View Full Version : Circumcision and Vax
I am purely curious, I can see how this post may stir emotions however that's not my aim.
I was thinking the other day about Circ and the arguments for and particularly against, and it made me wonder..
How many people are against both circumcision and vaccination, and how many are for one or the other?
If you catch my drift.
To me, it seems that a lot of the argument is - if it ain't broke, don't fix. Would this also apply to jabbing bubby with a needle to prevent future disease and discomfort. :)
That is all.
Curiously yours,
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 16:55
I am not against vax or circ:)
I DON'T vax my kids
I DON'T circ my kids
I DON'T care what other people do as long as they are making informed choices and actually HAVE a choice:)
I am always happy to share my views:)
Thanks Ffrenchie :D I respect your opinion :) :) :)
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 16:57
Ta:o...no worries:)
melfunction
23-02-2006, 17:00
I haven't circ'd K and got a conscientious objection form signed by the GP yesterday....No more needles for K..Thanks Frenchie :thumbsup:
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 17:01
You did? Cool, well done:D How did the doc take it?
Hi Nikki
I do vax my kids but I don't think I would routinely circ a son (if I had one).
To me the benefits of vaxxing outweigh the risks (JMO only - I also respect yours Katie ;) ), but the benefit of routine circ doesn't outweigh the risk. My position seems rational to me, I'm interested to see if you get a correlation from others.
melfunction
23-02-2006, 17:03
She was happy enough that we had researched and obviously thought a great deal about it. Still wasn't happy to sign it, but she did :yelclap:
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 17:04
Cooool:D:smiliedance:
Mummabear
23-02-2006, 17:05
Hey Nikki,
I would probably say that I'm 'pro choice' on circ. We didn't do it on DS and won't for any future boys, but it's purely for our own personal reasons. I have friends and family that have circ'd and I feel it's simply their choice. We chose not to purely because I couldn't put him through the pain - no other reason. I was actually all for it when considering other factors, but when I thought about hurting him I couldn't do it.
I know that needles and the after effects of vaccinations can hurt them too, but I feel differently about that :rolleyes: I am totally for vaccinations. I guess my view on it is that, although I feel bad when he gets his jabs, not just because of the needle but also because of the vaccinations themselves - I think how much worse I would feel if DS got whooping cough (which isn't that uncommon) or polio (my aunty had it as a child), or anything else that is covered in the vaccinations. I personally feel that the diseases that we vaccinate against are a real threat (not just a hypothetical), that's why they just changed the polio vaccination, because there is a strain of polio out there that is now immune to the oral vaccination. It's real and it's out there and if I can protect my DS from it I will. That's my thought process on it :)
So there you go - that's me. When all is said and done I'm all for supporting everyone's right to choose :thumbsup:
I think there are a lot of people who would choose not to circ but would still choose to vax.
Whereas those who choose not to vax, more than likely would also not circ iykwim. :rolleyes:
I think this is because on the whole, the medical opinion is that there is no need to circ a child so more and more people are not doing it, but the medical profession still clearly prefer us to vax our kids so most people do it.
If you researched and decided that the risks of vax outweigh the benefits (as some people do) and therefore decide not to vax, I don't think you'd be the type to perform unnecessary surgery. Did I just repeat myself? :ecomcity: :o
My very basic response is:
-circ "may" prevent future infection....painful, uncomfortable, but not generally life threatening, so we don't circ.
-immun. "may" prevent future diseases....of which can be life threatening. So we immun.
Neither decision is based on hurting or not hurting, its weighing up the possible outcomes of doing/not doing either and what is more important to DH and I. We can live with our son having a treatable infection....we couldn't live with ourselves if we didn't immunise and he was affected by a serious life-threatening disease we could have prevented IYKWIM.
Hope that makes sense, I'm in a bit of a hurry!
i chose to vax but not not circ .
oh more new smilies! (sorry) lol
:yelclap:
Mummabear
23-02-2006, 17:17
My very basic response is:
-circ "may" prevent future infection....painful, uncomfortable, but not generally life threatening, so we don't circ.
-immun. "may" prevent future diseases....of which can be life threatening. So we immun.
Neither decision is based on hurting or not hurting, its weighing up the possible outcomes of doing/not doing either and what is more important to DH and I. We can live with our son having a treatable infection....we couldn't live with ourselves if we didn't immunise and he was affected by a serious life-threatening disease we could have prevented IYKWIM.
Hope that makes sense, I'm in a bit of a hurry!
That was extremely well put Nic. :thumbsup:
Pippi Longstocking
23-02-2006, 17:27
I don't vax or circ. I had heaps more trouble making my decision to not vax than I did deciding to leave my boys intact though. My decision wasn't based on the pain of them getting needles, my reluctance was due to the poisonous substances contained in the needle. Poison that has no doubt saved lives. But still poison. That has also taken lives....Blurgh. I hated making the decision but now feel very sure that I have made the right one. I never even contemplated circumcision. If medically necessary, I wouldn't hesitate. But my boys are nearly 8 and nearly 4 and neither have had so much as mild irritation let alone infections etc.
Did any of that make sense at all? Don't mind me, I feel a bit vague and doughy today :o
That was extremely well put Nic. :thumbsup:
I agree :) thank you Nic :D
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 17:34
Blurgh. I hated making the decision but now feel very sure that I have made the right one
ME too!!! Argh:rolleyes: ...and that's just it, you have to make a decision that you will stick by and that suits your family. No one else can make that decision for you:)
There's not a hope in hell I would choose circumcision unless it was medically necessary, but when it comes to vaxing I'm really stuck.. mostly because I haven't read enough to make a decision I can feel comfortable with yet.
I feel very, very scared about the risks of vaxing... but also very nervous about what *might* happen if I don't. Rock and a hard place. :rolleyes:
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 17:44
C, it is such a hard decision to make as everything you read is very biased one way or the other:thumbsdown: I found that the more I read, the actual facts would emerge that were the same no matter which "side" you were reading. We made our decision purely on facts and tried not to be swayed by propoganda etc. I guess, in the end we made the decisoin we could live with. We would feel worse if our kids had problems with something we actually "added" to their bodies. Its also more the long term effects we are concerned about rather than the here and now:)
Off track but I just wanted to say that I understand how hard it is to choose! Go with your heart and your gut mixed with some facts and you can' go wrong! Mua!
the_queen
23-02-2006, 17:46
I wouldn't circ my child. Full stop.
Vax - well I am currently researching this issue to try to gain a better understanding of it. Vallerie has had all her vax's (except she hasn't had her 4 yo ones yet... ) but I hadn't looked into the issue at all then. I just did what I thought I was supposed to. At this point there's a couple of vax's that I've decided we'll definately refuse, and I'm still deciding about the rest.
No talk about circ from me here - done enough of that elsewhere
We vaxed our son and will do the next one. I've seen too many problems with kids who've had illnesses not to. I've worked a lot in hospitals and I guess a lot of it comes down to your experiences - working with sick people made me realise how awful the effects can be. My son has had seizures since he was 10months (none for the last 2months touch wood), and we were paranoid anytime he got sick that he'd have a seizure which would have devasting outcomes, however, we also watched him like a hawk anytime he had a vaccination. For us, the pros definitely outweigh cons - he's been hospitalised once with a serious illness, and his body obviously doesn't handle being sick well - imagine if it was something I could have prevented with a needle. I also don't want to worry about which other kids he's socialising with. I have a social boy who will 'talk' to any person who shows an interest in him. You can't tell by looking at other people whether they have something that can be passed on - to a child who doesn't have a fully established immune system.
Unfortunately along with the wonders of modern day science/medicine, we also have superbugs which have evolved. But you've got to be thankful these days that our children aren't dying the same as they were years ago. My mother does a lot of family tree tracing and a lot of my ancestors died before the age two of diseases which we either immunise against today or we have immunised against in the past, and haven't seen the light of day for years.
My very basic response is:
-circ "may" prevent future infection....painful, uncomfortable, but not generally life threatening, so we don't circ.
-immun. "may" prevent future diseases....of which can be life threatening. So we immun.
Neither decision is based on hurting or not hurting, its weighing up the possible outcomes of doing/not doing either and what is more important to DH and I. We can live with our son having a treatable infection....we couldn't live with ourselves if we didn't immunise and he was affected by a serious life-threatening disease we could have prevented IYKWIM.
Hope that makes sense, I'm in a bit of a hurry!
hey nic, whilst im a bit if a fence sitter on the vaccination issue, vaccination does indeed prevent diseases, it is more than a 'may' just prevent them, the question is, does the vaccinations themselves also pose a dangerous risk to our children? I guess this is something each parent has to weigh up and decide for themselves :)
jembelina
23-02-2006, 18:38
[QUOTE=Seekrit]
To me, it seems that a lot of the argument is - if it ain't broke, don't fix. Would this also apply to jabbing bubby with a needle to prevent future disease and discomfort. :)
QUOTE]
Put very basically, yes. I don't do either. I also, don't feel the need to explain to others why. People don't get asked why they do vaccinate. Anyway, I too am curious to see the results of this thread.:)
[quote=Seekrit]
To me, it seems that a lot of the argument is - if it ain't broke, don't fix. Would this also apply to jabbing bubby with a needle to prevent future disease and discomfort. :)
QUOTE]
Put very basically, yes. I don't do either. I also, don't feel the need to explain to others why. People don't get asked why they do vaccinate. Anyway, I too am curious to see the results of this thread.:)
Its funny, someone mentioned in another circ thread, about do we all think about, talk about this out in the real world, and the answer is probably no. I dont think any of us volunteer infomation on whether our sons are circumcised, or whether we vaccinate, and i wouldnt even know if most of my non cyber friends sons are circed or not!! nor do i care. I guess the good thing about forums on the net, is that it gives you a bit of a soapbox to get all your opinions etc off your chest, its having your voice heard iykwim? I dont think any genuine people here ever share their thoughts on any subject with the intent to upset or offend, unfortunately it happens though, but all in all, i believe it isnt really anyones business but your own, and i think most people would believe there is a difference between vaccination and circumcision.
I feel very, very scared about the risks of vaxing... but also very nervous about what *might* happen if I don't. Rock and a hard place. :rolleyes:
The risks are low, in the case of the polio virus, unless your going to take your childrens tonsils our directly before the vax injection they're near guaranteed to be safe if you believe in adaquate hygiene which I'm sure you do.
I'd hit the books if you're worried about the risks and your fears will abate as vaccination has been the second greatest impact on world health followed by clean water.
I'm pro-choice on both issues of circumcision & vaccination, I however have done both.
At the end of the day, it's the parents choice if they think the risks of not vaccinating their children are worth it.
