View Full Version : Bring on the IR reforms!!!!
kiwibird27
21-03-2006, 22:01
Am i the only one not concerned about the change in IR ???? Think its brillant - will mean i can negotiate my own deals instead of being stuck on the standard award, and I won't have to worry about stupid ferry workers going on strike and ruining my day about their pay!!!!!!
What do u guys think?????
They also mean you can be fined for trying to lodge an unfair dismissal claim amongst other things. Sorry but i find the thought of it very scary indeed, at my DH place of employment they are gearing up for the 'reforms' already, being a goverment run dept, they are rubbing their hands with glee, and many many jobs are already lined up to go, and I am terrified my husbands may be one of them.
I think it's the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer to be honest.
I use to work under an award and to be honest I am sure the guys I use to work with are very scared.
Some jobs you might even have to be re-interviewd and then denied the job you have perhaps been in for 10 years etc. No I think it's a terrible idea. I see no good to come of it what so ever.
Why will you not have to worry about the ferry workers going on strike?
if you depend on penalty rates, overtime etc that's all going to be taken away, how are hundreds of people around the country going to be able to pay their bills, feed their kids etc. When they are already struggling?
I see the country dividing into two ends like I said Rich and poor to richer and poorer.
and I won't have to worry about stupid ferry workers going on strike and ruining my day about their pay!!!!!!
What do u guys think?????
yes and thank goodness the mere serfs will no longer dare be able to demand better conditions and disrupt you:rolleyes:
reAllytee
21-03-2006, 22:31
Some jobs you might even have to be re-interviewd and then denied the job you have perhaps been in for 10 years etc. No I think it's a terrible idea. I see no good to come of it what so ever.
Thats funny because my partner had to do this a year ago now so really its not making a difference in that case because if a company wanted to do it before they did & if they want to do it now they will also. Not really a big change for some corporations really because they were @sses to begin with & will be @sses after it all too.
We need reform but yeah lets see if this ends up being the type of reform we really need.
Could say more but i wont.
That's very true Allyoo, but I could be wrong if it happens now you have even less of a leg to stand on to fight for your rights as ummm your rights are being taken away!! I maybe very mistaken on that information though.
Sorry if i sounded harsh before, but this is a subject im really passionate about.
As we speak (or type) my DH bosses have advertised positions (that are already filled) in the Phillipines offering less than half of what my DH and his counterparts recieve, and a furnished room, So I just cant believe that it is right that thousands of families be forced to sell or move from their homes or worse because they can no longer afford them so that a select few can recieve a bettter office, an even huger salary, and a pleasant trip to work is fair.
and hopefully that is the last thing i have to say about that :o
yes and thank goodness the mere serfs will no longer dare be able to demand better conditions and disrupt you:rolleyes:
I know I'm commenting from another state, but if you have any idea about the building of our railway from Perth to Mandurah - you'd be realising that the reasons for strikes are usually not warranted and cost millions of dollars - for us taxpayers. I'm only assuming that the principles are similar here to the ferry workers which kiwibird was talking about.
After lots of contact with the mining industries too, I have to say that there are a lot of strikes that are not for what I would see as better conditions - only 2 flavours of icecream available rather than 4!! Or Joe blow has been dismissed and it all seems so unfair so lets go on strike - however, a lot of the people who end up striking don't even know said Joe Blow (not his real name) and fact is that if the real truth got out that people would realise that he was in fact a naughty boy and needed to be dismissed.
There are far better ways to lobby for better conditions than striking!!!
That is true pegasus, but there are still times when it is valid and necessary, and it should be a right every Australian be able to exercise.
Erin I think when you or someone you know is directly affected you can say what you please. If it meant that I would be wondering if my husband had a job next week I'd be pretty darn passionate about it as well.
It makes me look at my old work mates and think gosh some of them are struggling have been for years..What now???
I agree Pegasus about looking at alternatives to striking..To prepare a strike through a union is quite a task, and you have to go through a heap of people and write letters tell them the date you want it etc. If you were to just gather everyone together and go and strike that can be an instant dismissal without the new reforms. Striking is a last resort in some cases...although if the only choices of ice cream where vanilla and banana I would arrange a strike to get some chocolate in there :D
Mamaduke
21-03-2006, 22:52
The reforms will:
Not cut minimum and award classification wages
Not abolish awards
Not remove the right to join a union
Not take away the right to strike
Not outlaw union agreements
Not abolish the AIRC.
And it will still be everyone's right.
reAllytee
21-03-2006, 22:59
That's very true Allyoo, but I could be wrong if it happens now you have even less of a leg to stand on to fight for your rights as ummm your rights are being taken away!! I maybe very mistaken on that information though.
