View Full Version : What's so wrong with unions!!!!
I don't understand why a lot of people hate unions, I have never had a problem with them,they protect our working conditions, unlike the conservative Liberals who are willing to take away things like; overtime/sick leave/penalty rates/shift rates, and so on. My dear dad who has passed on was a union Boss and everyone loved him he wasn't a so called bully like the Liberals would have us believe, he was a gentle man who always fought hard for the workers.There is nothing wrong with unions I say.
SassyMummy
15-10-2007, 11:39
I also wonder what the big deal is too... but I'm only 21, so I haven't felt affected by anything that happened in the past, so maybe I'm just not jaded enough to understand it?
I wonder if it's because strikes aren't very conductive for anyone BUT the people striking. In the past several years... there haven't (in my knowledge) been that many strikes... but I remember being little and they'd ALWAYS talk about it on TV... either strikes or the threat of.
I always ask myself the same question - I guess more so since I work for a union peak body.
Same here. I am 30 and have been part of a union once. it was very much needed.
forbetoel
15-10-2007, 11:56
Nothing is wrong with them, many thousands of workers are now working under better pay and working conditions because of them. Yes there will always be a bad sory, but there are also bad stories about bosses too. On the whole unions are their to represent the worker and their rights, often in the lowest paid, unskilled workplaces where workers really need a voice.
SilverStarfish
15-10-2007, 12:00
For me, my union was a godsend when a rather unpleasant boss of mine tried to pin something on me that was not my fault. With the help of the union she was made to retract the written warning she'd issued - she never would have listened to me if I didn't have the union backing me.
Im sure most are great- but i can tell you some are not.
Same as everything- good and bad stories.
I have a few not so nice stories about Union delegates and bosses-bullying, scare tactics, rocks through loungeroom windows etc etc- im sure they are not all like that though.
Oh and as for the eradication of sick leave, overtime/ penalty rates etc- you really need to read up on this. Its not as bad as some who have you believe. In fact, alot of workers are better off.
Im sure most are great- but i can tell you some are not.
Same as everything- good and bad stories.
I have a few not so nice stories about Union delegates and bosses-bullying, scare tactics, rocks through loungeroom windows etc etc- im sure they are not all like that though.
Oh and as for the eradication of sick leave, overtime/ penalty rates etc- you really need to read up on this. Its not as bad as some who have you believe. In fact, alot of workers are better off.
I don't need to read up on it Roopee, my husband has experienced his overtime been changed to a different rate, and also I know of people who have been sacked for being too old and turning down shifts because of family being sick, I have never experienced the bullying tactics so I personally don't know what happens there.
As i said then- good and bad stories. We all have them.
My husband gets so ropeable when unions are mentioned!!
Just to mention one case, A site my husband was working on was black banned by the union my husband had to finish of a job he had a deadline he had nothing to do with the union yet they prevented him from entering the premises , therefore it cost him money he had to pay a days wages to his apprentices where they did not do a days work, it went on for a week!
There are so many bad behind the scenes union stories that would make you wonder what they are really truly about.
For example another of my DH's job was a major project for a well known cinema company, one day he was working on the roof top of one of the complexes in the city (melbourne) it started spit a little but nothing horrendous just a little spit of rain (not even rain) Well all the union members downed tools - fair enough. but they refused to go back on the job for a fortnight, they used the rain excuse something about providing them shelter, but that was a bunch of bollocks cause the union official for that site actually wanted free movie passes for a year and for his workers too, so as soon as they were given their free movie passes they worked whether it rained or not, The union official bragged to my husband about it, then my hubby spoke to the Cinema project manager and said you have no idea what these guys do, they apparently do this all the time.
Shame on them:shame:.
i am sure they have done some good in the past but they're are some shocking stories ohhh and i have got more.
They have caused a lot of heartaches to businesses small and large, some cases they are justified in doing so and some not.
Most business owners have atleast a couple of bad union stories.
IMO they can be big bad bullies:yes:
It depends on the union, too.....the ones that you hear the bad stories about are always the same ones.
You don't hear bad stories about the unions who fight for the wages of childcare workers, or underpaid imported kitchen staff, or about the ones who stand up for the workers who get discriminated against because they are pregnant (yes, it does happen and happens a lot) or because their kids are sick (again, you'd be surprised how often this happens!).
our little treasures
15-10-2007, 14:54
The union at my old job really helped me with a lot of issues.
1. Got a fulltime job within 3 weeks they cut it back and I was then part time. I had left my full time job at the museum and now was left with a part time job:mad:
2. Morning sickness well actual I suffered Hypermesis my boss laughed in my face when I told him I didn't know when I would be back as I had m/s! He was a pr**k!
3. Lots of over time problems
4. Hassles over voluntary uniform
5. Problem with sexual harrassment that the manager said "oh he is old school and doesn't know better":confused:
The list goes on
I then became a union delegate and loved every minute of it! I was very sad leaving work for maternity but only because of my delegate work.
You wouldn't believe the cr@p they would get away with if it wasn't for the union.
So I really don't know what the big deal is!!
I grew up in an anti-union family 'cos they can use some strong-arm tactics on employers - my Dad's a farmer and the Shearer's union could be a bit difficult to deal with way back in the past. It's been pretty good for the last twenty years though, as far as I know.
As a teacher, though, there've been some strong-arm tactics tried by the Dept. of Education and the NSW Govt. about our pay and conditions and I had a boss at one stage who tried to force me to accept conditions which were extremely unfair which was why I joined the union.
I don't deny that they have done a lot of good and continue too but their are some unions who are no longer looking after a justifiable cause they cause alot of problems to small businesses which is a double whamy if they only realised that some of these small business may have to lay of workers because of their bullying tactics, and i thought they were looking out for the workers:confused:.
The unions need to be cleaned up and have better image eitherwise people will start labelling them all the same.
There are good unions and bad unions, good bosses and bad bosses.
I liked being a member of a union - I never was asked to go on strike - but I knew if anything went wrong with my employer and myself, I'd have someone to help me out. I never needed any help, but it was nice to know there were people I could turn to if I ever needed them.
Also there were good benefits like the union shopper - they find you things at the best price; and they did training for all sorts of things - I remember going to one about public speaking - it really helped me and it was free, and I did it on one of my days off.
I think it's silly to get rid of unions because some are bad - surely it would be better to find a way to make bad unions responsive and responsible - being nasty or finding petty reasons to go out on strike - that helps no-one.
We owe a great debt to unions - without them we wouldn't have had such great working conditions for so long - I'm worried that Work Choices, even with the new fairness test really doesn't do enough to even the power balance between employer and employee.
Good employers will always do the right thing by their workers, it's always the bad employers that try to exploit their workforce, that happened before Workchoices - I know because I've been dudded by a couple of employers while in a non-union workforce and there was no-one to help me - the government bodies weren't interested in helping out little people like me. But I think unscrupulous employers would be having a field day since the new IR laws came in - workers now have fewer rights and protections.
So I really don't know what the big deal is!!
The big deal is when you are sitting in your lounge room, children on the floor in front of you, watching TV and a brick comes hurtling in through the window, spraying shattered glass about everywhere. While you are trying to see if any of your children are hurt, they are throwing fireworks around in your front yard. Scaring the kids and parents alike.
Thats what the big deal is.
Why is a union throwing bricks through your window?
The big deal is when you are sitting in your lounge room, children on the floor in front of you, watching TV and a brick comes hurtling in through the window, spraying shattered glass about everywhere. While you are trying to see if any of your children are hurt, they are throwing fireworks around in your front yard. Scaring the kids and parents alike.
Thats what the big deal is.
This does not surprise me i have heard of this before and that is why i state that some are BIG BULLIES.
Why is a union throwing bricks through your window?
Not through my window at all. Through a work colleague of my husbands.
Why?
Because he didnt agree with the reason to strike and voiced his concern.
My union is the Australian Nurses Federation (ANF) and they are fab. They don't resort to bullying or harrassment and as far as I'm concerned, they always have the nurses and patients best interest in mind.
For the record, Victorian nurses are having a stop-work meeting tomorrow to try to protect their working and pay conditions.
Support our nurses... because when you're laying sick in a hospital bed feeling like cr@p... they're the ones supporting you.
As an economist, I can say that unions are typcially 'bad' for economies. The world's most highly-unionised economies (such as parts of Europe) are some of the most rigid and slowest growing economies in the developed world. There is plenty of research to show that the higher the rate of unionisation, the slower the pace of productivity and generally higher unemployment, while lower unionisation lets the market forces of supply and demand occur unhindered, leading to more efficient outcomes and generally higher wages in the long run, despite what many claim. There will always be winners and losers with the reduction of union power, particularly unskilled workers, but an economy as a whole is almost always better off without them. Basic rights of course need to be protected.
My union is the Australian Nurses Federation (ANF) and they are fab. They don't resort to bullying or harrassment and as far as I'm concerned, they always have the nurses and patients best interest in mind.
