christianity in public schools

[mummy2sophie]

I heard a little while back about how there is some teaching of christianity in public schools. It would be no surprise to you as an atheist and an Australian (aren't we supposed to accept all religions and beliefs?) that I find this absolutely abhorrent. :shame:

But it leads to an interesting question: how do you know if the school you are sending your child teaches religion? :confused:

I'm obviously talking about public schools, I have no issue with private religious schools teaching religion (well actually I do - but that's another topic). I don't want my daughters taught christianity, certainly not without my consent. If it were a worldwide religion and philosophy subject I would have absolutely no problem with that. I just think children are so impressionable and I don't want my daughter to have faith pushed on her in any way.

Anyone have any further information? How can I choose a school where I know that religion will not be taught?

[missie_mack]

I think you will find in most public primary schools there is a religion topic as part of the standard thing

This is the religious education policy for NSW's Education Department


What is religious education?

Under the Education Act 1990, public schools provide religious education in two forms.
What is general religious education?

General religious education is taught through the Board of Studies syllabuses and includes what people believe and how these beliefs affect their lives.
What is special religious education?

Special religious education is provided by authorised representatives of approved religious groups to students whose parents have nominated that religion and at a time negotiated with the school.

[the_queen]

The public school I send my daughter to has a general "RE non-consent form" at the beginning of the year, whereby if I didn't want her exposed to the RE classes (they have them at Easter and Christmas time) I had to opt out.


I am a Christian, but that doesn't mean I necessarily want my kid taught about christianity at public school by some travelling evangelists. Unfortunately for me, because we live in a small country town and we are active members of our church, I felt that pulling her out of the RE things would actually cause more talk etc. It is mentioned in the newsletter who the RE instructors are, and if I'm at all concerned about who it was, I would keep her home that day. I'm comfortable with faking a sick day :D In general though, the RE is done by volunteers from local churches, and I'm OK with that.


If I had a choice (in fact, when she started school we lived in the city so I did have a choice) I would still send her to a public school, and I would prefer she didn't learn about any religion in junior primary, I think it's too big of a concept to grasp at that age. Whereas me teaching her at home and Sunday school (yes, I'm a sunday school teacher :D) is different because it's more about sharing my faith and my culture and the culture of our forefathers.

The way I'm going to school my kids is that they go to public school as youngsters. In our church there's infant baptism and then confirmation when they're about 14. I will not force my kids to be confirmed, in fact it cheapens the ceremony and demeans all of us if they do it just to please me. If they choose to be confirmed and become members of our church, they will be given the choice to go to a christian high school or public high school. I think that as a christian teen, it will be easier to attend a christian school where a bigger percentage of the students are also christians.


So in conclusion, and in summary, I would think that public schools need to disclose any and all RE they plan for the students. And if they aren't obviously mentioned, I'd be asking the principal.

[mummy2sophie]

That's terrible!!! you mean that religious material is part of the curriculum?? :gloomy:

There's no guidelines there about how teacher should teach this, are there any guidelines?.... I mean a religious teacher could teach just about anything! I'm going to talk to my member about this.


thanks for the info anyway...I know it is taught in NSW but now we are in victoria and I believe it is taught here as well.

Any tips on how to find out about victoria?

[MummaBear03]

I went to a public school for some of primary school and RE was taught from Grade 3 up at that school and it was very general, not from one specific religion. I don't see the harm in showing kids what people believe in, it's not like they try to convert kids or at least it wasn't when I was in primary school. I went to a Catholic for upper primary and secondary schooling and was actually taught about other religions including Muslim and Buddhist. Not in a bad way, just in a way that shows other religions and why people believe it and what people in those religions actually stand for. I haven't looked into other religions much since then TBH but knowing what I was taught from back then has given me enough of an understanding to know that Muslims are very peace-loving and those that are causing the problems in the name of their "faith" are not what their religion promotes at all and people in that religion are very peaceful rather than terrorists which is what seems to be portrayed in the news :rolleyes:

[mayasmum]

this is terrible. my friend's kid came home form school last week (grade 2) telling her mother that their re teacher told them about how the world was created in six days and that jesus lived in her heart etc. travelling evangelists (as the queen called them) are liable to say this stuff like it is proven fact, and children will take it all literally.

they took her out quick smart and instead now she will be mucking up in the library or doing colouring in the neighbouring classroom. hardly an educational alternative. :no: :rolleyes:

[mummy2sophie]

primary school kids have so much to learn I find it appalling that they waste time on this stuff. As I said an objective view of worldwide religions and philosophy would be okay.

but it's delicate because the kids are delicate.

mayasmum: that is simply awful.

[mummy2sophie]

the queen: thanks for this superb post. i would definitely opt out of these things. I am disappointed however that my dd will have to leave the classroom. that in itself will take some explaining...

and i totally agree: it's far too big a concept for littlies. if she decides later she wants to be a christian or whatever, then so be it. but at least then it will be her choice and not something that was foisted on her.

[nanasabj]

my dd started kinder this year and being a catholic who has myself been to public and private schools found that the education i recieved at public school was better than that i recieved at private.. so i am sending my dd to public,

at the beginning of the year they asked me if i wanted her to take part in scripture and i have no prob so i said yes but there are alot of parents who dont and the classes r just split and one part does something else while the others do scripture.. its up 2 u if u dnt wnt ur children learning religion then i'd make sure that their teacher knows this and doesnt teach it to them..

[MummaBear03]

As for the question of how do you know if your child's school teaches religion, well it's just something you'd ask about surely. I asked about the religious education side of it, the sports side of it, and the music side of it, and asked what other extra-curricula activities were on offer so I guess if a parent was concerned at all it would be asked upon enrolling? Well, I'd ask, but I'm a little pedantic too :o

[abibelsmum]

My daughter isn't at school yet, but I remember when I was in primary that my parents had to sign a consent form for me to go to Scripture.

[sunnyflower]

Why would you have a problem with private religious schools teaching religion?

Isn"t that a bit like sending your child to tennis lessons and not wanting your child to learn tennis.:confused:

[mummy2sophie]

my dd started kinder this year and being a catholic who has myself been to public and private schools found that the education i recieved at public school was better than that i recieved at private.. so i am sending my dd to public,

at the beginning of the year they asked me if i wanted her to take part in scripture and i have no prob so i said yes but there are alot of parents who dont and the classes r just split and one part does something else while the others do scripture.. its up 2 u if u dnt wnt ur children learning religion then i'd make sure that their teacher knows this and doesnt teach it to them..

It seems like most schools ask then?? If there are so many parents that pull their kids out then why have them at all? Isn't this a waste of time and school resources (someone has to watch them whilst they are out of the class).

Besides I happen to believe in the separation of school and state. We are not a religious country, we're a secular one....so why are we teaching religion to so called "secular" public schools?

[mummy2sophie]

Why would you have a problem with private religious schools teaching religion?

Isn"t that a bit like sending your child to tennis lessons and not wanting your child to learn tennis.:confused:

Well as much as this is off the topic I don't like schools teaching religion at all. I don't think children have the ability to discern between what they are taught in regular classes (maths, science, english) and what is not based on factual information. I don't think they can choose their religion until they are much older. On the other hand I have no problem with all religions or philosophy being taught in an objective manner. As long as it is objective.

That's why I probably wouldn't send my child to a private school.

[mummy2sophie]

As for the question of how do you know if your child's school teaches religion, well it's just something you'd ask about surely. I asked about the religious education side of it, the sports side of it, and the music side of it, and asked what other extra-curricula activities were on offer so I guess if a parent was concerned at all it would be asked upon enrolling? Well, I'd ask, but I'm a little pedantic too :o

I'm just learning about all this so I actually wish I knew more. but why should I have to ask? I mean I just assume that, being a secular country we'd have secular public schooling. It appears that it is part of the curriculum and thus not extra-curricular.

I will ask though! :laughing:

[SassyMummy]

I know they teach it - as RE, which can be opted out of (but this isn't always adhered to). RE isn't exactly that fair either... our school had different variations of Christianity... or non-religion. There was no room for any other religions... which was a bit stupid.

In high school we had a chaplain. He was nice, and didn't preach really. He usually just helped out... for example, he helped out in "Extension Class" (a program for gifted and talented students)... and he was nice there.

The only real "religious" education I'm okay with my daughter learning are the basic stories associated with religious holidays. I wouldn't want a ban on making Christmas decorations in class or anything... because while I'm not religious, we still celebrate it in a non-religious way.

[sunnyflower]

Why would you call australia a "secular country"?.

I think you will find there are vast numbers of christian,muslims,jewish and other spiritual groups here.

I think that the choice is there ,the schools cannot force any child to receive education in this subject if the parents disapprove.

I would rather my child get an education in religion than lots of other things!!!

[the_queen]

I disagree sunnyflower - if I objected to my child being taught evolution in high school biology, I wouldn't be able to have that part of the exam excluded for my child alone.

Australia is secular but also generally tolerant of all religions. (That's very broad - sometimes we're not very tolerant :() Our government is not run by any church/religion. Hence the term secular.

[mummy2sophie]

sassymummy: i'm not that nuts that i'd want a ban on christmas or easter decorations. but again I'd want these to be secular. After all you cannot exclude jewish or muslim students. It should be santa and easter eggs (or hats or whatever) and not religious.

sunnyflower: australia IS a secular country. It's the reason why we CAN have different people of different religions. We are not like Saudi Arabia (or other countries) where we live by religious rule.

[MummaBear03]

Why would you call australia a "secular country"?.

I think you will find there are vast numbers of christian,muslims,jewish and other spiritual groups here.

I think that the choice is there ,the schools cannot force any child to receive education in this subject if the parents disapprove.

I would rather my child get an education in religion than lots of other things!!!
That's right too! I was taught a little about Judaism also in primary school. Basically they didn't teach one particular thing, and they didn't teach it under grade 3 but they did touch on many different religions and I can't help but think this would be a good thing as it would give an understanding of what other people believe and why they believe it.

I don't think anyone sending their child to a Catholic school would have a problem with them teaching Catholic RE or those who choose Anglican would have a problem when they learn about Anglican religion. But in public schools it would be a question I'd ask but like I said, I'm a little pedantic lol. I asked about their nut policy, their lunch box policy, all aspects of education, all extra curricular stuff, outside school hours care, also asked them what they offer in all areas in case I need it from time to time. I go overboard but it seems like a question that would be asked along with other questions, particularly if people feel strongly about it. I don't mean to offend anyone, it's just how I would think to do it :flowerz:

[mummy2sophie]

no offense taken. It's just I didn't think RE was taught in public schools at all so it's not something I'd think to ask. But now I know better!! Maybe policy will change by the time my girls go to school. :fingerscrossed:

As I said, I don't mind with world wide religions taught. But I am skeptical about how this would work. In an ideal world it would be taught objectively but I just don't believe this would happen even in the majority of the time.

[missie_mack]

Victorian Education Department Policy


Religious instruction
Government schools are - and will continue to be -secular, in the sense that they neither
promote one religion ahead of others, nor promote any religious view at all. The Education Act 1872 specifically prohibits teachers in state schools from instructing or promoting any specific faith to students. This position is widely supported in the community and by those directly involved in Victorian school education.
Under the current legislation, however, religious
instruction can be conducted in government
schools. Many schools have programs conducted by volunteers accredited and registered through the Council for Christian Education, the World Conference of Religions in Schools, the Catholic Education Office and the United Jewish Board. Parents who do not want their children to receive religious instruction are able to opt out under the current legislation and schools are required to provide other lessons for these children during the religious instruction time.
Regulations allowing religious instruction in
government schools were first introduced in
1905.
The current arrangements were introduced in 1950 and have received general community
acceptance. These should continue.

There is substantial community support for
afirming the secular nature of government
schools as a principle in the legislation and for continuing to allow schools to conduct voluntary religious instruction.
Many schools not owned or operated by the Government are also secular in tradition and are not underpinned by a specific faith. While all schools in the government system will uphold the principle of secularity, many non-government schools do so either totally or in great part.
Comparative religious studies
In a democratic, multicultural society such as
Australia, there is reasonable agreement that
schools should enable their students to understand the religious perspectives, beliefs and cultural understandings of the people who constitute the society in which they live. This will inevitably involve some exploration of religious beliefs.
One unintended consequence of the 1872 prohibition is uncertainty about whether teachers in government schools may teach subjects about religion at all. Even courses in comparative religion, which do not promote a particular view but rather explore the histories and practices of several religions in a non-partisan way, might well be prohibited. This would have the effect of preventing government schools from teaching
VCE-accredited courses, such as Texts and
Traditions, or teaching history and politics
effectively at a number of schooling levels. This anomaly should and will be addressed.

[Veruca Salt]

I'm not a religious person but I am intrigued by them and some of that comes from not getting any religious education as a child. I often feel embarassed by my lack of basic knowledge of different religions. Having said that, I think it's important children are exposed to theories of both evolution and divine creation.

