should i involove child welfare?

[InSaneOne]

hi i am in need of some advice.

recently my friend went to dh's ex place to pick up the children for me. she wasn't invited in but stood at the door and looked in. she told me later that she was totally disgusted with what she saw. the place was a pigsty - dirty dishes piled everywhere, stuff on the floor and the lounge and just completely grotty.

the kids themselves have express an annoyance with mum not buying them any fruit and when they found some mangos in the backyard the other day and when they asked if they could have 1 she said they were hers for lunch and they couldn't eat any. (she had 5. they only wanted 1). on a couple of occaisions the kids have asked to come and stay with us and now spend nearly every weekend with us. the kids say that the house is always a mess and they have to do most of the housework while mum does nothing except talk on her computer in chat rooms.

when we drop the kids off she rarely comes out to welcome the kids just says hello from the computer. and my dh is never allowed to come in. (he still owns half the house even though she is still paying the morgage). should he be allowed to enter?

i am concerned about the kids health living in that sort of mess. what should i do? should i get child services involved or not? my friend has said that if we go to court she would happily testify about what she saw.

what do you all think?

[shed]

hmm, a dirty house and secondhand information about mangoes don't add up to much unfortunately. You might not get any results. Just keep collecting the information, but so far there's not that much to go on.

[EskimoMumma]

Just keep collecting the information and keep an eye out on them.

social services see the dirty house as everyone has their own standards on living so nothing there unofrtnuatly..

[*Chels*]

Look,Belinda is obviously concerened,and i think it goes further than a dirty house and mangoes!!!and youve just brushed her off!!
Belinda:
If you are worried,do something about it.A dirty house is unhygienic,and its not good for the kids to not eat properly.And shes obviously neglecting the kids in favour of the computer.
Like the others said,keep a note of things happening and maybe have a word with the ex if you are on good terms.If you are concerened,please do something about it
best of luck with it all:fingerscrossed:

[browniebear]

I did reply to this post, but it seems to have gone missing and I don't think I 'brushed her off' I did say was it possible for the children to live permanently with them, without actually involving DOCS first, because they are usually so overworked (unfortunately). Unless the children are being abusing there is not much they could probably do, other than tell her to clean up her house.

I do think this is serious and it is obviously causing Belinda a great deal of worry about these poor little kids.

[sweety]

i am by no means trying to dismiss this post. if u are generally worried about the kids do what u have to do
but with that being said... i grew up in a messy household. housekeeping just wasnt (still isnt) my mums forte (sp?)
but she was the best mum a girl could wish for! we were shown so much love and support, had so much fun, were always fed and washed and provided with whatever we needed with some lil extra surprises here and there... i couldnt have wished for a better childhood!!
as for the mangoes or whatever, kids sometimes say silly things. if they had said "mum hits us" that would be a totally different story. but "mum wouldnt let us eat the mangoes"...?? is that really a reason to get child welfare involved? when there are poor children out there being beat with belts or being made to sleep outside IMO mangoes are really not that serious...
also spending too much time on the comp has always seemed like a form of escapism to me, maybe shes got depression or shes lonely in which case calling welfare would be the last thing the poor woman needs.
maybe she just needs a friend or a mentor instead

[Bessie]

i am by no means trying to dismiss this post. if u are generally worried about the kids do what u have to do
but with that being said... i grew up in a messy household. housekeeping just wasnt (still isnt) my mums forte (sp?)
but she was the best mum a girl could wish for! we were shown so much love and support, had so much fun, were always fed and washed and provided with whatever we needed with some lil extra surprises here and there... i couldnt have wished for a better childhood!!
as for the mangoes or whatever, kids sometimes say silly things. if they had said "mum hits us" that would be a totally different story. but "mum wouldnt let us eat the mangoes"...?? is that really a reason to get child welfare involved? when there are poor children out there being beat with belts or being made to sleep outside IMO mangoes are really not that serious...
also spending too much time on the comp has always seemed like a form of escapism to me, maybe shes got depression or shes lonely in which case calling welfare would be the last thing the poor woman needs.
maybe she just needs a friend or a mentor instead

Thats what I was thinking... maybe wait a while and see, if she is depressed then child welfare could really upset the balance. Everyone has hard times sometimes.
BTW If someone saw my house right now and the amount of time I am online they might think the same, but my reason is I've been told not to do too much!!

