View Full Version : Is It Harmful Or Humiliating?
We have had a problem recently with our 10 year old swearing at us in public (top of her voice in Bunnings Warehouse), in front of friends, at school, really anywhere that it will embarrass us the most. For months we tried time out, time in, quiet time, taking her favourite clothes away, taking her favourite toys away, not giving her desert, not giving her favourite food to eat... It did not change her behaviour.
DH had a brilliant idea, for each time she swore at us, she would get a drop of tobasco sauce on a spoon and she had to take it (we did not force her). After one go of the tobasco, she has not sworn at us again (been over a month).
We have since been told that such an act is not only harmful, but also humiliating for the child.
We are calm people, we did not give this discpline out in anger, it was an attempt to stop bad behaviour, what do you think? Were we wrong to do this??
MammaMia
29-03-2006, 22:36
Q. Did it hurt her? Long term harm?
A. Guess her mouth would have felt that burning sensation for the short term.
Q. Was it humiliating?
A. Was it done in front of you & DH alone - doesn't sound like it was humiliating. Granted unpleasant - but unless I am mistaken the purposes of punishment is about unpleasant consequences for actions.
Q. Have I been in your shoes and dealt with your child as best I can, knowing her temperament, loving her and wanting to teach her a lesson that will keep her in good stead for the rest of her life?
A. Nope.
My answer: don't dwell on it. Put it in perspective. As parents, we do the best we can with what we have. Sometimes we get it right, sometimes we get it wrong. We're human. But the point to remember is this: you act in love with the best interests of your child at heart. It's all we can do. I'm not going to judge your decision...you're her parents. ;)
Thank you MamaMia, that was a very respectful response, I appreciate it!
Baby Girl
29-03-2006, 22:39
It seems to have worked!!
No two people will ever fully agree on the ways discipline should be carried out.
If it worked for you and she understands why then I can't see any long term bad effects being present. Well, she may never like tabasco. At 10 she is old enough to understand that she had ignored other punishments and kept swearing so there is likely to be other attempts at discipline, you guys just came up with an inventive one.
I don't think I would do it but I don't think you should beat yourself up about it either.
I think it's just the same as parents making their children bite down on a piece of soap. My parents did this to me once because I called my sister a 'cow'! I never called her it again!
I don't think there is anything wrong with what you did. Now if it had been done infront of a whole room full of people (mine was) I can see how that could be called harmful,
You are doing what you think is best, and as long as you have her best interest at heart and you seem to be of a sane mind, well, don't you worry bout it.
Interesting punishment, I can see how it would work! I had my mouth washed out with soap once or twice...not pleasant.
Mister Noodle
29-03-2006, 22:55
I don't see how it's any less *harmful* than a slap in the face. Neither one is going to to them any lasting harm. Both are the deliberate infliction of pain upon your child.
Do you feel differently about one than you do the other?
Why?
Baby Girl
30-03-2006, 02:11
To me, a slap in the face is loss of control usually triggered by anger or frustration - whether administered to an adult or a child.
Tabasco sauce is pre-meditated (so to speak) and maybe painful and in this case effective, but I don't think it compares to a slap in the face - physically or emotionally.
Supermum
30-03-2006, 09:27
Maghan - I don't have a 10 year old - your 10 year old ... so I honestly don't know what I would do. Probably the same things you did to begin with and then resort to something out of the ordinary ... just like you did.
I had my mouth washed out with soap at aged 4 for swearing. I remember what I said, I knew it was wrong and I copped the punishment. I was embarrassed but I didn't say that word again until I was in my twenties:) I don't feel the experience has scarred me for life and I have a beautiful relationship with my mother.
I don't see how it's any less *harmful* than a slap in the face. Neither one is going to to them any lasting harm. Both are the deliberate infliction of pain upon your child.
What would you do Mister Noodle in the same situation? How would you have handled your prepubescent, defiant 10 year old?
You know what ... if it turns out that there is a more effective way of dealing with this behaviour, you live and learn. Parenting is not an exact science and we can't always get it right. :hugs:
Mister Noodle
30-03-2006, 11:40
My mum never smacked, confiscated or indeed, punished.
She used The Voice. You know the one. The Voice that freezes your heart inside your chest, and leaves you obeying before you've even realised you were going to.
Think of a cross between Supernanny and scary-Galadriel (from the LOTR movie). Or if you've read the Dune series, you'll know exactly what I mean.
If you managed to continue regardless (which took serious cojones, let me tell you), she'd calmly and relentlessly explain exactly how much extra work you were causing, what she needed to be doing instead, how far we were behind on the rent, and exactly how you were making it worse... and generally dumped a boatload of pure anxiety down the back of your neck - so all the fun went out of acting up, there and then
We were DAMN well-behaved kids. Nothing was worth that.
