View Full Version : Ouch - A day at the circumcision palace
Milliner
10-02-2008, 17:47
That poor boy, look how much pain he is in. I will never understand why you would willingly put your child through that
http://www.viceland.com/int/v14n9/htdocs/circs.php?country=au
In Islamic Turkey, circumcision is much more than a surgical procedure. Traditionally occurring between the ages of five and 12, and known as the “first joy,” it’s seen as the first landmark in the boy’s religious life, proof that he is strong, brave, and ready to be called a man. To this end, the procedure is generally performed with local anesthetic or none at all, as the pain is an integral part of the ritual. In the festivities surrounding the circumcision, the boy is made to wear a king’s costume, and the assembled family and friends shower him with gifts and tie gold coins to his belt. Almost 30 percent of Turkish parents, including medical staff, choose the traditional method over the postnatal procedure in hospitals, and in rural Turkey up to 85 percent of circumcisions are performed without any doctor at all.
The “circumcision experts” who are called to perform the ritual instead of medical personnel often inherit their position from their fathers. As a result, the official literature is filled with reports of vomit-inducing botched procedures, some of which end with severed urethras, infections, gangrene, amputation of the penis, and even death.
Kemal Özkan, a 58-year-old qualified paramedic, is a Turkish celebrity. He is known as the Sultan of Circumcision. He has allegedly operated on more than 100,000 children in his 37-year career and his famously outlandish publicity stunts have included performing circumcisions on horseback, on a camel, and in flight.
grass is always greener
10-02-2008, 18:02
Thats terrible. I think its unkind to not use an anesthetic on the child it is being performed on, then make him urinate afterwards, :shame: the poor boy would be in sooo much pain, not too mention the mental side of things.
pinkishbunny
10-02-2008, 18:31
It shouldnt happen!!!:no:
mumx3littlies
10-02-2008, 18:48
Wrong, wrong, wrong:no: You wud never consider operating on any other part of the body without anaesthetic and the penis shud be no different. Children are supposed to be protected by their parents/family:confused:
Shanaynay
10-02-2008, 18:55
I wish I hadn't clicked on that. The pic of the poor boy laying down screaming will haunt me tonight :(
I want to remind ppl of the guidelines for language (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=120819) used when posting in any of the circ sections. Some earlier posts have been edited, any more in this thread that require editing will receive infractions.
Cheers
WorkingClassMum
10-02-2008, 20:42
:(:crying::barf:
:mad::banghead::shame:
I usually say in matters like this each to their own. I have not circumcised my son but that's my decision. if others choose to do it then that's their decision.
I do however think it is very wrong to do this within some sort of anesthetic.
That poor little boy.:(
studyingECS
10-02-2008, 20:47
OMG:(:(:(:(:(:(<thats all i have to say.
MilkOnTap
10-02-2008, 20:47
Oh he is in so much pain...
Scary sad. I was at an aquaintances place today, and noticed her bub was circ.
MotherNurture
11-02-2008, 02:58
Children aren't possessions.
They're people-fellow human beings.
Genital integrity-whole sex organs-is a basic human right.
I really don't see any ethical or moral difference whether the child having his or her totally healthy and completely normal private parts unnecessarily surgically altered for cosmetic or cultural reasons is a newborn, older infant, toddler, adolescent, or teen.
Numbing the tissue before it's taken (stolen?) doesn't lessen the damage inflicted.
Jen
I also wish i had not clicked on it, im not for or against circ as i do not have boys and I feel i am un equipet to coment but ***unnecessary text removed***, if they must do such procedures why not do it in a sterile OR under a GA s the poor child isnt traumatised
UmmInayah
11-02-2008, 09:04
I know the OP probably has nothing to do with singling out Muslims, but I just want it to be known that this is not how ISLAM dictates how to circumcise children. (The text "Islamic Turkey" is very misleading - ugh, god that frustrates me :banghead:).
I am also applauded that this has happened. That poor child with no pain relief.
Maybe he did have pain relief and hes crying like that for fear of what was going to happen?
secondtimearound2
11-02-2008, 11:53
http://www.viceland.com/int/v14n9/htdocs/circn.php?country=au
If you look at this page it looks like the boy is all for it...he is not held down or anything.
I have no problem with circumcision itself, just with the lack of consent that it is performed under in most cases in our society.