Yeah maybe for some but i wont even go into the dramas we are going through with his work atm due to him receiving workers comp.
They actually decided that because he was only able to work 6hrs a day for 4 days a week that he would have to start work at 7am just incase he had any appts he had to go to that day as heaven forbid he needs extra time off for an injury they helped cause etc etc.
Oh blah im so not getting into this because im already sh!tty enough about the cr@p employers carry on with or what they do etc it all just makes me cranky.
But im afraid i agree with peg in that some places strike over stupid things like icecream flavours & i know this for a fact as my sisters fiance used to work on construction sites as a plumber & oh my some of the stories he has its ridiculous ! Thats why he got out of it because he was sick of all the pathetic things going on from both sides.
hehe, hi Carly :D
yes 'technically' all these things will still be in place, they will simply find other ways around it, there is always someone willing to work cheaper or more hrs. Casuals will no longer be able to claim unfair dismissal, nor will people employed by a company with employees numbering less than 20. If you dont agree to something, they fire you and get someone in to do it cheaper.
Sorry guys, it scares the **** out of me what this will do long term.
reAllytee
21-03-2006, 23:02
LOL Carly i was wonderin when you would be along ....... :p
reAllytee
21-03-2006, 23:05
Sorry guys, it scares the **** out of me what this will do long term.
I agree Erin totally & especially when its our loved ones jobs that could be on the line.
But to be honest i was scared before all of this started anyways only because i saw what a "corporation" really acted like with my old workplace & now Evan's.
What a sad sad world we live in when people like that can do what they want when they want. *sigh*
I agree Pegasus about looking at alternatives to striking..To prepare a strike through a union is quite a task, and you have to go through a heap of people and write letters tell them the date you want it etc. If you were to just gather everyone together and go and strike that can be an instant dismissal without the new reforms. Striking is a last resort in some cases...although if the only choices of ice cream where vanilla and banana I would arrange a strike to get some chocolate in there :D
Actually - I've decided I can't live without my Light Cappuccino icecream (where the coffee flavour is from Dome:D
Seriously though - the striking thing does annoy me - and a statement about it being a right is a bit overboard as far as I'm concerned. I've worked where others have been gone on strike (and I had the opportunity to if I wanted to join them) - it was an absolute joke, didn't achieve what the workers wanted it to and was just seen as an opportunity to get out of work for a bit.
Ally - I'm not sure about how much the reforms will actually be about worker's comp - as far as I know - not at all. If you want to talk worker's comp - happy to talk pm. (I've worked in worker's comp for 2 years (case management and rehab) and DH (insurance and now a state manager of workers comp department for a big firm) for 15years). There are differences from state to state, but some similarities. Definitely some frustrating items that come up with individual cases.
As for unfair dismissal - there will be grounds against it. What the new reforms are to guard against is the small business who can't afford to keep employees over off seasons etc.
Mamaduke
21-03-2006, 23:11
I've been watching this thread from the start waiting for the 'sweeping statements' to begin!!
You've got to remember though, it's in the unions' best interests to make every worker petrified of these reforms...
there are alot of people who make alot of money working for unions, and if "Joe Citizen" decides he can get a better deal by talking with his employer direct, therefore not needing to belong to a union...well that spells big troubles for unions all over Australia doesn't it?
Ana Gram
21-03-2006, 23:20
There is also the flip side of that where people discover that they now have to negotiate for their current job and get screwed over. My DP is a c*** negotiator and will get screwed over if he has to do this.
reAllytee
21-03-2006, 23:20
Oh of course Carly !
My sisters fiance when working in construction HAD to be part of a union otherwise he couldnt step foot onto a worksite otherwise they would strike :rolleyes:
So you had NO choice in fact in that case so yeah they dont want to lose the money they get from all this sort of stuff & yeah sorry but i dont like their bully boy tactics either.
Im just scared either way ya know ?
Thanks peg will do so if things get worse :D
I just think as i said before that if the corps were @sses before they still will be so in regards to us though Evan could get sacked if they decided "oh sorry now your job doesnt exist" especially now he is costing them & their insurers money.
Maybe we are stressing for no reason but still it leaves a sickly feeling in your tummy.
But as i said we do need change i just worry if this is the right way.
Funny thing is that when I worked for a shop (part of the SDA union) I saw as a 15year old casual that the things the union would print in their magazine as to the cases where they had successful reenployment or other things which they saw as a win, I realised that the same people would have been able to get the same outcome with a belief in themselves that they weren't being treated right. I started thinking unions were superfluous.