What tactics do you use with your children?
My mum never smacked, confiscated or indeed, punished.
She used The Voice. You know the one. The Voice that freezes your heart inside your chest, and leaves you obeying before you've even realised you were going to.
Think of a cross between Supernanny and scary-Galadriel (from the LOTR movie). Or if you've read the Dune series, you'll know exactly what I mean.
If you managed to continue regardless (which took serious cojones, let me tell you), she'd calmly and relentlessly explain exactly how much extra work you were causing, what she needed to be doing instead, how far we were behind on the rent, and exactly how you were making it worse... and generally dumped a boatload of pure anxiety down the back of your neck - so all the fun went out of acting up, there and then
We were DAMN well-behaved kids. Nothing was worth that.
Baby Girl
30-03-2006, 15:06
If you managed to continue regardless (which took serious cojones, let me tell you), she'd calmly and relentlessly explain exactly how much extra work you were causing, what she needed to be doing instead, how far we were behind on the rent, and exactly how you were making it worse... and generally dumped a boatload of pure anxiety down the back of your neck - so all the fun went out of acting up, there and then:rolleyes: Guilt is a much better punishment - Absolutely!!
Mister Noodle
30-03-2006, 16:07
What tactics do you use with your children?
I give it a good hard stare, and explain that kicking my wife in the uterus from the inside is just plain mean.
I give it a good hard stare, and explain that kicking my wife in the uterus from the inside is just plain mean.
:laughing: Sounds like it needs a good whipping with a stick - I dont condone this once they're born, but these crazy foetus's need to be cracked into line every so often.......... :laughing:
Mister Noodle
30-03-2006, 16:38
Nah, I just make one of my famous curries....
Mister Noodle
30-03-2006, 16:58
As for the anxiety thing - first up, there's a difference between guilt and anxiety. It's not as though we were raised catholic...
Second, it was always very definitely "*while* you continue to do this, I cant' get any work done, and so..." - thus always giving us a simple out.
I fully agree that just dumping guilt, stress or a hopeless situation on a child would be unacceptable. But just making their own bad behaviour their problem strikes me as something significantly different.
The thing that made it deadly effective was the fact that it was always completely true. She'd never make stuff up, or exaggerate. It was just a case of making us choose between adult authority and adult responsibilities. We could opt out of the behaviour and not have to worry about anything, or we could keep it up, and know precisely what would happen. I'm not talking "consequences" (aka threats) - we'd never have respected that. Just plain old results.
And of course, this was all reserved for actual defiance. First line of defense was always plain and simple Absolute Power - and if you knew her, you'd know that standing up to that was like standing up to an oncoming ocean liner.
I still have to wonder how exposing your children to reality is bad, but hitting them is good...
(weird tangent: did anyone here see Pleasantville?)
Mr Noodle, I believe you were the one who brought up slapping a child. No one has condoned it.
the_queen
30-03-2006, 18:11
For my 0.02c worth.... Just wanted to add that I hope I'm never in a situation where the only solution I can think of is to put hot sauce on my kid's tongue.
I think too often we (parents) punish the behaviour, when maybe we should be trying to find out the cause of the behaviour.
A drug addict who steals a DVD player, and then gets a whippin' for the stealing.... he still has the addiction which drove him to steal in the first place, and so he'll probably do it again. He'll just be more careful not to get caught. That's a far-flung analogy, but the principle is the same. Why does a child scream obscenities at his parents in public?? I would want to know what has caused this behaviour, and deal with the root issue so that the behaviour won't happen again.
A paraphrased quote from a Dharma and Greg episode (they were looking after Greg's teenage niece, who had snuck out her bedroom window to go out without permission):
Greg: You're going to take her shopping as punishment for sneaking out?
Dharma: No, I'm going to hang out with her and boost her self-esteem so she hopefully doesn't feel the need to sneak out again.
JMO. Maghan asked for our opinions, and this was mine. :)
You're very smart Queenie. :)
I don't know what I'd do with a swearing ten year old to be honest. Especially after trying every other darn thing to stop it. I feel for you Maghan! Must be frustrating, and I guess it's good that it's stopped.
I have heard of mothers putting chilli on their kids tongues when they are very, very small and I think that is just wrong! But perhaps at 10 if it works as a deterrant and nothing else does....?
this is probably going to ark people up but it is NOT intended to.
my daughter (she is 7) swore at me when i asked her to do something about 2 months ago and i told her to go into the bathroom and to bite the soap. (she did pmsl) she has never sworn again as she thought she would be "smart " and bite the soap to show me see its nothing but even 10 mins later she was complaining of the taste and trying to drink as much water as she could to get it out of her mouth.pmsl i never actually forced it into her mouth.
yet a friend of hers at school (there are 4 or 5 kids all up)
whenever there children play up as in swear or backchat they use liquid soap because (and i quote from her: "it gets throughout the mouth a lot quicker" this supposedly works for a little while but i personally do not think i could tell my kids that if theya re naughty they can suck on the liquid soap iykwim(lol)
I don't see how it's any less *harmful* than a slap in the face. Neither one is going to to them any lasting harm. Both are the deliberate infliction of pain upon your child.
