Growing up is hard, especially for boys. I think that being circumsized because everyone else in the family or the town is is a good enough reason.

I'm sure there probably are men out there who wish their parents hadn't had them circumsized but I imagine there are just as many who wish they had been and a very vast majority who are happy with what they ended up with.

[mum_I'm_hungry]

I know they do it. I know I never would. I hope they have their reasons, because I have mine. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, though.

[Fuchsia!]

I'm sure there probably are men out there who wish their parents hadn't had them circumsized but I imagine there are just as many who wish they had been and a very vast majority who are happy with what they ended up with.

Yes thats probably true, but at least the non circ still have a choice whether they can be done or not.

[SassyMummy]

The first part that you quoted me on, was related to specific people in my life that I know. I feel I am allowed to comment on them any which way I choose.

The second line that you quoted was directed at everyone.

You're entitled to your opinion, but please understand this is the anti-circumcision part of the forum. It is, for the most part, here for those of us against circumcision of for people to pose questions to those of who are against circumcision.

I don't think the fact that I believe circumcision is a "bad decision" is offensive, so I'm sorry if you took it that way. Like I said, I don't think people who circumcise are bad people.

Why am I against circumcision? I do not believe in taking away the rights of a male unless it is medically necessary. I am not against circumcision on the whole, I am simply against healthy babies with no problems being circumcised. This is RIC (routine infant circumcision).

I see no reason for it, and I feel that it is unnecessary to inflinct pain on a babies penis, and permanently alter it, when there is no real reason to.

In this day and age, it is uncommon for boys to be circumcised. Adult males are, yes, but I am referring to new babies. The majority of boys in our childrens classes at school will not be circumcised. So, if your choice is based around social norms, then perhaps it might be worth finding out just how many are circed as compared to not circed. You might be suprised as to how the stats differ from my parents general (for example).

For me, social norms are not a good enough reason to painfully remove a part of my son's penis. Nor is cleanliness, as we have access to clean water and healthcare in Australia. Were I to live in a 3rd World country, my stance may be different.

Looking like his father makes no sense to me either... there's a chance my daughter's inner labia might one day hang outside of her outer labia... but I would not have it removed simply because mine is tucked away inside my outer labia. Instead of teaching her that being different is a problem, I feel that it's healthier for me to teach her that it's okay to be different, and that a lot of people look different on the outside, but it doesn't make a difference to the person they are on the inside.

I would rather teach her to accept her body as it is, than try to "fix" it.

There is simply no reason why I would circumcise my sons as I see no benefit. I can see a benefit to keeping it there though - giving my son the choice to remove it himself when he's older. He may grow up and wish I had circumcised him... but hopefully he'll be able to also see that it was nice for him to have the choice in the end.

[PrincessDani]

:( wow sorry to read that:(:hugs:
Thank you:hugs:

[MilkOnTap]

i dont ever come into this area..until today;)
and as i was reading the pro circ threads i started to get angry with some of the reasons they circumcised [text removed by moderator] their sons.

why am i so angry?
its not my baby, so why do i care?

honestly i dont know why, i guess its because i couldnt do that to my baby, and i wonder how anyone else could...

those babies are tough little things.. i cry when i kick my toe.. couldnt imagine the pain of having a part of such a sensitive organ removed.. and so young...

so maybe i just answered my own question... i put myself in the position and think about how i'd feel..

anyone else get this way?

and for those parents who have circ'd their babies.. im not saying your a monster... but i wonder how much thought went into it... not religious reasons, i get that,, but because i wanted him to look like daddy.. makes my squirm.. or its more attractive.. ive seen many a penis in my life, and i wouldnt say any were ättractive:laughing:..; isnt that why people use the term... bumping uglies

I get angry.

I can't help it. I just feel so sorry for the baby that I can't help but feel infuriated with anyone who puts their child through such pain unnecessary.



Disclaimer: of course if there are medical reasons then thats different... blah blah blah

[Pax]

Sorry Bronny, but i find this thread just plain rude..

Honestly I think those that live in glass houses should not throw stones..

You all have skeletons in your closets..that anyone of us could jump on here and think negatively of you about.

What a sick and twisted society we are becoming if we can resort to judging others on circumcision..

It doesnt have to be painful at all. there is a method of placing a band on the penis which makes it fall off over time, its a little bit of discomfort but not necessarily painful.

I think those that judge parents for circumcising their children are the ignorant ones..

but i guess everyone would expect me to post this considering my thoughts in the other thread.

boo to this thread...:raspberry:

[Jakois]

Sorry Bronny, but i find this thread just plain rude..

Honestly I think those that live in glass houses should not throw stones..

You all have skeletons in your closets..that anyone of us could jump on here and think negatively of you about.

What a sick and twisted society we are becoming if we can resort to judging others on circumcision..

It doesnt have to be painful at all. there is a method of placing a band on the penis which makes it fall off over time, its a little bit of discomfort but not necessarily painful.

I think those that judge parents for circumcising their children are the ignorant ones..

but i guess everyone would expect me to post this considering my thoughts in the other thread.

boo to this thread...:raspberry:
this thread has been placed in the Anti-Circumcision it is here For those who wish to put in writing their objections to this procedure and explain why they feel this way
If you dont like it, dont read it...

[Mamalicious]

boo to this thread...:raspberry:

:laughing:

[Pax]

this thread has been placed in the Anti-Circumcision it is here For those who wish to put in writing their objections to this procedure and explain why they feel this way
If you dont like it, dont read it...


Hey whatever rocks your boat.. LOL :laughing:

[Chub Chub]

Do I judge them.....yep. The whole ideal to look like Dad is just plain uneducated and neanderthal in my opinion!:dizzy: It just goes against my grain. I really feel strongly about it and think in this day and age it should only be endorsed in AUstralia for serious medical reasons.

[Zana]

What a sick and twisted society we are becoming if we can resort to judging others on circumcision..

It doesnt have to be painful at all. there is a method of placing a band on the penis which makes it fall off over time, its a little bit of discomfort but not necessarily painful.

I think those that judge parents for circumcising their children are the ignorant ones..

.:raspberry:



I totally agree!
I am neither for or against on this issue and Sassymummy I was not in any way offended by your comment regarding circumcision as a bad decision. I just honestly wanted to hear your educated opinions about the topic as obviously you had researched it before reaching your conclusion. I understand this is an anti circumcision thread but what use is any discussion without any argument for the other side. Thats when a discussion becomes ignorant, when we are all just agreeing with each other. I've now seen 3 boys get circumcized by the little band method and one of them slept through it. As I said I am neither for or against. If my next child is a boy I will probably decide against it because I don't think its necessary and I'm no longer married into a Jewish family. However I do think some of you have formed your opinions regarding cruelty without properly looking into it.

[reAllytee]

Nope I do not.

Why because ive been in the situation twice now where I needed to make the decision whether to do it or not.

Yeah we probably jumped the gun & went in blindly with Boof ... I realise that now but its done & I cant make it grow back.

People can judge me for it thats their right I suppose but honestly this is something for ME to deal with, with MY SON when the times comes. If he is angry with me then I understand & I will do all in my power for us to get through that. I hope he realises why we chose to do so, again blindly but we did have good intentions.

With G ... Admittedly I was going to just get him done because we got Boof done & I was worried. I ended up putting it off & off though because I really didnt want to in the end.

Problem was it got taken out of my hands when over time with all his bowel issues & no one listening to me he did get infection after infection but not just that but ulcers all over.

His foreskin trapped everything & created ulcers underneath ... It was terrible & he used to sob like you wouldnt believe. The way his penis looked was sorry to say but revolting & used to make me gag. Even now I am devastated for him because the way the foreskin trapped everything & the ulcers couldnt heal etc he now has scars over the head area etc. Makes me feel like the cr@ppiest mum ever.

It can be THE hardest decision to make either way & honestly it does really annoy me when some say they cant even understand why many of us still do it for medical reasons.

Honestly you have no idea what its like then.

Really.

You dont need to feel sorry for my boys. Yes they have been circ'ed but they have loving parents who didnt do it for the hell of it & will work at anything to make them feel safe & secure in the fact that no matter what their bodies look like even if they are missing a limb or the likes they are absolutely & completely normal.

As well as truly loved.

[Fuchsia!]

Nope I do not.

Why because ive been in the situation twice now where I needed to make the decision whether to do it or not.

Yeah we probably jumped the gun & went in blindly with Boof ... I realise that now but its done & I cant make it grow back.

People can judge me for it thats their right I suppose but honestly this is something for ME to deal with, with MY SON when the times comes. If he is angry with me then I understand & I will do all in my power for us to get through that. I hope he realises why we chose to do so, again blindly but we did have good intentions.

With G ... Admittedly I was going to just get him done because we got Boof done & I was worried. I ended up putting it off & off though because I really didnt want to in the end.

Problem was it got taken out of my hands when over time with all his bowel issues & no one listening to me he did get infection after infection but not just that but ulcers all over.

His foreskin trapped everything & created ulcers underneath ... It was terrible & he used to sob like you wouldnt believe. The way his penis looked was sorry to say but revolting & used to make me gag. Even now I am devastated for him because the way the foreskin trapped everything & the ulcers couldnt heal etc he now has scars over the head area etc. Makes me feel like the cr@ppiest mum ever.

It can be THE hardest decision to make either way & honestly it does really annoy me when some say they cant even understand why many of us still do it for medical reasons.

Honestly you have no idea what its like then.

Really.

You dont need to feel sorry for my boys. Yes they have been circ'ed but they have loving parents who didnt do it for the hell of it & will work at anything to make them feel safe & secure in the fact that no matter what their bodies look like even if they are missing a limb or the likes they are absolutely & completely normal.

As well as truly loved.

Oh goodness, your poor little man! As much as im anti circ, that is the reason im glad that Circs are available.

As much as i want it to be illegal i would still want it for true medical reasons.

I know i said earlier that it irks me that people use medical reasons to circ their kids but this isn't what i meant. You circumstance was what i was trying to say earlier.

What i meant earlier is that people who's little man has 1 mild infection and they go and get them circ is what irks me.

Im sorry if i offended you:hugs:

[my_lot]

I think its fine for parents to make the choice for their child just as they make every other choice for their child in the first years of their life.

If the father wants it done for the son to look like him, well so be it. Thats their choice as a family.

Id like to see it back to routine and available in hospital to be done before leaving for home.

[333]

Yes in all honesty i do. I accept for religious reasons and obviously serious medical issues but i believe routine circumsicion is wrong. Those that choose to inflict pain on their children so that they can "look like daddy" or to avoid regular penal hygeine IMO dont deserve to be withheld from judgement. I dont believe it should be socially normalised and it takes people like us (openly anti circ) to teach the society of tommorow that its not 'OK' or 'normal' but a seriously impactive desicion that should not be made lightly (or at all IMO).

If it is for a medical reason then it should be prescribed and acted upon as a medical procedure, if and when it is nessecary. Not on a routine basis on the off chance.

Let your boys decide, when they have the chance. Its their body after all not yours to alter as you see fit. Once its gone it never comes back.

Ant-circ people: Dont back down. Its up to us to change the opinion of the greater majority. Staying quiet is just further normalising the procedure and taking away from the gravity of the matter.

[kymmy]

No not badly of the parents.
But we saw friends at hosp and they were talking about circ. Their boys are older and for religous reasons. I just had this horrble feeling come over me. I just felt that it was wrong and I felt sad for them.
I don't really think about it though. :/

[Roopee]

It doesnt have to be painful at all. there is a method of placing a band on the penis which makes it fall off over time, its a little bit of discomfort but not necessarily painful.


I have to ask. How do you know that it's not painful?
Alot of babies dont cry when they are circ'd- usually because their tiny bodies are thrown into shock at feeling so much pain.

I dont necessarily think bad of the parents but I do wonder 'why'. I wouldn't judge them as long as their reasons are made after they have thoroughly researched it (and really, anyone who HAS thouroughly researched probably wouldn't get ti done anyways) and not made out of ignorance.

[Mum&bubs]

To be honest, I really don't even think about it. I don't have a son- so I've never had to make this decision before but still, I've never thought that greatly about it. I'm more worried about what's going with my children and the desicions I have to make rather then other parents and their children.

[shed]

No I don't think badly of them. I think they are misguided if they do it so the child will look like daddy. I think this is ridiculous.

But no, I don't have strong views on it, just on that one reason which I think is laughable but I don't really care. Each to their own, they will be answerable to their own sons, not to me.

[talia11]

No way would I judge someone for their beliefs/decisions either way - if I have a son he will be getting it done because my husband is, my DSS is and so forth... each and every parent will make decisions about their children that people are not always going to agree with - while I see the arguement of not getting it done - I don't understand how people can get so self-rightous about things that are truly not anyone's elses business but the parents?

[Mathermy]

I don't think badly of them, but I do find myself feeling frustrated because I can't relate to the logic.

I can't understand cutting a piece of my child's genetalia because I think it looks better, or so that it looks like my husband. I would be appalled if he ever suggested such a thing.