Goes hand in hand with the stuff I've printed before about uni student guilds... Union fees shouldn't be compulsory - if a guild or union (when I was with the shop I had to belong to the SDA and when at uni I had to belong to the guild, but haven't belonged to any union since) is providing a worthwhile service then they wouldn't need to make their membership compulsory.
reAllytee
21-03-2006, 23:22
There is also the flip side of that where people discover that they now have to negotiate for their current job and get screwed over. My DP is a c*** negotiator and will get screwed over if he has to do this.
As i said Chelle my partner had to do so about a year ago with his work as they are well yeah idiots to put it nicely & while granted he has smarts he isnt into confrontation so in that environment yeah well we are lucky he is still working.
Mamaduke
21-03-2006, 23:23
Hey Pegasus....
How did I go in that student union raffle!!!????:laughing:
Hey Pegasus....
How did I go in that student union raffle!!!????:laughing:
Sorry - they must have seen you coming from a distance and didn't want their precious poster used as a dartboard. On a totally different aside - my hubby flew to Melbourne about a month ago and sat next to the said gentleman...I asked him if he spoke to him or asked for an autograph (would have definitely sent that one to you), but he said he looked very sickly and he was worried he was going to hit him with his walking stick (Gough had one, not my hubby!!). He was happier on his return journey when he sat next to Andrew Vlahov.
Sorry - now back to the topic.:rolleyes:
Mamaduke
21-03-2006, 23:31
Sorry - they must have seen you coming from a distance and didn't want their precious poster used as a dartboard. On a totally different aside - my hubby flew to Melbourne about a month ago and sat next to the said gentleman...I asked him if he spoke to him or asked for an autograph (would have definitely sent that one to you), but he said he looked very sickly and he was worried he was going to hit him with his walking stick (Gough had one, not my hubby!!). He was happier on his return journey when he sat next to Andrew Vlahov.
Sorry - now back to the topic.:rolleyes:
Oh well...not to worry!
But bigger news....Andrew Vlahov...hubba hubba!!!!!:smiliedance:
reAllytee
21-03-2006, 23:36
.Andrew Vlahov...hubba hubba!!!!!:smiliedance:
See i knew you were a good woman Carly !!!!!
He was the reason i loved basketball so much :o
Hey - I thought no one out of Perth would know who he really is. Had to laugh though (Did I mention my brother went to kindy with him? - no? well that was my mother's best brush with fame I think) - hubby brought home AV's business card, but didn't even get an autograph from Gough.
Okay - who's going to bring this thread back onto track? Have kiwibird and coops gone to bed? Darn - I was looking for a meaty thread to get my teeth into.
I think that not everyone will have to negotiate their contract...in the past I've had the choice of an EBA and a WPA (the WPA is self-negotiated). Yes, there will be a danger of the fact that if you don't want to sign, then you won't be hired, but at least you know from the start that there are aspects of the workplace that you don't agree to. All of the cards are laid on the table.
I've been watching this thread from the start waiting for the 'sweeping statements' to begin!!
You've got to remember though, it's in the unions' best interests to make every worker petrified of these reforms...
there are alot of people who make alot of money working for unions, and if "Joe Citizen" decides he can get a better deal by talking with his employer direct, therefore not needing to belong to a union...well that spells big troubles for unions all over Australia doesn't it?
The thing is Carly, its not just scare tactics, Its actually already happening to people right now!! My husband is in serious danger of losing his job, to people from overseas who will work for much much less, and I feeel so guilty for hoping that it is someone elses husband there and not mine. :(
kiwibird27
22-03-2006, 09:07
The reason I write this is because New Zealand introduced this about 7 years ago and there was huge outcry there too - however most of it was just hype - they now have a better way of dealing with employment issues with an employment tribunal (court) and individual case managers when a problem arises rather than having to pay huge union fees and rely on them to help u fight - it also meant as a single person I could negotiate more holidays in lieu of family days, higher pay rate, and the centre i worked for could afford to send us long distance for courses because they didn't have to pay the rediculous 50 cents a km traveling costs set out in the award, we just negotiated a fair flat rate if we took our own vehicles. Staff with families could then negotiate better conditions for themselves etc - much more flexible
Coopsntilly - u don't sound harsh, I wanted both sides of the coin!!!
I think it will affect those groups who can't negotiate the most like very low paid factory workers etc, who could only ever get better conditions by forcing the hand of management with strikes - I don't think this includes ferry drivers and engineers , think they are grown up enough to negotiate themselves, and u should of seen the amount of people who's days they ruined around here - its rediculous!!!!
I would say it's the immigration laws most at fault for the rise in overseas workers on special visas, these visas are obviously really easy to get for large companies - If theworkers are permanent residents though then i have no problem with this, they got into Australia on their own merits or as refugees!!!
I can't help thinking though as one section of a company closes another expands as more cash flow arises, if companies don't grow they stand still or go backwards, perhaps its time for re-training of our workforce so we can all work in more diverse areas???