Do you feel differently about one than you do the other?
Why?
Mr Noodle, I'm not entering into a debate with you, you can take your anthropological study back to the christianity thread. Thanks for your opinion though!
Mr Noodle, I'm not entering into a debate with you, you can take your anthropological study back to the christianity thread. Thanks for your opinion though!
Pure Class :yelclap:
Maghan, I know from your other posts here that you seem to be a loving and devoted mum, and having children of a similar age myself I know how extremely frustrating and draining they can sometimes be, I imagine from what I know of you that anything you did would have been thought out and not done in the heat of the moment or designed to embaress your daughter. :)
Thanks everyone for not judging, and I appreciate your opinions. We all go into parenting deciding that we will never do certain things, but sometimes you become inventive in attempt to keep your kids on the straight and narrow. Parenting a teenager is so different to parenting a toddler. The thing they do have in common though is that consequences and consistency are very important. And I do supply both of those in a respectful, loving, happy, non-abusive environment. :thumbsup:
Maghan, keep doing what your'e doing luv:thumbsup: ;)
Those people who havent got children your age cannot not know what you are going through so take their comments with a pinch of salt.:thumbsup:
melfunction
30-03-2006, 20:34
The thing they do have in common though is that consequences and consistency are very important. And I do supply both of those in a respectful, loving, happy, non-abusive environment. :thumbsup:
I have absolutely no doubt that you do Maghan :)
Mister Noodle
30-03-2006, 20:38
Mr Noodle, I believe you were the one who brought up slapping a child. No one has condoned it.
Whoops, in two discipline threads at once. My bad. :o
Replace 'hitting' with 'hurting'.
logan's mum
18-04-2006, 16:14
Let's get back to reality here: I fail to see how sauce, any kind of sauce, could hurt someone???!! It was sauce people! Not smacking, hitting etc. It tasted bad. That's all.
Reality check anyone??
Mister Noodle
18-04-2006, 23:36
Logan's Mum:
Chiles *hurt*, especially if you're not used to them. If you don't believe me, go buy a fresh one from a supermarket (the little skinny short red ones), and bite into it.
We aren't just talking about an unpleasant flavour here. We're talking actual, lasting pain.
Granted, I find tabasco to be right at the bottom of the heat scale, but it's the principle of the thing - and it'd be worse for a little kid.
If it were getting them to... I dunno, crunch up garlic or something, that'd be one thing. Bizarre, and hardly my approach to discipline, but still. The hot sauce on the other hand was chosen quite specifically for the pain it would cause, and yeah, I have issues with that.
misskittyfantastico
18-04-2006, 23:49
So what is your approach to discipline Noodle-man
Mr Noodle, you mentioned earlier in this thread that an alternate, as your mother did, was to systematically instill guilt into her children for every problem in her life and make them feel responsible for them, see i have an issue with that, i imagine a home where children are made to feel secure and once in their life get a dab of tobasco sauce on the tongue for swearing profusely is much preferable over being made to feel day in and day out that all their mothers misery is their fault, but hey, thats just me.
SassyMummy
19-04-2006, 00:47
Good on you for finding something that works!
For anyone who thinks that it's "painful" to use the tabasco sauce, I ask you to re-read the original post. She said A DROP of tabasco sauce on a spoon. ONE DROP. Get over it...that wouldn't cause PAIN to anyone.
I also believe there are far better ways to say you disagree with someone's method of discipline. You don't need to indirectly accuse them of wishing to inflict pain on their child...especially since I am certain that was NOT the intention at all. To suggest so is just over-the-top and uncalled for.
I'd also like to add that, IMO, using A DROP of tabasco sauce is a very reasonable and humane way to get results. Blaming your lifes failings on your children, however, is not.
Mister Noodle
19-04-2006, 01:02
The way I was raised: dominance, not coercion.
As I said elsewhere, you don't train a dog with threats, violence or punishment, so it strikes me as incongruous that you would a child. Nor do you with bribes or bargaining, though small rewards (for behaviour, not actions themselves) don't go astray.
You are the centre of your child's entire universe. You're at the very top of the hierarchy, and they have no emotional shields against you (at least, none worth a damn). That's an awesome responsibility, but it's also absolutely all you ever need, if you don't abuse it.
