to smack or not to smack

[Belinda1000]

hi everyone

i have an almost 10 month DD who has started to have litle tantrums, crying and kicking legs if doesnt get her own way.

as it is impossible to reason with a child of this age how did you deal with these tantrums as i do not want them to escalate into something bigger.

at what age did u start smacking your child? if you are not a smacker what works for you?

would be very interested in what works for you

thanks,belinda

[the_queen]

I'm not a smacker.
Having said that, I have smacked Vallerie a few times in her life, but it was certainly not appropriate nor was it warranted. It was completely to do with my stress levels, my lack of control at that point in time, and my loss of temper. She was 2.5 yrs old the first time I smacked her.

I consider smacking babies to be child abuse.

Smacking does not "cure" temper tantrums. Smacking does not cure anything - it teaches children that it's ok to hit someone as long as they are smaller and weaker than you are.

I got smacked as a kid - it taught me not to get caught doing the wrong thing. I still did the wrong thing, I just learnt to lie and sneak around better.


At 10 months old, this behaviour is perfectly normal. The best way for you to deal with it is to model appropriate behaviour, be consistent with the boundaries, and never give in to the tantrum. Teach her what behaviour she can use to get what she wants, ie Vallerie doesn't get what she wants when she whinges or moans, but if she asks nicely with polite asking words then she knows she's much more likely to get what she wants.

[sopolicha]

I am a reformed smacker. I only smacked my kids a couple of times, but after each time I was wracked with guilt. I vowed to try and never smack again.

I don't know what you can do with a 10 month old. Tell them in a stern voice they are naughty and that you don't want them to continue with what they are doing. :confused:

I am sure others on here will have better ideas. I use the bathroom as a place for time out.

[Jamily]

Hi Belinda

I am having the same problem as you - Emily is almost 10 months and is certainly developing a mind of her own. In some ways its wonderful to see :eek:

I have started ignoring her when she goes bananas - if I am putting her in the stroller for e.g. I just carry on. If she objects to having something taken off her I say 'no' firmly and explain why. I know she doesn't understand what I am saying (other than the 'no' I guess) but I am trying to establish the habit of explaining things to her. It will be many years before she understands consequences, but perhaps by explaining them at a young age it will help develop those skills? I also think it is more 'respectful' to her, rather than just ordering her around. Silly I know.

Anyway, so far it seems to be working. The crying and kicking seems to last much less time and she seems to accept that her reactions are getting no reaction. I am not sure how long it will last, but I am hoping that by being consistent and calm we'll get there.

Good luck

:)

[shed]

When my niece was 11 months old she bit me really hard. I immediately smacked her quite hard on the hand.

I had a complete meltdown afterwards and didn't get over it for hours. I was convinced I had turned into one of my parents and couldn't stop crying.

I'm still not over actually, and she is seven years old now, so I dare say I won't be a smacker.

Although a swift slap on the legs of a cheeky eight or ten year old is different than smacking a little bubby I suppose.

So maybe wait a bit longer - eight or ten years ought to do it!! And then just the once!!

[mitchell's mummy]

i know what u all mean i'm going through the same thing with my 2 year old son at the moment! i dont like the thought of smaking him as i didnt like it when i was little, so we tried doing the whole time out thing and that wasnt working as he would get up and run off! after that we decided to take his toys off him and that was working for a little while and now we dont know what to do! we have smaked him a couple of times and all he does is laugh at u! so im really at a lose
if anyone has any ideas let me know

[rynosmum]

I always thought smacking was the way to go, until I had DS.

We have never smacked him, purely because we've never had a reason to. As a baby, his crying was because he needed something. As he got older, he would touch things he shouldn't because of curiosity (or because we'd left things where we shouldn't). We he started tantys, it was generally because he was frustrated - he wanted to do something that we wouldn't let him do or his growing body wouldn't yet allow him to do. Sometimes he has tantys because we have let him get overtired. None of this is because he is being deliberately naughty.

I talk to him a lot. I've always said 'No touching, not for babies' if he touches something he shouldn't. If he has a tanty, I try and learn how I can avoid it next time and how I can ensure that he doesn't get frustrated in a situation.