For the record, Victorian nurses are having a stop-work meeting tomorrow to try to protect their working and pay conditions.
Support our nurses... because when you're laying sick in a hospital bed feeling like cr@p... they're the ones supporting you.
:yelclap: :yelclap: :yelclap: :yelclap: I support our nurses:yelclap: :yelclap:
Not through my window at all. Through a work colleague of my husbands.
Why?
Because he didnt agree with the reason to strike and voiced his concern.
How can we be expected to believe a third hand account of 'union thuggery'? The old 'friend of a friend' is not really a reliable source.
Those sorts of tactics are also history, and no union would engage in them now.
Unions, their tactics and campaigns and the way they conduct themselves and their business have seen great changes in the past decade, and the past 5 years in particular (so before the last Federal election and Workchoices and the Cole Royal Commission into the Building & construction Industry). As someone who gets to see how things work "on the inside", I have seen how the way unions "work" change dramatically.
Don't just assume that the thuggery and bullyboy tactics that are part of unionism's history in Australia are still used today, because you would be mistaken. The face of Unions and Unionism has changed - mostly for the better - and it would be nice if people in general would take their blinkers off long enough to see that.
forbetoel
15-10-2007, 19:20
Don't just assume that the thuggery and bullyboy tactics that are part of unionism's history in Australia are still used today, because you would be mistaken. The face of Unions and Unionism has changed - mostly for the better - and it would be nice if people in general would take their blinkers off long enough to see that.
:yes: I used to have a boss when I was only 18 who used to swear and throw pens and boxes at me, I would leave each day in tears. I ended up leaving, but if I had known what I do now, I would have joined my union (my boss didn't tell me about the union) and would then have had help. For every story of some bully union boss, there is a bully business owner.
Unions on the whole are professional hard working men and women, who now work with management to negotiate the best terms and conditions for their workers :yes: And most business owners are happy to have happy staff working for them, it is a two way street.
We have had first hand experience of Unions being big bad bullies. Indirectly they have caused al ot of money wasted and even though you are not part of the union you can not enter a site they have blacklisted and they don't care if it hurts your business. The account i mentioned about 1 page behind actually happened a month ago, and it is a very common practice.
I am not saying they are all bad as i was a member of the ANF Australia Nursing Federation, they do alot of good.
Just alot of Tradie Unions are absoloutely shocking.
Candyn - I am surprised that that incident occurred - especially seeing as I get the feeling that your DH is in construction. Those kind of things were made illegal with the Cole Royal Inquiry about 3 years ago, and unions can be fined very heavily for that kind of practice.
charlen49
15-10-2007, 20:56
Nothing is wrong with them, many thousands of workers are now working under better pay and working conditions because of them. Yes there will always be a bad sory, but there are also bad stories about bosses too. On the whole unions are their to represent the worker and their rights, often in the lowest paid, unskilled workplaces where workers really need a voice.here here..when i was working i was a fully paid union member..i fully support them!:thumbsup:
charlen49
15-10-2007, 21:02
As i said then- good and bad stories. We all have them.:yes:
I
As a teacher, though, there've been some strong-arm tactics tried by the Dept. of Education and the NSW Govt. about our pay and conditions and I had a boss at one stage who tried to force me to accept conditions which were extremely unfair which was why I joined the union.
same here..you need someone to help lookout for you interests..thats their job..we dont always know or have the time to know whats best!
How can we be expected to believe a third hand account of 'union thuggery'? The old 'friend of a friend' is not really a reliable source.
Excuse me?
This man and his family live in the next street from us! Its kinda hard to miss the [police sirens and then my DH has to go to work the next day and hear all about it "first hand" thank you very much.
His wife is a friend of mine whose children go to school with my kids!
It happened 10 months ago- it was not a "back in those days" incident.
Those sorts of tactics are also history, and no union would engage in them now.
Unions, their tactics and campaigns and the way they conduct themselves and their business have seen great changes in the past decade, and the past 5 years in particular (so before the last Federal election and Workchoices and the Cole Royal Commission into the Building & construction Industry). As someone who gets to see how things work "on the inside", I have seen how the way unions "work" change dramatically.
Don't just assume that the thuggery and bullyboy tactics that are part of unionism's history in Australia are still used today, because you would be mistaken. The face of Unions and Unionism has changed - mostly for the better - and it would be nice if people in general would take their blinkers off long enough to see that.
Umm sorry? But the incident i was refering too happened 10 months ago.
I wasnt referring to all unions- im not that silly-i know there are some great ones but please dont be mistaken in thinking that there are no bullies and thugs anymore. There are.
Excuse me?
This man and his family live in the next street from us! Its kinda hard to miss the [police sirens and then my DH has to go to work the next day and hear all about it "first hand" thank you very much.
His wife is a friend of mine whose children go to school with my kids!
It happened 10 months ago- it was not a "back in those days" incident.
Your husband heard it first hand (from the source), who told you (so you heard it second hand), and now you're telling us, which makes it a third hand account - yes?
canberramomma
15-10-2007, 21:24
I reckon that unions ROCK!!
They haven't always been able to help, but they do try to make sure you get a fair go.
I've been a union member whenever I have been in paid employment. I was considering trying to start up a non-paid working class union. Dues payable by making sure that striking workers and their families have food and child minding! What do you think?
Oh please! His wife told me about it at school so your actually hearing about it second hand.
The way your talking you'd think i was lying! How rude.
SalTheGal
15-10-2007, 21:37
My husband gets so ropeable when unions are mentioned!!
Just to mention one case, A site my husband was working on was black banned by the union my husband had to finish of a job he had a deadline he had nothing to do with the union yet they prevented him from entering the premises , therefore it cost him money he had to pay a days wages to his apprentices where they did not do a days work, it went on for a week!
There are so many bad behind the scenes union stories that would make you wonder what they are really truly about.
For example another of my DH's job was a major project for a well known cinema company, one day he was working on the roof top of one of the complexes in the city (melbourne) it started spit a little but nothing horrendous just a little spit of rain (not even rain) Well all the union members downed tools - fair enough. but they refused to go back on the job for a fortnight, they used the rain excuse something about providing them shelter, but that was a bunch of bollocks cause the union official for that site actually wanted free movie passes for a year and for his workers too, so as soon as they were given their free movie passes they worked whether it rained or not, The union official bragged to my husband about it, then my hubby spoke to the Cinema project manager and said you have no idea what these guys do, they apparently do this all the time.
Shame on them:shame:.
i am sure they have done some good in the past but they're are some shocking stories ohhh and i have got more.
They have caused a lot of heartaches to businesses small and large, some cases they are justified in doing so and some not.
Most business owners have atleast a couple of bad union stories.
IMO they can be big bad bullies:yes:
:yes: :yes: :yes: Ah yes this all sounds very very familiar.
My husband works in commercial construction too and could sit all day and tell you union tales of a similar kind. Almost every day at one job he would come home with another incredible story of how the union boss in the area had halted work for some reason or another the guy had seemingly taken a disliking to DH (or thought as it was his first commercial job he could take him for a ride) and was on site every day nitpicking things that shouldn't have been issues. :mad: And this not so long ago either.
Oh please! His wife told me about it at school so your actually hearing about it second hand.
The way your talking you'd think i was lying! How rude.
Chill out, all I was saying is that third (or second, whatever) hand accounts of this kind of union funny business are quite common -but modern unions tend not to engage in the kind of low brow thuggery that is often portrayed in Government scare campaigns.
How can we be expected to believe a third hand account of 'union thuggery'? The old 'friend of a friend' is not really a reliable source.
So you dont agree that this above statement by you is suggesting im lying? Or that its untrue?
I think your being rude and i no longer will enter into this with you.
So you dont agree that this above statement by you is suggesting im lying? Or that its untrue?
I think your being rude and i no longer will enter into this with you.
I haven't accused you of lying - you've jumped to the wrong conclusion. When stories are passed along they often get misheard, told incorrectly or even embellished. That is why 2nd and 3rd hand accounts aren't very reliable.
jenkinsdakota
16-10-2007, 00:40
Usually workers compete with each other for jobs in the dog-eat-dog world and this competition would lead to hard work.
However, unions unify all workers and make them act as one, using strikes as threats to employers, and this means workers don't compete but sit back. Instead of employers exploiting the workers, workers exploit the employees.
But Liberal is no different. The Liberals give special treatment to big business and farmers. Farmers can fail and get billions of dollars of cash thrown at them. So they have no incentive to work hard. This lack of competition among domestic farmers and lack of competition from foreign farmers through high agricultural tariffs means that farmers sit back, act as one to raise food prices, and exploit the consumer.
Labor and Liberal are both special interest parties with Labor serving the unions and Liberal serving business. Neither of them care about principle. If you want a true and pure free market party, you need to look at the LDP.
I don't understand why a lot of people hate unions, I have never had a problem with them,they protect our working conditions, unlike the conservative Liberals who are willing to take away things like; overtime/sick leave/penalty rates/shift rates, and so on. My dear dad who has passed on was a union Boss and everyone loved him he wasn't a so called bully like the Liberals would have us believe, he was a gentle man who always fought hard for the workers.There is nothing wrong with unions I say.