My mum was one hell of a mother. Did you ever see Sigourney Weaver in Aliens? A lot like that. Scary and tender at the same time. She never punished us ever, for anything. No violence, no reprisals, no taking away posessions or privileges.
This was not because she was light on discipline. Oh dear god no. It was because she didn't need to.
She didn't need threats, and she very rarely even raised her voice. And when she DID raise her voice, she never yelled or screamed - her voice would go through you like a hatpin through butter, but it would be modulated, calm, directed and utterly deadly.
In essence, sitting at the very core: she never lost control. How could she? She WAS control personified. If she told you to do something, she didn't tell you what you SHOULD do, she told you what you WOULD do. You were obeying before you even had time to think about it. You could no more back-talk her than you could back-talk a semitrailer doing 100KPH straight towards you. (Well, you could try, but it would make exactly zero difference either way.)
She was proactive, never reactive. She didn't whine back at us. She didn't make deals - she could afford to let us do as we asked a lot of the time, and be astoundingly kind along with it, precisely because she was so damn secure in her authority.
You don't argue with a dog. You don't hit it, you don't threaten it, you don't try to teach it a lesson. You don't bargain with it, you don't get down to its level to make conflict a valid option for it. You are its owner, you are head of the pack, you are the ultimate source of authority, your word is not just law, it's a law of physics. You are a force of nature, not someone whose authority can be challenged. And because of this, you don't need to be tyrannical, mean, cruel or angry. By being gracious and secure, you just further nail in your position as leader.
Raise any youngling in this environment, don't ever lose control (but don't opress them either - be sane!) and use the astounding amount of power you have to shape their character, not just to order them about - and you end up with a confident, well-behaved adult that behaves well simply because... well because that's just what you do. They aren't constantly testing the limits and trying to see what they can get away with. They don't oscillate wildly between lack of guidance and draconian overcorrection when they go to far - so they don't resent you, and aren't ticking little timebombs of rebellion. They know who's in charge, they have plenty of room to grow, and they're happy and well-adjusted. And they're ready to move into a similar role when the time comes.
It works for dogs, it worked damned well for me and my four sibs.
I just hope I can live up to her legacy for my sprog.
Mister Noodle
19-04-2006, 01:08
Coops: I miscommunicated that before.
It was never guilt. Guilt is beating people over the head with the past that they an never change.
It was (and only in early adolescence, I should point out) a glimpse into the anxieties of the adult world that she was guarding us from. It was a choice: make life worse to the point that consequences would leak through to us, or stop making life worse, and she'd have the resources to keep it not-our-problem.
Mister Noodle
19-04-2006, 01:12
Sassy: so the choice of chile sauce, as opposed to any other disliked flavour, was a complete coincidence, then? The distressing buring sensation (I remember experimenting when I was very little, and I remeber it hurting) never entered anyone's head for a second?
Pardon me if I remain skeptical.
Ana Gram
19-04-2006, 01:31
Mr Noodle, your mothers technique worked for your family but it won't work for everyone, you really have to keep that in mind. It certainly wouldn't work on my child and it wouldn't have worked on me as a child either.
And tabasco sauce wouldn't work for us either as my daughter loves chilli and curry.
Mister Noodle
19-04-2006, 01:50
'chelle,
Indeed, you really need to be a Dom/me and a half to carry it off - I have no idea how well I'll do, but I'll give it a shot.
I was answering MM's question, not suggesting that it suits everyone.
And hell yeah, Beany and I are massive chile-heads, so I really can't imagine the stuff being an effective threat for our kid! :D
mr noodle, i still think having your child live in constant fear, so much so that you only have to look at them to have them cowering, is not the way i would want to raise my children.
i think i will leave this one alone now :)
ButterflyKisses
19-04-2006, 10:25
I'll get back to you in 7 & a bit years as to how I dealt with DS when he's a 10 year old.
In the meantime here's an extract from Dr Phil's website who I have a great deal of respect for and think he has a lot of good valuable advice for parents. Sorry it's a bit long but hope it helps nonetheless.
Age-Appropriate Discipline Techniques
The disciplining techniques parents use should be based on age-appropriate expectations. For example, explaining to a 13-month-old why she is being punished for hitting her sibling isn't going to get you very far if she can't yet understand reasoning. Using guidelines outlined by the American Academy of Family Physicians, Dr. Phil suggests the following discipline techniques and when they are effective to use.
Positive Reinforcement
Focusing on good behavior instead of bad behavior. Parental attention is one of the most powerful forms of positive reinforcement.
Redirecting
This technique literally involves the simple act of redirecting your child to appropriate behavior.
Verbal Instruction/Explanation
Going over what you want your child to do and why can help him/her develop good judgment.