I also can't understand how it wouldn't be painful. I mean if I put something around my clitoral hood and waited for it to fall off I imagine it would be very painful, or in the very least uncomfortable. I simply can't understand how anything like that can be painfree. It just seems like an odd argument.

I would prefer people admit that it probably does hurt, but they feel the benefit outweighs the discomfort. It just seems like a real furfy:confused:

[my_lot]

Id say it probably would hurt... Ive not heard anyone say it doesnt hurt. I have heard people say it isnt as bad as they thought it would be or that there wasnt pain afterwards or lots of crying.

I, myself would be happy with the local and the method used and I also wouldnt think it would be more pain than putting a needle into my babys muscle ((and then again in another one)) and then injecting its content.

yes, we all know the outcome is different but im not sure the pain is and it is the pain factor that is being raised here.

[Mathermy]

Id say it probably would hurt... Ive not heard anyone say it doesnt hurt. I have heard people say it isnt as bad as they thought it would be or that there wasnt pain afterwards or lots of crying.

I, myself would be happy with the local and the method used and I also wouldnt think it would be more pain than putting a needle into my babys muscle ((and then again in another one)) and then injecting its content.

yes, we all know the outcome is different but im not sure the pain is and it is the pain factor that is being raised here.

that's a whole other thread now isn't it;):D

I have to say though, for myself if i was going to volunteer for either I would definately rather have a quick jab in the arm/leg/bottom over someone removing a piece of my nether regions!:laughing:

[333]

Id say it probably would hurt... Ive not heard anyone say it doesnt hurt. I have heard people say it isnt as bad as they thought it would be or that there wasnt pain afterwards or lots of crying.

I, myself would be happy with the local and the method used and I also wouldnt think it would be more pain than putting a needle into my babys muscle ((and then again in another one)) and then injecting its content.

yes, we all know the outcome is different but im not sure the pain is and it is the pain factor that is being raised here.

:no:

Honestly i would choose a needle over having a part of me cut off (or falling off due to lack of circulation).

[misskittyfantastico]

I dont think badly of the parents, just of their actions, if that makes any sense.

I agree. It's the practice of Rountine Infant Cirumcision that I have an issue with, not the parents that choose it. I simply believe the choice to circumcise for reasons other than medical, should not be available.

[Phyllis Stein]

Hmm, I don't think they're awful people, no. I just think they're misguided/ misinformed.

Circ is one of those things that is so culturally ingrained in some people that they do it simply because it's the 'done thing'. We're primed to accept superficial justifications for RIC (cleanliness/ look like daddy/ prevent infection) because we culturally view genitals as 'dirty' and our children as our property.

When those who have already circed their sons later encounter arguments against it, they try to rationalise their decision (though they see them as reasons). It's very difficult once circ has been done to have a truly open mind to arguments against, which is why there's such a vociferous pro-circ population IMO. I can imagine it's very painful to hear some comments from anti-circers, which is why I really admire those willing to review their decision. It's not about beating themselves up about it so much as learning and growing through honesty. My point is I can't say these people are 'bad'. The ones I would tend to judge would be those who do know all the arguments and evidence against, but ignore them.


Yes in all honesty i do. I accept for religious reasons and obviously serious medical issues but i believe routine circumsicion is wrong. Those that choose to inflict pain on their children so that they can "look like daddy" or to avoid regular penal hygeine IMO dont deserve to be withheld from judgement. I dont believe it should be socially normalised and it takes people like us (openly anti circ) to teach the society of tommorow that its not 'OK' or 'normal' but a seriously impactive desicion that should not be made lightly (or at all IMO).

If it is for a medical reason then it should be prescribed and acted upon as a medical procedure, if and when it is nessecary. Not on a routine basis on the off chance.

Let your boys decide, when they have the chance. Its their body after all not yours to alter as you see fit. Once its gone it never comes back.

Ant-circ people: Dont back down. Its up to us to change the opinion of the greater majority. Staying quiet is just further normalising the procedure and taking away from the gravity of the matter.

Fabulous post. :yelclap:


I don't understand how people can get so self-rightous about things that are truly not anyone's elses business but the parents?

I wonder would you feel the same way if we were talking about female circumcision? To me, and many anti-circ people, they are pretty much the same thing.

[333]

I agree. It's the practice of Rountine Infant Cirumcision that I have an issue with, not the parents that choose it. I simply believe the choice to circumcise for reasons other than medical, should not be available.

:iagree:
Parents have to deal with enough desicions when it comes to their children. Some, that involve hurting their children (like vaccination) are extremly difficult to deal with.

I dont understand why, in light of this, our society has fabricated an entirely unnessecary choice.

[Pax]

I have to ask. How do you know that it's not painful?
Alot of babies dont cry when they are circ'd- usually because their tiny bodies are thrown into shock at feeling so much pain.

I dont necessarily think bad of the parents but I do wonder 'why'. I wouldn't judge them as long as their reasons are made after they have thoroughly researched it (and really, anyone who HAS thouroughly researched probably wouldn't get ti done anyways) and not made out of ignorance.


A friend of mine had both her boys circ'd recently at the age of 8 and 10 so both old enough to tell her if it hurt or not.

they did not say it hurt except a little right at the end when the dead bit of skin was ready to fall off and it was just like a scab would feel if you picked it off.

they had the ring method..

they dont mind that they had it done as far as she knows. it was a little bit uncomfortable for a little while, but not painful.. the padding they had to wear to stop it rubbing against their pants was a bit annoying but not painful.

[Pax]

:iagree:
Parents have to deal with enough desicions when it comes to their children. Some, that involve hurting their children (like vaccination) are extremly difficult to deal with.

I dont understand why, in light of this, our society has fabricated an entirely unnessecary choice.


circumcision was around before vaccinations, yet people think it is entirely acceptable to pump serious poison into our babies.. in 50 years time people will look back on vaccinations and probably think we were wrong for such practices.


its all a matter of perception.

[sunnyflower]

I just wonder at their audacity that they think they have the right to surgically alter a body apart from their own.

Their audacity really astounds me actually.

This statement does not include circ's perfomed for medical reasons.

[Bewitched]

I don't judge them.

I just feel sadness for the baby...

:iagree:

[misskittyfantastico]

circumcision was around before vaccinations, yet people think it is entirely acceptable to pump serious poison into our babies.. in 50 years time people will look back on vaccinations and probably think we were sick and ******** for such practices.


its all a matter of perception.

Many, many people don't see vaccination as acceptable. Not to go OT or anything.

[NewBeginnings]

I don't judge them :no: It is their child to do with what they think is right.

I do feel bad for the babies.... having to go the (in some cases) unnecessary pain. But it is not my choice to make.

My DS isn't done because I chose not to.... what other parents do is up to them and their beliefs and choices.

[my_lot]

If you had a friends child stay over and you happened to see their penis was circd would you instantly think "oh dear, the poor little didums that would have hurt him soooo much" ?

Or is it just a baby that you feel for?

[Grace3]

Q. Do I think badly of parents who do circ their child/ren?

A. No, of course not.

[melbryan]

My good friend chose to circum and I did not. It's her business I dan't have her family so really can't judge and her parenting.

I have read so much about it and feel for our family we have made the best decision not circum. Armed with the knowledge I feel like i can make an informed decision.

I was all for it until I reserached into DH is circum.

[Freya]

If you had a friends child stay over and you happened to see their penis was circd would you instantly think "oh dear, the poor little didums that would have hurt him soooo much" ?

Or is it just a baby that you feel for?

I have had a friends 6 year old son running around my house naked and I noticed he was circed, I did feel for the boy.

[Refresh]

No, I don't think badly of them:no:

[mybabyandew]

i dont know why everyone is saying it is painful i got my baby down when he was 3 months they do numb it so they cant feel it,and when the numbing wore off i just gave him panadol,and he was total fine.i did alot of looking up about it and there are so many good things why you should get them done,and there are so many things that may happen if there not thats what i have read over the internet.

[naiwen]

If it was for medical reasons - no of course I would not think badly of them

If it was for religious reasons - no although I might struggle to understand

If it was for asthetic reasons ie look like daddy etc - yes I would, I would not write them of completely but they would lose some of my respect.

[Sheer Bliss]

To me, it's not that they have had it done, it's the lack of thought that goes into the decision for some of them. I have 2 friends that have circ'd their boys, one did LOADS of research, online and info from their GP. They based the decision on family history and what they thought was the best for their little boy - I feel no anger towards them at all. Another friend, didn't really want to get her boy done, but the dad did, so he would look like him. She had no idea of the method being used etc etc, she just wnet along with it so as not to upset her husband. I am FURIOUS with her. To take is so lightly is what i have the problem with - generally we are all trying to do the right thing by our children, but to do it with NO basis other than appearance :banghead: makes me soooo cranky - would she have her daughter's breasts enlarged to make them more like hers without looking into the future implications of the surgery? NO WAY, so why treat their little boy (who was still 2weeks premmie/before his due date when the surgery was performed) with such little respect. He was also given panadol later that evening, despite being 3weeks old, and not due for another 2 weeks!!!

[Milliner]

Yes. I have major issues with RIC :shame:

[AM]

Well, because to me it is a human rights issue, and people who consent to RIC on behalf of their babies I believe are stripping their children of basic human rights, then I do feel a bit shall we say 'negative' towards them, I feel sad that in a lot of cases babies have no advocate.

Actually I find it heartbreaking.

[Pax]

If it was for medical reasons - no of course I would not think badly of them

If it was for religious reasons - no although I might struggle to understand

If it was for asthetic reasons ie look like daddy etc - yes I would, I would not write them of completely but they would lose some of my respect.


I dont think you would be a very good friend if you wrote off a friendship or treated your friends differently because they chose circumcision for their sons.

that is just plain arrogance IMO

[peanutbutter&jelly]

I dont think you would be a very good friend if you wrote off a friendship or treated your friends differently because they chose circumcision for their sons.

that is just plain arrogance IMO

I would look at someone differently.
I personally could never do it to a baby.. a tiny innocent child, just because I could. I agree with AM - I believe its a matter of human rights as well... you are taking away a child's right to protection, a basic human right (according the UN rights of a child).
I think badly of them if its an unresearched decision, same as I do with several other things (but thats for other threads :))

[reAllytee]

See ok I have an issues with this thread :o

Most are ssaying they would think badly or negatively etc.

Well how do you know unless you really do have a full conversation about it why it was done ?

I find it really distressing that people would assume I was 'stupid' or didnt research or the likes if they saw us in a shopping centre change room changing the boys nappies.

We dont walk around with big signs saying " HEY I HAD MY SON CIRC'ED BECAUSE OF MEDICAL REASONS " nor do we always talk to our friends about it all so how would you know ?

How can you judge without knowing anything ....

Sorry it just bugs me.

[Mamalicious]

Well how do you know unless you really do have a full conversation about it why it was done ?

I find it really distressing that people would assume I was 'stupid' or didnt research or the likes if they saw us in a shopping centre change room changing the boys nappies.

How can you judge without knowing anything ....

:yes::crying:

[NibbleCurlynBub]

:yes::crying:
Spotted your post in another thread.. I now know something I didn't earlier.
:hugs:
I stand by what I posted earlier.. Its been ignored anyway so its not too important.

and um.. I thought you were Islamic? :confused: Am I wrong? :o

[aje001]

Yes I do, I think it is a terrible practice which should be made illegal. I think that it should not be done to anyone without a valid medical reason.

What are we going to start doing next... removing appendixes from newborn babies just because they don't REALLY need them?

[moonwildflower]

Personally, I would never circumcise a child of mine. Although, I wouldn't judge anyone else based on whether or not they circumcise their children. Although I am anti-circumcision, that is just my choice, and it honestly does not bother me whether other parents circumcise their children or not. It is their choice as a parent, just like any other choice they make as a parent, and everyone has their own reasons for making the choices they make, whether anyone else thinks they are legitimate reasons or not.

For example, I don't think (like the OP said) "I wanted them to look like their daddy" is a legitimate reason, although I wouldn't judge them for their decision to circumcise their child. I would possibly judge their reasoning behind it, but not the decision itself.

If that makes any sense :D :laughing:

[SassyMummy]

I think it's unfair to think lesser of people because they circ.

While I think it's a violation of a basic human right to make these choices over ones OWN body, not everyone does, and the law, and society, says that okay. Because it's not immoral or illegal or even "frowned upon" by our country as a whole, I think it's natural that the even the best of parents could choose this for their children.

When it's the done thing, a lot of people would just assume it's "better" and "safe" or whatever.

Not everyone knows there is a need to research. I went into my birthing experience unprepared as I didn't know there was any reason to research. I figured my doctor would tell me what's best and that would be it. I figured anecdotal evidence from friends and family would be more than enough.

While it was a birth, and not circumcision, my point remains the same.

Some people won't/don't research because they don't even know there IS anything to research.

It might be ignorant, yes, but it's not INTENTIONAL ignorance in this instance... it's just innocent ignorance, and I don't think I can go around blaming people and thinking poorly of them for making such decisions when they didn't know there was information they perhaps should have looked at beforehand.

