bringing on labour @ 33wks [Archive] - Bub Hub Pregnancy & Parenting Forum

our little treasures

27-04-2005, 00:40

I'm disgusted in a friend of a friend and wanted to get this one off my chest.

We all know what it's like to feel the urge to want to meet our babies to hold them love them and see what they look like, and I'm sure alot of mothers have tried to bring on the labour with many different ways. I did loads of walking in the lead up to my dd birth, as I had heard that sitting on your bum can delay natures intentions.

However after visiting a friend for a chat and play date for dd, I got chatting with her friend who had twins who were born at 33 weeks. I sat through the whole heartbreaking story of how she had to feed the bubs through a syringe and how they were kept in hospital while she went home. How horrible it was and so on, I felt horrible for her and her hubby and the two bubbies.

Then around five minutes later we were talking about how labour started and she told me that her hubby and her had been drinking and they both said they wanted the baby out tonight, so they went to the shops and brought some castor oil. She said she had two cups and went home within hours she had given birth to her twins and thank god they are alive and well today, but what mother goes and puts her unborn bubs at risk like that. Families out there have been through hell and back due to premmie babies and to think before it's a safe time to give birth they went and done this.

I have no respect for people like this after 37 weeks do what you want within reason but don't do it before it's safe!!! :mad:

Lallas' Mum

27-04-2005, 09:51

I must agree with you fully angelbaby8.:mad: It appalls me to see parents who are so self centred and can only see things from their own point of view. I just wish some parents would see the damage they have or could cause by doing stupid things like that. I had a friend who did a similar thing at about 34-35 weeks for both her children. They were born at 36 & 37 weeks. Luckily they were pretty much term and didn't suffer any immediate affects. The oldest boy who was born at 36 weeks does have respiratory problems though. I sometimes wonder if it is because he was born before his lungs were quite ready.
I am currently 39 weeks pregnant and I am huge. I have the usual late pregnancy troubles - swollen feet, sore back, exhaustion and the "I just can't wait to meet you bub" feeling. My ribs feel constantly bruised from my uterus pushing them outward. My uterus measures about 44cm!!!! (It is expected my bub will be between 10 and 12 pounds - my last one was 10 lbs 8oz). Despite all that, I am resting and avoiding all the things that can bring on labour as I want my bub to get the best possible start to life by actually being ready to come out. (Mind you I know I won't be going past term as I am having a c/s due to the size of bub).

I just wish people would think a little bit more about others and not just themselves. Isn't it a parent's job to sacrifice for their children's sake? Or is that just my way of thinking?

Tracey
:) Mum to Alec (Lalla) 18 months and bub due May 3rd

Narelle

27-04-2005, 10:46

Hi Tracey!
No it's not just you I feel the same!
I'm overdue but I still wouldn't do anything to bring on labour that I thought could be harmful to my baby, for example I know heaps of mums do the castor oil thing even my mum did it with me but after reading the thread on inducing labour and finding out it can make the baby poo in the amniotic fluid and then swallow it there was no way I was going to do that!
I've tried a few natural things like walking, bouncing on an exercise ball, playing table tennis and sex none of which have worked so I figure the baby isn't ready to come out yet.
I admire you for your attitude especially considering the problems you're having, I'm really lucky and have had a breezy pregnancy, so I don't mind waiting! except that I want to meet my baby of course!
I'll be induced Monday if still waiting so it's not too much longer! :D

WeThree

27-04-2005, 23:47

that woman sounds like a real idiot, and did i read right when you said that her and her husband had been drinking? stories like this make me mad :( but i just have to keep believing that the majority of us are good sensible people otherwise i would be feeling down all the time...

mumof2girls

28-04-2005, 00:15

People like this make me really mad, I dislike people who drink when they are pregnant and then you decide that you have had enough so you have your children early.

Please who doesn't have enough of being pregnant at some point in their pregnancy but to risk your babies like that is in-excusable :mad:

I guess there is comfort knowing that there are a lot of us loving, caring parents who truly put our children first :)

I just hope her babies have nothing wrong with them in the future!

