View Full Version : BMJ: Is infant male circumcision an abuse of the rights of the child? YES
MotherNurture
08-12-2007, 12:09
8 December 2007
Volume 335
http://press.psprings.co.uk/bmj/december/feat1180.pdf
Thoughts?
Jen
While I would never circumcise a son of mine, circumcising boys is something that doesn't anger me as much as it does others. Personally I couldn't put a baby through the pain and discomfort but I wouldn't consider someone to be a child abuser or taking their son's rights if they decide to do it.
A lot of men who have been circumcised really don't care. They have no ill feelings towards their parents whatsoever.
On the other hand, I know someone in my family (I won't name names) who was not circumcised and he tells his parents all the time that he wished he had been but feels it's too late now and there would be no point.
I was glad to read that a lot of Muslim families are waiting until their sons are older before they do it. That's a good thing :)
Thoughts?
I think that the word "abuse" is being thrown around like candy and it makes the very real, very sad and very horrifying act of child abuse into a trivial matter.
secondtimearound2
08-12-2007, 20:37
Thanks for the info mothernuture. The second page was very interesting...since there is NO vac for HIV it should be routine in the countries where 3.8 million were infected in 2006. Reducing the numbers by 50% would be a blessing for those men, woman and children involved and touched by this horrid disease.
RainbowStars
08-12-2007, 21:24
For me personally, I would not circumcise. Not because I think it is child abuse... to be really honest, that just sounds quite insane to me. I obviously see abuse as something totally different.
I have made my choice on the issue of circumcision - but i do not feel the need to harp on about it to other people. They can do what they like - it's none of my business. End of story.
the_queen
08-12-2007, 21:44
I think "abuse" is certainly an appropriate word to use when we're discussing the surgical modification of a newborn baby's genitals.
sam's mum
08-12-2007, 21:52
I don't see the need to surgically modify something that is functioning perfectly well, just the way god intended it to. I have no need to put my son through the procedure. this may change in the future, and if it does I will consider surgical options at that point in time.
Is it abuse of the child's rights? YES
Why it isn't illegal is beyond me.
And why is abuse the wrong word here? Someone is taking a sharp implement to these boys and disfiguring them, I think that is highly abusive!
No robust research exists examining the long term psychological effects of male infant circumcision. Most evidence of psychological trauma in men is anecdotal. Until a large, representative study of sound methodology examines this issue, we cannot know for sure if men who grew up without a foreskin feel that they were assaulted. Only a tiny proportion of the billions of circumcised men have reported emotional distress as a result of it, in uncontrolled and retrospective studies.
I want research!!!!
I am a Gemini (twin personality), with moon in Libra (likes to weigh up both sides before judging). I need to see both sides in a properly researched paper....
I am alarmed and distressed by the few men that are traumatised, that have posted here on bubhub, but I am going to be frighteningly honest, and say that the majority of men I know are circ'd and show no signs of trauma. I wish I could even lie about it, and say yes, these men are clearly suffering, but why would I? what would that achieve? it is not the truth.
I am able to contrast this with the amount of women I see traumatised by a bad birth - it is epidemic. But I have never seen this same epidemic of men traumatised by circ. In my real every day life, I can honestly say I have never met, in the flesh, a man traumatised by it. at most I get the shrug of a the shoulders in a 'whatever' style of response.....and believe you me, living within a Jewish community, of varying religious levels and types, ranging from totally atheist secular to ultra orthodox, I have seen quite a spectrum, and being Jewish, I have the ability to give the 20 questions to people on the most 'inappropriate' topics!
are there groups? are there local chapters in major cities, of Jewish men who I could meet with to talk to? Any in Perth?
All I can say, is avoid circ at all costs, if you are able to get out of it - what is the point? Leave the debate to those who sit in the grey area......though I tell you, it is a huge headache to me. I really dont understand why people do it when there is no heritage or medical indication involved. And why is it that those who are anti-circ are always those who dont have heritage or medical indications weighing on their shoulders?
I honestly look at the anti-circers who sit safely in their place of not having any pressure from heritage or medical indications and think "what would you know???? easier said than done"
sorry, i'm just tired of not getting the help I need in regards to my situation. be honest, noone really cares, they just are sitting on their own self-righteous pedastals with some kind of 'I need to be proven right' attitude, with absolutely no ability to look more deeply into the issue. I'm talking about both anti-circ and pro-circ here. I am not accusing one of being worse than the other. both are as bad as each other.
neither side is giving me much of a clearer view. so i ask, on this forum, for the MILLIONTH time.....does anyone have any RESEARCH???? the BMJ has also only come up with anecdotes, in the form of this article.
moonblossom
09-12-2007, 00:12
Yes it is abuse. nieve people who have this done, well their nieve, but informed people who have this done, are ABUSIVE PARENTS.
Nothing will ever change my mind about that.
Yes it is abuse. nieve people who have this done, well their nieve, but informed people who have this done, are ABUSIVE PARENTS.
Nothing will ever change my mind about that.
except when you have people who believe they are spiritually enlightening and enhancing their child by doing it......
some are told that the are committing child abuse by NOT circing their sons.
are you going to take on the entire Jewish community, which has withstood millenia of hardship and suffering, most recently surviving an attempt of genocide in the holocaust? do you really think they are naive? people who survive such batterings are not naive. If they can withstand a holocaust (at the hands of non-circd men, btw) then I think they can survive the onslaught of the anti-circ mob.
If I'm going to 'take' my emotional blackmail from any group, or any 'side' of the circ argument, I am beginning to see more clearly who will win at blackmailing me.....
i'm still indecisive, but accusing people of being naive really takes the biscuit, when grouped in with the people you refer to who do it, are my own ancient flesh and blood. I can't believe that anti-circ'ers may in the end, be the ones who make me think that bris milah is a good idea for my sons :hair:.
moonblossom
09-12-2007, 00:35
Oh watch circumcision video's, GO WATCH it be done, then tell me its not painful. DON'T lecture me on religion, I know it all. And it STILL doesn't make sense.
I WILL put every parent into the same basket if they chose this path for their son, LIKE IT OR LUMP IT.
Oh and I want to add, that family of mine did die during the holocaust, SO DONT bring that into the same line as chopping off a boys foreskin, I am Jewish, and I'm against circumcision, if i'm going to hell for that, then we worship a different God.
ummm....Jews dont believe in going to hell......
have you been at a bris milah? I am genuinely curious.
and arent you lucky that none of your family have ganged up on you about this issue. good for you!!
alienation from ALL of society, ALL of my family etc, is a laugh a minute.
thanks :)
MotherNurture
09-12-2007, 03:18
I think that the word "abuse" is being thrown around like candy and it makes the very real, very sad and very horrifying act of child abuse into a trivial matter.
The other side of the coin of course is that perhaps our own cultural conditioning causes us to perceive very real acts of a abuse as a trivial matter. For example, most of us are absolutely horrified by even the most minor forms of female genital mutilation. Even just pricking or knicking the clitoris to draw a ritual drop of blood is atrocious, but many don't think twice about amputating up to half of the skin on their baby's penis after having it forcefully separated (literally torn) from the glans.
Many people will read this and they'll go to great lengths to differentiate between the two practices. They'll claim African parents intend to hurt their daughters, they'll claim that circumcised women can't enjoy sex, they'll claim that it's different because FGM=complete clitoridectomy and infibulation, but it's all myth and exaggeration. The only real difference is cultural conditioning. It's hard to view our own harmful practices, the ones we consider "normal", with honest criticism. It's much easier to point the finger at "them".
CONCLUSIONS
The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis.
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2006.06685.x
Personally, I think it's the phrase "parental choice" that's "thrown around like candy". The reality is, parents who harm their children are rarely evil; they usually have good intentions, mean well, and feel justified in their behavior. Parents hit their children "for their own good", and it's very common to raise your children as you were raised; it's a cycle.