Not saying all unions are bad or not trying to have the workers' best interests at heart, however....
The section I have highlighted is wrong (for the union I am speaking of). When I was working as a shop assistant (between 20 and 10years ago - so before the current Liberal government), overtime rates were cut, sick leave was traded, penalties were cut, (rates for working later than a certain time, rates for Sundays, you had to work longer to get overtime etc) for the sake of an extra 5c an hour - I never got a say in this. At the end of the day - there was nothing else to trade. Oh and I enjoyed being on a casual contract, however, I was told I had to cease being on the casual contract i was on and take a part time contract (against my wishes) at lesser pay.
Wake up people, the above is not to do with workchoices!!!! These cuts definitely happened with unions negotiating for the changes.
rynosmum
16-10-2007, 06:34
Wake up people, the above is not to do with workchoices!!!! These cuts definitely happened with unions negotiating for the changes.
I was the same - many years ago having to work each Christmas Eve and Christmas day or face the sack - no workchoices there either.:rolleyes:
Unions differ and they are supposedly there to help the workers. The problem is that they whilst they support the good workers, they also support the slack ones, the ones who know the system and know that they cannot be 'fired' or redeployed else they will report to the unions. I have seen many a government department being forced to spend more money than they need to on outdated processes simply because the Unions won't allow them to move to a more cost effective model as it would risk some jobs of existing union workers.
You want to know why even with all of the extra money going to Health and Education, we often don't see a massive improvement? In many cases, their hands are tied due to union pressures....and Odessa, I know this first hand as I've been in the meetings:yes:
Rainbowbrite
16-10-2007, 07:42
I wish DH's work allowed them to join/form a union. Yes I know they can't stop them, but they do make life very difficult for anyone who does. Maybe they would have stopped my husbands hours changing when the majority wanted them left as is, they wouldn't have lost their breaks etc.
I've always been a union member :yes:
Candyn - I am surprised that that incident occurred - especially seeing as I get the feeling that your DH is in construction. Those kind of things were made illegal with the Cole Royal Inquiry about 3 years ago, and unions can be fined very heavily for that kind of practice.
They happen on a daily basis.
Dirty money under the table tactics!!
Like SaltheGIrl - ihave had nothing but bad experiences come out of my Husbands mouth about unions, and it seems to be the trade unions!!!
I have got heaps more stories to share!!!
To deny that they happen is like turning a blind eye to it, ask anyone in the trade business and they will tell you some shocking stories i can guarantee it.:yes:
reAllytee
16-10-2007, 09:22
My father had issues with the trade unions, my sisters fiance has had trouble with the construction & transport unions & i personally have had dramas with retail/shop assistants union.
None of the above helped any of us out when it was needed infact i even got laughed at then hung up on when calling for help.
I dont like them & i dont trust them.
Angelmist♥
16-10-2007, 09:51
My Dad is heavily into the unions. (Ha ha you wouldn't think it hey;))He even designed the railway unions logo's.Even with him brainwashing us for years that unions are the best thing since sliced bread, my brother and I still remember the shocking things the union did for the sake of 'better work places':rolleyes:.
There were families of non-union members bailed up in shopping centres being called horrid names. There was assaults of men wanting to work (maybe so they could pay their mortgages:rolleyes:)in front of unionist's children. I still remember one of the union guys turning to me (at the ripe old age of 8) and saying "See, that's what happens when you turn your back on your mates".:mad: some mates!
Then there was strikes that would last a fortnight because someone decided they wanted a meal allowance on top of the huge pay rise they had just received. A fortnight isn't too bad until you take into account the amount of people who couldn't afford to feed their kids, yet couldn't work or they'd be bashed.
I'm sure unions have had their place, I've never seen one though.
forbetoel
16-10-2007, 10:38
Unions do a lot of good, not only do they help get workers better pay and conditions, they also do massive amounts of charity work, which not many people know about, it is done without needing that recognition..... there will always be bad union stories, just like there are bad working stories, people being bullied by thier own boss at work, it goes both ways, but many thousands of people are now being paid a fairs day's pay, for a fair days work, because of unions.
reAllytee
16-10-2007, 11:02
Charity ?
You mean by demanding that all workers on site give at least $50 to families etc they havent even heard of etc when they are struggling themselves.
Dont get me wrong im sure there is just as much good out there but its a damn shame ive never seen any of it in my 29yrs of life.
forbetoel
16-10-2007, 11:15
Charity ?
You mean by demanding that all workers on site give at least $50 to families etc they havent even heard of etc when they are struggling themselves.
Dont get me wrong im sure there is just as much good out there but its a damn shame ive never seen any of it in my 29yrs of life.
I have no idea what you are talking about, but it is certainly not that. I have never heard of a union demanding $50 from families to give to other families:confused: Give me the name of that union, and work place, I would like to check it out. It is illegal to threaten people for money, it is called "mugging" and if this was true then you could most likely put that down to a bunch of bad individuals, I doubt this was a union decision, but as I have said, tell me what union, and work place, I am keen to check out this story.
missie_mack
16-10-2007, 11:22
There were families of non-union members bailed up in shopping centres being called horrid names. There was assaults of men wanting to work (maybe so they could pay their mortgages:rolleyes:)in front of unionist's children. I still remember one of the union guys turning to me (at the ripe old age of 8) and saying "See, that's what happens when you turn your back on your mates".:mad: some mates!
Unions are only groups of people. Sadly it would seem the collective of this union felt it was right to do these acts otherwise they wouldnt do them :no: People need to remember if the majority do not support the suggestion it just isnt followed. These type of acts really tend to reflect on the people in the union instead all all unions from all walks of life.
I remember my grandfather telling me about month long strikes and how the union would bring families boxes of fruit and vegies to help them out during the tough times.
reAllytee
16-10-2007, 11:42
I have no idea what you are talking about, but it is certainly not that. I have never heard of a union demanding $50 from families to give to other families:confused: Give me the name of that union, and work place, I would like to check it out. It is illegal to threaten people for money, it is called "mugging" and if this was true then you could most likely put that down to a bunch of bad individuals, I doubt this was a union decision, but as I have said, tell me what union, and work place, I am keen to check out this story.
It was done down in Melb on construction sites my sister fiance worked on as a plumber. I cant give you the name of the company cause i cant remember now as it was a few years ago when i lived with them & having had 2 kids since i have no brains lol.
It was often demanded that he pay over $50 or more to give to a family who were doing it tough, hubby had lost their job or was injured on the job. The union was the tradies union & it wasnt just on one site that this happened either.
Now dont get me wrong he never had any issues trying to support others but the fact it was demanded never 'asked' whether you could give the money or even allowed to give the amount you could afford at the time was where the problem lay.
forbetoel
16-10-2007, 11:49
It was done down in Melb on construction sites my sister fiance worked on as a plumber. I cant give you the name of the company cause i cant remember now as it was a few years ago when i lived with them & having had 2 kids since i have no brains lol.
It was often demanded that he pay over $50 or more to give to a family who were doing it tough, hubby had lost their job or was injured on the job. The union was the tradies union & it wasnt just on one site that this happened either.
Now dont get me wrong he never had any issues trying to support others but the fact it was demanded never 'asked' whether you could give the money or even allowed to give the amount you could afford at the time was where the problem lay.
Which trade union?? there are different one's. The allegations you are making are very serious, if you are saying that it was a "union" given instruction to force workers to give $50 to struggling families. I have worked at many places where a hat was passed around to help out a struggling family and I never had a problem with that, but you are saying that they were forced. As this story is few years old, and is a 3rd or 4th hand story, maybe the facts are not correct. I know many people in unions, and know the hard work and dedication that they put in to help struggling families out, and it never involves forcing others to give. NEVER That is why I would like to follow this up, if the story is 100% true, I have many friends in this field that would be interesed in following this up, and finding out if it was a union decision, or just a group of bad individuals, using the union name to get what they want.
reAllytee
16-10-2007, 12:01
Im just stating what happened to my family & being that i lived with them at the time i knew what happened.
I wont bother speaking out on here now.
forbetoel
16-10-2007, 12:12
Im just stating what happened to my family & being that i lived with them at the time i knew what happened.
I wont bother speaking out on here now.
There is nothing wrong with what you said.....if it were true, that is all I wanted to know because of all my friends who are dedicated union members/workers, if there is a group around like you stated, forcing at least $50 from workers, then other unions should know about it, and police charges should be laid. That is all I was saying. And was actually going to help you out by following up on it. You are allowed to say whatever you want :) but remember you posted this story in response to my post about unions doing a lot of good for charity. :) So of course I am interested in checking the actual merits of the story.
reAllytee
16-10-2007, 13:47
Thats fine & i dont have a problem with someone asking etc its when it seems like ive only said it to make unions look bad.
