View Full Version : what does everyone think about the new laws
what does everyone think of the new laws they are bringing in where parents of unruly kids that go out drinking all night etc and wreck property have to pay damages and also the fine as well . (the parents have to pay)
honestly I think it is good, as our current neighbours kids drink and go crazy and what not. while the parents sit inside and do whatever.
damage of our property has occured more than once, with DH escorting the drunk teen off our 3acre block, after the drunk teen threw up on his foot, he told his parents and they have it in for everyone who complains bout there out of control kids, which is the whole street. and DH recieved a visit and a order against him for touching the kids arm.
This was over turned thank god.
So yes pumpkin I do agree:)
no drunk teens, parents should be responsable.:shame:
i aslo agree as the parents who sit at home and let their kids drink etc or buy their kids alcohol need their heads smacked in, as obvioulsy they have no brain to be supplying an underage child with alcohol to start with.
no wonder kids are so out of control these days.
off topic for a sec.
we even have to have police the local shopping centres as the hoodlums that should be at home as they aren't shopping (stand around entrances and swear, yell etc, smoke they even try to stand on the road so that cars have to move but it doesn't work with us as we are in a 4wd so we'll just run them over as they aren't supposed to be on the road pmsl
Oh I really feel sorry for good parents in that situation, I have good parents and I use to drink but never really got too naughty.
But what I was talking bout in my post, they are not good parents, I suppose with every law there is to protect people and so on, there are always going to be people who suffer from it if you know what I mean?
yes agree about the good parent part .
in reply to the add statement if they are allowed to get off on add (like oyur brothers problem was) then they will all use that excuse and try and pull the wool over everyones eyes. yet it will not work in non genuine cases.(hopefully)
Mamaduke
28-03-2006, 23:32
I think it's long overdue that parents took responsibility for their children's actions. Maybe it will teach the parents to watch their children a little more closely and monitor their behaviour before they spiral out of control.
DH & I were driving the other day and we started talking about the amount of grafitti everywhere. I commented that I would have never thought that it would be okay to just vandalise someone else's property like that.
We then agreed that if either of our boys vandalised someone else's property by spraying grafitti on it...and let's face it, if the kids are doing these 'tags' all over the suburb then they're doing the same 'tag' on their school books, bags etc...it wouldn't take a genius to figure out which one belonged to your child...I would make them go to the owner and apologise and then clean it off for them, using their own money to buy the equipment.
I heard some professional talking the other day and they said that the problem with children and adolescents these days is that too many times, parents are placing too much emphasis on the 'reasons' for the children's behaviour and not enough time in just plain and simple discipline, boundaries & consequences.
Ana Gram
28-03-2006, 23:35
Sure there are a lot of parents who do nothing about their unruly children, but there are also a lot of parents who pretty much can't do anything about it. I remember what I used to get up to as a teenager and there was zero my parents could have done about it short of locking me in my bedroom for a few years. Giving the parents the fine doesn't really teach the teen anything, they will just keep doing what they are doing knowing their parents will have to clean up their mess.
i think the main problem these days is that children have no disipline due to all the goody two shoes out there who carry on about older kids getting a smack on the butt (no i'm not talking bashing as there are lines with displine)
they should bring the cane back into schools because when i was in primary school the cane was still in and we had some very naughty people and it only took 2 whacks of the cane to bring them down to a normal level they thought twice about being bad. nowadays kids can walk around yelling you can't touch me its abuse when it is normal displine in 99% of cases
SassyMummy
28-03-2006, 23:39
I think it's kind of unfair. I'm sure a lot of parents who have parties at their homes don't know about them...or they simply cannot control them.
My brother was the "bad child" (well, so I say anyway...he was expelled in Grade 11, and smokes and drinks and is a dole bludger and always just did stuff to get himself into trouble...etc etc)...and my mother was as good as gold. She's a shy, sweet lady that would never do ANYTHING to upset ANYONE (other than yell at me to clean my room...lol). She couldn't control my brother (especially after she split up with Dad)...she's only 50kg and about 5foot...and he KNEW there was no way she could stop him from doing ANYTHING.
