The Debate!!!

[Freya]

Wow howard looks like he is about to cry!! Did anyone else see his legs shaking like crazy! Kevin is being cocky as hell lol...

Anyone else watching it?

[AquaDevil78]

Yep loving it.


Howard usual scare tactics are not working ROFL... Go Kevin stick right up him!

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

[JumpingBean]

Yeah, Johnny's not getting a good reception huh?
I'm not that bothered with it tho, just on in the background...

[Freya]

Yep loving it.


Howard usual scare tactics are not working ROFL... Go Kevin stick right up him!

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


haha he is struggling hey... kevin keeps coming back with great responses to everything he says!!

[Mahjong]

OK, Watching it during "Bingo" ads.

ENOUGH on the economy already! There are MORE keys issues than the economy!

[icugal]

I was only watching it so that I didn't have to watch that stupid Bingo show.

But now that Kath and Kim is on (even though it's a repeat and I own all the DVD's)... I'll watch that now :)

[Freya]

All I really care about is what affects the environment and especially what affects ALL families.

I think Rudds promise of the tax cuts and holding it off for high income earners to use that money for things this country NEEDS is really really great...

[amumslove]

Is anyone else irritated by little Johnnies:barf: voice and what is with all the arm waving.

[amumslove]

He flat lined talking about Bush:smiliedance:

[Mum&bubs]

I've only just started watching it, does look like he's out to cry huh! :laughing:

[Kizmet]

this is a great debate. Has just strengthened my vote for Kevin Rudd 10 fold!

Love his stand on the issue on apologising to Aboriginal people:smiliedance:

[AquaDevil78]

Howard = :sleeping::sleeping:

Rudd = :smiliedance::yelclap:

[Lollie86]

Just tuned in and have a silly question....whats the little thing with arrows at the bottom the screen mean? :o

[amumslove]

I think Howard is gettin a bit scared:yelclap:

[AquaDevil78]

Just tuned in and have a silly question....whats the little thing with arrows at the bottom the screen mean? :o

That is "The worm"

Its a gauge of the audience reaction to what each leader is saying :thumbsup:

[Lollie86]

That is "The worm"

Its a gauge of the audience reaction to what each leader is saying :thumbsup:

So when its white and up the top is that positive?

[our little treasures]

GO KEVIN. He is great...:yelclap:

[Kizmet]

oooo we watched sky news no worm here but how did it go? mainly in rudd's favour or howards?

[RedPanda]

I think the worm will have Rudd as winner, however people should remember that the worm is just the opinion of a tiny handful of individuals who do not represent majority opinion. The worm is a commercial TV add-on because the debate isn't entertaining enough (although why anyone seeking entertainment would be watching a televised political debate is beyond me!).

Sorry - I have issues with the worm. I think it has hijacked important political discussion this week, and it's disappointing that preoccupation about a television charting feature has taken so much media and public attention away from important matters.

ETA: Vent over :D

[SammieSnail]

Sorry - I have issues with the worm. I think it has hijacked important political discussion this week, and it's disappointing that preoccupation about a television charting feature has taken so much media and public attention away from important matters.

ETA: Vent over :D

Couldn't agree more.
My statistics lecturer would have a field day!

[amumslove]

Worm or no worm Kevin gets my vote:yelclap: :smiliedance:

[Phyllis Stein]

I watched ABC coverage, so no controversial worms. :D Apparently Ch9 weren't allowed to have the worm, and had their coverage cut, but they used a pirated stream instead!

Anyway, as Hazellew said, it's just the opinion of a small group of swinging voters. According to the ABC analyst, Howard was very unpopular overall, whereas Rudd was very popular. Wish the election was tomorrow instead of 5 weeks away!!!

[Kizmet]

the sky news experts just said that Kevin Rudd won!


im not fussed by the worm doesnt mean much to me, just wanted to know what it said because there was such a kerfuffle about it this week

[Freya]

OMG that was awesome!!



How sad a 17 year old spending her week counting down to an election debate....:o

[charlen49]

i ended up watching sky and i agreed that kevi did very well..and johnny was nt so good...sorry havent read any of the posts..probably repeating myself..had a quick look at voting on a number of news sites and they all have kev ahead! What the hell was johnny thinking with his closing arguement..very poorly done..and a lot of the officials agreed with this pt!

[RedPanda]

Wish the election was tomorrow instead of 5 weeks away!!!

Yes, I really don't see the point in holding the debate so early in the campaign. So many more issues are going to be raised in the next few weeks.

[SassyMummy]

I've yet to watch it... but I taped it (yes, how sad).

I'm quite embarrassed at how interested in this election I am... I never thought I'd be "the type" to care. Seems I'm not much of the "the type" I thought I'd be in many areas of my life...lol. :rolleyes: :p

I did flick over during Australian Idol though... and the bits I saw had JH fumbling and bumbling and lisping? I didn't know he lisped... only slightly. He had lots of "erring" from what I saw.

Rudd spoke with confidence, as if he'd thought about the exact answer well and truly before the debate. Good - I'd like a leader with a bit of forethought. :thumbsup:

Will watch the rest in a moment...

[Kizmet]

sassymummy I am shocked by my interest as well. I would previously rather ripped my teeth out pain killer free than watch the election debate but i really enjoyed it

[lotti]

I'll be voting Howard, but I thought they both lacked in the debate.

[charlen49]

Yes, I really don't see the point in holding the debate so early in the campaign. So many more issues are going to be raised in the next few weeks.
they usually have more than one debate..i like having issues debated early and through out the election period..gives us a better idea whats going on throughout iykwim!

[charlen49]

I'll be voting Howard, but I thought they both lacked in the debate.
did you only watch the debate..or are you still watching the wrap up?

[missie_mack]

I can now see why Howard wasnt keen to debate. He really couldnt keep his cool all that well and Rudd just comes across cool calm and collected. I am actually a little disappointed I have seen Howard debate in much better form than tonight (even as a non liberal supporter)

I am also a bit shocked about the worms cord being pulled. Whether you like the worm or dislike the worm it is only the opinion of the crowd watching and shouldn't affect peoples votes.

