View Full Version : Is circumcision "nobody elses business"?
Pippi Longstocking
23-02-2006, 09:54
I would like to discuss the "none of my business" idea. I understand that this is an emotive topic and will try hard to not cause offense yet it is difficult to be tactful.
If a child is being abused in some way, is it our business? For example, if a baby was being burnt with a cigarette? Is it our responsibility to act on this and make sure it doesn't happen again? I remember ages ago, a father in America was charged with child abuse because he tattooed his son - he wrote the kids name on his son's forearm. I personally beleive that when a child is being harmed, it becomes our business. We all have a duty to protect children.
I feel that circumcision harms children. My boys are safe so essentially, people could argue that what others do is not my business. But for me, in just the same way as child abuse becomes my business, so too does the issue of circumcision. I want to protect little boys from this painful and traumatic procedure.
Oh, and I wish to point out that the child abuse and circ. was a comparison. I am not implying that people who circumcise are child abusers.
Edit/Delete Message
dont want to turn this into an argument but seems like this sparked from the other thread we were in and i used the term "none of my business"
but i chose not to circumcise. i didnt want to cause unnecessary pain. my choice. and without going back into it. i said that it is none of my business what anothe rfamily chooses.
we cannot stop them, you can tell them how YOU feel, but u cannot go into their life and undo what they have done! they made a decision, its not something you agree with, but something u cant change.
Ana Gram
23-02-2006, 10:30
While circumcision is still legal in this country, it is nobody else's business.
Personally, I would like to see the laws change on ear piercing and that it gets put with every other body modification ,18+.
I agree with the ear piercing chelle, and also that it is no one else business if you circ your child or not, BUT if someone choses to come into a public forum and tell people they have had it done, or discuss it in other ways, then havnt they just made it other peoples business? i have things i dont think are anybody elses business, so i dont bring them up.
I personally question the need for ANOTHER circ thread, it has been done to death on numerous other threads. You need to accept that this procedure is legal, and it is the parent's business and not anyone elses'. You can argue the pros and cons until you're blue in the face, but when it comes to the crunch, you simply do not have the power nor the right to tell other parents what to do.
oh hear hear on so many of them comments.. including yours darkstar.. this topic has been DONE
however i feel i made some people mad by saying it was "none of my business" in another thread.
my point was i cant MAKE people change their decision.
we each made one, and i dont see how critisising them now will take it back. whats done is done.
and saying "its none of my business" means i would prefer not to start an argument about circumcising. i just had my say about what i decided to do with MY boy.
Pippi Longstocking
23-02-2006, 10:58
The reason I started another thread was because I was instructed to in a different one. I personally was happy to continue the discussion there but was directed to start this *shrugs*:)
While circumcision is still legal in this country, it is nobody else's business.
If we don't challenge current laws, how can we change them? If we don't make it our business, things will remain the same. Can we afford to be apathetic when it comes to the safety of children?:confused:
And Dannii, I wasn't trying to single you out - it wasn't your comment that sparked me to ask the question :) . I have heard many many other people say the same thing and I just wanted to discuss it further. :)
Pippi Longstocking
23-02-2006, 11:01
Oh and another thing. I realise that you guys probably have done circumcision to death. But I and possibly other newbies haven't. That is the way of forums - there are always going to be newbies starting old topics :) . Please don't feel that you have to join in if you are bored with the topic. :)
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 11:28
While circumcision is still legal in this country, it is nobody else's business.
I totally agree Chelle:)
COmparing circumcision to burning a child with a cigarette??? Hmmm, doesn't seem right to me:( Someone who was to burn someone else's flech with a cigarette would do so (you would think) to cause intentional pain or to release some kind of pent up unhealthy frustration, I very much doubt a medical circumcision would be done for these reasons:)
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 11:30
If we don't make it our business, things will remain the same. Can we afford to be apathetic when it comes to the safety of children?
Child safety and circumcision are two totally different things...I havent circumcised either of my boys and I wouldnt but I REALLY dont think it is any of my business whether other people choose to. CHild abuse, YES, circumcisoin, NO
reAllytee
23-02-2006, 11:56
It is nobodys business.