One night she went out to see a friend...I was out too...and when I came back, there were drunken teenagers all over the lawn, as well as millions of beer cans and whatnot. When I came inside, there was a pair of teens HAVING SEX ON THE LOUNGEROOM FLOOR! I told them to go home, but of course, nobody listened to me. I rang Mum, but she wasn't answering...etc etc...when she finally got home, she yelled at them all to go home, and they did...but my brother was a sh*t to her.
If any of my neighbours had called the police, and these new laws were in affect, my mother would have to pay for their fines...is she expected to give up her rights to having a social life just so she can monitor my brother's behaviour?
...
I also realise that some parents THROW the parties for their kids...which IMO is stupid...but my Dads friend did it for his daughter once. Kids were drinking on his property and all of that...but he explained that he did it because if he didn't, they'd do it elsewhere. At least he could keep a watch on it if they were at his house...and he and my father acted as "bouncers" to stop fights and gatecrashers. I still think it's a little stupid to do it, but I see his reasoning.
I think that parents should not have to pay a thing...the kids should have to do community service or something if they can't afford the fine. It's the only way they'll learn anything...they'll keep on doing it if they have no consequences.
You know, I knida agree pumpkin,
There was no cane when I was at school thank god. I spent enough time in trouble.
But my mum use to be so soft on us when we were growing up, until one day I cau my long hair, and my mum smacked me soooo hard I couldnt sit down properly, it was one of dads work belts(he is a cop do you know how thick they are?) she ended up calling it joey, and all she had to do was treaten us with "joey" and we never steped out of line again.
My DD 18mths get heaps of smacks too.
Mamaduke
28-03-2006, 23:44
they should bring the cane back into schools because when i was in primary school the cane was still in and we had some very naughty people and it only took 2 whacks of the cane to bring them down to a normal level they thought twice about being bad. nowadays kids can walk around yelling you can't touch me its abuse when it is normal displine in 99% of cases
I would NEVER allow another person to lay a hand on my children.
My DH was whacked with a cane at an exclusive private school and was whipped with a horse whip by his father...you know where that got him?
In deeper with the wrong crowd, letting an AFL career opportunity go to waste, smoking marijuana, stealing, making a general public nuisance of himself which resulted in several run-ins with the police and the judicial system...so that just goes to prove that physical assault (whether that be by a parent or a teacher) doesn't do an iota of good. He completely turned his life around when he had someone who loved him and knew he could be a better person, the person he deserved to be...and that was me!!!!
I personally thimk that my husband could have done with a good kick in the bum, he was a horrid kid.
drugs, drinking, getting into fights, arested.
He learnt his lesson when I got sick of his **** and left.
Sassy Mummy... Ur brother sounds like my brother :p...
One weekend my Mama and I went and stayed with a friend in Sydney, and we were living in a townhouse... I left some washing on my bed, and when I got home it was on the floor... Someone had slept in my bed :mad:... That is not on! Anyways, not long after that our neighbours started a petition and got all the neighbours to sign it to get us evicted... My stupid brother started this. If it was just my Mama and I it would have been fine as we are quiet and sensible... My Mama is also like your, small but a little bit heavier... And my brother knows theres nothing she can do to stop him. One night he went psycho and threw our bins and pot plants onto the road, he bent out screen door and kicked in the fence... This is just one occasion and this happened many times! But my Mama is the sweetest lady, doesnt say anything bad about anyone and cares so much about us! But there was just nothing she could do to control him. The police were called on several occasions and he actually ran away from them and threatened to kill them... What an idiot!
why then was he never admitted to a psychiatric unit in a hospital to make sure he only had add? are you sure it wasn't adhd or occ or another pyschological problem?
Pippi Longstocking
29-03-2006, 07:36
I would NEVER allow another person to lay a hand on my children.
I concur. I would NEVER strike my child with a cane - if anyone else tried it, they'd find it a struggle sitting down afterwards 'cos I think you can guess exactly where their cane would be lodged ;) .
I can't see how making the parents cop the blame and punishment is really going to be that helpful. Maybe instead it would be better to encourage the parents to attend a parenting course, learn some strategies to help cope with unruly children rather than just punish them? It seems to me that punishing the parent would be taking the responsibility off the child. I guess it depends what age child we are talking about here though.