He's a good boy and at 22 months continually says please and thank you, plus excuse me (too cute). I never thought I'd admit it but treating your child with respect (whilst still maintaining your position as their parent) is a real winner !:D

[razzle]

Absolutely, positiviely agree with Rynosmum. We do exactly the same.

as it is impossible to reason with a child of this age how did you deal with these tantrums as i do not want them to escalate into something bigger.
If you can't possibly reason with a child then how is he going to understand what a smack means?

[Foxy]

I also agree 100% with Rynosmum.

I have never smacked and I never will, IMO smacking says more about the parent than the child. We were smacked as kids and I cannot remember anything that I did that was naughty - only the smacks - so how do we possibly learn from this type of punishment.

So far, I have been pretty lucky with my DS, only a few incidents, but I am using this time to set the precedents of how things will be.

Using a stern voice and distraction are the most effective means for this age group.

[Tea Lady]

I'd recommend getting some discipline books out of the library and getting some ideas from them. I agree that there's not heaps you can do with a 10 month old (it's such a frustrating stage isn't it?) but at least reading the books gives you ideas about how to discipline well in the future, so you aren't so worried that you're raising a brat - worked for me anyway! :)

[DoulaFelicity]

I would no more smack my 10 month old son now than I would have when he was 10 days old. He's a baby, he's tiny, fragile, undeveloped, and wouldn't understand why his beloved Mummy, his protector, has suddenly turned violent towards him. It would just frighten, sadden, bewilder and hurt him. :( It breaks my heart to think of people smacking babies; as the_queen said, I believe it's child abuse. I also believe that treating a child in a manner you wouldn't want them to mimic is illogical - ie: smacking a child for kicking, etc. It doesn't make sense to me - it must make even less sense to a child! :eek:

At this age, they are developing at a phenomenal rate. Their brains are working overtime, their bodies are growing; they pick up new things every day! This is wondrous, but it is also frustrating, tiring, scary, confusing and irritating for the baby. They need to express that, and it's ok for them to do so from time to time (provided they don't hurt anyone else, or themselves, in the process) - just like it's ok for adults to do the same. They are also slowly beginning to develop their personality and sense of self; they want to assert themselves on the huge world that surrounds them, but they don't know how. So they yell and kick. It's a positive thing; it shows they are developing healthily. It will pass, as all things associated with babyhood do. In the interim, maintaining a calm, patient manner towards the baby, and being repetitive in enforcing the message you wish to convey (ie: "gentle, gentle, gentle" followed by showing the baby how to gently stroke you rather than kicking you) will help both of you get through it. Your baby won't learn overnight how to "behave", but demonstrating a gentle example and repeating the message will eventually get it across. :)

Also please remember that there is no such thing as a "naughty" baby. They have no concept of behaviour, or the expectations and needs of those around them; therefore it is impossible for them to wilfully be "bad". This label is more about projecting our own frustrations and issues onto the baby than it is about the actions of the child.

[Ana Gram]

We are smackers and have no problem admiting that. We didn't start smacking for bad behaviour until DD was a bit more vocal and had more understanding, so after 12 months. At 10 months the only thing you can really do is get out of range of kicking feet because that really hurts and if you need a break and can't handle it, pop the baby in the cot and go to another room to calm down.

[SassyMummy]

Chanel's only 8.5 months so she doesn't get smacked - but I do slap her on the hand when she tries to touch something she shouldn't. I warn her first with a "no...don't touch the drawer...you'll get your finger stuck..." etc etc. (We can't put in drawer safety things...we rent and the owners won't let us). Then, she gets a slap if she keeps doing it. It's not even a slap really...it's more of a very soft pat...lol...but she acts like I'm chopping her fingers off. I think she's just trying the guilt-trip thing on me more than anything.

I wouldn't SMACK your child for having a tantrum...just ignore him/her. I ignore Chanel...or if she keeps going, I give her a cuddle, move her and give her a toy to distract her for a bit.

[the_queen]

Chanel's only 8.5 months ............ I think she's just trying the guilt-trip thing on me more than anything.



She's too young to be manipulating your emotions. If she howls when you "tap" her on the hand, it's because she doesn't understand why her mummy is hurting her.

[MamaSage]

I would not hit an animal. I would not hit a child, esp a baby. The way I see it, hitting a child just teaches them that it is acceptable to hit others.

