View Full Version : Atheism / religion open discussion
Mister Noodle
19-03-2006, 00:21
Okay, as suggested in the other thread (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=15222), I've created this thread for the general discussion of atheism, religion and the nature of each.
People of all faiths (including none at all) are welcome and invited to post - though I think it'd be wise to keep to question / answer and debate, rather than outright preaching or proselytising, in either direction.
Everyone PLEASE do your best to keep it civil - I'd hate to see this go south.
That said, nobody on either side should be expected to agree with anything they don't believe. There's a *big* difference between agreement, respect and courtesy. You're welcome (and indeed, explicitly invited!) to tell me exactly how and why I'm wrong, but I reserve the right to do the same. Obviously both sides think the other side is incorrect, or there wouldn't be two sides. This does not mean that mutual respect does not exist.
Courtesy at all times, on both sides. Please.
So.
I'm an atheist, and you've doubtless seen at least the general outline of my views on religions in general.
Any questions? Anything you want to put forward for consideration?
What's your take on the issue?
Is this sufficiently general a topic not to exclude anyone/anything?
reAllytee
19-03-2006, 00:50
Ooooh can of worms anyone :p
I hope this goes well as id be interested in it when im not half asleep hehe this will certainly be interesting :D
Saraswati
19-03-2006, 10:15
Do you guys ever sleep?! :D
I don't belong to a religion (raised a Catholic - and still working through the guilt!) but seem to be surrounded by Christians where I live, in my extended family etc. One thing that has been said to me a few times that I just can't get my head around (perhaps someone can enlighten me) is that all i need to do is say the words 'I accept Jesus as my savior' and my soul will be saved, no matter what.
This seems to be a little bit like not stepping on the cracks in the footpath...
My husband and I have recently told his mum that she needs to start accepting that we're not going to be saying those words any time soon - in return she has started praying for our souls. This I find patronising.
Anyway, I hope this isn't coming across as discourteous - I am just a bit miffed about the logic of it all and figured this might be the spot to air my confusion!
MrsMiggins
19-03-2006, 10:25
Hi! Found the thread!
I really just wanted to post to say I've found it & to add it to my subscription list for future reference.
I am fascinated by theological debate. I think it is one of the most interesting conversations to have - provided that no-one intends offence, which in my experience seldom happens in a genuine discussion.
I'm not into changing anyone's mind about religion/faith, I am just whole-heartedly interested in what people have to say about their beliefs.
I would also be interested to hear from Muslims, Jews, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Buddhists, Hindus... I'm sure there are plenty more followers of faiths other than Christianity on bubhub (of course, not that I'm not interested in hearing from Christians too!) :D
Mister Noodle
19-03-2006, 10:59
Okay, here's a bone of contention to get the ball rolling:
There's these poster ads in the city that say "It's not the clothes you wear, it's not the places you go, it's not the music you listen to <etc. etc.>. It's the watch that you wear that tells the most about who you really are".
And, heart-attack-inducing surprise, it's written by a watch company! Imagine that! Is that a coincidence or WHAT?
Similarly, there's this idea going round that whatever else you do, all that *really* matters, the single most crucial thing, sine qua non... is faith. The ability to really see the emperor's new clothes. So long as you believe what you're told, everything else is negotiable.
And, even BIGGER surprise... this idea is put forth by religions! Who would ever have imagined that a contagious/heritable idea would value easy acceptance and tenacious rentention of ideas? (especially when faced with a lack of evidence)
It looks to me as though faith is both a meme's immune system, and its chief weapon against that of the host.
Opinions?
MrsMiggins
19-03-2006, 11:07
Oh, there's no doubt that that kind of thing has gone on in the past & continues to this day. However I think it is probably a bit general to say that religious groups do not encourage questioning of beliefs at all. I think nowadays, most do not encourage blind faith at all.
In fact (and I do realise that Buddhism is a different kettle of fish all together), Buddhism actively encourages the questioning of beliefs as they maintain that you cannot be a true follower if there are doubts in your mind. Blind faith is not at all a part of their way of doing things.
And yes, while I agree that in the less forward thinking areas of many predominant religions, there is definitely an element of blind faith, I think these days that is more to do with the individual follower, than with leaders in a sect.
Mister Noodle
19-03-2006, 11:59
Blind and unquestioning or not, there's still the idea that gratuitous belief (in the lack of evidence, or in the face of contradictory evidence) is an inherently virtuous thing.
Not "faithful people will therefore do X, which is good", just plain old "having faith is good, in and of itself".
Why is it? What makes it so? What is it about being easy-to-convince and subsequently-hard-to-sway that makes someone a good person?
Ana Gram
19-03-2006, 12:16
My husband and I have recently told his mum that she needs to start accepting that we're not going to be saying those words any time soon - in return she has started praying for our souls. This I find patronising.
I always find this particularly insulting, why do people do that??
Saraswati
19-03-2006, 12:57
I don't know, Chellegoth, but it's such a judgemental, irritating notion. My mother used to go off to her prayer group on a thursday night to pray for my soul when i was a rebellious teenager. It only added to my teenage angst!!
Saraswati
19-03-2006, 13:02
What is it about being easy-to-convince and subsequently-hard-to-sway that makes someone a good person?
Bloody good point!!! Can ANYONE answer this?!!
Similarly, there's this idea going round that whatever else you do, all that *really* matters, the single most crucial thing, sine qua non... is faith. The ability to really see the emperor's new clothes. So long as you believe what you're told, everything else is negotiable.
And, even BIGGER surprise... this idea is put forth by religions! Who would ever have imagined that a contagious/heritable idea would value easy acceptance and tenacious rentention of ideas? (especially when faced with a lack of evidence)
It looks to me as though faith is both a meme's immune system, and its chief weapon against that of the host.
Opinions?
I must say your words are equally applicable to all who profess a belief in a god/God or no god.
These words of yours are equally applicable to yourself Mr Noodle since Atheism is equally religious in nature as the highest being of authority is just lowered from an external God to a self god.
You have a faith there is no god/God purely because you cannot prove to your own mind there is one.
You have faith in yourself. A fallible human who can be in error.
Let me quote Hebrews11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
If faith is blind faith then it is wrong faith. One needs to understand what they believe and why they believe it. There is evidence which I hope we can discuss.
Ffrenchknickers
19-03-2006, 13:31
Hi there...I only have a sec but Ill be back later.
The thing is, Mr Noodle, you seem to confident that you know exactly what is going on in the hearts and minds of believers. How could you possibly, know that? You make some extremely general statements about what faith is all about when it is clearly something that you have never experienced. Now, you're an intelligent guy, so you must know that you can't possibly know about something that you have never had personal experience with....
Alot of the stuff (infact most) you have written about religions and people of faith is so way off base its not funny. I don't disagree at all that some of the worlds most stupid things have been done in the name of God and religion, you have to be blind not to see that. The thing is, its not God that is doing that, it is people...we have freewill and can do whatever we want. It's not for me to judge anyone else's faith but I would definitely question the genuiness of anyone's faith who bombs a city or locks people in concentration camps in the name of their religion.
I have heard all the same arguments that have been put forth in the other thread for years and years....I married an atheist (who now by the Grace of God is a passionate Christian.) IT is so amazing how many assumptions are made about Christians....from reading the other thread, if I am classed in with the majority of Christians, I am:
1. Using God/religion as a crutch
Yes, God strengthens me, more than any human being (including myself ever could!) This is not something to be ashamed of at all...I can do more through God than in my own strength. This does not mean I am weak, but I do try to be humble and know that the one who created me knows what is perfect for me:)
2. I have a blind faith
No, I don't....and this is the part that you cant possibly profess to understand when you haven't been there yourself. I have a relationship with God - when I asked Him into my life, He changed me and continues to do so every day. I don't just believe what I am told in church etc...I take everything to God and he confirms it for me if it is correct. It is not about just reading a book or listening to what a preacher tells you, it is letting God into your heart and letting Him work with it. There is a big difference between picking up the Bible and just deciding to believe it (which I did for many years and never really "got it") and actually having that personal relationship with the one who made us.
3. I hide behind my faith but don't act it out...
I try to live out the teachings of the bible the best I can. A common misunderstanding is that Christians should be perfect....I know that this is put across by some Christians which really annoys me. Part of being a Christian is accepting your fallibility and your "non-perfectness" (LOL you know what I mean:)) It says in the bible that we should be humble and that there is "Not one righteous....not one" That is why we are saved by faith and not by works "so that no man shall boast..." Blessed are the poor in spirit and anyone who forgets that and proclaims to be better than anyone else because they are a Christian has become no better than a Pharisee...Being a Christian is not about following a set of rules, sure we have the ten commandments, but they are all fulfilled if everything is done out of love. Now, if the essence of Christianity is trying to do everything we possibly can in the same of love, then how can that be bad?
We are actually warned about setting worldly rules...
Col 2:20-23
Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
I personally see that in alot of churches, too many rules and "traditions of man" have been set, only leading away from God and the Bibles teachings....I don't believe that it is supposed to be about that at all. Yes, I am judging and it is my opinion but alot of the time I just think "no wonder Christianity gets a bad name...." Christians are not supposed to be perfect and would love it if people stopped pretending to be....then maybe we wouldn't be expected to be.
4. I don't question anything and infact are not allowed to do so
Again, a complete untruth. I cant tell you the amount of times I have questioned God, the church, my pastor, whatever. That is actively encouraged....if we don't understand something we are not just supposed to accept it like mindless robots. If you want to know about asking questions, talk to my husband...he had all the same arguments as you guys just a little over a year ago...
You know what, there is no denying that wars have been fought in the name of religion etc etc....don't blame the whole of the Christian population and don't blame God. I don't blame every atheist for the actions of one, I don't think that all cricketers are lying cheats because of Shane Warne, I don't believe all Muslims are bad because of September 11. There seems to be so much more hatred from atheists towards Christians than vice versa...I think you'll find that the majority of posts in the Christian thread relate to ourselves and what we can do to improve on what we are doing, not bagging out those of a different faith. Infact, if it became like that I would close it or report particular posts (which, I actually have done in the past.)
5. I am only a Christian because my parents told me to be or forced me into it
Nope, my father is an atheist and my mum believes that God created the world and that is about it.
6. I try to force others into faith
Definitely not. This is not only out of respect for the person, but it goes against having a personal relationship with God. No one could possibly be forced into having a relationship with God until they make a per decision and ASK GOD ABOUT IT! We can share what we know but we cannot force anyone into believing so it would be wrong to try. Only God can confirm His own existence to a new believer. Sure, we can teach our children the basic truths and stories from the Bible but it is only when they are old enough to understand, that they will decide to become Christians (as my 6 year old has.)
7. I think atheists and people without faith are bad or evil
No I don't...my father is an atheist ,so are my in-laws and half of my friends, so is my sister, her fiancé, my boss..... I wouldn't judge anyone for being without faith, as I said, it is to something you can understand unless you have it..therefore, is it fair to judge?
8. If I found out God isn't real I have a 50% chance of turning into a serial rapist or murderer....
LOL, I am not sure if this one needs a response, although, I would like to know how many people you interviewed to come up with your 50%.....I cant imagine anyone saying that, Christians or not. I don't think it is the desire of most people's hearts to inflict pain on others.
You can intellectualise the Christian faith (and others) all you like but you can't explain it or understand it until you'e been there. I went to a Christian school and went to chapel services there all the time but I still didn't get it and no one told me that there was more to it than just sitting there trying to believe.
Anyway, it has turned into more than a sec! That's my piece...
Ffrenchknickers
19-03-2006, 13:35
What is it about being easy-to-convince and subsequently-hard-to-sway that makes someone a good person?
Again, people are not Chrisitians for either of these reasons:) Well, at least not the ones I know. I once again, look to my husband.....he was exactly like you Mr Noodle. I can assure you, not easy to convince at all....hacing faith is not about being convinced
Ffrenchknickers
19-03-2006, 13:36
These words of yours are equally applicable to yourself Mr Noodle since Atheism is equally religious in nature as the highest being of authority is just lowered from an external God to a self god.
Hi Nathan *waves* Very well said:)
the_queen
19-03-2006, 13:41
I agree with Katie - it's unfair to tar all Christians with the same brush. At times, I am embarrassed to "out myself" as one, because of the way our secular society views Christians. People scoff at me - "you can't be a Christian because you used to xyz (insert terribly-sinful-things-I-used-to-do-in-my-youth here)"
Faith, by definition, means belief without concrete proof. However, I feel like I do have proof that God exists in my life. I can't use this proof to convince anyone else of His existence, but it convinces me.
What an interesting and thought-provoking thread, Mr Noodle!! I wish I was coherent and expressive enough to explain myself better.....:o
is that all i need to do is say the words 'I accept Jesus as my savior' and my soul will be saved, no matter what.
This seems to be a little bit like not stepping on the cracks in the footpath...
Anyway, I hope this isn't coming across as discourteous - I am just a bit miffed about the logic of it all and figured this might be the spot to air my confusion!
So you should be miffed. They are only telling half the story. They are speaking concerning grace. It's also not an incantation
Ask them this question "What is the opposite of Law."
If they respond Grace tell them to go read their bible properly.
It is also completely illogical. The opposite of law is lawlessness. Which many churches teach under the guise of "Grace". Grace operates on a completely different level.
It would be good if you read the bible for yourself without any other opinions so you can see what it says for yourself.
Matthew 7:21-23
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Just saying the words is nothing. As the old addage goes "Action speaks louder than words."
Matthew 12:50
"For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."
Profession of faith is nothing without the putting it to the test. If the faith is true then prove it, if the faith is true then live it.:thumbsup:
People are so passionate about their beliefs (Obviously you don't feel something if you don't believe in it). So returning to a previous comment, do you think it's possible that there's more than one truth?
Is it possible we create our own truth, and that's why we believe so strongly in it?
If, for example, there is a person standing in a room - I look at him, and you look at him. Isn't it likely that we will see him and interpret him differently? Then isn't it also likely that in something as complex as religion (whichever one you choose) can be interpreted differently depending on each persons perspective?
Let's take this one step further and think about each persons perspective of God. I doubt if any two people on the planet think of God in the same way. Perhaps until we have heard every persons interpretation of God, it would be wise to remain open to the possibility that anything is possible?
What about faith - can you have faith without following a religion?
Ffrenchknickers
19-03-2006, 14:08
Yup, you can have faith in whatever you want to :)
The Christian faith, however, relies on the Bible and the Holy Spirit to interpret it for us. As a Christian, I believe the Bible and it tell me that "There is no way to the Father but through me....(Jesus.)
Is it possible we create our own truth, and that's why we believe so strongly in it? I am sure it is possible:) For me, though, God is that truth. As far as interpreting things differently, of course, we are human. That is why it says in the Bible
1Corinthians 2:12-14
"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
People try to interpret the Bible and lean on their own understanding all the time....I believe this is where we go wrong. The role of the Holy Spirit inside us is to guide us through the scriptures and make sense of them for us.
Note, I am not saying you're wrong, just replying form my Christian point of view:)
Ana Gram
19-03-2006, 14:13
I can see why people get annoyed with what they see as generalizations about being a part of a religion and about their particular religion, I can.
But as much as your (not directed at anyone, but a generalization, sorry) faith is a personal relationship with your god, the way some of us athiests view religions and those with faith is because of our personal experience directly with religion and its followers.
Ffrenchknickers
19-03-2006, 14:13
What about faith - can you have faith without following a religion?
Yes, I believe you can. For me, faith is found in my relationship with God and through reading the Bible, not through church or preaching (these things both enhance my faith and I find them extremely important.) I know thats really not what you are getting at, but all I can do is answer from my Christian perspective:)
Also, look at the aborigines, they had amazing dreamtime stories very similar to that of creation...they had faith in them and I believe that God had written the commandments on their hearts. Alot of them never had the chance to hear the gospel and I dont believe that they are condemned to hell becasue of that. Once we hear the gospel, I believe we have a choice either to accept or reject it.:)
Ffrenchknickers
19-03-2006, 14:18
But as much as your (not directed at anyone, but a generalization, sorry) faith is a personal relationship with your god, the way some of us athiests view religions and those with faith is because of our personal experience directly with religion and its followers.
I totally, totally understand that, I really do. Believe me, the things some people do in the name of God or religion annoys me just as much as it does you:( I dont want people to think that I act a certain way just because someone else has called themself a Christian.
tanni_83
19-03-2006, 16:15
what i dont understand is, why should we live 'god', if apparently we came from heaven to start with and with each life we live out we choose our 'vessel' (the human body) each time from looking down from above?? :confused:
Does that make sense? lol
Ffrenchknickers
19-03-2006, 16:17
what i dont understand is, why should we live 'god', if apparently we came from heaven to start with and with each life we live out we choose our 'vessel' (the human body) each time from looking down from above??
It depends if you believe that:) I believe that God creates us at conception and He chooses our body:) - which obviously has alot to do with who our parents are....He created genetics though:p He gives us freewill.
LOL that doesnt make as mch sense as I would like it to:rolleyes: Basically I am saying that I dont believe that we exist before we are conceived and I dont believe that we choose our earthly bodies and parents
Arghhh, I know what I am trying to say but it's not coming out right......blaming it on baby brain....someone, .....help?
Ana Gram
19-03-2006, 16:21
He chooses our body:)
Well if I die and discover there was a god, we shall be having a talk about that one!!!:D
Ffrenchknickers
19-03-2006, 16:23
LOL..very good:p
tanni_83
19-03-2006, 16:37
Well if I die and discover there was a god, we shall be having a talk about that one!!!:D
hahaha me too!! im not very happy with the one i got. although, my husband would probably have a go at me if he seen this post hehe :smiliedance:
Perhaps God gives us the option to choose our body, and depending on the lessons we need to learn we choose one that's appropriate?
Ana Gram
19-03-2006, 17:01
Sorry to make another joke but I would have liked to have picked a much better body. Some life lesson should only be learned in a glamorous body looking totoal stylish!
Ffrenchknickers
19-03-2006, 17:07
Perhaps God gives us the option to choose our body, and depending on the lessons we need to learn we choose one that's appropriate?
Thats interesting. So you believe in a kind of reincarnation? Do you mean like we existed before on earth and then go back to heaven to await a new body or that we just existed in Heaven as spirits and we all have different purposes to serve of journeys to take?
See the thing to me is...(and I totally mean no offence by this) there are so many maybe's and what if's and questions. I personally think that the Bible answers them all perfectly:p
LOL, and Chelle, I am sure you are totally stylish:D
Well I wasn't really going to get in to what I believe, but in the interests of sharing....
I believe our souls have a purpose, and each 'lifetime' is a small part of the transition from little knowledge through to much knowledge.
I believe we choose our path (incl. our parents, race, socioeconomic group, friends, and yes - even our body etc) and each one of these choices assists us in completing our soul purpose. We can choose to take the easy road, but that usually doesn't teach us much. How can we learn humility and grace unless we experience a situation that requires them? (Doesn't it seem that in your life, the hardest choices are always the ones you learn the most from?).
Chellegoth - If we all looked like supermodels that would just be the easy road. Perhaps supermodels aren't ready to learn those difficult lessons that you have learned from your body. But we're in a physical form for a reason, so they will one day.
(I don't believe we need to be incarnate to learn either. There is no reason why we can't learn just as much whilst in the spiritual world.)
So I hope that answers your question Ffrenchie. For me the spiritual world is not Heaven, as such, but is everywhere, limitless. I also have strong ideas about God too, but this post will turn into an essay if I keep going.
So a question for the followers of the Bible...... is it possible that what you believe is totally right because you chose it to give you guidance in your journey, and that what I believe is totally right because it gives me guidance in my journey. Also that what the athiests believe is totally right, because they chose it for their journey?
Perhaps God gives us the option to choose our body, and depending on the lessons we need to learn we choose one that's appropriate?
This sounds very much like Shirley McLaine who said in her book I think called "out on a lImb" that one time she was beaten and mugged in New York and that she realised that as it was happening she had planned it to happen that way prior to coming to earth because she needed to learn lesons from it.
It seems to me that a bad event occurred to Shirley and she found a way of making herself feel better about it. Even though it might work for a while it is untrue and thus eventually the real feelings will come to the surface when placed under the right presures.