This will also be fantastic for small business, as many of u know the current laws make it very difficult to sack very bad staff once they are permanent and it doesn't take many bad staff to start running your small business down!!!!
MORE OPINIONS???
Mamaduke
22-03-2006, 09:21
The thing is Carly, its not just scare tactics, Its actually already happening to people right now!! My husband is in serious danger of losing his job, to people from overseas who will work for much much less, and I feeel so guilty for hoping that it is someone elses husband there and not mine. :(
This happened to my husband about 5 years ago when he worked at Holden, and belonged to a union.
Holden decided it was cheaper to get the parts my husband's section made overseas and they all lost their jobs...union didn't lift a finger to help!
The reason I write this is because New Zealand introduced this about 7 years ago and there was huge outcry there too - however most of it was just hype - they now have a better way of dealing with employment issues with an employment tribunal (court) and individual case managers when a problem arises rather than having to pay huge union fees and rely on them to help u fight - it also meant as a single person I could negotiate more holidays in lieu of family days, higher pay rate, and the centre i worked for could afford to send us long distance for courses because they didn't have to pay the rediculous 50 cents a km traveling costs set out in the award, we just negotiated a fair flat rate if we took our own vehicles. Staff with families could then negotiate better conditions for themselves etc - much more flexible
ok, now im confused, and interested, because i have a couple of New Zealander friends who told me that these new reforms have all but destroyed the economy, or is on its way to doing so, as a country as small as NZ simply cannot survive on such a huge gap between wealthy and poor, it doesnt have the population to sustain it, id love to hear more about this kiwibird!
Kirstlea
22-03-2006, 20:33
I agree with Kiwibird
When I worked for a company named Alfa Laval we were all negotiating our own contracts as Kiwibird said and it was fantastic. Infact when I moved to Australia I was amazed that it wasn't in place here. I was very disappointed at the pay rates and standard of working conditions in Aus compared to NZ.
In NZ we are all lead to believe that Aus is far more advanced in everything.
In saying that I love the life style here so I am not going back:p
The people that this system does not work for are the ones that just go to work, go home, go to sleep, get up and do it all over again the next day without any passion for what they do or who they work for.
That may sound harsh but in NZ the self negotiated contracts weeded out the real workers from the don't give a dam workers.
This is how it improved the economy as the businesses found that if they looked after their staff, the staff were more productive so obviously profit margins had to go up.
Basically these reforms will make people care more and sell themselves. We are small business owners but these reforms will not change how we run our business as we only have one worker. We treasure him and look after him anyway as he is a loyal and dedicated worker who cares.
So thats my 2 cents worth, bring it on!!!
Kirsten:D
CrazyBeautiful
22-03-2006, 21:17
I've worked with many Kiwi nurses who say they get $20 an hour less in NZ than they do here. I'm not for the IR changes at all, I'm too attached to my penalty rates.
ohhh me too Gemma and Laclans mum, and i believe (some one correct me if i am wrong) that thankfully NSW nurses are going to be protected from these new laws?
CrazyBeautiful
22-03-2006, 21:29
ohhh me too Gemma and Laclans mum, and i believe (some one correct me if i am wrong) that thankfully NSW nurses are going to be protected from these new laws?
:fingerscrossed: I'd say there would be one massive walk out if the penalties went. Apparently the NSW state government has said that nurses will be exempt from the IR changes and keep their penalties. :smiliedance:
My workplace hashes out a new company wide "Employee Partnership Agreement" with the CEPU every few years, the union has been involved in this since the company's inception and without the clout of the union, we'd be much worse off.
I don't think our organisation will employ individual AWAs, with a corporation of this size it's easier to stick to the EPA arrangement which covers all roles. I do feel sorry for those people who cannot negiotiate for themselves and cannot access adequate union representation, they're the ones that will get screwed by these AWAs.
Mischief
23-03-2006, 07:53
The company I work for has an Award and an EBA. I wouldnt want to work anywhere else!
We get brilliant over time rates....double time as soon as over time starts, mainland pay parity, and really wonderful return to work schemes for mums (or dads if needed). Each year we get a 4 year pay rise as negotiated in our EBA by the unions. AND this company has agreed to keep our EBA in standing for at least the next 3 years.
Ive never worked anywhere that looked after its staff as well as this one, or known anyone who has.....
The new IR laws horrify and discust me! Minimum wage is about to become alot lower! People will be told "not to come in monday"....and what about this crud about employers being able to cut wages in "non peak times" ie...most of the year other than Xmas and Easter!
kiwibird27
23-03-2006, 09:23
I don't honestly believe this will happen - the good employers will not suddenly become evil and completely turn on employees, they would be stupid if they did. I'm thinking it will just give employers and employees the ability to negotiate fairer contracts for all, Penalty rates are great for employees but for smaller businesses penalty rates mean they can't afford to keep people on for overtime because it just becomes too expensive!!!!
