Why is it okay ...

[Silvana]

for a boy to be circumised, but the mere mentioned of a girl being circumised is shocking? Shouldn't they both be considered that way?

Sorry it is a topic that recently come to light in our house after watching a few docos on it.

Is it true that many times, a male circumision is performed without anaesthetic? I know in the US this is common, but what about here? I just don't understand why this is still accepted.

[kikis3]

Yes. This is my argument too. I can not understand how it is any different. When my DS 1 was newborn my MIL came into the room and whilst holding him asked if we were having him circumcised. He was no more than 24 hours old.

When I asked her if he had of been a girl would she expect me to have it done, she was very quite....didnt really speak to me much after that.

Anyway bit off topic there but I agree neither sex should be done. Oh also SIL has her boys done but could not bear to have her rotty dogs' tail docked...go figure:confused:

[Silvana]

I am glad you stuck to your guns.

Your SIL is unbelievable. How can it be ok to be unkind to a child, but not to a dog? :confused:

[the_queen]

And in fact in some area's it is illegal to dock puppies tails now :confused: But RIC (routine infant circumcision) is still legal. And female circumcision is referred to as FGM (female genital mutilation) but do the same thing to a male and it's "circumcision" :mad:

The foreskin is technically called the Prepuce - and women have one too. Can you imagine the horror, disgust, and calls-to-child-protection if a family said they were having their newborn daughter's clitoral hood removed without anaesthetic?

[Roxy]

Personally, I don't see what the difference is, and I don't condone RIC.

I don't condemn those who have it done to their boys, it just wasn't something that I thought was a necessary procedure for my baby boy.

Your SIL is amazing - can't bear to have the dog's tail docked but could get her some circumcised?? Wow... :confused:

[DivinelySophistimicated]

I just did an argumant article on anti-circ...I got a distinction too :)

Anyways, Its shocking when you research into and see little pictures of wee babies strapped down and have their penis' sliced.

There are many many doctors now that will not perform the operation unless for life threatening reasons. I hope more doctors follow suit.

Seriously though, religion, how can that be an excuse to hurt your child like that?

[LG]

I think the 'double standard' with regards to male vs. female circumcision is terrible. I believe in giving boys the choice as to whether they want a functional piece of their anatomy removed. If it is being done when they are tiny then they have no choice, and by the time they are old enough to decide for themselves it's too late, you can't put the foreskin back :no:.

I've seen a few documentaries on the subject, and nothing anyone says could convince me that male circumcision is a good idea.

Religion is a POOR reason for circumcision :shame:. Totally inacceptable :mad:.

[SassyMummy]

I'm with you OP.

I'm against both.

[my_lot]

How does the female foreskin work?

Is it fused to the body the same way some/most boys are born?

You all seem to know waaay more about it than i do so please someone inform me.

[MummaBear03]

Yes. This is my argument too. I can not understand how it is any different. When my DS 1 was newborn my MIL came into the room and whilst holding him asked if we were having him circumcised. He was no more than 24 hours old.

When I asked her if he had of been a girl would she expect me to have it done, she was very quite....didnt really speak to me much after that.

Anyway bit off topic there but I agree neither sex should be done. Oh also SIL has her boys done but could not bear to have her rotty dogs' tail docked...go figure:confused:
I would not get my son circumcised and think that it should be illegal to have dog's tails docked too. It's painful and unkind and pointless. It's simply mutilating the body of an animal that has no control over what's happening to it. I feel very strongly about tail docking, more than I do about male circumcision and have quite strong feelings on that too. It's certainly not something I'd end friendships over, but you never know, none of my friends have circumcised their baby boys.

[Milliner]

How does the female foreskin work?

Is it fused to the body the same way some/most boys are born?

You all seem to know waaay more about it than i do so please someone inform me.


Have a look at this (http://www.noharmm.org/anatsim.htm) site

[Ashleigh<3]

What I don't understand is why parents circ for 'sexual' reasons. That should be the last of their worries.
Every person learns how to use what they've got because it's what they were given to use.
Meddling with it is a huge risk, and who do we think we are to take what they were meant to have away from them. :(
We were biologically designed to have a penis or a vagina, removing certain parts from them to prevent an infection which 'might' occur- is just not a good enough reason.