I'd hit the books if you're worried about the risks and your fears will abate as vaccination has been the second greatest impact on world health followed by clean water.
off the topic for a sec, Baz, dont make assumptions, if you knew cec at all, you would know that no one hits the books more when it comes to parenting issues than her ;)
Put very basically, yes. I don't do either. I also, don't feel the need to explain to others why. People don't get asked why they do vaccinate. Anyway, I too am curious to see the results of this thread.:)
I've noticed this, it seems rather amusing, if you don't vaccinate you have to explain yourself to those who do vaccinate and if you do circumcision you have to explain yourself to those who don't circumcise.
My mother does a lot of family tree tracing and a lot of my ancestors died before the age two of diseases which we either immunise against today or we have immunised against in the past, and haven't seen the light of day for years.
Problem is nowadays there are a few governments in Africa making out that vaccinations are western diseases to kill them (or Christian diseases depending on the fanatical basis of the countries leadership), this has slowly spread to Indonesia where following that exact pattern there has been an unfortunate resurgance in the Polio virus, which even worse, may hit our shores through immigration.
I've noticed this, it seems rather amusing, if you don't vaccinate you have to explain yourself to those who do vaccinate and if you do circumcision you have to explain yourself to those who don't circumcise.
Barry, you keep forgetting, no one asked you anything, YOUR the one who keeps bringing it up ;)
off the topic for a sec, Baz, dont make assumptions, if you knew cec at all, you would know that no one hits the books more when it comes to parenting issues than her ;)
It's not an assumption, it's advice. If you told me you had a Ph.D in Virology and Infectious Disease but were unsure I'd offer the same advice - research always leads to answers and clarity, even if those answers and that clarity is just of what to research next.
Barry, you keep forgetting, no one asked you anything, YOUR the one who keeps bringing it up ;)
...I was talking to jembelina.
Furthermore, you yourself have even asked my why I chose to circumcise my child. "Baz, you havn't really answered the question of WHY??"
I didn't bring that up, it was your question.
So uhm... I don't get what the point of this comment was?
I agree. It's why I research. And vaccination is right up on my list. ;)
...I was talking to jembelina.
Furthermore, you yourself have even asked my why I chose to circumcise my child. "Baz, you havn't really answered the question of WHY??"
I didn't bring that up, it was your question.
So uhm... I don't get what the point of this comment was?
sorry baz, but its not a private chat room, everyone is welcome to make an opinion on a post. :)
my point was, you are the one who has decided to tell everyone that you had your son circumcised, you even started a thread asking others, why they do or dont circumcise, noone asked you to volunteer this information, and people are going to be curious though if you do. :)
hey nic, whilst im a bit if a fence sitter on the vaccination issue, vaccination does indeed prevent diseases, it is more than a 'may' just prevent them, the question is, does the vaccinations themselves also pose a dangerous risk to our children? I guess this is something each parent has to weigh up and decide for themselves :)
Hey Erin :) I just "may"-ed things cos I didn't want to say that they DID prevent diseases...i'm sure somewhere out there there is an exception, and I figured someone would bring me up on it! :)
I know that we should think about the risks of what is involved in the vaccinations, call me naive, but I have faith that the good ol scientists out there have done the best job they could in ensuring things were as good as they could be. And my wide circle of friends, family and acquaintances is proof positive enough for me that they are "safe". I'm fully vacced and I'm still alive and kicking. IYKWIM.
I think once we go down the road of being worried about what is in everything, we can end up a bit disturbed! Nothings really safe unless its completely natural, and even then, there are natural things that are dangerous also! Its a bit neverending. Anyway off on a tangent there...
lol nic, you are probably right, i am sure there are some that would have disagreed.;) and yup, i agree with all the other stuff you said as well :yelclap:
ok.. just to follow up to your conversation coops and Nic... actually vaccinations don't guarantee a child won't get the illness. They can still get it even if they are vaxed.
Not to mention that the only cases of some illness these days is traceable directly to the vax, ie the vax caused the illness. :eek:
I have already said I'm not an expert on this so no-one shoot me down.. but these are the things I hope to investigate further.
oh cosmic, you and my dh would get on like a house on fire :D
i agree, i too have heard such things (particulary from dh) but for now, for me personally, the risks of not doing it, outweigh the risks of doing it, iykwim? i did find though, that waiting till my kids were older before getting it done, eliminated any of the side effects that often accompany immunisation.
I just wanted to add too that my DH is NOT vacced and still alive and kicking. :D So it goes both ways.
But in saying that, he also picks up every bug known to man, and suffers far more than Andrew and I do with the same virus. :) Not that immunisation necessarily makes a difference, but if there was an injection to make him less susceptible, I'm sure he'd take it! His parents decided not to vac him, not out of any real research, but just cos they didn't feel like it really. :confused: I don't understand it.
Its hard to think about really. I'm grateful that my parents had me vaccinated, but I wonder how some adults feel when they are grown up and they dont' believe in vaccination for their children, but have been vaccinated themselves? You know?
I guess most of us just do what we think is best with what we know at the time.
(Hmm I think I stole that line off Dr Phil....sounds familiar...I think I have been brainwashed!! :eek:)
ok.. just to follow up to your conversation coops and Nic... actually vaccinations don't guarantee a child won't get the illness. They can still get it even if they are vaxed.
Not to mention that the only cases of some illness these days is traceable directly to the vax, ie the vax caused the illness. :eek:
I have already said I'm not an expert on this so no-one shoot me down.. but these are the things I hope to investigate further.
Hey C, thats why I said "may". Just to cover my butt. :)
I guess most of us just do what we think is best with what we know at the time.
Absolutely!
sorry baz, but its not a private chat room, everyone is welcome to make an opinion on a post. :)
my point was, you are the one who has decided to tell everyone that you had your son circumcised, you even started a thread asking others, why they do or dont circumcise, noone asked you to volunteer this information, and people are going to be curious though if you do. :)
So that would relate exactly how to my comment that "it seems rather amusing, if you don't vaccinate you have to explain yourself to those who do vaccinate and if you do circumcision you have to explain yourself to those who don't circumcise."
You're not making a point let alone appearing to have an opinion other than trying to start some sort of argument?
In case I wasn't clear I'll elaborate, in general terms, if a person says their son is not circumcised or is vaccinated it goes unnoticed and under the rader, if a person says their son is circumcised or is not vaccinated then they are questioned.
You've brought up my thread, which is good, because even it evidences that those who did not circumcised were not questioned yet those who did were almost abused for doing so.
If you want to discuss further feel free to PM me as this isn't really the direction of this thread.
hrm, thread's gone down hill.
Erin, I notice your dislike for this thread/topics at hand, without trying to stir.. just what's a nice way of saying that maybe you shouldn't click the link?
I didn't make this post as a stir, I honestly am curious as to how people feel. I lamented posting this for a few days because I was wondering if people would see it as a stir.
Ok, looks like Erin isn't around at the moment to discuss this further.
It would be lovely to get back onto the topic at hand now, otherwise this thread will also be closed.:)
thank you Miss Lady Ma'am :)
Im back, and I apologise if my intentions werent clear, I was simply trying to clear up some questions that I had. Thankyou.
Rainbowbrite
23-02-2006, 20:14
I get MJ vaccinated, as I feel that if she got something that a vax was there to protect her from i'd never forgive myself. Though for future reference, if anyone can PM me some anti-vax info i'd be greatful :yelclap:
On the circ topic, i used to be all for it due to peer pressure i guess, (that & DH). BUT now if I ever (not likely) have another bub, I will not circ. DH is very adamant that he wants it done, but he's in for a rude shock ;)
RB
CandyJane
23-02-2006, 20:22
I'm anti-circumcision and I don't vaccinate :)
Hey Seekrit, I'm pro both :thumbsup:
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 21:11
ok.. just to follow up to your conversation coops and Nic... actually vaccinations don't guarantee a child won't get the illness. They can still get it even if they are vaxed.
...and, actually, for awhile, the only cause of polio was the polio vaccine.
I vaccinated my children, and will continue to do so. I may not be able to 100% guarantee that my child won't contract one of the diseases they have been vaccinated against, but I certainly know I have done all I can as a parent to prevent it.
I will not circumcise my children either, boys or girls. I don't think it should be labelled a 'choice' as it has never been something I have even considered.
Vax's, no way!
Circ, no way! :D
To me, it seems that a lot of the argument is - if it ain't broke, don't fix. Would this also apply to jabbing bubby with a needle to prevent future disease and discomfort
Yeah it applies. Our immune systems arent broken or defective.
Definitely no circ/vax here. I think it is wrong on so many levels.
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 22:49
Our immune systems arent broken or defective.
That is a very very good point:)
reAllytee
23-02-2006, 23:08
That is a very very good point:)
Well can you say that to my mum who got polio then ?
I think she would be rather horrified. :(
Seekrit - Great thread btw LOL very game :p
Well as you all probably know by now we had vaxxed & circ'd our boy & are pro-choice on this matter while we wont harass those who have it done nor would we harass those who dont. Admittedly i do get a little heated when it comes to vax due to my mum but at the end of the day i accept that most people who choose not to vax look into this thoroughly & its their choice as parents trying to do the right thing.
Oh & btw yes the vaccine was causing the probs for awhile there but that was due to using the live virus which we are no longer using but because those who werent vaxxed were catching it.
reAllytee
23-02-2006, 23:15
Sorry my quote was meant to be for Aurora stupid me :o
I would also like to point out that yes its often the vaccines dont stop all likelihood of a child getting the disease but reduces the severity so that the child doesnt get say a full dose of say measles which can cause brain damage or the likes but will only get the rash & will be miserable for a few days or the likes then be back to normal.
Did that make sense ? I dunno heh hopefully.
But as i said if you look into either of these & make a decision based on what you have found etc then thats all that matters :D
oooh ... definately pro vac... couldn't handle it if DS got sick with something that I could have prevented... a friends child is deaf as he was not immunised and got sick with menengitis (sp?) - too scary if you ask me (JMO though!- dont want a fight!)
..... anti circ (but that is only after researching the matter for DS... have no personal issue with others who make a different choice - my nephews are ) ... would love for it to be fazed out though :)
xxx
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 23:16
...not gettnig involved in another vax debate:)
reAllytee
23-02-2006, 23:22
...not gettnig involved in another vax debate:)
Thats not what i meant :( :confused:
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 23:27
LOL no I only just saw your second post. 'Tis ok, was more talking to myself "must not enter into anymore vaccination threads:shame: ....must not.....":p
:kiss: 'Tis all good:smiliedance:
:shame: oooh ffrenchie I never thought that you and I wouldn't see eye to eye on a topic!!!! :eek: soo ... just to get off topic... are you and Jessie on the SAME side of the (non existent.. not happening) arguement?? or is she pro?? (not argueing) :)
-- do daycares etc admit kids that haven't been vaxed?? just out of curiosity??
xxx
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 23:36
oooh ffrenchie I never thought that you and I wouldn't see eye to eye on a topic!!!!