[charlen49]

I did flick over during Australian Idol though... and the bits I saw had JH fumbling and bumbling and lisping? I didn't know he lisped... only slightly. He had lots of "erring" from what I saw.

...:laughing: he's famous for his stuttering!!!!!

[amumslove]

I can see why Johnie doesn't want to do anymore debates and why he didn't want this one.:D :laughing:

[lotti]

did you only watch the debate..or are you still watching the wrap up?

Oh I turned over after I finished cringing for both of them. :laughing:

[charlen49]

Its amazing to think that someone can think so well on there feet and for a leader of our nation you need to be able to have a great understanding of the issues and i think Rudd clearly did that..:thumbsup: ..i know i couldnt do it:no:

[charlen49]

Oh I turned over after I finished cringing for both of them. :laughing:ok everyone to their own ..i quite enjoyed it..and its funny when you have thoughts in your head and then hear other people repeat those thoughts out loud( in the after wrap up)..spooky!!!!!!!

[Mamaduke]

How terribly mature of those poking fun at a person's lisp and/or stutter :rolleyes: would be different if it were your children with it though I'd suspect.
I thought this was going to be a mature and relevant discussion on the debate, I was obviously wrong.

[Kizmet]

im not talking about his stutter mamaduke:thumbsup: didnt notice it to be honest but i really enjoyed the debate:thumbsup:

[Pippi Longstocking]

Mamaduke, I won't poke fun at his lisp or stutter (my son used to have quite a strong stutter but fortunately grew out of it) but I will point out that bumbling and fudging responses didn't make him look like the strong, collected intelligent leader we need.
I was actually quite shocked at how old and sick JHo looked. A far cry from cool as a cucumber Ruddy!

[charlen49]

Mamaduke, I won't poke fun at his lisp or stutter (my son used to have quite a strong stutter but fortunately grew out of it) but I will point out that bumbling and fudging responses didn't make him look like the strong, collected intelligent leader we need.
I was actually quite shocked at how old and sick JHo looked. A far cry from cool as a cucumber Ruddy!
so true!!!!!!!!

[lotti]

Hey, I think thats an insult to cucumbers! :laughing:

[Kizmet]

great post guv!

[SassyMummy]

How terribly mature of those poking fun at a person's lisp and/or stutter :rolleyes: would be different if it were your children with it though I'd suspect.
I thought this was going to be a mature and relevant discussion on the debate, I was obviously wrong.

Sorry MD, I wasn't trying to make fun of his lisp... I just didn't know he had one, and was quite shocked to hear it! Shows how closely I've been listening in the past...:p

He did fumble and mumble though, and didn't seem terribly confident... and it just made me feel less comfortable with him being the leader of our nation.

[charlen49]

I thought this was going to be a mature discussion , . ????if politics isnt childish at times why did john howard have to tell kevin to 'grow up'

[amumslove]

????if politics isnt childish at times why did john howard have to tell kevin to 'grow up'

Politicians always act like spoilt brats:laughing:

[SassyMummy]

I'm watching the debate now... and I must say, how very immature are Peter Costello and Alexander Downer, giggling like teenage boys in the audience (while Kevin Rudd speaks)? :shame:

Reminds me of school...

[IAdoreYou]

FWIW (for what it's worth) Kim Beasley and Mark Latham won there debates also in previous years! Need I say more...?

I ended up watching the debate, I personally think
Kevin Rudd talks way too much about "climate change" YES we "all" need to pull up our socks on this matter, so does the "world" mother mature has her own agenda and that's a fact, we have NO population growth here in Australia, I think we should be putting more energy into the "growth" we have i.e. small business owners with families, SAHM's with a working partner. Definately keep the awareness of climate change very much up there, but, we definately don't need to spend millions on it, especially when we don't have a population growth, that's why we have a baby bonus in place too "encourage growth". I was quite frankly expecting Kevin Rudd to give alot more, he didn't have much at all.
So, I'm afraid Liberal still gets my vote!

John Howard, Peter Costello (love his grin) and Alexander Downer are a force to be reckoned with right now!

EDIT - yep, I can't spell :)

[charlen49]

I'm watching the debate now... and I must say, how very immature are Peter Costello and Alexander Downer, giggling like teenage boys in the audience (while Kevin Rudd speaks)? :shame:

Reminds me of school...dont worry they got reprimanded by the debate judicator!


John Howard, Peter Costello (love his grin) and Alexander Downer are a force to be reckoned with right now!sorry lisa but were you watching the same debate?:eek:kevins focus was the future..johnny came across as an angry old man with no real direction for our families or our future..his summation indicated how confused and out of reality he really is!

[Mamaduke]

dont worry they got reprimanded by the debate adjudicator!

Yes because KRudd 'dobbed' on Costello.:laughing:

[charlen49]

Yes because KRudd 'dobbed' on Costello.:laughing:actually if you were watching carefully it was before kevins comment on costello..and a well put comment too..poor johnny didnt have the 'speaker' of the house to drop his bottom lip to!..thats what his problem was.....'ah mr speaker i object.....':laughing:

[IAdoreYou]

I guess what I'm hoping is that "Peter Costello" will lead this country oneday, that's why I can't seem to sway!!!
night night girls .. you are all very passionate, I love it!! I think a female should have been up there tonight :)

[amumslove]

actually if you were poor johnny didnt have the 'speaker' of the house to drop his bottom lip to!..thats what his problem was.....'ah mr speaker i object.....':laughing:

:yelclap: :laughing:

[charlen49]

I guess what I'm hoping is that "Peter Costello" will lead this country oneday, that's why I can't seem to sway!!!
night night girls .. you are all very passionate, I love it!! I think a female should have been up there tonight :)im hoping julia will do it some day!;) go girl power..night night Lisa!!

[Roopee]

Hmmm i thought that KRudd stuttered and stumbled a little too? I didnt think he looked that confident to be honest- more smug and ew to me- i found that a turn off.

I also think he went over the same things over and over and think his "mr Coward oh, i mean Howard" mumbling was pathetic.

They both acted like school boys and it sucked from both of them.

Oh, and if i hear the "education revolution" "fresh approach" thing ONE MORE TIME:hair:.