Can you imagine what it must have been like, what it must have looked like, to be the very first person, the very first parent on the face of the planet, to-without any scientific reason whatsoever-cut off part of your baby's genitals with no sterile instruments, no anesthetic, no antibiotics available? What would possess a parent to do such a thing? Hearing a "voice"? How does something like that become popular...trendy?
---
Originally Posted by moonblossom
Yes it is abuse. nieve people who have this done, well their nieve, but informed people who have this done, are ABUSIVE PARENTS.
Nothing will ever change my mind about that.
except when you have people who believe they are spiritually enlightening and enhancing their child by doing it......
Nope, I'm sorry. They don't get a free pass. Religious parents don't deserve exception here. Every parent who circumcises has their reasons, and whether they're cultural, aesthetic, or spiritual in nature the result is the same: A child is irreparably harmed. They mean well, but good intentions don't make the action any less damaging.
Some parents "believe" hitting their child with a belt or locking them in a closet or drugging them with Benedryl to get them to take a nap is perfectly acceptable. Some parents believe it's okay to leave your child in a hotel room while on vacation in a foreign country and go a few blocks away for dinner. Some parents believe it's okay to bind a little girl's feet so they'll be attractive to a mate. Some parents believe it's beneficial to forgo any medical treatment for a seriously ill child-including lifesaving antibiotics and blood transfusions-and instead pray their child to death. Some parents believe in forcing children to handle poisonous snakes as proof of faith. The list goes on and on...
NO. Belief, faith, religion, whatever doesn't justify child abuse. Every child, regardless or gender or race or country of origin or religious preference of his or her parents has a right-a basic, inalienable human right, in the absence of unavoidable disease/medical indication-to grow up with a healthy, whole, intact body.
I honestly don't care whether an adult wants to cut off their own right leg, both nipples, or knick their nose for God or as a symbol of faith or because a voice or vision told them to. That's fine. Their body, their belief, they're choice.
Children deserve to have their rights and physical well-being protected until they are old enough to make the same decision for themselves.
some are told that the are committing child abuse by NOT circing their sons
And I'm sure some grandparents and communities would say that not circumcising a little girl or not beating sense into your child with a stick is abusive. Common sense still applies; belief, faith, voices, and visions will never justify child abuse. Good intentions do not make the physical act any less damaging.
Circumcision is amputative surgery, it removes blood vessels and nerves, it strips erogenous tissue, it changes the way the penis functions. The reasons don't change that. Circumcising infants denies them a lifetime of true religious freedom.
are you going to take on the entire Jewish community, which has withstood millenia of hardship and suffering, most recently surviving an attempt of genocide in the holocaust? do you really think they are naive? people who survive such batterings are not naive. If they can withstand a holocaust (at the hands of non-circd men, btw) then I think they can survive the onslaught of the anti-circ mob.
Not granting Judaism a waiver is not anti-Semitism, in fact, it's the opposite:
Jewish children are just as deserving of human rights as any other child.
They are they same.
They are equal.
They are just as human, just as valuable and precious and worthy of protection.
Jen
Well, I have children that could potentially hate me for not doing it, but hey....I'm damned if I do and damned if I dont.
If I make the choice to do it, they could turn around and hate me.
If I make the choice not to do it, they could turn around and hate me.
Yes. In the Jewish community, there are grown men who despise their anti-circ Jewish parents for not giving them a Bris. They exist. There are clinics in Israel that grown men go to to get done - some in very old age. They go in droves.
It is very easy for someone who can make that easy choice of no, like yourself, who has no religious or medical pressure on their back.
Emotional blackmail is emotional blackmail is emotional blackmail. There aint no other way around it.
the saying "walked a mile in my shoes" springs to mind, and MN, that is something you have never done.
this is emotionally draining for me.
have you ever been alienated from ALL of society and ALL of your family? otherwise, I cannot relate to a single word you say.
sorry. my life is pretty screwed up at the moment, because of this issue, and people like you are just really adding to the problem.
can anyone tell I'm having a REALLY BAD DAY???????
MotherNurture
09-12-2007, 03:53
Becca, I'm sorry you're having a bad day. I'm also sorry that this issue is causing you a lot of personal stress right now, and you're right, I don't know what it's like to experience the kind of pressure that you're under.
What it comes down to though is that he *can* always make the decision later in life if he so chooses; you describe intact Jewish men going back to Israel to have it done "in droves". Their body, their choice---I support that fully, if it's something spiritually significant and valuable to them. That's what religious freedom is all about, right? Being free to believe and worship as *you* choose? Circumcision imposes faith on a child in a very intimate and permanent way; it's a brand, carved into flesh.
There are also an increasing amount of Jewish men who resent having the decision stripped away as infants; there are even Jewish anti-circ organizations. I think that the heat is going to continue to rise with regard to this issue...it's in the news all the time now, being publicly discussed and debated.
People are questioning. They're processing. They're rethinking. I think that's a very good thing.
I do not think that parents who circumcise are evil or intend harm, I think they are usually doing what they feel is best with the information they have at the time and in the case of religious circumcision, also often because they are under intense family and community pressure. Protecting your child's future physical and religious autonomy is sometimes the harder road initially, no doubt. You are an incredibly conscientious mother, I can tell. If you weren't, this decision wouldn't be such a struggle.
BTW, I loved the blinky in your signature when it said, "You create your own reality."
The new one ("alienated") is both unfortunate and ironic.
Peace to you,
Jen
Bewitched
09-12-2007, 05:50
I don't feel any threads on circumcision can be run without people abusing other people's opinions (and that is only natural unfortunately, touchy subject and all), so i normally don't really contribute, but i just wanted to say i think Becca has enlightened me about a few things i found interesting, and to me my opinion will always be that i don't think it's necessary - i don't go into the whole 'abuse' or 'not abuse' debate, i look at it like samsmum has said "Why change something that is functioning ok?" , that's all ;)
stellarella
09-12-2007, 07:08
I do think circumcision (without pressing medical reason) is abuse. To cut off a portion of a boys genitals without his express consent, without him understanding what is happening and for no pressing medical reason is abusive.
Seekrit - It doesnt trivialise abuse because it IS abuse. Would you call the surgical removal of the female clitoris abuse? Would you call the surgical removal of a baby boys ear abuse?? What is the difference? One is socially acceptable. One is not. Why??
They both abuse the childs trust in his parents. They both abuse and violate his body. They both abuse the power his parents have over him.
Becca - I'm sorry, you know I adore you and I do not pretend to understand your position however there comes a time when a mother has to protect her children. Make decisions for THEIR welfare above everything else and be the strong party for their sakes.
Circumcision is wrong. There is no question about it.
If in this small worldof BH we have met so many men who are traumatised by their circumcisions, you hold so much hate in their hearts for what was done to them them what would make you think there are not more men like this all over the world.
Women talk about birth trauma because we are a different 'species' altogther. Women are known for talking, crying on others shoulders, working through pain by communicating. Men are the complete opposite of this. This difference between us the butt of many jokes about men and women...you know, "men are form mars, women are from venus"....all that stuff. But essentially it is true. Men handle their emotions and feelings differently. They are often loathe to express themselves.
moonblossom
09-12-2007, 08:03
Ok ok, I admit I can fly off the handle on this topic. I am passionate about this topic and cannot seem to shake my hate of it.
I was sitting in on a Childbirth class when this subject came up, the doctor, even though he had his three sons done, was against circumcision. Why? because it is pointless, painful and it is his job to fix up the stuffed ones.
his opinion was this, and I totally agree. If it MUST be done for one reason or another, do it after 6 months when they can be put under, when they don't have to suffer the incredible amount of pain they would endure otherwise. He had his son's done to 'follow a trend', and he regrets this decision.