Isn't it true, archaically speaking, that the only reason circumcision was ever suggested was for sexual reasons?

[MummaBear03]

Have a look at this (http://www.noharmm.org/anatsim.htm) site
:( I looked at that site
:eek: Not much difference between male and female, I wouldn't do that to my son or daughter :crying:

[my_lot]

thanks milliner.

but is the cicumcision done the same way?

[diesal444]

Its not medically neccessary, and totally pointless. Babies are born perfect. No need to cut parts of their penis off. I feel sorry for them all, and their families.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Milliner]

Type I
The WHO defines Type I female genital mutilation as the removal or splitting of the clitoral hood, termed "hoodectomy" (or "clitorodotomy"), with or without excision of the clitoris. The clitoral hood is homologous to the foreskin of the penis which is removed during circumcision.

Type II
The WHO's definition of Type II FGC is the "excision of the clitoris with partial or total excision of the labia minora." This type of FGC is also called khafd, meaning reduction in Arabic.

Type III: Infibulation with excision

The WHO defines Type III FGC as "excision of part or all of the external genitalia and stitching/narrowing of the vaginal opening (infibulation)." It is the most extreme form of FGC, and accounts for about 15% of all FGC procedures. Infibulation is also known as "pharaonic circumcision."

In a study (Pieters, 1977) of infibulation in the Horn of Africa, Pieters observed that the procedure involves extensive tissue removal of the external genitalia, including all of the labia minora and the inside of the labia majora. The labia majora are then held together using thorns or stitching. In some cases the girl's legs have been tied together for two to six weeks, to prevent her from moving and to allow the healing of the two sides of the vulva. Nothing remains but the walls of flesh from the pubis down to the anus, with the exception of an opening at the inferior portion of the vulva to allow urine and menstrual blood to pass through. Generally, a practitioner deemed to have the necessary skill carries out this procedure, and a local anesthetic is used. However, when carried out "in the bush," infibulation is often performed by an elderly matron or midwife of the village, with no anesthesia used.

A reverse infibulation can be performed to allow for sexual intercourse or when undergoing labor, or by female relatives, whose responsibility it is to inspect the wound every few weeks and open it some more if necessary. During childbirth, the enlargement is too small to allow vaginal delivery, and so the infibulation must be opened completely and restored after delivery. Again, the legs are sometimes tied together to allow the wound to heal. When childbirth takes place in a hospital, the surgeons may preserve the infibulation by enlarging the vagina with deep episiotomies. Afterwards, the patient may insist that her vulva be closed again.

This practice increases the occurrence of medical complications due to a lack of modern medicine and surgical practices.[citation needed]

A five-year study of 300 women and 100 men in Sudan found that "sexual desire, pleasure, and orgasm are experienced by the majority of women who have been subjected to this extreme sexual mutilation, in spite of their being culturally bound to hide these experiences."

Most advocates of the practice continue to perform the procedure in adherence to standards of beauty that are very different from those in the west. Many infibulated women will contend that the pleasure their partners receive due to this procedure is a definitive part of a successful marriage and enjoyable sex life.

Type IV: Other types
There are other forms that are collectively referred to as Type IV and may not involve any tissue removal at all. This includes a diverse range of practices, including pricking the clitoris with needles, burning or scarring the genitals as well as ripping or tearing of the vagina or introducing herbs into the vagina to cause bleeding and a narrowed vaginal opening. Type IV is found primarily among isolated ethnic groups as well as in combination with other types.

[Fuchsia!]

I don't like either and it should be banned.

I don't want to know how its done either female or male, i would never get it out of my head if i seen it done.

[Shanaynay]

Same thing to me.

But to answer the OP, it's because male circ is normalised in our culture, female is not. It's all about peoples perceptions of what is normal....
eg.... it's normal to eat cow, but not horse. In other cultures either is fine, or the other way around.

Btw, Queenie's post made me remember something..... was cirumcision recently made illegal somewhere or am I imagining things? :confused:

[Milliner]

Phin - -Don’t quote me, but I think it’s illegal in Finland.