Give them as many choices as possible and hopefully they'll find one that feels right for them.

I wouldn't want my child attending religious services as part of the school experience.

[mummy2sophie]

"Under the current legislation, however, religious
instruction can be conducted in government
schools. Many schools have programs conducted by volunteers accredited and registered through the Council for Christian Education, the World Conference of Religions in Schools, the Catholic Education Office and the United Jewish Board. Parents who do not want their children to receive religious instruction are able to opt out under the current legislation and schools are required to provide other lessons for these children during the religious instruction time. "

Are you kidding me??? So anyone as a "religious volunteer" could teach a bunch of kids about religion. My question would be: are these volunteers accredited in some way (apart from their own institutions)? Do they have to have any teaching background or training? Are they subject to background and police checks like teachers are? (I'd be really worried as a parent if they aren't)

I wanna volunteer. I wanna volunteer!! :laughing:
Would they let me as an atheist i wonder?

(imagine the poor religious kids parents' horror when they get home from school..."this lady came and said there is no god...") :footinmouth:

[mummy2sophie]

I'm not a religious person but I am intrigued by them and some of that comes from not getting any religious education as a child. I often feel embarassed by my lack of basic knowledge of different religions. Having said that, I think it's important children are exposed to theories of both evolution and divine creation.

Give them as many choices as possible and hopefully they'll find one that feels right for them.

I wouldn't want my child attending religious services as part of the school experience.

I don't know...I'm a skeptic at heart. It treads a fine line learning about religions and being indoctrinated into religions. I'm cool about choices for my child but I really don't think that children cannot be objective about religions or really be able to choose a religion until they are older. It's kinda like children not being able to choose their own politics.

You know, if the gov't want to make RE part of the curriciulum. Fine! Train some trained classroom teachers (so they know what they're doing) in all the religions of the world, and these specialist RE teachers can teach across 2 or 3 schools, this providing regular teachers with the non-contact time they need and kids can learn all about different beliefs.

That would be a fine solution in my opinion.

[missie_mack]

Well I know to be approved to teach catholic RE you have to do a recognised study course (which is a certificate) but you dont have to be actual catholic of course. So if per se you wanted to teach this objectively without throwing your own perspective on the situation you could do the course through the Australian Catholic University :)

[MummaBear03]

I'm sorry, just trying to clarify, did you go into a classroom of kids and say there is no god in front of all the kids for them to be going home saying that :confused:

[mummy2sophie]

No I didn't!! :laughing: And I wouldn't.

I am an ex-high school english teacher (I'll go back when my own kids are school age). I don't express any religious beliefs in front of my students....unless of course they ask (which none of them have yet). I've taught at catholic schools and christian schools. I think it's wrong to teach any religious values, particularly at such a vulnerable age.

[MummaBear03]

Ok :D I was thinking oh my lol. My daughter will get it from the start because she'll do right from Prep at a Catholic school. I don't really see the harm in it since while I was at a public school it wasn't done in a brainwashing converting type way, more of an informative kind of a way and to me that's a good thing. The more we understand about other people, the better off we'll all be, and the less judgemental people are likely to be. JMO

[mummy2sophie]

Well I know to be approved to teach catholic RE you have to do a recognised study course (which is a certificate) but you dont have to be actual catholic of course. So if per se you wanted to teach this objectively without throwing your own perspective on the situation you could do the course through the Australian Catholic University :)

Yes I know some of these teachers. Some are really excellent :thumbsup:

Some are poor though (like some teachers of other subjects I suppose).

But many teachers teach subjects they are not trained in, to deal with the teacher shortage. well I know this happens at high school at least.

[Ana Gram]

I am not comfortable with random people coming into my DD's classroom to tech them about their religion. Especially not primary school. I have seen the damage it can do. When I was a nannying, one of the girls came home one day from prep crying hysterically because someone had come to their class and told her that people who don't believe in god are going to hell and then described hell. Well, all her immediate family, including myself, were non believers so it didn't take her long to put two and two together. It took months to get her back on track after that.

[Ffrenchknickers]

At least you have the option of opting your kids out of the RE classes.....we can't opt out of science classes that teach evolution as fact:p

RE teachers and chaplains of course are always subject to the same police checks, training, blue cards etc as anyone else:yes:

[mummy2sophie]

Ok :D I was thinking oh my lol. My daughter will get it from the start because she'll do right from Prep at a Catholic school. I don't really see the harm in it since while I was at a public school it wasn't done in a brainwashing converting type way, more of an informative kind of a way and to me that's a good thing. The more we understand about other people, the better off we'll all be, and the less judgemental people are likely to be. JMO

I do agree, the more we understand about each other the more accepting we are. I just don't think that these religious "volunteers" will impart positive information about other religions. Why would they when they believe their religion is the right one??

Look, as a catholic, you know what you're sending your kid in for. And that's okay, that's your choice. But I have no choice. my girls will get religious education whether they go to a public or private school and that is what I have a problem with.

[MummaBear03]

At least you have the option of opting your kids out of the RE classes.....we can't opt out of science classes that teach evolution as fact:p

RE teachers and chaplains of course are always subject to the same police checks, training, blue cards etc as anyone else:yes:
Wow this is so true! What would happen with the really hard-core Christians who don't believe that dinosaurs ever existed and the humans came from Adam and Eve rather than evolved from apes (or dolphins as suggested on some show I was watching, Discovery Channel I think) when their child is taught about these things in school can they be exempt from Science which is a CORE subject, and compulsory in Year 8 and in all years at some schools? Opens up a whole new lot of questions doesn't it.

[missie_mack]

Yes I know some of these teachers. Some are really excellent :thumbsup:

Some are poor though (like some teachers of other subjects I suppose).

But many teachers teach subjects they are not trained in, to deal with the teacher shortage. well I know this happens at high school at least.

Actually you dont need to be a teacher to be able to teach this (which will add to your concerns I spose) you just have to have a thorough knowledge of the system. I imagine it is similar for other faiths.....

When I went to public high school I only remember a few religious things going on and it wasnt normally in the classroom usually it was like a christian band in the gym or something and we were given no prior warning- although granted we are talking probably 15 years ago. I do remember one girl in my circle who was a anglican who often would go secretly off to a anglican thing some lunchtimes but other than that never came across it. I guess it doesnt hurt IMO to learn about religion same as you learn about other cultures, greek mythology etc etc However I wouldnt like someone telling my child that it was all a story or a theory without proof. But I guess that is part of the reason I wouldnt send them to a state school either. However if I was athiest I wouldnt want people telling my child that God loves them and that they need to do such and such or they wont live on after dying or something either.....

I would think a broad approach to Christianity would be best without putting a denomination to whole scenerio.

[mummy2sophie]

Wow this is so true! What would happen with the really hard-core Christians who don't believe that dinosaurs ever existed and the humans came from Adam and Eve rather than evolved from apes (or dolphins as suggested on some show I was watching, Discovery Channel I think) when their child is taught about these things in school can they be exempt from Science which is a CORE subject, and compulsory in Year 8 and in all years at some schools? Opens up a whole new lot of questions doesn't it.

Um, because dinosaurs really did exist!

Have to go....DD needs feeding and so does family. Be back later!! :wave:

[MummaBear03]

Um, because dinosaurs really did exist!

Have to go....DD needs feeding and so does family. Be back later!! :wave:
See, that's what I'm saying, you get the real hard core christians who do not believe that dinosaurs have ever existed. One particular friend said it's trickery from the Devil planting the bones there for us to dig up to throw us off believing in God. BUT it's still taught that dinosaurs did exist and it's just an accepted thing (and I'm not saying they didn't, my daughter is a palaeontologist in training :p) but that's what some believe.

[TwoBlue]

At least you have the option of opting your kids out of the RE classes.....we can't opt out of science classes that teach evolution as fact:p

:iagree:

Its just "horrible" when Christianity is taught but no one cares less when Christian parents have to explain why we dont believe what the science teacher said ....

[alby2508]

I am a teacher and although i am religious I absolutely could not stand scripture at the school i taught at.

It is not taught by any teachers at the school.
It was friday morning for half an hour.
Those whose parents wanted them to participate did (We had a list) . If there was no consent form they went to non-scripture (which all teachers took turns in supervising).
Now, because the others were in scripture the teacher looking after non-scripture was not able to teach any of the children in non-scripture anything because it disadvantaged the other children ie: You couldn't do music as a proper lesson because those who were in scripture missed out.
Usually I spent most of my time disciplining the kids in scripture because they always saw it as the perfect time to "muck up" for the little old lady who came to teach scripture.
It was a nightmare :mad: the whole morning was disorganised because the kids (Primary school) saw it as a time to "muck up." Kids know when people can't control a class and they take advantage.

I think if you are religious there is plenty of time to do it at home, go to church on Sunday,live your life daily by your religion etc etc. 1/2 an hour once a week is not changing anything. I barely had enough time to teach all the other things in the curriculum- that 1/2 an hour could be used to something a lot more constructive.And by the time everyone gets organised and everyone is in their right spot its about 45 minutes wasted.

What i also could not stand was that one of the mothers of a child in my class taught scripture and her daughter was a really unsettled child who needed a lot of help concentrating etc etc This woman was constantly on my back about coming in and doing religious activities in my classroom I constantly explained the policy but she just wouldn't take no for an answer so i told her to see the Principal. ANYWAY... I had to call her up to school to discuss ways that we all could give her daughter strategies to cope better at school and she said to the Principal in front of me " Oh Miss L hates my daughter because we are Christian.." I almost fell off my chair because I am Christian she just didn't know it!!! And her daughters issues had nothing to do with that!!!

Anyway in my opinion it is a waste of time- well the scripture bit anyway. I am pretty sure there are units of work in Society and Culture and HSIE that are relevant but i have never taught either of these so cannot really comment. I never ever discussed religion with my class ever- THERE ARE WAY TOO MANY OTHER THINGS TO TEACH!!:laughing::laughing:

Just wanted to add i taught at a Public School- I got a bit off track from the original question.

[missie_mack]

Some christian schools teach science inline with biblical beliefs... I will have a think and ask DH the exact phrasing they use cause DH was offered a job at a school that didnt teach evolution via dinosaurs etc

[missie_mack]

I think if you are religious there is plenty of time to do it at home, go to church on Sunday,live your life daily by your religion etc etc. 1/2 an hour once a week is not changing anything. I barely had enough time to teach all the other things in the curriculum- that 1/2 an hour could be used to something a lot more constructive.And by the time everyone gets organised and everyone is in their right spot its about 45 minutes wasted.


And yet teachers in religious orientated schools manage to teach more than 1/2 hour of religion a week and teach the standard curriculum. Maybe they should be better appreciated and paid more :yes:

[alby2508]

And yet teachers in religious orientated schools manage to teach more than 1/2 hour of religion a week and teach the standard curriculum. Maybe they should be better appreciated and paid more :yes:

I'm sure they do but a lot of it they are able to integrate which is the beauty of an "integrated curriculum" If i could integrate religion into other subjects i could teach more than 1/2 an hour of religion too- BUT guess what we can't so it HAS to be separate.

Oh and most have longer hours our local Catholic School goes from 8:45am- 3:15pm as opposed to our local public school which is 9am-3pm. So they have all that extra time to teach religion too ha ha ha!! (Thats not meant to be sarcastic can't access the emoticons)

Having said all this - i never attended a public school - always Private (and religious). And none of my children will attend a Public School either - so i have nothing against Private religious Schools at all!!

[FishFace]

this is terrible. my friend's kid came home form school last week (grade 2) telling her mother that their re teacher told them about how the world was created in six days and that jesus lived in her heart etc. travelling evangelists (as the queen called them) are liable to say this stuff like it is proven fact, and children will take it all literally.

they took her out quick smart and instead now she will be mucking up in the library or doing colouring in the neighbouring classroom. hardly an educational alternative.

I think thats sad. Forced classes with aggressive evangelism are not the way ANYONE should teach.


"Under the current legislation, however, religious
instruction can be conducted in government
schools. Many schools have programs conducted by volunteers accredited and registered through the Council for Christian Education, the World Conference of Religions in Schools, the Catholic Education Office and the United Jewish Board. Parents who do not want their children to receive religious instruction are able to opt out under the current legislation and schools are required to provide other lessons for these children during the religious instruction time. "

Are you kidding me??? So anyone as a "religious volunteer" could teach a bunch of kids about religion. My question would be: are these volunteers accredited in some way (apart from their own institutions)? Do they have to have any teaching background or training? Are they subject to background and police checks like teachers are? (I'd be really worried as a parent if they aren't)

I wanna volunteer. I wanna volunteer!! :laughing:
Would they let me as an atheist i wonder?

(imagine the poor religious kids parents' horror when they get home from school..."this lady came and said there is no god...") :footinmouth:

I can do it after I have finished my Advanced Diploma in Christian Ministry. As far as police checks..Of course we need them.
I have to have a police check to pour water for kids in sunday school.