I'm sorry you are having such a hard time atm Becca, but you are your sons protector, your son can always get this done on religious grounds when its HIS CHOICE. My mother was one of the first jewish women to say NO to circumcision, and yes she was frowned on, but she held her ground, she didn't see the point. Does it prove her son would love God more if he cut his foreskin off? hmmm.
Anyway, ultimately it is your choice, I really do wish you all the strength to come to the right decision.
MotherNurture
10-12-2007, 10:47
I'm sorry you are having such a hard time atm Becca, but you are your sons protector, your son can always get this done on religious grounds when its HIS CHOICE. My mother was one of the first jewish women to say NO to circumcision, and yes she was frowned on, but she held her ground, she didn't see the point.
:yes:
:hugs:
Jen
the_queen
10-12-2007, 11:10
Also, the question is " it circ an abuse of the rights of the child"
http://www.unicef.org/crc/files/Rights_overview.pdf
Article 19 and 34 and 36
mischief79
10-12-2007, 13:41
DH and I talked about what to do if we had a boy. DH is circumsised and he wanted the same for his son. (I know, a bit prehistoric). We discussed why we wanted it, and it was mainly for cleanliness and (shock horror) appearance. I have to admit that I've never seen an "uncut" one.
But now I'm a mother. When my daughter cries and she is in pain and there is nothing I can do - it's heartbreaking and I feel physically sick that I cannot take her pain away.
We want to have more children, hopefully one of them will be a boy. But what will we do about circumsision? DH still wants it, but my views have changed. If I can't take away the pain my baby already feels, why should I add to it?
I am neither for or against. I believe it is a personal decision. Its not quite the same, but what about the people who pierce their babies ears at only a few weeks of age? Surely that hurts too (I know, different scale!)
serendipity22
11-12-2007, 08:34
DH is circumsised and he wanted the same for his son.
This is very common situation. Circumcised men can feel very insecure about the possibility of having a son who has something he hasn't (and a little jealous).
Its often easier for them to have their son circumcised than to let these feelings come up. (The circumcisions of today justify the circumcisions of yesterday.)
There is an article on this
http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/vincent/vulnerability_of_men.html
Fuchsia!
11-12-2007, 08:49
DH and I talked about what to do if we had a boy. DH is circumsised and he wanted the same for his son. (I know, a bit prehistoric). We discussed why we wanted it, and it was mainly for cleanliness and (shock horror) appearance. I have to admit that I've never seen an "uncut" one.
But now I'm a mother. When my daughter cries and she is in pain and there is nothing I can do - it's heartbreaking and I feel physically sick that I cannot take her pain away.
We want to have more children, hopefully one of them will be a boy. But what will we do about circumsision? DH still wants it, but my views have changed. If I can't take away the pain my baby already feels, why should I add to it?
I am neither for or against. I believe it is a personal decision. Its not quite the same, but what about the people who pierce their babies ears at only a few weeks of age? Surely that hurts too (I know, different scale!)
Ok i am not having a dig at you personally, but i have highlighted the sentences that stand out to me. There are so many people that say them things and i just cannot understand how someone can use these as an excuse to cut off a newborns healthy skin!
I mean my babies ears stick out a little so im not going to go and get them pinned back while he is a newborn just for appearance sake?
And the one about "just so he can look like his father" is just incredibly not a valid reason.
The only time i will understand circ is when someone gives me a valid reason.
I can't understand why people think that male circ is not as bad as female circ. To me they are both the same.
The newborn child cannot make decisions for himself so the parents will decide what has to be done. If this is an abuse of the rights of the child and needs to be illegal, then so should the ablility to baptize your baby.
The baby has no say in getting baptized, yet people do it (obviously) for religious reasons, as well as circumcision (mostly). But of course, where I live, we have the freedom of religion. Why take away this "god given" right because some people think its wrong? Don't have it done! Circumcision has been practiced for YEARS, mostly from religious reasons. Even if doctors do it less and less now adays, people still get it done.
I've heard arguments stating that every mammal has foreskin. Every mammal reproduces, even circumcised males. So we aren't taking away from mammals called 'humans' because they still can reproduce.
So I don't see how this is an abuse of the rights of a child. I don't see why we have to take religious rights away from people. Circumcision is legal because its been proven as good thing to have done. (Why was it invented in the first place) (or Why did "god" invent it in the first place?)
sam's mum
16-12-2007, 10:50
I am in the uniting church and when I had my daughter baptised it was a promise by myself to raise her christian, a promise by the church to support me and a welcome of her into the church family.
If she wants to become a member of the church she will make this decision herself when she is older and undertakes the study required to complete her confirmation.
There is no comparison between this process and removal of the foreskin. She is able to choose for herself which religion (if any) she wishes to follow and then undertake the required study to become a member of that church.
Having your foreskin restored? not at all the same.
the_queen
16-12-2007, 15:05
:yes: Thanks Jane, well done, you've given a much much more polite response than I could muster :mad:
I'll just say this - pouring water on bubby's head vs slicing genitalia :detective:
The newborn child cannot make decisions for himself so the parents will decide what has to be done. If this is an abuse of the rights of the child and needs to be illegal, then so should the ablility to baptize your baby.
Baptism has absolutely no effect on the baby whatsoever, pouring water over its head does nothing except make its head wet for a little while. You are quite welcome to baptise my child into any religion you want, I don't believe any of it anyway so it has no effect on him or me. You cannot remove any parts of his body or do anything that has a permanent effect on him, this includes tattoos and piercings. But pouring water over him and saying a few words, yep, no worries.
And besides that, my nanna is religious and she says that you shouldn't baptise babies anyway, people should be baptised of their OWN FREE WILL in her religion and apparently it says it in the bible, yes the bible, the same one everyone uses, not a special one for her religion, just the everyday normal one.
So, you are right on both counts in that case.
This is very common situation. Circumcised men can feel very insecure about the possibility of having a son who has something he hasn't (and a little jealous).
WHAT??
Oh ok.. and you have surveyed how many men who feel insecure or jealous over their sons foreskins......?
My DH is fine with his cired penis.. and I'm certainly fine with his circed penis.
And I'm sure our boys future wives will be fine with their circed penises.
RedPanda
17-12-2007, 02:52
I think permanently altering a newborn's body through surgery without a medical need is an abuse of the rights of a child.
I think because it is so ingrained in our culture, it is just an accepted ritual. I don't think parents of circ'ed boys are abusive. I know some extremely gentle, loving parents who have circumcised their sons.
neostudded
17-12-2007, 03:02
I think permanently altering a newborn's body through surgery without a medical need is an abuse of the rights of a child.
I think because it is so ingrained in our culture, it is just an accepted ritual. I don't think parents of circ'ed boys are abusive. I know some extremely gentle, loving parents who have circumcised their sons.
I agree very much with what you have said. :yelclap:
forbetoel
17-12-2007, 10:05
I think permanently altering a newborn's body through surgery without a medical need is an abuse of the rights of a child.
I think because it is so ingrained in our culture, it is just an accepted ritual. I don't think parents of circ'ed boys are abusive. I know some extremely gentle, loving parents who have circumcised their sons.
This is exactly how I feel...EXACTLY!
MotherNurture
17-12-2007, 17:45
The newborn child cannot make decisions for himself so the parents will decide what has to be done. If this is an abuse of the rights of the child and needs to be illegal, then so should the ablility to baptize your baby.
Applying water to a child and cutting off parts of their body are very different acts, regardless of the motivation/spiritual significance. Now, if the water for the ritual was boiling, and caused pain/disfigurement/scaring, *that* would be more comparable to amputative surgery.
The baby has no say in getting baptized, yet people do it (obviously) for religious reasons, as well as circumcision (mostly). But of course, where I live, we have the freedom of religion. Why take away this "god given" right because some people think its wrong? Don't have it done! Circumcision has been practiced for YEARS, mostly from religious reasons. Even if doctors do it less and less now adays, people still get it done.