[xkwzit]

I want to remind ppl of the guidelines for language (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=120819) used when posting in any of the circ sections. Some earlier posts have been edited, any more in this thread that require editing will receive infractions.

Cheers

[Roopee]

Same thing to me.

Btw, Queenie's post made me remember something..... was cirumcision recently made illegal somewhere or am I imagining things? :confused:
I think something was passed in Victorian ?parliment? I dont think it's illegal there but i think it has been made extremely hard to do?
Clearly, i have NO idea- someone please correct me if im wrong:cool:

[the_queen]

There have been advancements in recent years, whereby it isn't covered by Medicare anymore - well it's happened in SA quite recently and the news report said "SA finally catches up to the other states" by doing this. So the procedure is included in the "cosmetic surgery" part of medicare, along with breast augmentation etc. So it is expensive to have the procedure done.

[melissa.r]

Personally I think performing unneccessary surgery on any child is harmful... I think arguments around female genital mutilation are more about the oppression of women in communities where this is practiced routinely, this is not an issue with male circumcision. Therefore I see there is a difference between the two as they are performed for very different reasons... In saying this I do not condone either practice whatever the motivations.

[my_lot]

Why does one have the word mutilation (FGM) in it and the other does not?

[kikis3]

:iagree:

[julietv8]

I'm about to give birth to a baby boy, and the other day my mum said "so are you going to have him circumcised?"

I pulled my most horrified face "NO!!"

she went quiet for a bit and asked why, and I said its not my foreskin to cut off, if he decides as an adult that he doesn't want it, fine, but its not my choice to make for him.

She had a think about it, and decided that it was a good point, in her day they just did it.

Hopefully, with education, peoples viewpoints will change :goodvibes:

As for the religious argument, it must be hard to make those decisions if your son is going to be unable to "become a man" in the culture which you live if this isn't performed. Not that I personally condone it, but you can kind of see where they are coming from. Until it becomes illegal, or even just socially unacceptable i think its going to continue.

[chicky2lala]

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong

[Silvana]

I do hope it is illegal in Victoria, and I hope that the other states follow suit.

Can someone answer my question of whether anasethetic is used or not?

I have tried to read some of the posts that define particular types of circumsion, but it breaks my heart, and I can't do it.

[WorkingClassMum]

Religion is a POOR reason for circumcision .


circ for both male & female is done for religious reasons - neither of which are acceptable


BTW - when our pups where born 11 years ago we had a hard time selling them because we didn't dock their tails

[pansy]

I do not believe in female or male circumcision....
A friend of mine recently had her 4 week old son done and her reasoning behind it when I asked her was that her DH was circumcised and neither of them would know how to clean it....WTF?????
I will wait for the day she has a girl and ask her if sdhe will have her circumsised...

[seadog]

for a boy to be circumised, but the mere mentioned of a girl being circumised is shocking? Shouldn't they both be considered that way?

Sorry it is a topic that recently come to light in our house after watching a few docos on it.

Is it true that many times, a male circumision is performed without anaesthetic? I know in the US this is common, but what about here? I just don't understand why this is still accepted.

There is a huge difference, female circumcision involves the removal of both the clitoris and clitroral hood. To have the equivalent operation in a male it would be not only the removal of the foreskin but the penile glans as well.
Some african tribes practice female circ to stop wives "straying" by making sexual intercourse far less pleasurable.

[J&C0508]

Well i have 2 boys and YES they are both circumcised.
Does that make me a bad mother for not giving my sons the choice.
I find that most of those who are absolutely dead against it dont have sons therfore have never had to make the desicion, that i might remind you is not an easy decision to make.
Its easy to have an opinion on something that you havent directly had to decide to do.
At the end of the day it is a personal choice two parents make and to be frank is no-one elses business as to WHY or WHY NOT they have it performed.
As for female cicumcision that is simply not even in our culture so why it would be a big issue i dont know.
I have had 2 cousins tht had to be circumcised at the age of 8 and 12 due to severe infection, which was an actual operation in hopsital. I have a nephew who is constanlty on antibiotics because infection.
Both my sons were given a penile block before the procedure and they didnt have any discomfort at all afterwards bathed and nappy change as normal no dramas.