Ffrenchknickers

28-04-2005, 15:21

OMGoodness. I am flabbergasted. I seriously cannot believe that anyone would do this. How selfish is that?? :mad: :eek: :confused:

StormAngel

28-04-2005, 15:58

Hi

I find what this woman did to be totally irresponsible :eek:

I would have thought that there would have been risk enough with twins without doing something stupid like that :mad:

We all get impatient to a certain degree but that is just plain silly, why on earth put your babies at risk :confused:

alicesmum

28-04-2005, 17:06

it's human nature i suppose to judge others upon hearing something like this. it's easy to do and none of us have ever even considered doing what this woman did, thank god.
but I believe in suspending judgement until you have "walked a mile in some one else's shoes" - there are *always* reasons behind what we do. human beings act the way they do because of the various influences that shape them, whether these be biological or social, genetic or environmental. I wonder why she and her husband were drinking, as this obviously led to an absence of sensible thinking causing her to take the castor oil. You might say 'because she was selfish, think only of herself'. But why?? what caused this? surely the reasons for selfishness and thoughtlessness must be understandable if you go searching (lack of education/knowedge, feeling desperate for some reason, etc). If you looked deeply enough into someone's life, you can even come to *understand* (i didn't say "condone") why that woman drowned her kids in the lake or the other one cut off her husband's penis. I just don't believe that humans have the capacity to act outside the causal connections that link us in every respect to the rest of the world. even if someone is "stupid" genetically speaking, is that their fault? should we judge? when you've behaved badly in the past, hasn't there always been a reason? didn't you feel like saying "if you were me, you'd understand why I just behaved like this?". in this woman's case, it's likely to be more about lack of education (angelbaby??) and that's why education is by far the most important issue in today's society.

ok, i'll get off my soapbox now!

lilizzysmommy

28-04-2005, 22:24

Education???NO, pure selfishness. My mom was really undereducated, her dad pulled her off primary school saying tha school was useless and is only good to write love letters(we were from a third world country, thank God my dad was a very bright student) In a country like the one I'm from, there is no education for pregnant women, there is no doctor's check up, unless you have money, there is no follow up after birth and they send you home the day you give birth wearing the same clothes used while giving birth. Yet again, my mom never did something like this Ever and she has 4 kids. She was REALLY uneducated as I was born when she was 19.here in australia even poor people can get free check ups at an atenatal clinic and if you are uneducated the give you heaps of help, advise, material to read. They teach you how to take care of yourself and your unborn baby, why the day I went to my gp to confirm my pregnancy he gave me loads of panflets and stuff, so it has nothing to do with education. I try to understand but even tho i try to find a reason, I can't, In a country like this, you have no excuse for such stupidity.

our little treasures

29-04-2005, 00:26

We are all educated enough to know that drinking while pregnant can cause health problems to the unborn we are also aware of all the dangers of premmie babies and even having twins at there due dates is a risk. I'm sorry I don't care what her reasons for this act were. I have a niece who is severly retarded due cmv. No fault to her mother or father just a cold that mum picked up in the first trimester that attacked the baby, She will be three and has so far had a life of surgery needles tubes tests and is hardley ever at home. She was born on her edd at 4pnds noone picked her isze or anything up at any checks. To think that people in this world would do anything selfishly to their children makes me sick. But what makes me even more sick is the people alicesmum actually make excuses for this disgusting act of selfishness!!! :mad: Maybe they should walk a mile in my brothers shoes!!

wattle

29-04-2005, 09:02

It just goes to show, you don't need any qualifications to be a parent. (Or in some cases any idea at all) Shame on BOTH mother and father.

alicesmum

29-04-2005, 11:27

angelbaby
there is a massive difference between excuses and trying to understand why people act the way they do. clearly, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that it is bad and risky behavior. what's the point in everyone getting on here and saying" shame on her" and "how irresponsible". What's the point of doing that; please tell me? Because it makes us feel better about ourselves?

my response was definitely not meant to excuse their behavior. please don't think this. an excuse is a false reason. a lie. what I said wasn't a lie. I don't know what this woman's truth is. what did she say about why she did it? did you ask her how she felt about it now?