Actually, circumcision of non-consenting male and female children is mostly done for cultural reasons. Those who oppose it are pro-personal choice.
I've heard arguments stating that every mammal has foreskin. Every mammal reproduces, even circumcised males. So we aren't taking away from mammals called 'humans' because they still can reproduce.
The same argument could be made for female circumcision; so long as she can still breed, who cares? I care. Sex isn't just for procreation, it's also for pleasure.
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2006.06685.x
So I don't see how this is an abuse of the rights of a child. I don't see why we have to take religious rights away from people. Circumcision is legal because its been proven as good thing to have done. (Why was it invented in the first place) (or Why did "god" invent it in the first place?)
Children are people too.
If an adult wants to be circumcised in accordance with their faith, I fully support their right to do so. Circumcision isn't legal because it's been proven "good" anymore than slavery had been proven "good" before it was criminalized. It's legal because we're culturally conditioned to accept it. "God" didn't invent foot binding or FGM, either.
Jen
Circumcision is legal because its been proven as good thing to have done. (Why was it invented in the first place) (or Why did "god" invent it in the first place?)
Yes, it was thought to be a good thing at one point :yes:
It's popularity in western culture rose in victorian times to stop masturbation; The removal of the foreskin has been proven to decrease sexual pleasure, so the decrease in sexual pleasure was thought to decrease the likelihood of the boy masturbating and therefore going to hell (since masturbation is a sin). This was seen as a very good thing.
We live in more enlightened times now and most parents don't actually want to decrease the sexual pleasure their sons experience as adults. So, although circumcision was viewed as a good thing at one point, our definition of "a good thing" has now changed.
Other countries/cultures have used it for different purposes, - such as cleanliness - that aren't relevant to us due to sanitary conditions we live in and frequent bathing.
So it's not surprising that circ the rate is dropping. Times change. Lots of religious practices change over time due to various factors. This is only one of them.
The newborn child cannot make decisions for himself so the parents will decide what has to be done. If this is an abuse of the rights of the child and needs to be illegal, then so should the ablility to baptize your baby.
The baby has no say in getting baptized, yet people do it (obviously) for religious reasons, as well as circumcision (mostly). But of course, where I live, we have the freedom of religion. Why take away this "god given" right because some people think its wrong? Don't have it done! Circumcision has been practiced for YEARS, mostly from religious reasons. Even if doctors do it less and less now adays, people still get it done.
I've heard arguments stating that every mammal has foreskin. Every mammal reproduces, even circumcised males. So we aren't taking away from mammals called 'humans' because they still can reproduce.
So I don't see how this is an abuse of the rights of a child. I don't see why we have to take religious rights away from people. Circumcision is legal because its been proven as good thing to have done. (Why was it invented in the first place) (or Why did "god" invent it in the first place?)
Ummm there is absolutely no comparison between baptising a child and circ'ing a child. None.
Circ'ing is NOT a 'god given' right. Its an outdated practise that is, in most cases, completely and utterly unnecessary.
Can you please provide current research that suggests, in our country, culture and current time that circ'ing is ' a good thing to have done?"
To answer the OP- yes, in my opinion- it is abuse.
Its taking a sharp implement and slicing a piece of their anatomy off-without consent. That adds up to abuse in my books.
An ex-boyfriend of mine was not circumsised at birth. Interestingly, when he started having sex (some years later obviously!), he found it painful because it was excrutiatingly sensitive. He ended up electing to have a circumcision at around age 20, and that was pretty awful - he couldn't even have a sheet on him. Anyway he recovered and sex improved for him after that because his penis ended up being a bit 'number' IYKWIM.
I've also worked with an aged care nurse and he was telling me that the infections that geriatric men who are uncircumsised get is just horrific.
That's just some anecdotal stuff - despite all that, if I had a son, I still couldn't circumcise him - I just can't get my head around doing that to him. I'd much prefer to leave it up to him and if he had problems later on then he could deal with it.
How much does the father's opinion factor in to people's decisions? I know I'd have a massive fight on my hands because DH is one of those 'I am so any son of mine would be too" types.
Sorry for the ramble..:ecomcity:
the_queen
21-12-2007, 22:24
For me, if the father of my son insisted on having him circumcised, it would be an absolute deal-breaker for me.
Pippi Longstocking
22-12-2007, 06:08
How much does the father's opinion factor in to people's decisions? I know I'd have a massive fight on my hands because DH is one of those 'I am so any son of mine would be too" types.
The father of my boys did try that cr@p. I told him it wasn't going to happen. I asked him if we also ought to get the baby's eyebrow pierced and nflict on him all the other scars that would make him look like his father too.
There was a fantastic male midwife on when I had my first son and I had a chat to him about it, explaining my ex partner's insistence that my baby be circumcised and my even stronger insistence that he be left unharmed. The midwife was so lovely, he spent ages going through all the info they had there and deliberately left out any of the "pro" arguments. :laughing: He then sat down with my ex when he next came in to visit and talked to him about it. My ex wasn't happy but he did drop the issue.
The compromise was pretty bad - my poor little man ended up with the most awful middle name and despite my effort to conceal the fact that I dislike the name intensely, Jake hates it with a passion. He has asked to have it changed legally. :o Poor kid, but at least he has an intact doodle! :D
diesal444
22-12-2007, 07:22
I can't understand why people think that male circ is not as bad as female circ. To me they are both the same.
:iagree:
I've also worked with an aged care nurse and he was telling me that the infections that geriatric men who are uncircumsised get is just horrific.
How much does the father's opinion factor in to people's decisions? I know I'd have a massive fight on my hands because DH is one of those 'I am so any son of mine would be too" types.
If a geriatric patient gets infection after infection would that be because he cant 'clean' it properly? If thats the case, then to me that may suggest that if the patient is unable to care for his anatomy, then the nurses have to do it for him.
On the fathers opinions.....when we found out our first baby was a boy, as we walked out of the ultrasound rooms...i said...oh great, now we have to have an argument on circ.
My dh (i was expecting him to want our son done) said- "there will be no argument, our baby will not have that inflicted on him and that is that- dont even suggest it"
I just said 'oh, ok" and let him think he won an argument. I had no intention of having it done to our child either. My dh is done- its not a relevant argument to say that he has to look like his father.
I dont ever understand that at all. Why do they have to look like them? If, say for arguments sake, the father had a small nose and the baby's was large? Would they then have it modified? A nose job? No? Why not?
If a geriatric patient gets infection after infection would that be because he cant 'clean' it properly? If thats the case, then to me that may suggest that if the patient is unable to care for his anatomy, then the nurses have to do it for him.
I agree Roopee - I think he was talking about the men who were at a high level of care, so you'd have to look at those who were administering that care..
I dont ever understand that at all. Why do they have to look like them? If, say for arguments sake, the father had a small nose and the baby's was large? Would they then have it modified? A nose job? No? Why not?
I know I think its not a very well thought out opinion myself. My DH doesn't see himself as having abuse inflicted on him, he just thinks that this is what was done and everything works so all is good. He believes what he's been told about it (its cleaner etc). and has never questioned it.
MotherNurture
26-12-2007, 03:15
I know I think its not a very well thought out opinion myself. My DH doesn't see himself as having abuse inflicted on him, he just thinks that this is what was done and everything works so all is good. He believes what he's been told about it (its cleaner etc). and has never questioned it.
I think this is a perfect example of why letting a man make the circumcision decision because, "he's the one with the penis" is so illogical. Men, circumcised at birth have no idea what they're missing; they have no point of reference.
It's so much like the FGM issue where circumcised midwives and women who have no concept of what sex-normal, intact sex-is supposed to be like perpetuate the practice with their own daughters, grand daughters, nieces, etc.