At least you have the option of opting your kids out of the RE classes.....we can't opt out of science classes that teach evolution as fact:p

RE teachers and chaplains of course are always subject to the same police checks, training, blue cards etc as anyone else:yes:

Uhuh...if only we could say we REALLY dont want you teaching that Evolution as fact!




Wow this is so true! What would happen with the really hard-core Christians who don't believe that dinosaurs ever existed and the humans came from Adam and Eve rather than evolved from apes (or dolphins as suggested on some show I was watching, Discovery Channel I think) when their child is taught about these things in school can they be exempt from Science which is a CORE subject, and compulsory in Year 8 and in all years at some schools? Opens up a whole new lot of questions doesn't it.

I am christian..in Bible college..fairly devoted lol...But I do believe Dinosaurs exsisted.



I have my kids in a Christian School.
I chose this as I hope to one day be working in Ministry and I think the Kids would find it easier to be in a school where they understand.

I do think there should be religious instruction at school.
But I dont think it should be compulsory.
I do agree that kids should be given something good to do while religious studies are taking place.

I dont think all christians should HAVE to go to Christian schools. In fact the idea scares me. It means we are segregating kids and teaching them that we cant all live happily. Thats so very sad.

I think Chaplains and the like are wonderful additions to a school.

Kids should have a person they can go to about matters of the spirit.

I agree that a class that teaches kids about all different beliefs, would be great for those who dont want a certain religious education.

Yesterday in my college we had a whole heap of people there for the WYD It was lovely. It was a catholic celebration in a pentecostal church.

I chatted to so many girls form these Catholic schools..some were Athiest others were orthodox or even muslim.

All of them were at BIG Catholic schools. So even in a religious school these kids still chose to stay true to their own beliefs no matter what they were.

Most of us "hard core" Christians are not out to brainwash your children. I for one would not take any pleasure in scaring a child and teaching them things they or their parents were against. I feel the same about Evolution...:yes:


Anyway loong ramble that probably makes no sense..lol

[MummaBear03]

I went to a Catholic school and religion was taught 3 times a week, 40 minute lessons each time. My brother teaches only in Catholic schools, his wife will teach only in public schools. They have been teaching the same number of years even though she's 3 years younger because he did a double degree (psychology as well) so took longer at Uni. She's on a higher rate of pay than he is on. I know myself, Catholic schools pay slightly less than public schools. My school went for longer than the public school too (8:30am to 3:30pm rather than 8:45 to 3pm)

ETA: I forgot where I was going with this, will come back and re-edit soon. Had a child in the kitchen who said "Uh-oh, MUM don't look in here!" so had to go running and forgot what I was going, oops.

[mummy2sophie]

I am not comfortable with random people coming into my DD's classroom to tech them about their religion. Especially not primary school. I have seen the damage it can do. When I was a nannying, one of the girls came home one day from prep crying hysterically because someone had come to their class and told her that people who don't believe in god are going to hell and then described hell. Well, all her immediate family, including myself, were non believers so it didn't take her long to put two and two together. It took months to get her back on track after that.

That's awful... :gloomy: Your poor DD.

See?? This is just the reason why I am so passionate about this topic. THis is exactly why I don't want religious instruction at schools.

[mummy2sophie]

And yet teachers in religious orientated schools manage to teach more than 1/2 hour of religion a week and teach the standard curriculum. Maybe they should be better appreciated and paid more :yes:

Well actually teachers in private schools are paid more. I know because I taught at various private schools. They get paid more because they generally have more pressure and responsibility to make their students perform. They only manage to teach RE and standard curriculum because they cram up the rest of the curriculum - and spend far less time on it.

[Ffrenchknickers]

See?? This is just the reason why I am so passionate about this topic. THis is exactly why I don't want religious instruction at schools.

YEah, but this one bad example.....it was the wrong way to go about it, yes but that doesnt mean that all RE teachers/chaplains are going to be like this.

RE teachers and chaplains play such a vital role in some childrens (and fellow teachers) spiritual lives, they really do.

Teachers of all subjects can do damage to kids by the things they say....one teacher I had at school had me believing that I wasnt as good as the other kids whose parents were multi millionaires.....things like that:(

If you want total control of what your children learn then the only option is to homeschool them.

[mummy2sophie]

:iagree:

Its just "horrible" when Christianity is taught but no one cares less when Christian parents have to explain why we dont believe what the science teacher said ....

Okay for a start a science teacher may disagree with christian beliefs but at least there's no attack on any particular person. And they're not attacking any particular lifestyle, they are teaching truths that have been accepted by the scientific community for years.

Evolution is accepted as fact by 99% of the scientific community. It has been proven through much research in various areas of science (palaeontology is just one, I can also think of biology, zoology, virology, genetics...etc). Creationism has so many scientific flaws it would be against the very idea of science to teach it. Apart from that it would undo everything else that is taught in science such as carbon dating, dinosaurs as well as evolution. That would be very confusing for students.

That doesn't mean you could disagree with evolution, but that would be like disagreeing with the theory of gravity. You wouldn't want gravity not to be taught in schools just because others don't agree with it, would you? There are other subjects that are taught that have less credibility than evolution - so why pick that one?? You don't have to answer, I know already....because it disagrees with the bible and christian beliefs.

Say I believed in a celestial teapot, that orbited earth. Would I be offended if we didn't study the possibility that teapots orbit the earth?
In other words, should we limit what we teach in order not to offend?

[Ffrenchknickers]

Are you ignoring me M2s???


Evolution is accepted as fact by 99% of the scientific community

Jesus is accepted by 100% of the Christian community;)

Why pick on just evolution? Because most science doesnt disagree with what the Bible says....evolution does...it has not been proven and therefore should not be taught as fact.

Can you see that Christians (well, me, I cant speak for others) could feel as strongly about this as you do about the oppostie? Only, we have no option of opting out....


In other words, should we limit what we teach in order not to offend?

Ummm, OK....isnt that what you are suggesting though?

At the end of the day, what you teach them at home is hopefully what is going to stick with them. We come across all kinds of people of different beliefs everyday...we need to be responsible for bringing up our children the way we feel is right.

[MummaBear03]

I am christian..in Bible college..fairly devoted lol...But I do believe Dinosaurs exsisted.
Yeah I didn't mean every person devoted to their religion, the particular person I was talking about is Mormon and we've been friends since we were 3, and other people that she is friends with through her church have said similar, and others from other religions also don't believe that dinosaurs were around ever and it's trickery by the devil. I'm Catholic and believe there were dinosaurs, etc too.

[mummy2sophie]

YEah, but this one bad example.....it was the wrong way to go about it, yes but that doesnt mean that all RE teachers/chaplains are going to be like this.

RE teachers and chaplains play such a vital role in some childrens (and fellow teachers) spiritual lives, they really do.

Teachers of all subjects can do damage to kids by the things they say....one teacher I had at school had me believing that I wasnt as good as the other kids whose parents were multi millionaires.....things like that:(

If you want total control of what your children learn then the only option is to homeschool them.

Teachers can be incredibly cruel. :shame: I hear lots of stories like this. But this is why I don't want religious instruction either, kids are so impressionable and I don't want someone not teacher trained to talk about their religion in a public primary school. You can say a teacher is cruel, but when a religious instructor speaks from the "mouth of god" a kid finds it hard to argue that.

I don't think children can be spiritual, and thus have no need for spiritual guidance. I don't think they should be encouraged to believe in the supernatural. Life is complicated enough. And this doesn't mean that they can't be moral. We teach morality in just about every subject, I know, I teach it in English :laughing:
If they need help there's school counsellors, or just general teachers, I know I get plenty of students confessing their problems to me... You don't have to be religious to help someone.

[mummy2sophie]

Are you ignoring me M2s???



Jesus is accepted by 100% of the Christian community;)

Why pick on just evolution? Because most science doesnt disagree with what the Bible says....evolution does...it has not been proven and therefore should not be taught as fact.

Can you see that Christians (well, me, I cant speak for others) could feel as strongly about this as you do about the oppostie? Only, we have no option of opting out....



Ummm, OK....isnt that what you are suggesting though?

At the end of the day, what you teach them at home is hopefully what is going to stick with them. We come across all kinds of people of different beliefs everyday...we need to be responsible for bringing up our children the way we feel is right.

Not ignoring you...just trying to keep up! :laughing: Sorry. So many posts since I was last here. :goodvibes:

I'll be back tomorrow...:)

[Ffrenchknickers]

I don't think children can be spiritual

Children can be spiritual, wow,they can be more spiritual than adults because their egos dont get in the way.

I agree you dont have to be religious to help someone....never said that.....but for kids who are Christian, chaplains can be such a comfort..not that they are allowed to really talk about God anyway....

Haha, about the dinosaurs....I dont think there is any denying they exitsed, I believe they are eve nmentioned inthe BIble....it is more the timeframe that is taught that contradicts the Bible.

[Ffrenchknickers]

Not ignoring you...just trying to keep up! Sorry. So many posts since I was last here.

I'll be back tomorrow...
LOL, sorry, sensitive pregnant woman alert....!:laughing:

[missie_mack]

In other words, should we limit what we teach in order not to offend?

So this theory is ok when it comes to Science which you believe in but not ok when it comes to religion which you dont agree in :confused:

[Ffrenchknickers]

So this theory is ok when it comes to Science which you believe in but not ok when it comes to religion which you dont agree in

MM, we agree on something:laughing: My thoughts exactly:yes:

[mummyJ]

I don't think children can be spiritual, and thus have no need for spiritual guidance. I don't think they should be encouraged to believe in the supernatural. Life is complicated enough. And this doesn't mean that they can't be moral. We teach morality in just about every subject, I know, I teach it in English :laughing:
If they need help there's school counsellors, or just general teachers, I know I get plenty of students confessing their problems to me... You don't have to be religious to help someone.

Kids can be VERY VERY aware spiritually. Often more so than adults!!!

I pretty much agree with everything that Ffrenchstar has said!!!

Morality is very fluid...Who decides what is moral and what is not???

You certainly don't need to be religious to help someone. But it's good for people to have the option of speaking to someone who is if they feel the need to!

[SalTheGal]

OK...have been mosying along here and just need to put my bit in!!

Firstly- OMG children can be so spiritual...they haven't learnt enough about scepticism to not embrace their "inner spirituality"- so that statement is a very iffy one IMO.

Secondly- I think that you need to do a little bit of research into the type of RE that is conducted before you make such harsh judgements against it....for instance when I was in primary (yep quite a while ago now!) we had RE once a week up till grade three. It was taught by some lovely old ladies from the local churces- who adored children, and loved the oppurtunity to come in and chat for half an hour about jesus/doing good/living a honourable life etc etc....It was (and I assume it still is) all very gently stuff that is more feel good rather than pushy religious stuff that kids wouldn't understand anyway.

No evangelcalism (sp? its late) and no forcing beliefs on children- but lots of lovely bible stories, do unto others type of stuff- very unpreachy.

Yep I agree that this may not sit well with you and many others, but first and foremost before being about religion- it is about simply being good people and practicing kindness and caring towards others.

And yep- you get to opt out. I think it is important to understand and embrace the beliefs of others....my DH went to a catholic secondary school, as a result of this he is largely an athiest- but he made this decision based on his learnings through school, so it is an educated choice that he has made.

Hmmm, me thinks I have rambled, :rolleyes: but I guess what I am saying is that maybe just maybe it isn't all as bad as what you seem to think it is- specially if you can take a step back and look at the bigger picture of accepting the beliefs of others (christians are a very large sample group of austalian people!)

[FishFace]

Children not spiritual??

Wow what a statement. I would not be able to underestimate my kids like that.

My kids are so spiritual.


hmmm...evolution 99% fact?
Really? I wil be delighted when a half man half ape fossill is found..actually any half creature would be a great find untill then Evolution is JUST a theory.
Regardless of religious belief Intelligent Design belief is growing.

Darwin Himself said...If humans are found to be more complex then first thought, my theory will fall apart!
When Darwin was around they thought cells were blobs..Science has discovered they are a tad more complex.



I agree with frenchie..(surprise?) I also believe Dinosaurs are described in the Bible..

[Cordelia]

A few thoughts:

I'm a teacher - had a bit to do with RE... and I've never noticed that kids are getting evangelised to. It's about having a knowledge of biblical stories and characters. And also learning about values such as love, patience, honour, respect etc.

Whether we like it or not, humans have always been motivated by religion in whatever form. I think ti's important for children to gain an understanding for the benefit of their general knowledge. Literature, Politics, War, Art... all has been inspired or driven by religion. There is so much symbolism and assumed understanding of Christianity in our society.

(PS as a Christian, I believe in dinosaurs - I mean hello, there are bones in the ground! And I agree with the last post - evolution is not proven. But other than believing in Creation and God, what else do scientists have? nothing. evolution, at this stage is all they have to work from.)

