A Jewish Woman Denounces Circumcision

[MotherNurture]

A Jewish Woman Denounces Circumcision (http://www.unassistedchildbirth.com/miscarticles/circarticle.html)

"Circumcision began at a time when humanity as a whole was growing up and entering a new level of self-consciousness. Sexual guilt and shame were strong, and those who were able to suppress their sexual feelings were looked upon as virtuous and God-like. Sex was dirty and babies, which were a result of sex, were thought to be dirty as well - unless they were cleansed of their mother's sin by either Baptism or circumcision. There are actually Jewish writings stating women are "unclean."

Circumcision was also a way of dominating the individual and subjecting him to the control of the group. Individuality is frightening to those whose identity is totally wrapped up in the group. Losing a member means losing a part of what they consider "the self." And so, just as the cutting of the hair in the military sends the message that the individual is now the property of the state, the cutting of the penis sends the message that he is now the property of his religion or the institution.

Thankfully humanity is evolving and many of the ******** rituals of the past are no longer being carried out."

[MummaBear03]

Wow, interesting read. I wouldn't circumcise because I see no reason for it but it's interesting that someone of that religion would have those views. Good to see people thinking outside of what they've grown up to believe.

[Mamalicious]

It is interesting that people who are religiously obligated to circumsize their sons do not do it, it would be hard to to against your whole culture. :dizzy:

Maybe one day...

[UmmInayah]

I don't know how I feel after reading this.

I think it's really sad that she has "denounced" something that is from her religion. I mean, if you do that you can't exactly say you're religious, or Jewish if you don't believe the WHOLE faith, if that makes sense?

I don't necessarily think it's a good thing at all. But each to their own.

[Milliner]

Many Jewish mothers and fathers have privately recognised the painful, harmful and dangerous aspects of circumcision. Not circumcising is the choice of a minority of Jews now, but new ideas always start with a minority before they are accepted by the majority.

Regardless of whether he is circumcised, the child of a Jewish mother is considered a Jew under Jewish law. For parents who want a ceremony but not a circumcision, alternatives rituals are being developed. Many mohels are finding other ways of staying true to their faith, minus the cutting. Some have changed the ceremony to conform to the wishes of the parents, often just naming the baby.

There are numerous parts of the Torah which use the same language to refer to other rituals and observances which are, today, carried out in synagogues. But of course that was just an aside; my main point was that Jews refrain from obeying God's explicit command to kill homosexuals and adulterers, so it is absurd to hide behind "God told us to do it" as an excuse for GM. It is obvious that you can find reasons not to obey the millennia-old word of God when modern sensibilities contradict it strongly enough.

[han]

Many Jewish mothers and fathers have privately recognised the painful, harmful and dangerous aspects of circumcision. Not circumcising is the choice of a minority of Jews now, but new ideas always start with a minority before they are accepted by the majority.

Regardless of whether he is circumcised, the child of a Jewish mother is considered a Jew under Jewish law. For parents who want a ceremony but not a circumcision, alternatives rituals are being developed. Many mohels are finding other ways of staying true to their faith, minus the cutting. Some have changed the ceremony to conform to the wishes of the parents, often just naming the baby.

There are numerous parts of the Torah which use the same language to refer to other rituals and observances which are, today, carried out in synagogues. But of course that was just an aside; my main point was that Jews refrain from obeying God's explicit command to kill homosexuals and adulterers, so it is absurd to hide behind "God told us to do it" as an excuse for GM. It is obvious that you can find reasons not to obey the millennia-old word of God when modern sensibilities contradict it strongly enough.

Circumcision is maintained because unlike the issue with homsexuality, it's an inherent cultural tradition.

I also don't think that circumcision of males can be placed anywhere in the same class as gential modification of women. It's just not the same thing, and detracts from arguments against true GM, in my opinion.

I find the judgemental nature of discussion on this abhorrent.

[forbetoel]

I think it's really sad that she has "denounced" something that is from her religion. I mean, if you do that you can't exactly say you're religious, or Jewish if you don't believe the WHOLE faith, if that makes sense?

.

I don't know much about the Jewish faith, but I would assume the whole faith doesn't rest on slicing penis'.

I am Catholic and I don't see much wrong with Contraception...that doesn't make me any less faithful to my religion at all.

Same thing really.

[han]

I don't know much about the Jewish faith, but I would assume the whole faith doesn't rest on slicing penis'.

I am Catholic and I don't see much wrong with Contraception...that doesn't make me any less faithful to my religion at all.

Same thing really.

It's pretty fundamental to male Jewish identity, actually.