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
Circumcised men have a *need* to believe that they weren't harmed by circumcision, that a foreskin is just a flap of extra skin that's difficult to clean and women are disgusted by. Questioning circumcision forces men to consider that maybe, just maybe there's something wrong with circumcision, and, in turn, their own penises. The frequent initial knee-jerk reaction that junior MUST be circumcised because he is is simply a defense mechanism.
Jen
MotherNurture
26-12-2007, 03:26
WHAT??
Oh ok.. and you have surveyed how many men who feel insecure or jealous over their sons foreskins......?
My DH is fine with his cired penis.. and I'm certainly fine with his circed penis.
And I'm sure our boys future wives will be fine with their circed penises.
But many men aren't fine, particularly when they get educated about normal penile anatomy and realize that most of what they've heard-and come to believe-about foreskins is flat out wrong. Times are changing. The internet is an amazing tool; information about circumcision and it's effects is at men's fingertips like never before. And women? Women are becoming informed, too.
There is no way to honestly and confidently say that circumcised boys will never come to question or resent what was done to their primary sex organ, irreversibly, without their consent, as defenseless babies. There is no way to know, with any degree of certainty, that their wives will be appreciative of their permanently and constantly exposed glans and circumcision scar.
Jen
Pippi Longstocking
26-12-2007, 06:00
Circumcised men have a *need* to believe that they weren't harmed by circumcision, that a foreskin is just a flap of extra skin that's difficult to clean and women are disgusted by. Questioning circumcision forces men to consider that maybe, just maybe there's something wrong with circumcision, and, in turn, their own penises. The frequent initial knee-jerk reaction that junior MUST be circumcised because he is is simply a defense mechanism.
Yep, precisely! :yelclap:
Men place a lot of importance on their penises - to admit that their own is less than perfect would be extraordinarily difficult for them to do. It is easier to perpetuate the damage rather than admit that they have been violated.
You know what...
I think women think about this topic a lot more than men do.
:p
I think guys just think... It's my penis, it works for me.. it gets me laid and geez it feels good.;)
I don't think they actually spend much time thinking about being circed or not circed.
That's just my observation.... :D
MotherNurture
26-12-2007, 14:32
You know what...
I think women think about this topic a lot more than men do. :p
I think guys just think... It's my penis, it works for me.. it gets me laid and geez it feels good.;)
I don't think they actually spend much time thinking about being circed or not circed.
That's just my observation.... :D
True, but I think it's mothers who a.) Have the ultimate duty to protect their children from unnecessary pain and harm, b.) Typically have to sign the consent for for circumcision, and c.) Have to do the post op wound care & diaper changes. Heck, in the U.S. it's frequently obgyns who do the surgery while still in the hospital, hours or days after birth and it's often billed as maternity care.
We have the ability, opportunity, and IMO the responsibility to make this genital cutting tradition obsolete. It can stop now. It can stop with us. By the time our grandchildren arrive this can be a non-issue.
Women are legally protected from non-consensual, non-medically indicated genital reduction surgery. If we truly believe in and advocate gender equality we defending our son's right to genital integrity should be a priority.
You are right though, men don't often give the issue a lot of thought and when the want their son's circumcised because they're circumcised there typically isn't a logical, rationale, reasonable reason for it. That's why we should absolutely not blindly defer that decision to them simple because they, too, have a penis.
Children aren't possessions; the penis in question doesn't belong to either parent.
Jen
pookiesossige
26-12-2007, 22:06
Gee Jen, you write some really amazing stuff.
Keep it up.
Your Blog is highly impressive and eye opening too. :yelclap: :goodvibes:
:iagree::yes: Go Jen! My DH loves your posts too, he really identifies with 99% of what you say :thumbsup:
Blueberry Crumble
26-12-2007, 22:59
There are varying degrees of "abuse".
Yes, circumcision IS abuse.
This is very common situation. Circumcised men can feel very insecure about the possibility of having a son who has something he hasn't (and a little jealous).
Eh? Very common situation? :confused:
You know what...
I think women think about this topic a lot more than men do.
:p
I think guys just think... It's my penis, it works for me.. it gets me laid and geez it feels good.;)
I don't think they actually spend much time thinking about being circed or not circed.
That's just my observation.... :D
:iagree: :yelclap:
MotherNurture
27-12-2007, 02:25
Gee Jen, you write some really amazing stuff.
Keep it up.
Your Blog is highly impressive and eye opening too. :yelclap: :goodvibes:
:iagree::yes: Go Jen! My DH loves your posts too, he really identifies with 99% of what you say :thumbsup:
:hugs:
Awww, thank you both.
Jen
ShadyCharacter
27-12-2007, 10:07
You know what...
I think women think about this topic a lot more than men do.
:p
I think guys just think... It's my penis, it works for me.. it gets me laid and geez it feels good.;)
I don't think they actually spend much time thinking about being circed or not circed.
That's just my observation.... :D
Majority maybe. I wouldn't want my son to grow to be one of the ones who IS traumatised by my bad choice. If I leave him intact and he decides I made the wrong choice, he can change it. If I circ him and he is unhappy with my decision, there isn't a damn thing he can do about it.
I have a male friend who is circumcised and a passionate anti-circer. He isn't disfigured or disturbed, his penis works and looks just fine. But he has the wisdom to see that it is pointless and painful, and yes, in his eyes, abuse. He thinks his mother made the best decision she could at the time, but as an adult, he now knows better, and no son of his would ever be circ'ed. He doesn't think there is anything 'wrong' with his penis, but he also knows that it was perfect the way it was before.
Yes, on a whole women care more, but that is because we have such a strong desire to protect our young. I don't have a preference one way or another when it comes to circ'ed/uncirc'ed sexual partners. Neither is any cleaner/nicer to look at/less likely to give me AIDS, etc..... but NO-ONE has the right to surgically alter my son without his consent :shame:
*My DP's response to your statement is*
"Spoken like a person without a [penis]"
;)
:D My DH's response to her statement was
"Finally some sense."
I am gonna ask around and see what other men think about this issue and will also ask their wives.
There is no way to honestly and confidently say that circumcised boys will never come to question or resent what was done to their primary sex organ, irreversibly, without their consent, as defenseless babies. There is no way to know, with any degree of certainty, that their wives will be appreciative of their permanently and constantly exposed glans and circumcision scar.
Jen
Ah the good 'ol fear of the unknown strategy, easy to defend, not based on fact and espoused by a person with no formal qualifications in the area espoused.
Could we perhaps just stick to the facts?
Pippi Longstocking
28-12-2007, 08:00
Ah the good 'ol fear of the unknown strategy, easy to defend, not based on fact and espoused by a person with no formal qualifications in the area espoused.
Could we perhaps just stick to the facts?
I think what MN was saying is indeed a fact - there is no way to know if boys will grow up to question/resent their parents decision to have their foreskin removed. Fact.
This has strayed a little from the OP, which related to an article that debated whether circumcision constitutes abuse or not. Can we get back to discussion along those lines?
Cheers
I think what MN was saying is indeed a fact - there is no way to know if boys will grow up to question/resent their parents decision to have their foreskin removed. Fact.
Always admired your ability to spin.
xkwzit is correct that this thread has again meandered off topic to the whim of a few. It is instructive however as to the methodology of a few on the anti-circ crusade, in that there is more than enough hard, factual evidence in circulation to merit their position. However yet again we get back to fear and scare.
I thought this was the part of the forum where people could discuss the issue of circumcision and those who were for or against could state their views more explicitly in the other sections. I say this because from the above a lot of it is strongly "anti" and I am looking for some objective guidance on the subject.
From the above, the views on circumcision also indicate that other "cosmetic" medical procedures would be considered by many of you to be abuse (eg example given of having ears pinned back). What about braces, tongue tie, removal of birthmarks? This puzzles me as we have many decisions ahead of us as parents and we can't hold them all off until our child is old enough to decide for themselves ie isn't that the role of the parent, and we decide as best we can, rightly or wrongly, without fear of being labelled "child abusers"?