[mummy2sophie]

Wow you're pregnant that's awesome! Sorry I didn't know until you mentioned it just now. Don't worry I still have baby brain and am emotional too. But I know when pregnant... it's even worse.

Okay back to topic....
I am telling you as someone who has actually studied evolution it is as "proven" as other theories generally accepted by the public. It is not a theory that "works best" to explain where we come from, it IS fact and has been tested by the scientific community many times. As mentioned before it has solid roots in biology (did you know that many species being studied are evolving before scientists eyes?), in virology and microbiology (diseases mutate to become more effective in what they do - just site several drug resistant diseases floating around now - if not through evolution - how did these viruses (and bacteria) become drug resistent??)....by the way: in case some of you are confused, when something is said to be a "theory" it is talking about "general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena" (as wonderfully explained by dictionary.com). NOT to necessarily mean something of dispute. This is why we call it Einstein's theory of relativity, the theory of why the earth is round, the theory of gravity etc. These are all clearly proven as is the theory of evolution.

Sassafras: I am dismayed if in fact the theory of intelligent design is growing, because it is a terrible notion with many many scientific flaws. It has no scientific merit. In fact when a school in the US tried to introduce intelligent design into its curriculum parents took it to court on the basis that it cannot be taught as "science". The parents won. :yelclap:

But I'm not here to argue evolution and its validity. It would not be taught in schools if it did not have a strong base in science. Scientists would be outraged if something was taught in schools that did not have scientific merit. This is why they are so insistent that intelligent design not be taught in schools because it has no scientific merit.

I did find this (in the Age):
Under Victorian law, it is not compulsory for private schools to teach evolution, though it is recommended in the curriculum. In NSW evolution is a compulsory part of the syllabus.

So if you wish you can avoid your children learning evolution, just send to private school. I don't know why you wouldn't want them to since it really is fact.

Yes I understand that people's experiences of RE in primary school have been good. Notice how generally christians have explained that it is good. But I do not like the idea that someone comes in and talks about the bible and jesus and god like it is fact, even if it is gentle, even if it is done in an inclusive way. That is far too confusing for a child's mind to cope with.

learning values such as honesty, respect, love and patiences are taught in the classroom anyway. Through classroom rules such as sharing, putting up hand to answer, and not being allowed to lie (or being punished for lying). Children do not need bible stories to become moral as implied.

Cordelia: I do actually agree that children should learn somewhat about religion: its effect on culture, history and humanity. But doing this is very difficult without being objective. I am doubtful that these "volunteers" that come into primary schools are talking about all religions or that they are objective. I say it is easier to not teach religion at all and allow kids to learn about it through what they learn in history, sociology etc.

And as for chaplains in schools to provide comfort for christian kids?? why not provide rabbis for jewish kids, shieks for islamic kids etc? Schools are meant to be secular which means that children are to get their religious knowledge and guidance from outside the home. Religion has no place in schools!

And the very definition of spiritual is a belief in the supernatural. Now I believe in spirits as much as I believe in god (ie, not at all). But I do feel a connection with the universe, the earth and with other humans and species, I am amazed at the mysteries the universe presents. It's a wondrous world indeed. I am sure that children feel this too. This is often confused as being "spiritual". Spiritual is a very loose term these days. I am defining it as it has been traditionally defined: that it is supernatural, or based on religious beliefs. So I find it really strange to hear others say that children are more spiritual than adults? How can they believe in the supernatural more? :confused:

:ecomcity: - that is me. I think this is my longest post ever!! :laughing:

[mummyJ]

And the very definition of spiritual is a belief in the supernatural. Now I believe in spirits as much as I believe in god (ie, not at all). But I do feel a connection with the universe, the earth and with other humans and species, I am amazed at the mysteries the universe presents. It's a wondrous world indeed. I am sure that children feel this too. This is often confused as being "spiritual". Spiritual is a very loose term these days. I am defining it as it has been traditionally defined: that it is supernatural, or based on religious beliefs. So I find it really strange to hear others say that children are more spiritual than adults? How can they believe in the supernatural more? :confused:


It's definitely not confused...It is very real! I have seen things with my physical eyes, heard things with my physical ears, been involved in very spiritual physical occurances...I know that stuff doesn't happen to everyone, but you would still be chucking a hell of a lot of people into a mental assylum if we were all just "confusing" stuff as spiritual.

[mummyJ]

...oh also...Macro evolution (the whole kit and ka-bang og apes - humans) is certainly not fact!!!!!!!!! FARRRRRRRR from it. Pretty much as fictional as you can get in my books.
I have no problem AT ALL with micro evolution. Sure stuff evolves slowly to adapt to the environment.
I think that Darwin himself would be CONVINCED 100% of Intelligent design if he were around today.

[FishFace]

yes we have seen micro evolution.

But things stay within thier kinds they dont become whole new species.

We still have not seen proof that something simple can become way more complex.
Butthis thread is nto an evo v creation one.
maybe MTS start a new one?
Explain the evolution THEORY and lets see what we have.

It has way too many flaws for me.


As far as children being spiritual. Yes so many of us have seen it and been around children who feel spiritual.
My friend is an Atheist and her daughter is ...christian.
She was not evangelised.. she just told her mum she needed to go to church.
Her mum was completley shocked. She checked out school but no one came to talk and she asked her daughter why?
She just said God had spoken to her.

If you choose to believe that all of us are just confused and needed some cruthch to get through life..then thats your belief..

But honestly so many of us can tell you we didnt just choose this.
Its not a crutch..its hard work. ( satisfying..but hard)

[FishFace]

...oh also...Macro evolution (the whole kit and ka-bang og apes - humans) is certainly not fact!!!!!!!!! FARRRRRRRR from it. Pretty much as fictional as you can get in my books.
I have no problem AT ALL with micro evolution. Sure stuff evolves slowly to adapt to the environment.
I think that Darwin himself would be CONVINCED 100% of Intelligent design if he were around today.


SNAAAAAAP

lol..
and Darwin said..

If humans are more complex then first thought then my theory will fall apart.

[mummy2sophie]

Let me put it another way....this might help.

Evolution isn't a theory (note lower case), it's a hypothesis. A hypothesis only needs one contrary fact to destroy it. So far, after a hundred and fifty years that "fact" isn't forthcoming despite the best efforts of Michael Behe and others (christian or not) that try to destroy it. That seems like good factual basis right there.

If indeed Darwin really did say those things: who cares? The hypothesis holds true. Darwin himself is just a man, he doubted himself but couldn't deny the evidence. He did an awesome job with the tools of the time. And with what we know of him he believed in scientific truth. Intelligent design is far from scientific truth, there's no way he could agree with something so flawed.

Sassafras: I'd be happy to discuss "flaws" with you. Go ahead.
I'm sorry did I say in my post that I thought you were "confused"? I didn't say that.

where is your proof that things don't become whole new species? we know that they do from DNA evidence, things do become complex because the dna tells us so. We hold much of the DNA that apes do, even the "junk" dna. It is possible to track evolution as it works.

Why am I defending evolution? this is not about evolution. Religious teaching is not even scientific at all, and it should not be taught in schools.

[mummy2sophie]

wait a minute...a while ago you were offended that we would teach evolution in schools. And now you're saying that evolution does occur on a "micro" level??

[MummaBear03]

Scientist are still not certain of where we came from and evolution isn't a proven fact. We have a (I think it's called this, but it could be called something different) lateral "fin" down our sides and the only other animal that has one is the dolphin which is why one THEORY is that we evolved from the dolphins. This is a tangible theory, as tangible as us evolving from apes. If they are not 100% certain what we evolved FROM how can they be certain of the evolution process? And yes, evolution has been seen on a micro basis within the same species she was saying, for instance people are born from time to time without an appendix, and this is seen as an evolution process and THEORISTS believe that one day people will all be born with no appendix, as it's not a functioning organ in our body anymore, as in we don't need it so why do we have it. Again, this is just a theory. As for Christianity in schools, if you are that against it you have the option of skipping it, unlike other subjects you may or may not believe in. You also have the option of home schooling to ensure your children only learn what you want them to learn, and skip the Christianity side of it.

[mummy2sophie]

No I don't want to home school. I don't think I'm that intelligent :laughing: I would prefer them to have the experiences of school whatever they may be. I don't want to shelter them from bad experiences I just don't want my girls coming home from school one day saying "this nice lady came and god exists and he's everywhere" and having a discussion I don't think should happen until they at least hit high school. That's a tough discussion.

I would never say, "we are atheist, my daughter is atheist" I don't want to indoctrinate her with my non-beliefs. My daughter is not capable of making that decision herself (especially now, she's only 2!! :p).

Well I know that scientists are sure where we came from. We come from the same ancestors as apes and share a lot of our dna. I imagine we don't share much dna with dolphins, hence I think that's a very out there theory.

[FishFace]

Let me put it another way....this might help.

Evolution isn't a theory (note lower case), it's a hypothesis. A hypothesis only needs one contrary fact to destroy it. So far, after a hundred and fifty years that "fact" isn't forthcoming despite the best efforts of Michael Behe and others (christian or not) that try to destroy it. That seems like good factual basis right there.

If indeed Darwin really did say those things: who cares? The hypothesis holds true. Darwin himself is just a man, he doubted himself but couldn't deny the evidence. He did an awesome job with the tools of the time. And with what we know of him he believed in scientific truth. Intelligent design is far from scientific truth, there's no way he could agree with something so flawed.

Sassafras: I'd be happy to discuss "flaws" with you. Go ahead.
I'm sorry did I say in my post that I thought you were "confused"? I didn't say that.

where is your proof that things don't become whole new species? we know that they do from DNA evidence, things do become complex because the dna tells us so. We hold much of the DNA that apes do, even the "junk" dna. It is possible to track evolution as it works.

Why am I defending evolution? this is not about evolution. Religious teaching is not even scientific at all, and it should not be taught in schools.

lol at the uppercase /lowercase comment.
Sorry its just the way I type not meant to be rude.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree.
You cant see our view..we cant see yours.
Thats ok. I am never going to argue someone into believing what I do.

We could sit here for days arguing flaws. I dont have the time or the interest really.





wait a minute...a while ago you were offended that we would teach evolution in schools. And now you're saying that evolution does occur on a "micro" level??

Yes I am offended that they would teach evolution as a fact of how life came about.
I would not be offended by them teaching that micro evolution can occur.

[Ana Gram]

I don't know how many times I have to repeat the same thing in these threads. Evolution does NOT say we evolved from apes, so please stop saying it. If you want to talk about evolution, please look into it rather than discussing what you think it is. Sorry if that sounds rude but I am tired of reading the same wrong thing and having to correct it all the time. But it still doesn't seem to be sinking in.

On the topic of needed RE to teach about morals and how to treat people, what a load of hog wash. I find it incredibly arrogant that reading Christian bible stories are the way to do this. There are lots of other religions, why does it have to be Christianity that is RE???? Believe it or not, non Christians can have morals and values and we don't need to listen to Christian bible stories to do it :no:

[FishFace]

I give up.
It just gets too aggresive.
The evolution of apes to human is what is taught in schools.
I am not stupid and I have looked into it.

[Ffrenchknickers]

...oh also...Macro evolution (the whole kit and ka-bang og apes - humans) is certainly not fact!!!!!!!!! FARRRRRRRR from it. Pretty much as fictional as you can get in my books.
I have no problem AT ALL with micro evolution. Sure stuff evolves slowly to adapt to the environment.
I think that Darwin himself would be CONVINCED 100% of Intelligent design if he were around today.
__________________
:yes: Thanks, was going to say that too...BIG difference between the two....micro evolution is all around us....macro evolution claims that it is how life began and is very farfetched IMO...big difference.



So if you wish you can avoid your children learning evolution, just send to private school. I don't know why you wouldn't want them to since it really is fact.
Not everyone can afford private schools.....luckily we have the option of homechooling, but again, not for everyone....thankfully we have the power of God to help our kids make their decisions.


And as for chaplains in schools to provide comfort for christian kids?? why not provide rabbis for jewish kids, shieks for islamic kids etc? Schools are meant to be secular which means that children are to get their religious knowledge and guidance from outside the home. Religion has no place in schools

Chaplains do provide comfort and assitance ot any kids who need it. They are not allowed to talk about their religion especialy to sudents who are not Christian. Anyway, the governments plan for the future is to have chaplains from any religion not just Christian chaplains....

[Allegra]

At least you have the option of opting your kids out of the RE classes.....we can't opt out of science classes that teach evolution as fact:p


But you home school, so haven't you opted out?

[Ffrenchknickers]

On the topic of needed RE to teach about morals and how to treat people, what a load of hog wash. I find it incredibly arrogant that reading Christian bible stories are the way to do this. There are lots of other religions, why does it have to be Christianity that is RE???? Believe it or not, non Christians can have morals and values and we don't need to listen to Christian bible stories to do it

I dont believe that you have ot be Christian to have morals, infact the whole idea that Christianity is just about morals is undermining what Jesus was about. Christianity is not just a set of morals, if it is then there is no power of God.....You dont have to be Christian to have morals and being a Christian doenst neccesssarily make you moral either.