Blessed Mum
29-03-2006, 07:51
[QUOTE=Mamaduke]I would NEVER allow another person to lay a hand on my children.
I too would not allow that either. Along with others my DSS is ADHD/ADD & no matter what we did it never made any difference to him & yes when he shop-lifted we took him ourselves to the police & they did nothing. Sure they spoke to him but that's it. I'm not sure tho I would be happy to pay fines he incurred because of his behaviour. He now resides with bio mum again so maybe I wouldn't mind now if she had too :p . That's a bit evil isn't it. But in saying that we never experienced him underage drinking or anything.
I think that most people who take responsibility for their own children, would already make their children be accountable for their actions if they did something illegal. I know if my son when he is older, say graffitied a train for instance, i would drag him down by the ear, make him clean it and apologise, and he would have to work off any cost incurred, so i think it will be helpful in weeding out those who just continue to allow their children to do these things without any repercussions. I think parenting courses are also a good idea :thumbsup:
i just wanted to add, I think the idea behind making parents pay childrens fines etc, it to encourage them to sit their children down and make them responsible for it, either by making them do chores to pay it off, or getting a part time job at maccas or something, or helping the person who they have wronged, either by cleaning up their mess or whatever, I dont believe its a good idea if the parents just cop the fine and the kids still get off scot free.
Mister Noodle
29-03-2006, 08:17
Ah, the cane. A wonderful thing.
Because there's nothing like hitting someone to teach them that resorting to violence is never a solution to life's problems.
[/sarcasm]
the_queen
29-03-2006, 08:19
I agree with the idea of parenting courses. Remember, a lot of these "hooligans" have parents who were caned as children, belted as children, etc etc. It's not about whether or not you hit a child as discipline; it's about whether or not that child has enough self-respect and self-worth to grow up to expect more of themselves and their children. I'm not just raising my daughter - I'm raising my grandchildren's mother.
ButterflyKisses
29-03-2006, 08:20
IMO I think if kids (not sure what age bracket the new law is talking about) are going to be running around drunk and destroying property they should be locked up and pay for their stupidity. Too many times kids are just given a slap on the wrist either by their parents or the law and they never learn. They just walk away and laugh about it and then go straight back out and repeat the same behaviour.
these kids mostly are the ones that turn out to be the thieves that steal your cars and break into your houses and if we caught up with the ******* that broke into our home and cleaned us out and stole my DH car twice and mine once we'd break their ******* legs.
I'm sick of driving around and seeing graffiti everywhere. Not only whilst out driving but the mutts have done it in our unit blocks carpark area and we are the bunnys that have to pay for it to fix it up.
sick sick sick :barf: of it and if it has now come down to the parents to have to suffer the consequences then so be it whether the parents are good or bad. I truly feel sorry for the good parents but what else can the law do when these punks don't respect the law.
the_queen
29-03-2006, 08:21
Ah, the cane. A wonderful thing.
Because there's nothing like hitting someone to teach them that resorting to violence is never a solution to life's problems.
[/sarcasm]
ITA :yelclap:
Ah, the cane. A wonderful thing.
Because there's nothing like hitting someone to teach them that resorting to violence is never a solution to life's problems.
[/sarcasm]
LOL, so true Mr Noodle :)
We used to have this family across the road from us and the mother would stand at the front door screaming at her children 'watch your ****** mouth, how many times have i ****** told you not to ****** swear, when you get inside im going to ****** belt you'
yes, i bet that taught them not to swear :rolleyes:
Mister Noodle
29-03-2006, 09:04
I'm not just raising my daughter - I'm raising my grandchildren's mother.
Now THAT was well-put.
How's this for a recursive definition: good parenting skills boil down to... teaching good parenting skills.
Oh, the ramifications.
Kudos.
caitsmum
29-03-2006, 09:26
Hmmm - the cane
Is it just me but I find it a bit hard to get my head around using violence to discourage violent and unsociablbe behaviour.