Understanding the differences of opinions .
My 3 eldest boys are circumcised... They have not been 'abused'...
A very inappropriate way to describe a choice a parent has made for her child regarding what they feel may benefit them....
It's a piece of skin that can cause many problems later in life which medical circumcision then is far more painful and longer recovery times...
3 men in both sides of my family have had some very nasty problems resulting in having to be circumcised and my ex-husband and myself made the decision to circumcise when they were one year old...
My eldest boys are 11, 10 & 7... I have discussed it with them and explained why it was done... As much as they can at this age, they understand...
My hubby to be is not circumcised and our 6 month old will not be circumcised... I want him to be but i have to respect where he is coming from...
My 2 cents...
Pippi Longstocking
04-01-2008, 13:47
(eg example given of having ears pinned back). What about braces, tongue tie, removal of birthmarks?
The things you mentioned are anomalies and surgery/intervention is sometimes warranted to correct these anomalies to return them to a perceived sense of "normal". A foreskin is NOT an anomaly. It is a healthy functioning part of the genitals.
I thought this was the part of the forum where people could discuss the issue of circumcision and those who were for or against could state their views more explicitly in the other sections. I say this because from the above a lot of it is strongly "anti" and I am looking for some objective guidance on the subject.
From the above, the views on circumcision also indicate that other "cosmetic" medical procedures would be considered by many of you to be abuse (eg example given of having ears pinned back). What about braces, tongue tie, removal of birthmarks? This puzzles me as we have many decisions ahead of us as parents and we can't hold them all off until our child is old enough to decide for themselves ie isn't that the role of the parent, and we decide as best we can, rightly or wrongly, without fear of being labelled "child abusers"?
im not for or againt circumsision i dont have sons if i do they wont be sirced but im not totaly anti or for it
But i would juat like to ask how is surgical corecting tongue tie on the same line as taking away part of baby boys genitals, A lot of babies born with tongue tie can not feed at all and alot that have no issues feeding stil go on to have speech trouble and yes some never have a problem, but i just dont get how corecting something like tongue tie is the same my DD had her tongue tie clipped and beleive me it was so not for cosmetic reasons or just cause we felt like it it was something that needed to be done, same goes with braces etc the one to corect teeth are made becuase the teeth have come through incorectly, and the braces for legs wich i realy hope you was not refering to are to help people like my dd and other people walk better so again not on the same line KWIM
I dont think that circumsistion is abuse it find that a very strong word but at the same time i do not see routine circ as a medicaly needed surgery
serendipity22
06-01-2008, 15:06
and I am looking for some objective guidance on the subject.
I believe that if one is really honest and objective, they will be opposed to this particular form of unneeded surgery.
It is usually considered abuse for a stranger to touch a child's genitals. A med student recently got into big trouble for just touching a young boy's genitals.
If restraining a baby boy, touching them up to give them an erection, carving off the most sensitive parts of the penis, (and its not just skin, its flesh, muscle, blood vessels and tens of thousands of nerves) is not abuse then what is?
In the good old USA, infant circ capital of the world, in most cases anestheia is usually inadequate or not at all.
4fabbokids
11-01-2008, 11:23
Im only new to bubhub and I am quite saddened to read the really aggressive attitudes of some people on the subject of circumcision.
I have 3 sons and one daughter. My boys are 16, 13 & 7..my daughter is 10. All my boys are circumcised - and I will never regret our decision.
After reading about the men who are traumatised because they were circumcised I asked my older boys and DH what they thought and if they were feeling depressed or emotionally torn because they had no foreskin. After receiving a very strange look they thought I needed to be certified - they really had no idea of what I meant, being depressed or sad because they had no foreskin was a complete and utter alien train of thought to them. They said it was stupid and suggested I was reading too many of those new age metrosexual books!! They couldnt stop laughing and decided to compose a little jingle about their missing foreskins!!!.....so, I came to the conclusion that their foreskins, or lack there of had never bothered them let alone caused emotional problems.
I would suggest that many of these men who miss their foreskins may have many other problems in their lives and the fact that they have no foreskin is the least of their problems.
I am not, nor I have ever abused my children - nor have I ever not respected their rights as human beings.
To say that I abused my sons by having them circumcised is utter rubbish. I think we need to focus on the situations where there is real abuse rather than on an operation that is legal and a PERSONAL CHOICE.
In reference to the argument that it is equivalent to female circumcision is rubbish as well. Female circumcision prevents the girl from having any pleasure from sex, male circumcision is simply the removal of a piece of skin which results in no disturbance of sexual or urinary function at all.
My sons were all circumcised on day 2 or 3 in hospital. I was allowed to be present when my 3rd son was done - I feed him straight away as I did with all of the boys. They all sleep the day away as newborns do. They felt no pain when urinating as the little plastic 'helmet' protects the head of the penis until it is healed. The little 'helmet' fell off soon after we returned home from hospital with all 3 boys.
I think we need to allow people to make choices without labeling them with ridiculously outrageous names.
I would suggest that many of these men who miss their foreskins may have many other problems in their lives and the fact that they have no foreskin is the least of their problems.
and i would suggest that neither you nor your children know understand what a foreskin is.
ShadyCharacter
11-01-2008, 14:04
I thought this was the part of the forum where people could discuss the issue of circumcision and those who were for or against could state their views more explicitly in the other sections. I say this because from the above a lot of it is strongly "anti" and I am looking for some objective guidance on the subject.That may be because in all of my looking (and I have looked), the pro-circ mob have failed to come up with ONE practical, evidence based 'for' argument for routine infant circumcision.
4fabbokids
11-01-2008, 14:57
and i would suggest that neither you nor your children know understand what a foreskin is.
Um, sorry - but I do know what a foreskin is and its "purpose". My kids and DH know what a foreskin is - my eldest son attends boarding school in Sydney and has seen circumcised and uncircumcised boys and actually said to me after I asked him today if he missed his foreskin that he was pleased that he was circumcised, he said that in his opinion a circumcised penis looked better - I am simply quoting my 16yr old son. Im not casting judgements on the appearance of an uncircumcised penis.
It is indeed a Personal Choice, one that should be made by the owner of the foreskin.
You took away his right to make this choice for himself
Of course Im going to make choices for my children - I doubt if any child would choose to be immunised, go to school, learn manners etc etc so - my husband and I have to make these decisions for them because they arent capable of making these decisions....we made a decision to have our boys circumcised because we believe that it is better for them in the long run. We have seen one too many older boys having to be circumcised which added to our decision making.
I just dont understand how a man can be traumatised because he was circumcised by well meaning loving parents - you cant seriously think that this is true for the majority of circumcised men.
In regard to the female circumcision I presume you mean any sexual or physical dysfunction a man may have after circumcision. Id love to read any reliable research...
WorkingClassMum
11-01-2008, 15:13
I've never seen sexual dysfunction in either a c. or non.c male and ahmmm, I've been there a few times........ (wild 20's)
My son is 6. We never actually discussed C'ing him - neither of ever considered it - he already looks enough like his Dad (thank god the milkman looks like TOH :laughing:)
My bro#1 was adamant about having his son done to "look like Dad". I pmsl, and asked was he also going to get his son a large nose and an ugly attitude as well? He laughed and never got his son done.
I personally have never understood the need.
If you want to have your son done - well and fine for you - it's b/w you and him in years to come and I've never heard of a C Male having an issue
If you want to leave your son as nature intended - that's your call as well. It can be done later if the boy wants - but I've never heard of anyone adult having it done except for medical needs
4fabbokids
11-01-2008, 17:58
I am looking for some objective guidance on the subject.
sorry..I was going to give an example on our experience but got sort of waylayed!