[Ffrenchknickers]

But you homes school, so haven't you opted out?

Yes I do lol...but we dont homeschool because of evolution hehe. We have the option of opting out of the whole school system....homeschooling is not an option for everyone....My point was that it is easy to opt out of RE...it would be impossible to skip a whole section of science class.:yes:

[Allegra]

yes we have seen micro evolution.

But things stay within thier kinds they dont become whole new species.



Through ecotype selection many micro evolutions lead onto a new species. It is just a logical process. You cant say something can mutate an infinite amount of times and not become a new species.

[missie_mack]

There are lots of other religions, why does it have to be Christianity that is RE????

Evidently in Victoria they must have jewish people giving RE too as part of the ability to teach RE in a school is being registered with the United Jewish Board. But your right there should be other religions available too.... but part of the problem would be getting volunteers to do it- because for the most part that is what they are.

I think you will find that Christianity is taught mostly also because it is the most common faith type in Australia in recent census' 65% of people identified themselves as being of a Christian Faith with only 18.7% identifying themselves of being no religion.... also to be considered is that 11.9% either failed to answer the question or didnt answer it correctly (like marking several or scribbling in the area) Other faiths outside of Christianity only made up 5.7% (Info sourced from ABS 2006 Census)

[Allegra]

?

Yes I do lol...but we dont homeschool because of evolution hehe. We have the option of opting out of the whole school system....homeschooling is not an option for everyone....My point was that it is easy to opt out of RE...it would be impossible to skip a whole section of science class.:yes:

Sorry I was just confused by you using the term "we". It gave me the impression your children were being forced to study evolution as a fact.

[Ffrenchknickers]

No I was just referring to a general group of people who do not have the option to opt out of these classes. (not saying that all Christians would want to opt out...) If my children went to school which they still could one day, they wont have the option but all we can do is rely on what we teach them at home and pray that thye find the truth.:)

[Ana Gram]

I give up.
It just gets too aggresive.
The evolution of apes to human is what is taught in schools.
I am not stupid and I have looked into it.

I actually thought I was being as polite as I could given that I have to repeat myself over every thread that brings evolution into it. It tends to feel like I am either being ignored when I correct people's idea of evolution or that they just don't get it or don't want to get it.

I am saddened to think that people are being educated to think that evolution is from apes to human. It is certainly not what I was taught at school. It is evolution from ape like to humanoid, which is quite different to ape to human. Perhaps most kids aren't paying close enough attention and only remembering the words ape to human rather than the whole thing.

I certainly did not say you were stupid, so please do not put words into my mouth.


I dont believe that you have ot be Christian to have morals, infact the whole idea that Christianity is just about morals is undermining what Jesus was about. Christianity is not just a set of morals, if it is then there is no power of God.....You dont have to be Christian to have morals and being a Christian doenst neccesssarily make you moral either.


It has been mentioned several times that RE is about teaching morals and how to treat people. I don't believe that you need RE classes to teach these things at all.

[Allegra]

Personally, I enjoyed being taught about different religions. But that was when I was in high school and I had a little bit of an idea of when I was being preached to as apposed to being educated.
But saying that, if I have a child they will be going to a public school and I will be opting out of RE, but teaching them myself about all the different religions, so they can find their own path.

[Ffrenchknickers]

But saying that, if I have a child they will be going to a public school and I will be opting out of RE, but teaching them myself about all the different religions, so they can find their own path.

That sounds like a great option:thumbsup:

[alby2508]

Just wanted to say RE at the school I taught at was for any religion. Our Principal invited any church to do it. So we ended up with (because of the locals that attended our school) Greek Orthodox, Catholic and Islam. So it wasn't just Christian. Depends on your local area for example they wouldn't have Greek orthodox at a school where there are none - they just cater for who is there.

[alby2508]

Personally, I enjoyed being taught about different religions. But that was when I was in high school and I had a little bit of an idea of when I was being preached to as apposed to being educated.
But saying that, if I have a child they will be going to a public school and I will be opting out of RE, but teaching them myself about all the different religions, so they can find their own path.

Thats a good point Allegra it is often in high school where you do learn about all religions but Scripture in Primary school is where you are just divided into your religious groups and learn about just "that" one.

Although I'm pretty sure there is a unit in HSIE where the kids learn about Celebrations which talks about all the different types of celebrations people have and that is often a unit where the kids can explore the different celebrations in different cultures (which obviously encompass some religious celebrations) and I think that is good fro the kids because they learn about different things people do but don't go into the nitty gritty just encourage kids to celebrate our diversity.

[Theboys&me]

Hi there - I am going back to the original post.

Just letting you I am a Primary School teacher (in public school) and I have never taught Religion (wouldn't know where to start :laughing:) But we do have a 1/2 hour religion lesson on a Friday. There is catholic, combined religion and then non-attenders. When enrolling a student the parent has the choice of which group they attend (which they can also change at any time with their consent).

Each group has a teacher assigned to it as well as the person taking the religious lesson. They have to have the blue card checks etc to enter the school and then the teacher is on the room to for behaviour management and to ensure that the class is running smoothly. If there was anything inappropriate occurring (such as harsh 'hell' statements) the teacher would intervene and report this to Admin.

It is entirely up to the parents where they wish to send their children for that 1/2 hour every week.

That is what happens where I teach - hope that helps.

[Ffrenchknickers]

It has been mentioned several times that RE is about teaching morals and how to treat people. I don't believe that you need RE classes to teach these things at all.

Yeah, I don;t believe that either:no:

[Ana Gram]

I am sorry if I have come across as aggressive. I am in rather a lot of pain today and really struggling to cope. I'm about ready to do my own surgery at the moment.

[LuvMyKids]

My son is in Year 1 in a NSW public school. He does scripture for 1 hour, every Thursday at school.

They are grouped as per the Religious question on their enrolment form. If you don't want them to attend you just let the school know.

We are catholic so he goes with the catholic group.

I don't have a problem with it...........all the kids are supervised. Every school would probably be a bit different but at the end of the day, if you want public the best option is to go with the public school you are zoned for and work around what you don't like.

You're never going to be 100% happy with everything that a school does........you just work with what you have..........ie. attend the non-religious group.

Go with the flow I say.........they don't have to attend scripture if you go public........its personal preference.

[Shera]

In Qld, children are usually given the opportunity to learn religion and the types of religion will depend on the school.

At one school my daughter attended, religions such as Buddhism, Bahai, Islam, Judaism and Krishna were offered along with the traditional Christian religions.

Personally I don't mind my children learning religion but agree that good values and ethics begin at home and that learning about all different religions would be beneficial. However, if my children learn religion at school, it will depend on who teaches the subject and how it is taught. But in addition to learning about world religions, I'm also supportive of children learning about scientific theories of creation. I want my children to receive a balanced religious/science education.

I have encountered very draconian science and religion teachers while prac teaching. An example being - a religion teacher telling year 4 students that they would go to hell if they and their parents didn't believe in God and a science teacher saying that if students didn't believe in evolution they were stupid.

This kind of fear mongering and ridiculing to gain faith/belief from children is unnecessary and distressing to young children who have yet to develop their logic and reasoning skills.

So, back to the topic of religion in schools - for me there is no black and white answer (probably because of my own agnosticism), this may seem wishy washy but I can see both the pros & the cons. The benefits if it is done properly can include respect, tolerance and greater understanding of differing beliefs & the negatives can include instilling faith out of fear, extremism and intolerance leading to persecution of specific members of the population.

[mummyJ]

I am sorry if I have come across as aggressive. I am in rather a lot of pain today and really struggling to cope. I'm about ready to do my own surgery at the moment.

you poor thing!!! hope you feel better soon.x x

I don't think you came across as aggressive. I understand. It often feels like we are just repeating ourselves in these forums!!!

I think that m2s was saying that we are descendant from the apes...so I think that is what a lot of people were disputing...

[Veruca Salt]

Say I believed in a celestial teapot, that orbited earth. Would I be offended if we didn't study the possibility that teapots orbit the earth?


M2S, I think you may enjoy this website :laughing:

http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/

The website is relevant to this discussion but those who believe in the creation story may not enjoy it so much, I don't want to offend anyone so you might prefer to skip it. :yes:

[mummy2sophie]

:laughing::laughing::laughing:

I love it!! Thanks VS! That's awesome.

Yes it is annoying when people get the facts about evolution wrong. We will never find a fossil half monkey half human because we originate from the same ancestor, not from them directly. I have to admit though, that I can be a bit cavalier about evolution and brush over a great deal of detail. I'll try to be more careful in future. If you want to learn more about evolution Bill Bryson's "A Short History of Everything" covers it and the Big Bang beautifully for the layperson.

Chelle: I really hope you feel better soon. There's nothing worse than being in pain. In the meantime, I can't say for the rest of you but I'll be quite happy for you to vent away and I don't take any offense to any impatience at all.

[mummy2sophie]

I must say I do find it interesting that most people here seem quite ambivelent about this. I know we can opt out of it or whatever, but I do find it a concern that religion has found its way to public children. Even supervised and excluded (if the choice is made).

For christians (or others of faith) imagine this: that your child comes home saying: there was someone at school today saying that there is no god and we're all going to die horribly with no afterlife and that you felt like an outsider and idiot for your beliefs. That is what it would be like for a child of an atheist to learn of god, except hell is a far more frightening prospect.

You talk of evolution teachings but you have to admit it's not even close to being the same thing. For a start that is high school (wouldn't be before yr 9) where kids are not quite so impressionable or vulnerable. Secondly evolution does not attack religion directly. It contradicts the bible, which students probably wouldn't know unless told so by their parents or church.

I just have a real problem with this topic even raised with primary school no matter what the environment. And I think separating students on the basis of their faith causes rifts within the classroom. Imagine my daughter was the only one withdrawn from the scriptures class? Immediately all students can categorise each other. Is this something we want to encourage at such an early age?

What happened to the idea of secularism?

[mamajess]

I went to varius public primary schools in qld and RE was compulsory. My parents usually provided me with a note to excuse me...mostly I sat in the library. I think it was a waste to focus on christian faith...surely so called RELIGIOUS EDUCATION should encompass world religions. Much more informative IMO. Could have been quite a fascinating, varied subject...

[Ffrenchknickers]

For christians (or others of faith) imagine this: that your child comes home saying: there was someone at school today saying that there is no god and we're all going to die horribly with no afterlife and that you felt like an outsider and idiot for your beliefs.

:laughing: Well done M2S, you have just described perfectly what most Christians and Christian kids go through on a daily basis:yes:

[mum2peanut]

And yet teachers in religious orientated schools manage to teach more than 1/2 hour of religion a week and teach the standard curriculum. Maybe they should be better appreciated and paid more :yes:

Here, here I'll take more pay. We have to teach 1/2 an hour per day.


Well actually teachers in private schools are paid more. I know because I taught at various private schools. They get paid more because they generally have more pressure and responsibility to make their students perform. They only manage to teach RE and standard curriculum because they cram up the rest of the curriculum - and spend far less time on it.

And no, I don't get paid more as a Catholic School teacher, our pay rate is slightly less than a public school teacher's rate of pay. A private school on the other hand is a different story. And when looking at hours the BOS requires us to spend on each KLA we still have enough time to fit that in, it is not crammed or pushed aside. We have requirements we have to fulfil.

My Dh teachers in a Public School and he has never taught anything in relation to Religion (aside from the Compulsory HSIE topic, People and their Beliefs- which looks at religions of the world). Most public schools in this area that I know of have their scripture lesson, which parent can choose to send their child to, ot choose not to send their child to.

I would also like to point out that the religious curriculum in Cathoic Schools is not about brainwashing children, simply educating them as to what we as Catholics believe. And although I agree that there are many ways of teaching children morals and such, luch of the RE curriculum does heavily focus on this.

I can completely understand not wishing for your child to be educated on religions within a Public School, and that is def something you need to address at your child's particular school.

On the other hand, sme people may not be able to afford to send their child to religious based schools and wish for them to be further educated about their religion of choice. And although you may feel you know enough to educate your child, some people mighten be as confident. Why should they miss out of this chance? If I couldn't afford to send my children to Catholic School I'd want them to go to scripture and celebrate their sacraments.

[SixtiesChild]

Hi there,

Unless I am wrong, evolution has never been known to offer a message of hope to despairing children.
In our Australia, families are breaking apart at an alarming rate & children's hearts are breaking in despair.
This is not something to be brushed away- it's really serious stuff IMO.
You don't have to look overseas for despair, because in many ways it is right here at home.
So, I don't think there's anything wrong with offering a message of hope to Australian Children. It's there to strengthen them!

If you look closely at Christian teaching, it is a message of HOPE to the human spirit.