[Tam-I-Am]

When I read this, I actually wondered if there wasn't something wrong with the mangos that she didn't want them to eat, and therefore took the path of least resistance and told a white lie. I don't know that this is the case, but my house is far from tidy (or clean - some days!) , and I don't always let DD have everything she wants.

I think your concerns are valid (of course!), but perhaps it might be a better path to take if you actually had a chat with DH's ex, or send him to do it, about how the kids are going, how is she going, does she need help with anything to do with the kids - I guarantee this will be better received than calling child protection!

[shed]

Nobody brushed her off. We simply were saying that the system is likely to.

Which it is.

Its not that we don't sympathise but she was asking for advice, not pointless platitudes.

[jessgray]

im not sure about other states but in vic DHS do look at dirty homes and take that into consideration when assessing families for child protective orders. i know this as i was once on an order from age 10-18.

the MCHN hotline or lifeline could tell you where she could go to get some form of support. maybe she needs some respite or she does have depression. who knows but she does need some help :)

[Fairyfloss]

I say, you have the right to be concerned, but if you don't have evidence it might backfire, so wait a bit more and collect as much info as you can, good luck

[ForeverMine]

Im studing child protection at the moment, and the (one of) the best things you can do at the moment is document everything you see, hear etc and make no opinions for yourself in this diary, just all facts so if eventually it went to court, there is no way it could be dismissed as it is all fact (from your side). Talk to the children and see and get their opinion with what's going on and if you concern does continue i think you should ring the Department of Child Safety (depending on your state, im up in QLD). A child safety officer may come to investigate and if she is suffering from depression or anything will be able to arrange help for her. Classes on parenting are also available which offer everything from budgeting to housework etc....

I don't know how much that will help, as thats what I learnt, doesn't mean thats how it goes...

Good luck with everything

Christie

[mum33]

have you confronted the mother about it? do that before you contact docs. my mother works for docs and by the sound of it there is not much there to investigate. they would just visit, inspect the place and that would be the end of it,t hen unfortunately she would have her name on their computer system which isnt a good thing.

[angel_one]

just a ?, is your hubby concerned?, is there a reason y he doesnt have custody of the kids - as you guys are prob in more of a stable family situation then this woman ( who suposedly spends all day on the computer chating) i cant see why you coulsnt have custody of them if dh is really concerned about his kids well being!

[InSaneOne]

angel_one

yes we are both concerned but as our last experience with legal aid was a complete disaster and we are unable to afford our own laywer we can't take her to court for custody of the children. however we had a long chat with our middle daughter Natasha and she is going to come and stay with us for a week and then hopefully permaently - she just wants to stay for a few days then build up to longer so she doesn't hurt her mum's feelings (her idea). we do have consent orders from several years ago that say when the children turn 13 they can choose where to live. the eldest is nearly 14 now but she is being bribed by her mother emotionally into staying with her. the middle one still 12 at the moment (will be 13 in a few days) was bribed to not come and stay with us (but it hasn't worked yet) by her mum buying her a mobile phone. you tell me who in their right mind would give a 12 year old a mobile phone. she is way to young and irresposible to have a phone. she started with a $20. card and went through that in a weekend. then her mum turns around and buys her more credit. :no:

the main reason is that she has top notch legal help and we only can get legal aid who is completely biased towards sigle mums and was no help at all during the last court date. we are trying to save up at the moment to afford a laywer in ipswich who has a history of helping fathers get custody of their kids.

my dh actually looked in the front door last monday when we dropped the kids off after taking the girls to their meeting. he said it was basolutely disgusting. he could see the lounge room and kitchen were both littered with dirty plates and cups and there were clothes all over the floors and lounges and it smelled off. (like rotten food) he also descibed it as it looked like a tornado had swept through the place. the kids always smell and are dirty when they come to us on friday afternoon. even after we ask and they say they have had a shower after school and the clothes always look dirty and are smelly.

i once asked the adam (he would have been 9 at the time) when he last brushed his teeth. his reply was when we were last here. i nearly died as it had been 3 weeks since we had seen them.:mad: he also has been known to wear the same pair of unwashed socks for a whole week. (without them being washed) now i know he has more than 1 pair of socks. we have even brought him some to keep here and at his mums.


i am sicked at the thought of these children being brought up like this. we might not have had much growing up but we were always clean and fed and our clothes were clean and relatively good condition - even if they were second hand or homemade.


sorry about the long rant. i am just so fed up about not being able to do anything about it. and i can't help but think those poor kids. i just don't know what else to do :banghead: :banghead:

[pegasus]

Hi Belinda

Just letting you know that I'm thinking of you...We've been through (and still are) a lot of the stuff you are talking about. (you can check out my thread on looking after older kids).