These children pictured seem to be old enough to speak. I can presume that they have given their permission to have their foreskin removed. I have no problem with this - it is theirs to do with as they wish.
Modifying a babies genitals is doing so without their consent and I strongly disagree with this practise. If my son wants his foreskin removed when he is of an age to express his wishes and to be able to fully understand the process then I will support his decision. I don't think its a big deal, its just the lack of consent that bothers me in the whole circumcision debate.
MotherNurture
11-02-2008, 13:51
http://www.viceland.com/int/v14n9/htdocs/circn.php?country=au
If you look at this page it looks like the boy is all for it...he is not held down or anything.
I didn't look at the link, but keep in mind that in Islamic culture when older boys are circumcised it's a celebration/coming of age thing, the boy gets a special fancy outfit, a big party, presents, and money. Still, it's scary and painful but I think that sometimes these kids are conditioned to accept it and even look forward to it...however, I doubt very seriously they know the details of the procedure or the nerves and functions that are going to be taken from them.
Jen
Ah shed, my nephews kept saying "I don't want to" but no one paid any attention to it. I'm embarrassed to say that we all laughed it off. Little girls in various parts of that country are similarly disfigured for the same reason and I bet their protests aren't paid any heed either.
"I don't want to" is not consent and I consider doing it under those circumstances to be as bad as doing it to a baby, or maybe even worse. :no:
Although I do realise that even when they have consent its pretty much the result of brainwashing and conditioning to meet that society's expections. That makes me sad. It doesn't, however, make my blood boil the way that circumcision on babies does.
Ashleigh<3
12-02-2008, 00:26
That's brought tears to my eyes and I thought I was pretty good at controlling my tear ducts.
:(
Anybody else have this huge gut wrenching pain when you see those photos?
You wish you were there so you could grab the boy and whisk him to safety?
Why didn't anybody care to do so?
That's what brings tears to my eyes.
Allowing someone to suffer, watching someone suffer, and celebrating that suffering.
Fuchsia!
12-02-2008, 07:52
i don't want to look at it cause i know it will break my heart and play on my mind for too long. But i agree with everyone. My boys can get circ if they want to when they are older. They can choose for them selves. Its not my decision, its theirs
Milliner
12-02-2008, 10:31
Allowing someone to suffer, watching someone suffer, and celebrating that suffering.
Yep, this is what I have a major problem with. :(
0BleSseD0
12-02-2008, 19:18
Poor boy.. There are a few other boys getting it done.. Interesting that you chose to show the worst one.
I think:
Circumcision without anaestetic is painful. Any child of any age.
That site is a little off.. It has some really distasteful things on there.. ew...
But yeah.. That isnt fair. :no:
P.S. You did mention that someone should have 'saved' him.. There would have been a BIG outcry and (most likely) physical force taken to get the opposer away.
It is a big thing for them remember..
Milliner
12-02-2008, 19:59
Interesting that you chose to show the worst one.
That was the point. The pictures are distressing enough to look at, imagine how the boy feels.
It has some really distasteful things on there
There sure are. I find the whole procedure distasteful, with or without anaesthetic.
P.S. You did mention that someone should have 'saved' him.. There would have been a BIG outcry and (most likely) physical force taken to get the opposer away.
I didn't, in fact I don't think anyone in this thread has said that.
It is sad that parents force their rituals and beliefs on a child that, from those pictures, looks as though he doesn't want to take part in.
0BleSseD0
12-02-2008, 20:35
It is sad that parents force their rituals and beliefs on a child that, from those pictures, looks as though he doesn't want to take part in.
It is extremely sad that they would do that. You would think that the fathers of these boys would know first hand how painful it can be...
There was a PPer who said that by the look on his face she felt 'You wish you were there so you could grab the boy and whisk him to safety?'
Thats what I was talking about.
It is obvious you are VERY passionate about this... I feel like you are attacking my opinion..
I didnt (and wont) attack yours...
MotherNurture
13-02-2008, 05:38
It is extremely sad that they would do that. You would think that the fathers of these boys would know first hand how painful it can be...
The fathers may not remember, it could have been so traumatic they blocked it out, they might have simply succumbed to the cultural/social pressure or they may be misinformed and believe it's actually necessary for health or hygiene reasons. We should probably keep in mind that in cultures that practice FGM, it's the women who are generally insisting and perpetrating it against little girls...mothers, aunts, grandmothers, midwives.