I really couldnt care less about them if i hadnt had many issues myself nor had my family but the fact is i have so this is why i speak up not because i want to cause trouble.
I will speak with my BIL & see whether he wants to do anything about it because while i can say yeah here are the details etc it wasnt me that this particular case happened to iykwim. Will PM if anything comes of it.
Mum&bubs
16-10-2007, 13:51
My dad is in a union. He's been in it for a very long time so I have no idea what's so wrong with it, never heard anything bad about them so far!
charlen49
16-10-2007, 19:36
im seeing something interesting evolving in this thread( im pro-unions by the way)...by all the stories being told..it seems to depend which union/unions you have been in volved with or had knowledge of family /friends involved in unions...i too grew up influenced by the unions ..i have been a memeber of the unions..i havent had a problem with them and they helped me and friends often..ie miners and teachers unions...but i have heard of the negative sides from other unions too....so i think it depends on the employment ur in and whether your particular union is going top stand by you in an honest and trustworthy fashion..like anything in life you neeed to way up the pros and cons...though i will say one thing...i cant stand 'scabs' who take jobs from honest hard working people..now they make my skin boil
forbetoel
16-10-2007, 21:17
...i cant stand 'scabs' who take jobs from honest hard working people..now they make my skin boil
Me too :yes:
Angelmist♥
16-10-2007, 21:38
So by 'scabs' who exactly do you mean? The people that are willing to work, regardless of what the union is doing?
SalTheGal
16-10-2007, 22:05
though i will say one thing...i cant stand 'scabs' who take jobs from honest hard working people..now they make my skin boil
Just wondering what exactly a 'scab' is? Is it someone who is not a member of a union who takes a job from someone who is??? :confused:
forbetoel
16-10-2007, 22:09
So by 'scabs' who exactly do you mean? The people that are willing to work, regardless of what the union is doing?
Now you are assuming that the union has striked for no good reason. A lot of strikes have been for real health and safety issues, and to back up somebody that was unfairly fired.
Angelmist♥
16-10-2007, 22:39
I am not assuming anything at all.I want to know who these 'scabs' are.
Are they the people who will work not caring that the unions are striking???That was my question and you still haven't answered.I take it by your response though that it is.
You know what, there will always be people willing to take your job.It's a fact of life! And let's face it, it's not like strikes are always for 'good reason'.
forbetoel
16-10-2007, 22:58
And let's face it, it's not like strikes are always for 'good reason'.
Yes I agree with you, some unions probally do get carried away. My experiences with them have always been for good solid issues, like safety, and in instances like that, it is really annoying to see the job still being done, it makes the strike really useless. In the strike I am referring to, there was a death at work involving a fork lift, and the business would not fix the problem, It was an all out approach which eventually led to the problem being resolved, but I can tell you, going on strike was a last resort.
Ok, i don't know much about unions at all, i have never been involved in a union and don't know of anyone personally involved in a union. I guess they do have their place in some industries, but i also really wonder how come they don't really seem to be accountable to anyone? How can some get away with bullying etc, do they not come under a broad banner of unions who make sure they are doing the right thing?
tooshypanda
16-10-2007, 23:39
Ha - I work for a Union :)
I am clerical though not an industrial organiser as we call them. Its a teachers union though so not construction...
Some unions (more construction types) are a bit heavy handed and I dont buy into the socialist/communist lean
im seeing something interesting evolving in this thread( im pro-unions by the way)...by all the stories being told..it seems to depend which union/unions you have been in volved with or had knowledge of family /friends involved in unions...i too grew up influenced by the unions ..i have been a memeber of the unions..i havent had a problem with them and they helped me and friends often..ie miners and teachers unions...but i have heard of the negative sides from other unions too....so i think it depends on the employment ur in and whether your particular union is going top stand by you in an honest and trustworthy fashion..like anything in life you neeed to way up the pros and cons...though i will say one thing...i cant stand 'scabs' who take jobs from honest hard working people..now they make my skin boil
Just wanted to ask - I gave my experience as a member of a certain union, should I start with my experience with other unions? I have a lot of experience with unions from other areas other than retail assistants - should I start on mining unions?...
So by 'scabs' who exactly do you mean? The people that are willing to work, regardless of what the union is doing?
Okay - here's where the mining (or some of the health union movements I've had experience in) come into it - I refuse to strike - show me a strike that has achieved it's meaningful purpose!
Now you are assuming that the union has striked for no good reason. A lot of strikes have been for real health and safety issues, and to back up somebody that was unfairly fired.
Okay - health and safety - nothing to do with unions!!! I have a very strong background in health and safety - I have been a H&S officer and work currently in the area of worker's compensation - it is government legislation that safeguards workers' safety. There is such a thing as the Occupational and Health and Safety Regulations which have nothing to do with unions (although they'd like you to think they do) which is currently in my bookshelf and I'd be happy to quote to help you understand government legislation...if there is a real issue regarding health or safety - report it to your worksafe department in your state - it doesn't have to go through your union - a worksite can be yellow or red ticketted due to unsafe workpractices regardless or anything unions do!
As far as I've experienced (worked very extensively with workers laid up through workplace accidents over the last 5years), unions tend to extend red tape rather than cutting it in terms of fair compensation and changing work place practices.
Yes - I'm now opening myself up to full discussion on this topic - too many people seem to be misled on this area.
Again...WORKPLACE SAFETY IS NOT A UNION LED ISSUE - IT IS A GOVERNMENT BOUND LEGISLATION WHICH IF EMPLOYERS CONTRAVENE IT CAN BE PROSECUTED!!!.
I know unions often lead the bandwagon stating that they change workplace safety, however, it's time for the facts to speak out rather than the propaganda
rynosmum
17-10-2007, 06:12
though i will say one thing...i cant stand 'scabs' who take jobs from honest hard working people..now they make my skin boil
...and this is exactly the union mentality that makes my blood boil.
If someone is willing to work not under union protection, then they are considered to be a 'scab', dishonest and not hardworking.
Wouldn't it be the opposite? Couldn't these people be so hardworking that they will risk these labels and retribution simply to put food on the table for their families and pay the mortgage?
This is exactly how unions are involved in bullying. If you are not with them, you are assumed to be against them. If you are 'against' them, then they will turn their members against you. It's a way to get a herd of people to bully the people who are truly hardworking and honest.
I have worked hard all of my life and achieve on my own merits, not what a union 'demands' that I am 'owed'. The world doesn't owe any of us a living but at the end of the day, how dare anyone accuse someone for being a 'scab' - that's bullying at it's best. We're all people and we are all trying to do the best for our families - it saddens me that people can gang up on others because they can hide behind the union banner. What sort of world is that?
forbetoel
17-10-2007, 07:14
I refuse to strike - show me a strike that has achieved it's meaningful purpose!
Okay - health and safety - nothing to do with unions!!! Yes - I'm now opening myself up to full discussion on this topic - too many people seem to be misled on this area.
Again...WORKPLACE SAFETY IS NOT A UNION LED ISSUE - IT IS A GOVERNMENT BOUND LEGISLATION WHICH IF EMPLOYERS CONTRAVENE IT CAN BE PROSECUTED!!!.
Well in the istance I was talking about, the strike certainly did work. As a last resort, strike action was taken, and it was only then that the owners of the business agreed to modify and upgrade the huge metal shelving that had only a month before killed a forklift driver, before that they were saying "it is just a freak accident" :rolleyes"
And as for unions having nothing to do with health and safety....I strongly disagree. Health and safety has only become a primary concern in the last 10 years or so, there was a time when the only people looking out for the safety of the workplace was the employee's, and it is the unions that represent them. Strike action certainly has worked in the past, and a lot of the time it was for health and safety issues. The workplace I am talking about has not had strike action for well over 10 years, and that is because finally health and safety is now being looked after properly, and there are now work safe officers, as well as a whole bunch of rules and regulations that are now imposed on business' to follow, there was once none of this, and health and safety was left to the workers and unions, and that is a fact.
charlen49
17-10-2007, 07:25
...and this is exactly the union mentality that makes my blood boil.
If someone is willing to work not under union protection, then they are considered to be a 'scab', dishonest and not hardworking.
Wouldn't it be the opposite? Couldn't these people be so hardworking that they will risk these labels and retribution simply to put food on the table for their families and pay the mortgage?
This is exactly how unions are involved in bullying. If you are not with them, you are assumed to be against them. If you are 'against' them, then they will turn their members against you. It's a way to get a herd of people to bully the people who are truly hardworking and honest.
I have worked hard all of my life and achieve on my own merits, not what a union 'demands' that I am 'owed'. The world doesn't owe any of us a living but at the end of the day, how dare anyone accuse someone for being a 'scab' - that's bullying at it's best. We're all people and we are all trying to do the best for our families - it saddens me that people can gang up on others because they can hide behind the union banner. What sort of world is that?im talking about in strike conditions..where families are fighting for better conditions..they sit 24hrs on a picket line and then some 'scab' walks across( in most cases an unloyal unskilled scab)....families have had to suffer for months/years..stabbing hard working loyal workers in the back is almost as low as being a rock spider as far as im concerned!!!!!!!! Ive seen it first hand..nothing about gangs involved in the cases ive seen..just struggling hardworking families !