Its a bit like do I say not what I do
kiwibird27
29-03-2006, 09:28
Problem is its not just those children with "Bad" parents, I live close to a very wealthy neighbourhood in Sydney and the increase in graphitti and gang type crime has increased dramatically, the neighbourhood would have u believe its kids coming from other areas however, little johnny living in a mansion who goes to private school has has whatever he needs, is suffering neglect because mum and dad both work 70 hrs a week, and he's left to his own devices. However these parents wouldn't be percieved as bad parents - especially when johnny grows up and becomes a lawyer!!!
Parenting courses only work for parents who actually want help and to change - fines are great, but that just inflicts further suffering on low socio-economic families, the cane - come on there were "bad" kids back then to its just they were doing things that nowadays would never be percieved as being really bad
We need to give kids hope, make parents accountable, and somehow deal with the changing family unit without making kids suffer more??!!
What about camps for these kids, community groups, they need strong support network somewhere??!!
Pippi Longstocking
29-03-2006, 09:29
I'm not just raising my daughter - I'm raising my grandchildren's mother.
That is exactly how I try to think about parenting too. It is a huge job trying to break all of my own mother's bad parenting habits, but it is up to me to stop the cycle. f I don't, my kids will probably do the same to their kids, and them to their kids...
Our kids, whether we like it or not, learn how to parent from us. We are essentially not just raising one generation - our parenting may impact on kids for many many years down the track.
caitsmum
29-03-2006, 09:30
Kiwibird :yelclap: :yelclap:
Well said
Pippi Longstocking
29-03-2006, 09:35
Kiwibird, I agree with you - kids from all socio-economic backgrounds are capable of getting up to no good. Kids are bored. At risk of sounding positively ancient...back in my day *winces at own use of term*, we'd be out playing games. We'd grab a ball, round up all the local kids and have fun. Kids don't seem to know how to do that anymore. My kids don't. I take them to the park and try to teach them the games we used to play and they stare at me like I have 3 heads and slink away to wait in the car until I take them home to play the XBox.
Because they are bored, they find other ways of entertaining themselves. I don't know what the answers are, but I do believe that we need to do more than just punish the parents.
Pippi Longstocking
29-03-2006, 09:37
Oops, I just reread my post and it sounded like I was referring to my own kids that were bored and found other ways to entertain themselves. That's not what I meant :o . I was referring to kids in general.
My kids are never out of my sight long enough to get up to mischief. I am an annoying mum like that :p
You know, I knida agree pumpkin,
There was no cane when I was at school thank god. I spent enough time in trouble.
But my mum use to be so soft on us when we were growing up, until one day I cau my long hair, and my mum smacked me soooo hard I couldnt sit down properly, it was one of dads work belts(he is a cop do you know how thick they are?) she ended up calling it joey, and all she had to do was treaten us with "joey" and we never steped out of line again.
My DD 18mths get heaps of smacks too.
I had to kinda of cringe when I read this post.
When I was growing, my father also had big thick black belt. It was about 7cm wide, and 5 mm thick. It was called Black Joe and it terrified my older sister and I. Unfortunately, my father became an alcoholic and used the belt as a weapon. It left huge welts in our backs. Thankfully, my mum, left him and we never endured Black Joe again.
Because of these memories, I have never had a "black joe" in my house for my kids. I very rarely raise a hand to my kids. All I have to do is raise my voice and they know how serious I am, although, I do admit, that doesn't always work with a 13 and 10 year old!
Back to topic, I honestly don't think making the parents pay for their childrens behaviour will work. Maybe if the child is under 12 years old, then yes, but otherwise no. There are a lot of good parents out there with bad kids. The kids didn't turn bad because of the parenting, so why should they be the ones punished. I should know, I have a son with ADD and ODD. His ADD/ODD didn't come about from my parenting, so if he has a bad day and can't control his anger etc, why am I too blame? I do my best for him.
I personally think that if the child is over 12 years of age, the child who did the damage should be made to do supervised community service or put into a special detention center made for this purpose. A little taste of jail might pull a few of these kids into line, and might frighten a few others on the same path to pull their heads in and watch their behaviour.
Just a thought. It might not work, or be practical, but that is my opinion.
My DD 18mths get heaps of smacks too.