Also a similar phenomenon that occurs when one is taken hostage. The hostage can easily sympathise with the aggressor and side with them. Or even a violent domestic situation where one party will say "I deserve it."
It is good to be thankful for what we have because in the end this life is transitory. By explaining away who or what we are is to ignore the fact not one person is perfect. We are here today gone tomorrow like a flower that fades away.
Our imperfection opens the door for us to see the perfection of God:detective:
Ffrenchknickers
19-03-2006, 18:02
Thanks Wattle, I have been curious for awhile as to what you believe:)
As to your last question...it would be nice if that was the case and if I could possibly get that from the Bible then I would like to believe it. I just can't though. Basically, if I dont believe that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ then I am totally denying what the Bible teaches if that makes sense.
WHo knows though....maybe you are right:)
Ffrenchknickers
19-03-2006, 18:04
LOL, Nathan you had me confused for a minute....sign in accidently as your wife did ya? I thought it sounded more like you and not Erin LOL.
So Ffrenchie if that's what you believe and it works for you, does it matter what anyone else believes?
And if Joe Bloggs believes something totally different, and it works for him, should it matter to him what you believe?
Why is it important that everyone has the same truth?
Saraswati
19-03-2006, 18:14
[QUOTE=Nathan]
For me this sounds like a "shucks I can't cope with this, here's a belief system makes me feel better about myself."
Also a similar phenomenon that occurs when one is taken hostage. The hostage can easily sympathise with the aggressor and side with them. Or even a violent domestic situation where one party will say "I deserve it."
QUOTE]
I think what Shirley McClain is getting at isn't that she 'deserved' to be mugged. Rather, if we believe that we choose our life lessons before we are born, then on a soul level, she and the mugger chose to interact in this way because each had a lesson to learn through this meeting. For example, a woman who is married to a violent husband, may need to learn the lessons of developing self worth and confidence to walk away from this situation. I always look at seriously handicapped people, or paralysed people and think about what amazing, highly evolved souls they must be to be capable of learning such tough lessons.
Another example, a person who experiences the loss of loved ones during his/her life may learn the lessons of compassion. So it's not like they 'deserved' it in a self-effacing way, but that they chose to learn these particular lessons in this lifetime. So over many lifetimes, we learn many different lessons - or perhaps we may need to learn the same lessons over and over until we get it!
I personally find that the weakest position is the position that attacks anothers position and I do not want to attack anyone. Rather I wish to prove my faith is based on fact as I question everything and I am very driven to answers to those questions. (I guess why I get myself in trouble with religious authorities. I believe that there is nothing that is unknowable given enough time - mortality etc is a problem. That the Spirit will lead us into all truth.)
One should not fear finding truth even if it shows that they believe error. Why? Because truth has saved you from error. It is a friend and not a foe.
It seems to me that a bad event occurred to Shirley and she found a way of making herself feel better about it. Even though it might work for a while it is untrue and thus eventually the real feelings will come to the surface when placed under the right presures.
If this was her truth, how can it be untrue? Isn't it only untrue by your beliefs?
By explaining away who or what we are is to ignore the fact not one person is perfect.
Hmmm, do you look at your children and think they aren't perfect?
I hope those comments didn't sound too negative, I'm just weighing them up in my head.
This discussion certainly brings up some interesting ideas.
Nathan - do you think it's possible that there can be more than one truth? (Maybe like there are many beautiful colours in the rainbow but together they make up the whole thing)
Mister Noodle
19-03-2006, 18:38
Hi there...I only have a sec but Ill be back later.
Alot of the stuff (infact most) you have written about religions and people of faith is so way off base its not funny. I don't disagree at all that some of the worlds most stupid things have been done in the name of God and religion, you have to be blind not to see that. The thing is, its not God that is doing that, it is people...we have freewill and can do whatever we want. It's not for me to judge anyone else's faith but I would definitely question the genuiness of anyone's faith who bombs a city or locks people in concentration camps in the name of their religion.
Let me stop you right there.
I don't claim it's your god that's doing that - by definition, as I don't believe there is a god in the first place.
My claim, therefore, is that it's all just human beings acting like human beings. And the things they're taught give them the justification they seek.
Look at it this way: there's hundreds of religions on the planet. Apart for a tiny majority, they all claim to be the One True Faith, and that all other religions are just plain wrong.
At the most, only one of these can be true. Again, by definition.
Therefore, all but (at most) one of the world's religions religions have spread and flourished over the centuries, despite not actually being true. Therefore, the truth of a religion has very little to do with how many followers it attracts, or how long it lasts. (and if you don't agree, christianity is in trouble...)
Memetics provides a very simple mechanism to explain what we see. People tend up beleiving the things they want to be true.
It doesn't matter what the starting point is. Whether the bible had indeed been hand-dictared by god himself back in the day, or if it had been the random mutterings of a schizophrenic - by now, it would have evolved into something very like what it is now, taking the most-popular chinese whisper at every step.
It works for everything but the One True Religion - why wouldn't it happen to the OTR itself?
from reading the other thread, if I am classed in with the majority of Christians, I am:
Actually, no. What I said was that all these goodies were on the buffet, for anyone that wanted them. I did not say that everyone took all of them, or that any particular person took any particular one.
1. Using God/religion as a crutch
Yes, God strengthens me, more than any human being (including myself ever could!) This is not something to be ashamed of at all...I can do more through God than in my own strength. This does not mean I am weak, but I do try to be humble and know that the one who created me knows what is perfect for me:)
However strong you may or may not be without it, the point is that it's an attractive reward for believing. Just like laughing is a good reward for reading a joke. Given the choice of a universe with this strength and one without, the majority will go for the former - and human minds (especially in aggregate) tend to end up believing the things they want to be true.
2. I have a blind faith
No, I don't....and this is the part that you cant possibly profess to understand when you haven't been there yourself. I have a relationship with God - when I asked Him into my life, He changed me and continues to do so every day. I don't just believe what I am told in church etc...I take everything to God and he confirms it for me if it is correct. It is not about just reading a book or listening to what a preacher tells you, it is letting God into your heart and letting Him work with it. There is a big difference between picking up the Bible and just deciding to believe it (which I did for many years and never really "got it") and actually having that personal relationship with the one who made us.
Again with the taking it personally. And again, nowhere did I claim this. To deal with the point directly: I'd hold that you are not provided with any emotional resources that you didn't already have, and I'm wondering how you'd demonstrate otherwise. And if you can't, I'd call it an unfalsifiable claim.
Here's a test. I have a magic rock that, when I polish it on my sleeve, filles me with strength, confidence and the power to persevere. How would you go about showing this to be untrue?
3. I hide behind my faith but don't act it out...
I try to live out the teachings of the bible the best I can. A common misunderstanding is that Christians should be perfect....I know that this is put across by some Christians which really annoys me. Part of being a Christian is accepting your fallibility and your "non-perfectness" (LOL you know what I mean:)) It says in the bible that we should be humble and that there is "Not one righteous....not one" That is why we are saved by faith and not by works "so that no man shall boast..." Blessed are the poor in spirit and anyone who forgets that and proclaims to be better than anyone else because they are a Christian has become no better than a Pharisee...Being a Christian is not about following a set of rules, sure we have the ten commandments, but they are all fulfilled if everything is done out of love. Now, if the essence of Christianity is trying to do everything we possibly can in the same of love, then how can that be bad?
Where in the name of all that is purple did I claim that? I find virtually no admirable qualities in christianity, so I'm hardly going to call you on not living up to it.
We are actually warned about setting worldly rules...
Col 2:20-23
Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
I personally see that in alot of churches, too many rules and "traditions of man" have been set, only leading away from God and the Bibles teachings....I don't believe that it is supposed to be about that at all. Yes, I am judging and it is my opinion but alot of the time I just think "no wonder Christianity gets a bad name...." Christians are not supposed to be perfect and would love it if people stopped pretending to be....then maybe we wouldn't be expected to be.
Ahem. While I agree throughly that the church should keep its hands off the state, there's enough worldly laws in the bible to choke a horse.
A trivial (and funny) example is here (http://www.dogchurch.org/restroom/drlaura.html), but check http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com for more laws than you can shake a stick at. So while I admire your position, it's really not well supported by the bible itself.
4. I don't question anything and infact are not allowed to do so
Again, a complete untruth. I cant tell you the amount of times I have questioned God, the church, my pastor, whatever. That is actively encouraged....if we don't understand something we are not just supposed to accept it like mindless robots. If you want to know about asking questions, talk to my husband...he had all the same arguments as you guys just a little over a year ago...
Well, I'm glad to see you question, but as to whether questioning is encouraged - I invite you to talk to any of my dozens of ex-christian friends (over at iidb), and see just how well their church and their peers ever tolerated critical thinking.
You know what, there is no denying that wars have been fought in the name of religion etc etc....don't blame the whole of the Christian population and don't blame God. I don't blame every atheist for the actions of one, I don't think that all cricketers are lying cheats because of Shane Warne, I don't believe all Muslims are bad because of September 11. There seems to be so much more hatred from atheists towards Christians than vice versa...I think you'll find that the majority of posts in the Christian thread relate to ourselves and what we can do to improve on what we are doing, not bagging out those of a different faith. Infact, if it became like that I would close it or report particular posts (which, I actually have done in the past.)
I blame neither god (whom as I've said, I don't believe in, nor christians in general for the atrocities that have been commited in the name of God. I blame christianity. Get your head around that distinction, and you'll be a lot closer to where I'm coming from.
Continued next post...
Mister Noodle
19-03-2006, 18:39
5. I am only a Christian because my parents told me to be or forced me into it
Nope, my father is an atheist and my mum believes that God created the world and that is about it.
Again - where did I claim that? I said the great majority follw their parents' lead, but I think I've pointed out all over the place that memes are contagious, not just inherited.
6. I try to force others into faith
Definitely not. This is not only out of respect for the person, but it goes against having a personal relationship with God. No one could possibly be forced into having a relationship with God until they make a per decision and ASK GOD ABOUT IT! We can share what we know but we cannot force anyone into believing so it would be wrong to try. Only God can confirm His own existence to a new believer. Sure, we can teach our children the basic truths and stories from the Bible but it is only when they are old enough to understand, that they will decide to become Christians (as my 6 year old has.)
Well now.
First, there have been enough crusades, pogroms and sword-point conversions throughout history to populate a large country.
Second, I haven't claimed that you've done so, however:
Third - by teaching your child the stories and 'basic truths' from day one, before their critical thinking skills have developed, it could easily be argued that you're giving them very little actual choice.
7. I think atheists and people without faith are bad or evil
No I don't...my father is an atheist ,so are my in-laws and half of my friends, so is my sister, her fiancé, my boss..... I wouldn't judge anyone for being without faith, as I said, it is to something you can understand unless you have it..therefore, is it fair to judge?
If you don't, then good for you - and you're probably in the majority. However, I'd invite you to introduce yourself as an atheist in many places, and see just how much hatred and vitriol ends up coming your way. About the mildest example I can come up with: I was once banned from a forum when it became known that I was an atheist, because "this is a family-friendly place, and we won't have your filth here".
8. If I found out God isn't real I have a 50% chance of turning into a serial rapist or murderer....
LOL, I am not sure if this one needs a response, although, I would like to know how many people you interviewed to come up with your 50%.....I cant imagine anyone saying that, Christians or not. I don't think it is the desire of most people's hearts to inflict pain on others.
I don't know if it would be able to misread what I actually wrote any worse than that...
Let me spell it out.
Many, many christians have informed me that I was such a creature. By no means all of them - just a small but significan minority.
Of those people, when asked what they would do, have told me (triumphantly) that they would indeed run amok. How much of this is the presumption that nobody would do otherwise, I don't know - but that's what they've ended up saying. It's astounding to me, too - but I can only tell you what they told me.
I'm going to have a serious job keeping up with this thread...
Mister Noodle
19-03-2006, 18:53
What is it about being easy-to-convince and subsequently-hard-to-sway that makes someone a good person?
Again, people are not Chrisitians for either of these reasons Well, at least not the ones I know. I once again, look to my husband.....he was exactly like you Mr Noodle. I can assure you, not easy to convince at all....hacing faith is not about being convinced
Non sequitur. My question was: Wherein lies the inherent moral virtue of gratuitous belief?
I must say your words are equally applicable to all who profess a belief in a god/God or no god.
These words of yours are equally applicable to yourself Mr Noodle since Atheism is equally religious in nature as the highest being of authority is just lowered from an external God to a self god.
"self god"?
WTF? I don't worship, period. I most especially don't worship myself. This has got to be the single most common misconception regarding atheists - we don't fill that gap up with *anyone*. We just don't see it as a gap.
And I hold that it takes just as much faith to not believe in god as it takes to not believe in Santa, the Tooth Fairy, Refrigerator Light Man, or to believe that we're not actually in the Matrix.
If we needed faith to fail to believe in every single implausible and unfalsifiable claim that could possibly be made, we'd all need an *infinite* amount of the stuff, conciously applied and upheld for every possible idea.
Ffrenchknickers
19-03-2006, 19:07
LOL...I cant stay. In regards to me taking it personally, I'm not...you misunderstand me - it is exactly as I stated which was something like,"If I am like the majority of Christians then I......." I have not taken it personally - I am not offended, frustrated a little bit maybe, but not ofended. Please read the beginning of my post again:) I can only speak from my own experience. I wanted to make it clear that I wasnt speaking for all Christians. I was also not referring to just the things that you had posted, I was referring to the whole thread (and therefore all the posters) all of whom had made massive generalisations about what Christians are like.
You seem very very angry at Christians as you keep bringing up examples of how you have been wronged by them. As I said before, dont lump us all in the same basket.
I would love to go through your post right now but I'll have to go....I will be back tomorrow when Toby is at school:)
Edited to add....one more quick question. Mr N, (and sorry if I missed this in the other thread) do you profess to know for sure that there is no God? If so, how do you know this? Does that position require just as much , if not more faith than that of a Christian? Have you ever actually asked God if He is real?
Ffrenchknickers
19-03-2006, 19:18
Oh, and before I go....Wattle:) You asked whether it matters to me what others believe?
As to who my friends are, what I think of people on a personal level, who I like and dont like, not at all! A person's beliefs really has no bearing on what I think of them.
Spiritually though, if it didnt matter to me in reagrds to ones salvation/afterlife, then, if you know the Bible, it would make me a very uncaring person. If your belief that there was only one way to be saved, then how could you not care about what other people believe? I thought about the right way to say this for awhile before I posted so I hope it has come across OK:)
As to whether I judge people for not believing or think they are any less than me, absolutely NOT.
Ana Gram
19-03-2006, 19:33
Have you ever actually asked God if He is real?
Ok, back up the truck for a minute.... What???? To ask something if it was real when you didn't believe it was real in the first place? I can't even put my head around that notion.:confused:
Mr Noodle and Frenchie
They are the longest threads I have EVER seen. I am so impressed that you both could come up with such logical arguments with children around.
I have nothing to say on the debate, not because I have nothing to say, but all these threads turn bad...:kiss:
Well this thread sure has people thinking. That's great! (Perhaps it was God's will....hehe, sorry, only kidding atheists. That's not for me to say.)
Yes I agree Maghan - extremely impressive posts, and well thought out. I do like the fact that Mr Noodle & Ffrenchie have conviction about their beliefs.
No, I don't agree Maghan - just because previous threads re religion have turned sour doesn't mean this one will.
Can we all agree that this is interesting, and we collectively decide NOT to take anybody else's viewpoint so personally that it affects the flavour of the thread?
No, I don't agree Maghan - just because previous threads re religion have turned sour doesn't mean this one will.
Okay, I'll just remain reserved. But I am enjoying the reads.
Thinking about your comment Ffrenchie.... yes, you put it well.
Because salvation/afterlife is something that is an important part of your beliefs, would it be correct to say that it is something you want for other people too?
What if their beliefs are different though, and your 'vision' of salvation does not hold any value to them (eg they are an athiest, or perhaps believe in reincarnation?). Is it still considerate to wish your truth for someone, when it's not their truth? What makes your truth better for them than their own?
...... it is difficult to put these points across without sounding a bit harsh. :rolleyes:
If this was her truth, how can it be untrue? Isn't it only untrue by your beliefs? ....
Nathan - do you think it's possible that there can be more than one truth? (Maybe like there are many beautiful colours in the rainbow but together they make up the whole thing)
Firstly Shirley McLaine made mention of a specific word in her story "scripted", she said she scripted the event for her life.
I most certainly say I did not script the events that have transpired in my life, if I did then you can certify me mentally insane. (I'm not talking about my wife or children.) I do not wish to go into those details the events were horrible.
Secondly I do not believe there is more than one truth.
An example is recently in the Supreme Court in the US held a demostration trial of a woman and man involved in an assult case.
The courts final verdict was that in the case of the woman she was in the right and in the case of the man he too was in the right.
What sort of chaotic society would it be if both perpertators of crime and victims were both in the right, that both their testimonies were true. The whole process of Law supposed to be about peeling away the lies, fabrications and embelishments to uncover one singular truth.
I think it says much regarding the psyche of the US these days.
Using the colour analogy is a tricky one.
Firstly darkness is not an opposite of light. Light is, darkness is not for darkness is the absence of light. Darkness can create nothing of itself only out of that which comes from God.
Light coming from God comes to us and is seen as light but this is where deception can creep in.
God aka Light can be broken down into 7 visual divisions namely colours being the seven spirits of God.
Revelation 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
The number 7 denotes completeness.
But here is the trick. How do you understand the nature of God / light and thus take those 7 colours and prove you understand God /Light again by reforming light.
Surprisingly you do not need to reform it by utilising all 7 colours reformed back through a prism. Rather you only need 3 primary colours to reconstitute light.
This is why scripture says in 2 Corinthians 11:14-15
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.:devil6:
3 colours can be taken 4 left out and it appears as light but it is not the light that is God.
John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
That is why God has given us His Word which is promised to be uncorrupted and preserved. I will provide proofs if requested.
We cannot work Him out on our own or in our own wisdom. He has to directly reveal Himself to us and it has to be validated, which it has been and is being and will be.
Just examine it's prophesies and the history of the world. Most of them have been fulfilled. Not many are left to be fulfilled.
Hmmm, do you look at your children and think they aren't perfect?
They are wonderful and often remind me of how imperfect they are.;)
PS and often remind me how imperfect I am when they push my limitations.
Please comment away Maghan..... you might just turn out to be right, or have some really interesting point of view.:thumbsup:
Okay, truth is I am a bit of everything. I a little bit Shirley McLaine, a little Ffrenchie, a little Nathan and a little Mr Noodle. Different experiences have made me take different stances at different times in my life. I'm nice to people because I also believe in karma... I pray at different times because I still consider myself catholic even though I never go to church and normally can't stand "those places". I'm just a "tart" when it comes to religion... I suppose.
Mr Noodle, I know I didn't answer your questions, but the kids are still awake!
Interesting points Nathan, I see we think very differently. It's interesting that what works for you is totally different to what works for me, however we both feel a strong connection with God and the world.
That's pretty cool Maghan. I like the idea of karma too, it certainly plays a part in my life.
Variety is the spice of life :D
Me like very much that people are sharing and questioning each others points of view without taking it personally or belittling :thumbsup:
Ffrenchknickers
19-03-2006, 20:47
Thinking about your comment Ffrenchie.... yes, you put it well.
Because salvation/afterlife is something that is an important part of your beliefs, would it be correct to say that it is something you want for other people too?
What if their beliefs are different though, and your 'vision' of salvation does not hold any value to them (eg they are an athiest, or perhaps believe in reincarnation?). Is it still considerate to wish your truth for someone, when it's not their truth? What makes your truth better for them than their own?
...... it is difficult to put these points across without sounding a bit harsh.
I dont think you sound harsh....or do you mean me?:o:ecomcity: LOL
Anyway....
Yup, I definately desire the same for other people too, how could I not? I dont believe on pushing my beliefs on others though. I will share my beliefs and offer support but if somone doesnt want to believe what I do, what can I do? Yes, I would pray for them but never tell them "Oh, I'll pray for your soul or anything like that....." I wouldnt actually say anything. On the odd occasion Ihave asked "would you like me to pray for you..." thats about it.
