Natural killer cells and failed IVF. Heard of it?

[hopingfor2]

Hi there,

I'm a new member but unfortunately an old hand at IVF. We already have one beautiful daughter compliments of IVF from first donor try, but totally different story with trying for a 2nd. After 2 years and many, many IVF transfers I have been advised that I have hyper-active natural killer (NK)cells.
Apparently everyone has NK cells and they fight off bad cells but with some people they can become over active or you can have too many and if this is the case they kill off the embryos. (This is very simplified!)
Anyway, the treatment is to supress your immune system with steriods and blood thinning drugs.
We're now trying to find a donor and give this treatment a go and hope this is the answer.
Has anyone else heard of this or has had success with this treatment?
Would love to hear.
Sharon

[wannab]

Hi there Hopingfor2. :wave:

Sorry I can't shed any light on your question. I have heard of womens ovaries shutting down in early years of there lives and therefore having little or good quality eggs. It having something to do with the immune system. Is that what happens with this condition?

After experiencing full IVF cycles , on 600 unita of puragon a day and still we got three eggs which were all immature with none fertilizing. I have wondered if maybe this condition or like this has been my problem all along. I have demanded test after test with GP and FS. Niether which reaped any answers. Does it also affect your eggs as well as embryos? Hope you don't mind me asking. I understand if its too personal and you dont want to go into detail.

No doctor seems to be able to give me the answers. Anyway at the very least I hope this post bumps you up so one of the lovely ladies on here can answer you question. Hope that BFP is just around the corner Hun. Take Care

Wannab:flowerz:

[Roxy]

Hi Sharon,

Yes - I have heard of what you are talking about....and it can be treated!

For more info and a great Dr, contact Dr Gavin Sacks at Sydney IVF. He is doing some great things with immunology protocols and recurrent miscarriage.

ETA - my recipient (Mash here) has undergone the treatment, and it got her through her pregnancy with her DD.

[hopingfor2]

Hi there wannab
Sorry for not replying earlier. Having hyperactive NK cells is more about your immune system rejecting the embryos rather than any issues with eggs. But keep pushing to get answers, it took my clinic 2 years to finally suggest tests for this after I really pushed for some answers

Thanks for your reply Roxy. We did see Gavin Sacks and I was really impressed with him. Thank your for the heartening news, we have found a donor so I am so excited about giving this treatment a try......I am keeping everything crossed that finally it will work!

Cheers, Sharon

[Mel W-C]

hope this isnt a dumb question but how do you know if your natural killer cells are active??

[Roxy]

You find out by having a blood test that tests for certain "markers" ...if the markers are elevated, then the NK cells are active, and could be a contributing factor of recurrent miscarriage or implantation problems.

[Mel W-C]

how many implant failures before i should ask about having this test?

[Sonja]

Hi Mel

I had this blood test done at the end of last year when I'd had 4 fresh embryos and 2 frozen fail. I think you can ask for it anytime (you pay for it so it's up to you).

Sonja

[Roxy]

Given that it looks like you have been TTC since mid 2003 without success, it's something that I'd look into sooner rather than later, if I was in your shoes.

Again - contact the Dr I mentioned above. Don't worry if you aren't in Sydney - he sees patients from all over Australia. you do need to see him for at least one consultation, but really, what's a trip to Sydney if it means you finally get to conceive and have your baby?

[Incy Wincy]

If you have these killer cells do you always suffer miscarriages? Or can it be present and just cause the embryo not to implant and therefore you just don't get pregnant?

Thanks

[Mel W-C]

travel to Sydney isnt a worry as my clinic is there anyway and its not that far from home(1ish) thanks heaps for the info.

OP sorry to hijack you thread

[Roxy]

If you have these killer cells do you always suffer miscarriages? Or can it be present and just cause the embryo not to implant and therefore you just don't get pregnant?

Thanks

I'm certainly not an expert, but I believe that the cells can contribute to implantation issues (and therefore no pregnancy)...you can find Dr Sacks' details if you google him, and he always answers emails, so it would be worth tracking him down and getting in contact with him. If nothing else, it means that you can rule out another reason why you aren't getting TTC success.