The workforce need to understand we need to take care of business because they are the ones creating jobs in the beginning, I got sick of staff who stayed and extra 30 min's on a busy day demanding overtime when on occasions i let them go home early and they still got paid - it's not about what workers can get out of employers (which seems normal here) it's about creating a fairer system??????
gemma&lachlansmum, is really hard to compare wages between the 2 countries cause NZ (except Auckland)is much cheaper to live in than here.
Jobs aren't forever either if u get fired because of restructuring etc go and get another job, upskill, plenty of work out there for those who are flexible and adaptable, Being unemployed for awhile is not the end of the world!!!!!!!!
PLEASE NOTE - sometimes I am talking as the devils advocate
I don't honestly believe this will happen - the good employers will not suddenly become evil and completely turn on employees, they would be stupid if they did. I'm thinking it will just give employers and employees the ability to negotiate fairer contracts for all,
The thing is it can now happen, all this and more, and yes some wonderful employers wont change the way they do things, but for everyone that doesnt, many will, why wouldnt they turn on employees when there is always someone younger etc who will work for less?
heather.beach@optusnet.co
23-03-2006, 09:56
My first thought on seeing the IR reforms was that it was a backward step in the relationship between employers and employees - that it was Australia trying to keep American business happy - and American work ethic is not something we want over here!
I come from the UK and have been shocked at some of the outmoded management practices which seem to be common over here - but I may just have been very unlucky in the businesses I have had exposure to. I've found far less regard for appraisals, clear goals, good communication between management and staff... I hope this doesn't offend and that there are people on this list who DON'T belong to organisations like that.
In general legislation should only be there to support what makes good sense in business. And good sense is creating a clear understanding between employers and employees and a respect between both. Reality is that some businesses will realise that it makes good sense to be clear with employees, create good training and retention programmes and others will just not. No amount of legislation will "cure" businesses that in general do not understand WHY this makes sense.
kiwibird27
23-03-2006, 11:05
Aren't those issues that everyone faces anyway???? companies can be re-structured or sold on and people are put out of work all the time - Changes to IR don't mean he can be fired for leaving to go to the hospital for his son, unless he's a casual - which he could be asked to leave without reason before anyway!!!! he can still have them up about that and get reinstated, it just won't involve union bully tactics, it will involve mediation thru a different system that is set up to protect everyones rights??!!
Keep us posted about what happens on Monday Kobbles and coopsnitilly!!!!
My husband isn't even a permanent resident, and I am caught up in the law changes that occured for New Zealanders meaning if he or i lose our job no dole etc for us, if we injure ourselves anywhere other than work - no disability payment for us, we have no safety net whatsoever in this country (although we do love it here) , Lots of people in this country are like this, but thats just how it is, if it happens then you just have to deal with it???!!!
If us being more flexible in the workplace means we get the job over an Australian, then so be it to survive!!! That would be my main concern if I was Australian!!! Cause theres lots more people in a more desperate situation to work than us out there who will undercut and accept lower terms than us!!!! P.S. We do both work just being devils advocate again
PLEASE ACCEPT MY APOLOGY IF I OFFEND - I AM REALLY INTERESTED IN WHAT HAPPENS ABOUT THIS SUBJECT IN REALITY IN THE FUTURE!!!!!
I hear ya Kobbles, its all well and good to say just get another job, retrain etc, but the reality for many many Australians is that they live week to week, on one income, and the loss of even a wks pay would result in utter devastation on the family, penalty rates, over time etc, give many people their only chance at making it throught the week, as their base rate, especially when supporting a family, just doesnt cover it, i am sorry but i just dont see how these reforms will be fairer for everyone, they will only benefit a small select group of, namely business owners and high earners, with the cost of living in Australia, everyone needs to be able to earn a decent living, no matter what they do, everyones job is valid and important.
What would we do without the cleaners, the bus drivers, the garbos? Their jobs and livelihoods should be valued just as much as the next person.
I find this all very interesting because I actually work in Payroll for a national firm...
Basically if you are covered by a State award, you will not be effected for at least 3 years with the Work Choices legislations as it stands... they will then be phased out onto a more streamlined federal award system over a number of years...The victorian system has recently seen changes in line with this that actually occurred prior to the new legislation.... and have seen their working conditions, in our industry at least, improve....
They cannot disadvantage you from you current working conditions, and in fact some proposed changes are actually advantageous, depending on your current award....