I am curious to know what an 18 month old can do that is so bad that it justifies "heaps of smacks"? Have you tried other methods of discipline like time out etc? (I have a 17 month old and find it pretty effective - removes her from the source of the problem and she is distracted and moves on to do something else.)
When my daughter is doing something she isnt suppose to, we raise our voice, and tell her several times to stop, but she is at a very smart age where she wants to push as much as she can, and a little smack on the hand or bum lets her know.
As for cringing when reading about joey. We (sister and I) had never been hit in our lives, I dont think my sister ever got hit, but we were told a hundred times NOT to cut our hair, so I got a smack, and we never got it again, just mum use to say "if you dont stop Ill get joey!'' and that was enough for us to stop and do as we were told.
So I think it was good for us, as we grew up good kids with good relationships with our parents. and getting trough life with only one smack is not too bad in my books.
Sorry, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was cringing when I read that post because it reminded me of the beltings my sister and I copped from our drunk father with "black Joe"
I wasn't refering that you had been belted, just remembering my own childhood.
Okay first of all, big belly is my sister and I posted a reply in her name, I didnt know she was a member here.
sopolicha
29-03-2006, 17:48
I am curious to know what an 18 month old can do that is so bad that it justifies "heaps of smacks"? Have you tried other methods of discipline like time out etc? (I have a 17 month old and find it pretty effective - removes her from the source of the problem and she is distracted and moves on to do something else.)
I am glad you addressed that Theresa, I was going to suggest it be moved to the Bad Mother's Club.
when I get on its always in my name, but I didnt check and today it wasnt.
My DD wont sit still for anything let alone, time out. She gets a tap on the hand or bum, she has never even got a red mark.
The things she does wrong, to get smack.
I told her twice not to go near the hot oven, when I was cooking the other night. then I took her in to the lounge room and set her up with toys, she came back I gave her a drink and biscuit, again I took her into the lounge to watch cartoons.
She finally came back again and went to touch the oven, I explained to her why she cant touch and now its a game to see how far she can go, but with an oven its not a game, so I smacked her hand( again no red mark) and she then listened.
Is that explaination enough, these are the sort of things I smack her for.
I hope that was not any suggestion that I am a BAD MOTHER.:mad:
tanni_83
29-03-2006, 17:58
sorry but i dont agree with making the parents pay...some parents are totally oblivious (sp?) to what their kids get up to once they hit high school. If they say, im gong to sleep 'wherever (a frinds place)' they just go out on rampage. by the time a child is 15-16, how often do you check with their parents that they are going to be staying etc?
ill get to a point here
my younger bro in law was a major little sh!t in high school. he'd come home with plenty of stories about rocking ppls roves, breaking into places, fighting and stealing. he used to go around at christmas time and take bulbs out of light displays as well, then come home later and boast about it to dh and i. now my mil thinks he's an angel...sorry but she honestly had NO idea of what he was up to...and his parents are 'good parents' they are not at all hard done by, they were dispalined growing up (not bashed) and he still went about doing these things. now...i think thats soley and totally his own discission to do all that type of stuff i think that the damages he's done he should pay for himself, not my in-laws
so like other ppl said, detention facilities, community service, yeah all good ideas but he's the type of kid that would just do it again.
i have no solutions but thats my 2 cents
(sorry for the long post :o )
tanni_83
29-03-2006, 18:04
when I get on its always in my name, but I didnt check and today it wasnt.
My DD wont sit still for anything let alone, time out. She gets a tap on the hand or bum, she has never even got a red mark.
The things she does wrong, to get smack.
I told her twice not to go near the hot oven, when I was cooking the other night. then I took her in to the lounge room and set her up with toys, she came back I gave her a drink and biscuit, again I took her into the lounge to watch cartoons.
She finally came back again and went to touch the oven, I explained to her why she cant touch and now its a game to see how far she can go, but with an oven its not a game, so I smacked her hand( again no red mark) and she then listened.