[neostudded]

Interesting thread, I dont like either practices, so I dont know the answer.

[Lillynix]

I find that most of those who are absolutely dead against it dont have sons therfore have never had to make the desicion, that i might remind you is not an easy decision to make.
Its easy to have an opinion on something that you havent directly had to decide to do.

I have a son. I am anti-circ. There was never a decision to make. His penis has a foreskin. It stays there.


At the end of the day it is a personal choice two parents make and to be frank is no-one elses business as to WHY or WHY NOT they have it performed.

No, it's not a personal chioce, it's simply not your choice to make, it is the choice of your son. It is his foreskin, his penis and his body. I don't care what way you try to spin it, you simply have absolutely no right to modify and amputate a part of another persons body.

Circumcision should be outlawed. Unless there is a valid medical reason, it should not be performed simply because the "parent wants it", it is not the parents body.

As for female circumcision, it is definitely a practice that should never be done, same as male circumcision. But for some reason, living in the western world, that seems to mean that we can permanently modify our sons bodies because it is seen as "normal" while we are not allowed to do the SAME THING to our daughters as it is seen as ******** and something only to be seen in National Geographic.

Double standards. Those of which should not be allowed, you shouldn't have one without the other. So either make female circumcision legal and "normal" or make male circumcision illegal.

[Silvana]

:iagree:. Well said

[Mummaholic]

I find that most of those who are absolutely dead against it dont have sons therfore have never had to make the desicion, that i might remind you is not an easy decision to make.
Its easy to have an opinion on something that you havent directly had to decide to do.
At the end of the day it is a personal choice two parents make and to be frank is no-one elses business as to WHY or WHY NOT they have it performed...

I have had 2 cousins tht had to be circumcised at the age of 8 and 12 due to severe infection, which was an actual operation in hopsital. I have a nephew who is constanlty on antibiotics because infection.

I have a son, and another on the way. Under no circurmstances would my sons EVER have been circumcised. :no: No way, no how :no:. Many of my friends (with sons), even with dhs that are circ'd, feel the same way.

I think you are quite unlucky to know that many people that have had infections, poor boys :(. I have never heard of anyone I know having a similar infection, most are uncirc'd.

As for OP, I don't know why. They are very similar practices in my eyes, just makes me want to cry thinking of a newborn having this done. Heel prick test was hard enough for me to bear :crying:.

[Freya]

Well i have 2 boys and YES they are both circumcised.
Does that make me a mutilator, or a bad mother for not giving my sons the choice.
I find that most of those who are absolutely dead against it dont have sons therfore have never had to make the desicion, that i might remind you is not an easy decision to make.
Its easy to have an opinion on something that you havent directly had to decide to do.
At the end of the day it is a personal choice two parents make and to be frank is no-one elses business as to WHY or WHY NOT they have it performed.

I have a son, I chose to not give get him circumcised because it is not my decision. By the way I had to go against his father and all of his family to do that. It wasn't a hard decision because I couldn't even think of inflicting that pain on my child but it's been hard copping it from them because I wouldn't have him circed. But you know what I wouldn't have it any other way.

Yes, it is personal choice so let the boy's make that choice.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

I have a son and he is not Circ'd.
My sister has two boys 1 Circ'd one not. He got a shocking infection due to too much being removed. My youngest nephew sometimes gets infections from not having it done, he uses a cream on his penis and has salt baths and all the Dr's he has seen say that they will not Circ him, as given time the majority of boys skin will stretch and they will be fine. My sister would still rather not have either boy done, what is a little infection copared to the big stuff that can go wrong????
At the end of the day It is his body -how dare we remove things from our children for no real reason- other then outdated wives tales.

[J&C0508]

I'd like to hear what some of the dads have to say about it.

So i must be unkind then, and have taken so much away from my boys, i wonder if they will hate me or judge me for, like everyone else has. I guess i will have to wait till they are older. For now i will have to live with being the worst person/mother in the world for ''what i have DONE to them''.

[Mummaholic]

I'd like to hear what some of the dads have to say about it.