I am a counselling psychologist and if this women came to see me i wouldn't be saying "shame on you" or "you're an idiot". would you???? what would you say to her if you were her psychologist? please tell me......

paranoidmomtobe

29-04-2005, 11:37

i agree also there are so many women in this world that either cant have kids or have been trying for years and then there are the people that do drugs,drink and there able to have kids easly i just dont understand how people dont care if they hurt there babies or not. I am 5 weeks pregnat i recently had a miscarrage and i want nothing more then to have a healthy baby and if i was to drink or smoke or do drugs i would feel so hurt.

lilizzysmommy

29-04-2005, 19:33

alicesmom, if the woman was getting counselling, she wouldn't be telling people what she did so casually, do you actually think this one gives a damn? there are mothers outhere who do stupid things but they realize what they do and seek help, at least they are responsable enough to do something about it, but what this woman did, was totally idiotic and damn selfish and she didn't care...

nemosmum

29-04-2005, 19:45

I was 12 days over due with my bub and I had a midwife actually tell me to try drinking some castor oil inorder to bring him along! I didnt but some mums- to - be may have taken her advice.

wattle

29-04-2005, 20:39

Here here lilizzysmommy, good point.

Shame on you alicesmum for being so critical of people just having their say and putting their opions across. After all, that's what this forum is for.

There is no excuse for putting your unborn childrens lives at risk intentionally, and that's why this thread has upset members. :p

alicesmum

30-04-2005, 10:34

if any of us are christians (and i'm not) we might do well to remember jesus' mercy and compassion and statements he made like:

"judge not lest ye be judged" and
"let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

that's all i'm saying.
what she did is very wrong and irresponsible, there's no debate.

noniandlilysmum

30-04-2005, 23:40

lilizzysmommy

01-05-2005, 00:34

Hi there, I totally agree with you alicesmum... Who are we to judge... I was 12 days over due with my daughter Lily, when I was to be induced the very next day and decided to take castor oil to bring on my labour... I have no regrets, other than sitting on the toilet for 2 hours, I wouldn't have done it any other way, Are you all going to judge me for what I did... And exactly right, this is a forum where we can give our opinions, which is the beauty of being on a forum, no one should judge anyone... I do not agree with anyone who tries to bring on a labour so early... But I will again be taking castor oil if I happen to go over my due date... What about raspberry leaf tea, and having sex, induction, etc etc... how do we know if any of these are really safe??? When something bad happens to us, like a miscarriage, stillbirth, premature birth or other birth defect of course we are going to get all defensive and say "how selfish", "what an idiot", "how stupid", but like alicesmum said take a walk in the other persons shoes before we judge or perhaps lets just look at ourselves first, as I am sure there are other things we might do that could perhaps be "selfish" or "an idiot act" or "stupid", and perhaps we need to re-think the way we are as human beings and perhaps if we ever get into a similar situation, maybe we can be an ear for that person and just be thankful we wouldn't put our little ones in such danger... :p
Well, see, the thing is that you were, well 12 days OVER due, which is understandable...i mean, come on! 12 days! but we are not talking about the fact that se took the castor oil, we are talking about the fact that she brough on labour at 33 Weeks, wich is waaaaay too early especially for twins, who are smaller than other babies, oh yeah and the fact that she was drinking at the time she "decided" she din't want to be pregnant anymore and god knows what else she might of been doing.. but I don't really think the castor oil was the reason for such an outrage among us (it mighta be for some, but not me, I didn't even know about the castor oil til now). Look, all of you can judge me all you want, but if I was 12 days over due, I'll pretty much do anything too, well maybe not, I'll just stalk the doctor until they decide to induce me....althogh I would have tried the sex thing :D

mumof2girls

01-05-2005, 01:46

Well another hot topic!

I think most people agree that the reason everyone seems upset is not the fact she took the castor oil but the fact that she decided that she had had enough of the pregnancy and wanted the babies out and that she had 7 weeks to go and we all know that is when they put on a majority of their weight (babies).

I personally think it is a selfish act and believe me I had horrible pregnancies and I wanted my babies out the sooner the better but I would never have put them in any kind of danger like she did!

As lilizzysmommy's said maybe if she was getting counselling she wouldn't be so casual about it. If she is so casual about this what kind of choices will she be making for her children in the future? :confused:

This is my opinion anyway!

Baby Girl

01-05-2005, 22:55

The thing that got me about this woman was the fact that she was drinking at 33 weeks and just decided she didn't want to be pregnant anymore!! If she was drinking then, I wonder how she behaves now the bubs are actually born and I wonder if she ever comes close to deciding she doesn't want to be a mother anymore!! That scares me! If she had so little 'care factor' for her unborn children then how much 'care' does she show now they are not actually "part" of her.