Time-outs
Time-outs involve physically removing your child from a problem situation. Sending your child to a neutral and "boring" area, such as the corner of a room with no toys or television, and ignoring him/her until he/she is calm and quiet. Time-outs should not last longer than five minutes. One minute of time-out per year of life is a good rule of thumb.
Establishing Rules
Explain your rules and be prepared to repeat them until your child learns to follow them on his/her own.
Grounding
A technique effective with school-age children and teenagers, it involves restricting your child to a certain place, usually home or his/her room, as punishment. For example, "grounding" your child on a Saturday night as punishment for breaking curfew on Friday night.
Withholding Privileges
Children should learn that privileges come with responsibility and they need to be earned. In order to be effective, this technique should be used infrequently. A privilege that is valued by the child, such as watching television or playing with friends, should be removed.
Birth to 18 Months
Effective:
1. Positive Reinforcement
2. Redirecting
Ineffective:
1. Verbal Instruction/Explanation
2. Time-outs
3. Establishing Rules
4. Grounding
5. Withholding Privileges
18 Months to 3 Years
Effective:
1. Positive Reinforcement
2. Redirecting
3. Verbal Instruction/Explanation
4. Time-outs
Ineffective:
1. Establishment of Rules
2. Grounding
3. Withholding Privileges
4 to 12 Years
Effective:
1. Positive Reinforcement
2. Redirecting
3. Verbal Instruction/Explanation
4. Time-outs
5. Establishment of Rules
6. Grounding
7. Withholding Privileges
13 to 16 Years
Effective:
1. Positive Reinforcement
2. Verbal Instruction/Explanation
3. Establishment of Rules
4. Grounding
5. Withholding Privileges
Ineffective:
1. Redirecting
2. Time-outs
whatwasithinking
19-04-2006, 13:18
We would get our mouths washed out with soap - I'm still here (I didn't swear when I was young after that but I let the words slip out now and then now I'm an adult)
Mister Noodle
19-04-2006, 18:08
Strange take people seem to have on this.
Does your dog "cower in fear" when it sees you? I'd certainly hope not.
The whole point of a strong leader is that they do not inspire fear. You don't lead people by making them afraid of you. All that gets you is resentment and rebellion, in the long term. It's also a sign that you're really bad at your job. It's like any kind of leadership - if you can only maintain your position with threats, then you're fighting them the whole time, and everyone's energy goes into conflict, not into getting places. It's horribly inefficient.
Come on, hasn't anyone worked for an inept manager who tried to assert control through firing people and generally being an aggressive little ****? They're useless, office morale plummets, nothng gets done, and they end up not getting their way.
It's just as bad as inept managers who just let everything go to pot, and wait until crunch time to try and bail out the situation.
IMHO, parenting styles in the population at large are fairly sharply divided between the two extremes, with very little middle ground.
On the one hand, you get authoritarian tyrants who try to oppress their children into a minimal set of acceptable behaviours by means of constant threats, punishments and yelling.
And on the other, you get nice, friendly parents who utterly fail to control their children until something goes wrong, and who resort to ever-more-desperate, reactive measures to try and correct them afterwards.
It just seems to me that the simplest, least-intervention approach is to keep one figurative hand on the wheel most time, and rely on your pre-existing emotional bond to do the work, rather than just relying on being scary. (an added bonus: it also works when you're not looking)
If you've always been the alpha female, your kids take that fact for granted, and it's just the way their world works. Things hit the ground if you drop them, and if mummy tells you not to do something, then you don't do it. There's no fear involved; the idea of actual defiance simply verges on the unthinkable, end of story.
Logan's Mum:
Chiles *hurt*, especially if you're not used to them. If you don't believe me, go buy a fresh one from a supermarket (the little skinny short red ones), and bite into it.
We aren't just talking about an unpleasant flavour here. We're talking actual, lasting pain.
Granted, I find tabasco to be right at the bottom of the heat scale, but it's the principle of the thing - and it'd be worse for a little kid.
If it were getting them to... I dunno, crunch up garlic or something, that'd be one thing. Bizarre, and hardly my approach to discipline, but still. The hot sauce on the other hand was chosen quite specifically for the pain it would cause, and yeah, I have issues with that.
Mr Noodle at no point did I suggest that the tobasco was used for the pain it would cause. I think this may be your own assumption.
Mr Noodle, you mentioned earlier in this thread that an alternate, as your mother did, was to systematically instill guilt into her children for every problem in her life and make them feel responsible for them, see i have an issue with that, i imagine a home where children are made to feel secure and once in their life get a dab of tobasco sauce on the tongue for swearing profusely is much preferable over being made to feel day in and day out that all their mothers misery is their fault, but hey, thats just me.
Yay to you Coops, I agree. Punishment is just that. No lasting guilt or mention of it. It's over and done with.
Good on you for finding something that works!
