advice required

[Nickster]

One week of controlled crying has not worked for us, with the result being that my baby girl (Elizabeth - 6 months old) will scream for an hour (attended) before falling asleep, and obviously it is more than my husband or I can bear anymore. I have been rocking/breastfeeding/patting her to sleep all these months, and this doesn't seem to be working anymore, which is the only reason we decided to try cc, otherwise I'd be happy to rock her to sleep until she is 18!!!
I just read "the no-cry sleep solution" by Elizabeth Pantley, and was wondering if any of the mums (or dads) out there have used her methods, particularly the "help baby to fall back to sleep in her crib" section? If so, has it worked for you? Or am I on the wrong track and should I just persevere with the rocking/BF/patting?
I'd appreciate any feedback. Thank You.

[MamaRabbit]

Hi, I recently saw an episode of the Baby Whisperer on Fox (and then found her book in Borders), she uses the PUPD method (Pick Up Put Down). When bub cries you pick her up but as soon as she stops you must put her back down in the crib even if she starts crying on the way down. Leave her for a moment (as long as you can bare) and repeat the process, agan making sure to put her down when she stops crying. The idea is to let her know that you are there, but not have her rely on you rocking her to sleep. This might take up to an hour the first time and then decreases the more you do it. My little one had terrible problems sleeping but seemed to respond to the various settling techniques so I don't often need to do anything but I did try this PUPD method a couple of weeks ago when he wouldn't respond to the "sshh and patting" and he went down after 10-15 minutes. Anything is worth a try!

Cheers,
Elle (mum to Charlie)

[Chickadee]

I haven't read either of the books mentioned, sorry. I don't even know if the "method" I used is a proper method. It was based on the following key beliefs:

Bub goes to bed sleepy but awake. Timing is crucial, too tired and it's a nightmare.
Crying is not bad, it releases energy and mostly they're crying because they're tired and need to sleep.
Crying usually is in cycles of a few minutes, winding up to a peak and then back down. When bub's crying is on the way up not much is going to work to calm them. Once bub's cry has peaked they're more receptive to being "helped" to sleep.
Grizzling can be ignored.
All talk to bub at bedtime must be in a firm confident voice. As the woman who taught me said "you're not pleading with bub to go to sleep, you're telling them."

The actual method is:
Get bub prepared for bed, using a routine of your choice. This might include changing into pyjamas, wrapping, giving a cot/comfort toy, dummy, routine phrases you say, etc.
Put bub into bed awake. Start patting her bottom fairly firmly. I used a fairly quick double pat rhythm initially and then would slow it down to a single pat, slowing the single pat gradually as bub settled.
Hold bub fairly firmly at the shoulder if you have to, to keep her fairly quiet during the patting.
Start the "drone". This is sort of a "naaah naaah" drone you make at her, it's been described to me as a creaky door. Some bubs pick it up and repeat it, and eventually sing it to themselves as they settle.
If bub really throws a fit and winds up to a hysterical cry, or just one that's too much for YOU to stand, feel free to pick her up and comfort her. Keep tone of voice confident as above. Once the cry has peaked and she starts to calm, put her back into the cot and resume the patting & drone.
If you can, try to stop the patting before bub is fully asleep, maybe once they're down to just a grizzle instead of a real cry. Either leave the room or stay in but away from the cot.

If bub winds back up to a distressed cry after you've left, it's up to you whether you want to intervene. I did a pseudo-CC I suppose, the first few night's I'd only let her cry a few minutes before going in. After a week or so I'd be waiting longer. By three or 4 weeks I was distinguishing between a cry and a "hysterical" cry after I'd left the room. A regular cry would peak and go back down to a grizzle within a minute or two of starting, and I wouldn't go in. A hysterical cry was out of control and needed me. Total result for me was about a month to 6 weeks, but I really pushed at it since she was going into daycare and I couldn't rely on her carer being able to stand and pat her for an hour.

There are a lot of variations on methods out there. The only one that's good is the one that works for you and bub. Good luck!

