Just wondering???

[Kaitlins Mum]

Ok please do not see this as an attack, I'm genuinely interested in everyone's answers! :)

I was just wondering why so many people on the forum are anti-circumcision? Obviously, none of your children are circumcised, so why does it bother you so much that other people choose this for their children?


OH, and just for the record, I have a daughter and a bub on the way. If this bub is a boy we will not be circumcising, for the one reason that DH is not done and he sees no reason for it. BUT, having said that, that is his decision and I'm not for it nor against it, I see it as a decision each parent makes for their child, like birthing choices, immunisations etc.

So yeah, back to my original question - why does it bother you so much if other people choose this for their own children?

Thanks for all replies - any and all are welcome, but please keep it nice! :)

[Hollywood]

I am anti-circumcision, simply because I don't think it's necessary unless there's a medical need for it or my son's life is in danger from leaving his foreskin in tact.

I don't actually believe that many (if any) parents on here judge others for choosing to circumcise, I think that the pro-circers and the anti-circers are just passionate about their reasons for their choice.

If someone chooses to view other's opinions as personal attacks on their choices then that's kind of their problem really. I've personally never seen any evidence of parents berating other people's choices.

[J&C0508]

I don't actually believe that many (if any) parents on here judge others for choosing to circumcise, I think that the pro-circers and the anti-circers are just passionate about their reasons for their choice.
I dont think that many deliberately go out their way to judge, maybe some- i dont know, but it can certainly come across that way.

I've personally never seen any evidence of parents berating other people's choices.
I have... and also been on the receiving end, which doesnt make you feel good...

[MummaBear03]

I guess it's the same as any other thing. I have a girl and if I had a boy then the boy would be intact. I don't think any part of the body should be removed at all. Ears get infected sometimes too but we don't cut them off do we? And if anyone did to prevent ear infections they would go to jail for it and there would be a huge public outcry if it was made legal to do so.

[our little treasures]

I think that it wouldn't be there if it wasn't suppose to be:)

If I was to be honest I find it very disturbing that parents would want to inflict such pain and experience on their child. To me it's unkind. You asked why and thats it!!

[PaperTiger]

I was just wondering why so many people on the forum are anti-circumcision? Obviously, none of your children are circumcised, so why does it bother you so much that other people choose this for their children?







If I was to be honest I find it very disturbing that parents would want to inflict such pain and experience on their child. To me it's unkind. You asked why and thats it!!


I am of the exact same opinion, I find it highly disturbing also.

[Myztiks#1Fan]

i am not for or against circ but i have never really heard anyone talking about it until i came onto bubhub and its only recently i have been reading posts from the anti and the pro side. even when i was pregnant nobody even asked that question if i would be getting my child done if i had a boy. i am sure people have valid reasons for having their child/ren done or if they dont have their child/ren done. cooper is not done however if he ever does wish to get done, he is more than welcome to. circ was nothing i ever really thought about TBH and i guess i still dont really have that much of an idea whether i would or wouldnt get my child done. so all in all i dont really have that much of an opinion on it and if people want to get their child/ren done well so be and if people dont well so be it

[twotrunks]

For me it is about caring about children in general... just because it is not my child doesn't mean i shouldn't be concerned with it's welfare. I, too, am anti-cicumcision because I believe circumcision to be a violation of the child's rights, and therefore feel it should not be permitted unless medically necessary.
I assume that we all judge parents who beat or otherwise violate the rights of their children, although we may have empathy for the circumstances which caused that behaviour... in the same way, I judge people who circumcise their sons without a medical issue, although I understand that they may have been given misinformation which caused them to make this decision. More than anything, I fell sorry for their sons.
TT

[Beany]

Because I believe every child has a right to their own body and has the right to keep they bodily integrity. I believe it causes undue and unnecessary pain on a vulnerable being for no good reason. I believe children shouldn't have undue pain and stress.

Why we care is the same reason you (probably) care about a parent belting their child across the face: we empathise.

[chicky2lala]

I guess it's the same as any other thing. I have a girl and if I had a boy then the boy would be intact. I don't think any part of the body should be removed at all. Ears get infected sometimes too but we don't cut them off do we? And if anyone did to prevent ear infections they would go to jail for it and there would be a huge public outcry if it was made legal to do so.
Cant believe im doing it but...........:yelclap::yelclap::yelclap:

[Kaitlins Mum]

Ok sorry I haven't been on since I posted the OP, so I'll try and respond to everyone! Sorry if I miss you...


I don't actually believe that many (if any) parents on here judge others for choosing to circumcise, I think that the pro-circers and the anti-circers are just passionate about their reasons for their choice.

If someone chooses to view other's opinions as personal attacks on their choices then that's kind of their problem really. I've personally never seen any evidence of parents berating other people's choices.

Oooh, I have!!!! Sorry but this whole "anti-circ" section is really only for that one purpose. No attacks intended, but it's the same as an anti-caesarian, anti-ear piercing or anti-anything section, the sole purpose of that section is to undermaine any parent/carer who decides on that particular course of action for their child.


Ears get infected sometimes too but we don't cut them off do we? And if anyone did to prevent ear infections they would go to jail for it and there would be a huge public outcry if it was made legal to do so.

Well, yes, you're right here. Anyone stupid enough to cut of a child's ear to prevent infection is worthy of jail time. But that's because removing the ear doesn't prevent any infections, but removing foreskin could prevent future infections.



For me it is about caring about children in general... just because it is not my child doesn't mean i shouldn't be concerned with it's welfare.

Totally agree - you should be concerned for ANY child you think is being abused or neglected etc. So does this mean you're also in the anti-ear piercing section, the anti-immunisation section etc? Because they also hurt the child....

Sorry I just re-read eevrything I have written and I sound very pro-circumcision, please note this was not my intention to come across this way, I really am just wondering why so many of you are so passionate about something that doesn't concern you? Sorry if that sounds harsh, again, NOT my intention. :) Truth is, if it was as bad as some people make it out to be, it would be illegal. But it's a medical precedure, done the most pain-free way for the child (to my understanding).

Yes, I take a passionate stand on people abusing/neglecting their children, but in my opinion a medical procedure is not a form of abuse, if done correctly by a trained professional.

Don't you agree? :)

[MummaBear03]

Cant believe im doing it but...........:yelclap::yelclap::yelclap:

:confused: We agree on something? :eek:

I had another thought. Pro-anything means that you believe ALL should be doing it that way unless something gets in the way of that. For instance, being pro-breastfeeding means that I believe ALL babies should have access to breastmilk except in the case where breastmilk can cause more harm than good. So how can someone be PRO circing unless they believe ALL babies should be done?

[twotrunks]

Well, yes, you're right here. Anyone stupid enough to cut of a child's ear to prevent infection is worthy of jail time. But that's because removing the ear doesn't prevent any infections, but removing foreskin could prevent future infections.


How about other examples then? We could remove all apendixes and tonsils from babies, as that could prevent future infections, and those parts of the body aren't "needed".... or in the case of my family, with a genetic link to breast cancer, we could remove breasts as soon as they develop, in order to prevent possible death down the track.
OR we could take care of our bodies, and those of our children, be proactive about our health, and deal with infections or cancers as they arrive... if they ever do! I know which one I'd prefer!


Yes, I take a passionate stand on people abusing/neglecting their children, but in my opinion a medical procedure is not a form of abuse, if done correctly by a trained professional.

Don't you agree? :)

So as long as it is done by a "trained professional" it cannot be abuse?? My goodness, I certainly do not agree.

[chicky2lala]

How about other examples then? We could remove all apendixes and tonsils from babies, as that could prevent future infections, and those parts of the body aren't "needed".... or in the case of my family, with a genetic link to breast cancer, we could remove breasts as soon as they develop, in order to prevent possible death down the track.
OR we could take care of our bodies, and those of our children, be proactive about our health, and deal with infections or cancers as they arrive... if they ever do! I know which one I'd prefer!



So as long as it is done by a "trained professional" it cannot be abuse?? My goodness, I certainly do not agree.
:yelclap::yelclap:

[Kaitlins Mum]

I wasn't saying anything done by a trained professional can't be abuse, God knows there's a few dodgy doctors out there, but the fact that it's a routine medical procedure has to have some merit, right?

[Beany]

Not really. It being routine means nothing. Id it were routine practice to remove a part of the female sexual organ, that wouldn't change the abhorrent nature of it.

[Mathermy]

Oooh, I have!!!! Sorry but this whole "anti-circ" section is really only for that one purpose. No attacks intended, but it's the same as an anti-caesarian, anti-ear piercing or anti-anything section, the sole purpose of that section is to undermaine any parent/carer who decides on that particular course of action for their child.



I think you will probably find that the forum admin & mods would strongly disagree that that is the purpose of those sections, as would many members-though I can probably understand why it looks that way at times.

[MummaBear03]

I wasn't saying anything done by a trained professional can't be abuse, God knows there's a few dodgy doctors out there, but the fact that it's a routine medical procedure has to have some merit, right?

Probably the sadest part of the whole thing is that it's considered a "routine medical procedure" and I'm sure that if they started to remove tonsils just in case they became infected, that could possibly have become a "routine medical procedure" too but it doesn't make it right.

[diesal444]

Hi :)

Circumcision bothers me on soooooo many levels and I dont even have a son.
To me it is such an outdated procedure.
Religious reasons simply do not cut it with me at all. As one Muslim lady tells me in her defence to doing this to her son is " We are put on this earth to be tested "...Tested when your days old???? :mad:

The other reason of " so he looks like his dad " , now that really makes me mad. Coz I have never EVER seen my brother and my dad comparing their penis'...have you??
And I am pretty certain if dad had one arm no mother would proceed to chop off their son's arm " so he looks like dad ".
Other friends have said " coz it looks better " ... to who?????
The real issue I have with this is that the foreskin is an important piece of skin protecting the glands of the penis and we shouldnt just " cut it off " just for the sake of it. Even DP being circ or non circ, I am my sons mother and I am his protector, and unless there is a medical need for it to be done, same as apendix/tonsils etc there is no need whatsoever for me to cause him unecessary pain.

[Myztiks#1Fan]

as i said earlier i am neither for or against circumcision but everyone is different. if a mother wishes to get her child circumcised well that is her choice just as it is the same for a mother not to choose to get it done. i can see from both sides of the fence why people choose to do it or not. some do it for religion or hygiene etc while others refuse to do it as its they think its flat out torture. everyone is different and we all parent in different ways.

if i did choose to get cooper done, i would of done it when he was a newborn instead of him being the age of 1 however i would of done my research first as i dont really know much about it all. i have pretty much learnt what i know from reading the posts in the pro and anti section.

i must come off sounding really nasty but i dont really see why people get so worked up whether people want their child circumcised or not. does it really matter all that much? if you dont want your child done, well dont do it. its as simple as that. if you get your child circ who cares what people think. you are doing what you think is best for your child.

i think i will leave it at that now

[xkwzit]

I want to remind ppl of the guidelines for language (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=120819) used when posting in any of the circ sections. Some earlier posts have been edited, any more in this thread that require editing will receive infractions.

Cheers

[SassyMummy]

I think the reason people are so anti-circumcision in infant males is the same as just about everyone (in Australia at least) is against female circumcision... because it's not needed, it's not beneficial, and it's out-dated. It's not about trying to stop parents from making choices - it's about trying to eradicate a painful, unnecessary practice which make anti-circers will see as taking away the most basic of human rights from a child.