LOL, me either:eek:
hahah the me and Jessie thing was all a misunderstanding....we wuv each other now...
Yup, daycares can't refuse you due to your vax status. It helps to have a concientious objection form though:) I wasn;t even asked about it at school and at pre-school they just said "Are his vaccinations up to date?" and we said "no" and they said "Ok then:)"
reAllytee
23-02-2006, 23:37
Isnt the motto "live & let live" a good one :D
Yup, daycares can't refuse you due to your vax status. It helps to have a concientious objection form though I wasn;t even asked about it at school and at pre-school they just said "Are his vaccinations up to date?" and we said "no" and they said "Ok then:)"
oooh you learn something new everyday :D thanks ffrenchie... even if if dont agree with you :p
bed ... NOW... (must... turn... off.. bubhub... must... turn .. off.. bubhub :D)
xxxx
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 23:39
:kiss: ............:kiss: :kiss: :kiss:
Yeah it applies. Our immune systems arent broken or defective.
Just a quick response to this one...our immune systems aren't broken or defective, infact getting sick (colds and flus etc) strengthens them. It's the only way we get antibodies naturally. Don't know if everybody knows, but whenever you get a cold or 'flu' it's never the same one you've had before - it has to be a different strain as your body has made the antibodies. That's the reason I don't vax against the flu every year - you're taking a gamble that the flu you get is the one that the vax is for that year. I figure if my body can handle it, I'm better to just go about my business and get it if I'm going to, and let my body build it's immune system.
However, with regards to the diseases on the immunisation schedule for bubs, these are diseases that our immune systems can't handle. In years gone past, young people died, or were disabled, or became sterile from the diseases. With the new diseases on the schedule (eg. Hep B etc) these are diseases from the 21st century, which while this may be a controversial thought - our bodies were not designed to handle all of this century.
Veve - as for the day care issue. We had an error from the FAO which sent a letter to our daycare centre saying we were no longer entitled to any child care rebate due to my son not being immunised. I took my immunisation schedule and the letter to our day care and they said it didn't matter - there was no way that he could be discriminated for not being immunised anyway, so weren't going to change his status.
Mental note - must make shorter posts, or type faster...too many posts from when I started typing to when I posted.:ecomcity:
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 23:51
which while this may be a controversial thought - our bodies were not designed to handle all of this century.
LOL that is a controversial thought....how could we possibly know that?
Ana Gram
24-02-2006, 00:05
I don't think it is controvertsial if you take into consideration how long the homo sapian sapian design has been around without much change at all and what we have done to everything else in that time
Thanks Chellegoth - that's sort of what I was meaning.
God created us as we are, but we have meddled in a lot. Look at surgeries, interventions, I'm sure God didn't see IVF possibilties in the beginning (but then again I don't have a direct line to him at the moment to ask). We've meddled in the ozone, use of non reusable fossil fuels, and on and on the list goes.:ecomcity:
1.
complications of circumcision are argued to be 2-10% by Williams and Kapila, in the British Journal of surgery. oct 1993 volume 80.
I dont know the complication rate of vaccinations, but i would guess that it is much lower.
2.
all circumcisions, (even those which are considered complication free) "result[s] in the loss of the majority of fine-touch neuroreceptors found in the penis, leaving only the exposed nerve glans, which is innervated with free nerve endings that can only sense deep pressure and pain." (Robert S. Van Howe, MD)
"The prepuce provides a large and important platform for several nerves and nerve endings. The innervation of the outer skin of the prepuce is impressive; its sensitivity to light touch and pain are similar to that of the skin of the penis as a whole. The glans, by contrast, is insensitive to light touch, heat, cold and, as far as the authors are aware, to pin-prick. Le Gros Clark noted that the glans penis is one of the few areas on the body that enjoys nothing beyond primitive sensory modalities"
(Taylor JR, Lockwood AP, Taylor AJ. The prepuce: specialized mucosa of the penis and its loss to circumcision. British Journal of Urology 1996; 77: 2915)
73% reported that circumcised men tend to thrust harder and deeper, using elongated strokes, while unaltered men by comparison tended to thrust more gently, to have shorter thrusts, and tended to be in contact with the mons pubis and clitoris more, according to 71% of the respondents....
Clearly, the anatomically complete penis offers a more rewarding experience for the female partner during coitus.
(The effect of male circumcision on the sexual enjoyment of the female partner
BJU INTERNATIONAL, Volume 83, Supplement 1, Pages 79-84,
January 1, 1999.)
vaccination does not remove anything.
3. vaccinations work. No sane people reccomend circumcision to prevent anything.
I'm not saying everyone should vaccinate. I'm just saying that, from the knowledge that we have today, about vaccinations, it is not unreasonable to accept that the benefits far outweigh the negatives.
the same cannot be said for circumcision.
Wow Andrew
You must be a bit of a night owl - it must be nearly 3.30am where you are!!
Since my birthday, I have turned nocturnal.
Rahmi'sMum
24-02-2006, 06:12
Those against vaccinations, you'd be singing a different tune if your toddler stepped on a needle and got infected with hepatitus. There is NO CURE. Only prevention. I think if you knew someone who had liver disease as a result - you wouldn't risk your child's safety. Also, trying to find a partner when infected wouldn't be real fun for them either.
I think not immunising is irresponsible when you know what terrible diseases/infections/viruses are out there and what could happen to your little darling if they were unlucky enough to contract any of them.
JMHO.
Oh - and I won't even get into how anti-circumcision I am, the word just gets me riled up. Don't think any reasons barr medical are good enough (and by medical I don't mean preventative). It should be banned.
My friend's little boy had a reaction to his shots when he was a couple of months old and went into shock and stopped breathing. They didn't notice until they were down the street in the shops and might not have noticed at all.
My other friend's child has autism, and despite all the supposed studies that have proven vax is not linked to autism, they firmly believe their little girl was normal before her shots.
Polio was virtually eradicated due to higher sanitation etc before we started vaccinating against it.
I don't know enough about this yet to know if it is reason not to vax... just saying these are some of the things that concern me about vaxing. :)
Oh gawd, another decision to make when I have my baby.
I THINK at this point my opinion would be, "Can I vax against SOME things but not have one of EVERYTHING?"
Is that possible?
It just seems like as soon as they're born they want to start jabbing them with stuff, starting with that Vitamin K thing.
Makes me want to live in a bubble, just bubby and me.
Ana Gram
24-02-2006, 08:56
This is another issue I support the parents right to choose what they think is best for their child and family.
I personally vaccinate. One of my main reasons for it is close friends of the family have a son who is almost 30 (my age) who got meningitis as a toddler and is now autistic.
I get sick of medical studies and statistics that people pull out to support their arguement (I find the bias behind these studies and stats very hard to swallow, but that is another story). At the end of the day, to me its just a bunch of words and numbers on paper written by a bunch of people in a lab in white coats who I very much doubt have had much hands on experience which the people subjects they are studying.
I may read the articles etc, providing I know who has funded the study but I prefer to go off first hand experience of people in my life who tend to go into a bit more detail about the consequences of choices.
Yes Shed
You could choose to have some vax and not others, just do your research, and ask lots of questions.
It comes down to the fact that you have to make a decision that you can believe in and no-one else can make it for you. Some of us believe one way, some of us the other. I have no problem with what ever choice people make, as long as they get informed.
Cheers
It just seems like as soon as they're born they want to start jabbing them with stuff, starting with that Vitamin K thing.
So true, Shed. And I know some of it is necessary but I really think some just isn't. Some people don't do Vitamin K. I personally would opt to administer it orally rather than by injection.
And Chelle, I hear what you are saying but apart from anecdote, all we have is the studies to guide us. Makes it very hard sometimes but I think you're right - if we look to who is funding them that's a good start. I have to agree that personal opinion is a big influencer for most people. People who've seen someone with an infected foreskin seem to be far more likely to circumcise (based on what I've read here) and I freely admit that my friends' experiences of vaccination scared the crap out of me!
My other friend's child has autism, and despite all the supposed studies that have proven vax is not linked to autism, they firmly believe their little girl was normal before her shots.
If we're talking classical autism it generally becomes apparrent as the child becomes older as they are expected to be communicating more, but don't and can't. The majority have brain damage which recent research suggest is due to problems or a disruption during early fetal brain development.
Whilst I'm not saying their beliefs are wrong, chances are, they had no way to tell the child was autistic until after the vaccinations when the child was meant to be communicating more.
On a side note, autistic children are often very intelligent as a side effect of this brain damage (or the disruption(s) during early fetal brain development) - It's a common misconception that most autistic children are lacking intelligence when infact they merely lack the ability to communicate their thoughs in a manner generally regarded as 'normal' so if they're able to work with their child and overcome the communication barrier they may infact think they've been blessed with potentially the next nobel prize winner.
Polio was virtually eradicated due to higher sanitation etc before we started vaccinating against it.
I don't know enough about this yet to know if it is reason not to vax... just saying these are some of the things that concern me about vaxing. :)
Polio is still a wild virus in 2006 and has never been fully eradicated due to personal hygiene or massive world vaccination programs or alien intervention, it's currently spreading in Indonesia, Africa (Angola,Goa,etc), India and other places, of most concern to parents in Australia should be the recent jump from Africa to Indonesia - this strain is not from a vaccine either.
Also of note is the fact that Australia (with the rest of the world) is phasing out the Sabin-1 oral polio vaccine (which was a weakened live form invented in 1954) in favour of the injected vaccine which is dead and non-communicable. So for those who lacked the hygiene to keep themselves safe from their childrens Sabin-1 vaccine, they can now rest easy at night. (eg. certain parents in Hiati & the Domenican Republic).
I THINK at this point my opinion would be, "Can I vax against SOME things but not have one of EVERYTHING?"
Is that possible?
Yes, it's possible.
We've vaccinated our Hep B, Polio, [DTPa - diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis (whooping cough) - this is one injection], Haemophilus influenzae type b (the virus causes meningitis, epiglottitis, and pneumonia).
Shortly we'll be vaccinating him for his 12 month shots of Meningococcal C & [Measles, Mumps, and Rubella - this is one injection too].
If you're against vaccination I'd lean towards seriously considering getting atleast the DTPa injection as estimates suggest nearly a million babies are saved each year due to having the tetanus injection.