:(
Jen
Two adult males in my family were circ'd as children one at 5 one at 10. neither hold bad memories nor talk of it fondly. just something that happens, much like getting your apendix removed.
i don't want to look at it cause i know it will break my heart and play on my mind for too long. But i agree with everyone. My boys can get circ if they want to when they are older. They can choose for them selves. Its not my decision, its theirs
:no: I couldn't look either. I can't handle those sorts of pictures, they stay in my mind for too long.
MotherNurture
14-02-2008, 08:20
Two adult males in my family were circ'd as children one at 5 one at 10. neither hold bad memories nor talk of it fondly. just something that happens, much like getting your apendix removed.
Except appendixes aren't part of a boy/man's primary sex organ, they don't contribute to pleasure or impact sexual function, and they aren't removed routinely from non-consenting, healthy children with usually-at best-local anesthetic.
Jen
Except appendixes aren't part of a boy/man's primary sex organ, they don't contribute to pleasure or impact sexual function, and they aren't removed routinely from non-consenting, healthy children with usually-at best-local anesthetic.
Jen
i did not compare the body parts function, just the actual removal of it.
PaperTiger
15-03-2008, 23:10
That poor boy, look how much pain he is in. I will never understand why you would willingly put your child through that
http://www.viceland.com/int/v14n9/htdocs/circs.php?country=au
I could not bear to look at it, witnessing a circumscision IRL is bad enough. I have been present at all sorts of surgery, from open heart surgery down to a toe nail removal, only a circ caused me to vomit and almost pass out, primarily because of the pain the baby was being forced to endure. I have never felt so utterly appauled and shocked in my life. Witnessing a beautiful healthy baby screaming in pain to such a sensitive area, from something so unesscesary is an undescribable horror. I cannot imagine what it would do to the psyche of an older child to have it performed without an anaesthetic.
blissfullybonkers
15-03-2008, 23:50
did anyone ever see the story they did on circumcision?? i think it was on aca, i wish i recorded it. my df wants it done if we ever have a son, and i hate the idea!! i think for him its just so they look the same:rolleyes: i dont think he really gets the whole picture ifykwim.
to the op i feel sorry for that boy, i dont get how it can be part of a religious act, [offensive comment removed by moderator].
My family have always been pro circumcision provided it is removed with anesthetic etc. We looked at getting my little boy done, however we were told at the hospital that unless it is for religious reasons it cannot be done.
We wanted circumcision because I have worked with old people. It is both embarrassing for the gentleman, and for the worker, to have to pull back an old wrinkly foreskin to clean a penis. Even though cleaned daily, many men with foreskins still attached have disgusting and filthy areas underneath the foreskin, and many suffer from infections for this reasons. Circumcised men do not seem to have this issue.
We have decided to leave it up to our little man to make an educated decision once he reaches his teens. I am not comfortable with this decision for the mere fact that when an adult has his foreskin removed it is a lot more painful, you remember it for life, and are more highly subject to infection. At least when it is done within the first couple of days they do not remember it.
Also, my friend had to have her baby circumcised. Her little boys penis had not developed properly, and he was weeing out of the side of his penis and was constantly in pain. Circumcision was the only way to help him.
MotherNurture
21-03-2008, 18:02
My family have always been pro circumcision provided it is removed with anesthetic etc. We looked at getting my little boy done, however we were told at the hospital that unless it is for religious reasons it cannot be done.
We wanted circumcision because I have worked with old people. It is both embarrassing for the gentleman, and for the worker, to have to pull back an old wrinkly foreskin to clean a penis. Even though cleaned daily, many men with foreskins still attached have disgusting and filthy areas underneath the foreskin, and many suffer from infections for this reasons. Circumcised men do not seem to have this issue.
We have decided to leave it up to our little man to make an educated decision once he reaches his teens. I am not comfortable with this decision for the mere fact that when an adult has his foreskin removed it is a lot more painful, you remember it for life, and are more highly subject to infection. At least when it is done within the first couple of days they do not remember it.
Also, my friend had to have her baby circumcised. Her little boys penis had not developed properly, and he was weeing out of the side of his penis and was constantly in pain. Circumcision was the only way to help him.
Well, developmental problems and weeing out the side of your penis are obviously not normal, and most boys are normal. Only 1% will ever need circumcision for medical reasons; the rest will be just fine. Circumcision complications are much, much higher...