I'm not sure anyone cares about what an adult male does with his body. If he wants to be circed, then so be it. Nobody cares because the choice is his to make. The removal of hte foreskin in an infant though, when there is no medical reason necessary, is not the choice of that person at all. It's a choice made for them, by their parent.

Now you might argue that all parents make decisions for us - yes, they do. My mother breast and bottlefed me, I was caesarean-born, I wore cloth nappies...etc etc. But not one of these choices has permanently altered my body in any way.

I'm also pretty "natural" in general, and figure there's a reason we're designed as we are, and thus would never condone radical procedures to alter our bodies for no reason other htan cosmetic (and as circumcision does NOT guarantee a cleaner penis, I don't see that as a reason either).

I also question religious reasons - if God (or any other type of higher being one might believe in) wanted boys to have no foreskin... why were they born with one in the first place? I'm not religious, so maybe that's why I cannot understand it...

I also think that the reason people voice their negative opinions on issues such as this, is because they seek chance. ALL OVER CHANGE.

Look at Tibet at the moment. China's violating the poor Tibetian people... and while nothing has really changed, anti-China protesters at the Olympic torch relays have brought the issue back into the limelight in hopes that it will evoke such response that a change is made. Those protesters feel strongly that the Tibetans are not being given basic human rights, and so they are basically saying, "This is wrong!"

It might not affect them directly... but they're fighting for a people that cannot defend themselves.

I feel it's a similar idea for anti-circers - they're trying to defend babies who otherwise do not have a voice.

[Roopee]

These are just some of the reasons as to why I feel strongly about it

Because it is a non essential precedure.
Because it doesn't 'prevent' anything.
Because all the 'for' reasons I have ever read are irrelevant in this society.
Because it's lopping off a part of someone's sexual organ.
And because it is not my penis and I have no right to make that decision.

I will not have my girls circ'd- therefore i will not have my boys circ'd.

However- if that is the choice a parent makes for their child (and yes, it may be unfortunate that as parents we seem to have the right to make such monumental decisions on our childrens behalf) then, well I dont like it but there isn't a whole lot I can do about it.

[Lillynix]

Pretty much what SassyMummy said :)

I am anti-circ because I view it as cruel and unnecessary punishment of a newborn baby.

They were born with foreskins, leave it there.

It is their body, not yours. Don't amputate a part of it without their consent.

There is no valid reason for it. You can throw around all the 'avoiding infection' 'religious' and 'helps prevent STI' 'daddy is done' reasons you want, but none of them are valid to a point that it makes it okay to chop off part of someone elses body without their consent. Sure, you might be the parents, but that doesn't make it okay.

Circumcision is wrong, on more than one level. It is time people accept this, stop defending their reasons and come to terms with the fact that circumcision is not necessary in the vast, vast majority of cases.

Inflciting pain on a newborn baby is wrong. Just because they wont remember it and don't have the skills to communicate with you doesn't mean it doesn't hurt nor does it make it okay.

That is why I am anti-circ. I just can't believe that there are still people in this world that do think it's okay to inflect unnecessary pain on a newborn baby...

What is best for the baby is to spare him pain and possible resentment, and let him keep his foreskin :)

[Kaitlins Mum]

WOW. Ok I admit I started this thread to see why people were so against circumcision, but most of the replies have horrified me!

Again, please let me clarify I am not pro-circ, nor am I anti-circ. I'm pro-choice, and that is all.

How can you even compare male circ to female circ? Female circumcision totally deforms the woman, making her open to UTI's and numerous other life-threatening infections. It takes her around 5 minutes to pee, because of the horrific damage done to her. There is no reason for FC other than religious necessity, which says the woman should feel no sexual gratification. That is not why male circ is done. The majority of the time, MC is done to prevent infections. There is just no comparison, in my opinion! :no:

[Beany]

Female genital mutilation occurs in degrees. Certainly, the male counterpart is not as debilitating as some of the more "thorough" forms of female circumcision but it is EXACTLY akin to the standard practice of the removal of the clitoral hood: the female equivalent of the male foreskin.

The removal of the clitoral hood and the other forms of modifications that the girls are forced to undergo are often done to preserve innocence (by diminishing sexual pleasure) - the self same reason the procedure was so thoroughly canvassed for in the USA: to stop little boys masturbating.

Furthermore, the removal of the clitoral hood is often done for religious and cultural reasons. And, in an awful lot of cases, so that the girl will look like her mother. Again, an argument often used to justify male circumcision.

So I think the comparison is well justifiable.

To say the anti-RIC people can't see the other side is false: we can see it. We have researched and have fought against the tide to stand by our convictions. We aren't refusing to see evidence supporting the need for the procedure - we just haven't been presented with any that stand up under scrutiny.

it IS the anti-circumcision section. We have strong opinions and in our opinion, inflicting undue stress and pain on a child, altering it's bodily state permanently without his permission, is cruel.

[chicky2lala]

I was just wondering why so many people on the forum are so anti the Animal Humane Society?

Obviously, non of your pets are subjected to cruelty, so why does it bother you so much that other people choose to do it to their pets?

Let's abolish child protective services.. because apparently we only have to worry about what we do to our own kids and not what other people do to theirs. We can't have an international ethos of caring for children whether they live in our house, our street, our state, our country or our planet. No, we only have to watch our own kids and the world stops there.
:yelclap::yelclap::D

[Ange&Seth]

I've personally never seen any evidence of parents berating other people's choices.

I have and been on the recieving end also. It's the lack of respect that comes with the judgement. No one cares what the reasons for the decision were, or what a hard decision it was to make - just that it happened and that makes me an unkind person apparently. The people making this judgement of me don't even know me, yet I'm met with scorn.

If someone believes it to be harmful, then perhaps a better way is to campaign to have RIC made illegal - rather than sitting on a parenting forum making sarcastic and degrading comments towards other parents (this is in no way directed at you specifically Libby).

[Ange&Seth]

I had another thought. Pro-anything means that you believe ALL should be doing it that way unless something gets in the way of that. For instance, being pro-breastfeeding means that I believe ALL babies should have access to breastmilk except in the case where breastmilk can cause more harm than good. So how can someone be PRO circing unless they believe ALL babies should be done?

So what section is for those of use who don't care if you chose to do it or not? Those who don't believe in it have this Anti section, but most of the Pro's don't believe it should be done to EVERY child but in your explanation that means that we don't belong in the Pro section either. Discuss It - well that's just a minefield in itself, so where are we to discuss our views if we're not really welcome in any section ?

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

Ok please do not see this as an attack, I'm genuinely interested in everyone's answers! :)

I was just wondering why so many people on the forum are anti-circumcision? Obviously, none of your children are circumcised, so why does it bother you so much that other people choose this for their children?


OH, and just for the record, I have a daughter and a bub on the way. If this bub is a boy we will not be circumcising, for the one reason that DH is not done and he sees no reason for it. BUT, having said that, that is his decision and I'm not for it nor against it, I see it as a decision each parent makes for their child, like birthing choices, immunisations etc.

So yeah, back to my original question - why does it bother you so much if other people choose this for their own children?

Thanks for all replies - any and all are welcome, but please keep it nice! :)

I just want to know why you asked if you didn't want to know and it would make you so angry????
Everyone was just telling you their reasons.

[SassyMummy]

Yes, I do think that if you ask a question, you should be prepared for whatever responses you get. Even if they p*ss you off.

And to whomever said something about making RIC illegal, rather than talking about it here... I talk about it here because people ask for opinions here. If people don't ask for opinions or advice, I will not offer one. But here, well, people ask, so I deliver. :)

[Ange&Seth]

And to whomever said something about making RIC illegal, rather than talking about it here... I talk about it here because people ask for opinions here. If people don't ask for opinions or advice, I will not offer one. But here, well, people ask, so I deliver. :)

I wasn't talking about ppl like you Sass who give an opinion when it's asked, I was talking about the ones who berate the parents who chose to have the procedure performed because they felt it was in their child's best interests. After the fact, there's not much point is there? Except to feel good about putting others down and being blatantly rude to them. Again, not talking about you Stace.

[Beany]

It's not to berate those that have made their decisions, Ange. At least, I know that isn't the case when I offer my opinions. I do so to help inform others, sway the fence-sitters, the ones that haven't yet had it done, inform the pregnant and the ones trying to conceive.

I argue my points on this and other issues mostly for the lurkers.

[Ange&Seth]

Yep Beany, you're one that doesn't abuse others - but there are some out there who do and my post was directed at them.

Everyone's entitled to their opinions and some people can put theirs forward without damning those who have already made the decision to have the procedure performed - and then there are those that can't seem to stop themselves berating those said parents.

Like I said, I see the whole thing as a respect issue and quite often in these threads there doesn't seem to be any. I love a good circ thread that doesn't get too heated and both sides of the fence listen to eachother while the fence-sitters get an insight into both worlds. Most of the time though I come away from a thread thinking of how appalling everyone's responses are to each other and I just don't think it's called for.

[forbetoel]

I am against it becasue it is unnecessary.Fullstop.

[Kaitlins Mum]

The reason I asked was because I was genuinely interested as to why some people find it necessary to criticise others for their decisions, just because they don't agree.

Then a whole lot of narrow-minded people came in and started saying it's abuse etc, and to be honest I'm horrified people can be so close minded.

Circumcision is a medical precedure, done the best, pain-reduced way possible. It's not as if the child's foreskin is ripped off, or hacked at with a knife.

And to compare male and female circumcision, well, that just glows with ignorance. :no:

I asked because I wanted intelligent answers, not narrow-minded ones.

Shame, really.

[MummaBear03]

The reason I asked was because I was genuinely interested as to why some people find it necessary to criticise others for their decisions, just because they don't agree.

Then a whole lot of narrow-minded people came in and started saying it's abuse etc, and to be honest I'm horrified people can be so close minded.

Circumcision is a medical precedure, done the best, pain-reduced way possible. It's not as if the child's foreskin is ripped off, or hacked at with a knife.

And to compare male and female circumcision, well, that just glows with ignorance. :no:

I asked because I wanted intelligent answers, not narrow-minded ones.

Shame, really.

Pain reduced isn't good enough :no: it's admitting it's highly painful. Shots are painful, but at least they don't wee on the needle area after while it's still sore. It's not necessary, it's not at all necessary. I have never heard of any cases of uncirc'd boys having major problems and there are a lot of uncirc'd boys I've met through childcare!

[Ange&Seth]

Pain reduced isn't good enough :no: it's admitting it's highly painful. Shots are painful, but at least they don't wee on the needle area after while it's still sore. It's not necessary, it's not at all necessary. I have never heard of any cases of uncirc'd boys having major problems and there are a lot of uncirc'd boys I've met through childcare!


That's wonderful mummabear but there are those of us who have had family history of problems and have made the decision that we felt was in the best interests of our children.

In all honesty, I don't care what anyone here thinks of our decision to circ our boy - it's none of their business. BUT if our son comes to us in many years' time and is upset about it then we'll deal with it there and then - if he wants reconstructive surgery then we'll pay for it because as most ppl say it's HIS penis. But again, we made the decision we felt was in his best interest.

[Sarahmum24]

Again, please let me clarify I am not pro-circ, nor am I anti-circ. I'm pro-choice, and that is all.