But again, it's your choice, I hope the above was helpful.
the_queen
24-02-2006, 09:36
If you're against vaccination I'd lean towards seriously considering getting atleast the DTPa injection as estimates suggest nearly a million babies are saved each year due to having the tetanus injection.
This is a genuine question: I don't understand what you mean by saying babies are saved due to having the tetanus injection? I would like to be educated on this topic, so please don't think I'm starting an argument, I just want to know more about it. If my child steps on a rusty nail, of course I'd take him directly to the doc/hospital, where they would administer a tetanus jab then and there, right? So why give it to little babies who are at really low risk of getting a wound of any kind, let alone a dirty wound?
Please correct me if I'm wrong because I want to be fully informed about this issue before I make the final decision. :)
Ana Gram
24-02-2006, 09:51
alien intervention
Polio is caused by aliens now? I think we should run with that and create a webpage with this government/alien conspiracy, wait I think I hear the X Files music....
Polio is caused by aliens now? I think we should run with that and create a webpage with this government/alien conspiracy, wait I think I hear the X Files music....
It's burned into my memory as I spilt my drink at the time I read it, can't remember where it was from but a group of families in midwestern-somewhere were deadly convinced it was the aliens.
This is a genuine question: I don't understand what you mean by saying babies are saved due to having the tetanus injection? I would like to be educated on this topic, so please don't think I'm starting an argument, I just want to know more about it. If my child steps on a rusty nail, of course I'd take him directly to the doc/hospital, where they would administer a tetanus jab then and there, right? So why give it to little babies who are at really low risk of getting a wound of any kind, let alone a dirty wound?
Please correct me if I'm wrong because I want to be fully informed about this issue before I make the final decision. :)
No worries, I'm quite happy to give some more infomation, I understand it's an important decision that needs to be made with adaquate knowledge at hand.
Stepping on a rusty nail, getting jabbed in the hand by a needle at the beach and you rush to the hospital no worries alls (usually and hopefully) good. But there's varying degrees where people think 'oh no big deal' like a little scratch from a cat, or that door hinge that's always been a bit rough on the back shed etc.
Rest assured 950,000 of those possible prevented deaths are in some God foresaken country but I personally feel even if you're against vaccination for whatever reason it's still worth seriously considering that one set of shots.
(As a side note studies are all over the shop but it's generally regarded that 1 kid per school year will get whooping cough, a vaccination of which is part of DTPa)
In terms of what you'll be exposing your child too (I don't know if your familiar or not so feel free to ignore it if you are) the DTPa injection schedule that I'm aware of is 2 months, 4 months, 6 months, 4 years, 15-19 years. The first four are crucial the fifth isn't such a big deal as you get the booster shot, like you said, when you step on a rusty nail.
In terms of the dangers of the DTPa vaccine, there is no longer the risk of what was called "prolonged crying" that the old DTPw vaccine had. There are however side effects like any medical procedure, the side effects for DTPa occur in 1 in 10,000 children the most common of which are fever, fainting and swelling of injection area (local reaction), belows a little list, but it's by no means comphrensive or guaranteed correct, my memories not what it used to be;
- A local reaction: eg: swelling, redness at the point of injection, goes away after a few days.
- Fever: the most common of the side effects, and obviously would cause your child to be irritabile, but ultimately goes away.
- Hypotonic-hyporesponsive episodes – these are extremely rare occurring one to 24 hours after an immunisation, in which "the baby goes pale, floppy and unresponsive". (Is it just me or is floppy the worst ever descriptive word for a babies condition?!) They are more common with the old DTPw than with the new DTPa. All the little bubbas recover too.
- Fainting: you know the bubba gets the jab and goes way-side. Shared among all injections/vaccinations/blood tests.
According to some people, getting your child vaccinated may also cause vCJD (mad cow disease), so if your babies born with udders, be careful. ;)
If you're unsure though your best bet is to bug you GP to give you an indepth dicussion of what the risks of getting the injection are, the dangers of not having it, and the benefits of having it - you may feel that the dangers of not having it aren't that big a problem for you and your child and the benefits aren't worth it when considering the risks.
It's every parents choice really, if you choose not too, then like crossing a street, you could get hit by a car, but chances are you're not going to be if you pay attention and are vigilant.
the_queen
24-02-2006, 12:07
Thanks Baz.
I guess for me the issue is, is it really necessary to be vaccinated against tetanus? As a prophylactic measure, I mean. I understand Pertussis vax is still extremely necessary, there's been enough outbreaks of whooping cough here in Adelaide in the last 5 years to convince me of that. And I'm not against vax's because of the short-term reaction/side effects such as fever, swelling, etc. I just don't want to vax my baby against something unnecessarily. I'm going to have to find an open-minded GP to discuss this with. I think I can get bubs vax'd against diptheria and pertussis separately...?
I've decided not to vax against Hep B because I can't see any reason to do so. My baby won't be engaging in unsafe sex, unsafe injecting practices, or unsafe tattooing/piercing. Someone mentioned earlier about stepping on a discarded needle - I personally don't see the risk in this. My kid wears shoes outside (yes, all the time - even in our back yard) not only to protect against needles but also broken glass, prickles, bee's, etc etc. I might be seen as overprotective, but when we go to the playground I don't let her play until I've done a scout around to check for any dangers. And not every IV drug user is infected with a disease, anyway. Plus, if the needle has been there for longer than 24 hours, it's highly unlikely that any virus will have survived enough to infect someone else. I know there's a risk - but my point is that it's not a big enough risk to justify vaccination IMO. If there was a vax available for HIV, I honestly don't think I'd have it done on myself or my children. Whereas, if we lived in Africa, then I probably would have it done. It's all about risk assessment.
Your last statement is a pearler Baz. That's the analogy I use when explaining my opinion to people. Every day I put my daughter and myself in a car and drive around, with probably quite a big chance that some idiot will plough into us, or maybe a branch will crash through the windscreen from a tree above (this actually happened to me yesterday - missed us by that much!!) There's a risk in everything we do.
Ana Gram
24-02-2006, 12:17
It's burned into my memory as I spilt my drink at the time I read it, can't remember where it was from but a group of families in midwestern-somewhere were deadly convinced it was the aliens.
That has got to be somewhere in America!
Ana Gram
24-02-2006, 12:21
unsafe tattooing/piercing.
Yes one of my favourite topics I bring up at every chance I get.
What do you consider unsafe piercing practices?
I guess for me the issue is, is it really necessary to be vaccinated against tetanus?
I just don't want to vax my baby against something unnecessarily. I'm going to have to find an open-minded GP to discuss this with. I think I can get bubs vax'd against diptheria and pertussis separately...?
Not sure to be honest, I know there was, but these days? not sure. From my point of view I'd just go the 3-in-1 combo vax but I can see where you're coming from so I'd say hunt down a decent GP and have a good chat.
If there was a vax available for HIV, I honestly don't think I'd have it done on myself or my children. Whereas, if we lived in Africa, then I probably would have it done. It's all about risk assessment.
As if not, everyone wants to have wild unprotected sex with unknown partners and swap needles like it's 1989!
Your last statement is a pearler Baz. (...) There's a risk in everything we do.
Yes indeedy, and a lot of people make the mistake of thinking it's not the parents choice as to what they choose to do when they consider the risks to their situation.
mellybean
24-02-2006, 12:28
Hi all, I am a no circ no vax mum. The no circ decision was always easy to make, the no vac decsion was made after doing lots of reasearch etc. My DS is 7 and wasn't jabbed......until recently. After getting an infected fingernail that swelled half his finger up, the doctor reccommended a tetanus shot. He also led me to believe DS could be vaccinated for tetanus alone ( which to my GREAT distrubunce was reputed by the nurse upon giving DS his final booster that tetanus only comes in the DPT form
Grrr!!:mad: ) I was relutant to have it done but tetanus is something that there is a risk for and thought the circumstances did warrant the jab. I guess we have to tackle these situations as they arise. I must also say I am quite surprised at the amount of no vax families there are out there! I am a bit of a black sheep around here when it comes to these things, and it's nice to know you're not alone!:)
Yes one of my favourite topics I bring up at every chance I get.
What do you consider unsafe piercing practices?
Tattooing:
I consider unsafe practices to be:
No ultrasonic cleaner for tattoo gun & shaft.
No autoclave for tattoo gun, shaft & just-made needles.
Re-use of tattoo needles.
No sterile gloves or sterile washed handes.
Just my opinion ;)
reAllytee
24-02-2006, 13:03
Gees are you telling me the guy who did my tatt who spat on the needle & used a match to heat it up was unsanitory ? :devil6:
Sorry had to be smart :o :p
Ana Gram
24-02-2006, 13:33
Gees are you telling me the guy who did my tatt who spat on the needle & used a match to heat it up was unsanitory ? :devil6:
Sorry had to be smart :o :p
Actually that would be better than using the gun!!
reAllytee
24-02-2006, 13:40
Actually that would be better than using the gun!!
Heheheh i had a biker dude do mine & im ok well i think :p
Maybe thats my problem ? :eek:
But my next one will be done with our friend who we know & trust way more better than a guy at a parlour.
Dont even get me started on some of the girls who do ear piercing at chemists or jewellery stores :eek:
caitsmum
25-02-2006, 19:47
I have three girls so circumcision has never been an issue for us but saying that we would not have done it.
Vaxination is such a different matter for us. These diseases are real and have caused mobity and mortality. I vaxinate and always will.
The new vax that has been developed for the cervical cancer - my girls will all have it if it becomes available. No way in the world would I ever, ever risk them getting such a horrible cancer if it could be prevented. I will educate them against safe sex but I can never be 100% sure that it will be what they practice and I can never be 100% sure that their partners are faithful and practice safe sex.
All have you that have girls and are agianst vax would you really risk them getting a cancer that can be so devestating?
All have you that have girls and are agianst vax would you really risk them getting a cancer that can be so devestating?
Ok, I'm not against vax, my DS is fully immunised.
But in my opinion, many people who choose not to vax have made that decision on research that they have done and have weighed up that the vax itself it not worth the risk. I'm pretty sure they've thought long and hard about it and have made their decision on what's best for them.
I'm sure that the same would go for the cervical cancer vaccine.
Sorry shouldn't really be speaking for other people but that is how I see it.:o
melfunction
25-02-2006, 20:08
The new vax that has been developed for the cervical cancer - my girls will all have it if it becomes available. No way in the world would I ever, ever risk them getting such a horrible cancer if it could be prevented. I will educate them against safe sex but I can never be 100% sure that it will be what they practice and I can never be 100% sure that their partners are faithful and practice safe sex.
All have you that have girls and are agianst vax would you really risk them getting a cancer that can be so devestating?