I wont get into this because im becoming quite tired of having to explain myself as to why ive had my son done.
We never question a parent who doesnt circumcise so why should a parent who choose to for their reasons have to explain themselves when it is their choice to do whats right for their child.
Whether you like it or not there is a choice & parents who do do it are doing what they believe is right for often many various reasons whether you agree with that or not really doesnt matter as again it is none of your business nor is it your choice because again its the parents.
Sorry but to compare it to child abuse is very inflammatory & ridiculous.
But then i wonder whether you will be questioned about your reasoning for making comments & starting such a thread.
While it is legal then other people have no say in the parents decision to circ or not to circ. So therefore it is pretty much no one elses business.
However, If you want it to be illegal then you have to go through the correct procedures to lobby to change the law.
which are along the lines of
*find like minded people (parents, citizens, doctors, professional medical groups etc)
*form a lobby group
*start petitions/awareness campaigns/public debates/make it a current affairs issue (on the news, phone in polls, ACA etc)
*contact members of parliament for support/
*Make it an issue of concern to the community
*Once the issue is out there (ie you have awareness)and you have support for it then you need a MP or party to draft a bill and get it through parliament.
:) sounds like a lot of hardwork to me really but if people want to make circ their business thats how you'd go about it. :D
Ana Gram
23-02-2006, 11:57
If we don't challenge current laws, how can we change them? If we don't make it our business, things will remain the same. Can we afford to be apathetic when it comes to the safety of children?:confused:
I agree in part. I agree that there are laws that in the past that have needed to be change and I am sure there are current laws that need to be changed. However, I think there are better ways if going about it. Poking our noses into other families lives and telling them what horrible choices they have made is not the right way of going about it. Not saying that this is what you are doing but I do think that is the way most people who are very against it do it. Ordinary every day parents do not make the laws and they do not change the laws. They are the wrong targets.
Child rearing ideas change from family to family, from house to house. What you might think is wrong, I might not. It doesn't make either person right.
I don't think children should be ear pierced with a gun but there are plenty of people who do it and that is up to them to decide. I personally have had a lot of reactions to my parenting choices. A friends mother who is an evangelical christian has told me I am mentally damaging my child, going to hell etc because I allow my child to be around homosexual people and trans gender people.
I am now way off track and babbling and have completely lost my point :confused:
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 12:00
A friends mother who is an evangelical christian has told me I am mentally damaging my child, going to hell etc because I allow my child to be around homosexual people and trans gender people.
ugh!:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
I would just like to join the debate. In Brisbane there is one doctor who performs this operation. At a cost of $500. It is suppose to be painless. However like with any operation there is a risk. I looked into getting my son circumcised because his father, grandfather and uncles all were. When my husband was born 1974 it was very popular to circumcise boys. However it no longer is. I did not circumcise my son because I did not want him to be the odd man out and I did not want put my healthy perfect son at any risk.
******:
i know u said there will always be new people joining the forum who also wish to discuss this topic.. but no matter how many times it gets talked about, people will always have their own opinion and generally offends someone.
it usually ends nastily.
we remind eachother to "play" nice. but its just one of those tough topics!
its not like we mean to offend or judge.
i understand you have a big opinion and want to change the law/world whatever. but you have to respect the rights and opinion of others. and understand the we each have our own business.
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 12:29
OH...ust wanted to clarify Chelle, that my "ugh" wasnt at you but at the lady you were talking about:):p
It is nobodys business.
I wont get into this because im becoming quite tired of having to explain myself as to why ive had my son done.
We never question a parent who doesnt circumcise so why should a parent who choose to for their reasons have to explain themselves when it is their choice to do whats right for their child.
Whether you like it or not there is a choice & parents who do do it are doing what they believe is right for often many various reasons whether you agree with that or not really doesnt matter as again it is none of your business nor is it your choice because again its the parents.
Sorry but to compare it to child abuse is very inflammatory & ridiculous.