So i must be unkind then, and have taken so much away from my boys, i wonder if they will hate me or judge me for, like everyone else has. I guess i will have to wait till they are older. For now i will have to live with being the worst person/mother in the world for ''what i have DONE to them''.

I don't hate you or judge you...I hate the practice though.

This is an anti-circ thread, so it is to be expected many of us will disagree with the practice.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

I'd like to hear what some of the dads have to say about it.

So i must be unkind then, and have taken so much away from my boys, i wonder if they will hate me or judge me for, like everyone else has. I guess i will have to wait till they are older. For now i will have to live with being the worst person/mother in the world for ''what i have DONE to them''.
I don't thik you are the worst mother - I don't think my sister is either. You were both doing what you thought was right at the time. I just wish the practice was banned and then no one could blindly do it.
Also your sons won't know any different now - so I'll doubt they will be angry. Just as my huband doesnt hold his mother responsable. He doesn't care- however he will not do it to his sons.

[J&C0508]

This is an anti-circ thread, so it is to be expected many of us will disagree with the practice.

And i realised that after i posted, so in future i will make sure i read properly. I also didnt realise that so many of you were so into the topic as you are and felt soooo strong Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs i respect that. I just hope that no-one judges a person, thinks bad of them if they have the procedure performed on their child.

[Mummaholic]

And i realised that after i posted, so in future i will make sure i read properly. I also didnt realise that so many of you were so into the topic as you are and felt soooo strong Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs i respect that. I just hope that no-one judges a person, thinks bad of them if they have the procedure performed on their child.

I would never judge a person for reason like this; but I DO feel strongly about the practice of circumcision. Probably just as much as those who feel strongly enough to have it done.

I wish you all the best and assure you that my opinions are not a personal attack of those bubhubbers who have circumcised your sons. However, I have strong beliefs about the practice which meant I choose not to do so.

[Grace3]

I agree. No diff in my eyes

[MummaBear03]

I'd like to hear what some of the dads have to say about it.

So i must be ******** then, and have taken so much away from my boys, i wonder if they will hate me or judge me for, like everyone else has. I guess i will have to wait till they are older. For now i will have to live with being the worst person/mother in the world for ''what i have DONE to them''.

You won't be judged for doing what you thought was right, it's the doctors who are performing this without any medical reason for it.

BTW I'm upset that my mother gave me formula as a baby but don't blame her for the poor advice given by medical professionals :D

[neostudded]

That is a good point mummabear03,

I am upset/hurt about a few things that my mother did with me when I was little.
But I realize she did the best she could at the time with the info she had and the support system she had.

So I dont hold anything against her.
I just thank her for doing the best she could do.

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

You won't be judged for doing what you thought was right, it's the doctors who are performing this without any medical reason for it.

BTW I'm upset that my mother gave me formula as a baby but don't blame her for the poor advice given by medical professionals :D
While I uderstand what you are trying to say- I don't believe that there is any comparison between FF and Circ. Formula feeding has a purpose and is necessary for alot of babies. It is something that nourishes babies and without it alot of them would have died.
Being circed could kill your baby- or cause other long term damage- I am yet to meet a FF baby who is terribly damaged because of it.

[MummaBear03]

While I uderstand what you are trying to say- I don't believe that there is any comparison between FF and Circ. Formula feeding has a purpose and is necessary for alot of babies. It is something that nourishes babies and without it alot of them would have died.
Being circed could kill your baby- or cause other long term damage- I am yet to meet a FF baby who is terribly damaged because of it.
Oh I wasn't comparing the 2, just saying that sometimes parents do things that they think are best at the time, and children won't necessarily grow up to hate the parents for it :flowerz:

So even though she didn't need to, she did it due to poor advice so it wasn't necessary at all, but I don't hate her for it or judge her for it even though I'm upset about it as it wasn't necessary. Had it been a medical necessity then yes, same with circing, if it's medically necessary (not that I've known of that to be the case but it's been mentioned on here so maybe there are times) then it is the right thing to do, but if it isn't medically necessary then I don't believe it should be done.

[AwwDad]

I have a son, and another on the way. Under no circurmstances would my sons EVER have been circumcised. :no: No way, no how :no:. I consider the practice ********. Many of my friends (with sons), even with dhs that are circ'd, feel the same way.