EVERY cancer is devastating....and there is NO sure fire way to prevent yourself or you kids from getting it. Cancer does not discriminate.
A vaccine is a great start and if I have a daughter, she will be getting it.
Correct me if im wrong, but isnt it actually a vaccine against the papilloma virus, or whatever it called? This is what is commonly known to cause cervical cancer, but i dont know if its the only way woman can end up getting it, does anyone else know? Anyway, if this vaccine becomes available, at this point in time im saying, yes, my daughter will be getting it. :)
SassyMummy
26-02-2006, 00:16
I get my daughter vaccinated...but if she were a boy, I would NOT get her circumsized.
Sure, both vaccination and circ' are "fixing something that isn't there"...but I do believe that catching a deadly virus and having an unclean penis are in two completely different leagues. The fact that we bathe everyday (or at least, we SHOULD bathe everyday...lol), makes me wonder how the whole "circ is cleaner" arguement makes sense in anyone's mind. I do believe that little boys are capable of CLEANING themselves...and until then, their parents can do that for them. It's not rocket science. I do, however, think that hepatitis is dangerous, and I'd much rather prevent against that than risk my daughter getting it.
I also think that "inflicting pain" should not really be an issue when choosing to get your child immunised. It doesn't hurt that much...it's a tiny prick that lasts for a second. My daughter got her 6-months needles most recently, and made a mere yelp for the 2nd needle. That's it. She didn't even cry.
Cutting off foreskin, however, is painful (at least I imagine). The "recovery" would not be too great either...
What is the recovery from an injection? A couple of minutes while baby settles down..and that's only if they actually cry. (And I will acknowledge that some do have side-effects...but most commonly, these can be cured with a dose of panadol).
They're not even in the same league...IMO.
KatherineIV
26-02-2006, 03:23
I had this conversation a couple of weeks ago at the mother group I attend once a week. There were alot of different opinions.
To be honest Circ was not something we had even thought about until we got DS home with all the paperwork and the question was in the information we were given. I guess because DP isn't circ'd we just chose not to. Also the fact that NO doctors will perform the procedure in the city I live in and we'd have to travel 2 hours if we wanted to. We have the position of "if he needs it done for medical reasons we will but if there is no definite advantage (and DP has NEVER had any problems without being Circ'd) why follow that path!!
I find it interesting that in my mothers group the woman who said (and most of them only have girls) "if I had a son DH wants them to be circ'd"... we discussed it further and alot of the men that had made that statement were circ'd themselves. Where as the men who were not done seemed to be a bit more laid back on the issue ... (THAT WAS JUST MY OBSERVATION..AND SOMETHING WE ALL DISCUSSED ALSO)
In regards to vax... We did get DS done.. (and he is our first) we did alot of research and asked ALOT of questions but decided it was what we as parents wanted to do..
I really do believe it is a decision for the parents to make... I don't think there is a right or wrong answer... and I don't think anybody has the right to look down upon people who choose something that may not be the choice they would agree with!!
:ecomcity: Eeek Sorry for babbling.. it is 1.30am... and the brain has stopped working!!
Just for more information...
I do, however, think that hepatitis is dangerous, and I'd much rather prevent against that than risk my daughter getting it.
The general Hep vaccine is for B, there are other vaccines out there but not all forms of Hepatitis have vaccines, so spending the money to vaccinate against all possible forms of Hep still leaves the child vunerable against those which vaccinations aren't yet widely available.
I also think that "inflicting pain" should not really be an issue when choosing to get your child immunised. It doesn't hurt that much...it's a tiny prick that lasts for a second. My daughter got her 6-months needles most recently, and made a mere yelp for the 2nd needle. That's it. She didn't even cry.
Cutting off foreskin, however, is painful (at least I imagine). The "recovery" would not be too great either...
With a penile block the child doesn't feel the pain from the circumcision, and using the PlastiBell, the foreskin isn't even cut off, only one incision is made.
What is the recovery from an injection? A couple of minutes while baby settles down..and that's only if they actually cry. (And I will acknowledge that some do have side-effects...but most commonly, these can be cured with a dose of panadol).
As can the recovery from circumcision.
They're not even in the same league...IMO.
So yeah, in terms of pain they are. And it's arguable the side effects from vaccination can be more devestating which is why I find it amusing vaccination is generally accepted while circumcision is not even considered a parents choice to make.
Correct me if im wrong, but isnt it actually a vaccine against the papilloma virus, or whatever it called? This is what is commonly known to cause cervical cancer, but i dont know if its the only way woman can end up getting it, does anyone else know? Anyway, if this vaccine becomes available, at this point in time im saying, yes, my daughter will be getting it. :)
The vaccine is against two of the most common strains of the Human Papilloma Virus aka HPV which is one of many sexually transmitted diseases, the problem is, there are many more than two strains of HPV out there, and having the vaccination won't stop your child from getting cervical cancer either, it'll only stop your child from getting cervical cancer from two of the most common strains of HPV.
So essentially, if your child chooses her sexual partners with regard and chooses not to participate in copious one night stands with unknown partners this vaccine will make minimal impact on the chances of preventing cervical cancer. This is the reason why there is such large debate in the US on the topic at the moment, as some advocates believe it will encourage young people to engage in undesirable sexual activity, or prevent awareness of cervical cancer as there will be an uninformed mass who believe having this vaccine means they'll never get cervical cancer.
SassyMummy
27-02-2006, 00:09
Thanks for breaking down my opinion Barry. :thumbsdown:
I thought this was a "what is your opinion" type thing...not a "break down another's opinion with various facts you can find" type thing.
I appreciate that you do not have the same opinion as I do, but, with that being said, I do not appreciate you singling my points out to attack with bits of info you either "know" or "think you know" or "researched" or whatever.
We all know that you are circumsized, so I understand that you might feel "attacked" by all the negative comments made about circumcision. The thing is, nobody singled you out.
You're allowed to express your opinions, and I expect that you will. However, when posting, I did not expect that you would break down my post and make it appear invalid.
Not Cool.
reAllytee
27-02-2006, 01:25
I dont think he was trying to make it seem invalid SassyMummy just showing you another side (?) & possibly explaining things in a different way sometimes this is how we learn new things or the likes so he would have to "single" out points from your post.
I appreciate that you do not have the same opinion as I do, but, with that being said, I do not appreciate you singling my points out to attack with bits of info you either "know" or "think you know" or "researched" or whatever.
You're allowed to express your opinions, and I expect that you will. However, when posting, I did not expect that you would break down my post and make it appear invalid.
Not Cool.
I thought you may wish to know the established facts for both the Hep vaccine and the latter as there is a fair margin of people who aren't aware that the run of the mill Hep vaccine is only for Hep B not all forms and that lack of awareness can lead to a lot of problems later on.
As for the circumcision facts, I thought you may wish to know so you could have informed discussion on the matter.
I'm sorry you felt attacked.
Rhys'Mum
27-02-2006, 08:57
My very basic response is:
-circ "may" prevent future infection....painful, uncomfortable, but not generally life threatening, so we don't circ.
-immun. "may" prevent future diseases....of which can be life threatening. So we immun.
Neither decision is based on hurting or not hurting, its weighing up the possible outcomes of doing/not doing either and what is more important to DH and I. We can live with our son having a treatable infection....we couldn't live with ourselves if we didn't immunise and he was affected by a serious life-threatening disease we could have prevented IYKWIM.
Hope that makes sense, I'm in a bit of a hurry!
This pretty much sums up my position too. I've also seen effect on some of those that have survived polio and for me its not just threat to life, but impact on living.
ThomasMum
27-02-2006, 09:05
Without going into a debate which I loathe because I haven't got time for it :laughing: , YES to Immunisation, and big NO NO to Circ :thumbsup:
Rhys'Mum
27-02-2006, 09:12
Sorry, didn't see the posts above (Ok only read the first couple of pages) and feel like I walked into the middle of something. Still haven't read it all but wld like to comment on above. Long post too, sorry.
As we all know this is an issue that is likely to spark emotions. But it seemed to me that this post asked for opinions and info on the choices we'd made. - Isn't the value of opinion pieces to see what other people think, to see another point of view and to share your own.
I realise that sometimes emotion can creep in and with an often impersonal tool like email and posting you can't always tell how someone meant to say something. What might have just been a quick comment can be taken as hurtful and condescending and sometimes it is, but that doesn't mean we necessarily need to feel hurt. People from this forum are from all walks of life, with different values, experiences and beliefs. Just like you choose your friends in real life and value their opinions and ignore those you don't care for, you can do the same in the cyber world.
That said, it is a public forum and a lampooning can be embarrassing... sorry if anyone feels lampooned just I like to hear different points of view and starting a war just stops the discussion and alienates people with different views.
ThomasMum
27-02-2006, 09:19
Oh don't worry Ryh'smum. At the end of the day, we all have the same reason why we are here in the first place, to exchange our experience in parenting. As long as you respect and value others opinions no matter how different they are, we are all should be laughing, :laughing:
:yelclap:
Thanks to all who are offering their experiences and information.:)
Lets respect that and get back to the topic at hand. Is there a correlation between choosing to vax and choosing to circumcise? What are your views?
CrazyBeautiful
28-02-2006, 15:57
I vax both my kids. As for circumcism, I guess being born in 1970, about 99% of men I have known are circumcised, so this was the 'norm' for me. I have chosen not to circumcise my little boy and figure that the decision is up to him if he decides when he's old enough to make an informed decision. After all it's his body. To point out though, I am not anti-circumcism and believe it's a personal decision.
I've just deleted two off topic posts - hence the final warning.
Please keep to the topic or start a new thread. This thread is for sharing the reasons WHY you choose (or not) to circ or vax. Ppl who post here should be able to without being sniped at. Please present your own views, post YOUR experience and / or research - do not attack other views.
rockabye
28-02-2006, 21:26
Hey there!
Thought I'd jump in on this one.
Firstly my DS is circumcised, he was born with only 1/2 a foreskin, so we didn't have a choice but to have it done. Though if we did have a choice, i still would have gone for it. I'm not justifying just as I won't ask you to justify your choices.
Interesting: the statistics for circumcisions: 20 years ago 1 boy in a football team wasn't circumcised, today 1 boy in a football team is.
Vaccinations:
Let me make this REALLY clear. I totally respect other opinions on this matter.
Here's mine:
I couldn't live with myself if I didn't get my child immunised and as a result of this they contracted a disease. Yes I would feel terrible if they got sick after an immunisation but know that I did it with good intentions (cruel to be kind). I always pay 200% attention to my child after an immunisation.
A friend of mine had a 5 week old baby she was at home, her baby asleep, she was about to go to the clothes line but decided to check on bub, she went in there and she was blue. it turned out she had contracted a severe virus from and unimmunised child and could have been dead in a matter of minutes.