There are a couple of things Id advise you to do if you are contempating circumcision. Before the baby is born its a good idea to discuss the option with you OB, GP or whoever is helping you with the pregnancy. If the OB is dead against the idea than I would advise you look for advice from a practioner who stands the middle ground on the subject - they will then be able to give information which is unbiased.
In my experience having the baby done on Day 2 -5 is the best time to do it. The trend now seems to be to leave the operation until the baby is 6 - 12mths old - in my opinion the older the child the more painful it will be...
Another little snippet of advice I would give is that if you do decide to go ahead with circumcision - dont tell anyone of your intentions. Its obvious by the opinions on this thread that people can be very judgemental when discussing this situation. When we decided to go ahead with it we told only the people that needed to know - being a new Mum is hard enough without needless negative opinions....
good luck!
sleepymummy
11-01-2008, 18:21
Also done before I think it was the age of 2 weeks they have not developed the ability to pin point pain, and so it is not as painful. They just dont feel right, rather than knowing what is going on.
I did not book my son in till after he was born, so it could not get done till week 3, but he did just fine. A touch whingy that day by the next morning fine.
Peadiatricians do it after 6 months generally. And where I live I hear they have made it illegal for anyone other that a pead to do it. Which really upsets me, as 3 weeks old is to late for me, let alone 6 months, I would rather it be done in the first week.
I chose this for a number of reasons, I dont think it matters what they are as someone will disagree. I had a lot of opposition to my decision, and no help at all in finding someone to do it, just a lot of ringing around.
Maybe make up a list of what YOU see as pros and cons and sit down with that to decide.
neostudded
11-01-2008, 18:27
OJandMe I recently brung up the topic around some males and it didnt go down to well.I felt really bad for bringing it up I didnt realize it would be such a sensitive topic.
This thread has strayed a bit from the topic, which was an article that debated whether male circumcision is abuse or not.
Feel free to start discussion on other circ topics in new threads, but future offtopic posts on this thread will be deleted.
Cheers
the_queen
12-01-2008, 01:54
Also done before I think it was the age of 2 weeks they have not developed the ability to pin point pain, and so it is not as painful. They just dont feel right, rather than knowing what is going on.
(attn X - look at me, being really really polite here)
sleepymummy - I'm wondering if you can please expand on this statement you have made. I would like to know what evidence you have to support this statement. I disagree with what you're saying.
the_queen
12-01-2008, 01:56
I ask the above question because if there is credible and reliable evidence to support this claim, then the rights of the child are perhaps not being abused when circumcision or any other non-anaesthetised surgery is done in the first 2 weeks of life.
delirium
12-01-2008, 07:54
.... then the rights of the child are perhaps not being abused when circumcision or any other non-anaesthetised surgery is done in the first 2 weeks of life.
I'm not entering into this debate at all, all I want to say is the statement over and over that it's done without anesetic and hurts the baby is untrue. My son (and every boy I know that's been circed for years) was given numbing cream then a local. My son didn't cry when he weed, infact he didn't appear to have any discomfort, and babies cry if they are in pain. If we are going to discuss whether circ is abuse I think we need to get the facts right on what actually happens in the procedure.
greengables
12-01-2008, 07:56
While I would never circumcise a son of mine, circumcising boys is something that doesn't anger me as much as it does others. Personally I couldn't put a baby through the pain and discomfort but I wouldn't consider someone to be a child abuser or taking their son's rights if they decide to do it.
A lot of men who have been circumcised really don't care. They have no ill feelings towards their parents whatsoever.
On the other hand, I know someone in my family (I won't name names) who was not circumcised and he tells his parents all the time that he wished he had been but feels it's too late now and there would be no point.
I was glad to read that a lot of Muslim families are waiting until their sons are older before they do it. That's a good thing :)
:iagree:
4fabbokids
12-01-2008, 11:12
sorry xkwzit..you are right - we have got off topic a bit - we should start a thread on how the actual procedure is done with parents offering opinions on their experience.
Back on topic - as many people have said on this thread, abuse is a very harsh description. I think that we as parents have to make many difficult decisions for our children, some which will make the child sad, uncomfortable and will hurt.
Children dont have rights in many parts of our society until they reach a required legal age eg voting, drinking, sexual relations etc etc - and reason is becuase they dont have the maturity, experience and thought processes to make informed decisions in certain aspects of their lives.
Circumcision is one of these, DH and I made a decision for our boys based on our experience and knowledge. We still and will always believe that it was the right decision and by no means infringed on their rights as a human being.
So no, cicumcision is not infringing on the rights of a child. Like many other decisions which may cause pain it is done for the future well being of the boy. In my opinion the arguments against circumcision seem to contradict what I have seen. I know of countless boys who have had to be circed because of a variety of medical reasons later in life.
the_queen
12-01-2008, 11:30
I'm not entering into this debate at all, all I want to say is the statement over and over that it's done without anesetic and hurts the baby is untrue. My son (and every boy I know that's been circed for years) was given numbing cream then a local. My son didn't cry when he weed, infact he didn't appear to have any discomfort, and babies cry if they are in pain. If we are going to discuss whether circ is abuse I think we need to get the facts right on what actually happens in the procedure.
Oh you are right :yes: a local anaesthetic in the penis does constitute pain relief. Sorry that I implied otherwise.
My question to sleepymummy is can you please provide some evidence to back up your claim that babies do not understand pain in the first 2 weeks of life? I would be very interested to read such information. Because if what you say is true, then what delirium says is unecessary - why have a local anaesthetic in the penis if pain is not comprehended? I am genuinely interested in reading this research/evidence.
delirium
12-01-2008, 11:33
I do think they feel pain at 2 weeks Queen - thus the local and cream. I would never have had DS done without it.
the_queen
12-01-2008, 11:35
Thanks - I assumed that you were of that opinion. And I agree with you, pain is felt by people of all ages.
But I'm wanting another poster to back-up her earlier claims. This is the "Discuss It" section and is for debate, not just emotional justifications.
sleepymummy
13-01-2008, 13:30
I ask the above question because if there is credible and reliable evidence to support this claim, then the rights of the child are perhaps not being abused when circumcision or any other non-anaesthetised surgery is done in the first 2 weeks of life.
Sorry been offline. I dont have material to show you or point you too.
The dr that did my DS, explained it to me. It was 5 months ago now, that it was explained to me. All I can remember is that before 2 weeks they cannot pinpoint pain. He did explain why he thinks that, it was not just his thoughts it had come from somewhere. He did not say they did not feel pain, just that they could not pinpoint it, and so it was not as extreme. The cream only numbs part of what they cut, and the pain killers are used to make the parents feel better, but hardly do anything.
Wish I could explain more but I really can't.
The Dr also clearly explained the complications that could happen and made sure we fully understood the reasons why people are against circs. The discussion was not at all biased.
Fuchsia!
13-01-2008, 18:55
i remember someone telling me that too, i didn't believe it though. Otherwise they wouldn't scream their lungs out when they have that needle in their foot. The heal pr!ck
Opinionated
13-01-2008, 22:16
I can't believe circumcision of infants is legal. I don't think anyone has the right to modify their child's body for religious or social reasons. Tattoos are illegal on minors! I find the whole thing abhorrent and a definite abuse of a child's rights.
sleepymummy
14-01-2008, 08:53
what happens if you choose to do it for medical reasons. To avoid medical complications later in life, and the extended healing time and trauma that would be caused by a 10 year old needing the procedure.
I take great offense to being called a child abuser for choosing to do the right thing by my son.
ShadyCharacter
14-01-2008, 10:36
what happens if you choose to do it for medical reasons. To avoid medical complications later in life, and the extended healing time and trauma that would be caused by a 10 year old needing the procedure.Can I ask if you got your sons appendix removed? If not... can I ask why not? If his appendix rupture later in life, it is absolutely excruciating pain, why not just get them out now, while they can't 'pin point' pain?