We too get frustrated with the values system that my stepkids are brought up in - (ie if something breaks you just get a new one - whether that's a mobile phone, xbox or whatever). My step daughter just got her third mobile - she's thirteen - she's always running out of credit, but it always gets replenished when mum's been paid.

The kids always have holes in their clothes and their clothes always smell stale (and of cigarette smoke).

We do what we can, but we get very frustrated with the fact that it always gets flung back in our face when the mother feels like it and we don't end up with access the next weekend (like last week and this week!)

[angel_one]

belinda,
i'd say your next best bet would be to infact call child services, if the house is indeed as bad as dh says, it sounds horrid, hell my house 80% of the time is messy, but my kids get bathed daily, teeth brushed atleast once a day, and heck they only smell when they done a ****! and their only 3 and 5mths, so they have an excuse.
the messy house is one thing, but the kids obviously aren't being properly cared for - even if they are 12 years old, you still got to make sure they are bathing, and brushing- regularly.
what about general health care - is their mother taking them to see a doctor if they get sick, do they actually get a real meal at least once a day - like meat and veggies?
- sorry im starting to rave on, but i cant see how any mother particulary, can be like this to her very own children.
it sounds to me like she's only keeping the kids to spite your dh, and possibly for the childsupport and centerlink money?
ok think im gonna go now......:mad:

[ellie_star]

Hi,
I think you should definetly call child welfare. Even if they do dismiss your concerns at least you have done the right thing by informing them.. It is so hard to know when there is something wrong or if it's just minor things such as mess.
Child abuse/neglect is often very hard to detect.. it is so easy for a parent to hide. sometimes kids in terrible circumstances only give small hints to caring adults and too often they are brushed aside.
If an adult see's anything wrong in a child's life it is up to them to intervene - the kids can't do it themselves!!
No harm can come of making a report. And if it was just a messy house then the mother may be prompted to clean up a bit!
Child services will do a proper assesment and everything is taken into consideration in court.
I would have a talk to the children and to the mother if possible and then if you are at all concerned call your local child welfare office and have a chat. It can be completly anomonous, they don't give information about who made the report - to avoid conflict.
Good luck!

[Jack-star]

Hi

I work for CP (VIC) but am currently on MatLve. My job was to take the calls (notifications) from comcerned poeple in teh community, and would often get calls re dirty houses, and smelly children.

What we would ask the caller is what proof they had: had they seen it themsleves, how often, when was the last time, had they spoken to the children etc. We work by the Children and Young Persosn Act (1989), and are mandated by it.

If a child is at risk of "significant harm", then we can intervene. Unfortunately, even first hand info of a dirty house is not enough. If the family has a history with CP, particularly if all the prior notifications have been for similar things, then we may look at it more closely, but it is not guaranteed that more action will be taken.

This woman may already been investigated by CP, but you don't know about it, as, if the children are as dirty and smelly as is reported, their school teachers would have noticed. School teachers are mandated to report cases of suspected abuse, where they believe on reasonable grounds that a child is in need of protection.

Belinda, if you are concerned about ther health, take them to a doctor, and dentist (when they come to see you) as then there would be a record of the current state of the childrens health.

The other thing we would take in to consideration is the childrens age. Being teenagers (or nearly teenagers) at least they are (to some extent) able to look after themselves and provide for some of their own needs.

If this scenario was put to me, and I was told that the children were babies/toddlers, this would raise alarm bells more so, as if the mother does as reported and sits at her computer all day, then the children would be left to fend for themsleves, which, if they were baies/toddlers, is a form of neglect, and very dangerous for the babies.

I would also see if you can link the children in to their school counsellor/welfare worker if you think (or they express) they need to talk to soneone about life at home with mum.

Has your DH tried to talk to his ex, and at least express the concerns that the children are reporting?

I would just keep monitoring the situation, and recording pieces of information that you believe are important.

Don't get me wrong, if you want to call CP, please do so, but just be aware, that if you are providing the info, as second, third hand, it may not go anywhere.