[melbryan]

Our child has thrown tantrums very young. Smacking though doesm't usually stop the behaviour. Naughty corner works better and more eating and sleeping tends to keep him in a better mood. I walked into a community nurse ( MOnday) and it was bald man nurse my son (2) went absolutely hysterical, I had to carry him with him screaming in my ear. The nurse said what's wrong with him and I didn't want to say 'he hates bald men' and I quietly left not asking too much I was very embarrassed.When we walked out of there he stopped. He had a comment 'this is your first isn't it?'. I got so annoyed. My son is very active and determined to do what he want's, he never likes being told no. When he is sick or teething he is very non compliant I have to let him whinge it absolutely drives me in sane, he will be the son who I have to work very very hard with but I have come to the conclusion. That is just his personality, deal with it!!!!!
Frustrated MUM,
Mel 29

[DoulaFelicity]

Further to the smacking a baby/child issue, some links that might be helpful to the OP in considering whether to use physical force as a method of discipline:-

The Royal Australian College of Paediatrician's stance on physical force (from the summit on Child Abuse, 2004): http://www.racp.edu.au/hpu/paed/punishment/index.htm


The Paediatrics & Child Health Division believes that the use of force, either physical force and/or psychological threats, is an ineffective and unhelpful method of punishment and discipline of children.

Better Health Channel fact sheet on stressful parenting: http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Parenting_can_be_stressful?open


Physical punishment is dangerous
Some parents believe that physical discipline, such as smacking, is for the child's own good. Other parents, when angry or stressed, may lash out at their child. Children are dependent on their parents for love and care, and never deserve to be hit or physically abused. Young children, such as those less than 12 months of age, don't have the intellectual maturity to understand discipline of any kind. Hitting or smacking will only frighten a young child, or cause serious and permanent injuries. Children also learn by example. By using physical discipline, you are teaching the child to resolve conflict with violence. Your child can only learn self-control and respect for others if you show them how it's done.


Originally Posted by SassyMummy
Chanel's only 8.5 months ............ I think she's just trying the guilt-trip thing on me more than anything.

Again, I have to agree with the_queen; a child of 8.5 months old doesn't even understand communication fully, doesn't have fully developed motor skills, and certainly doesn't grasp adult concepts such as guilt or manipulation, which are not survival instincts or base functions, but rather complex, developed and conditioned psychological and emotional behaviours. We have to remember that a baby is not just a small adult; they are completely different to us. Their brains are not yet developed, and they think, act and feel differently to adults. It can be difficult to step outside our own projections and perceptions and look at the situation for what it is, but it is imperative that we do so.

[xkwzit]

Hi All

I've finally decided to add my 2 cents

We don't smack. I hadn't really made up my mind and slapped at DD1 while she was kicking me on the change table and I felt horrible after wards.

The major reason is very simple and has not alot to do with child psychology or the question of whether violence is a useful teaching tool (these may also be really good reasons, but I have not looked into them at all).

I simply like the very high moral ground that it gives you. This givens me more confidence in my parenting style and the guts to really stick to our rules. When DDs slap at each other, I say "we don't hit ppl in this house". I also know that DD2 (who has been a hitter since babyhood) did not learn this undesirable behaviour from my husband or I (she's had the full benefit of our non-smacking policy). I believe there are better ways to discipline and I will have to keep finding them as my kids grow (I'm not sure how well sending them to their room will work when DDs are 13, but it works a treat for now :thumbsup: ).

Cheers

[vespertine]

I agree with Queenie and Carlia. I think smacking in abuse, and noone has the right to inflict physical harm on another person, whether that person be a baby, child or adult. How confusing must it be, to smack, then to discourage violence? Babies do not know HOW to manipulate... so when they cry, or are upset, they are expressing their feelings. Crying is their way of communication. It's not to manipulate!

Removing the child from a dangerous situation, and giving a simple, firm yet gentle explaination should suffice. Children go through periods of stuggling to socialise or communicate, and they need our patience! They're finding their way in a very complex world, and it can be overwhelming and confusing. Slowly with time they develop independence and a better understanding of what is acceptable behaviour in society... but until then, we need to help them by being gentle and explaining in a way they will understand WHY it's not appropriate. Also using positive language, such as 'Please be gentle'.

We need to model the right behaviour, and treat our children the way we expect them to treat others... which doesnt include hitting.