I know that some people get offended by the idea of Christians praying for them and I really dont want this to start an arguement or get anyone upset. I have never once said "I'll pray for you" to someone who I know wouldnt appreciate it. I do pray for people who I know wouldnt appreciate it (just being honest.) It doenst mean I treat them any differently etc etc. The thing is, if my vision of afterlife/salvation etc and my prayers hold no value to that person, then it really shouldnt matter if I pray to a God who doenst exist in my own private time, should it? I personally think me quietly keeping somone in my prayers is a better way to go than forcefully preaching to them or telling them they're hellbound:rolleyes:
I really really hope this thread says on track.....it has so far and its great:thumbsup:
Ffrenchknickers
19-03-2006, 20:48
Ok, back up the truck for a minute.... What???? To ask something if it was real when you didn't believe it was real in the first place? I can't even put my head around that notion.
Ok, truck backed up:p Just putting it out there Chelle...ya know, on the off chance:)
Tea Lady
19-03-2006, 21:21
A couple of thoughts from me....
One thing that has been said to me a few times that I just can't get my head around (perhaps someone can enlighten me) is that all i need to do is say the words 'I accept Jesus as my savior' and my soul will be saved, no matter what.
This seems to be a little bit like not stepping on the cracks in the footpath...
This sounds pretty bizarre to me too - if you can just say it and not mean it (which it sounds like they're implying) then God must be awfully gullible. Personally I believe that if you really DID accept Jesus as your saviour then you would be saved (I can explain what I mean by that if you want) but I don't think just saying it would do anything.
Similarly, there's this idea going round that whatever else you do, all that *really* matters, the single most crucial thing, sine qua non... is faith. The ability to really see the emperor's new clothes. So long as you believe what you're told, everything else is negotiable.
Are you saying that faith is the same as believing what you're told? I'm just trying to understand what you meant. What do you mean by "everything else is negotiable"? :confused:
What is it about being easy-to-convince and subsequently-hard-to-sway that makes someone a good person?
Nothing at all. IMO those qualities in and of themselves may well make them gullible and irritating. On the other hand there might be good reasons why someone is easily convinced of something (I think I was easily convinced that 2+2=4) and hard to sway from it (I still think it's 4).
Let's take this one step further and think about each persons perspective of God. I doubt if any two people on the planet think of God in the same way. Perhaps until we have heard every persons interpretation of God, it would be wise to remain open to the possibility that anything is possible?
I agree that people have really different perceptions of God, and I certainly don't think my perception is right and everyone elses is wrong. The only person I think who could really tell us what God is like is God himself, and to me there is good evidence that he has done that through the Bible. So I would think that if the Bible says something about God then IT is right (not me) and if it doesn't say anything about some aspect of God then I should definitely keep an open mind. I hope that makes sense.
People tend up beleiving the things they want to be true.
I believe plenty of things that I wish weren't true.
It works for everything but the One True Religion - why wouldn't it happen to the OTR itself?
On what do you base the idea that the "chinese whispers / memetics" theory works for everything but the OTR?
Ahem. While I agree throughly that the church should keep its hands off the state, there's enough worldly laws in the bible to choke a horse.....So while I admire your position, it's really not well supported by the bible itself.
I imagine this will come up again, but I think this really depends on how you understand the theology of the Bible I won't go into what I think now (I'm not saying other christians will agree with me either) but I will later if you're interested). Basically I think that the Bible teaches that the laws in the old testament don't apply to christians, so if it's those rules you're referring to then I don't think your point is valid.
I blame neither god (whom as I've said, I don't believe in, nor christians in general for the atrocities that have been commited in the name of God. I blame christianity.
Personally I think you'd do better to blame the individuals or groups who committed the atrocities. Personally I don't think christianity as found in the Bible encourages such terrible things but I would be interested to know why / if you do.
However, I'd invite you to introduce yourself as an atheist in many places, and see just how much hatred and vitriol ends up coming your way.
Believe it or not us christians get a pretty negative response most of the time too :rolleyes:
I was going to go on, but this post is getting ridiculously long. My apologies to people who are now completely bored. :)
Are you saying that faith is the same as believing what you're told? I'm just trying to understand what you meant. What do you mean by "everything else is negotiable"? :confused:
I believe what my DH meant (although he will correct me tomorrow if i am wrong, i am sure;) ) Is that he feels that some have a belief that this is simply enough, that as long as you profess to, or actually have faith that God is there, than that is ok, that you dont really need to follow Gods law or all of them, or you can simply keep asking for forgiveness iykwim? I know he wouldnt have meant anyone personally, but i do know he has a bit of an issue with people who profess a faith in God, but simply get dressed in their Sunday best and head off to Church once a wk, and then dont bother in their day to day life studying Gods word and really trying to find out what he is saying and what he wants from them. (and lets face it, Athiests and Christians alike all know a few people like that;) )
Anyway, Im pretty sure that you are referring to one of his posts, if it was someone elses, well then dont i look like a big idiot:o
Tea Lady
19-03-2006, 21:55
It was actually one of Mr N's posts Erin, but don't worry, you don't look like a big idiot :)
Ana Gram
19-03-2006, 22:04
Believe it or not us christians get a pretty negative response most of the time too :rolleyes:
I think what would be interesting is for those of us who have had negative responses for either being atheist or religious (that is to cover all of them), to compare what they have been. A kind of shoe on the other foot.
sopolicha
19-03-2006, 22:07
I really should stay away I should but here goes.
This is only what I reckon, it might be a bit to simplistic for some, but hey it works for me.
I think we should treat each and every person we come across with a great deal of empathy, compassion and tolerance. If everyone did that the world would be a much better place. We do not know their life story nor how they have lived or how they chose to live their lives. At the end of the day why should we care how other people live their lives if they are not hurting anyone else, especially one of our own.
I honestly admire anyone with a strong Christian or other faith or anyone with a strong interest or passion in any subject really.
I personally can not subscribe to any sort of religion. However, two out of three of my children have been Baptised in a "mainstream" christian church. This was due to extreme family pressure. If they or my third child want to continue with Sunday School or visits to the family church, I am not going to stop them. It just ain't for me.
I think each person should be free to worship whatever they want to freely as long as they accept that other people will always have different views from them and accept the fact and get over it.
I have one question, admittedly it is not one my one but why do we all know what the ideal of hell is like, but heaven is not explained to us in such terms. I am waiting to be informed.
Ana Gram
19-03-2006, 22:21
I dont think you sound harsh....or do you mean me?:o:ecomcity: LOL
Anyway....
Yup, I definately desire the same for other people too, how could I not? I dont believe on pushing my beliefs on others though. I will share my beliefs and offer support but if somone doesnt want to believe what I do, what can I do? Yes, I would pray for them but never tell them "Oh, I'll pray for your soul or anything like that....." I wouldnt actually say anything. On the odd occasion Ihave asked "would you like me to pray for you..." thats about it.
I know that some people get offended by the idea of Christians praying for them and I really dont want this to start an arguement or get anyone upset. I have never once said "I'll pray for you" to someone who I know wouldnt appreciate it. I do pray for people who I know wouldnt appreciate it (just being honest.) It doenst mean I treat them any differently etc etc. The thing is, if my vision of afterlife/salvation etc and my prayers hold no value to that person, then it really shouldnt matter if I pray to a God who doenst exist in my own private time, should it? I personally think me quietly keeping somone in my prayers is a better way to go than forcefully preaching to them or telling them they're hellbound:rolleyes:
I really really hope this thread says on track.....it has so far and its great:thumbsup:
why don't you tell them you pray for them?
I know you don't see anything wrong with it but lets look at it from my perspective as I simply cannot stand people doing this for me. The reason I get offended and quite annoyed by this is because it is unwanted preaching. It comes across as they do it because I can't be trusted with my own life and well being.
The reason it does matter is when the prayers are the type about me "finding the light and salvation" etc.
It really does depend what the prayers are about I guess. If it is for something like getting better from an illness, that is ok to me as means they care for me but when it is about saving my soul that is really not ok to me.
MrsMiggins
19-03-2006, 22:36
I have to say that if someone says they'll pray for me, it kind of makes me a bit uncomfortable, but I figure - it is them getting the comfort out of it, so whatever floats your boat, right? I mean, it doesn't harm me any, does it?
I have some quite devout friends who say that to me (like for instance, when we were having trouble TTC), and while I don't personally believe in it, I take it as a nice gesture that that person cares about me in their own way.
Notchalk
19-03-2006, 23:11
I have to say that if someone says they'll pray for me, it kind of makes me a bit uncomfortable, but I figure - it is them getting the comfort out of it, so whatever floats your boat, right? I mean, it doesn't harm me any, does it?
Ahh, but how do you know it doesn't harm you? I personally wouldn't like this done to/for me, as who knows what they are messing with?
Incase you haven't guessed, I'm an agnostic.
I admit that I don't know.
The only things I have actual faith in are things like:
myself (most of the time)
and my husband (most of the time)...
I have faith/believe that he loves me and that I am a good person, etc.
Aside from that, I don't *believe* in anything. I like to *know* stuff... not just believe. I know that 2+2 = 4. And that the sky looks blue to me, etc.
Why does there have to be a lesson learnt? Why can't we just *be* here?
And please don't pray for me - I'm fine :) I'm happy not to believe in stuff that I can't know for sure about. I like facts. Stuff I can see.
... but I'm not an atheist, either - I dont' believe there is no god, because as sure as people 'don't believe in god,' it is a belief.
I was brought up Catholic - decided in year 8 that we don't really *know* anything about how we got here, so I wasn't going to be so close-minded as 'the rest of them'. And no, I'm not hedging my bets - I'm just not doing anything. I'm here, that's all I know :)
My husband is an athiest.
My son can be whatever he wants (he's not baptised much to Mother's disgust/fright).:devil6:
Jo
Mister Noodle
19-03-2006, 23:44
Are you saying that faith is the same as believing what you're told? I'm just trying to understand what you meant. What do you mean by "everything else is negotiable"?
Okay, we seem to have a slipped definition. (ow)
"Faith", as I understand the term, means the quality that the emperor posessed that allowed him to see his new clothes: the ability to believe something true by sheer force of will, in the teeth of non-existent or contradictory evidence.
Thus when god appears to be conspicuously absent, you exercise your 'faith', and believe in him anyway - because people with 'faith' are terribly virtuous, somehow.
If you have faith, yea, even as much as a mustard seed, your prayers shall be answered. God evidently admires people who have this quality. Why? What's good about it?
Is this different from your definition of the term? If so, in what way?
Mister Noodle
20-03-2006, 00:07
Frenchie, you say that the OT laws don't apply to christians.
a: What about the 10 commandments?
b: What about Mat 5: 17? "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill."
reAllytee
20-03-2006, 00:10
*Reminds self never to say "i'll pray for you" to anyone on here that i dont know would appreciate it :o
I only say that when i feel its the "right" thing to do ( im catholic its the guilt thing :rolleyes: :p ) but seriously its something i do when someone is ill or their baby is ill or i think its something that i would appreciate guess i have to be careful of how that would be taken. I would never do it in a way to say " im praying to save your soul " i think thats well a bit rude (?) i cant save anyones soul only God & the person who wants to be saved can be. Am i making sense ?
Think i will now watch how or when i say it as i would never want someone to take offence to it.
I believe in everyone making their own decisions for whats right for them for me well at the moment i have no idea where i am but i know i shall find myself soon enough.
I have faith not just in life or myself but in something a little mre higher than that :D
Baby Girl
20-03-2006, 00:13
I thnk by saying "i'll pray for you' you are sayin that a person is in your thoughts and you care about their situation and praying is the way you believe you can help them.
I think it is a lovely thing to say even though I don't share the same views. It still makes me feel like someone cares enough to include me in their beliefs - IYKWIM.
reAllytee
20-03-2006, 00:14
My son can be whatever he wants (he's not baptised much to Mother's disgust/fright).:devil6:
Hahahah im sure she would love us then we have a picture of Lucifer in our home :rolleyes:
My mother was nearly on the floor when we told her about it but as we reminded her its "Lucifer" not "Satan" so its the angel before he was cast down from above which to me is a reminder of many things.
Anyways dont mind me im overtired LOL :o
reAllytee
20-03-2006, 00:16
I thnk by saying "i'll pray for you' you are sayin that a person is in your thoughts and you care about their situation and praying is the way you believe you can help them.
I think it is a lovely thing to say even though I don't share the same views. It still makes me feel like someone cares enough to include me in their beliefs - IYKWIM.
Thats what i meant !!!!!
Thanks schmell ! Least your not suffering from mushy brain LOL :p :)
Ana Gram
20-03-2006, 00:16
As I said it really depends in what circumstance it is. I have had complete strangers come up to me in the street saying they will pray for me. Now I know exactly what they mean by that, they are praying for my salvation and that is just rude!
If you know the person isn't religious though can't you just say you are thinking of them instead of praying for them?
Baby Girl
20-03-2006, 00:19
Obviously if you know the person is not religious at all then it would be presumptious (sp?) of you to say 'i'll pray for you' but if you were unaware of their beliefs (or lack of), such as posting on a thread on Bubhub, then I don't think it is rude thing to say as it is someone's way of being nice, just as yours may be to say 'i'm thinking of you.
reAllytee
20-03-2006, 00:26
As I said it really depends in what circumstance it is. I have had complete strangers come up to me in the street saying they will pray for me. Now I know exactly what they mean by that, they are praying for my salvation and that is just rude!
If you know the person isn't religious though can't you just say you are thinking of them instead of praying for them?
That drives me nuts !!!!
Sorry but i hate the street preachers !
I wear a cross that is plain & visible to those who pass me now ive had them try to harass me as ive come off escalators even while pg & they nearly made me fall one time due to not giving me enough room then when i say " thanks but no thanks " i have gotten the " your going to hell but i shall pray for you " WTH ?!?!?!?! Sorry sunshine but i can look after myself thanks.
So i have to agree that gets me goat up.
But i know ive probably said it to people without knowing on here but i again have never meant it badly but i shall make sure im careful next time.
"self god"?
WTF? I don't worship, period. I most especially don't worship myself. This has got to be the single most common misconception regarding atheists - we don't fill that gap up with *anyone*. We just don't see it as a gap.
And I hold that it takes just as much faith to not believe in god as it takes to not believe in Santa, the Tooth Fairy, Refrigerator Light Man, or to believe that we're not actually in the Matrix.
If we needed faith to fail to believe in every single implausible and unfalsifiable claim that could possibly be made, we'd all need an *infinite* amount of the stuff, conciously applied and upheld for every possible idea.
On what do you place your trust. Everyone shuts their mind off at one time or another whether watching the 6 O'Clock news and take the information "by good faith" or take a rumour from a friend on "good faith".
Did you take it on good faith that the war in Iraq was justified by the claims of Mr Bush and Mr Howard or did you doubt them based upon a gut instinct they were lying.
I believed they were lying it was a gut instinct "substance?" as there was no evidence "evidence unseen" Hebrews 11 thus I placed my faith in my own ability to see through their lies and thus see without sight.
If someone has done me a disservice and then claims to honour their word this time I take it on faith.
There are different levels of faith.
In this case you place your faith in you skills of reasoning unlike an animal which does not possess such skills like a human. Whether you believe or do not believe in something it takes faith in something to reach that conclussion for in all counts each claim is made "I believe ... In God" or "I believe ... in no god" you believe in something, you cannot believe in nothing.
Thus you trust yourself and hopefully test it. I trust the Christian Scriptures and then test it in areas that are testable which I havn't yet had the chance to discuss here with 4 kids but give me time I hope to get there.
alicesmum
20-03-2006, 09:00
words are what are getting us stuck here. as always. words are limiting. nowhere is this more obvious than when speaking about faith/spirituality/religion.
we make in our minds "believe/don't believe" "good/evil" right/wrong" "black/white". we make these abstract conceptualisations in our human minds. the bible says that when you still the mind, then you will know God. then you will know your true self. then you will go beyond words, experience God directly. all these words......it's like we are eating the menu instead of the meal! don't confuse the words with the experience of the Divine. the experience of it is before words, before thinking.
it's like, you can't adequately describe the taste of chocolate cake to someone who has never tasted it.
i thought i would post this interview from a Christain web-site. It is an interview with a Zen priest. Zen calls us (Christian, Jewish, aetheist alike) to experience that which is before this dualistic thinking. Dualistic thinking causes separation which causes war and conflict. But war and conflict begin in our minds.
enjoy:
http://www.theturning.org/folder/zen.html
Notchalk
20-03-2006, 11:14
I think it is a lovely thing to say even though I don't share the same views. It still makes me feel like someone cares enough to include me in their beliefs - IYKWIM.
Yes, but there is a more generic way of saying it, such as "I'm thinking about you". Yup, it's very P.C., but shouldn't 'offend' anyone :)
Jo
Notchalk
20-03-2006, 11:15
Hahahah im sure she would love us then we have a picture of Lucifer in our home :rolleyes:
Heh, I had a cat called Lucifer once :)
Jo
shinebrite
20-03-2006, 13:40
For example, a woman who is married to a violent husband, may need to learn the lessons of developing self worth and confidence to walk away from this situation. I always look at seriously handicapped people, or paralysed people and think about what amazing, highly evolved souls they must be to be capable of learning such tough lessons.
My friend is a vegtable becuase of a car accident and he was the most sensative, well mannerd, giving person I have ever met he didnt and still doesnt need to learn a lesson.
I was abused by my father up until I was 9 years old. what kind of a lesson would u have your 9 yr old son or daughter learn?
The things is and how "I" look at it in a christian point of veiw is the fact when Adam and Eve sinned they took apon themselves what God held in his hands and God gave them a choice, whether the fact it was apple a pear or a bannana they ate they sinned against God and took "life" into there own hands
Just after the tsunami our pastor preached on "why did God DO such a thing" and trust me I HAD my questions GOODNESS ME I just had a friend who was going to be in my bridal party die in a car accident and the other guy who was in the same accident who I knew since i was 13 pronounced a "vegtable" and THEN the tsunami!? I have such a heart for the people of the world who are in "need" of food and shelter and things like that. I would love to help them but i beleive god will call me when he wants me to go as there is a season for everything, but I think u can understand how angry I was, I BALLED my eyes out when i heard about the 9/11 event and trust me I was begining to wonder WTH is going on!
But anyway, he preached on the fact, which I never knew was bfore "the fall of man" there was no rain, it never rained. For God to keep his garden nice and fresh only dew would fall on the earth (or however it works). As I said before when Adam and eve decided to sin (eat the bannana or mango) Sin entered the world (because it was sinless b4) and with sin there is a consequence. Just like if u were to go back in time and change history the future would change just like in back to the future movies ;)
So when they sinned it was VERY unusual for the earth to have rain SO when Noah built his ark people thought he was a looser and had gone mad but he listened to God and befor he knew it rain was coming in by the buckets. SO that rain was a consequence of sin. Just like my friend dying in a car accident, the driver was goin up a VERY well known dangerous road down the coast and it had oil on it they slipped, over corrected, slammed into a car and went off a cliff into a tree.
Now that was a consequence of the surroundings and the fact that if you have a car smash into urs and when the road is slippery it might take somesort of a miracle to survive... unfortunatly the outcome haunts me everyday with such greif and sadness, Just like the tsunami... now Im not a scientist so I wont try to act like one but if the earth palets calide(sp?) there is gonna be a bit of an uproar in the sea and if a tidal wave smashes ur house and ur in it, is that a lesson to be learned or just the consequence of the earth and the surroundings????
But anyhoo, thats my OPINION and some research done by our pastor not me, but I think it makes more sence to me than just a lesson to be learned... If God was up there making peoples life hell just cause of a lesson I dont think i would want to follow him cause he would sound a bit nasty but i know he is God of love because i have experienced his love daily and when I was badly beaten by a father who didnt love me I had angels helping me through that..
So yeah just an opinion pick at it all you want... Im very glad to see this thread hasnt gotten visious and I repect everyones opinions in here :hugs:
I hope that made sence btw bad preggie brains over here!
shinebrite
20-03-2006, 13:51
LOL... and then theres drought in the middle of australia which I know many people have suffered.... I just dont think its a lesson learnt there its just a consequence of the world, sin from the begining and the fact its pretty old by now that its kinda getting to the end of its teather....lol i would be if i was that old...