But then i wonder whether you will be questioned about your reasoning for making comments & starting such a thread.
Ally, for people who dont believe it is anyone else business, you and your dp and have certainly been starting up alot of discussions about circumcision lately!! you cant have it both ways, if its nobody else's business, dont discuss it, otherwise expect others to share their views on it as well.
However, ******, I believe you comparisons to circumcision and child abuse are wrong and will offend many people, may I politely ask what you hope to get out of this?
Ana Gram
23-02-2006, 12:33
Don't worry Katie I understood :)
Lucky for me (and her), I found her statement hilarious.
I choose not to do it because I think its unnecessary.
And yes, I believe that what other people choose to do is not my concern or my business and I wouldn't push my belief that it is unnecessary on to anyone else.
Pippi Longstocking
23-02-2006, 12:47
It seems I need to clarify. I didn't say that circumcision is child abuse. I don't think when people choose to circumcise their child, they are deliberately trying to cause the child pain. I think it would be safe to say that all people who circumcise do so with good intention, which is entirely different to people who abuse their children.
The similarity is that both hurt children. That is the point I was trying to make. If someone hurts a child, whether well intended or not, is it our business?
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 12:53
Not when it is done as a private family decision out of love and good intention:) WHat about needles? They hurt....
I think you are drawing a long bow - children being hurt can happen in so many ways and again is not always our business. A woman I know witnessed a mother give her child a light smack on the bum in the shop after the child had acted very badly. A young woman walked up to the mother and said "I saw what you did,. I should report you". The woman I know went to the young woman and said " I saw what you did - how dare you judge a mother and threaten her until you have walked a mile in her shoes." The mother who was at the end of her tether was very greatful. The point? It was none of the young woman's business - a smack is not always child abuse.
I am also concerned that like several other new arrivals to this forum, your main focus is on circumcision. Saying that you are new and therefore can raise all the old arguments as you were not part of them before is not a great justification - the previous threads are all still on the board - just a matter of setting your default period at the bottom of the page to catch them.
Another reminder to all - keep it nice. Of course - no one is compelling ANY of you to respond in these threads - it is just a forum, nothing more, nothing less.
******, if you put it that way, then I guess, yes, if you believe that something is wrong, then you have a right to try and get things changed. you can do this by writing letters to people in power, and by sharing research etc, and why you believe it to be wrong, with others in forums such as these,as long as we remain mindful that parents who chose to have the child circumcised do it out of a belief that they are doing the best thing for their child, and some already feel bad about their choice as it is, so to continually bring it up, when there is stacks of info for people wanting to know the facts here already,whether you are new or not, isnt really beneficial to anyone.
oh and ditto to everything draught said :D
Pippi Longstocking
23-02-2006, 13:03
WHat about needles? They hurt....
Yes, they do. But there is evidence to suggest that immunisations do have many benefits, and I can understand why some parents choose to immunise. (Incidentally, I don't immunise as I believe that there is more evidence suggesting that immunisation can do more harm than good but that is a whole other debate altogether.) Most of the so called benefits of circumcision have been refuted, making it more of a cosmetic procedure than medical.
I think you are drawing a long bow - children being hurt can happen in so many ways and again is not always our business. A woman I know witnessed a mother give her child a light smack on the bum in the shop after the child had acted very badly.
I think you'll agree that "a light smack on the bum" is entirely different to amputating a foreskin, yes? Now had the woman have belted into her child and caused the same degree of pain and anguish that a circumcision would, would this have been the young woman's business?
I am also concerned that like several other new arrivals to this forum, your main focus is on circumcision.
I am not sure why this "concerns" you? This is where I happened to jump in - obviously I am passionate about the topic. I could roam around and make inane comments on other threads if it will make you feel more comfortable?:p :)
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 13:03
OK, I have a question:)
As I mentionde in one of the other many many circ threads, I am a Christian and dont believe that circumcision is necessary, however, if I was living over 2000 years ago (before Jesus brought the new covenant) I would have gotten my boys circumcised 8 days after their birth out of obedience to God. This, to me would have been the most important thing to consider as I am sure it is to those who are still Jews today. Is it not up to the family to decide, especally when it has to do with something as important (to them) as their salvation? I definately believe it is none of anyone elses business.