I also figure that even well-meaning people get "stuck" and pressured into all sorts of things they don't want to do. Where Mum and Dad disagree on the issue, one is going to have to lose. Whoever "backs down" could do so as a result of pressure and misinformation, scare-tactics and guilt from family, friends and various other biased sources.

People buckle under pressure, and as we can never be certain that our choices are 100% correct, and the majority of us will always KNOW that in the back of our minds, despite all our research and knowledge and whatnot, we MIGHT STILL be wrong... well, I think it's understandable that some people might buckle when push comes to shove.

Not everyone is strong and brave and can say "NO!" when everyone else is shouting "YES!" It can be a very hard thing to do, and I will not think poorly of someone simply because they made the decision to circumcise their son, because they didn't know better, or lacked the strength to say, "No, actually, I don't think so."

I think to just look at circers and shake your head or whatever doesn't do anything to help the anti-RIC cause... it just seperates anti-circers and pro-circers even more, and gets those who do circ on the defence, unwilling to listen to anything you have to say.

It does nothing, except perhaps destroy an otherwise fine friendship.

[Mamalicious]

Spotted your post in another thread.. I now know something I didn't earlier.
:hugs:
I stand by what I posted earlier.. Its been ignored anyway so its not too important.

and um.. I thought you were Islamic? :confused: Am I wrong? :o

I believe in God...but some other parts don't come so easy! :laughing:

Thanks for the hugs...:hugs:

[MimiGrace]

I think it's unfair to think lesser of people because they circ.

While I think it's a violation of a basic human right to make these choices over ones OWN body, not everyone does, and the law, and society, says that okay. Because it's not immoral or illegal or even "frowned upon" by our country as a whole, I think it's natural that the even the best of parents could choose this for their children.

When it's the done thing, a lot of people would just assume it's "better" and "safe" or whatever.

Not everyone knows there is a need to research. I went into my birthing experience unprepared as I didn't know there was any reason to research. I figured my doctor would tell me what's best and that would be it. I figured anecdotal evidence from friends and family would be more than enough.

While it was a birth, and not circumcision, my point remains the same.

Some people won't/don't research because they don't even know there IS anything to research.

It might be ignorant, yes, but it's not INTENTIONAL ignorance in this instance... it's just innocent ignorance, and I don't think I can go around blaming people and thinking poorly of them for making such decisions when they didn't know there was information they perhaps should have looked at beforehand.

I also figure that even well-meaning people get "stuck" and pressured into all sorts of things they don't want to do. Where Mum and Dad disagree on the issue, one is going to have to lose. Whoever "backs down" could do so as a result of pressure and misinformation, scare-tactics and guilt from family, friends and various other biased sources.

People buckle under pressure, and as we can never be certain that our choices are 100% correct, and the majority of us will always KNOW that in the back of our minds, despite all our research and knowledge and whatnot, we MIGHT STILL be wrong... well, I think it's understandable that some people might buckle when push comes to shove.

Not everyone is strong and brave and can say "NO!" when everyone else is shouting "YES!" It can be a very hard thing to do, and I will not think poorly of someone simply because they made the decision to circumcise their son, because they didn't know better, or lacked the strength to say, "No, actually, I don't think so."

I think to just look at circers and shake your head or whatever doesn't do anything to help the anti-RIC cause... it just seperates anti-circers and pro-circers even more, and gets those who do circ on the defence, unwilling to listen to anything you have to say.

It does nothing, except perhaps destroy an otherwise fine friendship.

:iagree:Perfectly put! :thumbsup:

[Lil Mamma]

My boys were circ'd for religious reasons. If someone thinks they have the right to judge my parenting abilities based on that, well they can go jump!

[Ashleigh<3]

I, 'key word', I do not condone circumcision- For my own personal reasons.

I could, 'never' hold that against Parents who do circ their kids, because that is my individual stance on circumcision and I know it's only one amongst the many.

I don't pick and choose my friends based on their son's lack of/or, amount of foreskin.
That would make me pretty darn bigoted.

We are all subjected to a different method of learnings and when we venture into the circumcision sections, we're always going to hear it from one side and hear it from the other.
I think we owe it to ourselves to not be so intolerable of others, to keep this forum in good, supportive spirit, let's not hold it against each other.

There are ways to express yourself as ardent as you please without any intention to offend.

[bunintheoven12]

I judge because I believe no one has the right to make this decision except the child. My children's father is Jewish and my opinion is that religion is not an acceptable reason to perform a circumcision on a child. There are websites and books written by Jewish people who don't circumcise their sons. I have so much respect towards them for actually going against the norm and doing what feels right for them.

[Lil Mamma]

my opinion is that religion is not an acceptable reason to perform a circumcision on a child.

Well alot of religious people care more about what God thinks of them over any persons opinion.

[moonblossom]

I just feel sad that they didn't take the time, or could be bothered researching the facts!!!

Like father, like son doesn't apply anymore :hair:

[Pax]

I would look at someone differently.
I personally could never do it to a baby.. a tiny innocent child, just because I could. I agree with AM - I believe its a matter of human rights as well... you are taking away a child's right to protection, a basic human right (according the UN rights of a child).
I think badly of them if its an unresearched decision, same as I do with several other things (but thats for other threads :))



Well I feel sorry for those of you that feel this way, there is so much more to a person than a single choice they make or decision they make. When I make a good friend, I support them in whatever they feel is right for them. But i am getting over my idealism that others should be the same way.

Ladies whether your circ or dont circ your sons I dont care! And honestly I dont think 99.9 % of your sons will either.

[bronny-jane]

i dont know why everyone is saying it is painful i got my baby down when he was 3 months they do numb it so they cant feel it,and when the numbing wore off i just gave him panadol,

oh wow that makes it better right.. perhaps you could go and get your clitoris removed.. i mean, they'll numb it, and you can always use panadol..

and if anyone is going to say ''its not the same thing".. please how isnt it.. its just skin too right..
might be for religious or cultural purposes.. it'll make you cleaner.. plus helps ward of sin:rolleyes:

[bronny-jane]

in response to my last post,.... actually there us a difference, you have the choice, and you wouldnt do it, because...theres no need...
you need your clitoris
it would hurt, and you are capable of verbalizing that pain

you have a choice.. why not the sons?

[secondtimearound2]

For those that said they do judge; So would you break up a friendship because you just realized your friend's son was circumcised even though you have been friends for quite some time and how often do you check out your friends son's Genitals? or do you mean you judge on here but it would be different irl?

I'm sorry, just a bit confused and need some clarification.

Great post Stacey you have covered a lot of what I went through. It was hard, very hard. It's done now so I have to stick by what decision was made. You are a very understanding person :). Not many do understand.

[bronny-jane]

ok i wouldnt end a friendship....
i would ask why they did it..
however all my friends sons arent circ'd;)

[SassyMummy]

Oh, I would probably judge... but there's a difference, IMO, between making a judgement and then treating the person differently, or making a judgement and leaving it at that.

Of course I'd prefer all my friends and family were on the same wavelength... it makes things easier, and obviously, a lot of the choices I make I make because I feel they're the "BEST" decision you can make.

I would be heartbroken if my best friend came to me and said, "I'm pregnant and I'm having an elective caesarean." I wouldn't want that for her, and I'd try to subtly inform her of perhaps alternate ways to deal with whatever fears she may have. I'm actually hoping I have another baby before she has her first... just so I can invite her along to the birth and maybe convince her that a VB is a great idea (she doesn't seem to have an opinion either way just yet, but I wanna get in there early:p).

Thing is, even if she went on to have an elective caesarean for reasons I think are completely ridiculous... to her, they're not ridiculous, and in her opinion, at that point in time, she would have felt that she made the best decision for her.

I'd stick in there, to support her as best I could, and hope and pray that nothing went wrong... and of COURSE I would think she made the wrong choice, but as it's not my choice to make... well, there's not much more I could do.

I'll agree that circumcision SHOULDN'T be a choice given to the parents... it should be left up to the boy himself when he is old enough to make that decision. But as it currently stands, parents ARE allowed to make the choice here in Australia... and so long as it's legal... I kinda think I can't treat people like child abusers simply because they see the whole think differently to me.

I will judge them... of course I will. I judge everyone for everything, good and bad. I can't help but pass judgement.

But I can help how I treat the person despite that judgement.

[secondtimearound2]

So does that mean we are still cyber friends :laughing:

I will be honest and say I do feel guilty of course I do :o. I have never pushed it on anyone and never would cause I know how it feels. The pressure from both sides of the family was huge and I was made to feel if I didn't I was a bad mother. Now that it's been done the family are happy but now I'm a bad mother on here :gloomy:.

[naiwen]

I dont think you would be a very good friend if you wrote off a friendship or treated your friends differently because they chose circumcision for their sons.

that is just plain arrogance IMO

:laughing:I said in my post I would not write them off so you are just jumping to conclusions there.

And I didnt say I would treat them differently either :confused:

But if they said oh we had little jonny circed because it looked better then yes I would have less respect for them.

Just as I would have less respect for someone who smoked next to their newborn.

You think I am judging them and I think you are judging me :rolleyes:.

[Ana Gram]

I would never know unless they brought it up. I don't feel it necessary to discuss the genitals of someone's child over coffee.

[Phyllis Stein]

I wouldn't write someone off on the basis of circ. But it would tell me we had a hugely different set of ethics, which possibly would cause conflict.

[Pax]

:laughing:I said in my post I would not write them off so you are just jumping to conclusions there.

And I didnt say I would treat them differently either :confused:

But if they said oh we had little jonny circed because it looked better then yes I would have less respect for them.

Just as I would have less respect for someone who smoked next to their newborn.

You think I am judging them and I think you are judging me :rolleyes:.

Oops sorry, i misread your last post.. just went back and saw where you said you wouldnt.

however If a friend of mine showed me less respect I would probably feel the distance and avoid her anyway..

smoking next to a new born can kill them... circumision is not deadly... there is a big difference :rolleyes:

[AM]

I wouldn't write someone off on the basis of circ. But it would tell me we had a hugely different set of ethics, which possibly would cause conflict.

:iagree:


Ah yes, thankyou, couldn't be bothered trying to frame the right words...

[naiwen]

Oops sorry, i misread your last post.. just went back and saw where you said you wouldnt.

however If a friend of mine showed me less respect I would probably feel the distance and avoid her anyway..

smoking next to a new born can kill them... circumision is not deadly... there is a big difference :rolleyes:

Actually if a newborn gets an infection as a result of the circ that could be deadly, if the newborn has a undetected heart problem the stress of circ could cause heart failure.

I could go on about all the potentially fatal complications of circing but I will leave it at that.

[WorkingClassMum]

I don't think anything of the parents of a circ'd baby.

I don't think about other people circ'ng their babies

I actually don't give it any thought

Maybe I should...? But I probably wouldn't

[BJsMummy]

I don't think anything of the parents of a circ'd baby.

I don't think about other people circ'ng their babies

I actually don't give it any thought


:iagree:

I dont ask people so I'd never know if their baby was done or not

[naiwen]

I have known mums to spontaneously tell me!

So weird LOL.

[PrincessDani]

As i said I dont judge or think they are horrible but I wanted to add there is one comment above all others that annoys regarding cicumcision. That is; Oh its ok if it hurts they wont remember it anyway, thats the best thing about doing when they are a newborn:(. My friend said that when I said it must really hurt them how do you cope. Thats what she said and followed it up by oh and the best thing was I didnt go in, I didnt want so watch so I made DH go in with him:(. That was a situation that I found it very difficult not to judge. Not because she circumcised her son but because of the attitude towards it. It made it very difficult for the rest of the day to carry on as normal. I suppose I'm only human and I was angry at myself for judging but to hear someone say those things made me want to cry!

[RedPanda]

I must admit, if someone tells me they are going to circ their baby, I do have a few "Why?!" thoughts flash into my head. Particularly if it's the ol' "to look like Daddy" reason. But I never verbalise it, and it's not something I hold against them forever.

[neostudded]

I wouldn't write someone off on the basis of circ. But it would tell me we had a hugely different set of ethics, which possibly would cause conflict.
:iagree:

I think if I knew someone who circumcised, I would just rather not know about it.

[stellarella]

Yes I do judge :o
On the one hand I think I shouldn't....but then I just can't get past it.

To me it is a reflection of the kind of person they are, and unfortunately that kind of person is not someone I would want to be around, or could ever get along with. Well maybe I could get along superficially, but I'm not into that. I prefer to be genuine.

I met up with a school friend recently (also Dion's cousin coincidentally) and they had just had their son circumcised. Up until finding that out I thought it would be good to get together every so often but now I know I couldn't do it.

It's not so much that they had their son circumcised, but more their attitude towards it. I understand a lot of it is just lack of education but it's such a big decision. And to laugh about it the way they did and announce proudly at lunch that he had just "had the snip" (hand gestures and all) because it's "better than being different to daddy" made me turn a ghastly shade of green.

I'm sure people judge my decisions too and I'm cool with that because it's human nature. I think we get too carried away with the whole "don't judge" thing. Making a judgement is something that just happens.