Man im bored at work! Its a publice holiday and im at work! hence the LOOOOOOOoooooooOOOOONGGGG post.....
Tea Lady
20-03-2006, 22:24
"Faith", as I understand the term, means the quality that the emperor posessed that allowed him to see his new clothes: the ability to believe something true by sheer force of will, in the teeth of non-existent or contradictory evidence.
Thus when god appears to be conspicuously absent, you exercise your 'faith', and believe in him anyway - because people with 'faith' are terribly virtuous, somehow.
If you have faith, yea, even as much as a mustard seed, your prayers shall be answered. God evidently admires people who have this quality. Why? What's good about it?
Is this different from your definition of the term? If so, in what way?
1. I don't think God is conspicuously absent.
2. I don't think people with faith are any more virtuous than anyone else.
3. When the bible talks about faith it has nothing to do with believing something for which you don't have evidence - the word translated "faith" (from both Hebrew and Greek) just means trust. You can trust someone because you have evidence they are trustworthy. BTW I think evidence and proof are 2 different things - I don't claim to be able to prove God exists.
4. The parts of the Bible you are referring to don't say that God answers peoples' prayers because he admires their faith. They just says that he does answer the prayers of people who have faith, not why he does it. The point of Jesus saying that you only have to have faith the size of a mustard seed (ie not much) seems to me to be saying that it's all about who you have faith in, not "how faithful" you are that decides whether your prayers are answered.
I hope that made sense.
Frenchie, you say that the OT laws don't apply to christians.
a: What about the 10 commandments?
b: What about Mat 5: 17? "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill."
That was actually me as well :)
I don't think the 10 commandments apply to christians. I think that many of the same ideas have been restated in the new testament, so in effect I think christians should do some of the same things as the 10 com. say, but not because the 10 com. say it IYKWIM.
The Matt 5 verse is actually one which supports the idea that the Old Testament laws no longer apply. Jesus fulfilled the "law" by obeying it perfectly and fulfilled the "prophets" by the way he lived and died.
By fulfilling the law he completed it, leaving nothing else to be done.
I should add that there are plenty of christians who disagree (some vehemently) with this position, and I'm not at all claiming to speak on behalf of all christians here.
Regarding praying for other people.......... I can definitely see why it bothers some people to be told "I'll be praying for you" and I don't say this to people unless I know they won't mind. I might ask people if I'm not sure - i don't imagine you could really take offence at just being asked.
On a personal note, I really wouldn't be bothered if Jehovahs witnesses or Mormons or Muslims or anyone else decided to pray for me to believe what they believe. I figure if their god isn't true then I have absolutely no reason to worry it would have any impact on my life. If they are true then I probably should believe them anyway. JMO
I think what would be interesting is for those of us who have had negative responses for either being atheist or religious (that is to cover all of them), to compare what they have been. A kind of shoe on the other foot.
I think from reading some of your other posts it would be a safe bet to say you've come off alot worse than me on this one! Most of the things that bother me are probably pretty mild compared to what you've had - more along the lines of people telling me I'm intolerant / interfering (as a result of expressing a point of view, not because I was assaulting people on the street :rolleyes: ) or talking about things I value in a disparaging way when they know how I feel. It's funny because within my extended family you get a whole lot more respect for being an atheist than a christian, but it sounds like it's the reverse for alot of people on here.
I think in our culture it is alot more acceptable to not hold strong beliefs regardless of what they're for or against - it's much more PC to say that everyone is right to think what they want. That could explain some of the negative reactions to both atheists and christians I suppose.
Enough of my rambling. :)
Tea Lady
20-03-2006, 22:35
I have one question, admittedly it is not one my one but why do we all know what the ideal of hell is like, but heaven is not explained to us in such terms. I am waiting to be informed.
Sorry, didn't mean to overlook you Sopolicha!
I don't actually think the Bible says heaps about either heaven or hell (if that was what you meant - ?). In popular culture you see either cartoon style devils dancing around in flames with pitchforks or an old guy with a beard on a throne surrounded by harp-playing cherubs and clouds. I think it would be a safe bet to assume that both of these are fairly wide of the mark!
I'm not sure of this, but from memory I think the Bible says more about God's kingdom and new creation (which is the way the Bible talks about "heaven") than it does about hell. It says quite a bit about it anyway. I could be wrong on the statistics though. :)
tanni_83
20-03-2006, 22:37
i just have to say tea lady, you have a lot of patience for long posts lol
Frazzled
20-03-2006, 22:52
I don't think the 10 commandments apply to christians. I think that many of the same ideas have been restated in the new testament, so in effect I think christians should do some of the same things as the 10 com. say, but not because the 10 com. say it IYKWIM.
The Matt 5 verse is actually one which supports the idea that the Old Testament laws no longer apply. Jesus fulfilled the "law" by obeying it perfectly and fulfilled the "prophets" by the way he lived and died.
By fulfilling the law he completed it, leaving nothing else to be done.
I strongly believe that the Old Testament and many of its teachings still are important to Christians - sometimes a lot more than what the New Testament teaches us. What about are many, many important stories of our ancestors and our God. Our origins and our history as Christians (and Jews and Muslims alike) are entrenched in the Old Testament - hence why it is still part of the modern day Christian bible.
My biggest thing with Christians and what we can learn from the OT is the role of women in the Church. Look at women who had pivotal roles like Sophia and many others in the OT and then look how the role of women became second-rate through the NT. After Jesus' death, the role of women in the early church was rewritten by the male dominated church of the middle ages - because heavens above - we couldn't have women presiding over the eucharist and leading liturgy etc etc!
I know this isn''t quite in sinc with what you are saying, but just my thoughts! :ecomcity:
Ana Gram
21-03-2006, 00:04
Regarding praying for other people.......... I can definitely see why it bothers some people to be told "I'll be praying for you" and I don't say this to people unless I know they won't mind. I might ask people if I'm not sure - i don't imagine you could really take offence at just being asked.
On a personal note, I really wouldn't be bothered if Jehovahs witnesses or Mormons or Muslims or anyone else decided to pray for me to believe what they believe. I figure if their god isn't true then I have absolutely no reason to worry it would have any impact on my life. If they are true then I probably should believe them anyway. JMO
I think from reading some of your other posts it would be a safe bet to say you've come off alot worse than me on this one! Most of the things that bother me are probably pretty mild compared to what you've had - more along the lines of people telling me I'm intolerant / interfering (as a result of expressing a point of view, not because I was assaulting people on the street :rolleyes: ) or talking about things I value in a disparaging way when they know how I feel. It's funny because within my extended family you get a whole lot more respect for being an atheist than a christian, but it sounds like it's the reverse for alot of people on here.
As for the praying, as I said it really depends on the circumstance. And it also depends on the person and what their experience has been with religion. I guess what I am saying is don't expect that you will always get a nice reaction to it. And I am equal oppertunity in my annoyance for people praying for my soul or salvation, every single one would get the same reaction. :D
Much of the bad treatment I have received has usually been as a result of my appearance more than being an athiest in my later years. And although I acknowledge that the peple who have treated me shockingly are complete nutters reguardless of their religion, it really has sullied my opinion of all religions. And some of the worst offenders have been figure heads of the christian church and it was when I was a child many years before becoming a goth!
So 20 years of ill feeling about religion has led me to be quite skeptical of the teachings of religion.
Tea Lady
21-03-2006, 09:56
i just have to say tea lady, you have a lot of patience for long posts lol
It's not hard when you don't have a life!! :p
I strongly believe that the Old Testament and many of its teachings still are important to Christians - sometimes a lot more than what the New Testament teaches us. What about are many, many important stories of our ancestors and our God. Our origins and our history as Christians (and Jews and Muslims alike) are entrenched in the Old Testament - hence why it is still part of the modern day Christian bible.
My biggest thing with Christians and what we can learn from the OT is the role of women in the Church. Look at women who had pivotal roles like Sophia and many others in the OT and then look how the role of women became second-rate through the NT. After Jesus' death, the role of women in the early church was rewritten by the male dominated church of the middle ages - because heavens above - we couldn't have women presiding over the eucharist and leading liturgy etc etc!
I agree that the OT and it's teachings are important to Christians, I just don't think it's required that christians follow the "rules" in the OT.
I'm not sure who you mean by Sophia - I don't remember one from the OT (or is my brain just mush? Quite possibly!).
I actually think that women have a very positive role in the New Testament, and I don't think there's much evidence to support the idea that the bible has been tampered with by the anti women brigade.
Anyway, just my thoughts too. :)
Mister Noodle
21-03-2006, 10:08
Well, here's a question, Tea Lady...
If there's no laws (post-NT), then how can you break any?
If you cannot break any laws, how can you have sinned?
If you have not sinned, then what need for salvation?
If you do not need salvation, what need for a saviour?
Now personally, I agree with this last part, but then, I'm not a christian...
Mister Noodle
21-03-2006, 10:13
You make an interesting point about the role of women.
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Perhaps God presents him/her/itself (aagh) to people in a way they can deal with, or not at all if that's easier.
Have you picked up a book on a shelf, scanned it and thought 'that's not for me'? But another person will pick up that same book and devour it? It seems that we see (or even seek out) things that we can relate to.
Do you think that religion could be similar? People learn and respond to things differently - some people love strict guidelines, others love to feel free to explore all the options, some would rather ignore it, some choose to be ambivilent. Perhaps some people just don't need to have any belief (in God, spirituality, afterlife, the meaning of life etc) in their lives?
Although it appears that generally most people since the dawn of man (there's a whole other issue :eek: ) have had some belief.
I was wondering if those who follow the bible closely and claim it is the only truth had been born in a totally different society (perhaps a 'dreamtime' Aborigine, or a Cherokee Indian) would struggle with their concept of the connection to mother earth as 'their God'. Is it possible that they chose to come into the world in a Christian environment as the bible provides them with the direction they need to learn their life lessons, instead of a society with different beliefs?
I hope that doesn't sound too jumbled.
Mister Noodle
21-03-2006, 10:57
Wattle,
Aah, but the point is, we're talking about claims presented as truth. The vast majority of the claims made are mutually exclusive.
The universe can't be both 6000 years old and 15 billion(ish) years old. They aren't 'life lessons', they're statements of (perceived) fact.
People teach that there really *is* a man in the sky who will torture you with fire if you fail to do A B or C, or dare to do X, Y or Z.
People teach that there really *is* a man in the sky who will cure disease if you grovel to him a lot, and that this is infinitely more effective than sending your child to the doctor. Incidentally, children die when this fails to work.
People teach that homosexuals really *are* posessed of satan, and must be forcibly 'cured', made to feel guilt and shame for their entire lives, forced to spend a loveless existence, and/or just flat-out killed.
There's possibly about three people on the planet that teach religions as some giant, vague parable.
The rest teach them as bald statements of fact: There is a god(ess), whose name is ____, who did ____ and ____, and who wants you to do ____. If you do ____, they will make ____ happen. No two ways about it.
And the fact is, statements of fact either are right, or they arent. And reasoning from untrue statements doesn't get you very far, especially where people's lives and freedom are at stake.
The bible also states that pi is equal to 3. Is this a 'life lesson' for engineers, ir is it just plain incorrect? What would the lesson be, do you suppose?
alicesmum
21-03-2006, 11:39
hey mr noodle:
just like to point out that buddhism does not, as far as I know, fit that description. it does not claim to have a monopoly on truth and though there are some teachings about being reborn as something not very fun (like a bug) if you are horrible to others, most f the teachings about karma suggest that it's your own mind you pollute if you act unethically.
there are also certainly two or more "ways about it" with buddhism. the openness to other ways of interpreting things is why there are many denominations but, as far as I know, they have never gone into conflict with one another, unlike the Abrahamic religions and their various off-shoots. As someone already mentioned, questioning and challenging is encouraged. The scriptures are not the inerrant, unchallengable word of a supernatural being, but open for testing to see if they are true for you. And I would never argue with a Theravidin buddhist about the nature of the beginning of time, 'coz we'd both agree that such things cannot be known. anyway, just to note that your description does not apply to buddhism.
wattle, i think that was very well put. i agree with you wholeheartedly. i grew up going to church, still read the bible sometimes, have 2 copies actually, and have attended various church services with friends of different denominations (not recently however). but when i stumbled across the buddhist teachings, they spoke loudly to me. in the same way that christian teachings must speak to others. when this happened I became so sympathetic to why people would embrace christianity so passionately. i knew how they felt. how meaningful it must be for them. it is SO interesting. nothing in Christian teachings ever did it for me really, ever gave me an 'epiphany' like the buddhist teachings did. :) it is like your analogy of people liking different books, needing different things. i find it so sad to know that some people think other religions are the work of Satan, when for some people, these religions or spiritual traditions have transformed their lives and the lives of people around them for the better. It just doesn't make sense that God would allow other teachings to strike such a chord with different people. Unless it is the Devil doing it to me hehehehe:devil6: but then, how would it have made my life and those around me so more full of compassion and peacefulness if it was the devil hey!!!???
Enough ranting from me. Some people have Christian karma. Some people have Buddhist karma. Some people have Pagan karma. Cat Stevens must have has Muslim karma. Madonna must have had Jewish karma! Richard Gere must have Tibetan karma. Some people have atheist, scientific karma. Some people are still searching.
It;s not like we can really help it. We are drawn to what we are drawn to.
Mister Noodle
21-03-2006, 11:52
But how is any claim with a truth value (such as the age of the earth, the value of pi, or what will happen to you when you're dead) a matter of what you "like"?
Is the number of coffee cups on my desk right now a matter of 'what works for you', or is there an actual correct answer? (whether or not you can know that answer is unimportant)
What's the difference?
(moral claims do fall in this category, imho - because the way they're usually stated is a category error - but more on that later.)
alicesmum
21-03-2006, 13:38
(whether or not you can know the answer is unimportant)
I disagree that this issue of 'knowing the answer' is unimportant. It is because we can't know the answers to some questions (like what happens to "me" when "I" die) that religion exists. You can calculate the value of pi, make an estimate of the age of the earth, and then put these into language which exists within the confines of the human mind anyway. but some things cannot be known in the usual (i.e., logical, linear) way. Even if we could prove the big bang theory is correct, the question remains: where did all the matter come from in the first place. What was there before? Even if there is an answer, I doubt we could understand it anyway. This is the clue to spirituality I think (not religion, that's a whole other thing). This "not knowing". But people don't like not knowing. They are not cool with it. So they come to "know" these things through a religious system. But to me, the deeply spiritual experience lies in the not knowing.
In regards to your Q of why people "like" this or that, well of course people "like" to believe different things. Some people like to believe they are going to heaven where everything will be just dandy and God will wrap them in an eternal warm hug. Why wouldn't you want to believe that if you could. Some people like to believe they will come back again as a different person who, if they have been living a good life, has a better existence than they have right now. Another understandable (note, i didn't say "rational") belief.
but if you buy into a whole system of belief like christianity, you are told that you can't just pick and choose. you have to take it all on board. so you believe in heaven and in eden and that homosexuality/other relgions/sex b4 marraige is wrong.
Having said all that, it occurs to me that I don't actually know what you are asking Mister Noodle? I am confused! :rolleyes:
Signed,
Pregnant and confused! :ecomcity:
Mister Noodle
21-03-2006, 14:01
Indeed - I think you got the wrong end of the stick.
Lemme try again.
Fred says: "There are three coffee cups on Mister Noodle's desk".
Joe says: "There are four coffee cups on Mister Noodle's desk"
You say: "Fred and Joe both have the right answer. The actual number of coffee cups on Mister Noodle's desk is the number that suits your way of learning about the world".
Mister Noodle says: "What on earth are you smoking, lady, and can I have some, please?"
Make sense?
(The point being that there aren't two right answers to any factual claim - by definition)
MonkeyMum05
21-03-2006, 14:11
...and they could be right too, Mr Noodle, depending on what they each believe!
alicesmum
21-03-2006, 14:11
Sure. So saying that pi = 2 is just ridiculous and you won't find people who believe that the earth is both 6000 years old and 12 billion (or whatever the geologists say it is).
But you already agree that some things are unknowable, yeh?? So isn't that the reason why there are differing opinions (about these unknowlables)?? And I assume you agree then, given this situation, that it is better to be a "strong agnostic" with regards to such issues....
MonkeyMum05
21-03-2006, 14:13
Joe may count 'differently' to the rest of the world, and so his answer would be correct to him, in accordance with his belief.
You may believe it is wrong, and be able to 'prove' it... but only according to your beliefs.
Mister Noodle
21-03-2006, 14:33
...and they could be right too, Mr Noodle, depending on what they each believe!
Mm, no.
They could be right if their statement were "I personally believe that X is true", but that's a very, very different claim from "X is actually true".
One is a statement about the state of their mind, the other is a statement about object in the world outside of their mind.
MonkeyMum05
21-03-2006, 14:42
Why would he need to say 'I personally believe'
Would you have said 'I personally believe there are 3 cups'?
...Should you have said 'Mm no, not in my personal opinion' to me?
What makes you always correct? Your belief that you are correct?
Mister Noodle
21-03-2006, 14:43
As for counting differently - it's true that I'm a millionaire movie star, if by "millionaire" I mean "dirt-poor", and by "movie star", I mean "tech support monkey".
I'm not sure that this proves much.
More to the point, no matter how I define anything, my credit card is still declined when I try to buy a new porsche - which is a pretty good test, you have to admit.
MonkeyMum05
21-03-2006, 14:44
I guess that would be a good test!
..and i apologise for the misuse of the word 'always' in my last post
MonkeyMum05
21-03-2006, 14:50
Anyway, Mr Noodle, just wanted to add a bit to what I thought was turning into a kind of ammusing string of posts.:D
I have no need to prove anything to you, and don't wish to enter into any further debate.:o (But will probably continue to read this thread in silence!)
Mister Noodle
21-03-2006, 14:58
Monkeymum - do you see the difference between the two types of statement?
In one, the person's mind is the subject. In the other, the coffee cups are the subject.
I'm not sure it's possible to be wrong about your own state of mind, as it's very close to being true by definition. It's certainly possible to be lying about it (another kettle of fish), but I think it's vacuously true that you think whatever you think you think.
On the other hand, it's amazingly easy to be wrong about coffee cups.
Now, I could indeed either be right or wrong with my (either with my count of the coffee cups or indeed my "mmm, no"), because it's a factual claim I'm making.
The statement has a truth value - it's either true or false, I'm either right or I'm not. But I can't be both right *and* wrong at the same time - it doesn't matter who the answer suits or doesn't. People who agree with the right answer are right, people who agree with the wrong answer are wrong.
Even if we can't tell which people are which, because we don't (or can't) know the answer, they're all *actually* in one camp or the other.
Does that make sense?
Mister Noodle
21-03-2006, 14:59
And meh, no retreating in silence - this is fun!
Have at you!
*tosses you a replacement sabre*
MonkeyMum05
21-03-2006, 15:15
*drops sabre* (why would I need that?)
Well... your ploy worked, because here I am, posting again! Just can't bite my tongue, can I?!:D
Yes, what you said makes sense... it was a 'wordy' way around, but it makes sense. I never implied that you didn't make sense... Though I still don't feel in agreeance with you.
Who says whats 'right' or 'wrong'... 'true' or 'false?!
Exactly, right or wrong, true or false..... when applied to religious belief can be all in the interepretation of the individual.
It wasn't that long ago that people 'knew' the world was flat. How dare someone even suggest it was round, goodness, we'd all fall off.
If nobody ever questioned, then the world would probably still be flat.
I think we all find eachothers optinions interesting for a reason....... what's yours?
Mind you, memory plays havoc with the 'truth'
If you were to ask people tomorrow how many coffee cups were on Mr Noodles desk yesterday you may well get a group of different answers. You might also get several people swearing blind that they can distinctly remember different numbers of coffee cups.
Without any photographic evidence which is the truth then?
Mister Noodle
21-03-2006, 17:03
Wattle - I think we're talking at cross purposes here.
It's absolutely a good thing to question and to disagree with received wisdom if you don't believe it - the idea being that you test your version and the original, and see which corresponds better to reality.
My only objection to all the above was that factual claims such as "The earth was created by God 6000 years ago", "The earth is a natural accretion of solar ejecta that coalesced billions of years ago", and "The earth is actually a gigantic pearl embedded in the flesh of the Purple Oyster of Doom" are mutually exclusive, and no matter "which truth suits you better", or "how well your relate to it", at most one of them can be true. It can't be true "to one person", and false "to another".