As it stands there are so many differences from state to state awards in the same industry, that this will actually create a fairer and more consistent system across the whole of the nation....
I think a lot of the hype has come from the whole union versus politician debate... and a lot of misinformation.... meaning people are objecting to it, without really knowing what is involved!
Besides, many states have got together to launch a high court appeal, so even though it is due to come into play this month, its fate still hangs in the air....
Each state will still maintain their own industrial relations commissions which will continue to fight for the rights of their states workers!
As I work for a Union I am not going to get too involved in this debate as it is obvious where my position lies. If anyone does want further info on this issue however the ACTU has a great web site with heaps of info on this subject. I will try to post a link but the websit is: http://www.actu.asn.au/
http://www.actu.asn.au
kiwibird27
24-03-2006, 09:32
Good luck Kobbles - I really do hope it wil be okay!!!!!!!!
Mamaduke
24-03-2006, 09:39
And here is the link for the Work Choices website...
minus the scare tactics...just the facts!;)
https://www.workchoices.gov.au/
Angelmist♥
24-03-2006, 15:03
And here is the link for the Work Choices website...
minus the scare tactics...just the facts!;)
https://www.workchoices.gov.au/
Lol was just about to do that Mamaduke!
If you actually take the time to read it, you may realise that in the majority of cases people are going to be alot better off....
kiwibird27
25-03-2006, 22:03
Excellent Marmaduke!!!!!!!!!!
OK, I tried to stay out of this one, I really did, but here I am.....
I think we all need to remember that bias applies to everything that is written. Marmaduke has posted the work choices website, and that's fine, but to say that these are the facts is misguided I'm afraid. The information on that site was written by the people who wrote the workchoices legislation. Of course it is going to protray the IR reforms in a positive light. It is the intention of the website to encourage people to accept the IR reforms. In the same way, if I posted a website from the union movement, it would be biased. Their job is to encourage people to not accept the IR reforms.
A word about strikes, which were mentioned early in this thread. When a union organises a strike it is usually the very last option available. We don't see all the bargaining and negotiation that happens before a strike happens. Usually there are months of negotiations taking place to try to reach an agreement, and it is only when the bargaining breaks down that strike action is considered. Most unions don't like going on strike because members lose pay for that day and it is difficult for some families to go without the pay.
I've been on strike twice. Both times there had been nearly 12 months of negotiations between the union and the employers. The union had shifted a lot in their position, but the government was refusing to budge. We did the negotiation thing for ages, then occasionally worked to rule - this is quite good, shows the employers all the extra things that employees do without being paid to do it. Then, after members voting, a strike happened. It was the last resort really. Most unions don't just strike for the sake of it, and of course they inconvenience people, otherwise they wouldn't be at all effective. Of course, I'm not talking about all unions here, but most of the time, this is how strikes work.
There you go, my 2 cents worth.
Bron
Am i the only one not concerned about the change in IR ???? Think its brillant - will mean i can negotiate my own deals instead of being stuck on the standard award, and I won't have to worry about stupid ferry workers going on strike and ruining my day about their pay!!!!!!
What do u guys think?????
You were already able to negotiate above the award before this legislation - people did this all the time - eg asking for raises, better work conditions, eg more family friendly hours.
What this legislation is about is increasing the number of provisions that you are now able to negotiate away - eg as workers we no longer have an absolute right to meal breaks, penalty rates, overtime pay, redundancy pay etc - we are now 'free' to give these things away - what a gift!
Also the previously independent AIRC is no longer able to set the minimum wage, this is now the domain of the partisan and Orwellianly named "Fair Pay Commission". (Edited to add) The irony of the name Fair Pay Commission is that the AIRC had an obligation to ensure there was fairness in the way minimum wages were set, the new Commission under the terms created by the Howard Government has no such obligation. You can expect to see the minimum wage fall in real terms over time as the increases will be nowhere near as generous as those given by the AIRC.
Previous generations of Australian workers worked hard to get decent working conditions, and they have been vastly deminished by this Government. These new laws take away the safety net that many of us have taken for granted.
Edited to add: transport workers go on strike regarding pay and work conditions including workhours - but hey, if you prefer to use public transport operated by people getting paid low wages and working long hours, I'm glad for you - personally I think the right to strike (or withold labour) is a basic worker's right and one that needs to be protected - even if it causes occasional inconvenience.
Mamaduke said:
The reforms will:
Not cut minimum and award classification wages
Not abolish awards
Not remove the right to join a union
Not take away the right to strike
Not outlaw union agreements
Not abolish the AIRC.
As always the devil is in the detail.