[Milliner]

Yes I do judge :o
On the one hand I think I shouldn't....but then I just can't get past it.

To me it is a reflection of the kind of person they are, and unfortunately that kind of person is not someone I would want to be around, or could ever get along with. Well maybe I could get along superficially, but I'm not into that. I prefer to be genuine.

I met up with a school friend recently (also Dion's cousin coincidentally) and they had just had their son circumcised. Up until finding that out I thought it would be good to get together every so often but now I know I couldn't do it.

It's not so much that they had their son circumcised, but more their attitude towards it. I understand a lot of it is just lack of education but it's such a big decision. And to laugh about it the way they did and announce proudly at lunch that he had just "had the snip" (hand gestures and all) because it's "better than being different to daddy" made me turn a ghastly shade of green.

I'm sure people judge my decisions too and I'm cool with that because it's human nature. I think we get too carried away with the whole "don't judge" thing. Making a judgement is something that just happens.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Couldn’t agree more.

[rainbow road]

No I don't judge.

I babysit for both circ'd and uncirc'd children. (More circ'd which is strange given the opposite is more prevalent). They are all lovely little boys, they are all HAPPY little boys and they are all well-adjusted little boys. That is what matters to me.

Also, I do not think anyone without experience of the religious traditions and affiliations of religions of which circumcision is a practice can say whether they think it is a valid reason or not :no: simply as it is not something that can be understood in full by those on the outside.

[Purplebird]

Yes I would think badly of them - sorry and all, but I would.

[studyingECS]

No I don't and I never will:no:

[WorkingClassMum]

It's not so much that they had their son circumcised, but more their attitude towards it. I understand a lot of it is just lack of education but it's such a big decision. And to laugh about it the way they did and announce proudly at lunch that he had just "had the snip" (hand gestures and all) because it's "better than being different to daddy" made me turn a ghastly shade of green.
.


Just curious - (:onice friendly question), If they hadn't made a song and dance and awful joke about it - would you think the same?:confused:

Was it more their attitude to what they'd done - ha ha it's a big funny event, or what they'd done?

If they'd never brought it up, or if they'd said that they'd researched and still decided to go ahead - would you then have thought differently and continued your friendship?

BTW - I too would have been upset at the crass way they discussed their son's genitalia and the event.

[Lil Mamma]

No I don't judge.

I babysit for both circ'd and uncirc'd children. (More circ'd which is strange given the opposite is more prevalent). They are all lovely little boys, they are all HAPPY little boys and they are all well-adjusted little boys. That is what matters to me.

Also, I do not think anyone without experience of the religious traditions and affiliations of religions of which circumcision is a practice can say whether they think it is a valid reason or not :no: simply as it is not something that can be understood in full by those on the outside.

:iagree::iagree: Great post :yelclap: :yelclap: :yelclap:

[rainbow road]

Yes I would think badly of them - sorry and all, but I would.

Even in, say reallytee's case where her son's penis was so affected by infection that after his circumcision there is still residual scarring from the previous infection?

That's a very black and white opinion. God forbid any son of yours ever needs to be circumcised for extreme medical reasons in the future. I would hope no one would be so jaded by their anti-circ views they would dismiss circumcision altogether for what is often a painful and gutwrenching process of severe infection after infection after infection for some poor little boys.

That is what happened to my stepbrother - despite being very thorough in hygene (before any one suggests we lack basic hygienic practices haha) - he got continual fungal infection/bacterical infection/fungal infection one after an other for almost a year to the point where he begged his mum to 'cut it off, it hurts'.

Hearing that broke her heart. Her 4 year old! She did the next best thing and got him circ'd.

Would you judge her for that?

[Milliner]

I think when most people say they are anti-circ they mean anti-RIC.

I know, for me, I would never leave a child in excruciating pain, time and time again, just because I’m anti-circ, that’s just ludicrous.

So, all anti-RIC’s don’t forget to add your clause: except under extreme medical conditions.:ecomcity:

[stellarella]

Just curious - (:onice friendly question), If they hadn't made a song and dance and awful joke about it - would you think the same?:confused:

Was it more their attitude to what they'd done - ha ha it's a big funny event, or what they'd done?

If they'd never brought it up, or if they'd said that they'd researched and still decided to go ahead - would you then have thought differently and continued your friendship?

BTW - I too would have been upset at the crass way they discussed their son's genitalia and the event.

If they hadn't brought it up then I would never have known so I would be none the wiser.

It was definietly their attitude that made it so upsetting. If it was a case of medical necessity of course it would be different. But any type of RIC would have the same effect on me. Maybe I wouldn't have been so sickened by it but ultimately it's all the same whether it's "to look like daddy" or for "cleanliness."

I actually only know of 2 couples IRL who have had their sons circumcised. Both have this same sort of joking attitude about it. Both from DPs extended family as well. Both had to travel interstate to have it performed by one Dr who still performs it. Both for the "to look like daddy" reason :(

[rainbow road]

I think when most people say they are anti-circ they mean anti-RIC.

I know, for me, I would never leave a child in excruciating pain, time and time again, just because I’m anti-circ, that’s just ludicrous.

So, all anti-RIC’s don’t forget to add your clause: except under extreme medical conditions.:ecomcity:

Thanks for that. :) I realise most people are anti RIC and agree with exceptions but the thing I quoted sounded all encompassing and judgmental imo. :shakehands:

[Mummy2Noah]

To be honest, I really don't even think about it. I don't have a son- so I've never had to make this decision before but still, I've never thought that greatly about it. I'm more worried about what's going with my children and the desicions I have to make rather then other parents and their children.
:yelclap: Great Post Krissy!!!

I Do have a son and Yes I did get him Circed and luckily for me thats my decision as his mother, I dont judge mothers that "dont" do it, so I dont understand why they should judge me:thumbsdown:. I dont judge other people for there everyday choices as a parent, you have your rights its a free country. I have my own child to look after, and care for with out worrying what joe blow and his 6 sisters are doing!!! Its quiet funny actually.

[kiwibird27]

Yes

[MoonstoneMumma]

Well, because to me it is a human rights issue, and people who consent to RIC on behalf of their babies I believe are stripping their children of basic human rights, then I do feel a bit shall we say 'negative' towards them, I feel sad that in a lot of cases babies have no advocate.

Actually I find it heartbreaking.

:iagree: very well put :yes: if they want to get it done later, then so be it - let them be the ones to decide. i just wonder if the mum's had ever put themselves in their son's shoes - would you miss your clitoris?

[stellarella]

Circumcision is not "just another parenting decision".....it's a human rights issue. It goes waaaaaay above and beyond "parental rights."

[xkwzit]

A few off topic posts have been deleted. Please keep to the OP: "do you think badly of parents who circ?"

Feel free to start a new thread to discuss other issues, but let's keep this one on topic.

Cheers

[Lil Mamma]

Circumcision is not "just another parenting decision".....it's a human rights issue.

No - child abuse, neglect and molestation are human rights issues, all of which are legally punishable.

[Phyllis Stein]

If RIC isn't a human rights issue, then I guess none of us have an ethical or legal right to genital integrity.

[MissSookyLaLa]

LOL!!!

No, wouldnt think badly but I agree with some people that it does show a difference of beliefs which can affect your friendship in general...

[Beany]

Sometimes. There are some reasons that, while not acceptable in my eyes, I do find more forgivable. But yes, sometimes I do negatively judge the people that would forcibly remove a functioning and useful body part from another human being without their explicit and informed consent.

[Stack]

I try not to judge people who circ... but I just can't see where people are coming from. Personally, I find it no different to female circ and think it should be illegal aside from a genuine medical reason. Religious reasons arn't even a good enough excuse, *most* religions that do do it, draw from the bible as a reason for doing so - now given the amount of **** already in the bible that we ignore whats another one thing?

[RedPanda]

I said I don't think badly of them, and that's true, but for the ones who want to look like daddy I must admit that I do wonder how they explain the pubic hair... :detective:

Presumably there'd also be a marked difference in size :laughing:

[rainbow road]

I try not to judge people who circ... but I just can't see where people are coming from. Personally, I find it no different to female circ and think it should be illegal aside from a genuine medical reason. Religious reasons arn't even a good enough excuse, *most* religions that do do it, draw from the bible as a reason for doing so - now given the amount of **** already in the bible that we ignore whats another one thing?

Most people circumcised for religious reasons grow up in a religious family who cultivate values and spiritual health in their children. They appreciate the ritual elements of their childhood and pass their religion onto their offspring and so on and so forth and this is particularly evident in Islam and Judaism (or any religious family really) where faith is not something you can separate from other aspects of life. It is all encompassing and in secular Australia it is difficult to understand just how pivotal faith and religion can be to some communities.

You can't generalise and say religion is not a good enough reason to circumcise until you find yourself in the thick of a rich community of faith and then make that decision.

Does that make sense? I don't think anyone has the right to decide if religious reasons are valid or not :no:.

JMO and I accept yours as well, this isn't an attack, just my musings.

[~Candy~]

I usually stay right away from this secion...but after just flicking through the reply's...it's nice to see that there is quite a lot of ppl out there happy to pass judgment on what we pro circs choose with our sons.

One thing I do want to ask those who instantly get angry/mad/dislike those who circ their bub's...what do you do when you meet new friends ect...you find you both connect, your kids get on fantastic...then come nappy change time or whatever...and you notice the boy is circ???

Do you say..."oh, your son is circ, how cruel", end of friendship?
Do you lecture them and try to make them feel bad?
Just curious :confused:

[bronny-jane]

i wouldnt try to make anyone feel bad about something they have done.. no changing it now is there:no:

i would ask why they choose to do it.. im just a nosey person irl anyway:yes:

if im talking to someone who is deciding whether or not to cir... i'll do my best to convince them not too:yes:

so far, ive saved 2 foreskins from annihilation:p

i am anti circ.. not an anti christ... not going to ridicule people:no:.. not who i am..

[NibbleCurlynBub]

No.. Why should I?

Parenting decisions are hard to make, I would just hope that they were informed when making whatever decision that was made.

Not like my angry thoughts would make a difference anyway. :no:

I'd probably be more confused as to how a discussion ended up happening about our children's genitals..
:iagree: :)

[MordecaiAliVanAllenO'Shea]

I dont feel angry or badly of them as such - more frustrated and confused when it's done with no thought or consideration, for no medical or even religious reason, just as a matter of course.

If I saw a child was circumcised (change room, swimming pool, whatever) I wouldnt feel badly because I dont know the family or their circumstances. It's only in cases with people I know well and they have talked about it and I have known they've just done it as a routine thing that I get frustrated and confused really as to why???!!!!!

[Beany]

Disliking one aspect of a person's parenting doesn't turn me off that person. Most of my closest friends' children are circumcised and I still adore them and their kids.

[Pax]

on human rights issues: this thread is making me look forward to the day when having an opinion on everything is not a human right...

Where have people's manners and respect gone...

Oh thats right.. it went when it became the duty of each individual to voice their opinions on everything.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[bronny-jane]

on human rights issues: this thread is making me look forward to the day when having an opinion on everything is not a human right...

Where have people's manners and respect gone...

Oh thats right.. it went when it became the duty of each individual to voice their opinions on everything.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

having a nice day today:D

[Phyllis Stein]

Most people circumcised for religious reasons grow up in a religious family who cultivate values and spiritual health in their children. They appreciate the ritual elements of their childhood and pass their religion onto their offspring and so on and so forth and this is particularly evident in Islam and Judaism (or any religious family really) where faith is not something you can separate from other aspects of life. It is all encompassing and in secular Australia it is difficult to understand just how pivotal faith and religion can be to some communities.

You can't generalise and say religion is not a good enough reason to circumcise until you find yourself in the thick of a rich community of faith and then make that decision.

Does that make sense? I don't think anyone has the right to decide if religious reasons are valid or not :no:.

JMO and I accept yours as well, this isn't an attack, just my musings.

But where does it end? Some truly abhorrent things are done to people in the name of religion or culture, including FGM. The proponents of such things would say exactly what you do. When do the rights of the child come into play? Never? I draw a line saying that interfering with a child's body with no genuine medical reason is wrong, no matter which God says otherwise.


I usually stay right away from this secion...but after just flicking through the reply's...it's nice to see that there is quite a lot of ppl out there happy to pass judgment on what we pro circs choose with our sons.

One thing I do want to ask those who instantly get angry/mad/dislike those who circ their bub's...what do you do when you meet new friends ect...you find you both connect, your kids get on fantastic...then come nappy change time or whatever...and you notice the boy is circ???

Do you say..."oh, your son is circ, how cruel", end of friendship?
Do you lecture them and try to make them feel bad?
Just curious :confused:

Absolutely not! I'd wonder to myself if there was a medical reason or not. If I knew them well, they'd probably know my feelings on RIC anyway. If I didn't know them, what would be the point of saying something? It's already done anyway. :confused:


on human rights issues: this thread is making me look forward to the day when having an opinion on everything is not a human right...

Where have people's manners and respect gone...