Whether or not the book I pick up appeals to me, its message either is valid or it isn't. Trying to be all-inclusive to the point that you claim that all religious beliefs are simultaneously equally valid and true... simply makes the concept of "truth" empty and meaningless.
Which is not to say that my own beliefs are necessarily right - that would be an entirely different, and entirely unjustified claim (at least in this context :D ).
Mister Noodle
21-03-2006, 17:09
Hang on.
If nobody ever questioned, then the world would probably still be flat.
Um, no. No it wouldn't, and that's the exact essence of what I've been getting at.
The earth has never been flat. Even if the entire world thinks something is true, doesn't make it so. The fact that the people standing on it revised ther opinion did NOT make the earth suddenly change shape.
And maria, indeed, people's memory is notoriously terrible. But the contents of someone's mind does NOT alter the nature of reality.
If everyone on the planet simultaneously forgot about the mysterious fourth coffee cup on my desk, and believed with the deepest possible conviction that there were only three... wouldn't matter worth a damn. There still would *actually* have been the number that there were, no matter whether that number is, was or possibly could be known by any number of people.
Ok, so I can't leave this alone!! :D
I am moving a little off the beaten track, however, what really disgusts me is....
I am a catholic, and was baptised catholic when born etc, catholic high school (which I did enjoy attending) and value the fact that I have a belief system that I have personalised you could say.
I went to church here in Australia on Easter one year, and was absolutely appalled that the collection plate during mass came around not once, twice or even three times, but six! Religion to me isn't a user pays system. :shame:
It insults me that this would happen, and deters me from actively following my faith in a community sense.
I support other people's faiths. My husband is an athiest, and hey thats cool.
..... I guess I could pray for his eternally damned soul ........ :devil6:
Saraswati
21-03-2006, 18:11
Perhaps then, it is better to say with regards to our differing religious, spiritual beliefs, that we are in fact ALL WRONG (as opposed to ALL RIGHT). none of us can really know the truth and there are compelling arguments to shoot down almost every differing opinion, so maybe it doesn't matter what we believe because none of us are capable, with our human minds, of knowing the absolute truth. And I don't think backing up one's opinion with verses from the bible countsas proof, considering how many different ways this book can be interpreted.
This actually isn't my opinion though, mine is that we are all right - in that way I agree with Wattle, and I also believe we have different karmas and are progessing at different rates spiritually, which draws us to different philosophies and / or religions in each life times. In this way, I agree with Alice'sMum. In fact, the two go together. We are all on our own personal path.
MonkeyMum05
21-03-2006, 18:16
:yelclap:
I agree that we cannot possibly understand the absolute truth with our human minds.
If we totally understood the absolute truth why would we be here? Wouldn't our journey have reached it's end? (I know you're not going to agree with that one Mr Noodle!!)
bronny-jane
21-03-2006, 18:38
i was just wondering if anyones going to bring up the subject of raeliens, scientology and other "new" religions.:detective:
Saraswati
21-03-2006, 19:16
Yeah, i wish someone would explain scientology to me. The previous tennant of a flat i used to live in was a scientologist and when I moved in, we continued to receive her monthly scientologist newsletter. Every month I would read them and be totally baffled. It was written in english, yet made no sense at all! Something to do with 'bridges' or something... Totally over my head.
Saraswati
21-03-2006, 19:17
What about Kabbalah, does anyone know what it's about?
bronny-jane
21-03-2006, 19:24
i dont know much about kabalah, but i have a friend who's a kabalist priest, all i know is that its really old, and something to do with jewish mysticism.
scientolgy, i have no idea what their on about, im confused to, i cant believe how many celebrities are involved. from what i gathered from their website its not something im to keen on. i keep reading all the things this head guy has written, i guess their his philosophies, any way there so similar to what i used to write when i was 15 and stoned, so i doubt i'll ever be converted. better be careful though tom cruise might be watching:laughing:
Mister Noodle
21-03-2006, 19:38
Pippy - there's nothing to stop us stumbling on the actual truth, even if we can never prove (or even know) that we are right.
If you've exactly guessed the number of grains of sand on the beach, you're still right, even if nobody ever counts them.
For an astounding amount of information on scientology, see http://www.xenu.net/ - it's a somewhat hostile take, granted, but it does link to sites on all sides of the debate, including the CoS's own site.
And check out the south park episode. It's absolutely stone-cold, word-for-word the exact details of the underlying beliefs of scientology. I kid you not. They didn't NEED any jokes for that show.
Ana Gram
21-03-2006, 19:46
If we totally understood the absolute truth why would we be here? Wouldn't our journey have reached it's end? (I know you're not going to agree with that one Mr Noodle!!)
I have a question. Why does there have to be an absolute truth and a journey?
I don't think there are either of these things, so that entire arguement doesn't fly with me.
Ana Gram
21-03-2006, 19:49
And check out the south park episode. It's absolutely stone-cold, word-for-word the exact details of the underlying beliefs of scientology. I kid you not. They didn't NEED any jokes for that show.
Yep, that's right. I have a friend who was being sued by the CoS for putting it all on the internet several years ago. And the South Park team put no names to any part of that show to avoid being sued.
bronny-jane
21-03-2006, 20:04
did you check out the scan of tomcats baby:laughing: i couldnt stop laughing, still giggling
Ffrenchknickers
22-03-2006, 07:15
LOL Mr Noodle, from reading your posts, I see that you cant make a logical arguement against Christianity becasue you have very little understanding of it. You absolutely dont understand the personal relationship that Christians have with God which proves Him and the Bible to be true above and beyond all else. I dont expect anyone who hasnt experinces it to be able to understand it, BUT some of the such self assured claims that you make are way over the top. God is available to everyone, everyone has the chance to know Him.
I agree in a way with what you said Wattle about our journey being over if we had the absolute truth. I think that we never stop learning but I believe that within my Chistian belief. I believe that God wrote the Bible in such a way that we will never stop learning and infact never know His whole truth and everything about Him until we reach Heaven:)
COR13:12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known.
Here's a link to Scientology beliefs....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_beliefs_and_practices#Beliefs_and_cent ral_tenets_of_Scientology
Mister Noodle
22-03-2006, 08:34
So, come rebut the arguments, if they can be so easily demolished, instead of using the Argument From Patronage. ("There there, you couldn't possibly understand, but your doomed attempts to do so are so charmingly inept... *pat on head*")
I could take a similarly patronising tone myself, and trust me, you wouldn't like it.
So, game on. How do you rebut my arguments, and how could I distinguish your claims from ones that could equally well be made by a person that was deluded or lying?
I could look you straight in the eye and tell you that I have a deeply spiritual, *personal* relationship with my washing machine, that I talk to it every day and that it gives me the strength, hope and joy to carry on. But you couldn't possibly understand it, of course - you've never experienced the Love Of Panasonic firsthand, and you *obviously* lack the ability to make a logical statement about it.
How would you demolish *my* claim without sabotaging yours just as badly?
Ah, buggrit. I'll say it anyway.
Yes, I am extremely damned offended that you take that smug, patronising and insulting tone with me. Demolish my arguments first, [text removed by moderator]. Using your claim that [text removed by moderator] *as* your rebuttal of my claims is nothing short of argumentam ad hominem.
MonkeyMum05
22-03-2006, 11:05
Mr Noodle, it seems to me that you are purposely provoking arguments?! (Which of course you will probably 'intellectualise' by stating something along the lines of 'no, you are simply discussing and debating facts and opinions....lalalala')
...and after saying that, I am aware that you will probably disect what I have typed, pull it apart and feed it back to me in a more 'wordy' manner, whilst adding your own 'highly educated' opinion.
Why are you continually encouraging people to debate with you??
Is it some kind of personal challenge?
Is it a sign that you are insecure and unsure of what you believe, but not willing to admit it?
Is it just fun?
...I am honestly curious.
Mister Noodle
22-03-2006, 11:37
I enjoy debate. It's fun :)
It's also a great way to get to know people. I never was any good at smalltalk - IME, you get more acquainted with people in half an hour of focussed debate than you do in a week of talking about the weather. Your values, principles, assumptions and personality get laid bare and thoroughly tested - I bet we know each other better already than anyone we've exchanged an equal number of posts with on general chitchat.
And besides - what could be more interesting than ontology, eschatology and all the other topics we've been getting into? They underly everything else, so the ramifications are HUGE for every field derived from them.
Why are you continually encouraging people to debate with you??
In a thread that Noodle started asking atheists to identify themselves, others came in and started to try and debate the virtues of theism. That's why he started this thread. He was asked to share his views and debate the issues.
Is it a sign that you are insecure and unsure of what you believe, but not willing to admit it?
Believe me, he's very secure within his beliefs (or lack therein). That is why he is able to scrutinise and question them extent he does.
And incidentally, suggesting that atheists have an underlying belief in a deity and that they are afraid to admit it is probably as offensive to them as suggesting that a homophobic person is a latent homosexual.
Is it just fun?
Yes. Isn't that why anyone debates anything? In the grand scheme of things, one stranger's opinion doesn't matter at all to a bunch of other strangers on the internet, so why do we continue to debate anything? Human beings are opinionated and have a desire to express those opinions. Especially when asked.
Oh and Noodle, regarding that deep spiritual relationship you have with your washing machine ... the Love of Panasonic, was it?
Ummm ... it's an LG.
Maybe an offering of a load of t-shirts would redress that slight.
Mister Noodle
22-03-2006, 11:46
*lick*
Did I ever mention that I love you, beanybabe?
Ana Gram
22-03-2006, 11:54
Oh and Noodle, regarding that deep spiritual relationship you have with your washing machine ... the Love of Panasonic, was it?
Ummm ... it's an LG.
Maybe an offering of a load of t-shirts would redress that slight.
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: I am probably right in thinking that you have a closer more personal relationship with the washing machine!
*lick*
Did I ever mention that I love you, beanybabe?
oh please, get a room!!! :barf:
;) :p
Mr Noodle, it seems to me that you are purposely provoking arguments?! (Which of course you will probably 'intellectualise' by stating something along the lines of 'no, you are simply discussing and debating facts and opinions....lalalala')
...and after saying that, I am aware that you will probably disect what I have typed, pull it apart and feed it back to me in a more 'wordy' manner, whilst adding your own 'highly educated' opinion.
Why are you continually encouraging people to debate with you??
Is it some kind of personal challenge?
Is it a sign that you are insecure and unsure of what you believe, but not willing to admit it?
Is it just fun?
...I am honestly curious.
Monkeymum, several people asked Mr Noodle to start this thread as they had things they wanted to share regarding his points of view but they didnt want to hijack the athiest thread, noone here is arguing, i think this thread is still cruising along very nicely. :)
Mister Noodle
22-03-2006, 12:16
Though *grumble* I'm not sure I like the analogy to homophobia.
...I mean, I have nothing against theists themselves, as people - it's only the physical act of worship that I find disg...
I shut up now :D
To pick up on a point raised by Bigw a few pages back, if you are a practising Catholic, Methodist whatever, and you do not like the practises of your local church
would you
(a) stop practising
(b) stop practising at that particular place of worship
(c) try and change the offending behaviour (or reconcile to it after discussion)
Saraswati
22-03-2006, 12:37
Yeah, don't go away Mr Noodle, you're a great asset to this debate.
I just checked out that scientology link. Holy **** :eek: , I never realised just how warped that cult is! The theory of Xenu and our ghost-infested bodies is incredibly far-fetched, can't believe people actually buy into it. Poor naive Katie Holmes, she's so doomed.
MonkeyMum05
22-03-2006, 12:39
Beany, I did not intend to 'suggest that atheists have an underlying belief in a deity' - I apologise if it came across that way.
I admit that my post was a knee-jerk reaction! I probably shouldn't have posted it, but I did... oh, well, guess I'm human?
I also realise that other people wanted this thread started aswell...
Just that some of Mr Noodles posts, I found to be condescending.
Also, when replying to Frenchstar he was encouraging her to rebutt his points... to enter into further debate with him... and yesterday, when I backed down, he encouraged me to step back up. I know its everyones own choice to read and reply etc, but as I said in my post, I was honestly curious as to why he seemed enjoyed debating so much?
I'm sorry that I seem to have offended.
alicesmum
22-03-2006, 12:43
Though *grumble* I'm not sure I like the analogy to homophobia.
...I mean, I have nothing against theists themselves, as people - it's only the physical act of worship that I find disg...
I shut up now :D
you mean like kneeling
this thread is getting a bit lude for this little catholic school-girl!!! ;)
To pick up on a point raised by Bigw a few pages back, if you are a practising Catholic, Methodist whatever, and you do not like the practises of your local church
would you
(a) stop practising
(b) stop practising at that particular place of worship
(c) try and change the offending behaviour (or reconcile to it after discussion)
i would stop practising at that particular place of worship, if i have an issue with other people and their practises it doesnt mean i then have an issue with Gos iykwim? :) Interesting question Maria, because i have come across several people who have turned from their faith because of their experiences with one particular church, or one 'flavour' of worship, i dont understand this, it is the people within the church that have done bad things, not God. Id be interested to see what others experiences have been with this. :)
Ana Gram
22-03-2006, 12:45
Someone answer my question I asked several pages ago!!
Pippy, can you see why athiests don't get any type of religion? Because to me the bible soundss like the same type of thing as the scientology idea.
Monkey Mum, again it is a two way street. You may find some of Mr Noodles post condecending but sometimes the statement of "You don't understand because you don't have a personal relationship with god" , can be just as condecending.
Ana Gram
22-03-2006, 12:49
i would stop practising at that particular place of worship, if i have an issue with other people and their practises it doesnt mean i then have an issue with Gos iykwim? :) Interesting question Maria, because i have come across several people who have turned from their faith because of their experiences with one particular church, or one 'flavour' of worship, i dont understand this, it is the people within the church that have done bad things, not God. Id be interested to see what others experiences have been with this. :)
I can answer this one for you, my friend has turned from the church completely and is going through a very emotional time of dealing of her issues with her god and trying to figure out if she can continue with it.
For her it is more than the people in the church, it is the teachings of her church which state that she and her partner are an abomination in the eyes of the lord. Pretty tough thing to deal with.
OK guys lets try and get back on track. I don't think anyone really wants to feel offended here.
In a good discussion people listen (or read) eachothers opionions without judgement and then contribute.
Remember - it's OK to have different opionions, that's why it's an interesting thread.
Mister Noodle
22-03-2006, 12:51
hehe
MariaO, it was just a joke. Paraphrasing the standard homophobe getout clause, as an ironic hat-tip to the comparison.
Thanks Chelle :)
I can see your point, i imagine it is one thing to be upset by some people in the Church, it is quite another to be made to feel that God is against you, or that you are some sort of an abomination.
Monkeymum: I agree - Noodle can be a condescending little twit sometimes. Okay, a big twit. A lot of the time :p And feel free to kick him in the shins when he does behave like that - or ask me to do so and I will very happily oblige.
But, to be fair, people have been equally condescending to him. Telling him that he couldn't possibly understand something is equal to calling him intellectually stunted. It's a hot-button issue with most atheists - they are treated as intellectually, morally and ethically inferior to the rest of society because of their beliefs systems.
And don't worry - I'm not offended. I was just explaining why he reacted in the way he did. In a less wordy manner than he would have. :p
MonkeyMum05
22-03-2006, 13:00
Monkey Mum, again it is a two way street. You may find some of Mr Noodles post condecending but sometimes the statement of "You don't understand because you don't have a personal relationship with god" , can be just as condecending.
Umm, I never quoted that... nor would I as I don't have a 'personal relationship with god'
Monkeymum, she never said you did;) It was just an example o a comment someone else had made.
Please contribute to the thread with your thoughts and ideas or just leave it be. :)
I know you were joking Mr Noodle, so was I - just a throwaway comment - Sorry Alicesmum - I did not mean to be lewd I was just carrying on the play on words
anyway, Chellegoth, I can see why your friend would feel like that. She has a value clash with her church and it's teachings - I certainly would not want much to do with them were I her.
I am just curious about how empowered people feel generally to change things in their churches. It seems to me, from my very limited knowledge, that there is more lay involvement these days and that it is not as top down as previously in a lot of Christian churches anyway.
Chickadee
22-03-2006, 14:16
I am just curious about how empowered people feel generally to change things in their churches. It seems to me, from my very limited knowledge, that there is more lay involvement these days and that it is not as top down as previously in a lot of Christian churches anyway.
Interesting question, but I think this it's off topic and if you or others want to pursue it would be worth it's own thread.
Ffrenchknickers
22-03-2006, 14:30
Monkey Mum, again it is a two way street. You may find some of Mr Noodles post condecending but sometimes the statement of "You don't understand because you don't have a personal relationship with god" , can be just as condecending.
It was me who said that, and I maintain that to be a fact. I was not intending it to be condescending, merely stating that there is no real arguement here if one hasnt experienced what the other person has. No one will ever be able to take away the realtionship wth God that I have because He is bigger than any person. It is not a put down at all....I have said plenty of times that I cant judge anyone for not being a Christian because they are coming from a different experience than me...I am not saying anyone is any less than me because they havent experienced it, I thought I made that clear....I really did.
It makes sense to.....I have no idea what it is like to be blind/deaf/paralised/have brown hair because I have never been there. What I was getting at was that no matter what anyone says, it will not change my relationship with God, I dont believe it can be put up against any human reasoning, no matter how intelligent one claims to be.
No one can argue that I dont have a relationship with God, no one can prove that I dont, so the arguement is pointless. That is what I meant. :)
Mister Noodle
22-03-2006, 14:36
Actually, I was mostly irked by
LOL Mr Noodle, from reading your posts, I see that you cant make a logical arguement...
If someone's going to laugh in my face and tell me that I can't make a logical argument, then I'm going to want a little more backup for that claim than hooting derision alone.
And no more can you prove that you DO have a relationship with your deity - so again, it just came across as astoundingly arrogant.
Saraswati
22-03-2006, 14:42
[QUOTE=chellegoth]
Pippy, can you see why athiests don't get any type of religion? Because to me the bible soundss like the same type of thing as the scientology idea.
QUOTE]
Actually, after I posted that, I was telling my DH all about the wacky story of Xenu and the scientologists, and as I spoke, I realised it's really no more far fetched than the story of Adam and Eve. Just less well-known. So yep, I understand why all religions can seem absurd! And I hope I didn't offend any scientologists out there... my apologies to Tom and Katie. And James Packer. :D
Ffrenchknickers
22-03-2006, 14:43
nd no more can you prove that you DO have a relationship with your deity
I know that, totally, and that is why this arguement is pointless:)
Peace Mr N. I dont like arguing:(
It was me who said that, and I maintain that to be a fact. I was not intending it to be condescending, merely stating that there is no real arguement here if one hasnt experienced what the other person has. No one will ever be able to take away the realtionship wth God that I have because He is bigger than any person. It is not a put down at all....I have said plenty of times that I cant judge anyone for not being a Christian because they are coming from a different experience than me...I am not saying anyone is any less than me because they havent experienced it, I thought I made that clear....I really did.
It makes sense to.....I have no idea what it is like to be blind/deaf/paralised/have brown hair because I have never been there. What I was getting at was that no matter what anyone says, it will not change my relationship with God, I dont believe it can be put up against any human reasoning, no matter how intelligent one claims to be.
No one can argue that I dont have a relationship with God, no one can prove that I dont, so the arguement is pointless. That is what I meant. :)
Great post Ffrenchie :thumbsup:
Ana Gram
22-03-2006, 15:27
It was me who said that, and I maintain that to be a fact. I was not intending it to be condescending, merely stating that there is no real arguement here if one hasnt experienced what the other person has. No one will ever be able to take away the realtionship wth God that I have because He is bigger than any person. It is not a put down at all....I have said plenty of times that I cant judge anyone for not being a Christian because they are coming from a different experience than me...I am not saying anyone is any less than me because they havent experienced it, I thought I made that clear....I really did.
It makes sense to.....I have no idea what it is like to be blind/deaf/paralised/have brown hair because I have never been there. What I was getting at was that no matter what anyone says, it will not change my relationship with God, I dont believe it can be put up against any human reasoning, no matter how intelligent one claims to be.