HMM, pro-choice, this is the only statement I find confusing, I don't think we as parents have the right to choose what is right or wrong for a boys penis, it is there choice!!


Psychological and emotional consequences

The British Medical Association (2006) state that "it is now widely accepted, including by the BMA, that this surgical procedure has medical and psychological risks."[46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#cite_note-BMAGuide-45) Goldman (1999) discussed the possible trauma of circumcision on children and parents, anxieties over the circumcised state, a tendency to repeat the trauma, and suggested a need on the part of circumcised doctors to find medical justifications for the procedure.[50] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#cite_note-49) Milos asserts the existence of "excruciating pain, perinatal encoding of the brain with violence, interruption of maternal-infant bonding, betrayal of infant trust..." among other consequences, and points to support groups providing information to Jewish parents "who are grappling with this difficult issue" as well as men "who perceive themselves as victims of a sexual assault."[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#cite_note-Milos-12) Moses et al. (1998) state that "scientific evidence is lacking" for psychological and emotional harm, and cite a longitudinal study finding no difference in developmental and behavioural indices.[51] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#cite_note-50)



Australasia

The Royal Australasian College of Physicians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Australasian_College_of_Physicians) states "there is no medical indication for routine neonatal circumcision". It states, "If the operation is to be performed, the medical attendant should ensure this is done by a competent operator, using appropriate anaesthesia and in a safe child-friendly environment"[45] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#cite_note-RACPSumm-44)
The Tasmanian President of the Australian Medical Association (AMA), Haydn Walters, has stated that the AMA would support a call to ban circumcision for non-medical, non-religious reasons.[109] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#cite_note-108)

[Kaitlins Mum]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlins Mum http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?p=2770341#post2770341)
Again, please let me clarify I am not pro-circ, nor am I anti-circ. I'm pro-choice, and that is all.


HMM, pro-choice, this is the only statement I find confusing, I don't think we as parents have the right to choose what is right or wrong for a boys penis, it is there choice!!


It is part of our responsibility as a parent to make the right decisions for our children while they are too young to make them by themselves. I've read on this forum that circ under 6 months of age is much less painful and less stressful for the child, and to be honest I don't know many 6 month olds capable of making that decision.

You choose what your child eats, wears etc, right? And you make the best decision for your child, based on your knowledge and experience. The decision to circ or not to circ is just the same.

[MummaBear03]

It is part of our responsibility as a parent to make the right decisions for our children while they are too young to make them by themselves. I've read on this forum that circ under 6 months of age is much less painful and less stressful for the child, and to be honest I don't know many 6 month olds capable of making that decision.

You choose what your child eats, wears etc, right? And you make the best decision for your child, based on your knowledge and experience. The decision to circ or not to circ is just the same.

Poor fashion choices aren't scarring. Many people make wrong decisions with food due to lack of education, and that's potentially harmful too. For instance, if a mother says her baby at 6 months has a Maccas diet, she just puts it through the blender, then of course that's up to the mother but it doesn't make it right. There's no rules saying you can't do that to your child though.

[andrewJ]

Again, please let me clarify I am not pro-circ, nor am I anti-circ. I'm pro-choice, and that is all.

so are we. pro personal choice, not parental choice

i resent being circumcised for exactly those reasons. i.e i had no choice

babies are not possessions, they are people

[andrewJ]

You choose what your child eats, wears etc, right? And you make the best decision for your child, based on your knowledge and experience. The decision to circ or not to circ is just the same.

what about the decision to get a tattoo for the baby?
the decision to remove their toes?
there are millions of ritual and potentially prophylactic decisions which parents accept that they simply dont have the right to make.

what is so special about the foreskin that means you should make a decision about whether it should stay?

why the foreskin, and nothing else?

[Kaitlins Mum]

But Andrew, it's not JUST foreskin. The reason foreskin is discussed here is because the topic is circumcision.

If you had tonsillitis as a baby and your parents made the choice to get your tonsils removed to help you, would you resent that too?

I know babies are not possessions, but as their PARENT you want the best for them. If you believe circumcision is in their best interests, how is that so bad? It's not as if the parents making this decision are doing it for entertainment value, or to upset you later in life. Its what they see as the best option.

Are you upset because you have no foreskin, or because it was not a decision you made personally? If you don't mind me asking...

[Beany]

But Andrew, it's not JUST foreskin. The reason foreskin is discussed here is because the topic is circumcision.

If you had tonsillitis as a baby and your parents made the choice to get your tonsils removed to help you, would you resent that too?

Not at all.

But if they removed my tonsils before they caused any issue at all? Absolutely.

[forbetoel]

Not at all.

But if they removed my tonsils before they caused any issue at all? Absolutely.

That is true....but I don't think that anyone could argue that having your tonsils removed and having a piece of your penis removed are two very different things.

My Dh wouldn't even know if his tonsels were there, but he knows that he is circumsised.

I honestly don't think there are too many men out mourning the loss of their tonsels iykwim?

Removing the tonsels doesn't change the taste or texture of food, removing the foreskin changes quite a few things, that need to be acknowledged....whether you are pro, anti or just pro-choice.

[MummaBear03]

Not at all.

But if they removed my tonsils before they caused any issue at all? Absolutely.

That's right, my mum had trouble, the only one of us 3 that have had them removed is my brother who was in uni at the time. Why remove parts of the body before anything happens, when it's unlikely anything will happen?

[andrewJ]

But Andrew, it's not JUST foreskin. The reason foreskin is discussed here is because the topic is circumcision.

If you had tonsillitis as a baby and your parents made the choice to get your tonsils removed to help you, would you resent that too?

there is a world of difference between removing a diseased bodypart, and a healthy one.

im pretty sure that removing tonsils for no reason IS illegal. bodily integrity is a human right.
moreover, all surgery is inherently risky.

i wouldnt care so much about the tonsils, because i cant imagine how it would really affect me, but i would certainly think it was a very weird decision.

the foreskin is the ONLY bodypart that some parents think they must make a decision over, whether it is healthy or not. this distinction is something that just makes no sense to me. what is so special about it?




Are you upset because you have no foreskin, or because it was not a decision you made personally? If you don't mind me asking...

both. it is a decision i would never have made

[GiftofLife]

the foreskin is the ONLY bodypart that some parents think they must make a decision over, whether it is healthy or not. this distinction is something that just makes no sense to me. what is so special about it?







What's so special about it is that by removing the foreskin, countless problems can be avoided, such as UTI's, STD's and even cancer. People can harp on all they want about research being botched and yada, yada, but imo, the FACTS are clear, circumcision goes a long way towards preventing those things.

And the FACT of the matter is that most males in the their lifetime, WILL experience a problem with their foreskin. Yes, a lot of those problems, will be minor and treatable, but a lot of others will not and circumcision will be required.

As for the whole, you lose so much thing, how would you know?? You couldn't possibly remember ever having a foreskin, and a man with one, will never know what it's like to be without one. It would be like me claiming that I know what it feels like to have a penis........completely ridiculous, because there is no possible way that I could.

For someone who has apparently lost so much, my DF certainly seems to get a lot of pleasure from our sex life, and I know that he doesn't consider himself to be missing something or lacking in any way. I have looked at the penises of both circumcised and uncircumcised men and when the penis is erect, it is IMPOSSIBLE to tell the difference. So please fill me in on how one is superior??

I must say that at least I put some merit into your opinion, you are after all a man with a penis. I have to giggle about all the women who get on their high horses, when the fact is that none of them have any idea at all, about what having a penis or a foreskin for that matter, is like.

We as parents do what we believe to be the best for our children. If my boys have a problem with the choices I have made for them later in life, I will deal with that on a 'need to' basis. However I am quite sure that it will never be an issue.

[Beany]

What's so special about it is that by removing the foreskin, countless problems can be avoided, such as UTI's, STD's and even cancer. People can harp on all they want about research being botched and yada, yada, but imo, the FACTS are clear, circumcision goes a long way towards preventing those things.

In your opinion, an opinion not shared by the vast majority of health care professionals and organisations throughout the civilised world. A opinion, in fact, rejected by such bodies.


And the FACT of the matter is that most males in the their lifetime, WILL experience a problem with their foreskin. Yes, a lot of those problems, will be minor and treatable, but a lot of others will not and circumcision will be required.

And the FACT of the matter is that women will experience problems with their reproductive organs. They will more than likely get UTIs (more often than men, actually), thrush, yeast infections and all manner of things. We don't treat those with a preventative approach and chop bits off a new born girl, either.


For someone who has apparently lost so much, my DF certainly seems to get a lot of pleasure from our sex life, and I know that he doesn't consider himself to be missing something or lacking in any way. I have looked at the penises of both circumcised and uncircumcised men and when the penis is erect, it is IMPOSSIBLE to tell the difference. So please fill me in on how one is superior??

Of course not. The penis doesn't lose all feeling but the sensation is diminished - we know this as fact because the nerve endings on the foreskin are lost. Moreover, the sensitive penis is left exposed and is effectively callused as it's protectional device (the foreskin - that's it's purpose, to protect the sensitive glans) is lost. It's like having soft fingers or a seamstresses fingers, calloused and hardened by exposure and use.


I must say that at least I put some merit into your opinion, you are after all a man with a penis. I have to giggle about all the women who get on their high horses, when the fact is that none of them have any idea at all, about what having a penis or a foreskin for that matter, is like.

Easy: empathy. I may not have a penis but I do have a clitoris and it's hood, thank goodness all of it in tact. Just as I would hate to have had my parents remove those at some early and arbitrary age, I assume my son would hate to lose parts of his body simply because I thought he should. It's his penis. If he so decides to get circumcised at a an age where he can make the medical decision to do so, that's his choice and his right.

Just like it isn't my right to tattoo things onto his body to ward off evil spirits, it's not my right to chop bits off to protect him from dangers that are not statistically significant and certainly not significant enough to perform body altering surgery before just cause.

[GiftofLife]

In your opinion, an opinion not shared by the vast majority of health care professionals and organisations throughout the civilised world. A opinion, in fact, rejected by such bodies.



And the FACT of the matter is that women will experience problems with their reproductive organs. They will more than likely get UTIs (more often than men, actually), thrush, yeast infections and all manner of things. We don't treat those with a preventative approach and chop bits off a new born girl, either.



Of course not. The penis doesn't lose all feeling but the sensation is diminished - we know this as fact because the nerve endings on the foreskin are lost. Moreover, the sensitive penis is left exposed and is effectively callused as it's protectional device (the foreskin - that's it's purpose, to protect the sensitive glans) is lost. It's like having soft fingers or a seamstresses fingers, calloused and hardened by exposure and use.



Easy: empathy. I may not have a penis but I do have a clitoris and it's hood, thank goodness all of it in tact. Just as I would hate to have had my parents remove those at some early and arbitrary age, I assume my son would hate to lose parts of his body simply because I thought he should. It's his penis. If he so decides to get circumcised at a an age where he can make the medical decision to do so, that's his choice and his right.

Just like it isn't my right to tattoo things onto his body to ward off evil spirits, it's not my right to chop bits off to protect him from dangers that are not statistically significant and certainly not significant enough to perform body altering surgery before just cause.

I've heard it all before and I'll hear it all again. Your sig sums up my thoughts beautifully.

[OneBabyBoy]

As for the whole, you lose so much thing, how would you know?? You couldn't possibly remember ever having a foreskin, and a man with one, will never know what it's like to be without one. It would be like me claiming that I know what it feels like to have a penis........completely ridiculous, because there is no possible way that I could.