That scares the hell out of me.
I really beleive that we will start to have epidemics with disease that could have been prevented by immunisations. Especially with the immigration into this country. (i'm not having a shot at other nations either, but there are plenty of countries not as well of as us, who don't have the choice to have immunisations and carry alot of diseases.)
We have got rid of many diseases through immunisations.
vespertine
25-03-2006, 11:46
I didn't get my son circed and wouldn't with any future children. He was born whole and complete, and I don't feel it's my right to remove part of his body without his consent. I intend to show him how to keep him penis clean which should prevent infection. I believe that circumcision is ******** and a violation of the child's body, hence I would never do it to any of my children. If he wants to choose it himself later, that's up to him.
I don't vaccinate either. Once again, I feel injecting anything into his body without his consent would be a violation. IMO, vaccinations contain potentially harmful ingredients. Illness can be treated if caught early, but negative effects and reactions to vax can't be treated, they're permanent. I've researched the symptoms to all illnesseses in the vax schedual so I'll know if something isn't right and will seek treatment immediately. Once again, when he's older he can choose what goes into his own body.
why would haveing "half " a foreskin mean that you have to cut the other half off?
How can "half a foreskin" even be diagnosed? they are all different lengths.
browniebear
25-03-2006, 15:56
In my opinion, the two are unrelated.
All my children are vaccinated, because I do not want them to go through any illness that can possibly cause death, but not only that, as a parent I have a wider social responsibility too, to ensure that my children don't pass on illness to other children.
As for circumcision, I am definately against that simply that they are born with it for a reason. Also, I wouldn't circumcise our daughters because that would be 'genital mutilation', so why should we do our son? Owen can decide for himself when he is older if he wants it done.
But in saying that, I don't care if anyone else decides to get it done to their son, it's just not for me is all.
as a parent I have a wider social responsibility too, to ensure that my children don't pass on illness to other children.
Browniebear (or anyone else), I know this will sound like an ignorant question but I mean it sincerely:
I have always been confused about the issue of non-vaxed kids passing things on to vaxed kids. Isn't the whole point of vaccinating kids to protect them from those illnesses? :confused:
the_queen
25-03-2006, 17:57
Cosmic, I hear what you're saying. And you're right: if my unvax'd 5 yr old catches measles, then technically the other kids in his class who have been vax'd will not be at risk. After all, that is the whole point of vaccination - to prevent your child from catching the disease from someone else.
But I think the fear is that an unvaxed school-age child (for example) will pass on a disease such as pertussis (whooping cough) to a newborn baby, too young to have even had the chance to be vaccinated yet. Sadly, pertussis is generally fatal in newborns, but an older child (while they will get very sick) can and often do recover.
It's such a confusing issue - I just read in the paper the other day that Adelaide has a pertussis epidemic happening currently. I haven't made a final decision about vax for Chomper yet, but the fear factor alone is enough for me to say "that's it, no more research, I just don't want my bubba to catch something that will kill him" :(
reAllytee
25-03-2006, 23:09
Browniebear (or anyone else), I know this will sound like an ignorant question but I mean it sincerely:
I have always been confused about the issue of non-vaxed kids passing things on to vaxed kids. Isn't the whole point of vaccinating kids to protect them from those illnesses? :confused:
From what i gather in her comment this is what she means but maybe im wrong :confused:
I take what she says as though she is making sure her kids are vaccinated so that they dont get an illness that then gets passed on.
Its just that most people dont understand that a child can still get any of these diseases but it wont be deadly unlike when a child is un-vaxed & contracts it. So in reality the idea of being responsible for society isnt quite right because we are just often reducing the verocity of an illness so it cant kill or disable.
Another thing people dont realise in saying that an illness like some we vax against can be cured or treated if caught early enough & this is very untrue. If your child gets polio you cant be assured what will happen to them let alone be assured they can be treated for it. Yes a lot of kids babies etc can be treated for measles or the likes but some cant especially if it hits the brain straight off.
why would haveing "half " a foreskin mean that you have to cut the other half off?
How can "half a foreskin" even be diagnosed? they are all different lengths.
Hi AndrewJ
I have a friend whose son has a hypospadia and his foreskin does not go all the way round his penis. I'm thinking this is what was meant by "half". Just guessing though :confused:
Cheers
From what i gather in her comment this is what she means but maybe im wrong :confused:
I take what she says as though she is making sure her kids are vaccinated so that they dont get an illness that then gets passed on.
Its just that most people dont understand that a child can still get any of these diseases but it wont be deadly unlike when a child is un-vaxed & contracts it. So in reality the idea of being responsible for society isnt quite right because we are just often reducing the verocity of an illness so it cant kill or disable.
Another thing people dont realise in saying that an illness like some we vax against can be cured or treated if caught early enough & this is very untrue. If your child gets polio you cant be assured what will happen to them let alone be assured they can be treated for it. Yes a lot of kids babies etc can be treated for measles or the likes but some cant especially if it hits the brain straight off.
I think the vast majority of people do understand these things, but in the decision to not vax, much much research is usually done and the decision is not made lightly, what concerns people who chose not to do it is the other things that go into these vaccines and the effects they can have on their children long term. My dh is against it, he feels that the very slim chance of our children contracting these diseases is not worth what can happen to them from having the vaccines, he has however grudgingly allowed me to have them vaxed, although i am considering not continuing with Tillys, or at least do what we did with Coops and wait till he was 2 1/2 before having the 12 mth and 18 mths ones, we found he coped 110% better with them when he was that bit older. :)
reAllytee
26-03-2006, 20:29
Yeah i know that Erin :) I would never believe most who choose not to vax do so without reading & reading & reading & reading ! I couldnt do it for many reasons but even though i think they should consider it i understand their reasons. My mum who is very pro vax due to having polio even held me off due to my bad reactions so i think those parents who do so only do it for their childrens well being just as much as those who dont vax at all.
I was just talking about the generalisation that vaccinations make sure a child doesnt get an illness that those who DO vax seem to think it does when its only a barrier so to speak that will either yes full protect a child or just make it so it is a less problematic strain.
Anyways all im doing is :ecomcity: now LOL so i shall shut up & be away from here hehe.
ahhhh, i get ya, thanks. :)
browniebear
27-03-2006, 11:40
My apologies if my post confused some. All I meant was that if my un-vax child caught an illness and then passed it on to another un-vax child and so on, it could be potentially harmful to a lot of people, not just children but adults as well. We are a very multicultural society with a lot of tourism and not everyone who comes here would be vaccinated for the illnesses our children are vaccinated for or have a strong enough immune system to fight it off.
Also, I'd never forgive myself if my un-vax child passed on pertussis to a newborn and they got really ill or worse. So I chose to vaccinate them. If there is an outbreak of measles etc, then an un-vax child is excluded from school for the duration of the outbreak too.
howdy,
we have 2 boys, both circumcised, & both fully vaccinated! cheers :thumbsup:
We are for both. #3 should it be a boy will also be circ'd and fully vaxed aswell.
yeah i know what you mean...and thats why my daughter is getting double DD's whether she likes it or not.
we all know males never wash themselves properly as they get older also LOL.
I just want to get off track for one little sec, my DH, being an uncirced man and all is more than capable of washing himself extremely well, (as are all the men i know :confused: )he is obsessed with hygeine and cleanliness!!
oh and degslou and sarie, thats the way its done, straight to the point, no nonsense posts :thumbsup: really must start to take a leaf out of your books :rolleyes: ;)
the_queen
04-04-2006, 22:57
yeah i know what you mean...and thats why my daughter is getting double DD's whether she likes it or not.
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
Good to have you back in the conversation AndrewJ :thumbsup:
mysonroger
14-04-2006, 13:25
i would love to read it all on this thread, but can't in one sitting. so i don't know if i'm repeating an idea.......
do you think that all the people who don't vaccinate shoulld be grateful to all the people that do, because vaccinations are helping preventing all thos common illness from becoming epidemics. because there are so many vaccinated children out there, the community is healthier for all those unvaccinated children; a symbiotic relationship..............
i can't possibly comment on circum without getting upset because i can not even relate to the idea of circum a boy..........i will never understand that mindset.
Sara's Boys
19-04-2006, 16:56
I have vaccinated my son and will do so with all my children.
I have not and will not alter my son in any way including circum. My husband isn't, and I have found with any one I know, it's usually because the father of the child, wants the son to be the same in that department, which, to me is the wrong reason. However I am not really sure that there is even a right reason. I wouldn't circumcise my daughter and so I won't do it to my son.
bossoflatch
19-04-2006, 20:15
What an interesting read..... i guess as long as whatever decision is made is an imformed one, it doesn't really matter what everyone else thinks.
Personally, I have two boys, and the decision was made to circumcise the boys, yes their father is done, but that was not the reason.... well not for cosmetic reasons!!
As soon as we found out we were having boys, my husband explained his concerns... he had the unfortunate experience of the tightening of the foreskin when he was four years old. He has always said, he doesn't remember much of his childhood but that is one of his worst memories . There seems to be a family history, his brother also had the same thing happen to him 18 months later at the same age.
As a mother, i was still not sure, so I looked into it further and with what i found, we believed it to be in the boys best interest to go ahead. My husband was too adamant that it wasn't going to happen to our boys.
Pobblebonk
21-04-2006, 15:14
Hi. The father of my son was circ'd as a baby as were his two brothers and his father. They botched the operation and they had to wait until he was about 8 years old before they could fix it up.
His mother tried to force us to have our son circ'd because it was 'tradition', and tried to give me all these reasons why it's better/safer/cleaner - she had them botch one of her own son's circ's and she's STILL trying to get people to do it.
The both of us were completely AGAINST getting it done - my son's father more so than I seeing as tho he has lived through when it can go wrong - and is quite angry about the fact that he didn't get a choice.
I would never get a daughter circumcised - so why would I get my son circumcised. And who am I to deny my son whatever sexual pleasure he might get from having his foreskin?
If my son chooses to have it done when he is old enough to understand fully what circumcision is, then I will fully support his decision. It's his body, after all.
As with immunisation - I think the benefits of having my son immunised far outweighs the 'benefits' of not having him immunised. How would I feel if I'd decided not to have him immunised and he caught a virus/disease that was so easily preventable by immunisation?
I see it this way - immunisation is enhancing my son's quality of life by reducing the risk of him contracting certain life-changing virus'/diseases. Circumcision is reducing my son's quality of life.
What an interesting read..... i guess as long as whatever decision is made is an imformed one, it doesn't really matter what everyone else thinks.
Personally, I have two boys, and the decision was made to circumcise the boys, yes their father is done, but that was not the reason.... well not for cosmetic reasons!!