Is that explaination enough, these are the sort of things I smack her for.
i am not a smacking mum either but if elise (10mths) does that i still smack her hands...same with power points, shes facinated by them, and even though they have protection covers, im not taking my chances. sometimes smacking doesnt work but you need to try, and its only ever on the hand and i would never ever do it hard enough to mark. sometimes claping my hands together loudly is enough to make her stop, but when it doesnt, she gets a smack on the hand too!
i also hope this doesnt make me a bad parent!
To go back to the original, I don't think it's right to charge parents. Make them responsible? For what? For actions that their children do.. sure. But hey, how many good kids go bad? Some parents, i'm sure, will be at the end of their tether with these kids and then what.. slugged with a fine when their runaway has been found drunk in someone's rose garden?
Or then there's the flipside, some kids are "bad" because their parents aren't the best in the world. The ones from abused homes. So they "act out", their parents get a fine.. and then what? they get punished *shivers*
I think that by making the parents responsible, money/punishment wise, you're simply passing the buck. How will the child learn if mummy and daddy are the ones who have to cop it?
And..........
I'm not just raising my daughter - I'm raising my grandchildren's mother.
I love this. Beautifully put :)
Ah, the cane. A wonderful thing.
Because there's nothing like hitting someone to teach them that resorting to violence is never a solution to life's problems.
[/sarcasm]
*snicker* true true true.
i am not a smacking mum either but if elise (10mths) does that i still smack her hands...same with power points, shes facinated by them, and even though they have protection covers, im not taking my chances. sometimes smacking doesnt work but you need to try, and its only ever on the hand and i would never ever do it hard enough to mark. sometimes claping my hands together loudly is enough to make her stop, but when it doesnt, she gets a smack on the hand too!
i also hope this doesnt make me a bad parent!
If it makes you a bad mum, then I am a bad mum too, because I did exactly the same thing with all 3 of my kids.
It is for their own safety, not because we think it's a fun thing to do!
tanni_83
29-03-2006, 18:08
Seekrit - i very much agree with you!! well done! :thumbsup: :yelclap:
i am not a smacking mum either but if elise (10mths) does that i still smack her hands...same with power points, shes facinated by them, and even though they have protection covers, im not taking my chances. sometimes smacking doesnt work but you need to try, and its only ever on the hand and i would never ever do it hard enough to mark. sometimes claping my hands together loudly is enough to make her stop, but when it doesnt, she gets a smack on the hand too!
i also hope this doesnt make me a bad parent!
Gee I am pleased to see that I am not the only bad parent around here:laughing:
I got so angry over that post, until I realised they are not perfect themselves, just really rude.
Abo84, noone was being rude, a comment like 'my 18 mth old gets lots of smacks as well' is bound to draw a response, maybe if you had phrased it better people wouldnt have got so concerned.
Tam-I-Am
30-03-2006, 10:29
Back to the topic - I think we may be missing the point here. While I don't agree with fining parent's for their children's bad behaviour, I do agree that parents need to take responsibility for their children, and thus their behaviour. I'm not trying to judge anyone's current personal situation but IMO parents brought their children into the world and until they're 18, the parents ARE responsible.
It comes down to this tho - sometimes parents don't know how to effectively parent. Not saying they are doing a bad job - I know parents do the best job that they know how to do - But what if they don't know how to do better?
I really think the emphasis should be on empowering families to use discipline - not violence but DISCIPLINE - and sometimes they need to be taught how to do this - so wouldn't positive parenting programs be a more viable option than fines, particularly, as a couple of people have pointed out, when the parents are often from low-socio-economic backgrounds, may not have the money to pay fines, and then the kids suffer as a result in terms of perhaps less resources to go toward their upbringing.
I really think that there is too much emphasis on money by our governments, and if you think about it, isn't it just another example of the government trying to make money from something when there is a more viable solution.
Cause when you think about it, "bad" parents are going to stay bad, "good" parents are going to stay good by having to pay a fine, and nothing is going to change. BUT if they were taught some different skills, coping mechanisms, to deal with their children's behaviour than just loosing money, this could have a long-term and positive impact on all of the issues discussed. I'm not sure that this solution would ever be put into effect though, because it would actually COST the government money to implement, instead of making them more money as fining parents will do - and we all know how much governments love parting with their money!!