And her husband deserves a bad rap for letting her put his babies at risk by acting the way she did. Which brings to mind another question....Did he encourage her actions? I guess we will never know. I find it upsetting that both of them don't exactly sound like they have sound parenting skills!! :mad:

our little treasures

02-05-2005, 00:06

When reading the original thread that I posted I did actually say that after 37 weeks do whatever to bring the labour on, and the truth is if she had of waited most women with twins are induced early anyway. I thank god that there are new bills being passed through that makes it illegal to put your unborn children at harm!!!
If alicesmum and others don't like the opinions of others regarding this topic thats fine, go into another thread. This is a forum where we should be able to express our opinions both likes and dislikes, you can have your opinion without judging others for theirs. :mad:

our little treasures

02-05-2005, 00:09

mayasmum

02-05-2005, 14:12

i agree with the opinions of everyone on here. what this woman did is idiotic and quite unbelievable.
but I take pity not only on her babies but on her as well. she must be a pretty sad and ^%$#ed up person to do what she did. I wouldn't want to be her!!

as my mum (who is also not christian :) ) used to say "there but for the grace of god go I". i guess we are all capable of doing bad things. but thankfully we are not as ignorant as this person.

it's just as well that her babies are okay, as she might have been up on some pretty serious charges. i'm glad they have brought in laws about this kind of thing.

alicesmum

02-05-2005, 14:37

hey, hang on a second....i was disagreeing with the criticisms of this woman - someone who we don't even know!!! I am allowed to have my opinion about things too! i'm not going to "go to another thread" just because i don't like your opinions. we all have a right to have our say. yes, it is too bad if others don't like what we have to say. that's life. but this site is not just so that people can get together and jointly demonise someone who is as human as we are.

a recent review of the movie "downfall" said the film tried to make Hitler seem human and even to draw out our empathy for him because to simply say he was "evil" and "a monster" doesn't help us to learn why he was like he was and how to stop it happening in the future.

my point is, understanding (and compassion) is generally much more helpful/useful at the end of the day than judging and demonising another human being.

OF COURSE SHE "SHOULDN'T" HAVE DONE IT. That is a no brainer!!!! So what is gained from having a *****??? (I'm no saint mind you, and occasionally do have a ***** about people who have harmed me, but generally refrain from *****ing about people i don't even know).

One reason for my strong views here is that I was drugged and raped quite violently several years ago, and I can confirm that in the end the most useful thing for me was to reflect on the reasons for his behavior, and find pity for him. It was much more empowering than being angry and bitter.

Okay.... :p ....getting off my soap-box now!!

:p :p

Doctorlove

03-05-2005, 22:14

Hi ladies,

I just wanted to add to the debate by firstly endorsing alicesmum's view that humans do things for reasons, at least in my experience, but also to validate that those of you who were outraged about this woman's behaviour share a deep concern for the welfare of these children, as no doubt alicesmum also does. To explain and understand human behaviour is not to condone that behaviour, or to erode a child's right to a loving, nurturing and safe environment in which to thrive. At no point did I see Alicesmum doing that, she was defending this woman's right to be understood in a compassionate manner, as all we faulty human beings would like to be approached, including those who feel alicesmum's comments were critical of their point of view (although it appeared to me that she was advocating for compassion rather than judging those who wished to crucify this woman).

My experience with emotionally damaged mothers confirms Alicesmum's assumption that every childabuser has an understandable story for why they behave the way they do. I currently work in mental health, but have also worked as a doctor in obstetrics including working in antenatal clinics in a low socioeconomic status population with the greatest incidence of child abuse in the state. At my hospital it is common for women to present in labour with no antenatal care, to take drugs and abuse alcohol in pregnancy, and to have ambivalent feelings towards motherhood and their babies. I saw one very damaged pregnant teenager in fostercare who was so distraught at the thought of being a mother that she would punch her pregnant abdomen whenever she felt the baby kick. All these cases are distressing, and all of us feel both grief and anxiety that babies can have such a rough start in life... but what about their mothers? What makes a woman so "selfish" to put her own needs above her defenceless childs (mind you - all humans are inherently selfish, even when it comes to our children.. we sacrifice our needs both to pass on our genes and reflect our supreme parenting ability)?