[poshBecks]

I have to admit, Connor gets a smack when he is deliberately doing something I asked him not to do. Usually though a firm voice & distraction works best, though sometimes he needs discipline. After reading this thread, I am beginning to have second thoughts. I dont feel guilty at all for smacking him ( as I would never hit him hard enough to really hurt him, just enough to shock him i spose), but you are right what message am I sending him? I think this is something I will discuss with my hubby tonight.
Also, I cant remember who said it, but I got smacked too as a kid & you are right. I just became craftier at avoiding getting caught. ( I once stuffed socks in my undies :laughing: ) So thankyou for enlightening me some.

[Tea Lady]

Just for the record, I was smacked as a child, but I think my parents really thought it through well and I did learn alot from it. Importantly they decided never to smack in anger or as a last resort (which I think can mean that people lash out in frustration) and I think that made a big difference.

I know many people have had really bad experiences with it, and I'm not trying to devalue those but I just thought I'd offer a slightly different perspective.

I firmly believe that ANY form of discipline can be abused and it's up to us as parents to think carefully about how we discipline our children so that we use whatever discipline tools we choose constructively and fairly.

I don't believe that just deciding not to smack is going to mean that you don't harm your children (I"m thinking for eg of people who end up saying horrible things to their children which the child can never forget) and I don't think that deciding to smack your child in certain situations will necessarily mean that you do harm them. I think it's more about your attitude to your child and how well you control your own frustrations than which actual method you use.

I'm just throwing this in as food for thought. :)

[DoulaFelicity]

One major thing that I believe causes a lot of confusion is the misunderstanding and/or misuse of the concept "discipline". Discipline is not punishment (although the literal definition, sadly, includes "using punishment to gain control and obedience" as a possible meaning of the word :crying: ), nor is it shaming or the use of physical force. Discipline is to lead or educate by practice and example, with the aim of instilling knowledge, positive traits and valuable abilities in an individual. Since physical force has been proven to be ineffective and harmful, it is not discipline. It is punishment without logic or positive longterm outcome (after all, as parents, don't we seek not only to gain what we want from our child, ie: cessation of an external behaviour that we don't like - but also to meet the needs of the child, both now and in their future adult life, and foster their longterm mental, emotional and physical health?).

This doesn't mean "permissive parenting", which is a practice I disagree with as much as smacking, because it also does not serve the best interests of the child. It simply means true discipline, rather than punishment to gain control and obtain obedience.

I do believe that having been smacked as a child (I certainly was :( ), it becomes a conditioned response as parents that can be difficult to reject. I know that in moments of extreme frustration or anger, I often find myself grappling with the automatic urge to smack my child, despite my strong personal convictions against it.

[pumpkin]

i am a parent who smacks when there is the absolute need for it. as in if they are in imminent danger (my nearly 4 year old was at the large shops with me 2 weeks ago and she was not listenening to anything i had to say bribes nothing she decided to run out on the busy carpark road area in front of cars, luckily i grabbed her just before she got to the next lane or she would have been hit by a car, so in this situation i did smack her on the bum she knew exactly what it was for. and if i am in that situation again i will definately smack as i would rather her have a sore butt then be hit and injured or even killed by a car. needless to say she now holds my hand as she knows if she runs across the road again she will get a smack.)

if they are naughty at home they are generally sent to a corner and told to stand there for 5 mins if they muck around in the corner they stand there longer. if they blatantly do not listen to instruction as in they keep going overboard on the naughty side of things after being told 5 or 6 times to not do something and they still do it then yes they will get a tap on the butt, which then does make them do what they are supposed to. our kids have no fear about being smacked as it is not fear or violence based but for their best interest and i was smacked as a child and it didnt do me any harm i learnt to behave well with the odd smack, my poor other half however had been smacked with the belt,jug cord, etc and (i think that was overboard) yet he has no ill effects from it (he learnt obviously lol not to do what he had done as he didnt want the cord again iykwim.)

[caitsmum]

I firmly believe that ANY form of discipline can be abused and it's up to us as parents to think carefully about how we discipline our children so that we use whatever discipline tools we choose constructively and fairly.

I don't believe that just deciding not to smack is going to mean that you don't harm your children (I"m thinking for eg of people who end up saying horrible things to their children which the child can never forget) and I don't think that deciding to smack your child in certain situations will necessarily mean that you do harm them. I think it's more about your attitude to your child and how well you control your own frustrations than which actual method you use.