[amumslove]

I guess what I'm "Peter Costello" will lead this country oneday,
night night girls .. you are all very passionate, I love it!! I think a female should have been up there tonight :)

:laughing: That was the funniest thing I have heard;)
It's great to be able to debate.:yelclap:

[charlen49]

ah but better than ..we dont need go ahead with the rest of the world we need to go back to the dark ages..according to little johnny..i agree with u in one sense tania..to beable to get up there and to think on your feet is a terrible hard thing to do for both men..mummbling , stuttering is all part of that! I commend them both..as i know i couldnt do it..and heres something to ponder these men earn 180,000 a year to lead a country..the head of an electricity company gets 500000 a year..the head of COKe aus gets millions..hmm go figure:rolleyes: ..anyhow enjoy your discussion ladies..i have ..im off to the land of nod!!!!:wave:

[forbetoel]

I'm watching the debate now... and I must say, how very immature are Peter Costello and Alexander Downer, giggling like teenage boys in the audience (while Kevin Rudd speaks)? :shame:

Reminds me of school...

I know, that really annoyed the hell out me!!!
Any way the reason why Howard always does so bad in the debate, is because he is made to answer every deal breaker he has made over the last 4 years, he has no leg to stand on in any issue, he looked like a lost kid. Kevin was great and had me thrusting my fist in the air during the show. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[charlen49]

I know, that really annoyed the hell out me!!!
Any way the reason why Howard always does so bad in the debate, is because he is made to answer every deal breaker he has made over the last 4 years, he has no leg to stand on in any issue, he looked like a lost kid. Kevin was great and had me thrusting my fist in the air during the show. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:same here!!!!!!!

[Roopee]

back in the dark ages in regards to what though?

I didnt see anything really to suggest that?
Apart, that is from the move towards a Unionist workforce?
Im not being smart here, i honestly didnt see it?

[Josh]

I thought that Kevin spoke very professionally, I admire him so much,John Howard had to have his back up team of costello and downer in the audience like 2 little 8yr old school boys, what a joke they are the sooner they go the better.

[Roopee]

Or perhaps they were just there to support their Minister?

[SassyMummy]

I think perhaps whoever aired it may have been a labor voter... simply because they showed Downer and Costello acting like children. There would have been the option NOT to air that (although it was live, there would have been numerous cameras all filming simultaneously).

I don't really have a problem with that, as I'm a labor voter and am quite thrilled that Costello and Downer were caught out for behaving in such a manner.

I think both JH and Rudd said some things which were a tad childish, but really, it was THEIR debate... I think THEY could handle it however their please. The debate was between Rudd and Howard, NOT Rudd, Howard and his little side-kicks...

Though, when you think about it, perhaps Costello SHOULD have been up there too... after all, if he's going to be taking over from Howard, we might as well find out what plans HE has...

[forbetoel]

I think perhaps whoever aired it may have been a labor voter... simply because they showed Downer and Costello acting like children. There would have been the option NOT to air that (although it was live, there would have been numerous cameras all filming simultaneously).

...

I would have to disagree, that was too good a t.v moment not to air, no matter who you voted for. I felt like throwing my shoe at the television when I saw them chuckling together.

[Freya]

I watched it on sky also, so didnt see the worm but I don't really see the point in the worm anyway.

I don't think that whoever put it together was definately a labor voter... Did you see when they would catch Kevin smirking and rolling his eyes then writing down notes... I thought the filming was pretty neautral...

If only I was born a year earlier I could vote! :thumbsdown:

[Mamaduke]

I thought the fact that Costello and Downer where there (and weren't there others too?) showed a united team.
KRudd's majority trade unionist team probably didn't show because they weren't getting penalty rates.
Pity we didn't cross to the carpark, we would have probably found them all out there chanting,
"Whadda we want?" :eek:

[Freya]

Pity we didn't cross to the carpark, we would have probably found them all out there chanting,
"Whadda we want?" :eek:


PMSL!:laughing:

[Phyllis Stein]

Roopee, I believe Rudd simply mixed up his words - the word he mixed 'Howard' up with started with a 'C', though I can't remember what it is ATM... I do this often enough myself, and truly don't think it was purposeful.

My highlights: :thumbsup:

Rudd's answer to the Indigenous question at the end. He came across very genuine, stressing respect and bridgebuilding, yet serious about addressing actual poverty/ inequality.

Rudd's commitment to the 60% carbon reduction by 2050, and his statement that interim targets will be based on science.

Howard admitting (!) that he supported the reforms by Hawke/ Keating that enabled the current prosperity.

Howard's pledge to help pensioners and low-income people adjust to higher energy costs. But what's with the climate fund starting after 2011?

My lowlights: :thumbsdown:

Howard showing just how far the debate has come when he said that human activity had *some* impact on climate change. :rolleyes:

Howard's argument that the Labor party having 70% past union officials in the ranks is "unrepresentative" of the Australian population - er, um... what percentage of WOMEN are on either side's benches??

Howard's lack of a positive vision for the future. The resources boom will end Mr Howard and what then? At least Rudd realises that we can plan now for future prosperity - education, innovation, technology is all key, and a world class education system's a great start!

Howard's 'history' narrative plan for schools - our past (like that of many colonised countries) has more than just a few "blemishes". I'd hardly call the attempted extermination of the original inhabitants a "blemish". Yes, for a country to move forward, they must know their past - preferably without the soft-focus lens.

Howard avoiding the Iraq question. I don't particularly think the "prestige" of the west is the issue when deciding to withdraw troops.

Rudd's advocacy for "clean" coal. No coal is clean Mr Rudd. :shame:

Neither leader taking responsibility for the inflationary impacts of tax cuts. Good question Paul Kelly!

[Mamaduke]

OT a little...
who was the journalist who sat on the end who had the most divinely soothing voice?
I could have listened to him speak all night.

[borntobemummy]

I thought the fact that Costello and Downer where there (and weren't there others too?) showed a united team.
KRudd's majority trade unionist team probably didn't show because they weren't getting penalty rates.
Pity we didn't cross to the carpark, we would have probably found them all out there chanting,
"Whadda we want?" :eek:

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

[Phyllis Stein]

OT a little...
who was the journalist who sat on the end who had the most divinely soothing voice?
I could have listened to him speak all night.