I have a male Jewish friend who was not circumcised by his parents as his parents' marriage was interfaith and his father did not want him to have it done. He said it's had an extremely negative impact on his Jewish identity - he's actually considering having an adult circumcision. This is not because people have teased him, or made him feel bad about it, it's because it's a fundamental element of Jewish tradition and he did not go through it.

I actually did a research essay on the impact of cicrumcision on personal male identity amongst Jewish men, and the general concensus is that they definitely prefer it.

[Mamalicious]

My DH says the same as you Marna, that if I don't circ my boys then I'm not a Muslim...I find it pretty offensive (not what you're saying...what my DH says...he says it very differently..) to be told that for this one little thing, I am somehow not Muslim.

Mohammed was born without a foreskin, so cutting of my boys foreskin is unnecessary, not following Mohammed...if I was, then I would leave them as they are.

:iagree: with Milliner and 4boys.

[forbetoel]

han...Like I said, I don't actually know much about the Jewish faith.

However the faith isn't about worshipping a penis. Sure the circ'd penis is a 'tradition' or 'ritual' that is engrained in every aspect of the religion, BUT not believing in the need to circumsise your son, has little to with the faith you have in God.

Traditionally Catholics should not use any birth control (and I never have) but I have Catholic friends who chose to use it, and they are no less a Catholic than me.....every religion has aspects that don't appeal to every follower.

[han]

han...Like I said, I don't actually know much about the Jewish faith.

However the faith isn't about worshipping a penis. Sure the circ'd penis is a 'tradition' or 'ritual' that is engrained in every aspect of the religion, BUT not believing in the need to circumsise your son, has little to with the faith you have in God.

Traditionally Catholics should not use any birth control (and I never have) but I have Catholic friends who chose to use it, and they are no less a Catholic than me.....every religion has aspects that don't appeal to every follower.

That's your prerogative, and as a non literal Jew, I agree. However if I personally make the choice to follow that tradition as many Jewish people choose to, then that's my business. I think my issue here is that if ONE Jewish person says that choose not to, it doesn't justify all those people who call Jews (and anyone else who chooses to circumcise their child) names.

My primary issue here is the high horses anti circumcision members on here seem to have themselves saddled in to.

[Mamalicious]

That's your prerogative, and as a non literal Jew, I agree. However if I personally make the choice to follow that tradition as many Jewish people choose to, then that's my business. I think my issue here is that if ONE Jewish person says that choose not to, it doesn't justify all those people who call Jews (and anyone else who chooses to circumcise their child) names.

My primary issue here is the high horses anti circumcision members on here seem to have themselves saddled in to.

Yes, some people do get a bit uppity about not circing their kids, but they have that right, just as you have the right to circ yours and not be ashamed of it.

Yep, it is your business, but when you choose to discuss it you leave yourself open to comments.

It doesn't justify anone being called names, but it does empower the people who are Jewish and don't want to circ, yet feel that they have to.

[forbetoel]

That's your prerogative, and as a non literal Jew, I agree. However if I personally make the choice to follow that tradition as many Jewish people choose to, then that's my business. I think my issue here is that if ONE Jewish person says that choose not to, it doesn't justify all those people who call Jews (and anyone else who chooses to circumcise their child) names.

My primary issue here is the high horses anti circumcision members on here seem to have themselves saddled in to.

Umm...O.K you are arguing a whole different point all together.

I was simply referring to a PP that stated that she wasn't really Jewish if she denounced circumsision, which is clearly IMO not correct.

You are talking about a whole different topic than me.

I NEVER said anything about Jewish people who chose to follow with the tradition of circumsision, not at all...or ever for that matter.:no:

[Freya]

I think good on her.:thumbsup:

Knowing quite alot about about this religion aswell as others who are pro-circumcision I do not think that any person of either religions who chooses to not support this procedure is denouncing their religion.:no:

[han]

Umm...O.K you are arguing a whole different point all together.

I was simply referring to a PP that stated that she wasn't really Jewish if she denounced circumsision, which is clearly IMO not correct.

You are talking about a whole different topic than me.

I NEVER said anything about Jewish people who chose to follow with the tradition of circumsision, not at all...or ever for that matter.:no:

Well this is discussion is based on an article about Jewish/religious based circumcision.

[forbetoel]

Well this is discussion is based on an article about Jewish/religious based circumcision.

Yes it is...:confused:

How is that relevent to what I personally have said.???

[forbetoel]

I don't know much about the Jewish faith, but I would assume the whole faith doesn't rest on slicing penis'.

I am Catholic and I don't see much wrong with Contraception...that doesn't make me any less faithful to my religion at all.

Same thing really.


My original post...just to clarify..;)

Don't see anything offensive or anti circ in that.:)

[han]

Yes, some people do get a bit uppity about not circing their kids, but they have that right, just as you have the right to circ yours and not be ashamed of it.