Angelmist♥
17-10-2007, 07:30
Why can't 'scabs' (<<--BTW that word is nearly making me :barf:) be from a struggling hardworking family?? Why should anyone and everyone have to be loyal to a union?
As I said, you may hate the job but I can guarantee you there would be someone who would gladly take it.I think it's disgusting TBH that this mentality still exists. Calling someone who is willing to work a 'scab' is only one tiny step down from beating them as they go into work IMO.You know what really annoys me though, who says this 'scab' hasn't been unemployed and searching for months for work.Poor bugger can't win!
On the dole = a scab in majority of society's eyes.
Get a job = scab in union's eyes:rolleyes:
Can you not see the irony in that?
charlen49
17-10-2007, 07:40
Ha - I work for a Union :)
I am clerical though not an industrial organiser as we call them. Its a teachers union though so not construction...
Some unions (more construction types) are a bit heavy handed and I dont buy into the socialist/communist lean i totally agree...ive never come across heavy beef cakes in the nswtf!
I refuse to strike - show me a strike that has achieved it's meaningful purpose!
i can only comment on teaching..but its an actual fact that in the history of pay conditions for teachers in nsw(and they have been and still are heavily underpaid, same as nurses and the police in this state)...conditions have neverchanged without striking or negotions on the part of the unions..and thats a fact!:yes: ...oh and the Eureka stockade...unsafe mining conditions at Greta..are some some other examples!
forbetoel
17-10-2007, 07:46
On the dole = a scab in majority of society's eyes.
Get a job = scab in union's eyes:rolleyes:
Can you not see the irony in that?
No I can not see the irony.....Unions want struggling families to have jobs, you are taking what Charlen said totally out of context. She was referring to one single example where people taking your job is wrong.
I guess my DH is a scab it's either that or sack the apprentices that work for him.
mmmmmm i though we lived in a democratic country not under communism.
Fancy haveing a big bully stopping you going to work cause he says so?
forbetoel
17-10-2007, 07:56
I guess my DH is a scab it's either that or sack the apprentices that work for him.
mmmmmm i though we lived in a democratic country not under communism.
Fancy haveing a big bully stopping you going to work cause he says so?
Candyn we are talking of real reasons for strike actions, where it is really important that the workers unite as one, it is not as simplistic as a "a big bully telling you not to work"
Yes i understand, i had a bad experience with it once when i worked a Telco company for 8 years, unions decided to strike (i can't even remember what for it was very trivial) i refused to so i went into work as per normal and they blocked the entry! I was not happy!
If it is foor a good cause i am all for it but i would like to to make that decision for myself.
I agree with the teacher and nursing strikes cause i truly belive they are underpaid and over worked, but some cases i do not agree.
As i speak the radio news came through with the nurses strike today in VIC and good on them!
charlen49
17-10-2007, 08:07
Candyn we are talking of real reasons for strike actions, where it is really important that the workers unite as one, it is not as simplistic as a "a big bully telling you not to work"exactly!
who says this 'scab' hasn't been unemployed and searching for months for work.Poor bugger can't win!
?well in my experience..they have walked over the top of families..who have gone with out pay for months on end and had to sacrifice everything to get better conditions(so in effect they have been unemployed lost house lost family members lost evrything)..ie boeing dispute for example..or cases where miners have been killed because of unsafe practises..so its okay to treat another human being like dirt???
rynosmum
17-10-2007, 08:12
im talking about in strike conditions..where families are fighting for better conditions..they sit 24hrs on a picket line and then some 'scab' walks across( in most cases an unloyal unskilled scab)....families have had to suffer for months/years..
Personally I think that the person who is willing to keep going to work is the one that I'd employ, rather than the one who has been sitting on the picket line for the past 24 hours with the herd. The world doesn't owe us a living, employers owe us nothing unless we get off our butts and add value to their business. If you feel that you can add value but aren't getting supported where you work then change employers, change positions, heck change careers - that's the way to fight for your family's future - fight to get what you want through using your skills and committment, not bullying an employer through striking. Strike = stopping business, lowering client satisfaction and definitely lowering the market's perception of your business. If you strike to get better conditions, what value is that adding? How do you expect the employer to respect you as an employee under these conditions? Why would they then go out of their way later on to proactively offer you any better conditions based on your performance?
Why can't 'scabs' (<<--BTW that word is nearly making me :barf:) be from a struggling hardworking family?? Why should anyone and everyone have to be loyal to a union?
As I said, you may hate the job but I can guarantee you there would be someone who would gladly take it.I think it's disgusting TBH that this mentality still exists. Calling someone who is willing to work a 'scab' is only one tiny step down from beating them as they go into work IMO.You know what really annoys me though, who says this 'scab' hasn't been unemployed and searching for months for work.Poor bugger can't win!
On the dole = a scab in majority of society's eyes.
Get a job = scab in union's eyes:rolleyes:
Can you not see the irony in that?
Absolutely - it's glaringly obvious to me. Great Post :yelclap:
charlen49
17-10-2007, 08:13
I guess my DH is a scab it's either that or sack the apprentices that work for him.
mmmmmm i though we lived in a democratic country not under communism.
Fancy haveing a big bully stopping you going to work cause he says so?
ive been (before bub) a teacher for 15years..in that time ive been a nonunion and a union member..and i can honestly say that being a union member was my 'safest' option..the only way to get information and protection....the government is very reluctant in advertising your rights..and the unions are there to help and protect and in my line of work they have helped me and others on numerous occasions!
forbetoel
17-10-2007, 08:44
I agree with the teacher and nursing strikes cause i truly belive they are underpaid and over worked, but some cases i do not agree.
As i speak the radio news came through with the nurses strike today in VIC and good on them!
This is what I am talking about, not striking on a construction site because it has got a bit dusty, I am talking about real issues where workers need to stand united, to recieve what is best for every worker, not just the union members.....every worker gets the pay rise or improved conditions, that arise from strike action. :)
charlen49
17-10-2007, 08:46
This is what I am talking about, not striking on a construction site because it has got a bit dusty, I am talking about real issues where workers need to stand united, to recieve what is best for every worker, not just the union members.....every worker gets the pay rise or improved conditions, that arise from strike action. :):thumbsup: exactly..every worker!
Angelmist♥
17-10-2007, 13:47
:thumbsup: exactly..every worker!
..........except the ones who would like to feed their family:rolleyes:
forbetoel
17-10-2007, 13:54
..........except the ones who would like to feed their family:rolleyes:
No the benifits are for every worker, and I would like to think that all workers would like to feed their families.:)
missie_mack
17-10-2007, 13:57
Not all of them are about feeding their families though. I know people I work with who love it when the union places overtime bans on (for example OH&S issues- like unqualified people working on electricity wires.) They know the bans are for good reasons and often agree. However they suck up all the overtime they can sometimes working nearly 75 hours in a week. These arent people struggling to put food on the table these are the people taking advantage of the situation.
Often these people know that it will get passed because of the sacrifice of others and know if they sit back they will suck up the benefits of the strike as well as the surplus of work.
Not all of them are about feeding their families though. I know people I work with who love it when the union places overtime bans on (for example OH&S issues- like unqualified people working on electricity wires.) They know the bans are for good reasons and often agree. However they suck up all the overtime they can sometimes working nearly 75 hours in a week. These arent people struggling to put food on the table these are the people taking advantage of the situation.
Often these people know that it will get passed because of the sacrifice of others and know if they sit back they will suck up the benefits of the strike as well as the surplus of work.
BUT- the job still needs to be done? I dont see anything wrong with someone accepting overtime that is there for the taking.
forbetoel
17-10-2007, 14:02
Often these people know that it will get passed because of the sacrifice of others and know if they sit back they will suck up the benefits of the strike as well as the surplus of work.
Put perfectly, I absolutely agree!:yelclap: :yelclap: :yelclap: :yelclap:
Often it is the battlers that will lay it all on the line for what is important to them. I know in the 80's my dad went on strike for better pay and working conditions, quite a few times, and he had 4 little kids to feed. He still works at the same place now, and has not had to strike for over 10 years now, and says that those times of no pay, were worth it, because he see's young fathers now, doing what he was doing 20 years ago for a decent pay and great working conditions, his sacrifice was well and truly worth it.
forbetoel
17-10-2007, 14:03
BUT- the job still needs to be done? I dont see anything wrong with someone accepting overtime that is there for the taking.