Oh thats right.. it went when it became the duty of each individual to voice their opinions on everything.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

The right to bodily autonomy, the right to not be interfered with without consent is an enshrined human right. It's not a rhetorical statement. There are all kinds of levels of 'rights', including what many people call 'parent's rights'. I believe that one person's rights end where another's begin - a parent's rights do not extend to altering their son's body without genuine medical need, as he has the right to bodily integrity.

As for our 'right' to an opinion on 'everything', this is a parenting forum where numerous issues involving parenting choices are debated. Kinda goes with the territory. :)

[SassyMummy]

If someone asks for opinions, they've got to expect that they'll get positive and negative replies.

IMO, it's a bit rude to offer your opinion, particularly when it's negative, if nobody has asked... but in the case of this thread (and most of the threads in this section of the forum), opinions are asked for.

I think it's fair that everyone has been truthful and said their bit. If it's asked for... well, you can't complain when you don't agree.

I, for one, would hate to see the day when voicing one's opinion when asked is banned.

[Beany]

Having a contrary point of view, expressed when it is asked for, is not an infringement of human rights.

Having a contrary position does not amount to a lack of manners nor a lack of respect.

[melly75]

My 3 oldest boys arent done but bub had to be done as he had a blockage from his bladder to his penis which needed to be operated on as it caused urine to backwash into the kidneys then he'd pee blood meaning there was an infection somewhere ,the surgeon said it would be highly recommended they circ him to stop any further UTI.
I listened to the surgeon and thought of my sons health in the future.If there was no issues I would not of got him done

[rainbow road]

But where does it end? Some truly abhorrent things are done to people in the name of religion or culture, including FGM. The proponents of such things would say exactly what you do. When do the rights of the child come into play? Never? I draw a line saying that interfering with a child's body with no genuine medical reason is wrong, no matter which God says otherwise.


This is the other side of the stick, and I don't agree with either side. I am majoring in both religion and human rights in my degree and it is really difficult to box different things which fall under categories of human rights. While my family is Jewish, I don't have children and I do know whether or not I would circumcise any of my future sons. I'm fairly certain that I won't anyway because I am all too conscious of this grey area.

However, it also has to be considered that not allowing someone to freely practice their religion is a breach of human rights as well. And while I don't believe it is in the same category (actually it isn't) as maintenance of bodily integrity, do you see the conflict? It's hypocritical to advocate one human right at the expense of another even if you feel more passionately about that particular one.

But I digress.

Finally, my point is this: if infant circumcision WAS made illegal, it would not be able to stop people getting their sons circumcised for medical reasons (as you support) OR religious reasons because their would be a clause in the law which loop-holed it for the purpose of maintaining the cultural and social right to practicing religion. (Otherwise it would be classed as racial discrimination.)

Complicated, right?

And also, if by some serious puppeteering on the lobbyist sides, it is made illegal in all cases except for medical reasons, it would not stop the practice. There would continue to exist backyard circumcisions for those passionate enough to want their sons circ'd (in this case I would suspect the majority would be for religious reasons). Outlawing something doesn't make it stop. Yes, it reduces the rates of infant circumcision, but for every infant 'saved' from circumcision there would most likely be another one who suffers serious, possibly deadly complications from a dodgy backyard circ.

Considering either way, it will continue to exist in some capacity wouldn't you rather it be performed by professionals who are more likely to perform it successfully and without tragic outcomes?

Phew, I really know how to :ecomcity:

[rainbow road]

I also want to add that I think one day, but probably not soon, governments will be brave enough to stand up and prevent RIC in the name of religion...but I don't think that will be until this generation of children are the ones calling the shots- at the very earliest.

Also sass I wasn't criticising anyones' opinion before, I was just adding some food for thought. I really don't care I just...you know...wanted to wind people up :rollseyes:. haha, sorry. Jokes!

[Phyllis Stein]

This is the other side of the stick, and I don't agree with either side. I am majoring in both religion and human rights in my degree and it is really difficult to box different things which fall under categories of human rights. While my family is Jewish, I don't have children and I do know whether or not I would circumcise any of my future sons. I'm fairly certain that I won't anyway because I am all too conscious of this grey area.

However, it also has to be considered that not allowing someone to freely practice their religion is a breach of human rights as well. And while I don't believe it is in the same category (actually it isn't) as maintenance of bodily integrity, do you see the conflict? It's hypocritical to advocate one human right at the expense of another even if you feel more passionately about that particular one.


The right to practice one's religion ends at the point at which it involves permanently modifying another's body without consent. I am well versed in communitarianism vs individualism on which arguments about human rights revolve, and in most cases, sit somewhere between the two ideologies. However, there is no distinction in my mind between FGM for cultural reasons and RIC for religious reasons. In both cases, the right of the child to practice their own religious/ cultural practices are not being interfered with by restricting these practices, but they are most definitely being interfered with by allowing them. Also, religion & culture are in constant flux, being shaped, redefined and adapted by individuals within.

[rainbow road]

Also, religion & culture are in constant flux, being shaped, redefined and adapted by individuals within.

I agree, and I think it's only a matter of time before it is well and truly left out of governmental policies AND the individual practices of adherents but I still don't think making it illegal is necessarily the best solution for some and a few other reasons I stated before.

Anyway...I'm happy to agree to disagree if you are :shakehands:

[Pax]

having a nice day today:D


Is it that obvious :laughing:

[Zana]

The right to bodily autonomy, the right to not be interfered with without consent is an enshrined human right. It's not a rhetorical statement. There are all kinds of levels of 'rights', including what many people call 'parent's rights'. I believe that one person's rights end where another's begin - a parent's rights do not extend to altering their son's body without genuine medical need, as he has the right to bodily integrity.



Is it all so crystal clear? Where do you draw the line? Is cutting a child's hair against his will also a violation of human rights., deciding to go forward with an operation without knowing for certain that it will not do more harm than good., immunizing your child because it 'seems' like the right thing to do.
Even in religious circles circumcision began for health reasons. It is said that 50 years from now everything we now treat as fact in the realm of medical science will be proven false.
It doesn't seem to me that there is a definite right and wrong here.... just differences in opinion

[mermaid2]

Yeah, I do. Especially when the reason given is "because Daddy is..." Genital modification for cosmetic reasons is NEVER right. I'm delighted to see that many Doctors are now refusing to perform circumcisions for anything other than TRUE medical reasons. If only more parents properly educated themselves instead of following the herd....Yeah, I know I am making myself sound like a total know it all, lol. But, do your homework, do all the research you can before making such a life altering decison for your baby boy...:no:

[andrewJ]

It's hypocritical to advocate one human right at the expense of another even if you feel more passionately about that particular one.

But we already do impose very obvious limits on freedom of religious expression, as we should. Girls are protected from circumcision, no matter what the girls parents, or now in the UK at least, even what the girl herself believes!


Some have told me that male circumcision is religious, whereas female circumcision is cultural.
As an atheist, this distinction is meaningless to me.

[Kayangel]

My son has just been circumcision for medical reasons, i would never willing put my baby though that pain, for me it wasnt my descion, my DS's said said he needed it done.

Having had my son done, its make me so much more against circumcision, i dont understand how ANYONE could get their baby circumcisioned? i dont understand how anyone could put there child though pain. :crying:

It breaks to my heart to think about all the babies who get circumcisioned for no good reason.

[Daviegirl]

I'm sorry but routine circumcision?????? That makes me sick in my stomach. Its disgusts me that people can make a decision that results in intentionally inflicting pain on their child. Other methods discussed such as the cap does not sound so bad, but to make it 'routine' again, I thought we had progressed beyond this as a society???? I am sorry but inflicting pain on a newborn, what reason is good enough for that??????:confused:

If it has to happen for medical reasons then so be it, but why are we fighting so hard to ban female circumcision yet turn a blind eye to male circumcision? Don't our little boys have feelings and rights too?

[jimmysmummy]

I'm sorry but routine circumcision?????? That makes me sick in my stomach. Its disgusts me that people can make a decision that results in intentionally inflicting pain on their child. Other methods discussed such as the cap does not sound so bad, but to make it 'routine' again, I thought we had progressed beyond this as a society???? I am sorry but inflicting pain on a newborn, what reason is good enough for that??????:confused:

If it has to happen for medical reasons then so be it, but why are we fighting so hard to ban female circumcision yet turn a blind eye to male circumcision? Don't our little boys have feelings and rights too?

:iagree:

Docking of dogs' tails is illegal in most states now (I think). That routine circumcision still happens confounds me.

[Little Gorilla]

I don't think badly of parents who circ babies. I don't think any parent who gets their child circ'd is wanting to actually hurt them and cause physical pain.

I feel more sorry for and loose much more sleep over children who are molested, abused, tortured, starved, verbally abused and made to feel worthless.....my heart goes out to those children and I think very very very badly of those parents.

[Daviegirl]

I don't think badly of parents who circ babies. I don't think any parent who gets their child circ'd is wanting to actually hurt them and cause physical pain.

I feel more sorry for and loose much more sleep over children who are molested, abused, tortured, starved, verbally abused and made to feel worthless.....my heart goes out to those children and I think very very very badly of those parents.


I don't think parents want to cause pain to their children, but whether they like it or not, it is their actions in deciding to have their children circumcised (for reasons such as Daddy's is, or religion - I mean if god meant for our boys not to have foreskins, he would have made it that way!) that causes them pain. I would say in a way this is intentional - remember I am talking about routine circumcision.....WRONG WRONG WRONG!

We agree so for females, so why are males being forgotten?

[brodiebunch]

Recently my whole opinion on parents who circ has changed.I used to feel bad for the baby etc like so many other,I never pushed my thoughts onto anyone.My thoughts now are this.How do we know the real reason why the parents had this done.Sometimes,like in my sisters case,it is just easier to say that they wanted him to look like daddy.Her baby boy had an epispadia and a dimple on his penis.He was born with half a foreskin and what looked like 3 holes but only 2 were.He needs surgerey to correct the problem.It is much easier for her to take the low opinions of others than to go into details of his "deformity" which he then jets judged for.So before I make a judjement I keep that in mind.After all does it really affect my daily life and qaulity of living if my friend circs her boy and I dont do mine?????????Not one bit.I am happy with my descision not to circ DS and that is all that matters.

[fiona76]

Sometimes curcumcision is unavoidable. Hypospadius and recurrent UTI's can cause serious medical conditions as a result of subsequent infections.

As for judging parents on their personal choice to circumcise, its really no one else's business. I have seen many very young children, including babies with their ears pierced. I am not too impressed with that, but at the end of the day, its their business. There are far worse actions to judge in the world.

[2girls&1boy]

As for judging parents on their personal choice to circumcise, its really no one else's business. I have seen many very young children, including babies with their ears pierced. I am not too impressed with that, but at the end of the day, its their business. There are far worse actions to judge in the world.

Well said.... It is their choice therefore their business. Why are we so quick to judge people and take this moral high ground?

[Maybelline]

If i was having a boy..yes i would circ..medical reasons...the research is there...

[mermaid2]

If i was having a boy..yes i would circ..medical reasons...the research is there...


Can you provide me with specific examples of this 'reseach' please?

[~Candy~]

If i was having a boy..yes i would circ..medical reasons...the research is there...

psst...this is the ANTI-circ thread...go over to the PRO-circ thread...no need to justify yourself there :) :thumbsup:

[Daviegirl]

Can you provide me with specific examples of this 'reseach' please?

:iagree:Please enlighten us as to what 'research' would validate removing skin from innocent baby boys?

[Daviegirl]

Well said.... It is their choice therefore their business. Why are we so quick to judge people and take this moral high ground?

Ah because babies cannot speak up for themselves!

[Lissa7]

During all 3 of my pregnancies I left the final decision up to my DH as I think he has one so he knows what is best for our child in that area. He was not circumcised as a child and got a terrible terrible infection and had to be circumcised at 9yrs and said he would never wish that upon anyone as it was awful therefore if we had a little boy he would of been circ'd!!!!!

This is such a personal subject and I don't think it's at all fair to judge parents after all we are all just doing what we feel is best for our own little ones

[alphafemale2901]

All I can say is that I wouldn't do it. I have a son and never even contemplated it. Whether someone else chooses to do it or not is none of my business and not for my comment or judgement. And, if for some reason my son developed an terrible infection by the time he was 9 or whatever and had to be cir'd for medical reasons, at least he would be able to have anaesthetic for the procedure.

[2girls&1boy]

Ah because babies cannot speak up for themselves!


So are you therefore saying because bub cannot speak for himself that his parents are somehow doing wrong by him by getting him circumcised???? Isn't that a little arrogant? thinking that you know better than his parent, and that is just it YOU THINK you know better.

[Daviegirl]

So are you therefore saying because bub cannot speak for himself that his parents are somehow doing wrong by him by getting him circumcised???? Isn't that a little arrogant? thinking that you know better than his parent, and that is just it YOU THINK you know better.