BTW to those who said "Bring back the cane" - do you really think it's up to a stranger, who has their own issues, and may not have your child's best interests at heart, to "discipline" your child? Don't get me wrong, I think there is a time and place for physical discipline, ie light smack across back of hand or well-nappied bottom -BUT - this is up to me as a mother to decide, not some stranger. The problem with handing physical discipline into the control of others is that it can get out of control - and this IS NOT ON IMO.
Mister Noodle
30-03-2006, 11:12
Tami: indeed. Your childrens' actions are your problem, until they're adults. You clean up behind them, and pay for the stuff they break. If someone is not legally competent to take full responsibility for their own actions, then their guardian takes that responsibility.
I'm just amazed that this *wasn't* the case up until now.
I still don't agree that pain has any place in discipline, though. IMHO it sends all the wrong signals: that the basis for authority lies in its ability to harm you. Also, when they go unpunished for some undetected deed, it sends an even stronger signal: anything goes, if you can get away with it. What happens when they're big enough to slap you right back?
I mean, you don't use pain to train a dog. You do the whole thing through dominance and praise. You don't punish infractions and hope they make the connection, you emotionally condition them against the very idea of doing it in the first place. You give them the eye and the Voice and you leave them absolutely no room for debate. You take on the visage of an angry god, and tell them in no uncertain terms that Thou Shalt NOT Do That, EVER. You ever don't lose control - you're the one fixed point and the universe bends around YOUR will . You're not telling them what they should not do, you're telling them what they WILL not do. If you're already established as the alpha [female dog - silly swear filter], they don't have a snowflake's chance in hell of defying you. They just don't have the emotional resources. And of course, you praise them to bits when they do good.
And the same goes for kids, as far as I can see. It worked just fine on me and my three sibs - and I'm ADHD to boot. We were damn well-behaved kids, and we've never been 'punished' once.
If your kids respect your authority despite being big enough to resist your punishment, it's not fear of pain that's preventing them, it's emotional conditioning through dominance. The pain (or other so-called 'consequences', don't get me started) is just a prop - and IMHO, a counterproductive one, in the long run.
Angelmist♥
30-03-2006, 11:25
I like the "thought" of the cane at school.IYKWIM........The cane was still in place when I hit high-school (only just) and although I don't know a single person who ever got it, the thought that it was there in the principal's office certainly did make people think twice about acting up.
Let's be honest, although we are their parents, there is no way possible that we can be there 24/7 until the "magic 18th birthday" unless we lock them in a room.
Kid's have to be kids, teens have to be teens.Some are smarter than others and the majority learn and move on. In saying that some parents are smarter than others as well.In my teens, I was a "shocker" to some degree.I told mum I was going somewhere and went somewhere else, I drank, smoked and tried pot and IMO this is what made my mother a not-so-smart parent.She would hardly ever let anyone sleep over at our house so instead I went elsewhere.
My nephew recently had his 16th birthday party at his house(ha ha I was the only "rellie" invited:smiliedance: )and his mother chose to buy him alcohol for the night.Alot of family members and friends went right off about it, but as she said (and I have lived)if she didn't all of them would have gone somewhere else where there was no parents to watch over them and keep them from doing REALLY stupid things.As it was because they were allowed to drink, the hardly drank 2 drinks each and had a much better time just talking and listening to music.
Ooh jeez really long post sorry.........IMO parents feel crappy enough when they find out their kids have been up to no good, so making the kids responsible would be a hell of a lot better.
Tam-I-Am
30-03-2006, 20:38
Hey mister noodle,
I think we're arguing the same point kinda - I don't think of pain when I think of physical discipline - like I said the farthest I would ever go is a light smack across the back of a hand, or on a well-padded (nappied) bottom - this is done more to shock my child out of a tantrum, or to gain attention when it's seriously required ie when she's engaging in a dangerous behaviour. Not to cause pain, not to harm her, and not to prove my dominance over her. If it is done only rarely, and only when really important, I think that she will understand the context and pay attention where other methods have failed. Like I said - I believe there is a time a place for it, but physical punishment, in my book, does NOT equal discipline - it can be just a very small part of it - at least in my book.