[hopingfor2]

Hi Incy Wincy

I was advised that it's not just miscarrying, it also inhibits the implantation.

So if you have had repeated implantation failure you should have this blood test done.

Cheers, Sharon

[Incy Wincy]

Thanks ladies,

I'm just not getting pregnant at all. I feel like I am working my way down a list of possible causes. If my current IVF attempt doesn't work I will enquire with my FS about the killer cells and ask about testing.

Does anyone know how much the test is?

BTW I googled Dr Sacks and he sounds like a wonderful Dr. I note he is researching pre-eclampsia too. A condition I had towards the end of my first pregnancy.

Thanks
Incy

[hopingfor2]

Hi

You need to do a consult with Dr. Sacks and he charges a consult fee. I think it's around $150. The test which is done at the hospital in Kogarah is free.

Cheers, Sharon

[Sonja]

I paid about $400 for the test but got most of it back from medicare.

[Asha]

I asked my GP to do it after 17 failed embryo transplants and he did it on bulk billing. So no cost to me. And a negative result, phew.

[nevergivenup]

I paid about $400 for the test but got most of it back from medicare.

Sonja - just wondering if you tested positive for NK cells. It would be good to know of someone who was diagonised with it and now successfully pregnant.

[Roxy]

I know many women who have been diagnosed with high levels of NK cells, who have used the immune protocol and have had successful pregnancies. My egg recipient (I am a donor) has just gotten her second BFP in a row using the protocol - the first time is now her 20 month old daughter.

[nevergivenup]

Thanks so much Roxy for passing on this information, it means a lot to me :hugs:. I am desperately searching for answers and really believe this is a logical reason for my 2 m/c's and many cycles of implantation failure. FS has been baffled as to why I'm not pregnant yet as I have had transferred even what they call grade AA, being the highest quaility embryo.

[Roxy]

You are welcome!

If you are in Sydney (or even if you aren't but can get there), try and see Dr Sacks...he and Dr Matthias in Sydney are the 2 main specialists in Australia at the moment using the immune protocol. Dr Sacks is a little easier to get an appt with (and I think he is also a bit cheaper than Dr Matthias). If you google him, you will find an email address for him, and if you email him, he will reply pretty quickly...

Good luck.

[nevergivenup]

Thanks again Roxy, my FS has just called me and organised to have the NK cell biopsy done this month. I actually live in Adelaide, thank goodness they do it here. My FS told me that the research is still very new and they are still developing it but still thought it worthwhile to check. They are apparently treating it with prednisolone and something else (can't remember). I am quite familiar with prednisolone as when I was a lot younger it was used to treat my asthma on occasions when it was really bad. I have touched it for years as asthma is much better these days. How many cycles did your recipiant do before finding out she had high NK cells?

[Roxy]

My recipient had a lot of transfers before she had the testing (I think something like 8+ and 2 chemical pregnancies)...her treatment includes prednisolone, fragmin (although sometimes clexane is prescribed), plsu baby asprin, caltrate and a few other little bibs and bobs I think...but the main ones are the pred and fragmin.

[nevergivenup]

Thanks Roxy, you truely are a darling. What you have done to help in this dreaded ivf ttc is far beyond comprehension, you have made your recipient friend's dream come true and you have helped me with your advice, you really are an angel. Thank you for taking the time to give me some new hope :hugs:

[MrsPee]

Wow, you have also helped me too Roxy.

I have a child and then had a miscarriage after him, since then nothing.... I have tried TCM (Traditional chinese medicine) Acupuncture, Massage, Reiki, All sorts of positions, Herbs from the Sharkey clinic, different diets, counselling, holiday's, you name it I have tried it and now after four perfect embies in two transfers nothing. I know I have only had 2 transfers but I know that my egg's work, as I dontated in 05 and the couple now have a DD and a DS due soon. So I am thinking that it is just my body and maybe this NK.

I am now off to google sacks...hmmmm

[Roxy]

Glad I could help, Mrs Pee....the more women who become aware of this issue and seek treatment for it, the less "quackish" it will become, which is a good thing. Many FS still poo-pah immunity testing and protocols, but the fact is, is that there is gathering evidence to support it.