*Peter Hartcher for PM!!!!* :D

Mmm, luffly voice. I could listen to him waffle on for hours! ;)

[rynosmum]

I thought the fact that Costello and Downer where there (and weren't there others too?) showed a united team.
KRudd's majority trade unionist team probably didn't show because they weren't getting penalty rates.
Pity we didn't cross to the carpark, we would have probably found them all out there chanting,
"Whadda we want?" :eek:

I agree. I think it was important that they were there showing support. Not smirking in my opinion but incredibly proud and pleased with the answers that Howard was giving.

In my opinion, the debate simply heightened my resolve of who I am voting for. The last concern that I had with the Liberal government was their choice to not ratify Kyoto - in fact, I didn't understand the decision until last night and it makes sense. Why ratify an agreement that doesn't include two of the major superpowers (and pollution-causing) countries in the world?

To me, Rudd used a lot of catchprases, repeated himself a great deal and still didn't instill confidence in me of his economic ability. They each referred to the other's poor history - John Howard apparently was a cr@p treasurer, Kevin Rudd has apparently voted against a number of key political reforms, ones he is supporting now. I am satisfied that if Howard was a **** treasurer, it was 30 years ago and in that time he has both learnt a lot and proved his budgetary performance - Rudd's poor decisions though have been made in the last 1-5 years. To me, that's an election backflip which puts doubt in my mind. If in doubt, I can't support.

As for Rudd's promised withdrawal from Iraq, he's only taking away the 500 combat troops and leaving the 700 security and naval personnel behind. Thie thing is, who the heck is going to be there to protect these 700 troops once the front force is taken away? He's leaving them to fend for themselves - I dont get that at all.

[Pippi Longstocking]

A very excellent summary Mahna Mahna! I agree completely. I yelled a Very Rude Word at the television when Howard started on his history narrative for schools. A few blemishes indeed! Attempted genocide, displacement on a massive scale, abuse, exploitation, sickness, death, slavery etc etc etc are harder minor blemishes!

Roopee, I believe Rudd simply mixed up his words - the word he mixed 'Howard' up with started with a 'C', though I can't remember what it is ATM...
I think it was Costello from memory? I too thought it was a slip of the tongue rather than a deliberate attempt to say Coward but who knows? It was certainly not on par with the two giggling gerties in the audience...

To me, that's an election backflip which puts doubt in my mind. If in doubt, I can't support.


I am genuinely curious then how you can vote JHo back in? He has consistently backflipped, lied and imo, given great cause for doubt on a massive scale. He has proven time and again that he is unworthy of trust. How can you tell when JHo is lying? His lips are moving...

[LovelyRita]

Couldn't agree more mahna mahna. :yelclap:

Also agree with you Guv'nor. There has been backflip after backflip with John Howard.

Rynosmum, how can you be sure that things are going to stay so peachy (for some ;)), if the Howard government is re-elected?

I thought the debate was ok. It turned out the way I thought it would but that's obviously no reflection on which way the election will go.

[charlen49]

I would have to disagree, that was too good a t.v moment not to air, no matter who you voted for. I felt like throwing my shoe at the television when I saw them chuckling together.they must have thought they were in parliament..united team balony..howard placed his 'goony' team directly in the view of rudd to put him off during the debate.(they werent on his side).another negative underhanded play..well done howard..he must have been packing it:rolleyes: Hilarious how low Howard will go!

[charlen49]

I thought the debate was ok. It turned out the way I thought it would but that's obviously no reflection on which way the election will go.true!

[melfunction]

If I had to vote tomorrow, it'd be Rudd. Purely because I heard the word "respect". To me, the word speaks volumes.
Howard has dodged around the indigenous issue for many years and last night his weak attempt at explaining 'ownership' was to me, laughable.

I am a first time voter in Australia. This is also the first time I have taken any great interest in politics, voting, government etc, most probably because I have kids now and I want to vote in their best interests.

I have more 5 weeks to be 'bought'. Let the games begin :D

[charlen49]

If I had to vote tomorrow, it'd be Rudd. Purely because I heard the word "respect". To me, the speaks volumes.
Howard has dodged around the indigenous issue for many years and last night his weak attempt at explaining 'ownership' was to me, laughable.

I am a first time voter in Australia. This is also the first time I have taken any great interest in politics, voting, government etc, most probably because I have kids now and I want to vote in their best interests.

I have more 5 weeks to be 'bought'. Let the games begin :D:thumbsup: i like your post..so true about the indigenous issues..isnt it funny that he cant adress those early issues but he do a 'payout' for marilinga? Is that because 'white' man was affected too?hmmmmmm

[Phyllis Stein]

In my opinion, the debate simply heightened my resolve of who I am voting for. The last concern that I had with the Liberal government was their choice to not ratify Kyoto - in fact, I didn't understand the decision until last night and it makes sense. Why ratify an agreement that doesn't include two of the major superpowers (and pollution-causing) countries in the world?


The Kyoto politics are much more complex IMO - that's just the 5 second 'soundbite' that's regularly put out there.

In some ways, the two superpowers aren't signing because Australia isn't.
The US is undermining the whole process, and Australia is giving credibility to their decision by joining them on the sidelines. We are internationally criticised for doing so, and rightly so. If we signed Kyoto, most commentators believe the US will have to follow suit. If the US sign up, China will follow - remember, China's not a democracy, so public/ political pressure can't force them to sign. The point is, Australia's seen as the decisive factor of if Kyoto succeeds or not.

Howard's policy of not signing is reprehensible IMO. If he wins again, serious investment in and real targets for climate change will be pushed back another three years at least, and that's time the world can ill-afford.

[spoon]

OMG that was awesome!!



How sad a 17 year old spending her week counting down to an election debate....:o

Elle, I am really glad you have an opinion. It is important and you are obviously very mature.

Now to the debate...

:yelclap: :yelclap: I really thought that Kevins plan of giving rebates for computers for school children was a great idea instead of giving people over $180,000 income tax breaks.

My previously Liberal voting :banghead: husband has now been converted!!!!

KEVIN07!!!!!

[Pippi Longstocking]

My previously Liberal voting :banghead: husband has now been converted!!!!