Just a note on this point. One of my ex boyfriends was circumsized after he became sexually active. He experienced a loss of sexual pleasure and sensitivity (because he no longer had the foreskin to protect it) and also issues with friction (sorry tmi) and alot of other things he never experienced when he was intact. I'm sure your partner enjoys sex very much but he doesnt know just how much he would have enjoyed it if his parents had let him keep his foreskin.

[andrewJ]

What's so special about it is that by removing the foreskin, countless problems can be avoided, such as UTI's, STD's and even cancer.

I will (only) for the sake of argument, accept that there are many things that circumcision can prevent and avoid. But this doesnt make the foreskin unique.
if you remove a body part, that body part can no longer go wrong. Name a body part and i could provide a list of 'potential benefits' in removing it.

so, what is so special about the foreskin?


And the FACT of the matter is that most males in the their lifetime, WILL experience a problem with their foreskin.

I dont know if thats a major part of your argument, but its just not true.


please fill me in on how one is superior??


i have expressed exactly my problems with it before, and i don't feel like doing it again. Basically because it feels very weird talking to strangers (or anyone really) about the details of my penis.

nerve endings are complicated things. all doing different jobs. All at varying densities, and at varying distances from the surface of the skin. Suffice to say, that not all skin is equal, regardless of its external appearance. I think I'll leave it at that.

[Beany]

I've heard it all before and I'll hear it all again. Your sig sums up my thoughts beautifully.

Quite right, you have and you will. And it wasn't for your benefit I said it. It was so that your misinformation didn't remain unchallenged on an anti-circumcision thread, so that parents to come and little boys to come will not suffer needlessly under the mantle of "parental choice" and so that they will retain physical and sexual integrity.

Just as their mothers and sisters are not just allowed but legally required to.

[chicky2lala]

In your opinion, an opinion not shared by the vast majority of health care professionals and organisations throughout the civilised world. A opinion, in fact, rejected by such bodies.



And the FACT of the matter is that women will experience problems with their reproductive organs. They will more than likely get UTIs (more often than men, actually), thrush, yeast infections and all manner of things. We don't treat those with a preventative approach and chop bits off a new born girl, either.



Of course not. The penis doesn't lose all feeling but the sensation is diminished - we know this as fact because the nerve endings on the foreskin are lost. Moreover, the sensitive penis is left exposed and is effectively callused as it's protectional device (the foreskin - that's it's purpose, to protect the sensitive glans) is lost. It's like having soft fingers or a seamstresses fingers, calloused and hardened by exposure and use.



Easy: empathy. I may not have a penis but I do have a clitoris and it's hood, thank goodness all of it in tact. Just as I would hate to have had my parents remove those at some early and arbitrary age, I assume my son would hate to lose parts of his body simply because I thought he should. It's his penis. If he so decides to get circumcised at a an age where he can make the medical decision to do so, that's his choice and his right.

Just like it isn't my right to tattoo things onto his body to ward off evil spirits, it's not my right to chop bits off to protect him from dangers that are not statistically significant and certainly not significant enough to perform body altering surgery before just cause.
Brilliant post Beany......sums up my feelings entirely.....you definately have a way with words too.....:yes::yelclap:

[Sailor]

I new here and would like to give my two cents worth.

I was born here in Canada at a time when circumcision was done 90% of the time. It is not about 17%.

Anyway I always felt a little awkward about it. And considered having it done as an adult. But when I looked into it in detail it has very much turned me against it. I now view myself as a lucky man from my generation.

Having read a great deal of the resent studies. Man who are intact Do FEEL more. That's a good thing and I will become an even better thing as I age.

[Hollywood]

I new here and would like to give my two cents worth.

I was born here in Canada at a time when circumcision was done 90% of the time. It is not about 17%.

Anyway I always felt a little awkward about it. And considered having it done as an adult. But when I looked into it in detail it has very much turned me against it. I now view myself as a lucky man from my generation.

Having read a great deal of the resent studies. Man who are intact Do FEEL more. That's a good thing and I will become an even better thing as I age.

Great to hear it from a man's point of view, it affirms that I made a good decision for my son by not having him circ'd. Thanks for yor input! :thumbsup:

[MummaBear03]

Just remember this is the anti-circ thread and not the discuss it thread :)

Should we remove the appendix, tonsils, toes? Yes, toes. Most people in their lifetime will have problems with an ingrown toe nail that will likely lead to infection, some of these will have it so bad that their toe nail has to be surgically removed. Removing the toe at birth will prevent this from happening later in life ;)

[BrookeandLou]

I watched the Oprah episode about 'the pregnant man'. The 'guy'(still with girl reproductive parts) said when he started taking Male hormones his Clitoris grew into a Small penis......

As soon as I heard that I cringed at the thought of what people were doing to their sons.
I only have girls and its illegal to circumcise them, although its okay to do the same to a boy IYKWIM....

[xkwzit]

We have actually strayed WAY off the OP, which was

why does it bother you so much if other people choose this [RIC] for their own children?

Please keep to the topic. We do have a few threads (while they might be closed, they will still come up if you search) about the perceived risks and benefits of circumcision. If you have something to say about that, please start a new thread (it really deserves one of it's own). This one is for sharing why you feel the way you do about RIC.

Cheers

[bunintheoven12]

WOW. Ok I admit I started this thread to see why people were so against circumcision, but most of the replies have horrified me!

Again, please let me clarify I am not pro-circ, nor am I anti-circ. I'm pro-choice, and that is all.

How can you even compare male circ to female circ? Female circumcision totally deforms the woman, making her open to UTI's and numerous other life-threatening infections. It takes her around 5 minutes to pee, because of the horrific damage done to her. There is no reason for FC other than religious necessity, which says the woman should feel no sexual gratification. That is not why male circ is done. The majority of the time, MC is done to prevent infections. There is just no comparison, in my opinion! :no:

This is the last time I will post in this thread, due to the fact that I feel the people replying are too narrow-minded to even see the other side of the story. This actually saddens me because I thought that such ignorance was not as common these days.

You're coming across pretty pro circ to me

[BecNBub]

i only asked my partner this question a couple of days ago, we're only 13.5 weeks now but even so....

He's not cirumcised, and we both have no intention of getting a circumcision done to our son (if its a boy), why should we... it's simply a matter of teaching him how to keep it clean etc.

Sure, if he does keep having continuing probs etc we would consider it if it got to that stage, but its no different for a woman really....

We clean our "bits" too, and so what makes it any different if your a male???

[mandy2007]

my son was never done as when my sister got my nephew done it was bad he was not far off needing a blood transfusion as the plastic bell was not put on correct and was holding it open if it was not for our own doctor my nephew may not be here today

[nataliaandreecesmummy]

Hi there. Okay but do you also know that the foreskins can also cause death to woman. Because some forskins carrie the cervix cancer bug... See there are so many reasons to have or not to have... Okay you see how many people getting up set about this and saying it is abuse then why did these people alow the govement to up the age to 24 weeks that u can abort your pregency... Know do u class this as abuse because this is a human by this stage... I do belive that woman that have been raped or abuse well then yes... But for people who just fall pregnant because they where not careful i reckon no they should go through the pregency and let this child be brought up even if it is with a family that has been trying for years and they can't fall pregnant..

DO U SEE WHERE I AM COMING FROM KNOW WITH EVERYONE HAVING THERE REASONS... LOOK WE SHOULD NOT JUDGE PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY HAVE OR HAVE NOT CIRC THERE SONS... U SAY IT IS ABUSE I SAY WHAT ABOUT THE BABIES THAT DON'T EVEN GET THE CHANCE TO BE ALIVE... LOOK I AM NOT TRYING TO BE MEAN but there is so much in the world that people could fight about...

We are looking into having the circumcision done.. Because i have seen what my brother in-law has to go through. He is not and he keeps himself clean and is always having problems with his penis.. Where my Hubby is and he has no problems what so ever...

[~Emmylou~]

I'm pro-choice too.

Pro the choices of the owner of the penis.

That is fundamentally why I care about what other people do to their babies - bodily integrity is a fundamental human right, and no one has the right to make decisions about removing healthy parts of other people's bodies. Including their parents.

[MotherNurture]

I haven't read all the replies, but my reasons for being against it are many. It's virtually never medically necessary. I see it as surgical genital modification; I believe in gender equality and believe children deserve equal protection from genital cutting. Circumcision is the altering of another person's sexuality. I don't believe that's an ethical or reasonable parental role. Circumcision-of both genders-has it's roots in hysteria about sexual pleasure and masturbation; the purpose is to reduce pleasure so that sex is merely procreative. I believe that our bodies are our own...they belong to us...if I want to cosmetically alter my vulva or sacrifice part of my reproductive organs as an act of faith, it should be *my* choice. There's no compelling reason circumcision cannot or should not be left up to the individual the sex organ(s) belong to.

[FishFace]

I guess I just dont agree with bits being cut off a baby.

Bbaies are perfect and I dont see why anyone feels the need to cut bits.

Some people give the most absurd reasons like, I want him to look like daddy... dont think he will spend much time looking at daddys penis!
Or..
I think circumsised penises look better..You wont be looking at it much either and to even think of your sons sexual partners just seems ..ewwww.

Apart from when medically neccesary I dont agree at all.

[Phyllis Stein]

I haven't read all the replies, but my reasons for being against it are many. It's virtually never medically necessary. I see it as surgical genital modification; I believe in gender equality and believe children deserve equal protection from genital cutting. Circumcision is the altering of another person's sexuality. I don't believe that's an ethical or reasonable parental role. Circumcision-of both genders-has it's roots in hysteria about sexual pleasure and masturbation; the purpose is to reduce pleasure so that sex is merely procreative. I believe that our bodies are our own...they belong to us...if I want to cosmetically alter my vulva or sacrifice part of my reproductive organs as an act of faith, it should be *my* choice. There's no compelling reason circumcision cannot or should not be left up to the individual the sex organ(s) belong to.

:iagree:

Even if scientists do prove that circing prevents the spread of disease (and that's still a long way from being the case), I'm still 100% against RIC. It is not our right to decide that our babies will be modified in order to prevent diseases mostly transmitted by and to adults. If my son wants to sacrifice his foreskin to the cause as an adult, all power to him. But for me to make that decision for him is akin to an absolute abuse of power IMO.

As for the fears of infection of his own penis, etc, I think the evidence is there to show that RIC is absolutely over the top as a preventative health measure. It truly is exactly the same as amputating a toe to prevent ingrown toenails IMO, and of course we'd be up in arms if that was routine.

The argument that son must look like daddy simply make me ill. I can't imagine even thinking like that about your own child. How many of us think about our vaginas looking like our mothers???

I am happy in the knowledge that my son will grow up with his body intact and have no impediments to a full sexual experience as an adult. I only wish other babies were granted the same right.

[Pax]

over in the IVF gender selection thread, parents think it is their right to CHOOSE the sex of the baby.. umm welll a circumcision is less big deal than that..

Like i said in that thread, humans never cease to amaze me in their thought processes

Its okay to gender select but not okay to circumcise.. all very weird to me I say.

glad i am an alien LOL you humans have gone mad :laughing:

[stellarella]

It bothers me the same way that any other abuse or mistreatment of humans bothers me. It bothers me the same way that mistreatment or torture of animals bothers me...