My experience is that many emotionally damaged women end up as mothers either because they are looking to meet their unmet love needs through having children, to give some sort of purpose to their existence, or because they have difficulty with self care, planning, or impulse control so that they neglect contraceptive options or simply live in denial of the consequences of their behaviours. In my experience I have not met a single "child abuser" that I considered evil or deserving of our anger. Each of them had harrowing tales of lifetimes of abuse and self loathing to explain (not excuse) their behaviour. Would we extend more sympathy to this woman's babies, after a youth of their needs being placed secondary to their parents self destructive inability to look beyond their own emotional needs, if they were to grow up and do something similar with their own pregnancies? My guess is that these parents are emotionally damaged for good reason. The fact that the woman tells her story so flippantly and without apparent remorse tells me either she lacks a concept of what socially acceptable mothering is, or she is subconsciously looking for others to condemn her in order to confirm her underlying conviction that she is a terrible mother and person and deserves to be despised by people who barely know her (victims of abuse often invite retraumatisation).

Condemnation and fingerpointing does little to break the passing down of abuse through the generations. We need to make efforts to understand, promote protective factors and reduce damaging factors, and give compassion to show that motherhood is about providing nurturing role models as much as it is about self-sacrifice.

Cheers, and it sounds like all of you are commited caring mothers, good on you!

Dr Love.

noniandlilysmum

03-05-2005, 23:56

Well said Dr Love... I enjoyed everything you said... And Alicesmum, your opinion is as valid as everyone elses... I was molested and a lot of other nasty things happened to me when I was younger, including telling my mother of such instances, which she believed was all lies... When I was 16 I hated the world and fell into a very self destructive course of drinking and drugs... I even remember when I was in high school, one of my teachers had said they see me in jail in years to come... I went from bad to worse, leaving home on my 15th birthday only to move from one bad environment to another, with a man twice my age, who was violent, a cheater and an alcoholic... I stayed with this man for four years, which might not seem like a long time for most, but was the second worst time of my life (other than growing up in a single parent family by an abusive mother)... I fell pregnant at 17, I had stopped drinking and smoking and was in and out of shelters and back and forth with my partner... The day my beautiful daughter was born was the day I looked at her and said "NO MORE"... And I never went back... I haven't seen this person in 6 years and am proud of the person I have become, I even struggle every day to be the best mother I can and am determined not to end up like my mother... I have a wonderful husband and a new family, For once in my life I am really happy and have found the real meaning of FAMILY... One thing I know though is like Dr Love said people are like this for a reason and we need to find compassion and understanding in the way they are... My mum was abused by her mother and father, was raped and also made to give up a baby at the age of 19, no excuse I know... And then there is my daughters biological father, He was abusive, a cheater and an alcoholic among other things, He was beaten by an alcoholic mother and goodness knows what else... What he has done will stay in my mind forever, but in both cases (my mother and partner) they had problems that stemmed from their childhood, they were moulded into these people they are now... I know I am probably not the only one on this thread, forum etc who has had to deal with such problems, but aren't we glad we have had the courage and found the confidence to change the course of life we were taking... Aren't we glad we can look back at what we have gone through and feel proud of where we are now, or where we are heading with our lives, I know I am.. I hope we can all learn to forgive and be compassionate to those who are less fortunate than ourselves, after all, none of us are perfect... :) Oh and don't feel sorry for me... I am happier in my life now, and wouldn't change one bit...

lilizzysmommy

04-05-2005, 16:39

I reckon that instead on spending money on pointless wars in the middle east the governmoent should spend more money in the education of young women and sex. I'm sick of these people who get pregnant and mistreat their kids just for the sake of it, I'm a young mom, a teenage mom you could say but I love my child from the time I found out I was pregnant and did everything posible for her to have a great start in life. My point is that many young girls are falling pregnant and they don't know what to do and let it go on and on till is too late and they have no choise but to have the baby and in the mean time they are doing everything they can think of to try and get rid of it by themselves. Is sad, and instead of sitting in their arses yaking about bull**** (sorry ladies) these good for nothing politicians should come up with so sort of plan to stop this from happening or at least decrese the number of cases, that's what we pay taxes for after all.

lilizzysmommy

04-05-2005, 16:50

And to alicesmom, hey sorry about ganging up on you, but I don't think we should be making any excuses for this lady or anyone else for that matter excuses are just a way to get away with things and honestly unless she has a mental disease or is deeple disturbed (and if she really was I think that the person who started this threat would of told us) there is no excuse. I should know cos my life was based on excuses, my mom left me, didn't have a family ect ect ect but now that I'm older and wiser I know that we are quite capable of knowing right from wrong no matter what we went through in life or what our circumstances are, we have brains and free will, we cant blame our actions on anything else, and besides she didn't give an excuse Except that she was sick of being pregnant wich by the way we all were at the end, I'm sure of it, so why are you the one to give her and excuse?

veronica

04-05-2005, 17:32

I really don't think that Alicesmum was trying to excuse the woman in questions behavour, only point out that judgement does nothing (other than perhaps make us feel more superior?) when we don't know all the facts.