[draught]

I agree with Martha that there is no right way of doing this - you do what works for your baby. I too was rocking my baby to sleep in my arms, then when she was getting too heavy, starting breastfeeding her to sleep. Then she was waking 3 - 5 times a night, so I started working on ways to teach her to sleep. We took a two stage approach. The first was to teach her to sleep without the breast and that involved replacing it with patting. I would pat her in the same way as Martha has described for 2 minutes, then leave her for 2 minutes, pat for 3, leave for 3 and so on. She always fell asleep during a patting session. Then I had to teach her to sleep without the patting, so we did cc and when I went in to her I would pat for a few seconds, which would calm her down. I suppose what I am saying is that you can take what you want from the different methods and work out what works for you. I haven't read the book you are talking about but did read "How to solve your child's sleep problems" by Richard Ferber and found it very useful.

[Tannie]

I use the Baby Whisperer techniques.......have the book and it's been a godsend!! Of course, we still have good and worser days / nights - but mostly at nearly 16 weeks bubs is in a bit of good routine and can settle herself........I've also heard that the No Cry Sleep solutions is good - whichever book you can get first!! :p
BabyWhisperer also has a website you can access with a forum like this one
http://www.thebabywhisperer.com/forums/
good luck,
T

[Tea Lady]

Hi there,

I don't know if my ideas are much use, but I'll bore you with them anyway.

Basically when I first started to get my bub to go to sleep in the cot rather than in my arms my aim was just to keep her from crying while she was lying there - I sang her name over and over and stroked her head etc etc. So long as she didn't get worked up, she would fall asleep reasonably soon (usually less than 20 mins) but I sat there the whole time with her. Now that she's more used to it, we still have kind of the same philosophy for her night sleep (she usually resists that one the most) and she likes playing with my husbands fingers and looking at them until she gets sleepy. During the day, I put the dummy in and wrap her and give her some fabric (usually my pj shirt) to put over her face (she likes it even though it looks like she's suffocating!) and then only go back if she gets upset - grizzling is ok unless it continues for ages and is getting nowhere.

I thought the no cry sleep solution was helpful, but didn't exactly follow the method - my advice though is NOT to read the quote somewhere in the intro where she's talking about how her husband shared her philosophy and it has this awful paragraph about how it must feel for a baby to be left to cry. I'm sure they probably don't feel like that really, but I can't get it out of my head now and it gives me unnecessary grief when I have to let her cry for any reason.

Hope whatever you're using is working!

Lucy

[Malin]

Hi !

Sorry I haven't read that book, but I can understand what you are going though.

It's the nicest thing when you breastfeed or rock your baby to sleep.
It does get a little tricky when they start to fight to go to sleep.
We do co sleep and once a sleep he stays asleep.

If you are into more a relaxed way to get your baby to sleep it might be worth buying a sling/baby bjorn.
It's a great way to get things done in the house when a child needs to be close to you.

I have in the past breastfeed Erik to sleep, let him lay on my tummy all night when he was a very little. Vacumed the floor until my son fell asleep, sometime because the floor way really dirty some times not.

Sometimes dancing, walking, singing while he was in the sling/babybjorn.


We were a bit worried once our son grew out his baby bjorn who on earth are we going to get him to sleep now, but then we bought the sling.

Other later stages we have driven our son to sleep in the car.

These days he is 3 years old now, sometimes we read stories to him to get to sleep, sometimes I let him watch a little bit of telly.
The main thing is he is happy to go to sleep.

We are not super strict on rutin in our house but that is the way we want it.

The main thing is now for you to find a way for what is going to suit you.
The hardes thing is when you try things and your heart tells you this is not right..
Good luck and to me "a baby really knows best!!!"