For anyone who thinks that it's "painful" to use the tabasco sauce, I ask you to re-read the original post. She said A DROP of tabasco sauce on a spoon. ONE DROP. Get over it...that wouldn't cause PAIN to anyone.
I also believe there are far better ways to say you disagree with someone's method of discipline. You don't need to indirectly accuse them of wishing to inflict pain on their child...especially since I am certain that was NOT the intention at all. To suggest so is just over-the-top and uncalled for.
I'd also like to add that, IMO, using A DROP of tabasco sauce is a very reasonable and humane way to get results. Blaming your lifes failings on your children, however, is not.
And thank you too Sas, I did not mention pain as you pointed out.
One more little thing Mr Noodle-Scoodoodle. Did you say that you haven't parented yet? Let alone a rebellious teenager?? I love your fire for life and that you want to be a great parent, but sometimes it's hard to know unless you've walked the road...
I don't feel the need to give everyone my life story, but I had a hard childhood with a physically abusive parent and I would NEVER intentionally inflict pain on my children. I DO NOT want them to end up in a watchhouse when they're 18 because they think it's acceptable to swear at a person in authority either. The swearing in this instance was a calculated move on her part that was accompanied with hitting, biting, pushing, pinching, punching and spitting in my face. It was not an "oops daisy, that slipped out". It was absolutely disgusting. I did not act in anger, it was a punishment. I ran out of options. Now still to this day she has not acted this way to me. I think it was acceptable in the circumstances.
MammaMia
19-04-2006, 20:56
Maghan... :thumbsup:
And there's that fire deep in your belly which tells you that you've made the right decision in the situation!
I take my hat off to you!
May none of our little people grow up to find themselves in Watchhouses because their parents/carers didn't tackle the hard stuff head on!
All I have left to say is: :yelclap: :yelclap: :yelclap:
Mister Noodle
19-04-2006, 21:00
So, let me get this straight - the punishment was the disliked flavour, and the discomfort (a much nicer word, don't you agree?) of the burning sensation played no part in your choice? Is that your position?
And hey - I may not have walked the road yet, but I've sure as hell BEEN the road. ADHD (unmedicated) and then some, and I've never been in a fight, never been in trouble with the law... never, come to think, punched, kicked or swore at my mum.
I'm just passing on what my mum did, and the fact that it worked.
MammaMia
19-04-2006, 21:05
So, let me get this straight - the punishment was the disliked flavour, and the discomfort (a much nicer word, don't you agree?) of the burning sensation played no part in your choice? Is that your position?
Aah, Mr Noodle, for me..your playful banter holds no credibility now that I have realised you have never encountered an obstinate child in the relationship of child to full-time carer.
Maghan takes the response game, set & match. Beautifully executed, with a slam dunk on the Credibility card.
I've always found it is best to shake hands and concede that the best woman won on the day. :D
Or streak naked across the court and hope that you are remembered not for whether you won or lost but how quickly you flashed across the screen. :D
Mr Noodle, Im sorry, but I cant believe someone who has never yet experienced the joy of a 10 yr old child is asking a very experienced, caring mother, who you do not know, to explain herself to you over and over.
A punishment is not supposed to be something nice, that is the whole point ;)
misskittyfantastico
19-04-2006, 21:08
so, let me get this straight , you haven't had a child? well then:laughing:
Mr Noodle - while you obviously respect and value your mother and the way in which she raised you, it is impossible to determine what you will do in a given situation until you have walked the path yourself. Become a parent, encounter the complicated mix that is love and setting boundaries and trying to get it right at least some of the time, and then get back to us.
In Maghan's case, knowing her, knowing her approach to discipline, to love and to cherishing children, and knowing the composition of her family and the life that some of the children have lead before she became their mother - you cannot presume to insinuate and infer that what she did was wrong, harmful or in anyway unsuitable.
Maghan - it worked, she understands the consequences of chosing to behave that way - doubt she'll do it again! You continue to do an amazing job with your clan.:thumbsup:
And MammaMia - get your streaking butt off the court- the weather is getting chilly out woman!!
misskittyfantastico
19-04-2006, 21:18
Applause:yelclap: :yelclap: :yelclap: :yelclap: Applause
MammaMia
19-04-2006, 21:26
And MammaMia - get your streaking butt off the court- the weather is getting chilly out woman!!
Yes, boss!
Look out, BHers ... the Sheriff is back in town. :D
Mr Noodle, DO NOT ATTACK MY CREDIBILITY AS A MOTHER. Just because you didn't do the wrong thing to your mother is not necessarily a reflection of her parenting, but maybe your own personality.
The way my children act sometimes is not because I am a bad parent. The way they act 99.9% of the time is because I am a fabulous parent who always has strict boundaries and limits with a tonne of love and respect.