Many of us speak out against whaling, female genital mutilation, tail docking of dogs....the RSPCA fines people for harming animals.

I don't see it any differently to the above examples. They all involve someone vulnerable being harmed in some way by someone bigger, stronger or more powerful.

Even if the intentions are good, they are still misguided. And good intentions are not enough and it's not an excuse.

They are all things which I consider to be wrong, harmful, painful etc.

I have a social conscience. I don't just care about me and mine.

ETA: And I am pro-choice too!! A man should have the choice to have his own foreskin removed or left just the way it is.

[Phyllis Stein]

over in the IVF gender selection thread, parents think it is their right to CHOOSE the sex of the baby.. umm welll a circumcision is less big deal than that..

Like i said in that thread, humans never cease to amaze me in their thought processes

Its okay to gender select but not okay to circumcise.. all very weird to me I say.

glad i am an alien LOL you humans have gone mad :laughing:

I've never understood why some people think that because there are worse (in their estimation) abuses of power out there, 'minor' ones don't matter.

I also don't get how people think it's actually their right to decide what is 'trivial' when it comes to surgically modifying someone elses body without their consent.

[Pax]

I've never understood why some people think that because there are worse (in their estimation) abuses of power out there, 'minor' ones don't matter.

I also don't get how people think it's actually their right to decide what is 'trivial' when it comes to surgically modifying someone elses body without their consent.

I have never met a man circumcised or uncircumcised that regrets their personal situation or holds a grudge towards their parents..

i dont know a man that remembers the 'cruel' experience.

I dont think it is a trivial matter, in fact i agree that it is their choice to make hence why i fought my son's father and refused to let him do it to our son.

It is however, from my experience of talking to men about it, NOT a big deal whether they are either circ'd or not!

so long as it works they dont much care.

I am sure there are stories out there of sad men with circumcisions.. just havent ever known one.

people vaccinate without the kid having a choice.

this is parenting guys we have to make choices about our kids bodies.

[Phyllis Stein]

I have never met a man circumcised or uncircumcised that regrets their personal situation or holds a grudge towards their parents..

i dont know a man that remembers the 'cruel' experience.

I dont think it is a trivial matter, in fact i agree that it is their choice to make hence why i fought my son's father and refused to let him do it to our son.

It is however, from my experience of talking to men about it, NOT a big deal whether they are either circ'd or not!

so long as it works they dont much care.

I am sure there are stories out there of sad men with circumcisions.. just havent ever known one.

people vaccinate without the kid having a choice.

this is parenting guys we have to make choices about our kids bodies.

And you are just one person with inherently limited experience which you're making the mistake of generalising to all (or most) men.

I'm also guessing that you don't bring the topic of circ up with many men you meet, and even if you did, I doubt many men would be willing to share their innermost feelings about their genital integrity with you? Our society shames men for having feelings full stop - I can't imagine how difficult it must be to admit that you are upset at being circed.

In addition, the majority of men simply don't ever research into what exactly it is that was taken from them, what they now lack. Most subscribe to the false belief that a foreskin is just a 'useless bit of skin' - no big loss. I'm guessing that the current generation, with more exposure to circ information on the internet, will bring about far greater numbers of "sad", even outraged circumcised men. I imagine most men wouldn't choose a loss of sexual sensitivity if it could be avoided...

All things considered, your limited experience (just like mine) is not the most relevant factor to consider when discussing the ethics of circ. It's simply not about us or our experiences, so much as it's about the human right to bodily integrity. Let the man who owns the penis decide.

[Pax]

Let the men who own the penis decide.


Judging by the amount of dead beat dads in the world i dont think men think about being responsible about their penises LOL their penises do a lot of the deciding and their bodies follow.

okay if you would like a social experiment i could go to a forum that is MOSTLY men and ask them and give you the link to watch the replies unfold..

you would be surprised at how open they are about talking about their penises in fact i think they would jump at the opportunity.. :laughing:

[Phyllis Stein]

And I could give you a link to a forum of men who'd tell you they are upset. So thanks but no thanks.

I think we're arguing at cross purposes anyway.

[FishFace]

I know this is jsut one person...

But I have a friend who is very upset at being circed.
He is VERY VERY sensitive on the tip and it makes sex terrible. He says its like being tickled..enjoyable at first but then its just plain awful Its too sensitive without the hood.

He is 35 so its not like he is a bubba.

What about botched ones..heard some horror stories there too.

[secondtimearound2]

Personally I believe cir has a lot to do with culture, religion or experience. Those that don’t fit into the above categories can’t comprehend why someone would/could do this to their son. Lack of understanding and cultural diversity is one of the many problems. Appallingly some feel euphoric by putting other parents down for their legal right as parents; it’s not always the case though. Some feel traumatized by the thought of cir are quite emotional about the subject and sometimes say things in the wrong manner (this is a forum full of hormones J) Remember at the end of the day it’s only words on a screen and walk away, have a cupper and calm down before posting judgmental posts. Abuse and mocking others does not get your point across. It’s also important to remember most figures you find regarding cir are RIC not cir in general, there are still boys, teens and men who need to under the procedure later in life.
HTH you to understand,
Cheers

[Just*Mia]

LOL I always think the circ debate is the funniest. So many OTT chest beating comments.

Im sure a boy that has come from a physically and emotionally abusive homelife wished the only thing in his childhood was that he never been circed thats if he even considered it in the same league.

At the end of the day its legal and people are free to choose. Just like you are to use chemical laden, cancer causing house cleaners and shampoos on your kids, or feed your kids junk food that is health destroying etc and strangely so much more readily available.

[mumofKieran]

I haven't read through all the posts, but in answer to the PO, I think the reason why so many people are so passionate about it is because it inflicts pain at the time and is about removing part of the body, so even though in our country parents have the right to choose, many people see this as unfair as it affects a baby who cannot yet decide for itself.

And out of interest, having noticed that some people have mentioned men who wish they weren't circumcised, I have a friend who wishes he was and has seriously thought about getting it done as an adult. I guess luckily for him though he can still make the decision, whereas for a man who has been done it's harder to get a foreskin back.

[girly]

It seems circumsion is a very hot topic on bubhub.. I'm circumsizing my son only becoz it looks better than having a penis that looks like an ant eater. Oh and dh said its cleaner..

[Jakois]

It seems circumsion is a very hot topic on bubhub. See how many veiws in 50mins. Holy crraapp. I'm circumsizing my son only becoz it looks better than having a penis that looks like an ant eater. Oh and dh said its cleaner..

:eek:You are kidding right??

[SassyMummy]

If you really think the "cleaner" reason is valid, it might be worth reading up on to see if it really is as valid as you think. Not saying he's wrong, or whatever, people will interpret texts differently... but if it's an important reason, then yeah.

The "anteater" comment though, is a bit... rude though.

I'm sure many people here have uncirced children and partners and would never ever think they looked like an anteater!

I wouldn't really want people making derogatory comments about my inner labia and whether it's tucked away inside my outer labia, or whether it hangs outside my outer labia (both of which are normal)... it would be rude to refer to woman's vagina as any sort of animal simply because of this.

It's the same with a man and his penis. There's a difference between saying, "I prefer the look of a circumcised penis," and "An uncirced penis looks like an anteater." One is tactfully expressing your opinion, the other is a potentially hurtful and rude remark that is not necessary.

[girly]

:eek:You are kidding right??

Yeh, I probably sound very immature but im sorry and dont mean to offend anyone but I think it looks better off.

[Jakois]

If you really think the "cleaner" reason is valid, it might be worth reading up on to see if it really is as valid as you think. Not saying he's wrong, or whatever, people will interpret texts differently... but if it's an important reason, then yeah.

The "anteater" comment though, is a bit... rude though.

I'm sure many people here have uncirced children and partners and would never ever think they looked like an anteater!

I wouldn't really want people making derogatory comments about my inner labia and whether it's tucked away inside my outer labia, or whether it hangs outside my outer labia (both of which are normal)... it would be rude to refer to woman's vagina as any sort of animal simply because of this.

It's the same with a man and his penis. There's a difference between saying, "I prefer the look of a circumcised penis," and "An uncirced penis looks like an anteater." One is tactfully expressing your opinion, the other is a potentially hurtful and rude remark that is not necessary.

Thanks Sassy. I am one of those parents who has 2 DS's that are not circ'd. I had to walk away before I wrote something Very Offensive in response.

[Jakois]

Yeh, I probably sound very immature but im sorry and dont mean to offend anyone but I think it looks better off.

Well if you want to subject your precious newborn to a painful procedure just for cosmetic reasons, so be it. I loved my boys to much to do that to them. Bear in mind you are in the ANTI_ CIRCUMCISION thread..

[Happychappy]

I only have girls and its illegal to circumcise them, although its okay to do the same to a boy IYKWIM....[/quote]

Your point here is where I am confused.................why is it that to circumcise a girl it is illegal but isn't for a male??:confused:

I think it should be the same for both - we are all equal aren't we??:ecomcity::ecomcity:

[girly]

I only have girls and its illegal to circumcise them, although its okay to do the same to a boy IYKWIM....

Your point here is where I am confused.................why is it that to circumcise a girl it is illegal but isn't for a male??:confused:

I think it should be the same for both - we are all equal aren't we??:ecomcity::ecomcity:[/quote]

When they circumsise a girl isnt it removing her clitoris, when circumsing a boy they are just removing useless skin.??

[Fuchsia!]

Your point here is where I am confused.................why is it that to circumcise a girl it is illegal but isn't for a male??:confused:

I think it should be the same for both - we are all equal aren't we??:ecomcity::ecomcity:

When they circumsise a girl isnt it removing her clitoris, when circumsing a boy they are just removing useless skin.??
Its still altering the apearence and inflicting totally un-necessary pain on a newborn or young baby.

And if its so "useless" then why bother taking it off?

[Happychappy]

Yeh, I probably sound very immature but im sorry and dont mean to offend anyone but I think it looks better off.


It's not about looks.

You may understand a little better when you are in the next room in your doctors surgery and all you can do is sit their and hear your poor little baby scream its lungs out because of the pain they are enduring - I've heard this happen on many many occassions

[Happychappy]

Its still altering the apearence and inflicting totally un-necessary pain on a newborn or young baby.

And if its so "useless" then why bother taking it off?

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
I don't think any part of the body should be described as "useless" especially a male's sexual organ that by removing can ultimately reduce his sexual pleasure !

[girly]

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
I don't think any part of the body should be described as "useless" especially a male's sexual organ that by removing can ultimately reduce his sexual pleasure !

I didnt say the whole penis was useless. Just that pointless skin on the end. Seriously you and everyone else knows very well its has no use. Its just there to do nothing.

[Happychappy]

I didnt say the whole penis was useless. Just that pointless skin on the end. Seriously you and everyone else knows very well its has no use. Its just there to do nothing.


I didn't say you said the whole penis was useless. You said there is a body part that is useless and this is where I disagree - sorry!

Seriously I and a lot of other people know - especially men - that it has a purpose.

Read up on some medical books and you may learn something about it.

[girly]

I didn't say you said the whole penis was useless. You said there is a body part that is useless and this is where I disagree - sorry!

Seriously I and a lot of other people know - especially men - that it has a purpose.

Read up on some medical books and you may learn something about it.

Can you just tell me what you and others think is its purpose.
I would think it would be to protect the peehole ? Is that right?