The reality is that if we did not speak up for babies, we would not know many of the things we do now, simple things such as many years ago it was believed that babies didn't feel pain etc. If we didn't look into these things we wouldn't move forward as a society. I'm sorry but there is obviously something wrong with it if even many doctors are not willing to perform it. As I said I understand if medically it has to be done and I don't think anyone would disbute that however to just do it for aesthetic reasons, well I think that is what is ARROGANT! I don't think I am being arrogant at all, I mean really how would you like it if you had your mouth tapped shut so you could not protest and then someone starts slicing skin off you? Its common sense really......:p

[Cicho]

I did not have my boy done ( he is 3 1/2 ), and in saying that I did not think of it when he was born, but nobody ( family, friends or medicos ) approached me about it either...

My personal opinion is I wouldn't let it happen to my son unless it was medically necessary :):)

[rastabub]

I am afraid I dont think highly of that particular choice, no.

[rastabub]

I havnt actually read anyone here saying this, but I have often heard people justifying their choice to circumsise, by saying they didnt want their son to "look different" from their dad.
I have never met a women who was worried about her vagina looking exactly the same as her daughter.:confused:

[mermaid2]

So, I am truly interested in hearing what you think are the most valid reasons for circumcision....Please divulge!!!!!;)

[andrewJ]

the list of valid reasons for circumcising a baby is as follows;


1. medical necessity - to cure an existing (actual) medical condition.




The list is exactly the same for every other body part.

[bronny-jane]

I have never met a women who was worried about her vagina looking exactly the same as her daughter.:confused:

:laughing: that is so true..nice call:D

[Jo_Jo]

There are lots of things in life we do good or bad we regret! right!!
I remember at the age of 22 when i was having my 2nd child, after his birth and i was settled back home i remember my ex and ex mil sat down and said to me we need to talk about bubby being circumcised, i was like excuse me ummmm noooooo oh it turned into a huge family fued, with my ex saying those pathetic words of but then his will be like mine......who the hell cares i said, he was born with it and im not putting him in pain so you and your mother feel better about yourselves and i stuck by it, but for years later they would comment on it in there own smartarse ways.
I feel life is hard enough at times and all of us have medical problems at one stage or another why oh why would i put my littles baby boys through that.....:no:
Im glad i stood my ground and never let them bully me into something so bloody stupid to me!

[pookiesossige]

I don't label *them* as bad, but it doesn't mean that I agree with circumcising. I think it's more that I couldn't do it to my son, and I would certainly feel sad for any baby boy who went through that.

I asked my DH if he wishes his parents hadn't had him circ'ed, and he said of course, he would much rather that they had left him alone. I wonder how many men out there think that? :detective:

I believe that a lot of men think that :yes:

Regarding the OP... well, a honest question calls for an honest answer. Yes, I do think somewhat 'badly' of parents for circ'ing their boys. It doesn't mean I think they are bad parents or bad people- but I do think poorly of them a little for their choice to modify their son's genitals.

It's human nature, isn't it? When you feel this passionate about something and believe that it's wrong to do it?

[lavagirl]

To be honest...IRL it has never come up wether a boy is circ or not. I have only noticed ppl talk about it online as in a discussion or wanting advise.
I certainly dont go around asking ppl or looking at other ppls sons penis to see if they are circ :eek:
It's none of my bussiness :)
I mean, if their son was walking around holding his privates and crying about why he looks different from other boys ect, then it would be different...but no boy I've ever met/seen has been like this!

[Verdi]

I don't care!
Parents are there to make decisions for their baby - it is their right to make their choices on their little boy whether anyone else agrees with it or not- As parents we make choices for what kind of lifestyle they are raised in, we dictate the religion they foillow, the clothes they wear - the food they eat, the medicines we give.
I don't circ but will never ever judge a parent if they do - it's just stupid and really to be honest i think the attention on this subject is somehow annoying- you can disagree but to have a thread to actually promote judgement on a loving parents choice is very sad.
If you want to get technical we are all up in arms about a loving parents decision to circ but we have some on here who say we have to act on behalf of the baby - the baby has no voice to be honest i see that as no different to abortion.
Yet we say its a womans choice over the baby but when it comes to haveing the baby it is no longer the parents choice to make an informed decision on circumsicion:confused: Do you see the irony.

All i am interested in is that the baby and child is loved by their mum and dad - anything else is irrelevant.

[NibbleCurlynBub]

I believe that a lot of men think that :yes:
:yes: Brett does.

I don't think its so much as the fact that he is circed, but more that he didn't get any say in the fact.

You can circ a regular penis but you can't get foreskin back once its gone. :no:

[sam's mum]

I don't care!
Parents are there to make decisions for their baby - it is their right to make their choices on their little boy whether anyone else agrees with it or not- As parents we make choices for what kind of lifestyle they are raised in, we dictate the religion they foillow, the clothes they wear - the food they eat, the medicines we give.
I don't circ but will never ever judge a parent if they do - it's just stupid and really to be honest i think the attention on this subject is somehow annoying- you can disagree but to have a thread to actually promote judgement on a loving parents choice is very sad.
If you want to get technical we are all up in arms about a loving parents decision to circ but we have some on here who say we have to act on behalf of the baby - the baby has no voice to be honest i see that as no different to abortion.
Yet we say its a womans choice over the baby but when it comes to haveing the baby it is no longer the parents choice to make an informed decision on circumsicion:confused: Do you see the irony.

All i am interested in is that the baby and child is loved by their mum and dad - anything else is irrelevant.

I don't think it is ironic at all. you are assuming that I am against ric, but believe that abortion is ok.

[NeilR]

Well said.... It is their choice therefore their business. Why are we so quick to judge people and take this moral high ground?

Well some will feel the need to judge because they feel it afirms the choices that they have made and makes them feel that they are doing the right thing.
Some will judge because they want to be part of a clique and then point the finger at others. This is a bit tragic and a very 'Heathers' situation, but really very common in all areas of child rearing.
Some might have a honestly held conviction, but the manner and willingness to express such might give you cause to judge their character.
Unfortunately there is no official guide or rule book produced in the womb for each child telling you how to do best for your child, in fact you get more instruction for a cheap DVD player from Aldi. There is also no requirement for any training or education prior to having children, whereas you need to do a whole lot more to keep some pets or drive a car. It is perhaps because of this constant uncertanty that many seek to measure their performance as parents against those of others or via the opinion of others, which is never the best thing to do given the frailty of the parenting psyche.

[tyler's mum]

No not at all if i had a boy i would get him done

[HousebumMum]

I don't think badly of any parent that has made an informed choice to circumcise their son. I sometimes feel sorry for parents who were ill-informed and just went ahead with the procedure because of the 'everyone else I know has done it or I just did it because........ mentality' and then have regretted it later. I don't think badly about them though.

It is one of those either you choose to or you don't things, there is no in between and unfortunately there will be people both pro and anti circ ready to attack your decision.

At the end of the day, I don't think badly about any parent who makes a decision that they feel is right for their child. (Obviously there are the bad case scenarios where people do bad things intentionally to harm their children, but I am not referring to them).

[sprite]

No i dont think badly of parents who choose to circ there sons-it is there choice n they do not think they are doing harm to their boys by doing it.

I have a baby boy and chose not to circ. I didnt fully research it - i know some of reasons people do it such as cleanliness and just in case they get infections.

To me this just in case scenario did not make sense-you could get an infection anywhere on your body eg toe or appendix does that mean you amputate or remove these parts just in case! I believe nature in all its wisdom made males bodies that way, the foreskin is meant to be there so who am i to say theres something wrong with it and it has to be removed, plus i did not want to cause my ds pain.

My husbands father is islamic (not fully strict but enough to expect my ds to be circed) my dp was confliceted and not sure but i really stuck by my guns and stayed strong and let them know this was not something i was goint to allow to happen-it was unnecessary.

If for some reason something medically comes up and it has to be done for medical reasons than yes i would do it, but it would have to be truly necessary.

My nephew was not circed and he is 18 now and has never had a problem. (asked my sis wanted to know if he ever did get an infection when deciding on what i was going to do).:)

[mylight]

I have been sitting here in tears reading about everyone's opinions of parents who have made the choice to circumcise their sons, mostly because I know that regardless of the reasons we had, I will be judged too.
If you noticed that my son was circumcised you would not be able to tell if it was done for religious reasons or not, if his parents researched tirelessly for months or not, if there was a medical indication for it or not, if his parents regretted the decision or not, or if his mother cried for weeks after it was done. You cannot tell by looking that his mother loves him to the ends of the earth. And that although people may judge quietly or loudly that she still wants him to feel good about himself and to grow into a boy who has a positive self image about his body.
I will not write down our reasons for doing it because, while defendable, you will not be able to hear my voice when making judgements about me if you saw my son. But please know that I am an educated, informed person and I that I love my son.

[Daviegirl]

Can someone explain to me how modern day circumcisions are done?

I get very passionate about this issue as I struggle to see how male circumcision differs from female circumcision. I am sure under medical necessity one would circumcise, but if I was to ask a doctor to circumcise my daughter I would have DOCs on my doorstep by the time I got home. I really just don't get it. What really gets my goat is where someone back in the thread wants to see it as routine in hospitals again, makes me want to cry for their children...

[Cicho]

My DH is circd but no1 son is not and if this baby is a boy it won't be either..
I don't think badly of parents who do circ, I'm sure they have their own reasons which I will respect.

I think back when DH was born, if the father was done the son was automatically circed because they believed in the father/son being alike thing.

I can't blame them for that when that was the done thing at the time, and was done without a second thought.
Maybe now (30 odd years later) we are a bit more liberal and educated in regards to our babies.

I also believe that this generation is more free thinking then our parents and grandparents, who relied a lot on extended family for support and advice regarding these matters :)

But in short the answer is no, I do not think badly of parents who do circ for whatever reason

[SaraG]

I have been sitting here in tears reading about everyone's opinions of parents who have made the choice to circumcise their sons, mostly because I know that regardless of the reasons we had, I will be judged too.
If you noticed that my son was circumcised you would not be able to tell if it was done for religious reasons or not, if his parents researched tirelessly for months or not, if there was a medical indication for it or not, if his parents regretted the decision or not, or if his mother cried for weeks after it was done. You cannot tell by looking that his mother loves him to the ends of the earth. And that although people may judge quietly or loudly that she still wants him to feel good about himself and to grow into a boy who has a positive self image about his body.
I will not write down our reasons for doing it because, while defendable, you will not be able to hear my voice when making judgements about me if you saw my son. But please know that I am an educated, informed person and I that I love my son.

I hear you hon. I feel exactly the same. :hugs:

[farmerswife]

I have been sitting here in tears reading about everyone's opinions of parents who have made the choice to circumcise their sons, mostly because I know that regardless of the reasons we had, I will be judged too.
If you noticed that my son was circumcised you would not be able to tell if it was done for religious reasons or not, if his parents researched tirelessly for months or not, if there was a medical indication for it or not, if his parents regretted the decision or not, or if his mother cried for weeks after it was done. You cannot tell by looking that his mother loves him to the ends of the earth. And that although people may judge quietly or loudly that she still wants him to feel good about himself and to grow into a boy who has a positive self image about his body.
I will not write down our reasons for doing it because, while defendable, you will not be able to hear my voice when making judgements about me if you saw my son. But please know that I am an educated, informed person and I that I love my son.

:hugs: :hugs: :hugs:
Thankyou for expressing so beautifully the words i could not find to to explain how i feel.
:hugs: :hugs: :hugs:

[Joju]

I see circumcision [text removed by moderator] completely unnecessary. Why put your infant son through pain and suffering when it's not medically necessary to do so? (and in most cases, it isn't).

Foreskins are there for a reason...they protect the penis.

I just can't bring myself to understand why people choose to do this to their children...when there is so much information available that refutes the need for it.

[taththi]

I understand that many parents who chose to circumcise from strong beliefs, be it religious or cultural, but for me it's simply not excusable. By doing it you're denying your child the choice in their own body, which to me is sacrosanct. All the reasons to do so outside religion have been thoroughly debunct, so again, there is no excuse in my opinion, it's just genital mutilation by another name.

So to answer the question, I don't think "bad" necessarily, but they are either a) not informed of the facts that it provides no health benefits or b) are informed but have over-ruled that information on religious or cultural grounds. So in case of a) I would understand that not everyone can always be informed on everything, but in the case of b) I would be troubled that the parents have put their own choices above that of their child for no benefit of the child.

[Mrs Mermaid]

Honestly I do think badly of them. Same way I think badly of a pregnant womant that smokes and other things that harm a baby.

About a year ago I sat in the doctors surgery and could hear the screams of a boy being circed. I thought I would vomit and I dont think I will ever be able to get his screams out of my head.

[BigRedV]

A friend of mine got her son done. I have known her for 20 years. We went to high school together. Her DH is so that was her reasoning. I don't care what she decide to do for her children. What is it to me? He's not my child. I wouldn't get my son done but I definitely don't think less of her because of it. She is still a good friend.

Wouldn't it be great if circumcision issues were the only problems in the world...to me, there are more important things to worry about.

I won't be losing any sleep or friendships over someone else's decision to circumcise.

[JohnC]

The risk factors for routine circumcision in Australia have been well enough researched:
1. Living in a regional or other community with existing high levels of RIC
2. A partner who is circumcised
3. Anglo-Celtic extraction
4. Lower level of education

When all four of these factors co-exist, the risk of RIC is very high (about 70%).