It is true that awards will not be abolished, so if you stay in the same job you will have some protection. But most people change jobs every few years, so if you go for a new job you will be exposed to the new IR regime. Even sections of the Government have chosen to keep people whose contract has expired only if they would sign AWA's rather than stick with the Award -that means their contracts weren't renewed if they weren't prepared to come off the Award - where's the choice for workers there? That is a real world example of the kind of stuff we can look forward to.
AWA's used to meet the no disadvantage test, now they can undercut the Award rates apart from 5 basic work conditions. The protected work conditions are: the current minimum wage of $12.75/hr; 10 days sick leave; 4 weeks annual leave; unpaid parental leave; 38 hour week, but no extra pay for overtime, afterhours or weekend work.
That meant even if you were working in a non-unionised workplace you could be sure that experts had judged that you were as well off as someone working in a unionised workplace. Now prospective employees will have to trust that their new employer has not undercut their pay and conditions - after all, how many of us will realistically take an individual AWA to a union for them to give it the once over before saying yes to an offer of work?
Unions will still exist, but their powers will be diminished. Likewise the right to strike will exist, but will be diminished.
The AIRC will still exist, but it will be a shell of it's former self - and no longer have a role in setting the minimum wage.
CrazyBeautiful
26-03-2006, 18:35
This is not to offend anyone, but..... if the IR reforms worked in NZ, like people are saying, then why do so many Kiwi's come here every year looking for better working conditions?
P.S. Am not anti-Kiwi as my father is one!
Kirstlea
26-03-2006, 19:59
No offence taken :)
I certainly did not move to Australia for better work conditionings I moved for the climate and my family. My mother married an Australian and they moved back to Aus for my dads family hence why I am here.
I had better working conditions in NZ. I am now self employed as I have given up on employers.
It is a hard call to generalise, there are many reasons why Kiwis move to Aus I wouldn't think it is all about employment.
I find this all very interesting because I actually work in Payroll for a national firm...
Basically if you are covered by a State award, you will not be effected for at least 3 years with the Work Choices legislations as it stands... they will then be phased out onto a more streamlined federal award system over a number of years...The victorian system has recently seen changes in line with this that actually occurred prior to the new legislation.... and have seen their working conditions, in our industry at least, improve....
They cannot disadvantage you from you current working conditions, and in fact some proposed changes are actually advantageous, depending on your current award....
As it stands there are so many differences from state to state awards in the same industry, that this will actually create a fairer and more consistent system across the whole of the nation....
I think a lot of the hype has come from the whole union versus politician debate... and a lot of misinformation.... meaning people are objecting to it, without really knowing what is involved!
Besides, many states have got together to launch a high court appeal, so even though it is due to come into play this month, its fate still hangs in the air....
Each state will still maintain their own industrial relations commissions which will continue to fight for the rights of their states workers!
I agree, it will be interesting for you. Part of the so called flexibility the Government has touted as a positive is that with individual contracts each person will be free to either have meal breaks or not, have penalty rates or not, have overtime pay or not. That is instead of having pretty much the same terms and conditions of work for people doing similar jobs, in theory, now every worker will have their own individualised work conditions and pay - sounds like a nightmare for payroll, not simpler. However, I say in theory because if business and government really thought this would happen this would increase complexity, rather than simplify things for employers.
As far as I can see it will simplify things for employers only if they put their workers on individual AWA's but people don't contest the work conditions and terms offered and pretty much accept what is offered. For eg, how will teams such as production lines, work if everyone has their own agreements regarding meal breaks, work hours etc. The only way the simplification argument works is if employers now pretty much unilaterally determine worker's wages and conditions. And this is true - they now only have five minimum standards they have to observe - and it remains to be seen how many workers have the time and ability to negotiate superior wages and conditions for themselves, by themselves - AWA's aren't exactly light reading IYKWIM.
kiwibird27
27-03-2006, 10:12
I'm a kiwi and moved here for better climate and lifestyle, to be honest N.Z. employers were much better, at least u could take them as being good on there word unlike (in my experience) a vast amount of Australian employers lying to u and trying to take u for all your worth, had better conditions in NZ in fact child care workers now have pay parity with primary school teachers (they are 3 year trained though and need to be registered)
In case anyone is interested, in Brisbane there will be a protest against the IR changes.
Brisbane rally
When: Wednesday, 28 June at 12 noon
Where: Southbank Cultural Forecourt
March through the city to Celebration Lawn at Roma St Parkland.
To find out if there are going to be any rallies in your area on June 28, you can click on this link to the ACTU website
http://www.rightsatwork.com.au/campaigns/weekofaction
vanillabean
06-06-2006, 23:40
As a nurse also, ther is no way I would work varying shifts particularly the crappy old night shift for no penalties. Actually I doubt anyone would.