[SassyMummy]

A foreskin can protect the head of the penis. This is full of nerve endings. It's much like the male form of a clitoris.

Women have clitoral hoods. This protects the clitoris, and prevents it from being stimulated constantly.

Imagine if your clitoris was being rubbed all day long. Eventually, it would lose it's sensitivity and your ability to orgasm as a result of clitoral stimulation would lessen as a result.

The same goes for the head of the penis. When it's exposed, the sensitivity can lessen and therefore cause sex to be less pleasurable than it would have been if he had the protection of the foreskin.

[girly]

A foreskin can protect the head of the penis. This is full of nerve endings. It's much like the male form of a clitoris.

Women have clitoral hoods. This protects the clitoris, and prevents it from being stimulated constantly.

Imagine if your clitoris was being rubbed all day long. Eventually, it would lose it's sensitivity and your ability to orgasm as a result of clitoral stimulation would lessen as a result.

The same goes for the head of the penis. When it's exposed, the sensitivity can lessen and therefore cause sex to be less pleasurable than it would have been if he had the protection of the foreskin.

SassyMummy I think you should be a mod.

[Jakois]

SassyMummy I think you should be a mod.

:smiliedance:Go Sassy for Mod:smiliedance:

[SassyMummy]

Why? Because I'm online so much? :laughing::p:o

[Jakois]

Why? Because I'm online so much? :laughing::p:o

No my Dear. Because at the young age of 22, you have tact and wisdom that some at 50 have not achieved:D.

[girly]

Lol I think you should be a mod becoz you never take sides, you always give good info, and its like you know everything and your info is always up to date and helpful. And your posts are always so easy to understand.

[SassyMummy]

Awwww thanks. :o

I'll never be a mod though... I haven't had an infraction point in a long while, but let's just say I'm one rule-breaking comment away from being banished from BH land! :p

[Phyllis Stein]

"Prissy member" here! :wave: :laughing:


It seems circumsion is a very hot topic on bubhub.. I'm circumsizing my son only becoz it looks better than having a penis that looks like an ant eater. Oh and dh said its cleaner..

Are you really willing to subject your baby to surgery (with all it's risks) and permanent alteration of his body because of your own sexual preferences? I find that a bit... ew.

And it's not cleaner. That is a fallacy. A clean penis is a clean penis, regardless of circ; a dirty penis will be dirty whether circed or not. It completely depends on how the owner of the penis looks after it.



When they circumsise a girl isnt it removing her clitoris, when circumsing a boy they are just removing useless skin.??


I didnt say the whole penis was useless. Just that pointless skin on the end. Seriously you and everyone else knows very well its has no use. Its just there to do nothing.

Imagine calling women's clitoral hoods "a useless bit of skin"! A common form of female genital modification only removes the clitoral hood - does that make it ok? Without the foreskin to protect it, the head of the penis gets keritanised (skin gets thicker & almost 'calloused') - this can reduce sensation, or conversely, make the head over-sensitive.

I'd suggest you do some serious research before making your decision. After all, it's something your son will have to live with for the rest of his life.

[Roopee]

Another prissy member here:wave:
I have never met a man circumcised or uncircumcised that regrets their personal situation or holds a grudge towards their parents..

Then you haven't met my husband. He's not devastated per say but he is unhappy that his parents made such a monumental decision regarding his sex life without his consent.


It seems circumsion is a very hot topic on bubhub.. I'm circumsizing my son only becoz it looks better than having a penis that looks like an ant eater. Oh and dh said its cleaner..
Oh Dear.
Please read some information.
I take offense to the 'ant eater' thing too. I see it like this, a nose is ugly, a vagina is pretty ugly too but none of it is removed to 'pretty it up'.




When they circumsise a girl isnt it removing her clitoris, when circumsing a boy they are just removing useless skin.??

That 'useless' piece of skin has a heap of nerve endings in it which will attribute to you sons sexual pleasure. Remove it and you will be desensitising his penis- which means you will be responsible for the fact that his sexual pleasure will be reduced.
Are you happy to do that to your child?

Why am I so against RIC?
Because it is a completely useless procedure that should only be used in the case of extreme medical need. It's not cleaner, it doesn't guarantee a penis free from infection, it doesn't make that baby 'look like daddy', it IS pointless.

[girly]

I see what everyone is talking about. If I do have a son he wont get it done when is a baby he will be about 6-7 and it will be done overseas in Turkey. Its a traditional thing and we have no reason to do it, its just done. The boy has his part removed then a celebration is done. Its a culture thing...IYKWIM.

[bindiloo]

I think it is unneccesary and cruel to inflict that pain on a poor baby but i think it is much worst to put a 7 year old through that.:no:

[Pax]

I see what everyone is talking about. If I do have a son he wont get it done when is a baby he will be about 6-7 and it will be done overseas in Turkey. Its a traditional thing and we have no reason to do it, its just done. The boy has his part removed then a celebration is done. Its a culture thing...IYKWIM.


Hi,

Is it done under sterile conditions? would you consider getting it done by a doctor, woudnt that be a less painful and healthier option?

I know culturally speaking the pressure would be on you to do what the 'family' wants, but would they take issue with you doing it with a ring?

I do believe circumcision done without pain relief is very cruel... I hope you look into it a little bit.

[girly]

Hi,

Is it done under sterile conditions? would you consider getting it done by a doctor, woudnt that be a less painful and healthier option?

I know culturally speaking the pressure would be on you to do what the 'family' wants, but would they take issue with you doing it with a ring?

I do believe circumcision done without pain relief is very cruel... I hope you look into it a little bit.

Just becoz its not done in aus doesnt mean its not done sterile or done by a doctor. Im not going to look into it seeings there is nothing to look into. Its what we want as parents and its the thing to do, In our religion its what is done to boys. Same as in an african tradition they do it to girls. Its the cuture and you stick by it.

I think everyone is different. My mum married a Irishman and had two boys with him. They didnt get circsised but thats fine seeings its the father who made the dicision. Not the wife. I think if you have a religion to go by its a whole different concept. I would feel bad about the pain but its not my decision its religion and it has to be done.
Though I do repect everyone's opinion & advice I think when making any decision for your child should be though well into, but as for circusion to us it doesnt need thinking. IYKWIM

[FishFace]

so when its a religious reason, it doesnt need to be researched or looked into, you can just follow blindly????

[Pax]

so when its a religious reason, it doesnt need to be researched or looked into, you can just follow blindly????


apparantly so :rolleyes:

In South indian they bury their children alive for up to 2min's too because they dont question why

http://greatreporter.com/mambo/content/view/372/8/

I will never stop being impressed with blind faith.. it is a human marvel... just glad i dont have it.

[girly]

so when its a religious reason, it doesnt need to be researched or looked into, you can just follow blindly????


*sighs* Yehh pretty much.

[Pax]

*sighs* Yehh pretty much.


wow Shiraaa... you do know we have laws in australia to protect women and children!!!

anyway none of my business, just feel very sad for you that you dont use your own mind and have opinions and choices regarding your son.. you just seem to accept this without any thought.

You dont have to you know.

[Fuchsia!]

Just becoz its not done in aus doesnt mean its not done sterile or done by a doctor. Im not going to look into it seeings there is nothing to look into. Its what we want as parents and its the thing to do, In our religion its what is done to boys. Same as in an african tradition they do it to girls. Its the cuture and you stick by it.

I think everyone is different. My mum married a Irishman and had two boys with him. They didnt get circsised but thats fine seeings its the father who made the dicision. Not the wife. I think if you have a religion to go by its a whole different concept. I would feel bad about the pain but its not my decision its religion and it has to be done.
Though I do repect everyone's opinion & advice I think when making any decision for your child should be though well into, but as for circusion to us it doesnt need thinking. IYKWIM

You always have a choice, always.

To blame religion as a reason you HAVE to do it is ridiculous. Religion is not an excuse to not research and make a decision for yourself.

There are many Jewish families who are now not RIC their children.

Don't say you don't have a choice, cause everyone has a choice.

[girly]

You always have a choice, always.

To blame religion as a reason you HAVE to do it is ridiculous. Religion is not an excuse to not research and make a decision for yourself.

There are many Jewish families who are now not RIC their children.

Don't say you don't have a choice, cause everyone has a choice.

I cant go against it. Thats worse. If you had a religion you would understand thats you have to sacrifice/allow many things.
Im Muslim and have many rights as a mother/woman but this is different. Its considered a cleaner option for the boy.

[mybabyandew]

i got my baby boy done when he was only about 3 months,i read up on it alot and i just didnt want any problems happening from not getting it done.here are so of the reasons why i decided to.

*Circumcised men may run a lower risk of getting sexually transmitted infections.

*Recent research has found that boys who have been circumcised are less likely to have a urinary infection in the first year of their life than boys who have not been circumcised. Circumcised infants have a risk of about 1 in 500 of getting a urinary tract infection.

*Circumcision prevents a very rare cancer of the penis. This cancer occurs in only about 1 in 100,000 uncircumcised men.

*Circumcision prevents some infections under the foreskin which may happen in infancy and later childhood.

[SassyMummy]

I'm not a Muslim, nor do I claim to know much in regards to what it involves being one.

I do know, however, that so long as you don't question and just sit by and allow things to just keep on going... nothing will change.

Maybe you don't want change, I don't know. If you do, however, you are in a country which will allow you to have the same rights as any other woman here... regardless of your religion. If you want say no, you are allowed to. Your husband and family might not like it... but you are an Australian Muslim... and have both the rights and responsibilities of each.

Religion is not a reason to follow blindly. If I saw something happening in my religion that I didn't agree with, I would no longer follow that religion, or question WHY I had to certain things to be a part of that religion. You can still believe in a higher being without following the rules and regulations of an organised religion. There's nothing to say you have to belong to a religious organisation and follow their teachings to believe. :)

[AM]

I cant go against it. Thats worse. If you had a religion you would understand thats you have to sacrifice/allow many things.
Im Muslim and have many rights as a mother/woman but this is different. Its considered a cleaner option for the boy.

My heart breaks reading your words.

[JustJettAndMum]

I didnt say the whole penis was useless. Just that pointless skin on the end. Seriously you and everyone else knows very well its has no use. Its just there to do nothing.

I have no idea why you would think its 'pointless'... lol... I think the bottom of the earlobe where they peirce is pointless, But you wouldnt go chopping that off! OUCH!


Can you just tell me what you and others think is its purpose.
I would think it would be to protect the peehole ? Is that right?

This responce is AWESOME! :yelclap:.... >>>

A foreskin can protect the head of the penis. This is full of nerve endings. It's much like the male form of a clitoris.

Women have clitoral hoods. This protects the clitoris, and prevents it from being stimulated constantly.

Imagine if your clitoris was being rubbed all day long. Eventually, it would lose it's sensitivity and your ability to orgasm as a result of clitoral stimulation would lessen as a result.

The same goes for the head of the penis. When it's exposed, the sensitivity can lessen and therefore cause sex to be less pleasurable than it would have been if he had the protection of the foreskin.

Fantastic Sassy!!! :smiliedance:

[Roopee]

i got my baby boy done when he was only about 3 months,i read up on it alot and i just didnt want any problems happening from not getting it done.here are so of the reasons why i decided to.

*Circumcised men may run a lower risk of getting sexually transmitted infections.