Yay! We can forgive his foibles because he has now seen the light and moved away from the dark side. :smiliedance: :D

[spoon]

And I can stay married:smiliedance:

[zenifa]

Just a thought that occurred to me whilst watching some of the debate last night...

When did "unions", whether being in one, working in one (past or present) or being supportive of them become a dirty word or a bad thing to do?

When did being "conservative" become the "in" thing? I think I will :barf: if I have to hear either Rudd or Howard brag about being "economic conservatives" or "conservatives" of any type.

Although I haven't read all the posts on this thread, just wanted to say I did agree with Guv'nor's post - esp about Howard being proud of the Australian story (genocide and oppression of our Indigenous people?) and also I am baffled as to how anyone could trust Howard and his Coalition team, let alone vote for them.

[Odessa]

It's fantastic to have such passionate and respectful debate on the forum, ladies! :yelclap:

I was very pleased with the leader's debate, I think Mr Rudd was very impressive and demonstrated precisely why he will be a great leader for this country. :thumbsup: Seems the rest of the country agree:

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22626164-29277,00.html

"Lasseters Sportsbook said Labor had firmed as favourite for the November 24 poll, down to $1.60 from $1.70 before the debate. The Coalition's odds weakened from $2.15 to $2.30."


(Apparently sports betting odds are the best indicator of outcome!)



http://www.smh.com.au/news/federalelection2007news/rudd-gets-a-wriggle-on/2007/10/21/1192940909336.html

[MariaO]

I thought the debate was okay. The format was so stilted that we did not get much straying from rehearsed narratives. I thought that Kevin was weakest when discussing climate change.
I thought John Howard started well but really looked dithering by the end of it. He was also the one to lose control on a couple of occassions.

The one comment that made my blood boil, was 'the prestige of the west' being used as a reason to stay in Iraq. How dare he! Our prestige being the most important aspect of a disaster that has caused the deaths of , what is it, 75000 or something like that, Iraqis. I could not believe that he said it.

[Kizmet]

If I had to vote tomorrow, it'd be Rudd. Purely because I heard the word "respect". To me, the word speaks volumes.
Howard has dodged around the indigenous issue for many years and last night his weak attempt at explaining 'ownership' was to me, laughable.

I am a first time voter in Australia. This is also the first time I have taken any great interest in politics, voting, government etc, most probably because I have kids now and I want to vote in their best interests.

I have more 5 weeks to be 'bought'. Let the games begin :D

good post :thumbsup:

[rynosmum]

I find it amazing that so many are applauding the Labor party 'committment' to Education and Health.

These are currently funded and managed by the State governments for the most part.

The state goverments who are Labor governments.

The Health system is in crisis.

The way that the Queensland State LABOR government has handled the entire Jayant Patel 'Dr Death' issue for exapmple is horrific. Staff were bullied, complaints were ignored, they could have googled his name and found a full history of the malpractice he had been part of in the US. At late as last week, the head of the hospital won't be pursued by the state LABOR government because the statute of limitations has expired...they left it too long - so no one is held responsible. Many people died and many more were maimed. This happened n Queensland, in our state hospital system, managed by the state LABOR government.

You bet you need to try and fix it Mr Rudd. You need to fix the mistakes being made and supported by your own party.

Take my $375 rebate toward a computer for my child (when he finally gets to school) and put it toward paying compensation for the people who have lost their loved ones, for goodness sake, someone in your government needs to take responsbility.

[MariaO]

The State Liberal Party in NSW has failed to balance it books once again this year and needs a tax payer helping hand. Do you think this reflects on the federal Liberal Party. In fact, do you think that the weakness of the Liberal parties at state levels reflect on the federal Liberal party?

I don't think that the state parties reflect on their federal counterparts.

[spoon]

Take my $375 rebate toward a computer for my child (when he finally gets to school) and put it toward paying compensation for the people who have lost their loved ones, for goodness sake, someone in your government needs to take responsbility.

Liberals proposal for this money is to give it to the rich in the form of tax cuts.:thumbsdown:

I will be taking that money and using it to educate my 5 children.

What is wrong with equalling the playing field here? Why should the rich get richer?

Howard has NO PLAN for the hospital crisis. Nor Water nor education.

[grass is always greener]

I thought Kevin Rudd spoke so well. He is a very articulate man. John Howard sidestepped a few questions which i think was what most expected.

With regards to the Coward comment, its getting harder to tell the difference, with costello noseing his way into JH's role, that he thought he would save time and make them a celebrity couple (Tomkat etc) and call them Coward. :laughing: THIS IS A JOKE!!!!

[rynosmum]

The State Liberal Party in NSW has failed to balance it books once again this year and needs a tax payer helping hand. Do you think this reflects on the federal Liberal Party. In fact, do you think that the weakness of the Liberal parties at state levels reflect on the federal Liberal party?

I don't think that the state parties reflect on their federal counterparts.

Sorry - do you mean Morris Iemma and his party? The NSW Premier? The LABOR NSW Premier and his party?:confused:

[rynosmum]

Liberals proposal for this money is to give it to the rich in the form of tax cuts.:thumbsdown:

I will be taking that money and using it to educate my 5 children.

What is wrong with equalling the playing field here? Why should the rich get richer?

Howard has NO PLAN for the hospital crisis. Nor Water nor education.

Correct - what IS wrong with an equal playing field? If some people choose to enter a trade, some to have a small business, some to be an employee etc, then why should those who achieve higher incomes be taxed higher? Why have some people been taxed 45% when others may get 30% or less? Is THAT equal?

If some people choose to have a small business, risk everything they own, still pay a higher tax rate than others....shouldn't they be able to get a bit of tax benefit as well?

What you are talking about is not fairness or anything 'equal'. What you are talking about is 'What's in it for you'. Do you not realise that if some of these other people had not been taxed so highly, their may not be the surplus for government assistance that there is today for your family?

Give people a break. Most people work as hard as they can for their families - why should only some people then get rewarded by a tax break? Do you know any small business owners? How many of them work a 9-5 day or can be a SAHM?

I know quote a few small business owners, my parents included. How dare anyone say that they don't deserve some tax breaks because they are the 'rich'. That's a very shortsighted view IMO.:no:

[forbetoel]

I find it amazing that so many are applauding the Labor party 'committment' to Education and Health.