If someone was going to perform an unsafe backyard circumcision, I would think that would be different, but under medical supervision, its diffrerent.
I agree with the above poster, whe nare we going to stop judging others parenting choices?
I personally question the need for ANOTHER circ thread, it has been done to death on numerous other threads. You need to accept that this procedure is legal, and it is the parent's business and not anyone elses'. You can argue the pros and cons until you're blue in the face, but when it comes to the crunch, you simply do not have the power nor the right to tell other parents what to do.
:smiliedance: Congratulations,This was worded beautifully & "Oh so true !!!!!":yelclap:
the_queen
23-02-2006, 13:06
Does passive smoking count?? My sister has just found out she's pregnant, and her husband refuses to stop smoking inside the house. He claims "more people die from carbon monoxide poisoning from cars, than passive smoking" :banghead: Everyone in our family disagree's with this of course, but at the end of day it really is none of our business... isn't it? I feel sad for the baby but also I am angry at him for being such an idiot, and I feel pity for her for obviously not being able to stand up for herself and her baby!! But it's not illegal to smoke inside the house with a pregnant woman living there, so technically and legally it's nobody's business. But our mum has already said something, and if the topic comes up when I am present I will DEFINATELY be saying something.
I raise this off-topic issue because obviously everyone here will agree that he should NOT be smoking inside the house. There's documented evidence of how bad passive smoking is. But 20, 30, 50 years ago, there wasn't such evidence. So back then, it would have been a legitimate "none of your business" issue. It would have been the same kind of debate that we're now having about circumcision. Both sides of the argument would have been seen to have merit. But now, because there's irrefutable evidence about the dangers of smoking, we are "allowed" to "tell him what to do" (I can't think of a better way to express what I mean....;) )
What I'm saying is, it's no good just saying "I believe circumcision is wrong and it should be stopped" ; if things are to be changed there has to be irrefutable scientific evidence. And a change in the way society as a whole thinks. So instead of attacking parents who have already had the procedure done (because seriously, you can't un-do the circ... all you're doing is making the parents either feel guilty or angry) (and possibly I have been guilty of this in the past, for which I unreservedly apologise) If you feel strongly enough about making circumcision illegal then you need to be getting the scientific community to do real and un-baised studies on it, to determine once and for all whether there is any benefit to it or not.
And, just wanted to add a comment about "infections"... I think the community at large needs to be better educated about the way to care for intact penis's(Penii?:rolleyes: ). Robyn Barker said it best: "An intact penis requires the same amount of care as an elbow" (I'm paraphrasing I think)
(If I'm making no sense please feel free to ignore me :laughing: Placenta-brain may possibly have stopped me from expressing myself clearly....)
While some ppl disagree with me, I think a more valid comparison for circumcision is immunisation. Both procedures involve some risk for some benefit. Whether you choose to do either will depend on how you judge the risk against the benefit. Ppl have different ideas about how risky either procedure is and ppl certainly have different ideas about the benefits of each. No responsible parent chooses either procedure without weighing the risks and benefits.
I would not condemn someone for choosing not to immunise, even though I choose to. Likewise I do not condemn anyone for circumcising their son, even though I would not choose to. It is their decision.
Child abuse is illegal and so IS everyones' business. Immunisation is not legislated and circumcising is not illegal and so it is no-one else's business.
Cheers
Pippi Longstocking
23-02-2006, 13:09
Look, I am not here to judge, nor to anger people, nor to "make" them feel guilty. I would like to hope that calm rational logical debate could have the potential to raise the awareness of even just one other mum in order to save one little boy from an unnecessary and traumatic procedure.
It is a difficult topic to discuss without people getting angry. I am fully aware of that and am making every effort to be as tactful as I can. But at the end of the day, one has to ask oneself why people are feeling so angry and guilty? If I were 100% sure that I had done the right thing by my child, an anonymous person on an internet forum certainly couldn't make me feel angry or guilty about my choice.