As soon as we found out we were having boys, my husband explained his concerns... he had the unfortunate experience of the tightening of the foreskin when he was four years old. He has always said, he doesn't remember much of his childhood but that is one of his worst memories . There seems to be a family history, his brother also had the same thing happen to him 18 months later at the same age.
As a mother, i was still not sure, so I looked into it further and with what i found, we believed it to be in the boys best interest to go ahead. My husband was too adamant that it wasn't going to happen to our boys.
I have been in your shoes Leisa, we also have phimosis in our family (2 of my 3 brothers being circ'd at age 4) and my boys needed it last year because I hadnt wanted to mutilate them at birth, and then ended up torturing them with phimosis anyway :banghead: ...... (those without sons with phimosis truly dont understand!) My husband got himself circ'd a few months before them, to be the same as them, he felt so guilty that they had to be done, and he has had no issues, and in fact things are alot better for us in certain ways ;)
needless to say my newborn will be circ'd after 8 days, rather than waiting to see if he loses the phimosis lottery, as I have witnessed my nephew being circ'd as a newborn, and he wasnt effected in the slightest, and he didnt even have a local (I do however want my baby to have at least a local if possible). He cried only when they put the clamp on because it was cold, his crying had nothing to do with the cut (my brother is a Jewish convert, (who incidently had phimosis as a child also), so this is why I attended the Bris). He went straight out of the room afterwards and my SIL contentedly breast fed him, and he promptly went off to sleep....he has always been extremely cuddly, calm and content, and his personality was the same before and after the circ.....but then a circ in Judaism is a big celebration, and there are only positive vibes and love in the air in which the baby is bathed.....he is actually more calm and contented than all my boys (v. jealous ) !
I actually see a correlation between the effects of the experience of circ and vax.....my 1st 2 sons screamed violently when being confronted by the needles for vax, I think mostly because they were picking up my negative anxious vibes, as I HATE needles!....My 3rd son recently had 2 vax's done, and I totally controlled the vibes he was picking up on when he had them, and he was only squeaking about the freddo frog I was keeping just out of his reach whilst the dr gave them to him (dr kept trying to warn me that he WOULD scream and to be ready for it)....my boy never screamed once, barely noticed the needles jabbing in his legs, and the dr was very impressed! What a contrast to my past vax experiences!
I have come to the conclusion that it is about environment. If you create a postive environment, the kids pick up on this, and especially newborns, who's only language is emotion....so we will have a party and happiness when my newborn is circ'd and he will only be bathed in positivity and love.....His associations with the procedure will be that the pain was brief, but everyone is so proud and in love with him! Worked for my nephew....
There are whole movements of men out there who wish they'd been circ'd and get themselves circ'd as adults - for many reasons, including for fetish reasons :eek: ..... so it cant be the huge negative that people make it out to be..... I guess that is why a ban would never be passed, as there are too many men who actually prefer being circ'd....(and women who like their men that way...)...each to their own I say!
whilst I am not really in agreement with routine infant circumcision for cosmetic purposes for my own children, and if there was no phimosis in my family I wouldnt have dreamt of having it done, I will not however judge any parent who decides to have it done for any reason they have.....Who am I to judge? Millions of Jewish men over the past few millenia can testify to the procedure being non-emotionally-scarring to them in the long run....so who am I to argue with those who speak from personal experience? I am a woman after all.....and having had spoken to alot of Jewish men about this, since I have a family connection to them now, I have not yet met one who regrets their circ, and I specifically asked around before I had my sons done, just to gain some peace of mind about doing it.....
I think it comes down to the fact that you dont HAVE to have it done if you dont want to.....noone is forcing you.....but if you need it to be done or if you want to do it for your personal reasons, I dont actually believe that any mutilation is taking place......my boys arent 'mutilated'....they are normal and healthy and functioning better than before their circ.....
gee it's an emotional issue, but I really think that circ'd men should be the only ones to make the judgements on the issue, as they are really the only ones who know the reality of circumcision.....
I hate men having an opinion on childbirth, since they cannot ever know the reality of it, so I imagine men would hate me having an opinion about circumcision, since how could I ever personally know? ;)
gee it's an emotional issue, but I really think that circ'd men should be the only ones to make the judgements on the issue, as they are really the only ones who know the reality of circumcision.....
I hate men having an opinion on childbirth, since they cannot ever know the reality of it, so I imagine men would hate me having an opinion about circumcision, since how could I ever personally know? ;)
With you becca - our son isn't done, but if my hubby had felt strongly about getting him done then who would I have been to have said no? Do I have a penis? (sorry to anyone offended by that), but just for the record - no, I don't!
I probably would get him some paraphenalia to read first, but at the end of the day - this is definitely a topic where I am a novice. Having said that - it's probably one of the reasons that I was so upset when I found out my 10year old DSS was getting circ'd without any discussion with his father...Also why my hubby was so upset about it too....:mad: (okay - not upset - mad)
the_queen
22-04-2006, 07:29
I can certainly appreciate the point of view that "the mother doesn't have a penis, therefore she doesn't know the full story". But (please note this is my personal opinion about my babies, not an indictment or judgement on other people's personal opinions about their babies) I just could not let anyone do anything surgical (that was not medically indicated) to any of my children's genitals. Full Stop. The mumma-lion in me would not allow it. A man who was circumcised as a baby really only knows what it's like to be circumcised - he doesn't know what it's like to be intact.
mysonroger
22-04-2006, 10:28
i
i can't possibly comment on circum without getting upset because i can not even relate to the idea of circum a boy..........i will never understand that mindset.
i should clarify that i can't relate to circum if it is for non-medical and religious reasons. i had never heard of phimosis (ooops...spelling)
I can certainly appreciate the point of view that "the mother doesn't have a penis, therefore she doesn't know the full story". But (please note this is my personal opinion about my babies, not an indictment or judgement on other people's personal opinions about their babies) I just could not let anyone do anything surgical (that was not medically indicated) to any of my children's genitals. Full Stop. The mumma-lion in me would not allow it. A man who was circumcised as a baby really only knows what it's like to be circumcised - he doesn't know what it's like to be intact.
I so agree, any thoughts i may have (hypothetically) about 'oh well its dhs choice, he has a willy, i dont' would be strongly over rided by my desire to protect my child, i dont see how because they have the same bits that should give him more rights in that sort of decision? besides, seriously, how many boys when they are older regulary see their fathers penis? so what if they look different, when they are little, they wouldnt notice anyway, and even if they do i would just say something like 'you have an extra piece of skin on yours, daddy doesnt'
I suppose it is an odd thing for me to comment on as our son isn't circumcised, so I don't know how strongly I'd feel about it if my hubby had wanted him done - dont' know - I might have kicked up a storm.
gee it's an emotional issue, but I really think that circ'd men should be the only ones to make the judgements on the issue, as they are really the only ones who know the reality of circumcision.....
Circumcised men only know of their own experience growing up with a circumcised penis, I don't think it's wise to get a baby circumcised on the weight of an anecdote and ignore the overwhelming evidence that circumcision is unnecessary (most cases of phismosis can be treated without circumcision) and potentially harmful. You're also unlikely to get an unbiased opinion from a circumcised man, who certainly doesn't want to think about the fact that his penis has been modified without his consent and he might be missing out on something.
As for vaccination, I have had my child vaccinated, as I didn't want to be the one responsible for her death from a vaccine preventable disease (my inlaws probably would have lynched me), but I have no problem with people being conscientious objectors to vaccination.
( I dont want to make anyone angry or dislike me so please dont, love me :) )
On the issue of circumsision (sp?) There really isn't any reason to do it. Does any one actually know whay they started it? In the war men didnt have showers and dirt and sand got in there and it became infected, thus the reason they started circumsision. When you think about it in todays world there isnt really a need to have it done other than for relegion or cosmetic. They can make it illegal to dock a dogs tail but it is still legal to chop off our children's foreskin?
again i just want to say i didnt mean to offend anyone but i am just very much against it.
On the issue of not being vaccinated i was just wondering about kindygarden and preschool i thought you had to have your children vaccinated to be able to send them there. Is this true? Im not quite sure where i heard it and if my source is reliable. lol
On the issue of not being vaccinated i was just wondering about kindygarden and preschool i thought you had to have your children vaccinated to be able to send them there. Is this true? Im not quite sure where i heard it and if my source is reliable. lol
There are a few hoops to jump through, but you can get registered as a Conscientious Objector, which will allow to you send your child to kindy and preschool. Your child will however be excluded during any outbreak of disease, possibly for several weeks.
Ange&Seth
24-04-2006, 04:25
We had DS circ'd for many reasons - and I nearly didn't go through with it coz I thought of him being in pain, and us being the reason for it. But then I remembered the reasons we were doing it, one of them being that he wouldn't remember the pain at this age (he was 3 wks old) and if it had to be done when he was older, he would have rememebered it and probably taken longer to heal.
We also immunise him, for the peace of mind that he won't be affected by a preventable disease.
I agree that it is a purely personal choice - I don't look down on those people who choose not to circ their boys because their boys might have problems later in life, so I don't think anyone should look down on us for deciding to have him done so that the chance of him having problems was severely diminished. Not that I'm saying anyone here has 'looked down' on people who have chosen to circ, to be honest, I haven't read all the posts :o
we can agree to disgaree on everything apart from this.
That circumcising a baby is somehow a "personal" decision.
Of course its personal because YOU make the decision, but thats not what a personal decision means. My neighbours explained this to me when i "personally decided" to paint their house green.
It is entirely this issue, why many people do feel like they have the right (duty) to step in on this particular (and unique) matter.
But we make "personal decisions" for our children all the time and the flaw in the painted house analogy is that it is illegal for you to paint another person's house without their consent, but it is legal to circumcise (or immunise, discipline by smacking, get your kid's ears pierced or force your kid onto a vegetarian diet).
These are all issues on which we establish our own philosophy, which won't necessarily be the same as that either our children or other parents agree on. But the common thread is that even though we've made different decisions on all of the above points, I believe that most ppl do what they believe to be in the best interest of their child.
It's great to be able to share our different points of view.
Cheers
mysonroger
24-04-2006, 17:12
we can agree to disgaree on everything apart from this.
That circumcising a baby is somehow a "personal" decision.
Of course its personal because YOU make the decision, but thats not what a personal decision means. My neighbours explained this to me when i "personally decided" to paint their house green.
It is entirely this issue, why many people do feel like they have the right (duty) to step in on this particular (and unique) matter.
yeah, i actually didn't get the painted house thing; is it that andrew made a decision about a nother person's property???? thus parents making decision about a boy's body?