Additionally how would the thread starter know if the woman in question had a mental disease? She said that she was a friend of a friend and was speaking casually. There are an incredible amount of people out there with depression for instance and we probably even know some ourselves yet we wouldn't know that they were ill.

I would be very careful of advocating criminal punishment in cases of harm to unborn children. For instance were does the womans rights end and the childs begin? Look at the recent instance of the woman who had authorities sicked on her for daring to VBAC. This area is incredibly grey and complex and cannot be solved in simple judgemental ways.

Lastly, of course the womans actions were irresponsible, and I abhor harm to defenseless children who do not ask to be born.

lilizzysmommy

05-05-2005, 00:32

Well we all had our say, and it's true, judging people is not gona change the situation, Thank you very much ladies, it's thanks to your opininons and points of view that I'm getting wiser. I reckon we should find something else to complain about and give this one a rest and hopefully all ends well for those two lil angels and that her stupidity was a once in a lifetime thing.

our little treasures

05-05-2005, 23:06

Firstly a friend of friend she is because she would never become a friend of mine our children may play together we may see each other every couple of days but she would not be considered a friend knowing what I know. Secondly if she had a mental disease don't you think that I would have made considerations for this she is a woman who married chose to fall pregnant and is very stable in her life. Thirdly OMG lets get into this shall we I was molested as a child and I was kidnapped etc and well done to all of you professionals who can forgive what happened, but this was a thread about a woman who put her unborn childrens lifes at risk. Lets remember that these little bubs lungs were not developed etc.
I think its great that you see past this but I don't, I have whats called maternal instinct and thats what I base all of my comments on not a degree in whatever background it is that makes people pity this woman. As goes for womans rights and the childs begin in this situation the woman shouldn't have any and further more the women in the case of vbac didn't harm her child she in fact researched ways to help her unborn child so it isn't even the same thing!

So on that I hope we all agree to disagree, because nothing will change my opinion.

veronica

06-05-2005, 10:29

Firstly I do not have a degree that enables me to pity the woman in question. I just thought that we had a case of feeling superior by all being judgemental. Would it be better to think about what we might do if the case came before us and constructive ways we might help to persuade a person to put their children first?

Secondly, I feel I certainly don't lack in maternal feelings. I follow my instincts with my DD, demand breast feed, etc, and do not see what that has to do with not wanting everyone to ***** about someone when they are not here to offer more info or defend themselves.

Thirdly, everyone has rights and the VBAC is IMO very much the same issue as the medical staff were argueing that she was putting the life of her unborn child at risk by considering a 'risky' VBAC rather than a 'safe' elective c/section. Both are issues about risk to unborn babies.

Lastly, I think that the VBAC woman did things that were right for her and did not put undue risk to the unborn child (not that the medical staff would agree!) but that in this case the woman did put undue risk to her unborn twins as the decision was based on alcohol and not research. So I do believe it is very much a grey area of womans rights and unborn childs rights.

So, I have never disagreed that what the woman did is totally irresponsible, but would it not be better to offer guidance, support and lead by example than just judge and ***** behind someones back - after all the childrens rights are better served by action that helps the parent as it ultimately will result in better outcomes for the child. Children don't choose to be born and we can't all decide who should and shouldn't be sterilised so it would be better to help these children have better lives than to sit back and say how wonderful we are rather than help.