[nevergivenup]

Wow, you have also helped me too Roxy.

I have a child and then had a miscarriage after him, since then nothing.... I have tried TCM (Traditional chinese medicine) Acupuncture, Massage, Reiki, All sorts of positions, Herbs from the Sharkey clinic, different diets, counselling, holiday's, you name it I have tried it and now after four perfect embies in two transfers nothing. I know I have only had 2 transfers but I know that my egg's work, as I dontated in 05 and the couple now have a DD and a DS due soon. So I am thinking that it is just my body and maybe this NK.

I am now off to google sacks...hmmmm

MrsPee - I am so sorry to hear that you are suffering the same pain as me with your cycle also failing. It is so hard. Just maybe this NK cell thing is the reason why we are having such a hard time of it. I just know that there is a logical reason why our perfect embryos are not sticking. Hoping that we can both find the treatment protocal that will make our dreams come true. Hun, you are an angel, I didn't know you had also donated to somone else, that just goes to show your eggs are perfect, this could very well be the reason it hasn't worked for you. Go get tested hun! Luv NGU :hugs:.

[Incy Wincy]

Hi,

I read this article today in the British newspaper, The Daily Mail:

How £1-a-month drug could end the misery of miscarriages

By David Derbyshire
Last updated at 1:36 AM on 10th September 2008


Annie Greenhouse and son Finlay

Treatment success: Annie Greenhouse with her nine-month-old son Finlay

Thousands of women could be spared the misery of repeated miscarriages with a pill that costs just £1 a month, it emerged yesterday.

Researchers have found fresh evidence that a third of unexplained miscarriages may be caused by an overactive immune system.

They believe treatment with a common steroid, used for asthma and allergies, can curb the immune response and protect an unborn baby in the crucial early weeks of pregnancy.

The findings offer hope to around 9,000 women who have unexplained miscarriages each year in Britain.

In preliminary trials, around three-quarters of women who had a history of miscarriages had successful pregnancies after taking the steroid.

Dr Siobhan Quenby, who is carrying out the pioneering work at Liverpool University, is now beginning a larger trial to make sure the results are not simply down to the placebo effect.

She also hopes to develop a test that could screen women for miscarriage risk before they become pregnant.

This would replace the barrage of up to 30 blood tests that patients currently undergo to determine what may have caused them to lose their baby.

‘It is a matter of life and death,’ Dr Quenby said. ‘There are thousands of people who are desperate because they keep miscarrying and there’s no treatment. I am inundated with emails from women and there is a massive, desperate need.’

Dr Quenby has previously shown that a third of women who suffer recurrent miscarriages have an abnormally high number of ‘natural killer’ cells in their uterus. These cells – which are part of the body’s natural armoury – roam the body destroying viruses and infected cells.

They are also involved in the creation of new blood vessels. In the latest study, Dr Quenby took biopsy samples from 120 women who had suffered repeated miscarriages.

She found high levels of NK cells increased the number of blood vessels in the uterus in the early stages of pregnancy.

These blood vessels increase the amount of oxygen in the womb – at a time when a newly conceived embryo needs low levels to implant itself in the womb lining.

By giving pregnant women prednisolone, Dr Quenby believes she can reduce oxygen levels and increase the chances of a baby surviving.

In early trials of the drug, 30 out of 40 women suffering from repeated miscarriages, who also had high NK levels, went on to have successful pregnancies. One had suffered 22 miscarriages.

In a new trial which began last month, Dr Quenby plans to test these results by giving half of the women she recruits a dummy placebo and the rest a dose of the steroid.

Prednisolone’s side effects include mood swings and increased appetite.

However, most women would need to take it for just three months.

Professor Susan Wray of Liverpool University said: ‘There’s real hope that in five to ten years this could have a significant impact. It’s really terrific.’
The baby I always longed for

After her fourth miscarriage in as many years, Annie Greenhouse, pictured above, was about to give up.

Despite desperately wanting a family, she and her 38-year-old husband Mark, a management consultant, felt unable to go through the pain of another lost baby.

‘I was absolutely devastated the first time I miscarried, and it got harder each time,’ she said.

‘After the fourth one I felt “that’s it, I can’t possibly do this".’