No one can argue that I dont have a relationship with God, no one can prove that I dont, so the arguement is pointless. That is what I meant. :)
You aren't the only to ever say it and that's fine. My point was that you don't mean to be condecending and I think much of the arguement in this thread doesn't mean to be condecending. Just sometimes it comes out that way. On both sides, it does sometimes come down to questioning someones intellegence and I don't think there is really a way around that.
Ffrenchknickers
22-03-2006, 17:23
Thanks Coops and Chelle:)
I can understand what you're saying Chelle, totally:) I just wanted to let you guys know that I really didn't intend it to come across in that way. Honestly, honestly, honestly lol. Thanks for being so respectful in your reply:thumbsup:
I think that on the whole most people have remained fairly rational on this thread so far which is great - its can be such a heated topic! I sure hope it stays that way.
shinebrite
22-03-2006, 18:12
I just heard on triple J that there is a guy who used to be a Muslim but converted to a Christian overseas who is gonna die if he doesnt convert back to being a Muslim! I cant get over that! I mean do u hear of Christians who want to kill someone who has falllen away from God???
I dont get it? Is there any Muslims who can explain this and why in other countries they do that??? I dont want to start a debate Im just SO upset that this innocent guy is gonna die cause he has chosen a different beleif!
It makes me cry I feel SO sorry for that guy! We live in such a lucky county so much that we can have our own veiws and beleifs... sometimes I think we take it for granted.... :crying:
alicesmum
22-03-2006, 18:24
No SB - you don't hear of Christians who do this. Thank goodness!
Once upon a time maybe, but not anymore!!!
It is indeed very sad (i hope something saves him), but let's not get separatist here. You also don't hear of Buddhists doing this either, or Hindus or Jains or Taoists. In fact, I have never heard of these folk doing this in all of human history.
On another topic.... this is a long post. Apologies.
I just wanted to share a poem i recently received from someone whose advice i asked about being criticised (however subtly) for your beliefs or lack thereof.
The poem is called "To Let Go" and I thought it is something we could all remember when we feel our emotional buttons being pushed by talk of religion (or birth or breastfeeding or circumcision or........!!!) ;)
First is my post (written in regards to conversations i have had in recent times with people i know at uni, chats on here, and bumping into an old school friend who has been "born again"). The poem that follows was part of her advice to me (i.e., to "let go"!!!).
See what you think of it! (You might find it soppy Mr Noodle/Chelle -- hehe :) -- but I get substantially more upset and sensitive about some things than you do i suspect....wish I didn't!!!):
------
What can i do (in my own mind) about self-righteous Christians who claim that the only true and virtuous path is the Christian one. That if i don't "accept jesus as my saviour" then i will burn in hell! Christians who openly say they think other religions/spiritual paths are the work of Satan :eek: I have tried saying that... "Well... i grew up Christian and that i have looked into it in my adulthood as well (through reading the bible, which I sometimes still do, and going to church services, though not recently). But the Christian teachings have never really "done it" for me in the way they do it for some people. (Buddhist teachings, on the other hand, spoke to me in a major way). And it's not like I can help that!!! It’s just how it is. How can i genuinely (as has been suggested to me) "ask God to show me He exists" if I deeply don't believe that there is an external supernatural rewarding-and-punishing deity in the sky (so to speak)! I actually reckon I have "experienced God" while on meditation retreats, in the way described by the Christian mystics. But that is not what they (some fundamentalist Christians) are talking about. They don't agree that "God" is the experience of oneness with the universe, or the falling away of ego and a sense of connectedness taking its place. To them, He is "real", like a big unseen daddy looking over us, waiting to welcome us into heaven if we accept Him! Hmmmm....sorry, but that doesn't do it for me. And I can't help that. I am not them! And sometimes you're made to feel ashamed for being in this ignorant category. Yet I feel decidedly less ignorant since finding the Dharma (Buddhist teachings) than I ever did before. Something led me down this path that has made my life so much more meaningful and peaceful. According to some Christians however, it wasn’t God that did this for me, so it must have been the Devil.:confused:
Anyway, my problem really is: what can I say or (better yet) how can I not be bothered by the opinions of people who refuse to accept that there are other paths, which are truer, more befitting and more transformative for other people????
-----
TO LET GO
To let go...
…Doesn't mean to stop caring.
It means I can't do it for someone else.
…Is not to cut myself off,
but to realise I can't control another.
....Is not to enable,
but to allow learning from natural consequences.
…Is to admit powerlessness,
which means the outcome is not in my hands.
....Is not to try to change or blame another,
I can only change myself.
…Is not to care for,
but to care about.
....Is not to fix,
but to be supportive.
…Is not to judge,
but to allow another to be a human being.
....Is not to be in the middle arranging all the outcomes,
but to allow others to effect their own outcomes.
…Is not to be protective,
but to permit another to face reality.
....Is not to deny, but to accept.
…Is not to nag, scold, or argue,
but to search out my own shortcomings and to correct them.
....Is not to adjust everything to my desires,
but to take each day as it comes, and to cherish the moment.
…Is not to criticise or regulate anyone,
but to try to become the best I can be.
....Is not to regret the past,
but to grow and live for the future.
…Is to fear less and to love more.
And I do "LOVE YOU"
So I will..."LET YOU GO"...
(p.s. the poem is actually about not controlling your teenager apparently, hence the bit at the end!!!)
Ana Gram
22-03-2006, 18:38
Just need to post this before spending 10 minutes reading Alicesmum's post !!!
Christianity has a loooong history of persecution, there were murdering witches and heretics for years.
Saraswati
22-03-2006, 20:00
I actually reckon I have "experienced God" while on meditation retreats, in the way described by the Christian mystics. But that is not what they (some fundamentalist Christians) are talking about. They don't agree that "God" is the experience of oneness with the universe, or the falling away of ego and a sense of connectedness taking its place. To them, He is "real", like a big unseen daddy looking over us, waiting to welcome us into heaven if we accept Him! Devil.:confused: [/FONT]
Sometimes I read your threads and swear that they could've been written by me! I will have to stick that poem on my bathroom wall (the wall's getting crowded now) because I too really need to stop feeling such angst towards my religious friends / relatives who don't think twice about scoffing at my beliefs, and disregarding my spiritual experiences (they're not valid, apparently, because they don't include visions of Jesus), even though I wouldn't dare disrespect theirs. It often feels akin to racism, iykwim. I actually feel discriminated against sometimes.
What annoys me the most though, is the amount of time I spend feeling this irritation and obsessing over how screwed it is. I need to LET GO!! So thanks for the poem Alice'sMum. :yelclap:
What about the notion that some people are comfortable with black and white rather than shades of grey. If they have a God then he/she (usually he) will reflect that. I have found (maybe) that that oneness with the universe, or a greater energy fits with people that see and are comfortable with shades of grey.
or maybe complete nonsense.
I liked your poem Alicesmum - to me it says that you are responsible for what you think yourself only, therefore be comfortable, and respect,other people having different and conflicting opinions.
shinebrite
22-03-2006, 20:35
Christianity has a loooong history of persecution, there were murdering witches and heretics for years.
Yes Joan of Arc was one of the MANY that were killed and she heard Gods voice, it wasnt "christianity" unfortunatly it was Catholasism (sp?) if you look at the stories... Even the pharasees in the bible persecuted Jesus.
The pharasees in the bible were more the "religious" type of people in the bible they had rules....So I think u can understand why "US" christians dont like to be called "religious"
But as i said I didnt want to start a debate about it I just wanted to Know if why its so much more popular these days for Muslims to do this? I mean if I were to go to say islam and preach the bible why would i get my head cut off like SO many other christians recently have
I am just curios of there thoughts on the matter as i dont really know any muslims to ask such a question????
Ana Gram
22-03-2006, 21:03
Sorry but I not sure what you are getting at. Who are the "so many" christians getting their heads cut off?
The persecution of pagans, witches and heretics was definately not confined to the Roman Catholic Church. And Joan of Arc was actually catholic and was killed by the English ,who were also catholic at that stage I think, because they found her to be a threat to them. Not because of her religion.
Why don't you have a look on the internet as I am sure there are plenty of sites that will tell you more about islam as I don't actually think there are any muslims on this site. Well none that have entered into the religious debate.
Shinebrite, you are right, thousands of Christians are indeed still persecuted for their beliefs to this day, but im sure many other people are as well, and i think the point Chelle was making is that Christians (which, yes Catholisicm is a Christian religion) have also done their fair share of persecuting over the yrs, in all sorts of horrible ways, unfortunatley we do not have a shameless history :(
Ffrenchknickers
22-03-2006, 21:21
Gee, I've seen that poem somewhere before Alicesmum:detective: ;)
Ana Gram
22-03-2006, 21:28
Shinebrite, you are right, thousands of Christians are indeed still persecuted for their beliefs to this day, but im sure many other people are as well, and i think the point Chelle was making is that Christians (which, yes Catholisicm is a Christian religion) have also done their fair share of persecuting over the yrs, in all sorts of horrible ways, unfortunatley we do not have a shameless history :(
I think it would be easier for me to just tell you my long winded thoughts and let you interpret them for me, you say it so much better!
shinebrite
22-03-2006, 21:33
Chelle - I have a book that has SO many stories about people getting there heads cut off and getting killed on the spot in SO many countries dating from the year 2000 and they are all factual.
I thought Joan of Arc was killed because they thought she was a witch cause she heard God voice? thats what I did a Essay on at school anyway cause I was SO interested in that kinda stuff...
The "old" times of Catholics vs Prodestants were horrible.. I think that was in the 1600's or something many ppl were killed cause of ANYTHING and I think Im So shocked it still happens today... its pretty sad!
But anyway.. its kinda off topic isnt it?? I was just bored and no one is on MSN atm so no one to talk to....
My last post kinda didnt make sense... pregie brains I think :o and i cant b bothered to explain what I meant! :laughing:
Ana Gram
22-03-2006, 21:46
Chelle - I have a book that has SO many stories about people getting there heads cut off and getting killed on the spot in SO many countries dating from the year 2000 and they are all factual.
I thought Joan of Arc was killed because they thought she was a witch cause she heard God voice? thats what I did a Essay on at school anyway cause I was SO interested in that kinda stuff...
The "old" times of Catholics vs Prodestants were horrible.. I think that was in the 1600's or something many ppl were killed cause of ANYTHING and I think Im So shocked it still happens today... its pretty sad!
I would be interested to see the books you have and who published them, do you have a link?
Joan of Arc was accused of heresy and witchcraft by the English because she was a threat to them. In those times, fair trials were unheard of and women were usually unable to speak in court so was unable to defend herself. It's pretty long and involved though and I don't want us to get too far off track!
I don't think it is really old times with religious battles. Look at the Irish. A lot of wars have been fought based upon religion and some have involved Christianity. I think it is hard for us to grasp something like this as Australian as we don't live it everyday like some other countries.
Ffrenchknickers
22-03-2006, 21:51
I really dont know alot about this stuff.....but do you think alot of religious wars and wrongs are more common/apparent in countries where there is no separation of church and state?
shinebrite
22-03-2006, 21:51
I got it from the enxyclopedia a few yrs ago!
and i do agree bout the not understanding it living in OZ like I said b4 I recon we take living here for granted sometimes....not for granted but u know what i mean
I really dont know alot about this stuff.....but do you think alot of religious wars and wrongs are more common/apparent in countries where there is no separation of church and state?
yup, i think you are right ffrenchie, these places always seems to be where the problems lie.
Ffrenchknickers
22-03-2006, 22:03
Hmmmmm, yeah its just a thought I had. I guess the answer is pretty obvious really.
Just seems like, places where people are Catholic or protestant or Chistian by default without actually wanting to be or accepting it would be more prone to dong "un-Christian like things" in the name of religion or whatever becuase of a lack of understanding or even interest in being a Christian. (Thats not to say that people who DO want to be Christians cant do un Christianlike things! Argh, you know what I mean!!!:rolleyes: ) Does that make sense?? As I said, I dont really know mch about this stuff, and, yeah, i think you're right Chelle about us being very lucky and sheltered here in Australia.
Hmmmm, I guess I am all for separation of church and state then:thumbsup:
I really dont know alot about this stuff.....but do you think alot of religious wars and wrongs are more common/apparent in countries where there is no separation of church and state?
I dont know, communism was an atheist ideology, and that has involved dictators and wars and mass murders......look at stalin.....
.....look at the current state of China, whereby the majority of baby girls are ritually murdered after birth - atrocities occuring in an atheist country.
Ideologys are what create these troubles in the world, and when people try to impose their ideology on the masses, whether the ideology involves a belief in a divine being or not, that is where these hideous things occur.
I think it comes down to people and free will, which is something most religious types and atheists will agree on, that we are responsible for our own choices.
I see that there are different types of people. And I will use the touching the elephant analogy to explain (you know, where 3 blind men come across an elephant and go away with differing beliefs - 1 thinks the elephant is like a long snake, as he felt the trunk, another thinks the elephant is like a tree stump, as he felt the leg, and the 3rd thinks the elephant is smooth with a sharp point, as he felt the tusk). Well I think there is a 4th and a 5th blind man - the 4th was sceptical about the existence of the elephant, so didnt bother to go and find it with the others, and the 5th blind man felt the elephant, but concluded that he was only experiencing just a small part of a larger whole, so came away with no conclusion except that the elephant is so expansive that there is no way he could truly try to define it.
I think I fall into that 5th camp. I always say " the whole defines the part, the part can never define the whole". So although I am aware of 'something', I would never dream of believing that I know what that something is.
We have limited perception, and I am sceptical of anyone who trys to tell me that they 'know' God or that they 'know' there is no God, as we are all merely small fragments of a greater whole, so it is ridiculous for anyone to say they have a definition of that greater whole......
I am a spiritual person, but I believe that is personal, as I can only percieve from my personal facet of existence that I sit on, and an atheist sits on their facet of existence perceiving their fraction of existence, and who am I to judge if they dont have any spiritual experience! Just as a christian percieves Jesus from their facet, a hindu percieves all the multiple aspects of Brahma, and a muslim percieves Mohammed being the authority on their God-fearing lifestyle.... and so on.....
So I say believe what you want, and as long as no one tries to impose their beliefs on me, or tries to abuse or kill innocent people in the name of those beliefs, then each to their own I say.....
Ana Gram
22-03-2006, 22:57
I wouldn't say China was an atheist country, they don't have a state religion but at one of the last counts they had 7 million Christians, 14 million Muslims and a lot of Buddists and Taoists.
Is there actually a country that could claim to be an athiest country? I'll start packing :D
Ffrenchknickers
22-03-2006, 23:02
Is there actually a country that could claim to be an athiest country? I'll start packing
LOL, actually, I've never thought of any country as being an atheist country....hmmmmm. I guess a whole country being classed as anything whether it be Muslim, Christian, Jew, Atheist, Buddhist just seems weird and wrong to me.
Ffrenchknickers
22-03-2006, 23:07
Actually I would have thought there would be more Taoists and Buddhists in China
Ffrenchknickers
22-03-2006, 23:07
OH, lol, thats what you just said:o :o
Mister Noodle
23-03-2006, 00:08
Hmm.
Becca, this hyper-inclusiveness thing is all very well, but...
Your 'something', your whole of which everyone's experience is but a part... naturally excludes the atheist/materialist position. It's a sophisticated backdoor through which you mandate the existence of some[i] kind of spiritual whatsit, be that a god or whatever you care to call it.
It actually leaves no possibility for "This is it. What you see is all there is. There is nothing more - all you get is the parts" - so it's actually not as inclusive as it looks. Theists and 'spiritual' people of whatever stripe get to be partially right, but the atheist position is completely undercut.
To use your analogy, the atheist points out that the other blind men are actually having a grope of [i]themselves - which is completely and utterly incompatible with "the elephant is something amazing and beyond all of us, but we can't know much about it".
Personally, I don't mind what you think - but I think you need to be careful that you don't trap yourself in a false belief that you're including all the options equally.
Mister Noodle
23-03-2006, 00:13
Ooh. And I'd forgotten about this. It's a lovely little essay on what it really feels like to be an atheist. I wish I could write like this guy:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/11/15/12016/649
alicesmum
23-03-2006, 08:41
will have a look now at your link mr N.
Ffenchstar - is that poem a Christian one? Where have you seen it?
Also, I think there are a few examples of coutries whic are exclusievely (or almost exlusively) one religion aren't there? This is usally because they are geographically or socially isolated, such as Bhutan (which is all Buddhist) and wouldn't there be countries like Saudi that are almost all Moslem? Just curious is all.;) There must be a few examples. (Diversity is a good thing though, I must agree!!!!)
Also, there aren't that many buddhists in China. As far as I know, most Chinese follow their own indigenous religion which includes ancestor worhsip and is aligned with Taoism to some extent (chi, harmony with nature etc). And yes, there are large numbers of Christians and Muslims in China too (A Mormon aquaintence is over there right now trying to convert! :rolleyes: ). But the folk who kill baby girls come from all religious and non-religious backgrounds. As Ffrenchie said, people of all faiths and backgrounds can do unspeakable things. we all agree on that one. However, the Chinese government, which has done much worse, is not religious at all. They are still communist basically.
Interestingly, the only country i know of where "church" and state were combined and it worked well was Tibet (until 1959 of course), as the spritual tradition there was so clear about ethical conduct and the Dalai Lama, as we know, was pretty committed to his values and to his people. The fact that it worked well there, where usually this "faith and state" thing doesn't work, is one reason there has been such interest in Tibet and Tibetan culture in the West I suspect.
Shinebrite - a quick question: would you have started a thread to pray for someone you heard about who had converted from Islam to, say, Hinduism and was going to be killed for it? Just wondering why Christians sometimes imply that fellow Christians are more worthy of being prayed for/supported. (I am asking that sincerely, not meant to sound critical :p.
I'd just like to put my 2 cents in. Firstly, this is an extremely long thread and i haven't read it all so forgive me if i'm repeating others' sentiments, or indeed if i'm taking this off the current track.
I'm an atheist and i'm very happy and content with my life. I have found (and this is just in my experience ok?) that athiests tend to be the most understanding of other people's beliefs and are quite content to live their life without forcing their beliefs on others. Here's an example:
When i was younger (just out of high school) i spent a lot of time with my best friend (at the time) who is a Christian. She knew i was an atheist and would always make comments about me accepting god etc. She also knew of an incident that occured when i was 14 that i refused to talk about and it upset her that i wouldn't discuss it with her. One day, as we were driving, she stopped the car, turned to me and said "I don't understand why you can't talk to me about your problems, i think it's time for you to meet my best friend and accept Jesus into your heart" Well, i didn't take that very well because i was furious! I got out of the car, walked home and didn't talk to her for a couple of weeks. When we did get together again this is how i explained it to her - "You are a Christian, that is your religion and i repect that, i am an Athiest, that is my religion and i expect you to respect that also" She finally understood that she didn't need to "save" me as i had no need of being saved. We're still good friends now and we still repect each other's beliefs.
Another thing that i find interesting is that several people have said to me that you have to believe in Heaven in order to go there. So, people who believe in Heaven and Hell go to one of those places when they die, but what if you don't believe? How can you go to a place that you don't believe exists? So that in itself proves to me that us athiests don't need to be "saved" as it doesn't make a difference, i believe there is nothing after death and so that's exactly what will happen! (if you follow what i'm trying to say)
I'm afraid i don't express myself as eloquently or intelligently as Ffrenchie or Mr Noodle but i hope i at least made myself understood.
Shinebrite - a quick question: would you have started a thread to pray for someone you heard about who had converted from Islam to, say, Hinduism and was going to be killed for it? Just wondering why Christians sometimes imply that fellow Christians are more worthy of being prayed for/supported. (I am asking that sincerely, not meant to sound critical :p.
I imagine she would, Well I would anyway, lol, I dont know of any Christians that 'sometimes imply' that other Christians are more worthy of pray and support.
We get in trouble when we do pray for non christians and then we get in trouble when we dont! :rolleyes: ;)
MonkeyMum05
23-03-2006, 09:00
Mr Noodle, I read the essay on atheism... an interesting read.
Is that also how you feel?
I found it to be a bit extreme... in that not all 'Santists' push their beliefs... and not everyone who isn't atheist is a 'Santist'.