Hi Queenie
Just read your post and I have to say that I think it is none of your families business. You can share your opinions and give them information, but that's as far as you can go.
But it is your sister's business, it's her child. If she felt strongly enough about it - she could leave him. It is a parenting decision that they both have to come to, like will they smack or not. In an ideal world you talk about it before you have kids, but most of us have to lay the rules as we go along :rolleyes: . She and her partner will decide what is acceptable for their child.
Pippi Longstocking
23-02-2006, 13:17
The_queen, I absolutely agree with you. Things change because awareness is raised, and consequently, society evolves. Things that were acceptable previously ( I already mentioned the burning of witches etc but your smoking analogy is slightly more up-to-date :o ) are no longer tolerated. Where better to raise awareness than a forum full of pregnant mothers?
Yep, I really ought to be more proactive and start lobbying for real change, which I fully intend to do. Apathy gets us nowhere :o .
Baby needs attention, I'll getback to this in a bit.
Ana Gram
23-02-2006, 13:23
Ok, so lets talk about it in a purely cosmetic procedure way without bringing any other reason into it. The other legal comparable thing is ear piercing (yes I can all hear you collectively groan! :p ). Noone jumps up and down about people choosing to pierce their childs ears and that is purely cosmetic. I have never heard an arguement stating any kind of benefit for doing it.
It is a difficult topic to talk about. And your agenda is pretty clear. You said you want to save little boys from what you see to be an unnecessary and traumatic procedure. That is your opinion and your choice for not doing it to your child. It isn't your choice to decide what happens to a penis that isn't under your legal custody.
People get as angry about many other choices they make as parents that people don't agree with and question, not just this one. I don't actually think guilt has much to do with it at all.
Everyone has a choice to make in the raising of their children. On numerous topics. I chose to circ my sons, that was our family's choice.
I think it's a matter of respecting other people. It doesn't matter whether it's to circ or not or some thing else if someone doesn't agree with how you raise your child do you respect them enough to say 'Well it's not what I would do, but if you believe it's the best thing for your child then so be it.'
JMO, these threads always go the same way though...
Ana Gram
23-02-2006, 13:34
JMO, these threads always go the same way though...
ain't that the truth!
Yup I tend to try and stay away from them for that reason...
melfunction
23-02-2006, 13:42
I am over it.....completely over how some new members go straight for the circ threads......:confused: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Is nobody going to mention the fact that there is a picture of a child IN A DRYER???
LOL. Just kidding, sorry.
we only put him there when he's really bad;)
Ana Gram
23-02-2006, 13:45
quick someone call DOCS :rolleyes: ;)
He's a terror for getting into things or on things, he's a little climber... I can't take my eyes off him for 2 seconds or he's into something....
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 13:46
LOL thats funny!
I thin it is my business Sarah that you cant just dry your child with a towel like everyonew else:p ;) :eek:
Damn it... I was just trying to find the easier way:p ;)
How are you Katie???
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 13:49
hehehe I am good thanks, and you? Talking to you reminds me that I need to call Renae and thank her for the lovely birthday present she sent me over a week ago:o
Ana Gram
23-02-2006, 13:52
Oh and on the ear piercing subject, each to their own. My daughter was not allowed till she was five and she wanted them. Plus by then she nagged me to death about them, so I figured she was aware of her decision.
Your daughter, your choice, just as your son your choice. Personally, as I have gotten into huge wars with employers over piercings, I won't be letting my daughter get them done until 18. Mainly because I won't allow her to be pierced with a gun but boy am I setting myself up for some intense nagging and whining!!
Exhausted! I just had a couple of bubhub girls over (shazbutt and jasminesmum) and another girl from town here too. The boys have both crashed out and I could use a sleep too... though now I'm here....
Happy birthday to you!!! When is you're B'day?? :bday:
lukaelmo
23-02-2006, 13:53
Well?
Is someone going to go and get that poor child out of there?:D
Teehee, I can't wait 'till the dude can do cute things like get into our dryer :eek: .