But when the rest of the work force are striking without pay for the good of all workers it is just plain wrong!
charlen49
17-10-2007, 14:05
. The world doesn't owe us a living, employers owe us nothing unless we get off our butts and add value to their business. If you feel that you can add value but aren't getting supported where you work then change employers, change positions, heck change careers - that's the way to fight for your family's future - fight to get what you want through using your skills and committment, not bullying an employer through striking. Strike = stopping business, lowering client satisfaction and definitely lowering the market's perception of your business. If you strike to get better conditions, what value is that adding? How do you expect the employer to respect you as an employee under these conditions? Why would they then go out of their way later on to proactively offer you any better conditions based on your performance?
u have got to be joking..unions are what built this country and got you those lovely work conditions you have today..unions fought so woman could work and vote!!!!! th government(in respect to teaching) has never changed conditions unless its workers have been prepared to stand up for their rights..we all deserve fair pay for the job we do!!!!!!maternity leave is just one of those conditions we have fought for !
I dont think it is....
What if THAT particular worker doesnt care for the reason that they are striking for? What if he/she simply couldn't give a sh!t? What if he/she would PREFER to go to work than strike for something they dont believe in?
Should he/she then not earn the money because thats what everyone else is doing? Like a sheep?
charlen49
17-10-2007, 14:08
BUT- the job still needs to be done? I dont see anything wrong with someone accepting overtime that is there for the taking.thats different tanya!..those people are already in the job...we are talking about unskilled, un OHS trained, unprofessional leeches of society..what interesting..that those who dont fight for their rights are so easily accepting of those rights when gained..they dont seem to knock them back!:rolleyes:
forbetoel
17-10-2007, 14:09
I dont think it is....
What if THAT particular worker doesnt care for the reason that they are striking for? What if he/she simply couldn't give a sh!t? What if he/she would PREFER to go to work than strike for something they dont believe in?
Should he/she then not earn the money because thats what everyone else is doing? Like a sheep?
In most cases they probally do agree, but know everyone else can do the hard work for them, that is why people get so peeved with them. On the off chance they don't care about the reasons for striking, it is still annoying to the one's who are passionate about the reason to strike. A lot of people want to save their $5 a week in union fees but are more than happy to take all the pay rises and improved working conditions that the union strive so hard for. If you don't want to join a union, then fine, but you should be excempt from any improvements that come about from union negotiations.
charlen49
17-10-2007, 14:10
I dont think it is....
What if THAT particular worker doesnt care for the reason that they are striking for? What if he/she simply couldn't give a sh!t? What if he/she would PREFER to go to work than strike for something they dont believe in?
Should he/she then not earn the money because thats what everyone else is doing? Like a sheep?
fine dont except the new conditions or the the new payrise or whatever..stay on the same conditions ...if thats the case!( how many do that none!!!!!!!)
charlen49
17-10-2007, 14:12
In most cases they probally do agree, but know everyone else can do the hard work for them, that is why people get so peeved with them. On the off chance they don't care about the reasons for striking, it is still annoying to the one's who are passionate about the reason to strike. A lot of people want to save their $5 a week in union fees but are more than happy to take all the pay rises and improved working conditions that the union strive so hard for. If you don't want to join a union, then fine, but you should be excempt from any improvements that come about from union negotiations.here here..perfectly put!!!!!!! i bet my last dollar they dont though..all talk! full of cr@p!
missie_mack
17-10-2007, 14:12
BUT- the job still needs to be done? I dont see anything wrong with someone accepting overtime that is there for the taking.
At what cost? If for example what if it is a safety issue that the company is willing to overlook but the mass isn't willing to risk a life over? If everybody was of this opinion many things would never get fixed and many people wouldnt enjoy the working conditions they have today.
I don't understand how someone who is not willing to sacrifice the time and effort for a benefit feels that they are then entitled to receive it once it is introduced.
Really in my workplace I am secretly pleased that we have taken a common law agreement with our employer. The common law agreement is funded by the union and therefore legally there is no requirement for non union members to be covered by the benefits it gives. Such as payrises etc.
thats different tanya!..those people are already in the job...we are talking about unskilled, un OHS trained, unprofessional leeches of society..what interesting..that those who dont fight for their rights are so easily accepting of those rights when gained..they dont seem to knock them back!:rolleyes:
See Charli- My dh still has to go to work and do overtime and the work of three people when there is a strike on. He is not a union member and couldn't care less about the Union really. However, IF the Union requests are approved he still benefits. I dont say to him- no you cant go to work because its not morally right. I say "get your *** in there and earn $1.48 a minute".
forbetoel
17-10-2007, 14:14
Roopee, you have to imagine that you are in a job that is underpaid, (just for an example) you and your fellow workers agree to a strike in an attempt to get your workplace to pay you a decent wage for your particular job, once all other negotiations have failed....would it honestly not peeve you to see others just jumping into your role at work, so that the strike now means nothing? I am talking about striking for real reasons, not better quality soap in the showers!
charlen49
17-10-2007, 14:15
See Charli- My dh still has to go to work and do overtime and the work of three people when there is a strike on. He is not a union member and couldn't care less about the Union really. However, IF the Union requests are approved he still benefits. I dont say to him- no you cant go to work because its not morally right. I say "get your *** in there and earn $1.48 a minute".so he knocks back the extra rights/money gain by the unions does he?
forbetoel
17-10-2007, 14:17
Its not as bad as some who have you believe. In fact, alot of workers are better off.
Good for them, but I care about the ones that are not, and there are plenty of them....
charlen49
17-10-2007, 14:20
Roopee, you have to imagine that you are in a job that is underpaid, (just for an example) you and your fellow workers agree to a strike in an attempt to get your workplace to pay you a decent wage for your particular job, once all other negotiations have failed....would it honestly not peeve you to see others just jumping into your role at work, so that the strike now means nothing? I am talking about striking for real reasons, not better quality soap in the showers!exactly..for many years i was a casual/temporary school taecher..working the same hours/doing the exact job as fulltime(actually working harder in a lot of cases)..with no benefits or the same apyscale..thankgod the unions have been fighting this for as long as ive been teaching and its only in the last few years we finally got what we desrve ...i was a singlemum working my @rse of..i opnly use to get paid for the days work..no damn pension benfits etc..even if i worked everyday there was no sick pay, longservice leave, maternity leave for the exact same work..now there is..i sacrificed..supported the unions so that now we can receive what we are entitled!
missie_mack
17-10-2007, 14:21
Yes :detective: does he knock back the wage increase and only take what the management first put on the table?? Maybe your husband could negotiate his own pay rates and conditions in the workplace and well if he gets paid $3 a hour less that the hours take it on the chin because that is what he negotiated??
Wouldnt it be lovely if everywhere all non union members should have to negotiate their own agreements and if you want a group agreement should have to pay upfront. I wonder who would come up infront?
At what cost? If for example what if it is a safety issue that the company is willing to overlook but the mass isn't willing to risk a life over? If everybody was of this opinion many things would never get fixed and many people wouldnt enjoy the working conditions they have today.
I don't understand how someone who is not willing to sacrifice the time and effort for a benefit feels that they are then entitled to receive it once it is introduced.
Really in my workplace I am secretly pleased that we have taken a common law agreement with our employer. The common law agreement is funded by the union and therefore legally there is no requirement for non union members to be covered by the benefits it gives. Such as payrises etc.
The union does not negotiate and never has negotiated a pay rise for my husband. He does the negotiating for himself. Every 6 months he goes in to the office and talks with his boss and they come to an agreement.
He does not believe in the Unions in regards to his workplace- they have been known to be bullies and thugs and they strike of (sometimes) absolutely pathetic reasons.
All health and safety issues are handled by OH and S- not the Union (at Dh's work place.
In most cases they probally do agree, but know everyone else can do the hard work for them, that is why people get so peeved with them. On the off chance they don't care about the reasons for striking, it is still annoying to the one's who are passionate about the reason to strike. A lot of people want to save their $5 a week in union fees but are more than happy to take all the pay rises and improved working conditions that the union strive so hard for. If you don't want to join a union, then fine, but you should be excempt from any improvements that come about from union negotiations.
My Dh hasnt benefited from Union strikes yet. And he doesnt 'mostly' secretely agree either. When they strike they take a father away from his family for longer than necessary.
fine dont except the new conditions or the the new payrise or whatever..stay on the same conditions ...if thats the case!( how many do that none!!!!!!!)
One- mine- he negotiates his own agreement- has ever since he has been employed. It has nothing to do with IR laws- he has done it forever.
so he knocks back the extra rights/money gain by the unions does he?
Your getting defensive now. And i agree with why teachers strike charli- i get that but industry is different.
Angelmist♥
17-10-2007, 14:24
Roopee, you have to imagine that you are in a job that is underpaid, (just for an example) you and your fellow workers agree to a strike in an attempt to get your workplace to pay you a decent wage for your particular job, once all other negotiations have failed....would it honestly not peeve you to see others just jumping into your role at work, so that the strike now means nothing? I am talking about striking for real reasons, not better quality soap in the showers!
In that situation, maybe it would peeve me.Only because I was silly enough to think it would work! As I said, there are more than enough people willing to work if you're not.
charlen49
17-10-2007, 14:28
All health and safety issues are handled by OH and S- not the Union (at Dh's work place.tanya who do think got those conditions..that are now a legal requirement in all work places??