Some of us don't accept christianity and 'God', but aren't atheist... or even agnostic? Maybe...?
alicesmum
23-03-2006, 09:01
there's no "getting in trouble" here Erin :p but I know what you are saying ;)
it was a genuine question. i have heard many ppl on this site and other sites lament (quite understandably, as I do) about Christian folk getting persecuted in other countries around the world. Why single them out though? Tonnes of ppl get persecuted for their religious beliefs (look at the Buddhists in China, the Shee-ites (sp?) in Iraq, etc).
shinebrite
23-03-2006, 09:09
Alicesmum... I dont usually start threads cause im too shy but I felt the need cause I thought it was SUCH a cruel act for someone to die "just because" they changed there beleif!
I think I was also shocked that they had it on Triple J too which was what prompted me. I pray about alot of things and I think if I heard something as equally worse I would of posted it so ppl could pray for that person.
I just feel SO sorry for this guy my heart aches for him cause he is getting killed for going against the Karahn (sp?) And if I had heard it vice verca I would of asked pppl to pray cause it STILL would of been a wrongful act!
NO ONE should have to die for such a thing.. I wish i could find out more on the net about it but Im abit clueless...
Chelle were u asking before about where I got info about Joan of Arc or the killings from yr 2000??? (bimbo moment) for joan of Arc it was the encyclopedia as I said b4 but for the other it was a book called Jesus Freaks, There is one HORRIBLE story right at the front about a 11yr old christian kid getting killed in Nth Korea by the corrupt Government they have he was killed for saying "Jesus" I think which is pretty sad and the kids friend is alive today (bout 5 yrs older) and tells the story, he also transports bibles over the south to north Korea border which is illegal...
We live in such a lucky country that we can have our own opinions
Mister Noodle
23-03-2006, 09:20
MM, granted, the essay is by an american - things aren't so bad here in oz.
It does capture the utter bewilderment, however. Take the moment of utter WTFness you experience on realising that scientologists *actually literally* believe the xenu story, multiply it by the number of religions in the world, and then live in it every single day...
I have lots of friends in the US, though - many of them in the bible belt - and trust me, what he's describing is mild indeed.
alicesmum
23-03-2006, 09:23
i agree with you SB. It is absolutely awful and I hope this kind of thing stops one day. And we are very very fortunate to live in Oz!
I assume you feel equally sad for the families who were slaughtered in Tibet for having buddhist shrines in their homes. they are still not allowed to practise their customs and traditions the way they want to. pls keep them in your prayers as well.
shinebrite
23-03-2006, 11:11
i agree with you SB. It is absolutely awful and I hope this kind of thing stops one day. And we are very very fortunate to live in Oz!
I assume you feel equally sad for the families who were slaughtered in Tibet for having buddhist shrines in their homes. they are still not allowed to practise their customs and traditions the way they want to. pls keep them in your prayers as well.
I think you'd be surprised at how many things I keep in my prayers! I didnt realsie tho about those families in Tibet, its pretty sad and un humane... some governments are pretty corrupt that way and it kinda sux!
Ffrenchknickers
23-03-2006, 11:18
For goodness sakes Rachel. Your biggest beef with Christianity is about us being judgemental and that we're always telling people that they are wrong. Every post you make contains sly little remarks about how wrong Christianity is. Of course, I feel absolutely terrible (and so would many other Chrisitans that I know - and I am sure Shinebrite) about ANY human being being treated in such an appaling way. To insinuate otherwise is extremely rude and judgemental if you ask me. To not care about people from all walks of life GOES AGAINST CHRISTIAN teaching.:banghead:
I have seen you post on other forums about chats we have had over here. You claim that Christians are always trying to convert you and tell you you are going to hell. I would love you to direct me to any post where this has occured. Your posts are full of judgements about Christians and the way we treat people. You claim that as a Buddhist, you are open to all religions and all beliefs but the impression I get is that it couldnt be further from the truth. You are doing the exact things that annoy you about Christianity.
I have bitten my tongue until now but I needed to say something after your recent posts.
Ffrenchknickers
23-03-2006, 11:20
imagine she would, Well I would anyway, lol, I dont know of any Christians that 'sometimes imply' that other Christians are more worthy of pray and support.
We get in trouble when we do pray for non christians and then we get in trouble when we dont!
I meant to say, well said Erin:)
I think you'd be surprised at how many things I keep in my prayers!
:thumbsup:
shinebrite
23-03-2006, 11:21
Id have to back you up there frenchstar! :thumbsup: Please dont be so jugmental racheal and i think we will all get along....
Ffenchstar - is that poem a Christian one? Where have you seen it?
.
I think she was referring to the other stuff you wrote;)
Why is that you seem to have so many 'self righteous christians' following you around all the time trying to convert you? I dont claim that you are a self righteous Buddhist' simply because you chose to share you thoughts and feelings on the topic, you are simply sharing what you believe in, i dont take it to mean you are trying to convert me, why do you then feel that that is what Christians are trying to do when they talk of what they believe in?
Sorry, back tracking a bit i know, but it has been plaguing me a bit :o
alicesmum
23-03-2006, 11:41
just to clear the 'self-righteous' christian thing up. it is not folk on this site i was refering to here. my experiences on bubhub with everyone have been pretty pleasant and fulfilling and that is why i am still here! :) but ppl i have come across at uni over the last few years come to mind (i was actually asked whether I cared that, by not embracing the gospels, I am doomed, which makes me wonder whether other folk are thinking this as well...anyway, that's mind-reading which is never a helpful tactic :rolleyes: ). also, recently at a party, i ran into an old aquaintence from school who had more than a thing to say about my chosen path and non-christians in general, which has really bothered me (call me over-senstive, my DH does!). so anyway, please don't take this personally. i have never called anyone on this site self-righteous because i haven't experienced anyone doing this to me (what this girl did)
however, having said that, it does get to me when people say that other spiritual paths are the work of Satan, only pleasing to the eye, ear and flesh, and that hell is the destination for non-Christians. can i please ask that people don't write such things on public forums in future where folk of all walks of life visit. i guess we are all capable of getting our knickers in a knot, however transcendent we would like to be. so i am truly sorry that i have!
i also apologise sincerely if any of my previous posts have come across jusdgementally. that was not the intention at all, but if it was the outcome, I humbly apologise. my questions were motivated by genuine interest.
please stay (virtual) friends with me guys!:o
[sneaking away now ..... ]
Ana Gram
23-03-2006, 11:54
Chelle were u asking before about where I got info about Joan of Arc or the killings from yr 2000??? (bimbo moment) for joan of Arc it was the encyclopedia as I said b4 but for the other it was a book called Jesus Freaks, There is one HORRIBLE story right at the front about a 11yr old christian kid getting killed in Nth Korea by the corrupt Government they have he was killed for saying "Jesus" I think which is pretty sad and the kids friend is alive today (bout 5 yrs older) and tells the story, he also transports bibles over the south to north Korea border which is illegal...
I've had a look at the Jesus Freaks website and have had a bit of a read....... Interesting. But if you are really interested in the plight of people over history due to religious vilification from either being religious or not, try expanding your reading. Go to the library and grab some history books. Witch burnings in Europe, the religious history of Tibet, The Crusades. The encyclopedia is a good reference but doesn't tend to go into the story in great detail as they don't have a lot of space.
alicesmum
23-03-2006, 11:58
I think she was referring to the other stuff you wrote;)
Why is that you seem to have so many 'self righteous christians' following you around all the time trying to convert you?
Erin, Ffrenchie WAS actually refering to the poem. anyway, i googled it and found it on a lot of christian web-sites. it is a great peom, as are lots of the christian teachings which i often keep in my heart. i have often commented on the beautiful teachings of christianity, but i am not alone in finding any sort of preaching (to non-christians) a little self-righteous. i know you think it is too. however, i don't think anyone on here has preached at non-christians, as mentioned in my previous post. and i never suggested that they had. this is an open discussion about religion and aetheism, so felt i could express my feelings about being bothered by it but also of trying to let it go. maybe i shouldn't have though!
also, i don't have "so many self-righteous christians following me around trying to convert me" (where did i say that???) anymore than anyone else on here has described. but even a couple of experiences can stay with you, as others on here have described.
Saraswati
23-03-2006, 12:01
Of course, I feel absolutely terrible (and so would many other Chrisitans that I know - and I am sure Shinebrite) about ANY human being being treated in such an appaling way. To insinuate otherwise is extremely rude and judgemental if you ask me. To not care about people from all walks of life GOES AGAINST CHRISTIAN teaching.:banghead:
Maybe the point Alicesmum was trying to make could be compared to how we in the western world freak out when a handful of anglos are killed in the London bombings (or wherever) even though meanwhile there's millions of folk in Rwanda being slaughtered and tortured on a daily basis.
Just a thought - not trying to add fuel to the fire, and obviously all life is equally sacred, it's just that sometimes we aren't made aware of the biggest atrocities happening in countries where there isn't heaps of media attention.
shinebrite
23-03-2006, 12:05
I've had a look at the Jesus Freaks website and have had a bit of a read....... Interesting. But if you are really interested in the plight of people over history due to religious vilification from either being religious or not, try expanding your reading. Go to the library and grab some history books. Witch burnings in Europe, the religious history of Tibet, The Crusades. The encyclopedia is a good reference but doesn't tend to go into the story in great detail as they don't have a lot of space.
Yeah I will do... have you seen that movie with winona rider in it??? she was a witch in it?? and those Christians got hung in it too??? thats such a moving movie... cant reme,ber what it was called... it all breaks my heart... I think im a little soft these days...
Erin, Ffrenchie WAS actually refering to the poem. anyway, i googled it and found it on a lot of christian web-sites. it is a great peom, as are lots of the christian teachings which i often keep in my heart. i have often commented on the beautiful teachings of christianity, but i am not alone in finding any sort of preaching (to non-christians) a little self-righteous. i know you think it is too. however, i don't think anyone on here has preached at non-christians, as mentioned in my previous post. and i never suggested that they had. this is an open discussion about religion and aetheism, so felt i could express my feelings about being bothered by it but also of trying to let it go. maybe i shouldn't have though!
also, i don't have "so many self-righteous christians following me around trying to convert me" (where did i say that???) anymore than anyone else on here has described. but even a couple of experiences can stay with you, as others on here have described.
i know, my apologies, i too had seen that other thread, only i had never read the whole post, sorry about that.
anyway, im sorry as well if i got confused, i assumed (as im guessing so did ffrenchie) that you were referring to people here, and that you seemed to have christians regulary harassing you or something, thanks for clearing it up. :)
Yeah I will do... have you seen that movie with winona rider in it??? she was a witch in it?? and those Christians got hung in it too??? thats such a moving movie... cant reme,ber what it was called... it all breaks my heart... I think im a little soft these days...
it was a movie based on a great book called The Crucible, it described the events of the Salem witch hunts.
shinebrite
23-03-2006, 12:33
Yeah I BALLED my eyes out when they were on the hanging things saying the Lords prayer what courage something like THAT would of taken... Is it true???
Ffrenchknickers
23-03-2006, 12:45
Rachel thankyou for your post.
On the point of posting things such as religions being of the devil etc. I remember the threads you are talking about and (I can only speak for my own posts) have only ever answered questions in regards to these things, I have never ever risen up and said "All buddhists are of the devil, you;re going to hell!" See the difference? I have only ever even discussed these things becasue it has been asked of me, not becasue I wanted to go around pointing the finger at anyone. I am not going to lie when asked a question but will always state that it is my opinion. Maybe go back and take a look at some of those old threads. I recall, most of those type questions actually came from you. If you can point me in a direction where you think I have acted inappropriately then I would love to make it right:)
Maybe the point Alicesmum was trying to make could be compared to how we in the western world freak out when a handful of anglos are killed in the London bombings (or wherever) even though meanwhile there's millions of folk in Rwanda being slaughtered and tortured on a daily basis.
Just a thought - not trying to add fuel to the fire, and obviously all life is equally sacred, it's just that sometimes we aren't made aware of the biggest atrocities happening in countries where there isn't heaps of media attention.
The point you make Pippy, I couldnt agree with you more wholeheartedly, it is an issue very close to my heart, which is why we do all we can to support these people financially, physically and prayerfully. I cant stand the media for the way it portrays things. However, just becasue something is in the media, doesnt mean we shouldnt be concerned by it. There is so much hurt going on in the world that we dont know about, we can only pray about what we do know.
I dont see why it had to be a Christian vs nonChristian thing, because its not at all.
Ffrenchknickers
23-03-2006, 12:58
I'm afraid i don't express myself as eloquently or intelligently as Ffrenchie or Mr Noodle but i hope i at least made myself understood.
LOL Pukkers! You are always eloquent in your posts! Even at the back fence or in the chatter box LOL!:kiss:
alicesmum
23-03-2006, 13:13
Rachel thankyou for your post.
On the point of posting things such as religions being of the devil etc. I remember the threads you are talking about and (I can only speak for my own posts) have only ever answered questions in regards to these things, I have never ever risen up and said "All buddhists are of the devil, you;re going to hell!" See the difference? I have only ever even discussed these things becasue it has been asked of me, not becasue I wanted to go around pointing the finger at anyone. I am not going to lie when asked a question but will always state that it is my opinion. :)
thank you for yours. yes i agree with you and i very much see the difference. you are completely right. and you are 100% entitled to your opinion. and it is an opinion, as I have asked other christians who say they definitely don't believe other religions are the work of the devil.
had a very quick search, though i don't wish to rehash the past, but i would only like to suggest one small thing, and that is that warning others who are confused about their spirituality to be careful of things like buddhism or other paths because they are pleasing to the eye ear and flesh may not be appropriate here and does in fact suggest that such paths are the 'wrong' way to go about your life. i guess it is hard for christian followers though, as they are genuinely concerned for people's souls (i.e,. what will happen to them in the afterlife) so I can actually sympathise with or kinda understand why they would want to steer people away from other religions if they got the chance. it is a tricky issue. this issue genuinely interests me, not because i think i am right or that anyone is wrong (not at all!), but i find other people's views fascinating (which is why I am here). there is no judgement intended (and no right and wrong in my mind!).
anyway, that was a long time ago and i wish it didn't still bother me. i truly do! but i am letting it go! :) hehe. i would never warn someone about pursuing a christian path. in fact, i encourage any spiritual inquiry. i find it harder to understand why ppl have zero interest in spiritual matters :) if someone asked for my advice, then it would only be to say that they test things out for themselves and that if they find truth in it and if it helps them be a more compassionate, peaceful person, then that is what they should pursue for now.
anyways.... thesis to write......... bubhub addiction to curb :p
Ana Gram
23-03-2006, 13:38
Yeah I BALLED my eyes out when they were on the hanging things saying the Lords prayer what courage something like THAT would of taken... Is it true???
Yes the movie and book were based on true events. The part Winona Ryder played was not that of the accused witch, but the accuser. The is a plausable theory that a rye ergot blight was a contributing factor with not only the Salem Witch Trials but much of the witch hunting craze in Europe. Ergot is one of the ingredients in LSD or acid and can cause hallucinations, colvultions and other symptoms described by the girls of the Salem Witch Trials. Have a read of the various Inquistions and you will see some truely horrific events.
shinebrite
23-03-2006, 13:48
Yes the movie and book were based on true events. The part Winona Ryder played was not that of the accused witch, but the accuser. The is a plausable theory that a rye ergot blight was a contributing factor with not only the Salem Witch Trials but much of the witch hunting craze in Europe. Ergot is one of the ingredients in LSD or acid and can cause hallucinations, colvultions and other symptoms described by the girls of the Salem Witch Trials. Have a read of the various Inquistions and you will see some truely horrific events.
:eek: Sounds utterly frightening!! and interesting!!!!
Ana Gram
23-03-2006, 14:34
You have probably heard the phrase " Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" , don't know what part of the bible it is from or which version - Frenchie help me out here
They took that quote a tad too far I'm afraid.
shinebrite
23-03-2006, 14:35
You have probably heard the phrase " Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" , don't know what part of the bible it is from or which version - Frenchie help me out here
They took that quote a tad too far I'm afraid.
mmm I will google it but I dont know if Ive seen it when Ive read the bible...????
shinebrite
23-03-2006, 14:42
http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=witch&qs_version=31
this link leads to the search I did and it actually doesnt talk about "witches" only witchcraft.
Witchcraft in the bible actually refers to other things other than tarrot, spells etc i think its how its translated. cause Not obeying you parents in the bible can actually be called "witchcraft" but I think as i said its how its translated??? IYKWIM
Ana Gram
23-03-2006, 14:42
It is from Exodus 22:18. I have no idea what that means though.
shinebrite
23-03-2006, 14:51
Yeah I found it Im trying to understand what it means the OT is very criptical...
Mister Noodle
23-03-2006, 15:05
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/intro.html
All KINDS of good stuff in there...
Notchalk
23-03-2006, 16:16
The is a plausable theory that a rye ergot blight was a contributing factor with not only the Salem Witch Trials but much of the witch hunting craze in Europe. Ergot is one of the ingredients in LSD or acid and can cause hallucinations, colvultions and other symptoms described by the girls of the Salem Witch Trials. Have a read of the various Inquistions and you will see some truely horrific events.
Chelle (and others), did you know that Midwives were considered witches because of their use of Ergot to stop post partum haemorrhage? They too were killed for practicing their 'craft'. The idea that Midwives are evil/alternative has sorta suck around a bit - talk to any anaesthetist or obstetrician! ;) Ergot is still used today (Ergometrine and in Syntometrine, used in 3rd stage labour) for prevention of PPH and in larger doses, treatment.
Jo
shinebrite
23-03-2006, 16:22
what is ergot?
Ffrenchknickers
23-03-2006, 16:25
Just a herb or something isnt it? Ergometrine being the artificial version?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergot
Ffrenchknickers
23-03-2006, 16:25
Oh ,lol, maybe its a fungus.....mmm mmmm:D
Chelle (and others), did you know that Midwives were considered witches because of their use of Ergot to stop post partum haemorrhage? They too were killed for practicing their 'craft'. The idea that Midwives are evil/alternative has sorta suck around a bit - talk to any anaesthetist or obstetrician! ;) Ergot is still used today (Ergometrine and in Syntometrine, used in 3rd stage labour) for prevention of PPH and in larger doses, treatment.
Jo
yup, i did know this :)
lots of woman healer/midwives were considered to be witches, just another way to keep woman down:rolleyes:
To use your analogy, the atheist points out that the other blind men are actually having a grope of themselves - which is completely and utterly incompatible with "the elephant is something amazing and beyond all of us, but we can't know much about it".
Personally, I don't mind what you think - but I think you need to be careful that you don't trap yourself in a false belief that you're including all the options equally.
To me the atheist is the one groping at themselves, as they view their personal perspective as the most superior perspective in the universe, therefore believing that they have a 'godlike' authority on all of existence, and all others must bow to their 'superior' knowledge....as can be seen by your view that spiritual people are inferior to atheists.
I think it is totally arrogant to say to those who have had spiritual experiences that they just have vivid imaginations or are 'groping at themselves', as the 'spiritual' person could just view you as merely spiritually deficiant..... in the analogy i used, all the people are *blind*, from what you have stated I can see that the blind atheist just assumes that there is no such thing as sight, and assumes, from his own small perspective of the world, what it is that they truly must be experiencing.
in the same way I wouldnt ask a blind man to explain the colours of the rainbow to me, I would never expect an atheist to understand a spiritual experience.....athiests are just lacking in that arena, I dont personally think it's their fault, they are just made that way. They have other talents they should be proud of :yelclap:
I dont personally believe in the eternal damnation ****, so please dont take the above as an insult from me.......I HONESTLY dont care what anyone believes.......but I do get p!ssed off when people try to patronise others for their beliefs. Sometimes I find that atheists more annoyingly missionize their beliefs to me than do the christian missionaries I reject! If you feel the need to impose your ideas on someone, and tell someone that their ideas are inferior to your own, that you have seen the light of truth and you need to inflict that 'light' on others, then that is missionizing in my book....yeek :barf:
so, until you've walked in my shoes, please dont assume you know where I've been and what I've experienced......and I will afford you, and the rest of the world population, that same courtesy, as I personally dont believe I'm an authority on what is out there or what is not out there, but for some reason mr noodle, you think you are that authority.
ps. The USSR was an atheist country, in so far as the dictators that ran the show were atheist, and imposed their atheist beliefs on everyone, hideously persecuting religious people. The Russian Jews could tell you some hideous stories of the persecution they suffered at the hands of atheists, so really, I totally stand by what I said that it is ideology that creates these atrocious environments, and religion or non-religion can be the basis for the political ideology. The countries with least atrocities are the democracies where you are free to believe what you choose......