I asked for an opinion, and you have given yours ... quite a few times actually. Now please play nicely.
To the other gals here, thank you for being so supportive. You don't know how much it means to me to have your respect and support. :smiliedance:
Mister Noodle
20-04-2006, 18:10
Mr Noodle, DO NOT ATTACK MY CREDIBILITY AS A MOTHER. Just because you didn't do the wrong thing to your mother is not necessarily a reflection of her parenting, but maybe your own personality.
The way my children act sometimes is not because I am a bad parent. The way they act 99.9% of the time is because I am a fabulous parent who always has strict boundaries and limits with a tonne of love and respect.
I asked for an opinion, and you have given yours ... quite a few times actually. Now please play nicely.
To the other gals here, thank you for being so supportive. You don't know how much it means to me to have your respect and support. :smiliedance:
Hey, don't go taking things personally - I'm a born table-thumper, and I can no more pass up a rhetorical hook than a cat can ignore a moth. I'm also pretty passionate on a lot of things - but I don't even know you yet, so I'm hardly going to pass judgement on your abilities.
Come on, you walked into it - and honestly, who could resist? Bringing up your child's utterly intolerable behaviour to prove that your ideas on discipline are better than mine... is going to get you a poke in the ribs, no matter who you are.
Even my mum :D
And you have to admit, that's another tight corner you've painted yourself into - if my behaviour is just a reflection of my nature, rather than my environment, then I must be an adorable little angel, not the grumpy old sod that I'm coming across as. *scratches head* ... mm, nope, HAS to be something wrong there ;)
Conversely, do you really want to ascribe all your children's bad behaviour to a flawed character on their part? Because I'd want asbestos-lined bulletproof body armour and a whip and chair before I even considered the notion, let alone dared suggest such a thing around here. Imagine it! Imagine the response I'd get! :eek:
How come all your daughter's good behaviour is down to your parenting, but all of mine was down to my personality?
No, I haven't raised children yet. But I have been one, and I know how both I and my three siblings responded to both styles of discipline. And I tell you now, we all had an amazing amount more respect for my mum and her way of doing things. Threats did NOT have a good effect on any of us, and it seems strange that that would be a coincidence.
Just to be clear: I really have never intended for any of this to get personal, and I beg you not to take it as such. It's so rare for anyone to actually bite back on anything that I get a bit enthusiastic when it does happen.
(heh, this was the way my dad taught me physics, was rabid table-thumping debates - but that's for another thread, methinks)
misskittyfantastico
20-04-2006, 18:40
No, I haven't raised children yet. But I have been one,
When you've had a child then perhaps you will realise that it's not about you, it's about them.
And just because you've been a child that don't mean ya know sqat about raising them:)
And what could a male obstetrician possibly know about giving birth... :rolleyes:
And what could a male obstetrician possibly know about giving birth... :rolleyes:
Who is an obstetrician? And if you'd have read all the posts you would know that the topic is not about giving birth, it is about disciplining a 10 yr old.:rolleyes:
poshBecks
20-04-2006, 20:56
:laughing: Wow!!!
Anyways... the tabasco sauce!! I love it!! :thumbsup:
Threats did NOT have a good effect on any of us, and it seems strange that that would be a coincidence.
Pffft.
The only way I can get you to do a bleeding thing is by threatening you with the wrong end of a broomstick.
:p
Mister Noodle
20-04-2006, 21:06
Pffft.
The only way I can get you to do a bleeding thing is by threatening you with the wrong end of a broomstick.
:p
You mean there's a right end?
*oddly disturbed*
*crosses legs*
You mean there's a right end?
Now I understand why the kitchen floor looks the way it does ...
*le sigh*
Mr Noodle, whilst your brand of humour quite amuses me, I did not post this thread for any personal attacks. I was just asking for an opinion as to whether the general public of bub hubbers thought this choice of discipline was harmful or humiliating. I reckon you've had a fair swat at giving your opinion.
This thread was not started so you could clock up your mileage to get to the 1000 club. So with that said, could you please stop with the cross examination. You don't have to prove to us that you are intelligent. Bub hub is not a sport whereby you have to win, some of us actually come here for support and a giggle.
If I haven't been obvious enough, perhaps this will help - "pull your head in noodle and take your diatribe of condemnation elsewhere".
SassyMummy
21-04-2006, 00:34
If all it took to successfully raise a child is to have once BEEN a child...well, we'd all be the world's best parents, wouldn't we?
I tend to agree with everyone, Mr Noodle, that as a non-parent you really have no idea what you're talking about. Whilst I have not yet encountered a teenager of my own, I have done a fair bit more parenting with you. So far your contribution to parenting is what...your sperm? I beg you to wait a while before you're so quick to jump down the throats of BubHubbers with ACTUAL parenting experience.