Yep, it is your business, but when you choose to discuss it you leave yourself open to comments.

It doesn't justify anone being called a barbarian, but it does empower the people who are Jewish and don't want to circ, yet feel that they have to.

And while I'm here, I googled the thing about Jewih women and menstruation and came up with this (http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/w_islam/impur.htm)


It's not intentionally linked to Islam, that's just how it ended up lol


A significant proportion of Christian analyses of Torah scriptures is innacurate, just for the record, thanks to incorrect translation of Hebrew and Aramaic.

I was outraged by these concepts in their Christian interpretation, which is why I spent a lot of time speaking to Orthodox educated Jews about the issue, and they said it was simply about blood being unclean rather than women being unclean. Given that women bleed more than men (in terms of routing bleeding) then there are more rules regarding women and the inpurity of blood. I am not saying I agree with it, if my partner refused to hug me for seven days because I was menstruating then we would not be together.

You may have said that based on your reading, but what I said wasn't inherently offensive to Islam, whereas saying Jews think women are dirty is simply inaccurate and offensive, and engenders more stereotypes and preconceived biases about Judaism than already exist.

My other point is that Jewish men who aren't circumcised for whatever reason often feel a sense of their Jewish identity is missing, in a sense, and that can't be overlooked.

I also find it frustrating that anti-circumcision members have the gall to talk down men who believe circumcision as right and as having been a positive experience as "not knowing enough about their own willies" amongst other things. For goodness sakes, it's ridiculous.

I just think some of the opinions on this thread are symptomatic of a general opinion of anti-circumcision members and people that they are right, and that whatever anyone else believes about circumciusion is wrong and bordering on evil barbarianism. It doesn't foster much room for constructive discussion, IMO.

[han]

My original post...just to clarify..;)

Don't see anything offensive or anti circ in that.:)

Slicing penis? The religion may not rest on it, but it is an inherent part of Jewish identity and major cultural tradition - and it's not about slicing a penis up, it's about a very small piece of skin being removed.

[forbetoel]

Slicing penis? The religion may not rest on it, but it is an inherent part of Jewish identity and major cultural tradition - and it's not about slicing a penis up, it's about a very small piece of skin being removed.

Sorry wrong wording....:)

My point and only point is that this woman is still Jewish even though she denounces circumsision. That is the only point I was making. I certainly did use the wrong terminology and I apologise for that.:)

However, just as some are in favour of the procedure, others are also against it.
It obviously bothers you, that there is a lot of anti circ threads going on, but they are for a reason...a lot of people are very against it, and they have the right to be against it.

Me, I would never get my sons done, not unless it was medically warranted. BUT....I don't believe that parents who have their sons done are any less loving and don't believe that their motivation is anything other than doing what they believe is best for their son(s)

Once again, I am sorry if my wording offended you, but from my point of veiw when there is no medical reason for it, ciring is slicing a penis. I didn't say chopping, or hacking the penis, I said 'slicing' which would imply a small cut, resulting in the removal of a small piece of skin.

[Scout]

Slicing penis? The religion may not rest on it, but it is an inherent part of Jewish identity and major cultural tradition - and it's not about slicing a penis up, it's about a very small piece of skin being removed.

I completely agree with you on this point, han. It's the cultural tradition that is being honored through the bris - it's the convenant made with God.

I think the Jewish woman in the article not having her son circumcised means bugger all actually; it would be interesting to know if she observes the Sabbath and participates in other Jewish rituals.

I would consider a Jew renouncing circumcision to be significant if the Hassidic Jews in the area that I lived were saying it. That isn't going to happen though - and neither should it.

han - I understand that you are seeing a need to get information across but we try to be pretty cool about these things here on BH. No need to come in with all guns blazing. Welcome by the way! :D

[xkwzit]

I want to remind ppl of the guidelines for language (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=120819) used when posting in any of the circ sections. Some earlier posts have been edited, any more in this thread that require editing will receive infractions.

I have also deleted a bunch of off topic posts. If you want to discuss menstruation and religion, it probably deserves a thread of it's own.

Thanks

[MotherNurture]

I also find it frustrating that anti-circumcision members have the gall to talk down men who believe circumcision as right and as having been a positive experience as "not knowing enough about their own willies" amongst other things. For goodness sakes, it's ridiculous.


Slicing penis? The religion may not rest on it, but it is an inherent part of Jewish identity and major cultural tradition - and it's not about slicing a penis up, it's about a very small piece of skin being removed.

You're insistence that the foreskin is just a little piece of skin affirms the fact that a lot of circumcised men don't know much about intact willies.

http://www.noharmm.org/snip.htm

http://www.norm.org/lost.html

Jen