SassyMummy
07-06-2006, 01:08
I don't work, so I really don't know all that much about the IR reforms...
From what I DO know, however, I certainly think it's a pretty unfair system.
DP works as an apprentice, and works SHOCKING hours...from 10-10 5 days a week (including most weekends). I think it's unfair that he shouldn't be allowed penalty rates when he works such cr*p hours for such piddly pay...and because he does so he basically never gets to see us. If he doesn't get paid penalty rates, then he has very little income, and therefore, when he CAN spend time with DD and I...we're too strapped for cash to actually DO anything together...
I also don't like that bosses can fire people for whatever reason they choose. My friend Belinda works at a pharmacy, and a girl there was fired recently because the boss didn't like her because she smoked. The boss thought that women who smoked were skanky...and so fired this girl. Of course, she gave another reason for the firing, but later went on to reveal the REAL reason to my friend and a couple of other workers who she gets along with.
I think a lot of people have been misled about what is really due to the IR reforms and what are reforms that are really nothing to do with the new legislation.
As a shop assistant (I worked at a Target from when I was 15 till I was 25, so during the Labor government), when I commenced there, we had one rate from 8 - 5 on a week day, Thursday nights were at a higher rate as were Saturday afternoons. As time progressed and more trading hours were introduced, we were paid penalty rates for Sundays as well, and if you worked outside 8-5, you also got penalty rates. By the time I left their employ, there were no penalty rates for Thursday nights (or other nights that we had late night trading), Saturday afternoons, Sundays or outside of 8-5. All I'm pointing out here is that this wasn't unique to Target, I was under the SDA (Shop Distributive Allies Union) - which I had to be a member of (my fees were taken out of my pay and I had no say about this), and this all happened before the IR reforms.
On another hand, (in response to Sassymum's comments on the pharmacy assistant who was fired for smoking), I'd suspect there is more to this story than is known about. Bosses can't fire for no reason - there has to be reasons such as productivity, failure to work to work to an agreement ...My sister owns a small business and did previously fire an employee due to lack of productivity (the employee kept a diary on how she hated all at the place of employment and ways that she avoided work - with derogatory comments about the customers), anyway - to cut a long story short, she had to reinstate this employee under the old system, but the firing would have stood under this system. Always an interesting situation. If the assistant who had been fired was due to her smoking, then she would have grounds to appeal - I think there is info missing here.
SamanthaJane
07-06-2006, 01:34
In a few words...
I find them scary indeed...
They have their positives and negatives, but in my opinion there are way too many negatives...
Business owners already have power... now the government is just giving them more and more...
But then some argue, they are "owners" they deserve the power....
I am worried about what this means the next time i go for a job...
So no, i cant say i will find them to be a very refreshing experience....
As some of you may know I have done data entry at home for a few yrs now to help bring in some extra cash. I get paid about $16.50 an hr, not a huge amount, but certainly enough to help contribute to our family financially, it worked out about $250-$300 extra a week.
Anyway today we get an email informing us that as of this week, I will only be paid $7 an hr, and due to the new laws, there is nothing I can do about it. $7 an hr is not an acceptable wage for an adult, and I will be sending them a not so polite email in return telling them to shove it and Im sure they will find someone in India or something willing to do it.
A friend of mine who works at Spotlight Wollongong is being forced to sign away all her entitlements for a 2c an hr pay rise, apparently this is across the board in spotlight. The governments response? "its better to have a job than no job at all' and those words scared me, because to me it is the beginning of something bigger, an American style working class poor, where we will be conned or forced into accepting that it is better to be working for $7 an hr with no entitlements than to not be working at all.
No matter what work you do, as an adult in Australia, you should be paid enough to keep up with the cost of living, there is no reason why someone should be working full time yet still barely be able to survive, I find the long term implications of what is already starting to happen very scary.
CarolineF
07-06-2006, 14:05
My dh left his job in february after being offered a job with more money and generous perks as part of his contract. He took it, and when the new laws came into force his boss took away his car allowance on the basis that it was costing the company too much money when his wife's car was sitting on the driveway unsused....a heap of a car. So my husband lst almost $800 pcm and went back to the same salary he was on prior to leaving his old job. His boss also had in the contract that he could work from home. As soon as he started he said he wanted him in the office every day.:thumbsdown:
The new powers have given employers the chance to negotiate contracts with people in order to atrract them, but also allows them to renege based on finance issues, productivity etc and there is nothing the employee can do that would not put him/her at risk of court proceedings.:no:
Its sick.:mad:
SamanthaJane
07-06-2006, 15:25
Coopsntilly- To put it simply- That really sucks! I think its so unfair:mad:
The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer...:rolleyes:
What a lovely world to be bringing my child into...........
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.9 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.