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 13:53
LOL thanks, it was a couple of weeks ago actually.....
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 13:54
I have the worst heartburn today......:rolleyes: Oops, off topic sorry:o I thought this was the back fence:ecomcity:
I think we've kinda changed the mood of this thread... though they usually go down hill, so maybe it's a good thing:smiliedance:
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 13:56
hehehe I was thinking the same thing.....:yelclap:
:laughing: Ali he's great value now, we just crack up laughing with what he and his older brother get up to. We were getting ready to go for a walk last night with our dogs and Nat let go of one of the leads and was running around after Patch saying 'Oh my goodness, oh my goodness!!' over and over again. Very cute!!
Sarie, I just read your post and where you had 'Nat' written, I was thinking of PJ so in my mind PJ was running around after the puppy and I was sitting here thinking ":eek: WTF? He's running around already??" :D Then I twigged it was Nat. :rolleyes:
You know what Cas, PJ is running!!!!
lukaelmo
23-02-2006, 14:28
:laughing: Ali he's great value now, we just crack up laughing with what he and his older brother get up to. We were getting ready to go for a walk last night with our dogs and Nat let go of one of the leads and was running around after Patch saying 'Oh my goodness, oh my goodness!!' over and over again. Very cute!!
We have a dog too and we are forever saying, "Morrie, No!". I think we have a pretty good guess what Luka's first words will be :D
Pippi Longstocking
23-02-2006, 14:29
*coughs politely* Sorry to butt in, I just had another comment on the topic :p . I'll juz say it quickly and you can get backk to nattering over the back fence :D .
I agree - to a certain extent - about the ear piercing. When my now 6 yo daughter was 3 months old, I decided to get her ears pierced. I still haven't forgiven myself for it. I believe it was th ewrong thing to do. She screamed, looked very shocked and cried for ages. It was truly awful and to this day, I wish I had've just left her alone - she was already perfect. I made a mistake - I have no shame admitting it. I wish I had've taken the time to educate myself before deciding to go ahead and get her ears pierced. That being said, I do believe that a large slice the entire way around a penis is a lot more severe than tiny pin pricks to their ear lobes. Circumcision is a far more invasive procedure. Earings can be taken out and the little holes are barely visible - the foreskin will never grow back.
Anyhoo, as you were people, sorry to interrupt :o :)
Sorry for taking over your thread ******, feel free to join us:D
Well anyway, I am obsessed with little boys at the moment and that cheeky pic is just making me worse. I watch them like a hawk. There's something wrong with me I am sure. I just adore them. This is completely new.
We find out what bubby is in two weeks and I know I am not supposed to mind but I really want my own little cheeky bloke. If she's a girl I will love her to bits, but for some reason I think I am meant to be the mother of a son.
This has just occured since the pregnancy started. If you had asked me before I would have adamantly stated I have always wanted a little girl.
Must be hormones. Or maybe its that my DP is such a blokey bloke that I envisage a little version of him, how adorable.
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 14:44
Wow! So it will be ineteresting to see what you end up having!:)
Ana Gram
23-02-2006, 14:45
tiny pin pricks to their ear lobes.
I am going to have to disagree with you on that one. It is so much more than a tiny pin prick. Using a gun to pierce anything, it jamming a blunt piece of metal through skin at a high speed.
I knew from the moment I knew I was pregnant with Nat that I was having a boy. But with PJ I had no idea. Even though we saw his 'bits' on the scan, I still wasn't 100% sure he was a boy till he came out.