These are currently funded and managed by the State governments for the most part.

The state goverments who are Labor governments.

The Health system is in crisis.

.

Yes and the Liberal party love it...someone to pass the buck to, someone to point the finger at. The Liberal government are in power, why haven't they done something about it?? Because it is so easy to hope that the state governments fail, and have someone, other than themselves to blame.

[LovelyRita]

I find it amazing that so many are applauding the Labor party 'committment' to Education and Health.

These are currently funded and managed by the State governments for the most part.


I don't applaued the Labor parties commitment to health and education, I think it is far from good enough. But really, a little is better than nothing.

Does John Howard have a plan for pre-school aged children? That's something I should probably look up.

When the federal government started funding education (30 years ago) it was to help out the states who were unable to provide what was necessary. The Howard government then changed the legislation so that it wasn't about the dire need for public education and more helpful to private. Now that is going backwards in my opinion. :yes:

I agree, the states certainly need to shape up, but that's not what this is about. It is about the federal election and what they are going to do. If the states aren't able to provide, the federal government should step up to the plate imo.

[forbetoel]

Does John Howard have a plan for pre-school aged children? That's something I should probably look up.

.

No he doesn't, but something tells me he soon will. I think it is John Howard who is playing "me too" with the Australian public. I am just loving how all of a sudden Howard is suddenly concerned about what most Australians have been over the last 11 years. That bloke sure is genuine:rolleyes:

[BlueGin]

It's fantastic to have such passionate and respectful debate on the forum, ladies! :yelclap:

I was a little confused about this comment after what I have read so far in this thread...



I was very pleased with the leader's debate, I think Mr Rudd was very impressive and demonstrated precisely why he will be a great leader for this country. :thumbsup:

Until now! :laughing:
Not an attack at you Odessa, I am just amazed at how tightly Labor voters seem to be able to keep their blinkers on! ;)

I am however worried about my future under either government, when did SAHM become such a dirty word? With the push to have both parents in every family in the workforce (because being a Mum isn't work, you know that!) incomes are higher and higher, and my little family sinks lower in to the mire... we just can't compete as a single salary family :crying:

[~Emmylou~]

I thought it was pretty much as expected, I think Kevin Rudd did well - he sounded confident and knowledgeable for the most part.

Howard sounded desperate, uncomfortable, negative and backwards looking. Nothing less than we have come to expect from him :)

I pretty much agree with mahna mahna's points so I won't repeat myself LOL.

Except to say that I was absolutely outraged by Howards attempt at the end to pretend that he has any interest whatsoever in reconciliation. GIVE IT UP MAN. You have had ELEVEN long years to do SOMETHING about this and you have done SQUAT. How DARE you use that issue to try to win your smarmy self votes.

Absolutely disgusting, I couldn't believe it.

[LovelyRita]

Except to say that I was absolutely outraged by Howards attempt at the end to pretend that he has any interest whatsoever in reconciliation. GIVE IT UP MAN. You have had ELEVEN long years to do SOMETHING about this and you have done SQUAT. How DARE you use that issue to try to win your smarmy self votes.

Absolutely disgusting, I couldn't believe it.
:yelclap: I was yelling at the TV by that point. :o

[melfunction]

The one comment that made my blood boil, was 'the prestige of the west' being used as a reason to stay in Iraq. How dare he! Our prestige being the most important aspect of a disaster that has caused the deaths of , what is it, 75000 or something like that, Iraqis. I could not believe that he said it.I was stunned by that also.

I also couldn't get why Howard mentioned the USA sooooo many times during his verbal diarrhoea.

BTW, I'm learning heaps more reading this than watching last night :thumbsup:

[forbetoel]

:yelclap: I was yelling at the TV by that point. :o

I was yelling at the t.v heaps:o
Like when Horward refused to give an answer to the question on if Australia is at a greater risk of terrorism now that we are in Iraq :banghead: :mad:

[Ashleigh<3]

I actually enjoyed Johnny during the debate.
I've always had my issewes with him and there was a lot he went into that I definitely do not agree with but I very much enjoyed how he handled it, he spent more time getting to the point then rudd did.

Rudd was the first to say, "and as johnny mentioned about my...". Rather then sticking to the original question.

My Mum was a member of her school debating team for five years and she kept pointing out the obvious methods between the two players and she was pretty disgusted in the worm.

I am 100% agreeable when John Howard mentioned that when you show weakness to
Al Qaeda they strike, unfortunately it's true.
I wish he would of explained his support of the war on terror further in depth.
He should have spoken about constitutionally recognizing aborigines.

I do raise a question to Rudd, considering he keeps preaching, 'I want Australia to be the most educated nation', (which I do support 100%), why was Rudd bagging out John Howard's colleagues and he mentioned something about their inadequate knowledge to help him run the country? What about Rudd's team? Ex union workers, at least half of whom have no university degree what so ever.

The reason I spent most of my time cringing during the debate was because I couldn't stand how much Rudd used his time speaking to ornament his promises.

To the labour supporters:

If Rudd is elected to be prime minister, do you sincerely believe he will fulfill his promises in raising the child care rebate to 50%?
Do you sincerely believe that all of these easily made promises are going to be achieved?
How will you react if not?

Obviously I am not in favor of labor but, if they are to be elected, I shall not play it a bad sport, I will do my best to look on the bright side and support Kevin Rudd.

I just hope, I really, really hope that with all these labor supporter's we have here on this site, a year from now, aren't starting whiny threads about broken promises and when or how can things be changed.

They say Johnny's done enough it's time roll on out, fair enough. I just hope Kevin Rudd truly lives up to these promises, he's conformed more then half of our nation onto his side and I don't want to see people let down, (although that is inevitable with either party because this is politics we're talking about).