noniandlilysmum

06-05-2005, 15:57

Hi angelbaby, first of all no-one is asking you to change your opinion, this is your decision... However, I am a very maternal mother, I have 2 children and a 3rd on the way and as I said previously, I struggle every day to be the best mother I possibly can be, as is for most of us, I love babies like you wouldn't believe and am constantly touching my bump and am just so excited and impatient to meet our new little man, You or anyone else need not make the opinion that one is less maternal than someone else... Nobody disagrees with what your saying in regards to this woman and her irresponsibility along with her husbands... What I think everyone is trying to say is that its easier to judge someone for the mistakes they make to make ourselves feel better and pass judgement without taking a look in our own back yards first... It's an easy mistake to make... I am not perfect and nor do I think you are... But if you see yourself as a maternal person, you would also see yourself as a mature person, In saying this one might think our wisdom can see past what this woman has done and realise we all make mistakes, and perhaps she regrets what she has done, alcohol can make a person do some absolutely stupid things, not saying anyone condones her actions or that drinking alone when pregnant is a silly thing to do, unless you have self control... I know myself I like to have a glass of wine, but I definately no when to stop also... However, you said this was her first baby, so without once again seeming like I condone her actions, don't we all make mistakes with our first baby, and isn't it hard when you have been single (meaning child free) to change into that mature and responsible person, your all meant to be when you are to become a mother, father etc... Sadly, this woman isn't the only irresponsible mother/father in the world, and hopefully she has learnt a valuable lesson, and I don't believe one absolute stupid mistake should make her a bad mother who shouldn't have any more children... How does she nurture her little ones now they are born? When you seen her with her little ones does she seem to love them dearly? How old is this woman? these are some questions perhaps you can ponder over, I know I would love to know what sort of person she is in general... :)

alicesmum

06-05-2005, 17:05

i was also interested to know how she feels about it now (i.e., what she did) and what kind of mum she is now.....

Doctorlove

06-05-2005, 18:18

Hello again ladies,

Angelbaby, I understand that this woman has triggered much anguish for you and that it seems by seeking understanding for the mother that one cannot be truly protecting the babies. Does it have to be babies vs parents? Can't someone support the parents in order to better support the babies? If you blame the parents and aren't interested in befriending or understanding them, then the only thing you offer the babies is hating and judging their parents and hoping that the babies will be given to someone who is better equipped to raise them. If you seek to understand the mother then the possibilities are endless how you might be able to influence her to make things better for the babies... you could lead by example, talk to her and show her the positives of nurturing motherhood, encourage her to go to parenting classes with you etc. If you care so much for these children, then there are many ways that your matenal instinct could be put to good use through befriending the mother. Is it possible to extend your maternal instinct to include the mother? Afterall, she is someone's daughter... what would you do if she was your daughter? Wouldn't the world be a very different place if maternal instinct was applied to all the human beings we might come in contact with, regardless of their age or creed?

I appreciate the honesty you have shown by talking about your own abuse as a child, and the others that have been so brave to share their stories. Isn't it interesting how different people cope with their own abuse? The way I see it, you can blame yourself for abuse and end up with a life of depression and low self esteem, you can blame the abuser and identify with victims and the oppressed which may be more adaptive but may also lead to difficulties with anger, judgement and mistrust of others, or you can choose to understand rather than blame and look for solutions which are tied up in the reasons for the abuse. I wonder whether your reluctance to be able to look beyond the act is to do with your coping style for your own abuse. If you tried to understand this woman, is it like trying to understand the people that have abused you? I can understand that this must trigger a lot of powerful emotions for you.

You say that nothing will change your mind... why post about this topic if there is nothing that anyone could say to look at it differently? Were you looking for reassurance that your anger was justified, or were you looking to rally the troops to wage war on child abusers? Anger and outrage are natural responses, but perhaps less productive and empowering than seeking to understand and thereby change things for the better. Hate comes easily to the oppressed or those that seek to protect them, forgiveness and understanding of perpetrators is a battle, but the prize (the possibility of a change for the better) is well worth the effort....

Cheers,

Dr Love.

Doctorlove

11-05-2005, 19:51

Hello ladies,

Well, it seems that I may have deadened the thread by being a little too confrontational and intimidating the previous posters..... that was definitely not my intention and I apologise if I was being too personal and digging a little too deep. Angelbaby, I would be interested to hear a reply but I understand that I have probably triggered some intense underlying emotion that you would prefer to avoid, so I understand that it may be difficult to reply. If I have opened a Pandora's box, perhaps it would be helpful to discuss some of this with a professional therapist in your area. There should be no shame in seeking therapy... even shrinks have their own shrinks, including me! Often we avoid painful messages, the ones that challenge the status quo and are the most important hurdles in our own journey towards inner peace and enlightenment. I am sorry if I have touched a raw nerve, but raw nerves may trigger the most profound and life-changing experiences, so I hope that whatever the outcome you are able to make sense of it all and move on to bigger and better things....

Cheers,

Dr Love.