To focus on hell is to distort the message & to miss the whole point of it all.
You need to look at the WHOLE message in perspective.

In stark contrast, evolution offers nothing but emptiness to the human spirit. If it had something more to offer that would be something.:yes: But it doesn't.

So i think that is why Christianity is in our schools.
For those kids that are silently suffering and might desperately need it and find comfort in it, in a world that cares less & less.
Otherwise there would be only evolution and that never helped anyone.

[SalTheGal]

IFor christians (or others of faith) imagine this: that your child comes home saying: there was someone at school today saying that there is no god and we're all going to die horribly with no afterlife and that you felt like an outsider and idiot for your beliefs. That is what it would be like for a child of an atheist to learn of god, except hell is a far more frightening prospect.

But you get to opt out of you do not want your child to participate!!! :confused: :confused: :confused:

So therefore no-one will be telling your child that they have to believe in god and otherwise will go to hell...NOT that they would be saying that anyway! That is a gross exageration (sp?) of what RE is about- and is becoming insulting! :mad:

If this has occured on a minority of occasions- then I would hope that the supervising teacher would intervene and that person would not be allowed to teach RE again.

Take a look at the census figures regarding how many christians reside in Aust, and I would also be interested in seeing some figures on how many people opt their children out of RE- if it becomes the case that more children are opting out that participating- then I think there would be cause for re-assessing the need for RE in schools.

[Ana Gram]

M2S has raised a good point though. RE is in primary school and evolution is in high school classes. This is a huge problem for me and part of the reason I am not sending my child to public school. I don't have a problem with it in high school as the kids are old enough to start deciding for themselves, but primary school :no:, they are far too young and impressionable.

[delirium]

To answer to OP, I don't think RE should be part of public schooling, if you want your child to be educated catholic send them to a catholic school.


On the other hand, sme people may not be able to afford to send their child to religious based schools and wish for them to be further educated about their religion of choice. And although you may feel you know enough to educate your child, some people mighten be as confident. Why should they miss out of this chance? If I couldn't afford to send my children to Catholic School I'd want them to go to scripture and celebrate their sacraments.

In the case where parents can't afford catholic schooling, I believe they should be instilling at home this rather than it being part of public school ciriculum. There is sunday school and attending mass, being part of bible study groups etc. The few actively christian children I've known, know about God, the sacraments, the 10 commandments etc before they even go to school because it's already an integral part of their life.

I also know that many catholic (not private) schools, particularly primaries, will sometimes take a lower amount of fees if you are a single mum or struggling and you geniunely want your child to recieve a religious education. I know several people that have done this and the school was happy to negotiate on what they could afford.

[mum2peanut]

I also know that many catholic (not private) schools, particularly primaries, will sometimes take a lower amount of fees if you are a single mum or struggling and you geniunely want your child to recieve a religious education. I know several people that have done this and the school was happy to negotiate on what they could afford.

Yes it true that Catholic School will take active parish members on lower school fees, but many people are too proud to do this. And although there is the option of Children's Liturgy for Catholic children (if their church offers it) there is no way they can cover in 15 minutes what can be covered in a full RE curriculum. I know I teach children's lit at my church. And there aren't a lot of other options for young children otherwise, and yes I know you can teach your beliefs at home, but it's just not the same as what you would get in a specific religious lesson.

[canberramomma]

As an athiest, I am very concerned about the introduction of religion into our public schools. I choose to send our children to public schools as there are many people of many different backgrounds and religions attending and none of these children are currently made to feel as though they are out of the mainstream as religion just doesn't come into the equation.

If a parent wishes for their child/children to be educated in the ways of the family's chosen religion, as far as I'm concerned, they can take them to church/temple/mosque/meeting/etc in their own time, and not leave it up to teachers at a public school! Either that or put them into religious schooling or home school.

[mummy2sophie]

Wow what a response. I was kinda expecting this thread to die out after I last wrote...I would have typed sooner but our service provider has been out.

I'm going to respond to just about everyone here: here goes....



:laughing: Well done M2S, you have just described perfectly what most Christians and Christian kids go through on a daily basis:yes:

Um, you forget I was a Catholic then Christian right up until my late teens. And I was a "good" one. I really did believe in the church and its teachings. I went to mass every week, confession too, and went to public primary school (I don't remember scripture class...how long has this program been around I wonder?). I was NEVER, not even ONCE excluded or belittled or bullied in any way because of my faith. In all my teaching experience I have never heard from my students directly or any case where a student (mostly secondary) has been belittled or bullied on the basis of their faith. Not ONCE. Maybe you are in the wrong neighbourhood?? Perhaps you are exaggerating or ultra sensitive just a little? I mean are you saying you feel like an outsider and idiot for your beliefs every single day? Can you give me some examples?? Perhaps you should live near me? :goodvibes:

[MummaBear03]

Christianity isn't being "introduced" in public schools, it's been there from the very beginning. It's mostly teaching bible stories and doing craft activities but Bible stories, whether you are Christian or not, have things to be learned from. They can be taken as symbolic rather than literal and there are many lessons to be taken from them. It's not pushing Christianity onto children, and I've never heard of Evangelists in Primary schools, only some secondary schools, by which time you would have already taught your children what you want them to take from these stories, whether it be literal or symbolic.

[mummy2sophie]

Here, here I'll take more pay. We have to teach 1/2 an hour per day.

And no, I don't get paid more as a Catholic School teacher, our pay rate is slightly less than a public school teacher's rate of pay. A private school on the other hand is a different story. And when looking at hours the BOS requires us to spend on each KLA we still have enough time to fit that in, it is not crammed or pushed aside. We have requirements we have to fulfil.

My Dh teachers in a Public School and he has never taught anything in relation to Religion (aside from the Compulsory HSIE topic, People and their Beliefs- which looks at religions of the world). Most public schools in this area that I know of have their scripture lesson, which parent can choose to send their child to, ot choose not to send their child to.

I would also like to point out that the religious curriculum in Cathoic Schools is not about brainwashing children, simply educating them as to what we as Catholics believe. And although I agree that there are many ways of teaching children morals and such, luch of the RE curriculum does heavily focus on this.

I can completely understand not wishing for your child to be educated on religions within a Public School, and that is def something you need to address at your child's particular school.

On the other hand, sme people may not be able to afford to send their child to religious based schools and wish for them to be further educated about their religion of choice. And although you may feel you know enough to educate your child, some people mighten be as confident. Why should they miss out of this chance? If I couldn't afford to send my children to Catholic School I'd want them to go to scripture and celebrate their sacraments.

If you're not getting paid more to teach at a catholic school then you need to see your principal! :laughing: I definitely got paid more (not much more) but maybe different in Victoria?

Christian and catholic (and other faiths) have the chance to learn extra "scripture" type lessons from home, church, and sunday school.
That's a lot of opportunities. Do children really need any more than that?? It's not really appropriate for a public school to give these students any more time on something that is a belief, not based on fact.

Yeah sure you get enough time to teach everything you have to, but you have to admit that without scriptures lessons you could fit in more, or have more depth (I'd prefer more depth to be honest). Primary schools have an awful lot to fit into every lesson. I don't think they spend enough time on English for example, as the number of Yr 7 students I have who have difficulty spelling very simple words correctly is incredible and seems to be getting worse. I blame it on Spelcheck :rolleyes: (even yr 7's are already reliant on it!).

Now I didn't mention that they would be "brainwashing". Only that what catholics would teach children about their beliefs would not be based on fact. Faith is an opinion NOT fact, it should not be taught as so.

[mummy2sophie]

Christianity isn't being "introduced" in public schools, it's been there from the very beginning. It's mostly teaching bible stories and doing craft activities but Bible stories, whether you are Christian or not, have things to be learned from. They can be taken as symbolic rather than literal and there are many lessons to be taken from them. It's not pushing Christianity onto children, and I've never heard of Evangelists in Primary schools, only some secondary schools, by which time you would have already taught your children what you want them to take from these stories, whether it be literal or symbolic.

okay but this is my problem!! Children do not have the ability to sort "symbolic" from "literal". For example (I might be able to find resources if you ask for them) children cannot understand that advertising is not true until they are at least age 8. They cannot distinguish between good salesmanship and truth. If an ad tells a kid that something is healthy then they will believe it to be so. If an ad tells children they will be popular if they have a particular product then they will believe it. THis is why advertising to children is so effective, and this is why we should ban it, especially junk food on prime time tv.

When you think about it the differences between literal and symbolic it is very difficult to understand, and I just don't want children to have to learn that from such an early age. In fact I don't think they CAN learn that from such an early age. I often have to teach texts as symbolic from year 7, as this is about as early as they can get it. This is when teaching metaphors is appropriate, not earlier.

It's funny, I can't remember my public school having these lessons. Then again I really can't remember much about primary school, it was such a long time ago!! :o

[MummaBear03]

If you're not getting paid more to teach at a catholic school then you need to see your principal! :laughing: I definitely got paid more (not much more) but maybe different in Victoria?
My brother works for Cath Ed, his wife works for Ed Qld and she is paid more than he is. He's not working this year other than supply teaching (so obviously earning way way more than her regardless of the school) as he's at Uni doing his Masters Degree. I've worked for Ed Qld and Cath Ed and got paid more working Education Qld but would prefer a slight drop in pay for a nicer work environment and more respectful kids. Not saying kids in public schools are disrespectful, the majority are, but those who aren't are painful. My brother had his arm broken by a year 7 student, cementing his decision not to teach past year 3. Ever. Nothing could be done about it, had he defended himself or restrained the child, he would have gone to jail for assaulting a child :rolleyes: yet the child had no consequences. It was unprovoked and it was while he was doing his Prac while still at Uni. The teacher stepped out to watch from outside without the kids knowing she was watching to see how he and the class went while he delivered that part of class. One of the kids said that since the teacher was gone, they should "get him" and they did. He won't teach in the public sector and he won't teach past year 3. I haven't had such difficult experiences, but the only way I'll work for Education Qld is in the SEU or a Special School. Those kids are lovely and have character and the families are generally more in touch with those kids due to their additional needs than they probably otherwise would have been. Either way the pay is better with Education Qld than with Cath Ed, but with other Private Schools the pay rate depends on that particular school but staff are paid much better at all the ones I know of than they are at Cath Ed or public schools.

[MummaBear03]

When you think about it the differences between literal and symbolic it is very difficult to understand, and I just don't want children to have to learn that from such an early age. In fact I don't think they CAN learn that from such an early age. I often have to teach texts as symbolic from year 7, as this is about as early as they can get it. This is when teaching metaphors is appropriate, not earlier.
Then let's not read them Enid Blyton, Dr. Seuss or Roald Dhahl books either since they are not factual and children might read them as such ;)

[Ffrenchknickers]

Ahh, just typed out a huge post and then lost it, I really don't have the energy today for this.

IN quick response to your response to me.....just because it isnt in your experience doesnt mean it isnt true M2S....and, No I dont live in the wrong neighbourhood lol.

In repsonse to something else you said above, I really dont think that RE is responsible for the falling literacy and numeracy rates....not at all....there are so many reasons for this that seem obvious to me....least of all being 1/2 or RE a week.....:rolleyes:

[mummy2sophie]

Hi there,

Unless I am wrong, evolution has never been known to offer a message of hope to despairing children.
In our Australia, families are breaking apart at an alarming rate & children's hearts are breaking in despair.
This is not something to be brushed away- it's really serious stuff IMO.
You don't have to look overseas for despair, because in many ways it is right here at home.
So, I don't think there's anything wrong with offering a message of hope to Australian Children. It's there to strengthen them!

If you look closely at Christian teaching, it is a message of HOPE to the human spirit.

To focus on hell is to distort the message & to miss the whole point of it all.
You need to look at the WHOLE message in perspective.

In stark contrast, evolution offers nothing but emptiness to the human spirit. If it had something more to offer that would be something.:yes: But it doesn't.

So i think that is why Christianity is in our schools.
For those kids that are silently suffering and might desperately need it and find comfort in it, in a world that cares less & less.
Otherwise there would be only evolution and that never helped anyone.

Evolution is not meant to "bring hope" it is a factual scientific subject. The study of diseases or Australian History (this one is particularly depressing) is not about hope either. These are teaching facts not about providing hope. Hope comes from home, it should be a happy, safe, fun place to go to every evening.

Well it seems that scripture classes have been around for awhile. And yes the divorce rate is increasing and children are getting depressed...yet has scriptures helped? obviously not, people who as children had scripture classes are getting divorced in droves.

I don't want my child getting comfort from something that isn't true and isn't real. My love for my daughters and my interest in them is what brings them comfort. Not some non-existent entity.

[mummy2sophie]

In repsonse to something else you said above, I really dont think that RE is responsible for the falling literacy and numeracy rates....not at all....there are so many reasons for this that seem obvious to me....least of all being 1/2 or RE a week.....:rolleyes:

I didn't say it was responsible. I was just saying that these kids needs as much time with regular lessons as possible. And this extra time would help with literacy and numeracy.