I have read numerous articles about 'do newborns feel pain'...
It has been proven by numerous studies that newborn babies do feel pain and it is actually more intense that what an older child or adult may feel...
This was based on studies of the central nervous system...
The more unfortunate side to this is that although the central nervous systems pathways and baby's brain are able to process the pain it is not mature enough to understand what to do with it and cannot effectively release 'pain dampening' endorphins...
Studies/research on 'Pain in Neonates' are available on the internet to be read...
WorkingClassMum
14-01-2008, 21:37
... All I can remember is that before 2 weeks they cannot pinpoint pain. He did explain why he thinks that, it was not just his thoughts it had come from somewhere. He did not say they did not feel pain, just that they could not pinpoint it, and so it was not as extreme. ...
I don't think you are an idiot - and I am not attacking you - but the comment from your Dr is probably the most insane I have seen in this thread.
Does it matter that they can't pinpoint the pain ? - the fact is that the Dr. is therefore obviously inflicting pain somewhere and admitting it.
When I have massive migraine, I cannot always pinpoint the pain - but believe me - I have PAIN.
When I have back spasms, the pain travels and I have shooting pains - OMG they are excruitating - I have pain
The general gist is that even if a little baby doesn't know how to quantify their pain - the pain is still being inflicted!
the_queen
14-01-2008, 21:37
Thanks essjay
babies DO feel pain and not a study in the world wil make me beleive anything else
the _queen - :thumbsup: Your welcome...
My Mum is around here somewhere with some goods on how MUCH pain affects newborns. She should pop up soon! :D
She was a midwife for over 20 years, she also witnessed circumcisions being performed and absolutely, they feel excruciating pain, to the point where they vomit and go silent from extreme shock. :)
I also note it as interesting that you would say that a topical application of anaesthetic as appropriate for this type of procedure. Have you ever had a needle after a topical application of local? It still hurts, ALOT.
As for the penile block they are given, can you imagine the pain of that injection in a penis? I cant imagine a more painful injection, and i have had many.
I would say the restraints their tiny bodies are held down with would be "uncomfortable". Having their foreskin clipped, cut and torn away from their penis im sure would be painful, to a child or man of any age. :thumbsup:
Go watch a few you tube video's on it. Then tell me they dont "feel" pain.
Perth Pony.... My bubba did this when he had severe reflux pain.... He vomited and went completely quiet with shock..... I'll never forget it and when i think about it i want to cry....
the pain babies feel is very real and it's horribly unkind that Circumcision is being done without adequate or NO pain relief, let alone straight after birth (these are my opinions people)...
Is this seriously still happening?... Can someone tell me?
As i said... My boys were circumcised when they were one.... I can't so anything about that now, but i damned made sure that they got every amount of pain relief that was safe to give....
And by their recovery and very happy nature afterwards i can not thank the medical staff enough for the care my son's received...
I have to be honest and say the i am sitting on the fence again in regard to circumcision....
My partner does not want 'our' first child to be circumcised and i am not going to make an issue of it.... Actually i'm starting to feel quite relieved i don't have to make that decision...
x x
Mum of Midgeys
30-01-2008, 16:09
I'm a first time mum to be, and a little confused when faced with the question to circumcise or not.... I've asked my partner (who is) what he would like to do should we have a boy, and was greeted with a response of a shrug of the shoulders and 'what's the purpose of it?'. Honestly I was not sure and replied that I thought it was to do with cleanliness...to help stop infections in younger children. So we shrugged again, and decided that yes, we probably would. Then, I spoke to my director at work (I work in childcare), who has a son, and she told me that she was going to have her son 'done', but then told me of the pain to the child. I wasn't aware of this... I assumed any procedure would be done with adequate numbing of the area... However, (after all that babbling!) I am still confused. What is the purpose of circumcision and why has there been such a shift in the amount of people getting it done? (I have done the reading into the cons -which are convincing! - I just want to be fully informed about our final decision :) )
sam's mum
30-01-2008, 16:24
I'm a first time mum to be, and a little confused when faced with the question to circumcise or not.... I've asked my partner (who is) what he would like to do should we have a boy, and was greeted with a response of a shrug of the shoulders and 'what's the purpose of it?'. Honestly I was not sure and replied that I thought it was to do with cleanliness...to help stop infections in younger children. So we shrugged again, and decided that yes, we probably would. Then, I spoke to my director at work (I work in childcare), who has a son, and she told me that she was going to have her son 'done', but then told me of the pain to the child. I wasn't aware of this... I assumed any procedure would be done with adequate numbing of the area... However, (after all that babbling!) I am still confused. What is the purpose of circumcision and why has there been such a shift in the amount of people getting it done? (I have done the reading into the cons -which are convincing! - I just want to be fully informed about our final decision :) )
I researched circumcision and in terms of the risk of infection everything that I read indicated that the there is a greater risk of side effects from the circumcision than there is of getting an infection. I don't have the figures to hand anymore, but they shouldn't be too hard to find.
meeknmki
30-01-2008, 16:52
hi guys
im 17 n have a lil boi who is 13months old and i had asked my partner as i really didn't understood wat it was coz it was never explained to me n we didnt have it dun. but my dad n his partner had a baby boy in november last year n they had him dun at 6 weeks. i didn't see the purpose of it at first but when my step mum explained that they did it for hygenic reasons i understood why. if only id thought of that with my boy i may have considered it too... as my dp doesnt like the idea of having to show him that sort of stuff
sam's mum
30-01-2008, 17:08
hi guys
im 17 n have a lil boi who is 13months old and i had asked my partner as i really didn't understood wat it was coz it was never explained to me n we didnt have it dun. but my dad n his partner had a baby boy in november last year n they had him dun at 6 weeks. i didn't see the purpose of it at first but when my step mum explained that they did it for hygenic reasons i understood why. if only id thought of that with my boy i may have considered it too... as my dp doesnt like the idea of having to show him that sort of stuff
I would recommend doing your own research to make sure that you are happy with the decision that you make. In terms of your dp not wanting to show him that sort of stuff.... umm, that's what parents do.
MotherNurture
30-01-2008, 17:10
Boys and girls have to be taught hygiene. They have to be taught to brush their teeth and comb their hair. They have to be taught to wash their armpits and between their toes. Why should the genitals be any different? Girls have *more* folds of skin 'down there' but we'd be appalled at the suggestion that it be a parental choice to remove a female child's labia and clitoral hood without a true, pressing medical indication. IMO, we shouldn't have surgery done on children to avoid having to teach them something so normal and simple; that's beyond laziness.
Care of intact boys is really, really simple. When he's little, you just wipe off the outside like it's a finger. When babies are born, the foreskin is attached to the head of the penis (glans) and the tip is snug; nature designed it that way so he can urinate but foreign material/germs stay out. Trying to retract the foreskin before it's ready can cause pain, tearing, and scarring. The first one to retract a boy's foreskin should be the boy himself. When he's older and the foreskin has naturally loosened and can be comfortably be retracted (sometime between toddlerhood and adolescence), all he needs to do is, "Retract, Rinse, Replace" in the shower or bath, that's it! It's easier than tying shoelaces. :)
Jen
Mum of Midgeys
30-01-2008, 18:00
Thanks Jane and Jen - I appreciate the honest information :) I've done a bit more research, and made the decision that it's not for our son (I'm not making a pro or against comment - just not for us! :) ) Thanks for your help!
sam's mum
30-01-2008, 20:29
Thanks Jane and Jen - I appreciate the honest information :) I've done a bit more research, and made the decision that it's not for our son (I'm not making a pro or against comment - just not for us! :) ) Thanks for your help!
happy to help. the way I see it, I can always get it done later if I really have to, but I can't take it back once it is done. so until there is some desperate need, it can stay the way it is.
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