[jason lovett]

i would be worried about her sitting at the computer all day...ask her if the kids can spend more time with you?
if not then maybe get your video out and ask a couple of ??? to the kids what they get up to at her place and if they say she doesnt do anything with us because she sits at the computer allday then thats a brownie point for negligence.
kids need stimulating anything is worht a try if she says they stay their your kids are your concern.give then the video recorder for the day to take to her house and maybe you might get enough evidence to say

[mythreelittlemonkeys]

hi
so empathise with you :hugs: - and totally understand what you going through...we have similar (but maybe quite not so bad) situation with my DH's children ie the filthy house, neglect of care, smoking, and in our case money for the children being spent on her and her partners habits...the toothbrush thing made me smile and want to cry at same time as we had the same conversation with my DSD but the gap between us seeing her had been over a month...we are taking the kids to the doctor and dentist next time they come...for the reasons given in previous posts...DSS is 4 and his teeth are rotting but on a diet of no veggies, sweets, biscuits, takeaways and the dreaded green cordial what cna be expected? I hate hte fact I want to vomit when we pick them up they smell so bad...and they are always dirty and my DSS rarely has baths...they think we weird cos we get them to have a bath each night and wash their hands after loo and before meals...anyway...here in WA/Perth we have felt like you very unsupported by the authorities...we are not eligible for Legal AId...but cannot even begin to afford a lawyer...and the court process would cripple us/be impossible to do...and so we have to just put up with it...there doesnt seem to be a welfare department/social services department here...you have to call the police?? which we feel is a bit drastic...
I just wanted you to know that there are others out here who rerally understand how you feel and how hard it is even to be thinking of involving any department...sometimes it really makes no sense at all the notion that just because a person is the natural mother of the children she would never hurt them/be the best person for them...because from reading your post and knowing our situation that just isnt the case... :( but sadly I think there are too many households like this whether single parents or not in our society and it is something that noone really wants to take responsibility for... and wheras I dont want a nanny state when it is happening to people you love you just wish more could be done...

[Tony Ryan]

If the kids are sick, the home may be too dirty; if they are not, it is not. Gotta be careful about imposing our own arbitrary values here.

[pestiferous]

When I read this, I actually wondered if there wasn't something wrong with the mangos that she didn't want them to eat, and therefore took the path of least resistance and told a white lie. !

I was thinking something along the same lines, I cant say i'd ever let my kids eat something they found in the backyard.

If it were my partners kid's, I would have the father 'casually' enter the house to SEE for himself. nd hand information never comes out exactly as it should nor do stories from children.

If anyone knows the woman well enough to know if there actually is a problem it will be the father. If he see's there is cause for concern, He can offer some help, If she refuses and the children are actually being neglected, then he should file for full custody.

I think Community services is probably too overwhelmed with serious neglect and abuse to be burdened with a messy house.


Edit: i just read through the rest of the thread, I didnt realise they were teens.

Teens complaining about having to do housework is not really surprising, nor is the idea of teenages thinking the grass is greener at dads place. Maybe you could consider the possibility of some (quite normal) 'playing one against the other' from the kids?

Personally i'd be more worried if she DIDNT make then help around the house.

As for a 12 year old being given a mobile phone?

In this day and age, as a safety measure, yes i'd let mine have one. I would also, (to ensure they understand the value of money and can be responsible for their own actions) make them EARN a top up card if they went over the provided limit.

Also, you mention she has access to expensive legal representation? I'd wager a guess that if she IS chatting online all day as has been accused, she probably couldnt afford a decent barrister to represent her.

[malinda84]

Well i am a foster carer so i deal with alot of kids with this problem and other problems, The government do the best they can but at the momnet in victoria there are so many kids needed a foster place its not funny. our agency at the moment needs every foster home to have 7 kids but this is not possible to all homes. We have 4 (+ 2 of our own and my nephew) and would gladly take on more but we have to get beds and all the things kids need ( like clothes, FOOD, cupboard space, etc). So if you think there in great danger then talk with her and tell her how you feel and if she needs help then maybe offer to do the kids loundry or your partner mow the lawn. She may just be having a hard time, then again i see so many kids come back after a short time. I think the government is doing a great job helping us all out but then they are also attracting so many people to the money side of having kids.

Sorry to drag on a bit,

I foster the teens usually, and alot of them like not having to do everything and when they see they are better of being like you and me then they turn away. This can take time. If you can't get legal aid maybe go to your local family court and talk to one of the court lawyers ( can't remember what they are called). hope it all works out. :fingerscrossed:

[InSaneOne]

thanks for all your help guys. the children are looking at staying with us as soon as the school year is finished. it would be too hard on them to change schools midyear as the school they are currently attending has a different subject structure than the one nearer to us.