Your getting defensive now. And i agree with why teachers strike charli- i get that but industry is different.sorry if im sounding like that tanya..thats not my intention..but ur not answering the question either??...there is a wider world out there..not just one work place..a lot of the conditions that you hubby can negotiate were brought about by years of struggle by the unions since the eureka stockade..you have to admit to that!
charlen49
17-10-2007, 14:30
In that situation, maybe it would peeve me.Only because I was silly enough to think it would work! As I said, there are more than enough people willing to work if you're not. and reep the benefits fought for by others later!:rolleyes:
forbetoel
17-10-2007, 14:33
In that situation, maybe it would peeve me.Only because I was silly enough to think it would work! As I said, there are more than enough people willing to work if you're not.
Are you saying that striking never works? :confused: You are mistaken if that is the case.
Angelmist♥
17-10-2007, 14:39
Nope, I said what I said.Obviously they'll work if gates are chained and people are getting assaulted if they do try to go to work:rolleyes:.
(and I'm not saying all strikes are like that, just the ones I've had to witness......... before anyone gets their knickers in a twist:))
forbetoel
17-10-2007, 14:41
Nope, I said what I said.Obviously they'll work if gates are chained and people are getting assaulted if they do try to go to work:rolleyes:.
(and I'm not saying all strikes are like that, just the ones I've had to witness......... before anyone gets their knickers in a twist:))
My knickers are not in a twist :) however I am so sick of the rolling eye icon right now :p:)
forbetoel
17-10-2007, 14:42
Nope, I said what I said.Obviously they'll work if gates are chained and people are getting assaulted if they do try to go to work:rolleyes:.
)
Most unions, and I really do mean the majority, are very proffessional nowadays, strike action is not taken too often, as most unions now have great working relationships with business. :yes:
missie_mack
17-10-2007, 14:46
people being assulted?? I havent heard of that happening since the whole stevadore debarcle....
I can really appreciate what you are saying Roopee about the union in your DHs workplace. The union in my husbands workplace is pathetic pathetic pathetic... and sorry to say it is one of the teachers unions. They are lazy and apathetic. I was able to get a satisfactory response from the education office within 2 hours while they expected my DH to wait 3 weeks before contacting them... but thats a who other story. Even I have suggested to him that it would probably be a good idea resigning from that union. BUT I would never tar all unions with the same brush :no:
Angelmist♥
17-10-2007, 14:51
My knickers are not in a twist :) however I am so sick of the rolling eye icon right now
:laughing:<<--that better?:D
Most unions, and I really do mean the majority, are very proffessional nowadays, strike action is not taken too often, as most unions now have great working relationships with business.
Good to hear! I'm not knocking your opinion guys, honestly (hmm except for the whole calling people 'scabs' one!).I suppose I just have really bad associations with unions!Assaults, bullying, strikes over toilet paper........yes toilet paper FPS!
charlen49
17-10-2007, 15:00
[quote=Angelmist♥;(hmm except for the whole calling people 'scabs' one!).I suppose I just have really bad associations with unions!Assaults, bullying, strikes over toilet paper........yes toilet paper FPS![/quote]
hmm thats actually an historical term used during the 'waterfront' strikes of the 1920's..heard of the depression?i think we are all talking about the big union actions over working conditions such as safety etc..not piddly not worth mentioning toilet paper/soap box causes.
Angelmist♥
17-10-2007, 15:22
hmm historical terms are historical for a reason.........
forbetoel
17-10-2007, 15:28
hmm historical terms are historical for a reason.........
O.K so I hate the term 'scab' too, but used it anyway thinking it was the easiest way to describe the group of people I was referring to, thinking most people would know what I meant.
SorenLorensen
17-10-2007, 15:43
i dont really know what to think of unions.....i have been in one when i was working in a hospital but other then paying a few dollars a week thats the only thing i noticed about them the whole time i was there, so i have not good or bad views on them.
but when it comes to strikes i can understand that they are fighting for better working conditions (be it pay, environment etc...) but i can also fully understand what i refuse to refer to as "scabs"....
especialy these days....some people are living week to week...just one lost payslip can for many meat the lose of anything from a car to a house....
people are living at their limits and personaly i could not do it, but many are already in debt trouble as it is and while it may not be the unions fault they are in this position but they can all be expected to follow.... as i said just ONE payslip can do alot of damage.
so not all people can go on strike.
yes some may see them as scabs but there is alot of honor in providing for ones family and i dont think any union would want to see a worker lose the lot......money means alot these days.
so while yes i think it is ok to strike i dont think it is something everyone is able to do and dont think they should be put down just becuase they are struggling to provide for their families.
oh and yes i do realise the people i am talking about would benifit if the strike was for a wage rise.....but what good is that when the bank is already at the door
Angelmist♥
17-10-2007, 16:49
i think we are all talking about the big union actions over working conditions such as safety etc..not piddly not worth mentioning toilet paper/soap box causes.
You guys might be only referring to the big issues but what about the piddly ones? Is a father supposed to go without pay just because the union said so? Are the unions only of any real help when it is a big issue?
I got this in my email today, and thought it was rather apt for this thread...
“For a worker to refuse to belong to a union is not to exercise a democratic freedom.
It is to accept benefit that others have worked for without contributing to the costs.
Democracy flourishes only when freedom is accompanied by responsibility.”
missie_mack
17-10-2007, 17:44
Oh I was scratching around my desk for that one earlier :yes: Fully believe this one. I think it is a USU advertisement
charlen49
17-10-2007, 17:46
You guys might be only referring to the big issues but what about the piddly ones? Is a father supposed to go without pay just because the union said so? Are the unions only of any real help when it is a big issue?Whats this father business....its not just men that strike???Its not just men that contribute to family earning?You have a choice ..and no you dont have too..i sometimes went to work to help out a principal look after 100+ kids sent to school on a strike day because obviously some parents cant get care at short notice(plus principals dont usually strike..there has to be someone there at work)..but i sign a waiver to forgo my pay though because i belived in what they were striking for ..and yes ive been so low down that i ate only 'rice ' so my daughter could eat..so i know whatits like..but i still supported the unions..because i wanted there to be changes..and thank goodness there now is!:yes: ..when it comes to families who are up to their eyeballs in debt..whose fault is that..live within your means !That issue has nothing to do with unions trying to get better pay and conditions??
charlen49
17-10-2007, 17:47
You guys might be only referring to the big issues but what about the piddly ones? Is a father supposed to go without pay just because the union said so? Are the unions only of any real help when it is a big issue?
I got this in my email today, and thought it was rather apt for this thread...
“For a worker to refuse to belong to a union is not to exercise a democratic freedom.
It is to accept benefit that others have worked for without contributing to the costs.
Democracy flourishes only when freedom is accompanied by responsibility.”:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
EskimoMumma
17-10-2007, 18:02
I think its a cult.
Just like religion.
I have no real views. Just my opinion. :o
missie_mack
17-10-2007, 18:04
Hmmmm interesting thought. I wonder who is the god of all unionist?? :detective: Im sure we all know who the anti- christ is :laughing: :laughing:
I think its a cult.
Just like religion.
I disagree. Yes, I work for a union body, but I will be the first one to admit that I am not a staunch unionist.
If it were a cult, then I wouldn't be allowed to disagree with teachings/beliefs/actions.
As it is, I am allowed to vocally disagree with any decisions or actions that my union partake in. It's called freedom of speech and freedom of association.
charlen49
17-10-2007, 18:13
Hmmmm interesting thought. I wonder who is the god of all unionist?? :detective: Im sure we all know who the anti- christ is :laughing: :laughing::yes: :laughing:
jenkinsdakota
17-10-2007, 20:11
I think its a cult.
Just like religion.
Thank God Howard is not religious.
missie_mack
17-10-2007, 20:18
Actually due to something I read in another thread I can inform you that he is a regular church going Anglican...
forbetoel
17-10-2007, 20:38
I got this in my email today, and thought it was rather apt for this thread...
“For a worker to refuse to belong to a union is not to exercise a democratic freedom.
It is to accept benefit that others have worked for without contributing to the costs.
Democracy flourishes only when freedom is accompanied by responsibility.”
Awesome post :thumbsup: Just awesome!!!!!
forbetoel
17-10-2007, 20:40
I think its a cult.
Just like religion.
I have no real views. Just my opinion. :o
I am sorry, I don't even know where to begin with one! :confused:
Sheer Bliss
17-10-2007, 21:11
I think in all of this talk about unions being bullies etc everyone needs to take a step back & have a look at the bigger picture. There are 2 TOTALLY different (IMO) issues being talked about here which is why i see it going around in circles. There are your nice pretty unions (admin, whitecollar type ones) and your 'other' unions (mining, construction & heavy industry). They both seem VERY different to me. TBH I can see it VERY clearly from where i sit - DH & I both work at the same place in heavy industry - he is a blue collar worker, me an office chick - and there is a WORLD of difference between unions that would exist on our site.