Doctors told her there was nothing they could do.

But after reading about the pioneering research at Liverpool on the internet, the couple travelled from their York home to meet Dr Siobhan Quenby.

Within months Mrs Greenhouse, 35, was pregnant. Tests in December 2006 had revealed she had high levels of natural killer cells and she was put on daily doses of prednisolone.

The couple are now the proud parents of nine-month-old Finlay.

The pregnancy was an anxious time for the couple but they were overjoyed by the long-awaited birth.

‘I would try for more without a shadow of a doubt,’ Mrs Greenhouse said. ‘And I’m confident it was the treatment, I felt different in myself.’

[BUNNY25]

Hi girls
does anyone have contact details for Dr Sacks?

[Roxy]

Bunny - if you google his name, you'll find him very easily....:yes::yes:

[Backflip]

Very interesting reading over this- Mrspee, did you ever have the test done?

I had the BT done yesterday and have the scope going in Friday to see what they can see and have a biopsy done too.
I have only had two failed ET's too, but lucky I have a FS who wants to cover all bases.

What is the treatment?:)

[Staying Positive]

Just thought I'd let you girls know, and hopefully give some hope, after a lot of BFN's I found out earlier this year that I have high levels of Natural Killer Cells. I was put on Prednisolone, antibiotics and a lose dose asprin, I got my BFP after my 2nd transfer using this protocol.

I hope you girls find the answers you looking for and get your BFP's very soon.

[Backflip]

Congrats Staying positive- interesting what you have taken as I have to take all those this cycle. Finger crossed I get the same result as you!:yelclap:

[kwakatoo]

Thanks for starting this thread - it soo informative. I really want to have my NK cells tested (and any related immune issues) (I have high immunoglobulin etc too)- but am based in Adelaide - does anyone have any FS's they can recommend here that are informed about immune protocols?

Im not sure wether to try locally or go to Dr Sacks in Sydney..

Thanks!! :hugs::hugs::hugs:
Kerryn

[Roxy]

Hi Kerryn!

There was a thread here somewhere by someone from Adelaide and their FS was testing them for the NK cells...not sure how they have gone with that though...and I'm not sure if the FS knew what to do if there were high levels detected...

[Backflip]

I'm pretty sure any FS would be able to organise a NK test, it involves a biopsy of the endo lining after O. I am in melb and my FS did it and has sent the sample off to be tested- hopefully find out the result next week.
Nevergiveup is in SA, and she has had the test done too, hopefully she'll come on here and reply.:)

[nevergivenup]

Thanks for starting this thread - it soo informative. I really want to have my NK cells tested (and any related immune issues) (I have high immunoglobulin etc too)- but am based in Adelaide - does anyone have any FS's they can recommend here that are informed about immune protocols?

Im not sure wether to try locally or go to Dr Sacks in Sydney..

Thanks!! :hugs::hugs::hugs:
Kerryn


Hi Kerryn - I am also from Adelaide and had this test done very recently at Repromed. They have a very good research department and seem to be on the cutting edge of any new developments in research. My FS Dr Louise Hull, did the NK cell biopsy recently and the test, although proved I didn't have natural killer cells did find that I had some inflamation in my lining. I have now been treated for this by antibotics.

[Roxy]

I'm pretty sure any FS would be able to organise a NK test,

Yes - and FS *can* do the test, but most of them still think that NK cells are a bunch of mumbo-jumbo. The research into and treatment of NK cells is still new and not everyone is convinced yet. Hence the reason to either find a FS who will do the test and assist with the treatment, OR go to one of the 2 main specialists in Aust who are currently leading the field in this research and treatment (Dr Gavin Sacks and Dr Matthias).

[Ahli]

I know I have only had 2 transfers but I know that my egg's work, as I dontated in 05 and the couple now have a DD and a DS due soon. So I am thinking that it is just my body and maybe this NK.

I have had 7 transfers all grade 1 day 5's no implantations yet. I have had a Thrombophilia screen done and it showed low positive (not to worry) for NK cells, but Dr Gee at SIVF in Kent St who is an implantation failure and miscarriage specialist just did a biopsy for answers. Next they are testing my embryos with PGD.