Alternatively, RIC rates in say inner-suburban Sydney are in the order of 5%.

So however abhorrent and irrational one finds the practice, there is no point getting upset at the individuals and their rationalisations - they are the bearers of social norms, not the inventors of those norms.

The question is a pragmatic one: how to communicate, convince, provide support etc. Hard to do if one is getting moralistic and judgemental about the very individuals you are trying to convince.

Having said that though, I would find it as difficult to form a personal friendship with someone who actively supports RIC as I would with someone who home-schools their children to insulate them from evolutionary theory and inculcate them with Iron Age mythology.

[MimiGrace]

Having said that though, I would find it as difficult to form a personal friendship with someone who actively supports RIC as I would with someone who home-schools their children to insulate them from evolutionary theory and inculcate them with Iron Age mythology.
I know this is going to be Off topic, but are you referring to home-schoolers who do so soley because they want to insulate them.
or home-schoolers in general (since i don't know any home-schoolers who do so to inculcate them with iron age mythology).

[MilkOnTap]

Do you think badly of parents who circumcise their baby?



Yes. I think badly of parents who circumcise their babies.

[JohnC]

I know this is going to be Off topic, but are you referring to home-schoolers who do so soley because they want to insulate them.
or home-schoolers in general (since i don't know any home-schoolers who do so to inculcate them with iron age mythology).

The former. Very common in the US. Less so here, but it definitely happens eg ACE. I'm with Richard Dawkins in thinking this is a form of intellectual child abuse. Hence the connection. Further discussion should probably go to the home schooling thread (sorry mods:o)

[reAllytee]

Do you think badly of parents who circumcise their baby?



Yes. I think badly of parents who circumcise their babies.



Note to self ......

[HousebumMum]

Do you think badly of parents who circumcise their baby?



Yes. I think badly of parents who circumcise their babies.

Wow. God forbid someone circumcise their child for their own PERSONAL reasons that affect you in no way.

[bada]

I try not to judge, that being said I don't agree with putting a baby through unnecessary pain for purely cosmetic reasons. So when I hear of a parent doing it I do wonder how informed they were before makiing the decision.

So, I don't think badly of them, but it does make me wonder...

[Little Gorilla]

Wow, I'm suprised that there are actually mums on here that would treat people differently if they found out their friends's son was circumcised.

I can't believe that if my friends happened to see my son's penis or I mentioned to them in conversation that he was circumsised that this fact alone would change their feelings towards me. What a huge judgement on someone.

And to be honest, I don't think I would want a "friend" in my life that would judge me on this thing alone.

My son's circ was medically necessary - if it hadn't been, we wouldn't have got him done.

But anyway, I don't base my friendships on what parents have decided to do regarding their son's penis.

[JohnC]

Wow. God forbid someone circumcise their child for their own PERSONAL reasons that affect you in no way.

There is a fundamental misconception here that is running through the entire thread.

Children are no longer considered the property of parents. The child is the possessor of rights in relation to their own bodily integrity, not the parents -- they have a responsibility to uphold the rights of their child.

The entire child protection system is based on the fact parents do not have some unfettered "right" to treat the child however they wish, and community members are often encouraged to be alert to, and concerned about, instances of mistreatment.

Female circumcision is a clear example of this principle in operation.

That male circumcision should be considered differently at the moment is simply an artefact of a bizarre cultural tradition, not some valid exception to a now well-established ethical principle.

Unnecessary surgery on children is a violation of their rights, and those who oppose the practice (in girls or boys) are not violating some mythical parental right but expressing a community-minded attitude that would be commended in any other circumstance.

[bada]

:yelclap:Love your work JohnC!
And your avatar too but that's another thread...

[circangel]

No I do not think badly of them at all.

[HousebumMum]

There is a fundamental misconception here that is running through the entire thread.

Children are no longer considered the property of parents. The child is the possessor of rights in relation to their own bodily integrity, not the parents -- they have a responsibility to uphold the rights of their child.

The entire child protection system is based on the fact parents do not have some unfettered "right" to treat the child however they wish, and community members are often encouraged to be alert to, and concerned about, instances of mistreatment.

Female circumcision is a clear example of this principle in operation.

That male circumcision should be considered differently at the moment is simply an artefact of a bizarre cultural tradition, not some valid exception to a now well-established ethical principle.

Unnecessary surgery on children is a violation of their rights, and those who oppose the practice (in girls or boys) are not violating some mythical parental right but expressing a community-minded attitude that would be commended in any other circumstance.

Yes, but I wasn't referring to 'unecessary surgery' was I? I was referring to the statement that the poster made which was a blunt one saying that she does think badly of people who circumcise their children. I don't see how you can think badly of someone when you don't know the circumstances surrounding their decision and I think it is naive to assume that every single parent who has made a decision to circumcise their child has done it without any regard for their child whatsoever. You cannot generalise and pigeon-hole people under one banner when it comes to this issue. Every parent who makes this decision has their reasons, some may seem right, some may seem wrong, but at the end of the day, to say that you think badly of every parent that makes that choice, is just thoughtless in my opinion.

[forbetoel]

Do you think badly of parents who circumcise their baby?



Yes. I think badly of parents who circumcise their babies.

:iagree:

That doesn't mean that I think that they are bad parents but I do think badly of their choice to circ their son.

I just don't get the whole "we researched for months' thing.:confused: There is no research to support RIC, unless of course we are talking about the if's buts and maybes.

[ck2b]

I haven't read all the posts but to answer the OP-yes I do. I think it is done to please the parents rather then benefit the child in any way.

[JohnC]

Yes, but I wasn't referring to 'unecessary surgery' was I?
... Every parent who makes this decision has their reasons, some may seem right, some may seem wrong ...

The OP, and indeed the entire thread, is a discussion of routine circumcision, which is by definition "unnecessary surgery" *, and the parental justifications given for this.

My point, and that of other posters, is that routine circumcision is always wrong in principle, and that parents have no ethical right to impose it on their children -- boys or girls.

The reasons given for both operations are in fact identical: social conformity, hygiene, health prophylaxis, sexual aesthetics. It is not a question of "seem right/seem wrong". They are always wrong.

---------------
* As a footnote, valid medical indications for circumcisions are exceedingly rare in infants, and the lifetime chance of a male requiring a circumcision is less than 40 in 1000, and falling with advances in medical practice. But that is a different topic.

[MilkOnTap]

Wow, I'm suprised that there are actually mums on here that would treat people differently if they found out their friends's son was circumcised.

I said nothing about treating people differently. A lot of my friends circ for all sorts of reasons.

Its just not a choice that I could make for my child.

[JohnC]

And, for good measure, I regard the unofficial "circumcision referral service" that is run out of the Pro-Circ section as immoral, and I think badly of those who participate in it and condone it. I would be a hypocrite if I said otherwise.

[HousebumMum]

The OP, and indeed the entire thread, is a discussion of routine circumcision, which is by definition "unnecessary surgery" *, and the parental justifications given for this.

My point, and that of other posters, is that routine circumcision is always wrong in principle, and that parents have no ethical right to impose it on their children -- boys or girls.

The reasons given for both operations are in fact identical: social conformity, hygiene, health prophylaxis, sexual aesthetics. It is not a question of "seem right/seem wrong". They are always wrong.

---------------
* As a footnote, valid medical indications for circumcisions are exceedingly rare in infants, and the lifetime chance of a male requiring a circumcision is less than 40 in 1000, and falling with advances in medical practice. But that is a different topic.

Yes it is a different topic and once again I am pointing out that my issue is not with the OP or the topic. I just selected out a post that I disagreed with. The point being that I don't think we should think badly of ALL parents who have decided to circumcise their children, even the routine ones. None of us can presume to know why these parents have made the choice and I, for one, are not going to condemn every single one of them just because I might not agree with their choice.

[sam's mum]

Yes it is a different topic and once again I am pointing out that my issue is not with the OP or the topic. I just selected out a post that I disagreed with. The point being that I don't think we should think badly of ALL parents who have decided to circumcise their children, even the routine ones. None of us can presume to know why these parents have made the choice and I, for one, are not going to condemn every single one of them just because I might not agree with their choice.

no one said condemn.

[forbetoel]

routine circumcision is always wrong in principle, and that parents have no ethical right to impose it on their children -- boys or girls.



.

That pretty much sums it up for me. :thumbsup:

[JohnC]

The point being that I don't think we should think badly of ALL parents who have decided to circumcise their children, even the routine ones. None of us can presume to know why these parents have made the choice and I, for one, are not going to condemn every single one of them just because I might not agree with their choice.

You're right that condemning is not always the best tactic if our aim is to stop the practice, which was the point of my first post (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showpost.php?p=3592653&postcount=181).

But that doesn't change the moral calculus. It's wrong. And I think the thread question "think badly of" is an expression of that sentiment.

[Becteria]

John C for PM>.....:yelclap:

[circangel]

Don't cut the umbilical cord after birth.

[HousebumMum]

Don't cut the umbilical cord after birth.

I believe he is trying to say that if people who have an issue with surgically removing a part of their child's body, then why do not they not mind having the umbilical cord cut after birth which is technically part of the child's body also.

I am not agreeing with this statement, just explaining it as I think it is what he is trying to say.

[Fuchsia!]

well in that case it wouldn't concern me as im hopefully considering a lotus birth for any future children :)

[bada]

I believe he is trying to say that if people who have an issue with surgically removing a part of their child's body, then why do not they not mind having the umbilical cord cut after birth which is technically part of the child's body also.

I am not agreeing with this statement, just explaining it as I think it is what he is trying to say.

I thought that could have been what he was getting at.
There are ppl who agree with that theory too, is that called Isis birth? Where they leave the placenta andd cord attached until it falls off naturally.

I don't think it's comparable though, the umbilical cord will always fall off anyway, where as I have not heard of a foreskin falling off naturally, perhaps I'm just sheltered :laughing:

ETA ah Lotus birth is the name, thnx Jaxcoop good luck with it

[Fuchsia!]

I thought that could have been what he was getting at.
There are ppl who agree with that theory too, is that called Isis birth? Where they leave the placenta andd cord attached until it falls off naturally.

I don't think it's comparable though, the umbilical cord will always fall off anyway, where as I have not heard of a foreskin falling off naturally, perhaps I'm just sheltered :laughing:

Lotus birth :)

[joolz79]

No I don't think badly of parents who circ their babies and honestly I'm kind of baffled as to why people do. I'm pretty sure people don't go in thinking, "hey, there's this totally unnecessary, potentially painful surgery I can get done on my little boy, let's do it." People who circ their children believe they are doing the right thing to protect their sons from infection and STDs. Why would I think badly of someone for doing what they believe is best for their child.
I do, however, think badly of medical professionals who encourage parents to get their sons circed for no good reason :banghead:

[forbetoel]

It is not really my business after the child is done - it is a permanent procedure. That doesn't mean the thought of it doesn't make me sad though. It is my business however to help raise awareness of what I consider to be a quite brutal and outdated procedure, and hope that expectant mothers and fathers of little boys read and educate themselves with the 'real' information on RIC.

A recent thread has a post by a woman who has changed her mind on circing her baby son. Thats all anti-RICers can hope for. That is our business. One more little boy won't go throught this painful unnecessary procedure.:)

[ZoeRiley]

If the body did not need it, the poor little boys would not be born with it.

I would not circumcise my daughter, or chop of a dogs tail. there is no way in the world I would ever be so cruel as to take away part of my beautiful baby boy.

Unlike others - I do judge. As a mother it is your responsibility to protect your baby not surgically modify it.

If my son as a grown man chooses to have it done well and good, it will be his decision. :thumbsup:

[Beany]

And when little girls are in their tribal dresses, you wouldn't know which girl had been circumcised and which hadn't.

Just because the results of the actions aren't visible to the public at large, it doesn't make them somehow right.

[Fuchsia!]

LOL..that's just my point!
Unless you SEE a circed boy..how do you know...why is it anyones bussiness?...the child is happy and normal..you couldn't pick em out....!!!

They may be happy now but what about later on when they are old enough to understand whats going on with their bodies? When they realise that their parents made a huge decision that could impact his life in so many ways physically and emotionally.

And as 4B2L said its my business to raise awareness of such an unnecessary and painful and life altering thing.

[WorkingClassMum]

I was speaking to a work collegue yesterday who was railroaded (her words) into circ'ng her son 42 years ago. She still regrets it to this day and was very vocal in insisting that her grandsons remained au natural.

B has regretted her husband's actions and her inability to speak up for her son since he was 7 days old and still carries enormous guilt.

Then, all 7 women at work all spoke up about the fact that they'd all decided to not circ their sons

One of the first things my father did after my mother left was to get my elder brother circ'd.

I was flabbergasted to hear him say to our counsellor that he is very angry with my father.

Prior to being a Hubber and reading thread like this I'd never considered that circ'ng was such an emotive subject.

[Myztik]

Numerous unhelpful, off topic and rude posts have been deleted from this thread. Please keep it on track or it will be closed.