Mister Noodle
30-03-2006, 21:16
Yeah, that's about the only time I'd support a smack - when they're stuck in a tantrum and just can't calm down, or even hear you.
As a non-maskable interrupt - a way of breaking the context and getting some out-of-band communication happening, fair enough.
It's coercion through violence dressed up as 'discipline' that bothers me, for a bunch of reasons (etymology among them).
Tam-I-Am
30-03-2006, 21:43
Absolutely couldn't agree more, Mister Noodle.
SassyDiva
30-03-2006, 22:48
Parents should be held responsible for the behaviour of children.. But their also needs to be more community support for parents struggeling to cope with a difficult child, i don't think you can educate by simply extracting money from parents. They need skills and a support network of other parents that have or are going through similar experiences to enforce a chane in community behaviour.
The local boys in our street are now driving - and the amount of speeding cars that fly up and down our court is terrible, it's scarry to think these kids haven't even been driving for more than a few months B4 they play 'evil conevil' on our suburban roads... Long gone are the days children could play a game of cricket in the street.... But what do ya do....
Well im gonna sit on the fence for this one. I agree and also disagree.
Parents in a way should be responsible and know what their kids are up to. So if they are not looking after their kids properly and their kids cause damage to property or whatever then parents should pay the money if they arent doing a good job parenting.
Yet then again i know some really great parents and their kids are absolute rebels and outta control drinking and whatever all the time. It is not the parents job they are trying as hard as they can so it is unfair in this instance.
In some ways i believe that the kids should be responsible for their own actions. If their parents pay for the damage to get their kids outta trouble how are their kids learning from the experience. They will just think oh well i didnt really get into too much s**t my parents got me out of it and always will. Whereas if they have to do things like community service and work hard for what they have done wrong, e.g. if they graffiti then clean it up themselves then do extra stuff to make them really learn their lesson. Whatever it takes for them to learn.
Just my opinion.
Mister Noodle
31-03-2006, 12:54
By the same token, though, absolving parents of financial responsibility for their children's actions gives them absolutely no incentive to drum responsibility into their heads.
Say you have a dog that you let off the leash in the street for 12 hours a day, and you know that you'll have to pay compensation for any damage that it causes. You'll naturally be very careful to ensure that it's extremely well-trained - and if you're not absolutely confident of its training, you'll make sure you keep an eye on it at all times.
Now imagine the same situation, but this time, any damage it causes is not your problem. Are you going to put quite so much time and effort into training and supervising it? Is everyone as naturally responsible as you?
I think the analogy extends quite well to minors.
Kirstlea
31-03-2006, 22:23
Whoa what a topic.
I don't think parents can be responsible for their children up to the age of 18. I left home at 16, had a job and my own place and I can tell you now there was no way my parents were going to tell me what to do anymore.
If you haven't learnt right from wrong and discovered respect by the age of 16 then I seriously doubt it will happen by the time you are 18.
I would like to see the cane come back in to schools and the laws changed to enable teachers to discipline effectively. Obviously the current laws are not working, they are turning the kids into unaccountable yobos.
We had the cane at school and I can only remember hearing of 2 or 3 people ever getting the cane. There were rules as to when the cane could be used, it was most certainly not a 1st resort. Parents were brought into discuss issues and how to deal with it before the cane was thought of and the parents had to sign consent forms.
The mere thought of getting the cane was a great deterent.
Making the parents pay for their childs actions is not going to solve the problems, but I do feel that the parents should be involved in the action to be taken and made accountable to ensure their child carrys out the discipline given.
Lets face a deterent is not harmful and I don't know anyone that has turned psycho from getting the cane at school. I used to get bashed as a child from my father (who I have forgiven) but I have not turned into a low life who blames everything on everyone else. I am accountable for my own actions and I will teach my dd the same.
Abo84 my nearly three year old gets smacks for dangerous things too after about 4 or 5 warnings and distractions. I always tell her when she has blown her last chance, which 9 times out of 10 stops her from pushing any further.
She already knows when she has done something really naughty that she will be sitting on the naughty spot and sometimes puts herself there so thats progress to me.:ecomcity:
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.9 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.