We choose to circum both boys and I asked them if they remembered oh and guess what they said. " What are you talking about mum" ( sorry should add that only one son can talk). He doesnt remember it and he wasnt in any pain. Trust me I am his mother and I would have known at them time if he was in pain. I also immunise my children, I am also totally against not immunizing children as I have seen the other side of it and little babies who turn blue with whooping cough is not pretty. I dont sit there at parent groups or family get togethers and force my opinions onto other people nor do i expect them to me. Its just getting riduculous (spel).
lol, when my brother was about 2 he was circumcised for medical reasons. I cant remember how it came up but we were discussing cirumcision one day when he was about 12 and mum mentioned how he had been done, he looked horrified and said 'im circumcised??!!!' :D :p
Sarie, get over to the bad mothers thread, look at that poor child in the dryer, you are a bad, bad mummy :p :p
I am going to have to disagree with you on that one. It is so much more than a tiny pin prick. Using a gun to pierce anything, it jamming a blunt piece of metal through skin at a high speed.
i disagree as well, and often with babies they get one person on each side with the guns and do it at the same time :(
I will go straight there E!!!:D
Ffrenchknickers
23-02-2006, 14:48
he looked horrified and said 'im circumcised??!!!'
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
Um... there seems to be two conversations going on here.. so in relation to the latest one... Sarie :eek: about the running thing! Far out, they grow up fast!
And back to the circumcision thing - actually I think the comment I was going to make is more about child abuse so maybe I'm off topic but this just occurred to me while I was reading other people's comments so I'll throw it in anyway and you can all ignore me if you wish.. I certainly won't be offended. :D
There seems to be a consensus here that child abuse becomes child abuse when there is a malicious intent. At least, that appears to be the reason people are offended by circumcision being compared to child abuse. But I've worked in the area of child protection and I know that most of the people we investigated for child abuse and neglect didn't think they were doing anything wrong. In fact, they believed they were simply disciplining their children and that it was "no-one elses business"!
So while I also would not ever accuse a parent of child abuse for circumcising their child, I do wonder (philosophically) if that is only because as a society we are accustomed to the circumcision of males. In other societies, things are done that are cultural which we would find abhorrent, so is it not possible that there might come a time in the future when circumcision is not a socially acceptable practice and we are equally appalled by it?
I hope it's clear that I'm not stating personal opinions about parents who choose to circumcise but just thinking more philosophically about what we consider to be 'normal' and 'acceptable' in our society and how that taints our perception of them. Because the reality is, no matter how you look at it, we are talking about surgery on a child's genitals for largely cosmetic reasons. :rolleyes:
ok.. that's my 2c.. as you were. :p
Cos he's going to be one in under a month, I cannot believe how quickly that time has gone!!
the_queen
23-02-2006, 16:08
I think Cosmic mentioned the words "cosmetic reasons" because some of the reasons put forward by parents who have circ'd their sons are along the lines of "His dad is circ'd" or "his brothers/cousins are circ'd" or "we didn't want him to be the odd one out" . And that line of reasoning is pretty lame IMO - if my son's nose doesn't look my my husbands, we won't be booking him in for rhinoplasty (in fact I'll be singing in the street - DH has quite a bulbous shnoz:rolleyes: )
I think even the most ardent intactivists among us will agree that if a circumcision is medically warranted then we do not disagree with that.
Hi Mrs Casper, many of us have stated that we do not have a problem with circumcision performed for medical reasons, but the vast majority of routine circumcisions are done because daddy has it done (cosmetic reasons) or a lack of understanding about rates of infections, how to care for an uncircumcised penis etc. :)
when it comes to the crunch, you simply do not have the power nor the right to tell other parents what to do.
Agreed. .
a lack of understanding about rates of infections, how to care for an uncircumcised penis etc. :)
Just as a side note and slightly off topic, it's generally the anti-circumcision people who have the lack of understanding about infection rates. People who choose to circumcise their children do so for many reasons one of which can be that circumcision may be of benefit, this isn't ignorant or a lack of understanding.
From 1983-1995 the Australian College of Paediatrics (which has now been absorbed into the Australasian Association of Paediatric Surgeons) was virulently and publicly against rountine circumcision to the point that they expressed concern that neonatal circumcision may violate human rights. However, after numerous research reports came to light on both sides of the fence and AAPS's own research they now maintain a neutral position stating parents should be educated on the benefits & risks of circumcision and make an informed decision & that (Press release Dec 1996) "At the present time it would be wrong either to claim that there are definite health benefits or to deny that they exist."