[Rabbity Babbity]

I don;t think badly of them, I just don;t think very much of them at all. It's sort of offensive making mods to an infants body, and I guess they're not the type of people I want to spend time with. UNLESS, there is some kind on unavoidable medical issue that requires a circ...

I also wonder about parents who circ their child and find it important to "share it with the world". I don;t want to hear about their sons "private bits", because it's not my business.

[Opinionated]

Yes I do.

I can't believe human rights organisations don't get this practice stopped.

Fair enough if down the track it is causing issues and is medically warranted.

I dated a guy who was scarred for life and had nerve damage from a dodgy circumcision. Also there is infection to think about. I just can't understand why a parent would do this.

There is no reason to circumcise a baby in my opinion.

[PaperTiger]

Yes, I do think badly of parents who circ their infants without proven and positive medical benefit.
I am very happy that RIC is now being shunned by the majority. :yelclap:
The day this practice is permantly relegated into the dark ages of history cannot come quickly enough for me. :smiliedance:

[Chunkydunks]

my newest nephew will be circed so he can look like his brothers:( and they were circed to look like their father:(

If a parent has done all the research and come to the conclusion that they'd rather do it then fine by me......but doing it to look like the rest of the family is just plain stupid.

[forbetoel]

my newest nephew will be circed so he can look like his brothers:( and they were circed to look like their father:(

If a parent has done all the research and come to the conclusion that they'd rather do it then fine by me......but doing it to look like the rest of the family is just plain stupid.

I agree - that is such an odd reason. One of my boys has different ears to his brothers, so by that reasoning I should be visiting a cosmetic surgeon. Oh and don't even get me started on his eyes - completely different to everyone else in the family.

[JaMM]

Does anyone know if circing is actually becoming more common again. My niece said she is getting her DS done and I was actually stunned. She told me she is going to the same Dr as many of her friends have used. I honestly believed it nearly to be a random thing parents now did and that the new generation of parents just didnt give it a second thought...how naive am I?

[Milliner]

Current rates sit between 11-15% aprox, depending on which state you're in.

[MW&S]

I don't think 'badly' of those who circ their sons.

However a few of my family members have circ'd their babies to look like a) the father and b) each other.
I very tactfully mentioned to them that they should do some research into it and think carefully and then make a decision. No idea if they did or not, but all 4 new boys in our family last year have been circ'd.

Guess if this baby is a boy, he will be the odd one out! :cool:

[forbetoel]

Guess if this baby is a boy, he will be the odd one out! :cool:


Well the odd one out if you put him next to the 4 boys from your family, but he will not be the odd one out in mainstream society.:yelclap:

[ashyashy]

I dont think there is any point in posting because everyone has their views and opionions.

All i say if let people do what they think is right - they are the parents and at the end of the day they are doing what they think is best for their children, you mighten agree but hey that is why we are all so different and the world would be a boring place if we were all the same! :)

[MamaLlama]

Yes. And try as I might I cannot respect the decision.

And I cannot respect people who do that to their kids.

I lived in the US many years and there it is very very standard, especially where we lived. It broke my heart to hear them in the hospital talking about how the Dr annoyed them by saying they had to wait 6 days and that would mean another trip to the hospital...why can't we just have it done NOW they'd whine.

I was thinking "you've got a newborn baby? Can't you leave him in tact for a week even?"

Also if I had a daughter I'd hate to think of her being with a boy raised to think he was either a) less obliged to wash just because his UTI rate was reduced by 1% or b) ever so slightly less likely to get HIV and so free to engage in unprotected sex. Both those are only false senses of security that parents impart to circ'd sons. At least if my DD was with a non-circ'd boy I'd be pretty sure he didn't have those ego-inflating dangerous misconceptions. He may have others of course but those are 2 I worry about.

Well there it is. I stay away from pro circ posts in the main, and pro circ people if at all possible. Frankly they aren't people I think I would have much in common with as their values are clearly completely at odds with mine so I don't think I'm losing any real friends.

And I think its perfectly normal to care about children other than your own. I don't want any child to fall off unsafe playground equipment. And that includes your kids :-)

[forbetoel]

I dont think there is any point in posting because everyone has their views and opionions.

All i say if let people do what they think is right - they are the parents and at the end of the day they are doing what they think is best for their children, you mighten agree but hey that is why we are all so different and the world would be a boring place if we were all the same! :)

I don't believe parents who circ their children are these nasty horrible parents,far from it, but it is a fact that many parents are circumcising their sons after taking advice that is either outdated, or incorrect.

It is not about making the world a more interesting place. Little baby boys shouldn't have to go through a painful operation that will permantly alter the look of their penis for no reason.

This shouldn't really be about parental choice and that is the problem. I strongly believe that RIC should be banned.

[MamaLlama]

I was once engaged to a man who was circumcised and I pointed out the research about it being unnecessary and reducing sexual sensation etc, the 1% UTI reduction vs 5% complication rate, the RACP statement etc...

He took it all in and became incensed with his parents over it. They'd only done it to look like Daddy. He was adamant that if we had had sons they would NOT be done.

I think circumcised men are the best audience for the anti-circ argument. They know that sexual sensation is worth more than less washing (eww). They can be taught the problems that relying on that rather than condoms brings. They are the ones who can stop this being done to their sons. They may not get on here or shout about it but if the info is spread around enough they will quietly stop circing their sons. I am totally sure of that.

Now I'm married to an uncirc'd man so there's no issue. And I think in tact is prettier. A lot prettier. A lot more, er, options :o

[MamaLlama]

This shouldn't really be about parental choice and that is the problem. I strongly believe that RIC should be banned.

:iagree: And I don't think it is that difficult. There are ton of things in which there's a consensus in the College of Surgeons and you won't find anyone other than a quack to do for you.

Just to think up some hypos - if you adopt a daughter and you have a history of breast cancer but you know her birth family doesn't and you want her to have a double mastectomy for prevention because you think you can get breast cancer from the cornflakes. Trust me, no Dr will do it for you. They just won't. Lots of other things patients have wanted done for their own wacky reasons (and I include false ideas about hygeine in this) they've been told they can't have done to their kids. Heavens there are families who might even want their DDs "circumcised" to "stop them being promiscuous" (don't joke, I know a woman in the US who wanted this for her future daughter!). Trust me no Australian Dr would do it.

This should be like that. If there's no medical reason (and there are a few), circ should be something no registered surgeon will do on a minor. Now if an adult man gets sick of washing and will own up to that to his Dr cool, more power to him :-)

Choice for adults is one thing. Choice for our kids is bigger. And I believe the whole community has a stake in it.

[forbetoel]

You can't even get tonsils taken out without about 12 full on infections, but you need no reason to have your baby sons foreskin removed! I just don't get it, I really don't. :(

[Nowhere]

:iagree: And I don't think it is that difficult. There are ton of things in which there's a consensus in the College of Surgeons and you won't find anyone other than a quack to do for you.

Just to think up some hypos - if you adopt a daughter and you have a history of breast cancer but you know her birth family doesn't and you want her to have a double mastectomy for prevention because you think you can get breast cancer from the cornflakes. Trust me, no Dr will do it for you. They just won't. Lots of other things patients have wanted done for their own wacky reasons (and I include false ideas about hygeine in this) they've been told they can't have done to their kids. Heavens there are families who might even want their DDs "circumcised" to "stop them being promiscuous" (don't joke, I know a woman in the US who wanted this for her future daughter!). Trust me no Australian Dr would do it.

This should be like that. If there's no medical reason (and there are a few), circ should be something no registered surgeon will do on a minor. Now if an adult man gets sick of washing and will own up to that to his Dr cool, more power to him :-)

Choice for adults is one thing. Choice for our kids is bigger. And I believe the whole community has a stake in it.



I agree completely, There is NO other peadiatric surgery done other then RIC that is done purely cause the parent wants it done, circ should be no difernt, Its no difernt to having an elective apendectomy, elective, tonsilectomy or anything like that really, NOTHING else is removed from a baby just incase so why part of there penis

[Milliner]

Well obviously it is still ok to be done because there are medical benefits. If circ was so bad it would be banned and made illegal so the reason why it is still ok to be circ'd is there must be a good reason, it is a prevention from diseases etc. list goes on.

I know a few of my family members have been made to be circ'd because their boy had too many infections, also the forskin grew too tight and got stuck - so why is it ok for them to get circ'd ?

I know a few people who have had their children done from birth to the age of 5 and 12, and they all said none of them even cried or was bothered because the skin done there is painless.




That’s astonishing that you’ve known so many people to have so many issues with their penis. It must be a pretty hot topic in your social/family circle.

[confusd]

i dont think badly of people who do,
its not really any of my buisness if they get it done to their child or not

[Milliner]

See I disagree. I think that the owner of the penis should have a say in whether or not they would like to keep their body intact. I do mind because I see it as a little baby boy having a basic human right taken away from him. :(

Everyone has a right to genital integrity – Male or Female!

[forbetoel]

lol it is, because i have just under 20 nephew/nieces and some are against circ and some are all for it... So i guess it is a hot topic!!!



Do you really have nieces who are circumcised?

[Natsmummy]

I'll be honest, I do judge parents who circ because I think that it is painful and unnecessary.



I know a few people who have had their children done from birth to the age of 5 and 12, and they all said none of them even cried or was bothered because the skin done there is painless.

Sorry, but that's not true. I saw a report on Foreign Correspondent recently where young Indonesian boys were being circumcised (they were around the age of 5 I think) and every one of these kids was screaming in agony. Just like every other part of the human body the skin down there has feeling and sensation.

[MimiGrace]

Why argue?! Let people be!

Because this isn't about the parents, its about the children.

If your parents had removed your ears at birth - to prevent them from getting infected - you wouldn't be entirely pleased, right? nor would it have been entirely legal.

So why is it acceptable to do it to the sex organs?

(oh, and in reference to the post a few pages back - its still legal because several religions claim it is necessary for their religious beliefs. And since we have the right to practice religion in this country, they haven't made it illegal yet. but they will, after all, they made female circumcision illegal, - a completely painless, equally necessary procedure to prevent promiscuity;))

[Milliner]

I'll be honest, I do judge parents who circ because I think that it is painful and unnecessary.



Sorry, but that's not true. I saw a report on Foreign Correspondent recently where young Indonesian boys were being circumcised (they were around the age of 5 I think) and every one of these kids was screaming in agony. Just like every other part of the human body the skin down there has feeling and sensation.

I flicked over to this and was deeply, deeply disturbed by the images. Those poor boys, those screams, the tears. Oh, I shudder just thinking about it.

[forbetoel]

Why argue?

Sorry but that just annoys me.

There are no benefits to RIC, and I find it sad and disturbing that lttle babies are having their penises operated on. RIC is painful and it is needless, it does NOT need to be done.

It is a humans rights issue. A little boys owns the rights to his own body. A foreskin actually has a job to do, it is just not a piece of skin. Full stop. No if's no but's.

[Chunkydunks]

I was around my 2 nephews when they had theirs done. There was definitely pain...every nappy change was agony, holding them front to front couldn't happen because they were too sore in fact holding them in any way that might put a bit of pressure on their penis made them scream. There are millions of nerve ending in the foreskin. Its been proven so there is no way it is a pain free thing.

[MamaLlama]

Well obviously it is still ok to be done because there are medical benefits. If circ was so bad it would be banned and made illegal

I wish you were right, but unfortunately not. Cultural and outdated notions persist. The RACP is pretty darned clear on the fact there are no net medical benefits to RIC. Yet Drs keep doing it because culturally, they can't break community demand and they aren't gutsy enough to stand by the RACP's statement in practice.

Personally I've yet to meet a Dr who sees it as anything other than parental choice - there's no medical reason for RIC. They tend to phrase it as "well the parents believe that crap about having to clean less, what can you do? (except take the fee)" I think its a big indictment on the Drs as much as the parents but I think the Drs are easier to surgically place a backbone in.

And I can't imagine the pp's family discussions. Do they take them out and show them at the dinner table?
:yelclap:

Again. If it wasn't on kids I wouldn't care. What adults do to their bodies is another matter. But I think we all have to take responsibility for the interests of children, all children. Even those with wacky families who are penis-obsessed.

[xkwzit]

A bunch of off topic posts have been deleted. Please keep to the OP for this thread:

do you think badly of parents who do circ bubs
Any more off topic posts and this thread will be closed.

ETA: I've just noticed that this thread has strayed off track before, so it will stay closed now.

Cheers

[Corie]

im not against people who do circ their son's but i do feel sorry for the baby/child going through it.

my husband was circ'd when he was 6 years old and he said all he remembers is so much pain and that he would never wish that on any of our son's and that he doesnt want them done.

if we do ever happen to have a son, he wont be getting circ'd unless he absolutely has to due to severe medical reasons and as a complete last resort.

[forbetoel]

A bunch of off topic posts have been deleted. Please keep to the OP for this thread:

Any more off topic posts and this thread will be closed.

No worries.:o

I guess we are sort of trying to explain why we think it is a bad decision because our veiws are being challenged.

Will try to stay more on track, thanks.:)