Very well said.

Maybe discipline is something that needs to be thought about and discussed with new parents right from the start. At least this way when the tantrums start there would be a greater understanding of why the behaviour is occuring and positive ways of dealing with it.

[Maghan]

Consequences. Even at 10 months it works, as long as it is logical and age appropriate... I've smacked a few times in my life, but the longer lasting impressions made have been without that. My DS (5) has a speech and language disorder (so he didn't understand much in the early days), but time out, quiet time, planned ignoring and straight out leaving somewhere when his behaviour was inappropriate really worked.

There have been many a time when I've had a trolley-load of groceries and walked out the store because of the bad behaviour or nagging.

You need to take the short term pain to let them know you are serious.

[katesmum]

Appreciating that I will probably be hailed down, I just couldnt read anymore on this post without adding my 2 cents in.

I can't even remember who posted the original question because so many righteous (read superior) parents have given the poor lady a firm talking to.

I agree with all the abuse stuff blah blah blah but surely this is not the type of response that helps a mother who isnt sure how to deal with their childs behaviour.

I think less judging and more support would be appropriate...... In the calm light of day, we all know what we should do but in the moment it can be hard to maintain logic etc so lets give up some of the high moral ground stuff and be the support network that fellow mums are looking for. :kiss:

[DoulaFelicity]

I agree with all the abuse stuff blah blah blah but surely this is not the type of response that helps a mother who isnt sure how to deal with their childs behaviour.

I think these are the type of responses that do exactly that. If someone isn't sure how to deal with an issue relating to their child, and differing alternatives are offered, with information, evidence, and opinions included to explain those options indepth, isn't that exactly what you'd want? Rather than blind support (ie: "Whatever you do is fine" or "Yes, sure, go ahead and smack" - and nothing else to the contrary), and nothing new being offered, and/or no one challenging you to think outside the square (irrespective of whether or not you go on to think about it and reject the alternatives anyway). I know when I post a question, I do so wanting to be challenged to think laterally, provided with information, and offered the entire spectrum of opinion for me to consider and investigate.

Nobody has judged anybody here. Everyone has offered their own beliefs, opinions, and information that they have access to. In a potentially volatile topic, differing opinions have managed to coexist thus far without conflict. I don't think your namecalling is necessary or productive.

[xkwzit]

Just to clarify, this is the OP:


hi everyone

i have an almost 10 month DD who has started to have litle tantrums, crying and kicking legs if doesnt get her own way.

as it is impossible to reason with a child of this age how did you deal with these tantrums as i do not want them to escalate into something bigger.

at what age did u start smacking your child? if you are not a smacker what works for you?

would be very interested in what works for you

thanks,belinda

Belinda asked for ppl to let her know what worked for them. I think everyone has done a great job at provided her with their own views without attacking others. Please lets keep to the original topic: provide your own information and experiences without attacking those provided by others.

Cheers

[logan's mum]

I have an 11 month old and at this stage I am definitely anti-smacking. I just can't see the logic in it - not sure how I could teach him that it is wrong to resort to violence when you don't get your own way if I smacked him when he did something I didn't want him to...

Thinking back to my childhood, what really frustrated me was being told no or that I couldn't do something without being given a reason. I try to always explain to Logan why I don't want him to do something even at this young age. This way I hope that I am creating a habbit in myself.

If the thing he is doing/touching is dangerous or he will not stop doing it I remove him from the object or situation, and again explain why. I also try to use distraction to a certain degree - eg offer another toy if he is upset about a toy that he wants and someone else has. I liked the idea of following through with "threats" to show you are serious like the mum who said she has left a full load of shopping in the supermarket. Frustrating yes, but short term pain for long term gain. Even if you just step outside for a moment until the situation calms down.

As for tannies, we have had some beauties already. I generally ignore them and continue with what it was we were doing and of course explain why. Or again use the distraction technique (food generally works, lol).

I am not sure what I think about time out yet :confused: , will have to think this one through a bit. I wonder if it might teach that they won't be loved/included unless they conform to society - how will this effect their resistance to things like peer pressure when they are older? Just a thought, like I said not sure of my stance on this one yet. Am wondering if I prefer the "stand and think" approach where they are still removed from the activity but are asked to think about why they were removed until they can explain it to me along with how they think they could approach the situation differently. Obviously we are talking about an older child here. Who knows, maybe it's just the same as the time out method...