I'm sure that people are bullied on matter of faith. It's just that I've never heard of it (not just me but as a teacher - and I'm actually a "with it" teacher who has counselled many students on a whole variety of bullying difficulties.

[mummy2sophie]

Then let's not read them Enid Blyton, Dr. Seuss or Roald Dhahl books either since they are not factual and children might read them as such ;)

Ok i'm not big on Enid Blyton but I LOVE Dr Seuss and Dahl. :D

The difference is that these stories are told as fiction, teachers or parents, or people do not say that they are true stories.

Even though I was aware they weren't true, I still listened out for the BFG when I was a kid....didn't you?

[mummy2sophie]

My brother works for Cath Ed, his wife works for Ed Qld and she is paid more than he is. He's not working this year other than supply teaching (so obviously earning way way more than her regardless of the school) as he's at Uni doing his Masters Degree. I've worked for Ed Qld and Cath Ed and got paid more working Education Qld but would prefer a slight drop in pay for a nicer work environment and more respectful kids. Not saying kids in public schools are disrespectful, the majority are, but those who aren't are painful. My brother had his arm broken by a year 7 student, cementing his decision not to teach past year 3. Ever. Nothing could be done about it, had he defended himself or restrained the child, he would have gone to jail for assaulting a child :rolleyes: yet the child had no consequences. It was unprovoked and it was while he was doing his Prac while still at Uni. The teacher stepped out to watch from outside without the kids knowing she was watching to see how he and the class went while he delivered that part of class. One of the kids said that since the teacher was gone, they should "get him" and they did. He won't teach in the public sector and he won't teach past year 3. I haven't had such difficult experiences, but the only way I'll work for Education Qld is in the SEU or a Special School. Those kids are lovely and have character and the families are generally more in touch with those kids due to their additional needs than they probably otherwise would have been. Either way the pay is better with Education Qld than with Cath Ed, but with other Private Schools the pay rate depends on that particular school but staff are paid much better at all the ones I know of than they are at Cath Ed or public schools.


Teaching is a tough job. Your poor brother. :no:
Public schools are really really rough. I taught in a couple of rough public schools during my teaching rounds and vowed never to teach in one again (lucky I haven't had to).

But the pay is a huge incentive. I've worked at Kings School in Sydney and they paid me a massive amount to teach there (more pressure too). It was brilliant too, the most polite and lovely, and smart kids I've ever met.

[mummy2sophie]

:laughing: Well done M2S, you have just described perfectly what most Christians and Christian kids go through on a daily basis:yes:

I posted this earlier and didn't get any response:

"I think separating students on the basis of their faith causes rifts within the classroom. Imagine my daughter was the only one withdrawn from the scriptures class. Immediately all students can categorise each other. Is this something we want to encourage at such an early age?"

Was wondering if you'd want to avoid having scriptures classes taught since bullies can immediately identify who is christian and who is not? Surely this would lessen who gets bullied on basis of religion??

[missie_mack]

If we were to base what we taught children only on what is fact and what is not many things taught to children at school is based on theories that many believe to be true based on study but cannot be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I guess however when those of no religious faith make up the majority instead of the minority the practice of teaching religion may change but until the do it would seem in the best interest of reaching the happy medium that the minority be removing from the class if it so offends instead of the majority missing out because of a small minority.

Just a reminder. You have already stated previously we shouldn't limit what is taught in schools in order to not offend.

[mummy2sophie]

If we were to base what we taught children only on what is fact and what is not many things taught to children at school is based on theories that many believe to be true based on study but cannot be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I guess however when those of no religious faith make up the majority instead of the minority the practice of teaching religion may change but until the do it would seem in the best interest of reaching the happy medium that the minority be removing from the class if it so offends instead of the majority missing out because of a small minority.

Just a reminder. You have already stated previously we shouldn't limit what is taught in schools in order to not offend.

This last paragraph I'm confused about. Can you clarify the relevance please?

You can't prove anything without a shadow of doubt. let's instead talk about "reasonable doubt". It is reasonable to believe in gravity, dna, carbon dating, evolution and space, even though these things cannot be proven without a shadow of doubt.

It's odd to hear you want to teach religion (the most easily doubtable theory of them all) and yet not want things taught that are without a shadow of doubt.

It doesn't matter what the majority of the country's religious beliefs are, the fact is: we are a secular society and as a secular society there should be no religion (or politics) in schools, hospitals or any other public service. We don't teach politics in schools either. Would you have a problem with your local Labor member coming in to the school to talk about politics as s/he sees it?

If suddenly we had a huge influx of jehovah's witnesses and they were the majority of australians, we wouldn't just pack up the red cross and say "no more blood transfusions" because it would be against the majority of religious believers in that country. That would be ridiculous.

[Kazamataz]

I heard a little while back about how there is some teaching of christianity in public schools. It would be no surprise to you as an atheist and an Australian (aren't we supposed to accept all religions and beliefs?) that I find this absolutely abhorrent. :shame:

But it leads to an interesting question: how do you know if the school you are sending your child teaches religion? :confused:

I'm obviously talking about public schools, I have no issue with private religious schools teaching religion (well actually I do - but that's another topic). I don't want my daughters taught christianity, certainly not without my consent. If it were a worldwide religion and philosophy subject I would have absolutely no problem with that. I just think children are so impressionable and I don't want my daughter to have faith pushed on her in any way.

Anyone have any further information? How can I choose a school where I know that religion will not be taught?

I haven't read the whole thread but you should be able to opt your children out of religious education simply by signing a form. When looking to enrol your children in school ask the principal what they teach as far a Christianity or any religion goes.

[MummaBear03]

We as a country are Christian and cannot change the entire way of teaching on those who are not. The fact is, if we were not a religious country, then days such as Good Friday would not be held in such high regard by so many people. Nothing is open Good Friday, even those places that are open on other public holidays. We are a Christian nation, and it will be taught in schools until such time as this changes. Don't hold your breath because I don't think it's going to change any time soon, but be grateful that you can say you don't want your kids going to RE classes, that hasn't been optional for very long at all. I worked for Education Qld about 8 years ago and it was compulsory for all students at that time. I've worked for Ed Qld since, but in SEU and special schools, not in mainstream education.

[MummaBear03]

Ok i'm not big on Enid Blyton but I LOVE Dr Seuss and Dahl. :D

The difference is that these stories are told as fiction, teachers or parents, or people do not say that they are true stories.

Even though I was aware they weren't true, I still listened out for the BFG when I was a kid....didn't you?
I've never actually been told that any story from the Bible was a "true" story, only ever was told what the lesson from it was. Like the Good Samaritan story for instance. I think everyone can learn from that one, whether it's true or not it has a valuable lesson in it. It wasn't until high school (in a Catholic school mind you) that it was expected that we took the bible as the truth.

[Kazamataz]

You can't prove anything without a shadow of doubt. let's instead talk about "reasonable doubt". It is reasonable to believe in gravity, dna, carbon dating, evolution and space, even though these things cannot be proven without a shadow of doubt.

It doesn't matter what the majority of the country's religious beliefs are, the fact is: we are a secular society and as a secular society there should be no religion (or politics) in schools, hospitals or any other public service. We don't teach politics in schools either. Would you have a problem with your local Labor member coming in to the school to talk about politics as s/he sees it?

I don't think it is reasonable to believe in evolution, there is a reason they call it the theory of evolution. because it is simply that a theory.
Why can't all views religion and science based be taught?
I think children should be shown all sides of the argument and they can make a more informed opinion.
And we do teach politics in school it's part of social science and depending on the teacher most of the time you'll get them presenting some kind of bias.

[missie_mack]

We don't teach politics in schools either. Would you have a problem with your local Labor member coming in to the school to talk about politics as s/he sees it?

No I wouldnt. Nor would I have a problem with a member of the Greens, Family First, Liberal, or any other political party come into the school to educate the children of their stance and what they believe in. And let me assure you that political parties do come into schools, give talks :yes: and the history of these parties is taught.

Similarly despite I myself being a Catholic I am not against my children listening to other religions talks or attended their church services. I myself attended a Anglican preschool even though I was never likely to convert or change my faith. Oh and I wouldnt be against a athiest coming to my childrens primary school either :no: Similarily I wouldnt advocate or encourage a witch hunt to have athiest teachers removed from schools of religious origins.

As for science your not educating me in anything I dont understand. My husband has been a scientist in physics and chemistry fields for going on a decade before retraining to be a high school teacher last year.... and shock horror he teaches in a religious school too lol. I dont actually wish to have these things removed from education but simply are highlighting that many things outside of religion are taught as truths based simply on theories. How many times are children told in the media and at schools that by eating fruit and vegetables they will live a long life?? Or smoking kills?? Nice theory but it too can be disproved with antedotal evidence and obviously doesn't apply to 100% of the population.

And yes if the majority of Australians were against blood donation/transfusion it should be considered having the service minimised as the government policy should be for the majority not the minority.

IMO Educating our children about other faiths (or lack there of) promotes tolerance and appreciation for others beliefs despite not being the same as our own. Not forgetting the impact religion has and has had on society, culture and history. And while I believe this I also believe it is your right to not have your child educated in these areas :)

As for my last paragraph. You stated earlier that you believe that just because things taught in public schools offend some (I believe the example at the time was evolution :confused:) doesn't mean it should be removed because of the minority. To apply this theology to those which suit your cause but not to those which dont seems a little hypocritical IMO.

[MummaBear03]

No I wouldnt. Nor would I have a problem with a member of the Greens, Family First, Liberal, or any other political party come into the school to educate the children of their stance and what they believe in. And let me assure you that political parties do come into schools, give talks :yes: and the history of these parties is taught.
This is true. Despite being highly political and having my daughter involved in political things (Labor but also Greens since Labor have strong Green undertones to it as well) it would be of benefit to her to learn about other political parties and what they stand for, but she'd still be learning at home what I was teaching her. It's up to the parents to teach children what they want them to learn, and having it taught in schools is only going to open their minds a little bit to how other people live, not convert them.

[OJandMe]

maybe the problem in our society is that the majority have no religious beliefs.....

Crime rates rising, children's rudeness and rebellion rising, immorailty rising, teenage drinking rising, responsibility dropping, accountability dropping....

food for thought....

I personally believe lack of faith is a big player.......

And your child does not have to attend RE classes... you can ask for them to be removed if you feel that strongly about it.

[SixtiesChild]

Evolution is not meant to "bring hope" it is a factual scientific subject. The study of diseases or Australian History (this one is particularly depressing) is not about hope either. These are teaching facts not about providing hope. Hope comes from home, it should be a happy, safe, fun place to go to every evening.

Well it seems that scripture classes have been around for awhile. And yes the divorce rate is increasing and children are getting depressed...yet has scriptures helped? obviously not, people who as children had scripture classes are getting divorced in droves.

I don't want my child getting comfort from something that isn't true and isn't real. My love for my daughters and my interest in them is what brings them comfort. Not some non-existent entity.


I was implying that there are many Australian children from broken homes that are suffering and in despair for many reasons, an unstable family life that isn't going to change for them any time soon.
So, There is little hope in a non-fullfilling family life for these kids. So HOPE is much sought after and longed for.
These kids cannot always go home and find stability that is unchanging.
But you brushed that away by saying that scripture can't help them etc....

The beauty of RE in public schools is that you don't have to subscribe to it, if you don't want to.
Is that not enough for you?

[purplefairy]

I havnt read all the posts on this thread but this is my opinion.
You can blame alot of things for crime rate, teenage drinking, poverty, drugs etc. Society as a whole is to blame for one. The fact our world has changed so so in such a short space of time over the last 100 years or since world war 1 and 2. The fact that as parents we have to work more hours than our parents did to give our kids a better life, to put food on the table and pay for petrol and CHILDCARE for one!!!!! You just have to look at statistics to see how the family life and family structure suffers because of the expectation and need for both parents to work and in most cases more than a 40 hour week. When this is happening what are our children doing? Filling the void with TV food Drugs Sex, what ever. You could also blame the media and the amount of information and messages that they and we are exposed too.
Just look at our world today and tell me that if you were to teach kids that Jesus exists in OUR multicultural society, how the hell would it help them or help the multicultural, multi dervise family structures that make up Australian society? Telling a muslum kid that Jesus exists and is our savior is going to confuse the hell out of him and probably cause some anger and feelings of his beliefs and traditions not being honoured. It will cause more problems than its worth.
I for one really think instead of teaching children religion maybe they should be teaching them practical skills , substanable living and self esteem that will actually help them get along in our society so they dont become lost. Teaching them about their individuality and empowering them will help our world more in the long run than teaching them about Religion.
Leave it up to each childs family to teach about culture and religion, it is really bias and unfair to take the teachings of religion out of the hands of the families , and morally wrong. As parents we need to monitor and beaware of the information our child recieves ,especially to do with our cultural moral religous beliefs.