Ffrenchknickers
23-03-2006, 16:46
Becca74.......:)
gosh, I just realised how incredibly in-ya-face my post was - if you'd met me in real life you'd be shocked that someone like me can come out with such in-ya-face stuff....
Please dont anyone be offended, religious/spiritual/atheist, I honestly in my heart of hearts really think people should follow their own paths, and I totally respect other peoples convictions....half my family is christian and half my family is Jewish, and to be honest, neither of them have really ever tried to missionize me and they are all truly beautiful people who do alot of good, and I really wish them all well in their spiritual endeavours! so I know the majority of religious types keep their beliefs to themselves! But I have had a few experiences of persistent missionaries, and well, it feels like this :banghead: , so I try to avoid these personalities at all costs ;) And I'm sorry, I've been harassed by atheists in the past (though again, the majority of atheists I know also keep their beliefs personal, it was just the experience of these particular people I knew) and I honestly could not see the difference between them and the JW's that come a-knockin' at the door.....
maybe it is my preg hormones bringing out the defensive lioness in me..... group hug anyone??? :hugs: :hugs:
Ana Gram
23-03-2006, 17:18
The idea that Midwives are evil/alternative has sorta suck around a bit - talk to any anaesthetist or obstetrician! ;)
Yep did know that. The vast majority of people tried for witchcraft had absolutley nothing to do with witchcraft at all. Sometime it was just old women who were accused simply because they were old!
I had one of those evil midwives so best I don't say anything about them ;)
shinebrite
23-03-2006, 17:19
Becca group hugs!!! :hugs: very well said!
Ana Gram
23-03-2006, 17:26
The USSR was an atheist country, in so far as the dictators that ran the show were atheist, and imposed their atheist beliefs on everyone, hideously persecuting religious people. The Russian Jews could tell you some hideous stories of the persecution they suffered at the hands of atheists, so really, I totally stand by what I said that it is ideology that creates these atrocious environments, and religion or non-religion can be the basis for the political ideology. The countries with least atrocities are the democracies where you are free to believe what you choose......
I'm talking about a completely religionless (not the right word but I don't care, you know what I mean) country because there are plenty of countries that like that.
Mister Noodle
23-03-2006, 18:48
Becca: no worries.
My only point was not that I'm right, but that your position, while claiming to include all viewpoints, wasn't actually as balanced as you were making it out to be.
And that's not a bad thing. Hell, I'm about as balanced as a shopping trolley with a dodgy wheel, I freely admit it. I'm a table-slapping, opinionated contentious little sod, and I'm not about to stop, so I don't see why anyone else should have to, either. :D
I'm just careful to leave people in no doubt of this :)
Ana Gram
23-03-2006, 19:13
Oh ,lol, maybe its a fungus.....mmm mmmm:D
yep a delightful fungus. In places like Salem it was in the rye crops which was their major source of food. Not only were they eating it but breathing the spores which would explain why the whole town was nuts!
Mister Noodle
23-03-2006, 20:28
Ergotamine (the active ingredient in the ergot fungus) does odd things to the cerebral blood supply - which makes it the drug of choice for migraines. Look in any migraine-specific medication, you'll likely find it there.
Category D, though, so no use to you lot :P
Ffrenchknickers
23-03-2006, 20:32
Category D, though, so no use to you lot :P
What's category D?
Mister Noodle
23-03-2006, 21:01
Category D: Known to cause birth defects in humans.
Notchalk
23-03-2006, 23:56
I had one of those evil midwives so best I don't say anything about them ;)
Ooh, did you have a Medwife, then?
Ana Gram
24-03-2006, 00:02
Ooh, did you have a Medwife, then?
Well I know she wasn't much of a midwife, I'm not sure what a medwife is and I am thinking she might have been more of a madwife!
bronny-jane
24-03-2006, 06:38
forgive me if im wrong but werent alot of the witches who were killed, were accussed by neighbours wanting there land and jelous wifes. there were alot of midwifes too, but the majority of accusations steamed from petty things like property and personal relationships.
im probably wrong.
Supermum
24-03-2006, 07:19
Well I know she wasn't much of a midwife, I'm not sure what a medwife is and I am thinking she might have been more of a madwife!
Chelle - I believe medwives are midwives who support those Obstetricians who have a penchant for performing unnecessary CS. "Need a new Mercedes ... that'll be 10 CS - best I go scare some unsuspecting mothers-to-be."
Mister Noodle
24-03-2006, 08:22
Okay, this thread's getting downright quiet. Time to stir the pot a little, and see what falls out:
We're told that god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. That is, all-powerful, all-knowing and all-good. But IMHO, those concepts themselves are problematic.
We'll start with the classics:
1: Can god create a rock so heavy that he could never lift it?
2: Can god do something he didn't know he was going to?
3: Can god have faith? (ie. certainty without knowledge)
4: Can god create a world without evil? Doesn't he want to?
5: If your answer to 4 is that a being that will never do evil cannot by definition have free will, then which is god: evil or without free will?
okay, that's my ration of troublemaking for the morning.
Ana Gram
24-03-2006, 11:13
forgive me if im wrong but werent alot of the witches who were killed, were accussed by neighbours wanting there land and jelous wifes. there were alot of midwifes too, but the majority of accusations steamed from petty things like property and personal relationships.
im probably wrong.
Yes that is true, I think I mentioned earlier that the vast majority of people accused had nothing to do with witchcraft. Some accused were named by others during torture session as the idea was that there were 13 members of a coven, so the accused had to name the rest of them.
Maybe we should take this stream of conversation to another thread??
Ana Gram
24-03-2006, 11:14
Chelle - I believe medwives are midwives who support those Obstetricians who have a penchant for performing unnecessary CS. "Need a new Mercedes ... that'll be 10 CS - best I go scare some unsuspecting mothers-to-be."
Well then no we will stick with madwife - she was anti drugs, anti doctors, anti cs, and anti listening to me.
Tea Lady
24-03-2006, 13:19
Sorry to be catching up on things so late everyone, I've been having a shocker of a week so haven't been around much.
Most of what I've got to say related to posts that are a bit old I'm afraid, but I'll say it anyway!
Well, here's a question, Tea Lady...
If there's no laws (post-NT), then how can you break any?
If you cannot break any laws, how can you have sinned?
If you have not sinned, then what need for salvation?
If you do not need salvation, what need for a saviour?
Now personally, I agree with this last part, but then, I'm not a christian...
Umm............ I never said there were no laws post New Testament. I said that I don't think the laws in the Old Testament apply to christians but I didn't say that what the NT says doesn't apply.
Btw I don't think people need laws (religious or otherwise) to know when something's wrong anyway. For an extreme eg even if it wasn't actually illegal I think you'd find most people would agree that killing someone or abusing children is wrong. The vast majority of people (obviously there are some exceptions) have a conscience that lets them know when they've done the wrong thing so I don't think they need laws to convince them of right and wrong.
The bible also states that pi is equal to 3.
I would really appreciate it if you are going to make allegedly factual statements if you would back them up. I have no idea where you got this idea from so please fill us in.
So, game on. How do you rebut my arguments, and how could I distinguish your claims from ones that could equally well be made by a person that was deluded or lying?
I could look you straight in the eye and tell you that I have a deeply spiritual, *personal* relationship with my washing machine, that I talk to it every day and that it gives me the strength, hope and joy to carry on. But you couldn't possibly understand it, of course - you've never experienced the Love Of Panasonic firsthand, and you *obviously* lack the ability to make a logical statement about it.
I'm sorry to drag up an old post here, but I had to say something.
To be honest Mr N, I can't think of an example of something you have said against religion (I’m not just talking about Christianity) that I would really classify as an "argument" in the true sense. Stating strong opinions or making snide comments, vague generalisations and unqualified statements doesn't really constitute much of an argument in my book, and I'm not sure exactly what you were expecting Katie to rebut. Please provide me with examples of proper argument if I'm forgetting something.
(Note: I have no problem with the fact that most of this thread is not about arguments - I think that's great. I just don't want things to be called arguments when they're not.)
Regarding the washing machine example I think you were actually saying the same thing as Katie. She's not trying to prove to you that she has a relationship with God because she knows she can't. Your "argument" here is basically just turning around what she has said, inserting a different example and using a sarcastic tone (which Katie didn’t). Not particularly convincing I'm afraid. I realise that to someone who is not a christian the idea of a relationship with God does sound ridiculous, so my problem is not that you think that, but the tone which you are using.
Telling him that he couldn't possibly understand something is equal to calling him intellectually stunted.
I contend that it's not condescending to tell someone they don't understand something they haven't experienced - it's really just stating the blindingly obvious. I can imagine how it might feel to stand at the top of Mt Everest or have cancer but haven’t done either and I would not feel condescended to if someone who had experienced those things told me I couldn't understand how it felt. My DH hasn't given birth and I don't expect him to understand all the emotional and physical implications of labour for me but it doesn't mean that I think he’s intellectually stunted or I'm being patronising to him – he was a great help to me in labour but it wasn’t “his” experience IYKWIM. He has also very wisely never asked me to prove that it hurt :p
btw I'm still awaiting some evidence to back up your earlier statements about memetics ;)
.............and MonkeyMum I understand what you meant about the different counting systems and the coffee cups ........... it reminded me of a very funny Tom Lehrer song I have about using different base systems in maths :)
MonkeyMum05
24-03-2006, 16:02
:thumbsup: Tea Lady!
Finally, someone understood something I posted!;)
Tea Lady
24-03-2006, 16:21
Finally, someone understood something I posted!
He he, actually quite alot of what you posted ;) I must try to track down the words of that song............ it's very funny. :)
Mister Noodle
24-03-2006, 17:30
7:23 And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: [it was] round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.
The circumference of a circle is pi times the diameter. If the diameter is 10, and the circumference is 30, then pi = 3.
I think the evidence for memetics is all around us: chain letters, old wives' tales, jokes, pyramid schemes, superstitions, oral traditions, and of course, all the religions that exist that contradict whatever the truth happens to be.
A population of ideas that compete for the minds of humans to think them.
Not consciously, of course - but through sheer natural selection, like rocks through a sieve. Ideas that don't (for whatever reason) get passed on... just aren't around any more. Ideas that do, are.
I argue that the (demonstrable) existence of ideas whose spread and retention does not correlate with independent discovery / perception, demonstrates the natural selection of ideas. I argue that the (demonstrable) slow change of the ntaure of these ideas over a period of time into forms that take greater advantage of human psycho-social quirks demonstrates adaptation. I argue that this, being so strongly correlated with known evoluitionary mechanisms, and lacking any other mechanism with explanatory power, demonstrates that these ideas are simply self-replicating entities with little reliance on the truth of their content.
You want a formal argument?
Define 'replicator' as 'entities that inherit the properties of their parents (while admitting of minor changes with each transmission'.
P1: Populations of replicators iteratively passed through a selection process come to strongly embody the traits by which they were selected.
P2: The number of people that adopt any of the myriad ideas to which we are all exposed correlates strongly with the degree to which those exploit psychological 'hot buttons' in the adopters.
P3: Religions are ideas that are transmitted between individuals over successive generations, displaying small changes over time, and differential spread and popularity according to their nature.
P4: No other known mechanism explains the continued (differential) spread and popularity of ideas that are not spontaneously adopted.
C: Therefore, religions are replicators.
Please do feel free to rebut any of the premises.
(I know, should be two premises - I can doubtless decompose it into a collection of proper ponens/tollens arguments if you really want)
It would seem your position has shifted wrt laws:
Jesus fulfilled the "law" by obeying it perfectly and fulfilled the "prophets" by the way he lived and died. By fulfilling the law he completed it, leaving nothing else to be done.
And as for the washing machine - like I said, when someone laughs in my face and says "I can see you can't construct a logical argument", I take that level of derision as a claim that they obviously can - it certainly rates a direct challenge. A bunch of vague counter-assertions does NOT a rebuttal make, and I just wanted to see this wondrous rhetorical skill in action. The Argument From That's Stinkin' Thinkin' does NOT put me in a good mood.
And as for the washing machine - like I said, when someone laughs in my face and says "I can see you can't construct a logical argument", I take that level of derision as a claim that they obviously can - it certainly rates a direct challenge. A bunch of vague counter-assertions does NOT a rebuttal make, and I just wanted to see this wondrous rhetorical skill in action. The Argument From That's Stinkin' Thinkin' does NOT put me in a good mood.
Mr Noodle, let it go ;)
alicesmum
25-03-2006, 06:34
(i promised myself i wasn't coming back here. how strong willed am i?!?!)
anyway - Mr Noodle, an innocent (and possibly naive) question:
i personally like memetics, and find it a very interesting and valuable meta-analysis of human thinking. but what is the alternative to the production and distribution of human ideas? to hold no ideas or beliefs about anything? that's very zen! or do you propose that we simply become aware of the fact that our thoughts and beliefs are memes doing the rounds? and if one can become acutely aware of this, then what are the implications for the ideas, and for the people who hold them?
okay, that was more than one question, but i am interested in your thoughts about the 'practical' relevance/implications of memetics.
(p.s. MonkeyMum - i always understood and agreed with what you were writing too!!! hope to catch up with you again soon.........:p )
Mister Noodle
25-03-2006, 11:25
Coops: I did - but I was asked a direct question about it.
And alicesmum: that's a helluva profound question.
Many people think of memes as some kind of symbiote/parasite, external to the human mind. I personally draw a more exact parallel with the Selfish Gene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene): memes are an inherent *part* of human minds/society, just as genes are an inherent part of our bodies and population.
Just as (even if a method existed) you couldn't 'get rid of' your genes, no more, I feel can you get rid of your memes. Minds have ideas whether you want them to or not - all that's left to be decided is *which ones* they have.
And that's the salient difference. Unlike our genes, we can pick and choose our memes, selecting them according to *conscious* criteria, rather than leaving the process to our most primal desires and fears - which rarely make good choices when it comes to it.
As an analogy, say that everyone had to share their house with a dozen refugees of their choice.
Now, I dunno about you, but the people I'd most want to keep the hell away from me would be manipulative sociopaths, con-men and thugs - and yet these are the very people who would be most able to ensure themselves a place in the general run of things, especially when things got tough.
And the same goes for ideas.
Where an idea makes factual claims, I personally feel that it's terribly important that those claims be true, because you just can't reason with lies to find further truths, and you can't act on them to get the results you want.
Where it offers me happiness, I ask whether it's ever actually going to pay up, and whether that happiness is justified and meaningful. (or whether I should just grab some kleenex while I'm at it...)
And where it threatens terrible things should I reject it, I ask if it really has the power to hurt me, and just why I should let it push me around.
Which is why I'm a skeptic, about *everything*.
Every idea someone throws at me, regardless of the topic, I give a good going over with the bovine faeces detector, trying to see whether the idea is more manipulative than it is demonstrably true. Anything that tries to lie to me, bribe me, or twist my arm goes straight in the bin.
Or at least, I try to always do this. I'm not claiming to be an infallible Mister Spock about things - I just try to be naturally suspicious of anything with an agenda.
So far, religions have scored very, very badly, and so far, every single one has ended up in the bin.
Mr Noodle...... just wondering...... how did you find your way here? (To Bubhub that is, not your personal evolutionary history :eek: )
tanni_83
25-03-2006, 15:54
i know this is a very late post in regards to the thread but i read somewhere about a south park eposode being based on scienceology...i cant get it to work, is it just me or have they removed it from the site that it was on ....i click on the link but it says i cant view it
Mister Noodle
25-03-2006, 17:17
Wattle: goodness, okay:
When a man and a woman love each other very much,
<snip>
And then the man takes the peed-on stick, looks at the pair of lines thereon, and says "O Sweet Zombie Jesus on a pogo stick, I'm going to be a dad!".
Then the man and the woman look on the internet to see what's in store for them next, and... well, long story short, here I am!
Oh cool... it's just that I haven't seen you much on the parenting threads and was wondering how you fit in to the bubhub picture.
Just wondering then....how do you feel your lack of belief in religion/spirituality will affect your child/ren? Will you tell them about Santa, Easter bunny and the tooth fairy or do you think that advocating faith in something that isn't real is unfair?
Just tell me if I'm being too nosey.
Ana Gram
25-03-2006, 18:42
We don't do Santa, easter bunny etc.
I could ask the same question to those of various religions how they think it will affect their children.
Good point, I didn't mean to exclude anyone.
Actually the tooth fairy doesn't relate to any religious holiday, where does he/she fit into that?
Do make believe or imaginary friends have a part to play in children's lives? That would include elves, gnomes, fairies etc too. What about fairy tales?
Ana Gram
25-03-2006, 20:38
To me there is a difference in playing games and making up stories about fairies than telling my child a make believe story and then doing things like putting money under her pillow to make the story plausible.
We don't read the disney style fairy tales either, where almost everyone has a happy ending except for the evil people. My mother didn't read them to my brother and I, she preffered to go with the Grimm Fairy Tales and folk lore stories like Baba Yaga.
MonkeyMum05
25-03-2006, 21:47
We haven't decided what we will teach our little boy about Santa and the Easter Bunny...
but I don't mind if my son thinks that evil deeds bring 'bad karma'... and good deeds bring 'good karma'...
I know that bad things also happen to good people... and vice versa, but I certainly dont feel the stories are harmful to his developing mind.
Mister Noodle
25-03-2006, 21:59
We're not going to do santa / easter bunny / tooth fairy except as a game - there's nothing wrong with a bit of imagination and playing along, but outright telling my kids in cold blood that these things are real rubs me up the wrong way.
I'm pretty sure there will come a time whe I don the suit, pillow and beard - but with tongue very firmly in cheek, and for mainly comic effect.
Other religious things are going to be interesting, as my wife's beliefs are somewhat different from mine - we're both going to be walking a fine line with that one.
(I don't post much in trhe other parenting forums because I'm not yet a parent; I was last of the litter, and my knowledge of baby-wrangling amounts to a sort of vague clue about which end of a baby you pour milk into - but I understand there's a certain ambiguity about which end it comes out again, so I'm suspending judgement on all such issues until I stand a chance of knowing what I'm talking about...)
reAllytee
25-03-2006, 23:26
See this is what im curious about * gets ready to duck * why cant we let kids be kids ?
Why cant we say Santa is real ? Let them have the fantasy & a little fun they work it out themselves after a while no biggie it did me no harm ( well ok im nuts but still :p ) I grew up in a religious house that even though we knew Christmas was all about Jesus that Santa was also part of it too.
See im also curious to hear about peoples take on Harry Potter ( yes i understand some of you out there are sick of that name but anyways LOL ) You see i loooooooooove the books & cant wait to read them to my little Harry. I want his mind filled with fantasy & his imagination to open up wide so there are no limits for him. Now my cousin who is a minister wont allow his 2 daughters to read them as they " go against God & have magic etc etc " but i find this amusing as these kids are now 9 & 13 yrs of age but since they were about 7 or so yrs they have been watching The Simpsons. Maybe i just cant understand how its ok for them to watch that show yet not read a book which has more substance to it.
Im also curious as to what the atheists or the likes think of The Chronicles Of Narnia. Its based loosely on the bible & was done so that kids could make sense & understand more etc. Have you read it & felt it was in your face or did you enjoy it. Will you allow your kids to read it etc ?
Sorry dont mind me im very curious tonite LOL :o
Ana Gram
25-03-2006, 23:32
I have no problem with DD reading books full of fantasy like Harry Potter and the Chronicals of Narnia (which I loved and drew no religious context from it). Here is the difference : lets say she reads harry potter, I'm not going to turn to her and say he is real and everything in the book is real because it's not. Same with Santa.
I really never understand the arguement or question of not letting them be kids. Not having santa is not going to make DD less of a child and has had absolutely no effect on her imagination, she can quite happily play make believe games at age 2.
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