Most importantly I believe in lead by example. :thumbsup:

[logan's mum]

Lay down and mimmick them - I love that, how cute!! Gonna have to try it!:laughing:

[suemp]

i am a smacker, in fact every one i know with kids is a smacker that does not mean we "abuse " our kids. i also use time out, taking toys away, etc etc wat eva i feel fits the crime. my son still loves me to death, as i him,
my brother is a primary teacher and so many kids have no discipline at home they grow up to run wild. (not saying every child not smacked is not disciplined in another way) but as i said i do not "abuse " my son. i dont leave bruises or am i"violent" but id prefer him to learn to follow rules now than to think lifes easy and you can get away with murder. this is mind, my ds is 4 and a half. i think until kids are at an age where they comprehand wat they are doing is wrong, smacking is of little help. mind you if my 10 month old was trying to touch a hot plate i would lightly smack his hand as that hurts a hell of alot less than a burn!!!
im sure a lot more bub hubbers would admit to smacking if it wasnt labeled so much as being pointless and abusive. i have my ways , others have their ways.
good luck to everyone which ever way they decide to discipline

[Kirstlea]

Usually when my dd starts up with a tantrum, I would tell her to calm down but she gets so angry she can't hear me, so I either walk away and leave her to it or if in a public place I just stand beside her and let her go for it. After a few minutes I will ask her if she feels better yet and tell her to hurry up cause we are running late. So far its worked for me she will be 3 in May.

When she throws a tantrum at home or in the car I'll let her scream and thrash about until I'm over it then I just tell her in a firm voice thats enough and she stops. Surprisingly enough it works.

She does get smacked for dangerous things. No one can tell me that they don't understand some things at that age. They certainly know how to manipulate already.

I did try another tatic the other day, I could see dd was winding up for a tantrum because she didn't want a spoon to eat her yogurt with so I wasn't letting her have the yogurt.

I backed away crouched down to her level and asked her to come to me in a quiet voice, asked her for a cuddle and said to her "your not a very happy little girl, tell me whats wrong" she just snuggled into to me. Then I asked her if she still wanted some yogurt and with an excited yes ran over to pick the spoon she wanted.

So whatever you do try to vary the way you deal with different issues, that way they don't get complacent.

Goodluck :D

[SassyMummy]

I agree with Katesmum who earlier said:


Appreciating that I will probably be hailed down, I just couldnt read anymore on this post without adding my 2 cents in.

I can't even remember who posted the original question because so many righteous (read superior) parents have given the poor lady a firm talking to.

I agree with all the abuse stuff blah blah blah but surely this is not the type of response that helps a mother who isnt sure how to deal with their childs behaviour.

I think less judging and more support would be appropriate...... In the calm light of day, we all know what we should do but in the moment it can be hard to maintain logic etc so lets give up some of the high moral ground stuff and be the support network that fellow mums are looking for.

I completely agree. :yelclap:

I added that I "tap" my daughter on the hand when she's trying to do dangerous things. She's 8.5 months old. She cries when I TAP her...though she can fall down and bash her head and still not cry. I said that I feel it's because she's manipulating me to feel bad, not because I hurt her.

All of a sudden, my comments are being subjected to judgement: I am a fool to think that my daughter is manipulative. Maybe I am - but I did not reply to this topic so my own actions can be told off. I was stating my opinion - as was everyone else. I don't see why I needed to be told that what I thought was incorrect. I still believe that she IS manipulating me...

I believe that if you WANT people to comment on your parenting techniques then you ASK for them to. Otherwise, it's best if you keep your opinions to yourself.

This post was a mother asking for help and advice - not asking for a list of "why smacking is wrong."

[rynosmum]

All of a sudden, my comments are being subjected to judgement .....

You are completely correct that you were providing your opinion on the topic and not putting up your opinion for judgement or comment. I think we all need to remember that opinions are just that, what works for us and what we believe in.:hugs:

Equally, I don't believe that anyone on here should be considered a righteous (or superior) parent as in the article you quoted. Once again, these parents are putting up their opinions and what works for them.

Back to the topic....