Whilst you feel that your mother's effort may have worked well on yourself and your siblings, some others might not agree with her techniques. Personally, I feel that not allowing your children to make their own decisions is a bit "Hitler Youth"... but hey, that's just me.
I don't believe it is your duty to judge a mother's harmless disciplinary techniques whilst trying to preach the way of your mother's. ESPECIALLY when you do not have a child of your own. (Let alone a pre-teen or even teenager! GOOD LUCK when that happens!)
Oh - and on a side note and rather off-topic: Chile is a country. Chilli is the word you're looking for. It's been bugging me from the beginning!
Mister Noodle
21-04-2006, 00:43
I used to feel just the same, on the spelling issue.
However, turns out that chilli is actually an anglicisation of the word, found only in commonwealth countries.
While I generally go with english spellings, it seems kind of unfair to steal the word away from the people that invented it.
Someone pointed this out, and I had to agree, much to the annoyance ofthe people I'd previously told off about it.
As for the techiniques I've described... I must just suck at explaining things. It's just one step up from Supernanny, with The Voice standing in for the naughty step. People have read all kinds of things into it.
If only post-birth experience mattered, wouldn't everyone's first child be something of a screwup, like the first pancake in the pan?
Oh - and on a side note and rather off-topic: Chile is a country. Chilli is the word you're looking for. It's been bugging me from the beginning!
"Chile" is the horticultural term used to refer to the plant and the fruit.
"Chilli" technically means the dried pods. Or the meat and tomato dish.
I still spell it as chilli, though :)
And don't worry about his fathering skills.
That's why I have the broom.
reAllytee
21-04-2006, 02:32
Oh - and on a side note and rather off-topic: Chile is a country. Chilli is the word you're looking for. It's been bugging me from the beginning!
While i could make a comment on what you have said but i wont because i would come off as being judgemental i would like to point out that you saying the above shows that you yourself are judgemental but just in a different form.
So that being said i think everyone should take light of what Maghan has said & possibly become a little less judgemental & a little more tolerant as we have many different types of people here on the hub & i think that even though many opinions differ we all have one thing in mind & thats being the most supportive & loving parents or even parents to be that we can ! :hugs:
Yaya for hugs :hugs:
Ange&Seth
21-04-2006, 03:28
I'm going to start out by saying that I don't mean to offend ANYONE with this post so please don't think I'm attacking anyone in any way, shape or form.
K, on the subject of the tread - I think that if I had a 10yo swear at me, kick, spit etc etc I would try everything you tried and then if that didn't work, resort to something like what you ended up doing with the sauce. It's effective - she hasn't behaved this way since. It wasn't harmful - didn't burn a hole in her tongue or leave blisters did it? It wasn't humiliating - wasn't done in public. So :thumbsup: to you Maghan for coming up with a solution to the problem.
To the post re finding the source and starting the solution from there - given that the problem was primarily the swearing, I remember being at school and as early as grade 2, kids around me were swearing. Hell, that's where I learnt my first swear words!! So in this case, starting to solution from the source, would mean making sure your child had no contact with ppl other than her immediate family and ppl you could trust not to swear around her. I'm all for finding the source and starting from there with other behavioral (?sp) problems, but I'm not sure that this would work in the case of swearing iykwim.
To Mister Noodle - I tend to agree with the other bubhubbers on this thread that it is very difficult to give an opinion having not been in that particular situation or indeed, to accept the opinion of someone who as yet hasn't experienced the joy of their own child. My mother also used The Voice, but when that didn't work, we got a smack on the bum. And let me tell you, THAT hurt. She didn't smack very often because we knew that if you didn't listen to The Voice and continued with the bad behaviour then we got a smack.
However, having said that, I think your views on how you intend to discipline your children are favourable, but before you have kids, you tend to have a firm set idea in your mind of how you will do things (well, I did anyway :-) ), and sometimes things don't go the way you planned. I always said 'my kids will never have a dummy' but someone gave us a 2 pack of newborn dummies before Seth was born and he was less than 24 hours old before that dummy was shoved in his mouth! I guess my point to you Mister Noodle is that even the best laid plans can sometimes go astray. I appreciate and encourage your enthusiasm to 'mix it up' but, and I mean this with all due respect, I found some of your posts on this thread to be a little too vehement and intense. But everyone is entitled to their opinions and you were only giving yours :D
Wow, this is really long. Sorry :o Didn't realise I had that much to say!!!!
Again, I mean no offence to anyone by what I have put in this post. Really hope I haven't upset anyone :fingerscrossed:
Ange
Rather than being offended I think you have just provided a nice summary of the thread and the perfect point to say thank you to all who contributed and that when it has been wrapped up so nicely it is a good note to go out on.:thumbsup:
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