Take Care Malin

[Nickster]

Thank you everybody for your advice so far. To sum up, in short:
- we stopped using cc, but if she shows signs of tiredness yet won't go to sleep, we found leaving her to cry for no more than 3 minutes seems to give her the message that it's time to sleep, and she's then more than happy to have a brief rock before I put her back in her cot to sleep.
- I am continuing to use NCSS methods outlined in the book, and we are currently at phase one, where I rock her until almost asleep, lay her in her crib with my hands still under her, and then remove them when she is fully asleep. You then pick up the baby if she starts to cry or seems distressed (much like the PUPD method described by Elle). This seems to be working.
- I found a great website (American) called She Knows that has forums dealing with Elizabeth Pantley's NCSS, and Pantley herself has a good website with many links.
- Thanks Tannie for the Baby Whisperer link, I had a look, but I need to read the book too, which I fully intend to do. There are lots of useful tips to be gleaned from visiting the forums, but I am not a big one for the strict routines she seems to advocate.
- Malin, your method of getting bub to go to sleep in the sling sounds beautiful. I used to do that when Elizabeth was younger. Unfortunately she now weighs 10kg, and has outgrown our Tomy Safari, and I think she might break a sling, or it might break me to carry her about in one!!!
- Lu Wa, I know what you mean about that paragraph!! It broke my heart to read it. Bub likes to pull her covers up over her face too!! Aren't they funny little darlings sometimes??!!
- Draught, at what stage did you stop feeding your baby at night? Elizabeth is 6 months and she still gets a midnight feed.
- Martha M, thanks, I was doing the patting method you described almost exactly. She won't take it anymore, and throws herself back over, she's very strong-willed, and physically strong. We have always had the bedtime routine you described, so she knows it's leading to sleep, the only trouble was that she wouldn't follow through with her end of the deal and actually sleep!!
SO, once again, thanks everyone, we are still a work in progress but I am grateful for your input.
Nicole and family. :)

[draught]

Nicole
Stopped the midnght feed two weeks ago at 7 1/2 months - although as you will see from the time tonight, I am up with a crying baby and very tempted to pop her on again........very tired!

[mimi]

Hi everyone

Don't know if this will be of help to anyone here but will offer it anyway :) - I have just given the same info over at the CC section as well.

ACER - The Australian Council for Educational Research - has a booklet called 'Sleep for Baby and Family' which can be purchased for only about $15.00 [including postage and handling]. You can see a brief overview and can purchase it at:-
http://www.acer.edu.au/scripts/Product.php3?parent_id=111&category_id=111&family_code=1018BK

It is written by three professionals and does have a section on tackling sleep problems with a 'kind-of' controlled comforting/crying method - I am NO fan of CC!! as you might notice from my other posts!. However, this is very much 'what works for you' - and offers the idea that when babies cry with distress, the only adequate response is for a parent to be there - and when the crying or fussing is minimal, i.e. NOT distressed, it is OK to leave them to settle alone and just listen carefully for the baby's cues. The authors stress that if it is necessary for you to modify the 'program' in some way, this is not failure, but changing direction. They also say to 'do what you feel is necessary to settle him to sleep' when you go to comfort.

The booklet also covers things like ages and stages and what may be causing night waking at certain times.

Despite my dislike of CC generally[!], I think this is a fairly 'sensible' book, in that it doesn't expect 'one size fits all' and offers understanding that it is up to the parent and child to work out the process between themselves, as to what works best for them... and it may be of help to someone out there!!?

[camille5048]

this is what i use on my 2.5 mth old.... it works like a charm!!!

feed as wanted every 3 to 4 hours until 5.30pm
5 - 5.30 pm: bottle, bath , bed


WAKE FOR 9.30 FEED, this is the big one! you must wake them for a top up. they will eventually do it on there own. any crying in between times was fixed by putting in the pram 2 sleep ... this is letting them know that yes they are upset but it is not playtime. the rocking works well.

dont rock them to sleep in ur arms... this makes it harder to keep them asleep whem there put down.

i also leave my son in his pram 2 sleep if he has been really cranky... gL!

I HAVE A SLEEP PROGRAM FOR UR CHILDS AGE GROUP IF U WOULD LIKE IT

:D