"It is entirely this issue, why many people do feel like they have the right (duty) to step in on this particular (and unique) matter " - does that mean you don't like the way parents make the decision or do you no t like the way people are posting their opinions???
as you can see, i'm not sure where andrew is coming from.
the_queen
24-04-2006, 17:22
I think (and I'm sure AndrewJ will correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick here) what Andrew is trying to say is the basic "His penis, his choice" statement, versus the "Our child, our choice" statement.
That even though the child is "ours", we perhaps shouldn't make a decision about whether or not he should retain his foreskin or not; we should leave that decision for him to make when he is old enough to do so.
:)
reAllytee
24-04-2006, 17:46
But we make "personal decisions" for our children all the time and the flaw in the painted house analogy is that it is illegal for you to paint another person's house without their consent, but it is legal to circumcise (or immunise, discipline by smacking, get your kid's ears pierced or force your kid onto a vegetarian diet).
These are all issues on which we establish our own philosophy, which won't necessarily be the same as that either our children or other parents agree on. But the common thread is that even though we've made different decisions on all of the above points, I believe that most ppl do what they believe to be in the best interest of their child.
It's great to be able to share our different points of view.
Cheers
As always xkwzit :yelclap:
But we make "personal decisions" for our children all the time and the flaw in the painted house analogy is that it is illegal for you to paint another person's house without their consent, but it is legal to circumcise (or immunise, discipline by smacking, get your kid's ears pierced or force your kid onto a vegetarian diet).
Surely a personal decision, and one where you are justified in ignoring other peoples advice, is one that affects you, not one simply that is made by you.
The difference in my analogy is true. But what you are saying is that the law is always unquestionable. Just because it is legal to do something, then it is justified.
Only 10 years ago, i could have used the analogy of female circumcision which, according to Austalias all knowing law makers was a legal (and therefore justified?) thing to perform on a child.
I believe that most ppl do what they believe to be in the best interest of their child
I agree, but unfortunately what people believe about circumcision, is often based on some very sketchy stuff.
CarolineF
24-04-2006, 21:17
Just posted a new thread here (DOH!!!!) on the effect of non vax in the uK. The results were quite scary in reality. It really is food for thought.:detective:
mysonroger
24-04-2006, 21:29
Just posted a new thread here (DOH!!!!) on the effect of non vax in the uK. The results were quite scary in reality. It really is food for thought.:detective:
oh goody goody i'm off to read it.
mysonroger
24-04-2006, 21:43
oh goody goody i'm off to read it.
ok i did read it and wrote another post, but it was just echoing my post from a few pages ago............so i deleted it. no need to bang on about the same thing twice.
CarolineF
24-04-2006, 22:23
i got a bit lost reading them all. did not mean to repeat anything...if I did!! I just think people tend to forget that these diseases are only dormant because people do vaccinate their kids which benefits those who don't. Its just in the UK the balance of power is working in favour of the disease and children are suffering. Its not an epidemic but drs are starting to talk in such terms unless attitudes change.:eek:
Its a worry.....at least I know my child will not develop them.:ecomcity:
Hi Caroline (and mysonroger)
Don't worry about repeating yourself, we all tend to do it. You'll see some topics come up again and again, while you're still interested in the debate go for it - seriously no-one minds and I think it helps out the newer ppl who have not got to all the older threads yet.
Cheers
mysonroger
25-04-2006, 15:20
Hi Caroline (and mysonroger)
Don't worry about repeating yourself, we all tend to do it. You'll see some topics come up again and again, while you're still interested in the debate go for it - seriously no-one minds and I think it helps out the newer ppl who have not got to all the older threads yet.
Cheers
i wanted to repeat my post because no one answered the question i posed, but if they didn't the first time why would they the second. and sometimes, if i feel passionately enough i become a bit over zealous and i come across as a bi*ch and not the calm rational accepting person that i am (not). so i thought i'd better leave it alone. but i wanted to say something along the lines of ' i told you so'.
see, i couldn't help myself.
SamanthaJane
25-04-2006, 16:22
If its a boy for us then no circ. personal choice is all it is:D
however, yes to vax i couldnt live with myself if bubs got sick because i hadnt taken him to get a vax
Everyone will always have their own opinions, but as long as you feel happy with the decisions you make, i think thats what really counts:D
cjb/jbvd
27-04-2006, 11:08
:wave:
interesting choice of topic
i choose to vaccinate my son because as a defence member, there is always the possibility i could bring something home with me and maybe give it to him. i know this is unrealistic, but you just never know. also with the large number of immigrants and refugees that come into the country without vaccination, it is entirely possible that some new diseases could start circulating. i can't bear the thought of my DS getting a disease i could have done something to prevent. :crying:
as for circumcision.......there is plenty of research to show there are some medical/health benefits to having it done. for example: lower risk of contracting aids, lower cancer risk, less urinary tract infection, and a host of other things less major but still worth considering. there are also factors like serious infection, or something going wrong and have penile dysfunction to argue against circumcision.
when it comes to causing my son that kind of intense pain and doing something to permanently scar his body without his consent, i just can't do it. i wouldn't get his ear pierced at this age either for the same reason. i believe that physical alteration of your body should be your own choice, not that of your parent. i put circumcision right up there with tattoos. if he makes an informed choice to do it when he's old enough, i will support it.
of course, every parent does what they ultimately feel is right for their child. so it isn't for us to criticise either way. :hugs:
thanks for letting me share this
angel_one
07-05-2006, 16:41
ok, i have done both, my kids are vaxed and my boy is cir (purely daddys department (and yes i did research and i had my little bit*h to dh but in the end we decided to get it done) but the cir im not worried about. (dont take this the wrong way any one im just curious) for those of you who do not vac, why is this? i mean they have been created to help us so they cant really be that bad right?
and secondly, how does it work that all children have to be vax, unless they have a objection thingy?, if there are a few that arent vax doesnt that defeat the whole purpose of having all kids vax to protect them????
any way just a few questions that have been in my head for a while now.
thanks
Hi Angel_one
I believe there are some ppl who can help you out in this thread, they've given some of their non-vaxxing reasons and might be willing to chat more:
http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=18806
Cheers
madvoice
07-05-2006, 23:43
I vaccinate but won't circumsize unless it is deemed medically necessary.
I'm pro both. If we have a boy next time, we will get him circ'ed. My husbands heritage is jewish and he and his father are done, so I have no problem with it. But I can also understand why people wouldn't want to do it and could find the whole thing ********. Each to his own.
As for vaccination, I think you just have to be comfortable with what ever you chose. There are risks involved either way........If you don't get it done your child may get sick and if you do get it done your child may get sick. I just tend to lean towards prevention rather than cure, so we do it. :)
in judaism the fathers heritage is irrelavent.
***reference to deleted post removed by moderator***
I though andrewJ's comment was entirely relevant. There are parents circumcising their boys under the mistaken impression that they have to do it for religious reasons, when this is no longer the case.
Here's a couple of relevant links:
Circumcision for Religious Reasons (http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/religious.htm)
Jewish Circumcision Resource Centre (http://www.jewishcircumcision.org/thejmonthly1991.htm)
I'll concede that we have veered off topic. :rolleyes:
I've gone through and deleted some off topic posts. Can we please keep to the original topic of discussion the connection (or not) of choosing to vaccinate or circumcise? If we degenerate into the personal attack area again, this thread will be closed.
Cheers
Hey, i am totally for vaccination! It is totally horrible getting it done and seeing those little bumps on bubs legs, but in the long run it will hurt him a lot more to get the disease. But if they come up with a needle free option for vaccination i would be one happy mumma lol. Yeah i know - fat chance.
As for circ... i wanted to get Cooper done before he was born, but now that i have seen his innocent little face, there is no way i could put him through that much pain. I have no medical or religious reasons for doing it, so i'm not going to. That said, his dad (i am a single mum), really wants him to be done, so i told him if he wanted it down that badly he can organize it and hold him etc. - i haven't heard another word about it since.
Just curious...if its only the pain of the actual procedure that people are against it because of, then why not just wait until they are over 6 months, then they can have anaesthetic :confused: Or do I have that wrong?
Anaesthetic makes them go doolally (from my experience with my boys last year). A local can be given quite early on, or a mild sedative if the parents want. Also, I was told that if you dont do it in the first couple of months after a baby is born, you then have to wait till they are at least 12 months old, as anaesthetic is too risky before they are 1.
Most of the crying of the new baby occurs because they have been stripped off - as any parent knows when they are bathing/nappy changing a newborn, most just hate being naked and will certainly make a protest about it. When my nephew was done at 8 days, he started crying when they undressed him from the waist down, but stopped the minute the Mohel re-covered him, which was only moments after the Bris. You'd never have known anything had just happened to him - he went straight to mummy, had a lovely big bf and promptly fell asleep :sleeping: .
Harlequin
17-05-2006, 14:45
I'm vaxing but not circ'ing. Only problem is my hubbie wants to circ' because he is circ'ed.
My mum told me when the baby is born to take him to listen to the babies being circumsized. She said its something she will never forget.
If I was to let my husband have his way, which probably won't happen, i'd get it done at a later date so at least then the baby/toddler can have anaesthetic.
Just curious...if its only the pain of the actual procedure that people are against it because of, then why not just wait until they are over 6 months, then they can have anaesthetic :confused: Or do I have that wrong?
just letting you know that for me at least, the pain is a very minor aspect of my stance.
if being circumcised felt great, i would still oppose it being performed routinely.
Aquamarine
27-05-2006, 22:52
I am for vaccination. I wouldn't forgive myself if any of my children were seriously sick because I chose not to vaccinate them.
I am against circumcision for my own children.
If they decide they would like to have it done later on in life I will stand by their decision but I don't feel it is my decision to make.
In fact I have heard of cases where parents have been sued later in life because they had their boys circumcised without their permission.
I also could not stand to see them in pain, it would break my heart.
If for medical reasons I was told they had to be circumcised of course I would for their own health, but until that happens or they chose to have it done themselves, no way!
BradysMum2
03-06-2006, 15:28
Hi,
I have always had my children, DD 15, DD 12 and DS 6mths Vaccinated. i also always thought i would have any son of mine circumcised. i did extensive reading about the pros and cons while i was pregnant with Brady and decided i would prefer it done. I had a doctor, (i used to work with him as a nurse) picked out ready to do the procedure as well, he uses the plasti-bell procedure.
Then DS Brady was born 03/12/2005 and i took one look at his tiny penis and foreskin and completely changed my mind. i know that there are risks that he may need it done further down teh track, but i also know he may need his tonsills, appendix or any other operation done too.
I am not against circumcision in anyway, i think it is a totally personal choice for parents to make.
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