*Recent research has found that boys who have been circumcised are less likely to have a urinary infection in the first year of their life than boys who have not been circumcised. Circumcised infants have a risk of about 1 in 500 of getting a urinary tract infection.

*Circumcision prevents a very rare cancer of the penis. This cancer occurs in only about 1 in 100,000 uncircumcised men.

*Circumcision prevents some infections under the foreskin which may happen in infancy and later childhood.

I bolded the relevant bits in your post sorry (dont know how to multi-quote the same post)

Not one of these arguments offer a guarantee. Not one.

The penile cancer you referred to- so if it occurs in 1 in 100,000 uncirc'd men that means that 99,000 men out of 100,000 wont get it. Those odds are good- I'm pretty sure the breast cancer stats are worse than that?

I'm not picking on you- I'm just showing people how a non-circ'er may see your post.

[FishFace]

I cant go against it. Thats worse. If you had a religion you would understand thats you have to sacrifice/allow many things.
Im Muslim and have many rights as a mother/woman but this is different. Its considered a cleaner option for the boy.

Thats really sad honey.
I have a religion so to speak.
I used to follow it blindly till one day I said NO MORE.
If anythign it brought me closer to God ( in my case).
Religion should not be something you have to follow blindly.

Spirituality with your own beliefs and rights is way more beautiful.

I hope you can discuss this with your other half. It doesnt have to happen just because religion says so.

[my_lot]

Shiraaa- It sounds like your son will be raised in the religion so its best that he is circd. Imagine being the only one with the skin and no ceremony.

Imagine his future wifes shock that he is not a real man!

I also think 6-7 is a good age as they can understand the whole reason for it being done and know there is good coming from the pain.

He may also really want it done. This is a fact anti-circs dont even consider! These boys want to be the same as every other boy his age, like his father. In this case it makes them feel good, feel like a man and is an important part of their religion.

[NibbleCurlynBub]

Some people are anti-circ after circing their baby and changing their mind.

Also, for the record.. I don't believe that a religion is right for that individual person if it means they are forced to do something to their child that they think is wrong.

[my_lot]

yes, of course. I agree with that too. and think this is the same for both parents not just the mother...

[Fuchsia!]

He may also really want it done. This is a fact anti-circs dont even consider! These boys want to be the same as every other boy his age, like his father. In this case it makes them feel good, feel like a man and is an important part of their religion.


yes thats very true and at least he will and can decide for himslef :) Rather then someone take that choice away

[Phyllis Stein]

Personally, I don't think religion or culture overrides our personal responsibility for our actions.

[Milliner]

:eek: I can not believe some of the words I am reading in this thread. :eek: I'm just gob smacked! It really sounds very naive to me.

Of course you need to research and educate yourself. You can’t just make a decision that will alter another human beings body for EVER just because, without looking into it whatsoever.

Where do you draw the line? Oh, religion made me do it. :no:

[bunintheoven12]

No matter what argument/excuse/reasons people use to have this procedure inflicted on their sons is invalid as far as I'm concerned. The bottom line is (and what can't be argued against) is that no one has the right to do this to another human being without their consent. You take away the child's right to choose what happens to its body.

The procedure should be against the law but I can't see it ever happening because it all gets too messy when people start throwing in religion as a valid reason for doing it.

It makes me sick that a mother could do this to her precious son.[/COLOR][/FONT]

[FishFace]

Personally, I don't think religion or culture overrides our personal responsibility for our actions.


I agree 100%

There is a certain point where common sense has to come in and say NO ...this is isnt right.

It like when a child says they did something just cause everyone else did..

You are not everyone else. You have the ability to think for yourself.

[bunintheoven12]

It is part of our responsibility as a parent to make the right decisions for our children while they are too young to make them by themselves. I've read on this forum that circ under 6 months of age is much less painful and less stressful for the child, and to be honest I don't know many 6 month olds capable of making that decision.

You choose what your child eats, wears etc, right? And you make the best decision for your child, based on your knowledge and experience. The decision to circ or not to circ is just the same.

......so let me get this comment straight....are you basing your previous comments on parents against circumcision and calling them narrow-minded on the comments you've read on this website??? If you're going to go off the fact that some pro cirs make themselves feel better by believing that if their baby is under the age of six months it won't hurt as much and is less stressful then I suggest you seek out actual medical research before coming to a conclusion based on other people's opinions and not facts.

And I wonder why it's so necessary that you think this decision be made when the child is six months or under. Why can't the decision be made when the child has a say and the right to choose.

And to set the record straight....I think a lot of people against circumcision have no problems with it when their sons are old enough to say they want it done and would give them their full support.

Honestly, what sort of responses did you really expect to receive??? It is afterall an anti-circumcision section.

[bunintheoven12]

In your opinion, an opinion not shared by the vast majority of health care professionals and organisations throughout the civilised world. A opinion, in fact, rejected by such bodies.



And the FACT of the matter is that women will experience problems with their reproductive organs. They will more than likely get UTIs (more often than men, actually), thrush, yeast infections and all manner of things. We don't treat those with a preventative approach and chop bits off a new born girl, either.



Of course not. The penis doesn't lose all feeling but the sensation is diminished - we know this as fact because the nerve endings on the foreskin are lost. Moreover, the sensitive penis is left exposed and is effectively callused as it's protectional device (the foreskin - that's it's purpose, to protect the sensitive glans) is lost. It's like having soft fingers or a seamstresses fingers, calloused and hardened by exposure and use.



Easy: empathy. I may not have a penis but I do have a clitoris and it's hood, thank goodness all of it in tact. Just as I would hate to have had my parents remove those at some early and arbitrary age, I assume my son would hate to lose parts of his body simply because I thought he should. It's his penis. If he so decides to get circumcised at a an age where he can make the medical decision to do so, that's his choice and his right.

Just like it isn't my right to tattoo things onto his body to ward off evil spirits, it's not my right to chop bits off to protect him from dangers that are not statistically significant and certainly not significant enough to perform body altering surgery before just cause.


:yelclap::yelclap::yelclap::yelclap:Thank you Beany, you've saved me the time having to respond

[bunintheoven12]

It seems circumsion is a very hot topic on bubhub.. I'm circumsizing my son only becoz it looks better than having a penis that looks like an ant eater. Oh and dh said its cleaner..


Oh how very educated your decision is......By the way, have you carefully read what the thread is actually asking?????

[bunintheoven12]

Well if you want to subject your precious newborn to a painful procedure just for cosmetic reasons, so be it. I loved my boys to much to do that to them. Bear in mind you are in the ANTI_ CIRCUMCISION thread..

Yes, I to loved my son too much to subject him to this procedure.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

Ok please do not see this as an attack, I'm genuinely interested in everyone's answers! :)

I was just wondering why so many people on the forum are anti-circumcision? Obviously, none of your children are circumcised, so why does it bother you so much that other people choose this for their children?


OH, and just for the record, I have a daughter and a bub on the way. If this bub is a boy we will not be circumcising, for the one reason that DH is not done and he sees no reason for it. BUT, having said that, that is his decision and I'm not for it nor against it, I see it as a decision each parent makes for their child, like birthing choices, immunisations etc.

So yeah, back to my original question - why does it bother you so much if other people choose this for their own children?

Thanks for all replies - any and all are welcome, but please keep it nice! :)

To answer the question- I am not agaisnt all circ, but RIC is a human rights violation IMO.

Removing part of a babies genatalia for no good reason (eg, RIC) is an outdated practice!

I have two nephews one was done and had some terrible irreversable complications from it, the other was not done and has had some infections, nothing that cant be treated with a little bit of cream:yes:.

My son is not done and so far has had no problems. My husband is done and also has no problems. We are a diverse lot. :laughing: So unless my son has some medical problems that absolutely require him to be circ'd then I wouldn't consider it.

[girly]

Shiraaa- It sounds like your son will be raised in the religion so its best that he is circd. Imagine being the only one with the skin and no ceremony.

Imagine his future wifes shock that he is not a real man!

I also think 6-7 is a good age as they can understand the whole reason for it being done and know there is good coming from the pain.

He may also really want it done. This is a fact anti-circs dont even consider! These boys want to be the same as every other boy his age, like his father. In this case it makes them feel good, feel like a man and is an important part of their religion.

I hope others read your post and take it into consideration that its not the worst thing in the world to circ their boys.
My husband & I are both Muslim & It is done at 6yo and the boy knows he's having a celebration to have it removed and wants (as you said to be just like other boys/dad/prophets). He knows it needs to be removed in order to become a man. If a family doesnt get it removed the son is definetely going to become a 'man' BUT gererally these families are not too religious, So its not too important to them.

Jesus was circumsised on the eighth day, & some christians dont circ. Its all up too the family and how strongly they are devoted to doing whats right and whats alway been done.

As for some parents saying "omg as if ide inflict unnecessary pain on my child" What about ear peircings they arent needed and we still hurt the child,

Im not just following religion, geez I dont even pray and I LOVEEEE bacon. :o, But this is what we as parents and he(son) will want it done aswell. :yes:

[Fuchsia!]

I hope others read your post and take it into consideration that its not the worst thing in the world to circ their boys.
My husband & I are both Muslim & It is done at 6yo and the boy knows he's having a celebration to have it removed and wants (as you said to be just like other boys/dad/prophets). He knows it needs to be removed in order to become a man. If a family doesnt get it removed the son is definetely going to become a 'man' BUT gererally these families are not too religious, So its not too important to them.

Jesus was circumsised on the eighth day, & some christians dont circ. Its all up too the family and how strongly they are devoted to doing whats right and whats alway been done.

As for some parents saying "omg as if ide inflict unnecessary pain on my child" What about ear peircings they arent needed and we still hurt the child,

Im not just following religion, geez I dont even pray and I LOVEEEE bacon. :o, But this is what we as parents and he(son) will want it done aswell. :yes:






Your post makes no sense to me. I dunno if its just me or what but you seem all over the place.

1st you say that it has to be done because its what you believe in and the devoted circ their sons and the ones that don't arent that devoted but then you go on to say that you don't even pray and you eat bacon :confused:

So to me that doesn't seem like you are that devoted to your faith at all.

And another Q when your child hits 6 and he says he doesn't want it done what will you do then?

[SassyMummy]

In regards to the ear-piercing comment, a lot of people will wait until their child is old enough to reach this decision themselves. My rule was that I was waiting until she asked.

She asked... and her father said no, not until she's 5. I'm not certain as to why, but he did, and so I'm respecting his wishes there, as it's not necessary anyway. It will only happen after she reaches 5 IF she asks.

I think being circed to "look like other boys" might have made more sense when our fathers were children. These days, it's harder to find doctors who will do it, and so the rate of RIC is dropping... not as many boys are being done, and so it will probably be quite normal to see both circed and uncirced penises.

I did ask my boyfriend about this the other day, and he said he never looked at his friends, and doesn't even know if his best friend is done or not. So, at least to him, it didn't seem to make a difference (he's circumcised btw).

Shiraaa - it's your choice to make, but be warned that your son MAY reach age 6 and might not want what you want. Or what you want him to want. You may have a battle on your hands, and he might not be as willing as you'd hope. I guess it might depend on the people he socialises with... if he attends school with boys who are not done, or not done at age 6 anyway, he might see it as less desirable than if he were surrounded only by Muslims who support it and celebrate it. Might just be something to think about... try as you might, you can never control the way your child thinks, or the things that come out of their mouths.