[Mamaduke]

So tell me Labor supporters on this thread...
did you have to give back your 'worm' control box or were you allowed to take it home with you? :detective:



You lot are as biased as the 'equal spread of voters' last night! :laughing:

[LovelyRita]

So tell me Labor supporters on this thread...
did you have to give back your 'worm' control box or were you allowed to take it home with you? :detective:



You lot are as biased as the 'equal spread of voters' last night! :laughing:
I agree with you, I do think the audience was a bit biased. It didn't seem much like an equal spread to me at all. But what more can you expect from 60 Minutes? :laughing:

[ShadyCharacter]

To the labour supporters:

If Rudd is elected to be prime minister, do you sincerely believe he will fulfill his promises in raising the child care rebate to 50%?
Do you sincerely believe that all of these easily made promises are going to be achieved?
How will you react if not?
I believe that he is no more likely to break his promises than Jho is and has in the past. Difference is, I KNOW Jho is lying, I can only speculate if Krudd is. I would like to give him a chance to prove himself one way or another.

How will I react if he doesn't keep his promises? With resignation I suppose, that were were given two **** choices to run our country.

[Ashleigh<3]

I believe that he is no more likely to break his promises than Jho is and has in the past. Difference is, I KNOW Jho is lying, I can only speculate if Krudd is. I would like to give him a chance to prove himself one way or another.

How will I react if he doesn't keep his promises? With resignation I suppose, that were were given two **** choices to run our country.

Understandable, thank you for replying.

We'll all just have to wait and see.

[charlen49]

Yes and the Liberal party love it...someone to pass the buck to, someone to point the finger at. The Liberal government are in power, why haven't they done something about it?? Because it is so easy to hope that the state governments fail, and have someone, other than themselves to blame.exactly..at least rudd said he would like to try and fix things! Howard just wants to keep his little stock pile!!!!

[reAllytee]

I actually enjoyed Johnny during the debate.
I've always had my issewes with him and there was a lot he went into that I definitely do not agree with but I very much enjoyed how he handled it, he spent more time getting to the point then rudd did.

Rudd was the first to say, "and as johnny mentioned about my...". Rather then sticking to the original question.

My Mum was a member of her school debating team for five years and she kept pointing out the obvious methods between the two players and she was pretty disgusted in the worm.

I am 100% agreeable when John Howard mentioned that when you show weakness to
Al Qaeda they strike, unfortunately it's true.
I wish he would of explained his support of the war on terror further in depth.
He should have spoken about constitutionally recognizing aborigines.

I do raise a question to Rudd, considering he keeps preaching, 'I want Australia to be the most educated nation', (which I do support 100%), why was Rudd bagging out John Howard's colleagues and he mentioned something about their inadequate knowledge to help him run the country? What about Rudd's team? Ex union workers, at least half of whom have no university degree what so ever.

The reason I spent most of my time cringing during the debate was because I couldn't stand how much Rudd used his time speaking to ornament his promises.

To the labour supporters:

If Rudd is elected to be prime minister, do you sincerely believe he will fulfill his promises in raising the child care rebate to 50%?
Do you sincerely believe that all of these easily made promises are going to be achieved?
How will you react if not?

Obviously I am not in favor of labor but, if they are to be elected, I shall not play it a bad sport, I will do my best to look on the bright side and support Kevin Rudd.

I just hope, I really, really hope that with all these labor supporter's we have here on this site, a year from now, aren't starting whiny threads about broken promises and when or how can things be changed.

They say Johnny's done enough it's time roll on out, fair enough. I just hope Kevin Rudd truly lives up to these promises, he's conformed more then half of our nation onto his side and I don't want to see people let down, (although that is inevitable with either party because this is politics we're talking about).

Ash .... You said that brilliantly !

I was rather let down by the debate last nite in the way that Rudd didnt offer much. So yet again im wondering who to vote for !

I also didnt like the way Rudd so rudely commented at one point after Howard had finished speaking " Oh wow i can finally get a word in !! " sorry but that was plain rude & at least he was going into depth with his answers unlike himself !


MD :laughing:

[charlen49]

I also didnt like the way Rudd so rudely commented at one point after Howard had finished speaking " Oh wow i can finally get a word in !! " sorry but that was plain rude & at least he was going into depth with his answers unlike himself !


MD :laughing: and how many times did little johnny lose his cool and talk over the top of kevin.????.hmm i lost count..now thats rude..couldnt wait his turn!.even the judicator said he was hogging all the time!..and fairly the time had to be shared equally....at least kevin showed some'balls' and didnt back down which i think johnny was hoping as he seemed very unintersted in puting any real genuine fresh postive thought into his arguements..he was mr negative all the way!!

[Ashleigh<3]

Ash .... You said that brilliantly !

I was rather let down by the debate last nite in the way that Rudd didnt offer much. So yet again im wondering who to vote for !

I also didnt like the way Rudd so rudely commented at one point after Howard had finished speaking " Oh wow i can finally get a word in !! " sorry but that was plain rude & at least he was going into depth with his answers unlike himself !


MD :laughing:

Thank you Ally.

There were plentiful things Rudd said that I really didn't enjoy. I could enlighten the intrigued all day but alas, the ratio of liberal:labor supporters is very low and I get hacked into pretty heavily. Haven't been to the gym in a while I'm very weak!

[Ashleigh<3]

and how many times did little johnny lose his cool and talk over the top of kevin.????.hmm i lost count..now thats rude..couldnt wait his turn!.even the judicator said he was hogging all the time!..and fairly the time had to be shared equally....at least kevin showed some'balls' and didnt back down which i think johnny was hoping as he seemed very unintersted in puting any real genuine fresh postive thought into his arguements..he was mr negative all the way!!

Most of the questions were aimed at John Howard, they did not seem evenly spread at all.
That is partially the reason we heard more from Howard then Rudd.

While Rudd used his time to his advantage, Howard impressed the odd few, believe it or not.
The worm seemed like such an unnecessary influence, I guarantee plenty of naive supporters were sitting at home, all eyes on the worm, "Oooer look, the worm is in favor of Rudd, he get's my vote then!".

Was anyone else looking at the worm thinking, "Hmmm, rigged, what a shame!".
Or was that just me?

[Phyllis Stein]

I beg to differ on the point about Labor voters on this thread. There are a few 'dyed in the wool' Labor supporters, yes, as there are a few diehard Liberal supporters. I'm voting green, as are a number of the contributors on this thread. I dare say many of the Labor/ Rudd supporters here are either:

a) voting Howard out, rather than Rudd in.
b) dismayed at the lack of true choice between the parties, so opting for the party whose ideology is at least somewhat left of the coalition's hard right approach. The least-worst option.
c) truly think Rudd has a vision for Australia, within the inevitable constraints of our brand of democracy, economic rationalism and a globalised economy.