I think you are quite unlucky to know that many people that have had infections, poor boys :(. I have never heard of anyone I know having a similar infection, most are uncirc'd.

As for OP, I don't know why. They are very similar practices in my eyes, just makes me want to cry thinking of a newborn having this done. Heel prick test was hard enough for me to bear :crying:.

:iagree:

I've been reading the forum for a while and I now feel it's time to share an opinion or two...firstly, if you are attentive to your child's hygiene I believe in a majority of cases infection is highly unlikely. I am uncircd and have NEVER had any form of infection, irritation etc etc. Niether have any of my relatives or friends that I know of.

I personally think that if we were born with it, we're meant to have it. There would have to be a real good medical reason unable to be treated any other way before I would go down that road with my children (boys).

I think with hygiene practices being what they are today it is unnecessary.

As for OP's question - they are one in the same to me.

[MummaBear03]

:iagree:

I've been reading the forum for a while and I now feel it's time to share an opinion or two...firstly, if you are attentive to your child's hygiene I believe in a majority of cases infection is highly unlikely. I am uncircd and have NEVER had any form of infection, irritation etc etc. Niether have any of my relatives or friends that I know of.

I personally think that if we were born with it, we're meant to have it. There would have to be a real good medical reason unable to be treated any other way before I would go down that road with my children (boys).

I think with hygiene practices being what they are today it is unnecessay.

As for OP's question - they are one in the same to me.
Good to hear from a MAN with an opinion on it! :yelclap:

[sockstealingpoltergeist]

Awww Dad- Great points!!!!!!:yelclap::yelclap::yelclap:

[BreakfastatTiffanys]

:iagree:

I've been reading the forum for a while and I now feel it's time to share an opinion or two...firstly, if you are attentive to your child's hygiene I believe in a majority of cases infection is highly unlikely. I am uncircd and have NEVER had any form of infection, irritation etc etc. Niether have any of my relatives or friends that I know of.

I personally think that if we were born with it, we're meant to have it. There would have to be a real good medical reason unable to be treated any other way before I would go down that road with my children (boys).

I think with hygiene practices being what they are today it is unnecessary.

As for OP's question - they are one in the same to me.

So very well said :yelclap::yelclap::yelclap:

To the OP I think there is no difference, female and male circumsision is not necessary....

Great post Aww dad

[Lillynix]

I'd like to hear what some of the dads have to say about it.

My DH is circed and whilst he knows no different for himself, he is absolutely dead set against male circumcision.


So i must be unkind then, and have taken so much away from my boys, i wonder if they will hate me or judge me for, like everyone else has. I guess i will have to wait till they are older. For now i will have to live with being the worst person/mother in the world for ''what i have DONE to them''.

I'm not afraid to say it, yes, I judge you. How can I not? You inflicted unnecessary pain on your children and for what?

So yes, I judge you. Whether you sons do is yet to be known. I hope for your sake that they grow up not caring. As once it's gone, it can'tbe put back.

[Jakois]

Well i have 2 boys and YES they are both circumcised.
Does that make me a bad mother for not giving my sons the choice.
I find that most of those who are absolutely dead against it dont have sons therfore have never had to make the desicion, that i might remind you is not an easy decision to make.
Its easy to have an opinion on something that you havent directly had to decide to do.
At the end of the day it is a personal choice two parents make and to be frank is no-one elses business as to WHY or WHY NOT they have it performed.
As for female cicumcision that is simply not even in our culture so why it would be a big issue i dont know.
I have had 2 cousins tht had to be circumcised at the age of 8 and 12 due to severe infection, which was an actual operation in hopsital. I have a nephew who is constanlty on antibiotics because infection.
Both my sons were given a penile block before the procedure and they didnt have any discomfort at all afterwards bathed and nappy change as normal no dramas.

I have two sons actually. One 12 and one 7.
My 12 yr old was mortified when they talked about curcumcision for Health at School:eek:.
As were most of his buddies.

[veve]

due to some of the recent posts - thread has been closed for cleaning ..

thanks
Jenny