I think there are rude comments flying from both sides of the fence here, and I honestly don't see the need for it. I think some members can clearly see that I'm anti-RIC but so far I'm pretty sure I've managed to not offend anyone.

It is doable.

No need to let the "I love my child more because," lines leave your mouth... they're just rude and inconsiderate.

[Milliner]

At 6y/o, a boy is just that still a boy – not mature enough to make a life long, body altering decision.

[RedPanda]

I'm against it because I think RIC is unnecessary and cruel. I don't get why it's culturally acceptable for boys, but not for girls? If I had a girl, she'd be keeping everything, so why would I treat my boys any differently.

Also, if my husband asked for our sons to be circumcised to look like him, I'd worry about how secure he was within himself to require this. Much like if he said "Hey, let's dress the boys just like me".

But I am not someone who would question or lecture someone who had chosen to do this. If asked, I explain. If not asked, I don't.

[Pax]

Personally i believe a 6 year old boy would be 'running for it' like forrest gump if he knew he was going to have his pee pee chopped! ouch run little man run.. :laughing:

reminds me of this poem

A Bush Christening

A classic Australian poem by the famous poet A. B. "Banjo" Paterson from the early 1900s
On the outer Barcoo where the churches are few,
And men of religion are scanty,
On a road never cross'd 'cept by folk that are lost,
One Michael Magee had a shanty.
Now this Mike was the dad of a ten-year-old lad,
Plump, healthy, and stoutly conditioned;
He was strong as the best, but poor Mike had no rest
For the youngster had never been christened.
And his wife used to cry, "If the darlin' should die
Saint Peter would not recognise him."
But by luck he survived till a preacher arrived,
Who agreed straightaway to baptise him.
Now the artful young rogue, while they held their collogue,
With his ear to the keyhole was listenin',
And he muttered in fright while his features turned white,
"What the divil and all is this christenin'?"
He was none of your dolts, he had seen them brand colts,
And it seemed to his small understanding,
If the man in the frock made him one of the flock,
It must mean something very like branding.
So away with a rush he set off for the bush,
While the tears in his eyelids they glistened -
"'Tis outrageous," says he, "to brand youngsters like me,
I'll be dashed if I'll stop to be christened!"
Like a young native dog he ran into a log,
nd his father with language uncivil,
Never heeding the "praste" cried aloud in his haste,
"Come out and be christened, you divil!"
But he lay there as snug as a bug in a rug,
And his parents in vain might reprove him,
Till his reverence spoke (he was fond of a joke)

"I've a notion," says he, "that'll move him.
Poke a stick up the log, give the spalpeen a prog;
Poke him aisy - don't hurt him or maim him,
'Tis not long that he'll stand, I've the water at hand,
As he rushes out this end I'll name him.
"Here he comes, and for shame! ye've forgotten the name -
Is it Patsy or Michael or Dinnis?"
Here the youngster ran out, and the priest gave a shout -
Take your chance, anyhow, wid 'Maginnis'!"
As the howling young cub ran away to the scrub
Where he knew that pursuit would be risky,
The priest, as he fled, flung a flash at his head
That was labelled "Maginnis's Whisky!"
And Maginnis Magee has been made a J.P.,
And the one thing he hates more than sin is
To be asked by the folk who have heard of the joke,
How he came to be christened "Maginnis"!

[NibbleCurlynBub]

Your post makes no sense to me. I dunno if its just me or what but you seem all over the place.

1st you say that it has to be done because its what you believe in and the devoted circ their sons and the ones that don't arent that devoted but then you go on to say that you don't even pray and you eat bacon :confused:

So to me that doesn't seem like you are that devoted to your faith at all.

And another Q when your child hits 6 and he says he doesn't want it done what will you do then?
:iagree: :confused:

[girly]

And another Q when your child hits 6 and he says he doesn't want it done what will you do then?

That could not happen. He will be sharing the experience with other boys, If he doesnt...say no boys at his age are getting it done yet then he will be on his own. He will still want it, too be like his dad. But even being as young as six he will know that its what happens to boys to become men.

BUT, if he doesnt want it done then his father will sort it out.



If he were surrounded only by Muslims who support it and celebrate it. Might just be something to think about..

My husband doesnt seem to fazed as to what school out children go to but I AM definetly going to send them to Islamic Public/High, Tradition is dropping and its not good. I want them to understand what their religion means.

[Milliner]

BUT, if he doesnt want it done then his father will sort it out.




Oh my, what a horrifying attitude to have.


I just cannot get over the fact that people are so wrapped up in their own beliefs that they forget about the rights of a defenceless child. It extremely distressing.

[Jakois]

Oh my, what a horrifying attitude to have.


I just cannot get over the fact that people are so wrapped up in their own beliefs that they forget about the rights of a defenceless child. It extremely distressing.

I know. It bugs me as well:banghead:.

[Fuchsia!]

Personally i believe a 6 year old boy would be 'running for it' like forrest gump if he knew he was going to have his pee pee chopped! ouch run little man run.. :laughing:


Wouldn't that be even more the reason to not do it?

Is that why you get it done when they are babies so they can't back out when they are old enough to understand?

Lets inflict on a baby before they can have a say?


That could not happen. He will be sharing the experience with other boys, If he doesnt...say no boys at his age are getting it done yet then he will be on his own. He will still want it, too be like his dad. But even being as young as six he will know that its what happens to boys to become men.

BUT, if he doesnt want it done then his father will sort it out.



My husband doesnt seem to fazed as to what school out children go to but I AM definetly going to send them to Islamic Public/High, Tradition is dropping and its not good. I want them to understand what their religion means.

How can you garuntee that he will want it done? Children have minds of their own too.

I think its really sad that you are instilling in him that he has to be circ to be a man.

It takes far more to be a man then a piece of foreskin.

[NibbleCurlynBub]

BUT, if he doesnt want it done then his father will sort it out.
How?

[Pax]

Wouldn't that be even more the reason to not do it?

Is that why you get it done when they are babies so they can't back out when they are old enough to understand?

Lets inflict on a baby before they can have a say?



How can you garuntee that he will want it done? Children have minds of their own too.

I think its really sad that you are instilling in him that he has to be circ to be a man.

It takes far more to be a man then a piece of foreskin.


To be honest with you I dont have a problem with parents making life choices for their children, that is what we are supposed to do!

I think society has lost the plot with all this leftist, politically correct, mushy attitudes that spring up in every hard choice.

when some of you say i love my kid too much to do it.. i can say You are just too weak to make the hard choices... and a big part of parental love is to make choices for a child that they may not want ..

There is NOTHING wrong with making life changing choices for your child! its NORMAL..

Society has become way too soft.

I have had to make life or death decisions for my children.. LITERALLY!! on their death bed.. till you have experienced something like that i guess you will never understand how incredibly petty it is to be so emotional over circumcision.

PS>>> my daughter survived.

[Fuchsia!]

so if you had a girl would you get her circ'd?

[Pax]

so if you had a girl would you get her circ'd?


I didnt have my son circ'd so no i wouldnt have my daughters done..

but i certainly support parents that wish to circ their boys.

i do not support female circumision NO...

I have read many stories of men that later in life when given the choice opt for circumision I am yet to read about any woman that would choose to have it done.

that speaks volumes to me.

[girly]

How?

Because its a Man/Boy thing. Its something boys have with their father/uncles/grandfathers. Its just done, I cant give you anymore explainations as to why its so simply chosen for our boys.


so if you had a girl would you get her circ'd?

No we dont do that, Only the boy.

[Milliner]

Have you not heard of woman choosing to have a labioplasty?

[NibbleCurlynBub]

Because its a Man/Boy thing. Its something boys have with their father/uncles/grandfathers. Its just done, I cant give you anymore explainations as to why its so simply chosen for our boys.
No.. I meant how would his father 'deal with it' if he didn't want to get it done?

[girly]

i do not support female circumision NO...

Im the same, This is NOT good.

Boys get circumsised to be clean, be like their dad, maybe medical reason.
But a female, the family pretty much chose to have it gone for ONE reason only...:no:Its discusting.

[Fuchsia!]

I didnt have my son circ'd so no i wouldnt have my daughters done..

but i certainly support parents that wish to circ their boys.

i do not support female circumision NO...

I have read many stories of men that later in life when given the choice opt for circumision I am yet to read about any woman that would choose to have it done.

that speaks volumes to me.
You have me intriuged now. How come you don't support Female RIC?

[my_lot]

Shiraaa- Dont worry about your son not wanting it done at 6. If he is going to a islamic school, his friends will be getting it done too and he will be excited.

I do think its a bit odd when children in a catholic school go through their sacrements and their parents are not overly into the religion and some not even catholic. It will be nice if you can get more involved in the religion so your son sees you and his dad as his role models and learns from you two and not just the school.

I asked my son at 6 if he wanted to be circd and he said NOOOOO way! :p

Every other male in my family is circd and was done about 10 but some as newborns or 6 years old.

My son hasnt been exposed to the religion so it doesnt mean anything to him. If he had then i would say as a family we would celebrate this and he would see we are all happy and celebrate too. Ive not known any ,bar my son, to say NOooo way!

[girly]

No.. I meant how would his father 'deal with it' if he didn't want to get it done?

I didnt explain its well enough, sorry.

Ok, Like its looked upon as a male thing. Something boys share with men. The boy wants to grow to be just like the dad and be 'clean', even if they are very religious be like a prophet. Its something that happens to boys, and The boy grows up knowing its the right thing to do if they are Muslim.

[NibbleCurlynBub]

Uh huh..

But what would his father do if he didn't want it done?

[girly]

Uh huh..

But what would his father do if he didn't want it done?

Talk to him, maybe with his grandfatehr as well, Tell him that they have it done and its the right thing to do. Its needed to be off if he wants to ever be 'clean'. Its sounds harsh but if you were Muslim you'd see that this is normal:).

[Pax]

Have you not heard of woman choosing to have a labioplasty?

Nope does that entail chopping off her clit?:(

[Pax]

OH wow now i am starting to feel like the ladies on here that get emotional over male circumcision..

i am actually having a physical reaction to the thought of doing this to girls..

the only reason for doing so is to give more sexual pleasure to their men when they grow up..

how on earth can anyone justify the modification of the female genitals to pleasure a man..

OH wow i gotta :barf:

Sorry but that just dont sit right with me.....

[NibbleCurlynBub]

How does what is on the OUTSIDE affect the man's level of pleasure anyway? :confused:

[Pax]

How does what is on the OUTSIDE affect the man's level of pleasure anyway? :confused:


Apparently some women have large clit's that affect men, it makes them feel they are having sex with a man, apparently they find it unfeminine!

I asked my hubby about this, with his limited knowledge of women LOL but he said his first wife had a very large clit and it did feel weird... but he said that he loved her and it made no difference.

I didnt even know clits come in different sizes..

[my_lot]

Ok so its taking away from one to give more pleasure to the other?

Then isnt that a bit like all the women who say they prefer a circd male for a partner?

[my_lot]

Apparently some women have large clit's that affect men, it makes them feel they are having sex with a man, apparently they find it unfeminine!


This is a medical condition.

[girly]

I know that when a women gets circumsied they remove the Clit alltogether.

So she never has pleasue. Thats the worst part about it.
They arent making her give MORE pleasure to men, they are stripping her of having some of her own. Its WRONG either way.

[DQ]

Closed for cleaning