71% risk of penile adhesions due to circumcision.
10% risk of meatal stenosis due to circumcision.
1% risk of requiring a circumcision revision.
How would we react if someone posted that they were pro-FGM because it's embarrassing to have to clean an elderly woman's folds, nooks, and crannies? What if someone was calling the vulva "filthy and disgusting" or referred to a senior woman's labia as "old and wrinkly"? Most of us would be appalled and would assure others that hygiene is simple and we'd much rather wash than be subjected to unnecessary, non-consensual amputative surgery on our sex organs.
IMO, it's not about "not remembering it" it's about every human being having a right to a whole body and sex as nature intended it will protective, mobile skin and tens of thousands of specialized nerve endings intact.
Jen
twotrunks
21-03-2008, 20:24
Can I just say that site is completely inappropriate, and I am not talking about the circ bit but the other foul language and ideas that are right next to it.
I am anti-circ and think those images may be useful for some poeple in their decision making processes, but I really didn't need to see the page they were on.
StrawberryTheMilkshake
21-03-2008, 20:51
Like someone else said, im each to their own but thats made me feel sick......
At least when it is done within the first couple of days they do not remember it.
I believe that they do remember it, maybe not on a conscious level that they can talk about later, but I do believe it leaves an imprint on them. Considering they have been taking in experiences for such a short time it is something that would form a huge percentage of their experiences of life so far.
the_queen
21-03-2008, 21:01
At least when it is done within the first couple of days they do not remember it.
This argument is flawed. I could smack my newborn hard on the bum, for crying too loud in the middle of the night - he'd never remember it, so by your logic it's ok to do it.
Whispers
21-03-2008, 22:55
:no: That poor boy
Personaly myself I dont see the point in why this is done. If you teach your son to be clean then he should have no problems But that is just my opinion.
SassyMummy
21-03-2008, 22:58
It is both embarrassing for the gentleman, and for the worker, to have to pull back an old wrinkly foreskin to clean a penis. Even though cleaned daily, many men with foreskins still attached have disgusting and filthy areas underneath the foreskin, and many suffer from infections for this reasons.
I don't think my DP really cares...
I find it kind embarrassing to have to lift up my sagging breasts to clean under them as well... considering I'm only 22... but at the same time, I'm glad my mother didn't choose to have them removed to spare me that embarrassment...
declansmum
21-03-2008, 23:54
I found those pictures to be very disturbing. Poor darling:crying:
secondtimearound2
23-03-2008, 10:26
This imagery has been utilised by certain people on parenting forums for a couple of years now.
It exploits the fact that people don't like to think of old nude men, and combines such distasteful imagery to the thought of a foreskin to try to scare people into supporting the practice of removing it.
Then there are trolls who create various accounts on forums and gain large post counts (to add authenticity to the account) and then make statements about how they had their son circumcised - the intention being that momentum be given to try to encourage parents to get it done on the basis that "lots of other people are getting it done" when in fact the "lots of other people getting it done" are all one person pretending to be many.
Yes, there are some sick people out there.
I find this a very interesting theory:confused: considering you yourself have only 9 posts!!
If you look at the pro circ threads do you also think they are 1 person made up to be many?? :rolleyes:
I also find it quite disturbing that one would suggest that a male has no ability or less to experience an orgasm after being circ :no:.
I would like to reiterate that I have not circumcised my son. I also explained that I AM a carer for the elderly. I have experienced first hand both men and women that are physically unable to eat.. let alone clean themselves. The majority of people I work with are females. I personally dont find it an issue to clean uncircumcised penises, or old ladys fannys or sagging breasts. Its a fact of life, many of us will end up in this position, and so be it.
I personally have found circumcised penises easier to clean, and not as embarrassing for the male (imagine being 80+, bed ridden, and unable to clean yourself to have a male have to move back your folds to clean...).
I simply voiced my own personal views on an open forum to discuss that there are two opinions to the circumcision view. If it makes you all feel better, I have not.. and will not be circumcising my son.
Ange&Seth
23-03-2008, 21:12
I find this a very interesting theory:confused: considering you yourself have only 9 posts!!
If you look at the pro circ threads do you also think they are 1 person made up to be many?? :rolleyes:
I also find it quite disturbing that one would suggest that a male has no ability or less to experience an orgasm after being circ :no:.
This is an excellent point :yes:
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