I remember this crazy scripture lady telling us that the devil put messages on the records so when you played them backwards he would try and take your soul and that MR Ed had messages from the devil. WTF? I had nightmare forever. It really impacted me. I was scared forever after that. I really think it should be left in the hands of parents, they are the ones who have the right to know whats best for their child and know the correct way to bring religious teachings and information into a childs life.

[mummy2sophie]

We as a country are Christian and cannot change the entire way of teaching on those who are not. The fact is, if we were not a religious country, then days such as Good Friday would not be held in such high regard by so many people. Nothing is open Good Friday, even those places that are open on other public holidays. We are a Christian nation, and it will be taught in schools until such time as this changes. Don't hold your breath because I don't think it's going to change any time soon, but be grateful that you can say you don't want your kids going to RE classes, that hasn't been optional for very long at all. I worked for Education Qld about 8 years ago and it was compulsory for all students at that time. I've worked for Ed Qld since, but in SEU and special schools, not in mainstream education.

No we are a secular country as held legally in our constitution. Our constitution says that religion and state are seperate and shall remain that way. I find it abysmal that our constitution says one thing and the practise is another.

I think it should change and I plan to write letter and badger a few people about it because in a secular nation we should not have religion taught in primary schools.

[mummy2sophie]

I don't think it is reasonable to believe in evolution, there is a reason they call it the theory of evolution. because it is simply that a theory.
Why can't all views religion and science based be taught?
I think children should be shown all sides of the argument and they can make a more informed opinion.
And we do teach politics in school it's part of social science and depending on the teacher most of the time you'll get them presenting some kind of bias.

Please read the rest of the thread. I have defined the term "theory" already.

All views on religion cannot be taught because we already have a packed curriculum. I don't believe they can form an objective opinion until much much later. Yes but social science is a high school subject. In fact if scriptures was a high school subject I wouldn't mind nearly as much. But because it is primary school that is where I have a problem. Kids in high school understand bias, primary school kids do not.

[mummy2sophie]

maybe the problem in our society is that the majority have no religious beliefs.....

Crime rates rising, children's rudeness and rebellion rising, immorailty rising, teenage drinking rising, responsibility dropping, accountability dropping....

food for thought....

I personally believe lack of faith is a big player.......

And your child does not have to attend RE classes... you can ask for them to be removed if you feel that strongly about it.

Hang on a second. SOme of you are saying that we should follow the majority in their religious beliefs and teach scriptures. And now there's this???? well which way is it?

I think all the problems you have listed above is due to a variety of complicated reasons. Govt not taking responsibility for various wrongdoings is one.

[mummy2sophie]

The beauty of RE in public schools is that you don't have to subscribe to it, if you don't want to.
Is that not enough for you?

No it isn't. I have a fundamental problem with a secular society teaching such young impressionable children about religion. And furthermore, that this is done through volunteers, not professionals with little to no guidelines or curriculum.

It's the principle of it, not the fact that I can pull my children out of it.

[mummy2sophie]

Purplefairy: I couldn't have put that better myself. :yelclap:

Exactly my thoughts. When you have people that need to be able to negotiate a salary and benefits (because unions are being squeezed out), where do we teach this kind of thing? I am all for teaching constructive criticism, how to accept each other.

How can you have a class on bullying and how children are supposed to stick together and help each other and then say, oh you of this faith go here and those that don't want it go here. :confused: This is not building a classroom of kids that help each other, this is segreggating them.

[mummy2sophie]

No I wouldnt. Nor would I have a problem with a member of the Greens, Family First, Liberal, or any other political party come into the school to educate the children of their stance and what they believe in. And let me assure you that political parties do come into schools, give talks :yes: and the history of these parties is taught.

I dont actually wish to have these things removed from education but simply are highlighting that many things outside of religion are taught as truths based simply on theories. How many times are children told in the media and at schools that by eating fruit and vegetables they will live a long life?? Or smoking kills?? Nice theory but it too can be disproved with antedotal evidence and obviously doesn't apply to 100% of the population.

And yes if the majority of Australians were against blood donation/transfusion it should be considered having the service minimised as the government policy should be for the majority not the minority.


You SHOULD have a problem with a political party member visiting your school, unless opposing members visit also. Aren't you worried that a Liberal member (or any member really) is going to dictate what they believe in as truth?? I would be.

As for the last paragraph, are you for real? That people's lives would be at risk to cater for the majority of the population's religious beliefs?


Yes kids can learn that facts and truths are based on theories. But this is appropriate for high school level only. primary school children would simply be confused by that notion. In the meantime we tell kids not to smoke and eat their vegies because that is proven to be what is best for them.

Just about ANYTHING can be disproven with anecdotal evidence. THis is why anecdotal evidence is not accepted in a court of law.

[MummaBear03]

You don't work in public schools. Your children don't attend public schools yet. How exactly do you know this is such a terrible thing?

I have a fundamental problem with a lot of things such as fast food places, but they are there and I have to live with that fact that they will continue to wreak havoc on the nation and the world as a whole and educate those around as to why they are bad and privately not go to those places which exist because of the "majority" so why can't you accept that religion is there for the majority and you can simply tell your children what you believe and have them not attend.

[mummy2sophie]

You don't work in public schools. Your children don't attend public schools yet. How exactly do you know this is such a terrible thing?

why can't you accept that religion is there for the majority and you can simply tell your children what you believe and have them not attend.

Religion is a private matter that should be kept private. My non-beliefs are kept private (my kids won't know I'm atheist unless they ask). I don't want to have the faith discussion with my children until they are old enough to fully understand it and be objective about it. As a child I didn't choose my religion. It was pressed upon me. Imagine the confusion, wasted hours in church and prayer that I could have avoided if I were allowed to choose my own beliefs in my own time.

I want people to choose their religious beliefs when they are fully capable of doing so. And children are not capable.

It is a terrible thing because it is our children and they are vulnerable and impressionable. We can see from some people's experiences here that the teaching of scripture has been horrifying. I just don't see the benefits outweigh the (very real) possible harms.

[MummaBear03]

Religion is a private matter that should be kept private. My non-beliefs are kept private (my kids won't know I'm atheist unless they ask). I don't want to have the faith discussion with my children until they are old enough to fully understand it and be objective about it. As a child I didn't choose my religion. It was pressed upon me. Imagine the confusion, wasted hours in church and prayer that I could have avoided if I were allowed to choose my own beliefs in my own time.

I want people to choose their religious beliefs when they are fully capable of doing so. And children are not capable.

It is a terrible thing because it is our children and they are vulnerable and impressionable. We can see from some people's experiences here that the teaching of scripture has been horrifying. I just don't see the benefits outweigh the (very real) possible harms.
Then tell them you don't want your children to be exposed to it. But in all honesty the only way you can truly do that is by removing them from society itself because it's on the tv, in the newspapers, discussed in the streets, and it will be spoken about in schools whether it's a class or not because kids who are religious will still attend public schools and discuss what happened in church on sunday.

[purplefairy]

You don't work in public schools. Your children don't attend public schools yet. How exactly do you know this is such a terrible thing?

I have a fundamental problem with a lot of things such as fast food places, but they are there and I have to live with that fact that they will continue to wreak havoc on the nation and the world as a whole and educate those around as to why they are bad and privately not go to those places which exist because of the "majority" so why can't you accept that religion is there for the majority and you can simply tell your children what you believe and have them not attend.

Because excepting Religion for the majority is looking at our society through narrow minded view. We are multi cultural and it is about time we all accepted it and looked around to see how many different religions and diversities are at practice in Australia, that there is nothing wrong with that, that makes us who we are and that we should all accept each other and each others belief structures and NOT take that out of the family into the schools and teach a generic culturally dominated spam of teachings that maybe even some Christian Families dont want their children to be part of. I think on the scale of whats important to teach in schools for Now and the future of our children religion is not one of the top priorities we all should be looking at!

[MummaBear03]

Because excepting Religion for the majority is looking at our society through narrow minded view. We are multi cultural and it is about time we all accepted it and looked around to see how many different religions and diversities are at practice in Australia, that there is nothing wrong with that, that makes us who we are and that we should all accept each other and each others belief structures and NOT take that out of the family into the schools and teach a generic culturally dominated spam of teachings that maybe even some Christian Families dont want their children to be part of. I think on the scale of whats important to teach in schools for Now and the future of our children religion is not one of the top priorities we all should be looking at!
I am of the strong belief that teaching about religious beliefs belongs in schools. They are not pushing one religion onto the children, and it's not a compulsory subject either. They teach about many religions and I learnt enough about Muslims while in primary school to know that people of that faith were not responsible for terrorism, it's the extremists that claim to be of that faith which is in fact very peaceful. Had it not been for what I was taught in Grade 3 in school, I may be like many other people in Australia and the US who blame Muslims for it all. I think it teaches diversity, they are not out to convert children and the fact remains that children only attend if the parents sign a consent form. They have other things on in schools I don't particularly approve of either but school is not individualised unless you home school or attend a very, very elite private school where they can personalise things.

[SalTheGal]

Whilst mosying along following this thread i have realised something that I find quite amusing....

I have a big problem with people judging something they know nothing about....

M2S your opening post mentioned that you had 'heard' a while back that there are religious teachings in school....now 20 odd pages later we are still having the discussion over the appropriateness of something that you haven't even witnessed nor truly understand the complete nature of.

You do not know the curriculum offered, you do not know the qualifications of the teachers, you do not know who participates and who doesnt, you do not know which religions even take part- for all we know maybe they do have an "athiest" session in some schools.

Perhaps a good place to start would be to trundle off to your local public school and ask to sit in on a few of these sessions so that you can make an informed judgement, and base your opinions on that.:yes:

Until someone has actually researched something enough to make an educated decision about its appropriateness, I don't think you should have such a strong opinion!

You can talk about anecdotal evidence and stories related from the "friend of a friend of a freind" all you like....but it has no basis except for heresay.

You know- just thought I'd put it out there as food for thought.

[mummy2sophie]

Whilst mosying along following this thread i have realised something that I find quite amusing....

I have a big problem with people judging something they know nothing about....

M2S your opening post mentioned that you had 'heard' a while back that there are religious teachings in school....now 20 odd pages later we are still having the discussion over the appropriateness of something that you haven't even witnessed nor truly understand the complete nature of.

You do not know the curriculum offered, you do not know the qualifications of the teachers, you do not know who participates and who doesnt, you do not know which religions even take part- for all we know maybe they do have an "athiest" session in some schools.

Perhaps a good place to start would be to trundle off to your local public school and ask to sit in on a few of these sessions so that you can make an informed judgement, and base your opinions on that.:yes:

Until someone has actually researched something enough to make an educated decision about its appropriateness, I don't think you should have such a strong opinion!

You can talk about anecdotal evidence and stories related from the "friend of a friend of a freind" all you like....but it has no basis except for heresay.

You know- just thought I'd put it out there as food for thought.


I actually know quite a great deal on this topic. I was previously unaware that religion was taught at primary schools and then a friend of mine whose daughter attends a school mentioned in passing that she attends the scriptures class so I ask what that is and she tells me that the kids learn about jesus and god at school. :eek:

Others have posted here what the curriculum prescribes on the subject and who can teach it (see earlier posts - including something someone copied and pasted from the BOS website, which appears to check out). Which to me makes it even worse (that it is taught by volunteers, not by a qualified teacher.

But my greatest expertise comes from what I know about children's brains from all my studies when I was getting my diploma of education. And what I have learned is that children have little understanding of the difference between literal and figurative, between opinion and objectivity. Thus it is not appropriate for children to learn about god at a public institution. If an adult tells them at school that god exists then they believe it. Have YOU gained a diploma of education at university??? Do you have teaching experience?

Here's the thing. I don't CARE who teaches it or how it is taught, I don't even care if they do have an atheist slant, I have no interest in these details and I have no interest in going to a school and seeing a class in action. It doesn't matter what they teach in this subject, I don't have to witness it, because the principle of teaching religion in primary school is wrong. As I said previously, I don't care if this is taught gently by some old lady from the local church or even if they include other religions (although I'm guessing that it is christianity that is primarily taught here). Primary school age is simply too young to be learning about any religion.

[naiwen]

mummy2sophie I do not have time for a long post but just wanted to say I agree with almost everything you have said!

Australia is a secular country which therefore means that teaching scripture in public schools is wrong and should be stopped. Religion has no place in public schools, hospitals or politics.

I find it very wrong for people to say, christians are the majority so we should keep scripture classes! The whole point of being a multicultural society is that we are accepting of other faiths ie not segregating them so that christian children can learn about the bible.

Church and state should be separate, end of story IMO

[mummy2sophie]

you rock. :cool:

I find it amazing that the US does this better than us. Especially considering they are such a religious country.

[RedPanda]

Closed. Please remember not to retaliate in threads. If you find a post offensive, please report it using the red triangle at the top of the box. Retaliatory comments may attract infractions/warnings as appropriate.