So in reality choosing to, or not to circumcise has ample medical backing and I think it's wrong to say someone who chooses one side or the other has a lack of understanding about infection rates when the medical complex has no cement position on the issue.
Royal Australasian College of Physicians (RACP):
http://www.racp.edu.au/hpu/paed/circumcision/
After extensive review of the literature the RACP reaffirms that there is no medical indication for routine neonatal circumcision. .........
In recent years there has been evidence of possible health benefits from routine male circumcision. The most important conditions where some benefit may result from circumcision are urinary tract infections, HIV and later cancer of the penis.
*Urinary tract infections affect 1%-2% of boys, and may be about 5 times less frequent in circumcised boys, whilst circumcision has a complication rate of 1% to 5%. On current evidence routine neonatal circumcision cannot be supported as a public health measure on this basis.
*Whilst there is some evidence, particularly from sub-Saharan Africa, that male circumcision reduces the risk of acquisition of HIV, evidence is conflicting and would not justify an argument in favour of universal neonatal circumcision in countries with a low prevalence of HIV.
*Penile cancer is a rare disease with an incidence of around 1 per 100,000 in developed countries. Even though the evidence suggests neonatal circumcision may reduce the risk 10-fold, the rarity of the condition and its other recognised predispositions are such that universal circumcision is not justified on these grounds alone.
American Medical Association (I believe circ rates in the US are much higher than Oz, but still: )
Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision.
I disagree, I think horror stories of infections etc, sway people into getting it done, and many people also arent arent aware that the majority of infections are actually caused by parents pulling back and cleaning the foreskin in children to young and to often. Of course my statement was a bit of a generalisation, but I think the alot of parents who initially chose to circ would change their minds if explained the true facts (not all, i know their are some, like yourself, that still chose to do it anyway, and that is your right :ecomcity: :ecomcity: the blahs are aimed at me, not you)
Besides, you yourself just said that the anti circs are generally the ones misinformed, but then at the bottom of your post tell me off for doing the same thing? tsk tsk baz, double standards *shakes head sadly* :p
American Medical Association (I believe circ rates in the US are much higher than Oz, but still:
Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision.
Yup, the Australia Medical Association & the Bristish Medical Association have taken the same neutral position moving from their previous anti-circumcision position, all three now advise doctors to give ample information to parents. I think the AMA also encourages doctors to attempt to discourage parents also, whilst highlighting the neutral position of the AMA/medical research thus far.
It's a fair cry from the days when circumcision was praised as the new God, then later priased as the new Satan, now it's just there as an option for those who choose to take it.
I disagree, I think horror stories of infections etc, sway people into getting it done, and many people also arent arent aware that the majority of infections are actually caused by parents pulling back and cleaning the foreskin in children to young and to often.
Anyone who tells horror stories is irresponsible. Planes are safer than cars but people spread horror stories of plane crashes - these people are equally as irresponsible.
Besides, you yourself just said that the anti circs are generally the ones misinformed, but then at the bottom of your post tell me off for doing the same thing? tsk tsk baz, double standards *shakes head sadly* :p
If you can have a double standard then so can I.
I won't be replying anymore on this line of discussion with you, cosmic has provided further research on the neutrality of the American Medical Association above. You're welcome to PM me to continue it however.
no, no need, just wanted to clarify. ;)
Pippi Longstocking
23-02-2006, 20:00
So in reality choosing to, or not to circumcise has ample medical backing
I disagree. I have heavily researched this topic and have found that most "backing" is based on unreliable data and refuted claims. Medical grounds for circumcision include hypospadius, which is "A developmental anomaly of the urethra in which a part of the urethral canal is open on the undersurface of the penis or on the perineum. " or recurrent infections. Routine circumcision as a preventative measure is frowned upon by most medical practitioners. To prove my point, why not ring around your town and see how many GPs will perform the procedure....?:rolleyes:
Ok
Since we have not had any new contributions for a while now, lets close it down to avoid hitting the replay button on the argument. Thanks to every one who gave their opinions and experiences, your contribution is very welcome.
Cheers
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