I just wanted to make the distinction between card-carrying Labor voters, and those who are willing to see the weaknesses of both parties, but think Labor is the lesser evil overall.

[forbetoel]

I also didnt like the way Rudd so rudely commented at one point after Howard had finished speaking " Oh wow i can finally get a word in !! " sorry but that was plain rude & at least he was going into depth with his answers unlike himself !


MD :laughing:

Ah it was true, even the papers are sayig that Howard got way more air time than Rudd. I think it shows how truly badly Howard did, when example like this are used....

[forbetoel]

Some might say I am one of those die-hard Labor supporters, but that is not really true. My support for the Labor party this election has been mainly based on wanting John Howard out, too many deal breakers and lies from him, so I am going to get behind Rudd to get rid of Howard. So far I like most of Labor's policies, except for the new childcare rebate, I think there are much better ways to spend this money. I don't agree with everything Labor does or says, I have my own mind.

[spoon]

Give people a break. Most people work as hard as they can for their families - why should only some people then get rewarded by a tax break? Do you know any small business owners? How many of them work a 9-5 day or can be a SAHM?

I know quote a few small business owners, my parents included. How dare anyone say that they don't deserve some tax breaks because they are the 'rich'. That's a very shortsighted view IMO.:no:

People earning over $180,000 per annum deserve to be entitled to the same tax cuts as the rest of the population? No. I do not think that is fair.

You ask me if i KNOW any small business owners? I am a small business owner. Working from homeand looking after 3 babies under 2.

My colleagues are small business owners, my father is a business owner as if my brother.

The thing about the rich getting richer, is that it is true that the poor get poorer.:thumbsdown:

"whats in it for me" is how libs got in and continued to get in.:thumbsdown:

[reAllytee]

Thank you Ally.

There were plentiful things Rudd said that I really didn't enjoy. I could enlighten the intrigued all day but alas, the ratio of liberal:labor supporters is very low and I get hacked into pretty heavily. Haven't been to the gym in a while I'm very weak!

Oh i know exactly what you mean the hilarious thing is while i support Liberal to a degree i would happily vote Labor if i could see a reason why. I just hate that you get bitten into time & time again in these threads if you dont say how much you love Labor.



Most of the questions were aimed at John Howard, they did not seem evenly spread at all.
That is partially the reason we heard more from Howard then Rudd.

While Rudd used his time to his advantage, Howard impressed the odd few, believe it or not.
The worm seemed like such an unnecessary influence, I guarantee plenty of naive supporters were sitting at home, all eyes on the worm, "Oooer look, the worm is in favor of Rudd, he get's my vote then!".

Was anyone else looking at the worm thinking, "Hmmm, rigged, what a shame!".
Or was that just me?

Beautifully said yet again ! You are pretty much saying everything that i thought at the time Ash ... You sure you arent in my head :detective:

[charlen49]

Most of the questions were aimed at John Howard, they did not seem evenly spread at all.
That is partially the reason we heard more from Howard then Rudd.

While Rudd used his time to his advantage, Howard impressed the odd few, believe it or not.
The worm seemed like such an unnecessary influence, I guarantee plenty of naive supporters were sitting at home, all eyes on the worm, "Oooer look, the worm is in favor of Rudd, he get's my vote then!".

Was anyone else looking at the worm thinking, "Hmmm, rigged, what a shame!".
Or was that just me?umcomercial channel 9 had the worm the rest didnt..i watched sky news which actually had the mediation through them..and the other networks fed into them!

[reAllytee]

People earning over $180,000 per annum deserve to be entitled to the same tax cuts as the rest of the population? No. I do not think that is fair.

You ask me if i KNOW any small business owners? I am a small business owner. Working from homeand looking after 3 babies under 2.

My colleagues are small business owners, my father is a business owner as if my brother.

The thing about the rich getting richer, is that it is true that the poor get poorer.:thumbsdown:

"whats in it for me" is how libs got in and continued to get in.:thumbsdown:

Sorry but then how do you think its fair that the average earnins of aussies which is $37/$38k p/a is going to be lumped into the same tax bracket as those earning $150k. Sorry but this astounds me that no-one has made this connection.

At least with the Libs they have now gone to 4 separate tax brackets rather than the 3 that Labour are offering.

[reAllytee]

umcomercial channel 9 had the worm the rest didnt..i watched sky news which actually had the mediation through them..and the other networks fed into them!


Channel 9 actually had the plugged pulled on them as it was found they were doing the worm so the ABC cut them out so they then went to the second feed off the ABC they had but then that too was cut so they actually had to buy it off Sky. Hilarious.

[charlen49]

Channel 9 actually had the plugged pulled on them as it was found they were doing the worm so the ABC cut them out so they then went to the second feed off the ABC they had but then that too was cut so they actually had to buy it off Sky. Hilarious.
who cares what the television stations were doing.. started and ended on sky as it was run by them..yes i voted on a petition for the worm..( i think i have a thing for him..hehehe) but i just wanted to watch the debate...and i enjoyed it...i guess being involved in dabates through schools..i love to see the banter and the twist and turns from both sides...:thumbsup:

[spoon]

Sorry but then how do you think its fair that the average earnins of aussies which is $37/$38k p/a is going to be lumped into the same tax bracket as those earning $150k. Sorry but this astounds me that no-one has made this connection.

At least with the Libs they have now gone to 4 separate tax brackets rather than the 3 that Labour are offering.

Allyoo, I have a vague memory of yourself and your very lovely husband debating here a while ago trying to convince everyone of your reasons as to why you supported the Liberals nuclear power plan. I think i remember you both swearing support for the libs all the way back then, and i also recall you and our lovely MD seeing eye to eye on political points of interest. So to my way of thinking, you are a Liberal voter through and through and always will be which is fine but it means that we are never going to agree. (Again I say this is fine)

But it is pointless to ask me for my reasons so that you can say that I am wrong etc etc.

[tickle]

This one is closed to be cleaned out.

Please keep posts on topic and nice. :)