Most people involved in the whitecollar unions (not all, as i realise there are many dif situations out there - like mine) have NO IDEA on what goes on in industry, it's a totally different game, the scare tactics talked about earlier DO go on. Workplace bullying DOES occur, and strikes OFTEN happen for silly reasons. Like when DH was in QLD in heavy construction, the 'boys' would strike (pick any reason out of a hat) just 'cause they wanted a few days off to go fishing/plant their crops. Now DH was directly involved in these meetings and they would MAKE UP reasons to strike (this isn't a 'third hand' that is distorted). He was up there to make us money for a house deposit, so he had to go without pay just so guys could go fishing.....this is NOT unions creating a better place for all! But he would have been a 'filthy scab' had he gone to work. (BTW :barf: to that terminology)
On the other hand - childcare workers/nurses etc probably have great unions - that do what needs to be done to try & get them better pay/conditions than what they have. They ARE (from what i can see) underpaid/overworked for the fantastic jobs most of them do. So in their case - the unions are necesary & doing a fantastic job fighting for the rights of those workers.
So now can we all see a distinct difference? IT appears to me that the 'differing opinions' are partly due to not knowing 'the other side of the fence' in regards to union matters. The dirty filthy world of industry is very different to the pretty clean world of a schoolyard or accounting office, so they have different needs in regards to unions. :yes: :D
Angelmist♥
17-10-2007, 21:17
:yelclap:Tan!Thanks for that:)
forbetoel
17-10-2007, 21:18
My DH was under the TWU which is blue collar, and is a great union, they never had a strike or any industrial action what so ever while he was there. The twu work pretty closely with the business. I am not disageeing with you, I agree about the mining and construction unions being the ones giving unions the bad name, but not all blue collar unions are bad. Even with the mining and construction unions, not all are bad, it only takes one idiot to make everyone look bad. :)
charlen49
17-10-2007, 21:33
My DH was under the TWU which is blue collar, and is a great union, they never had a strike or any industrial action what so ever while he was there. The twu work pretty closely with the business. I am not disageeing with you, I agree about the mining and construction unions being the ones giving unions the bad name, but not all blue collar unions are bad. Even with the mining and construction unions, not all are bad, it only takes one idiot to make everyone look bad. :):thumbsup: i totally agree..ive been in numerous unions , including blue collar and ive never come across bullying or scare tatics..its like anything takes one bad case to make all the rest look bad...df actually thinks the teachers union are weak and dont nearly do enough for teachers!( he is both white/blue collar)
tan..has he had to deal with these tatics since?or was just at his job in QLD?
missie_mack
17-10-2007, 21:36
Ok well lets see how bad unions are when it comes down to the numbers.
I have had minimum 4% pay increases a year for several years. The last two agreements have seen our employer contribute an 1% extra super a year on top of this. When at work I work a 35 hour week or 9 day fortnight. I received 6 months paid maternity leave and I am currently on 2 years parental leave. Saturdays are paid at time and a half. We have non accrued sick leave- which involves no limits provided it is real and documented. Working on public holidays is paid at triple time and half or double time and a day in leiu.
98% of these conditions I receive were provided and fought by my union. I have never lost a cent of pay for industrial action. Generally we place overtime bans and acting up bans (covering a supervisor for increased wages)
I would be interested to see if non union workers enjoy the benefits I have today based on their own efforts not piggy backing onto someone elses hard earnt and union paid award.
Personally I think I have a pretty sweet deal myself and I know it was done with collective bargaining through my union.
Sheer Bliss
17-10-2007, 21:42
My DH was under the TWU which is blue collar, and is a great union, they never had a strike or any industrial action what so ever while he was there. The twu work pretty closely with the business. I am not disageeing with you, I agree about the mining and construction unions being the ones giving unions the bad name, but not all blue collar unions are bad. Even with the mining and construction unions, not all are bad, it only takes one idiot to make everyone look bad. :)
I agree that there CAN be some good unions still in industry, but there are still some really nasty ones too. DH has worked in quite a few different industries, and some places are more unionised than others - the biggest problems being that despite there only being a few 'bad' unions - they are big ones too, so they affect a lot of people. :)
BTW - LOVE the smiley face at the end of your post - it's so hard to tell peoples tone on here, if they are getting really narky or just having a civilised discussion, and disagreeing. It's cool to see we can be adults about it even if we see it differently. :hugs:
charlen49
17-10-2007, 21:47
Ok well lets see how bad unions are when it comes down to the numbers.
I have had minimum 4% pay increases a year for several years. The last two agreements have seen our employer contribute an 1% extra super a year on top of this. When at work I work a 35 hour week or 9 day fortnight. I received 6 months paid maternity leave and I am currently on 2 years parental leave. Saturdays are paid at time and a half. We have non accrued sick leave- which involves no limits provided it is real and documented. Working on public holidays is paid at triple time and half or double time and a day in leiu.
98% of these conditions I receive were provided and fought by my union. I have never lost a cent of pay for industrial action. Generally we place overtime bans and acting up bans (covering a supervisor for increased wages)
I would be interested to see if non union workers enjoy the benefits I have today based on their own efforts not piggy backing onto someone elses hard earnt and union paid award.
Personally I think I have a pretty sweet deal myself and I know it was done with collective bargaining through my union. actually u just reminded me...the last 3 stop work meetings before i stopped work i didnt lose pay either and i responsibly went straight back to work for 1/2 a day! and i supported my union by going to the meetings!
Sheer Bliss
17-10-2007, 21:53
Ok well lets see how bad unions are when it comes down to the numbers.
I have had minimum 4% pay increases a year for several years. The last two agreements have seen our employer contribute an 1% extra super a year on top of this. When at work I work a 35 hour week or 9 day fortnight. I received 6 months paid maternity leave and I am currently on 2 years parental leave. Saturdays are paid at time and a half. We have non accrued sick leave- which involves no limits provided it is real and documented. Working on public holidays is paid at triple time and half or double time and a day in leiu.
98% of these conditions I receive were provided and fought by my union. I have never lost a cent of pay for industrial action. Generally we place overtime bans and acting up bans (covering a supervisor for increased wages)
I would be interested to see if non union workers enjoy the benefits I have today based on their own efforts not piggy backing onto someone elses hard earnt and union paid award.
Personally I think I have a pretty sweet deal myself and I know it was done with collective bargaining through my union.
I am a non-union member, we don't have any office workers on my site in a union....I am off on 3months paid maternity leave, 22months in total of parenting leave. Company poilcy has a standard of no more than 12months leave - I negotiated with my boss & the HR manager to get the extra time off to be with my boy.
I get a 4% increase each year, possibly in place from union action ages ago, BUT I actually got a 33% increase the year I graduated from Uni - Negotiated by ME no union or collective bargaining came into it. I will also negotiate another increase when i return from leave this time as i will have completed more formal qualifications. I also negotiated my position to be re-arranged after returning to work after my daughter was born so i could work part-time. I can also take time off to attend daycare mothers day shows etc. I think I have it pretty sweet.
DH is a union member on the same site - he can't take more than 12months in parental leave should i return to work earlier, his union gave away that right. He also can't take time off to attend things for our daughter unless it is annual leave, approved in advance. I could go on with the many more things the union has bargained away - that we as a family would have liked to keep. Unions can't cater to indivudual circumstances - so how can this be for the good of all?
forbetoel
17-10-2007, 21:58
I
BTW - LOVE the smiley face at the end of your post - it's so hard to tell peoples tone on here, if they are getting really narky or just having a civilised discussion, and disagreeing. It's cool to see we can be adults about it even if we see it differently. :hugs:
:thumbsup: That is why I put it there, hoping you would see it as just part of the discussion, not an attack on your post!
missie_mack
17-10-2007, 21:58
Can I ask what state you live in Charlismum and whether you come under state or federal legislation??:wave:
I think in all of this talk about unions being bullies etc everyone needs to take a step back & have a look at the bigger picture. There are 2 TOTALLY different (IMO) issues being talked about here which is why i see it going around in circles. There are your nice pretty unions (admin, whitecollar type ones) and your 'other' unions (mining, construction & heavy industry). They both seem VERY different to me. TBH I can see it VERY clearly from where i sit - DH & I both work at the same place in heavy industry - he is a blue collar worker, me an office chick - and there is a WORLD of difference between unions that would exist on our site.
Most people involved in the whitecollar unions (not all, as i realise there are many dif situations out there - like mine) have NO IDEA on what goes on in industry, it's a totally different game, the scare tactics talked about earlier DO go on. Workplace bullying DOES occur, and strikes OFTEN happen for silly reasons. Like when DH was in QLD in heavy construction, the 'boys' would strike (pick any reason out of a hat) just 'cause they wanted a few days off to go fishing/plant their crops. Now DH was directly involved in these meetings and they would MAKE UP reasons to strike (this isn't a 'third hand' that is distorted). He was up there to make us money for a house deposit, so he had to go without pay just so guys could go fishing.....this is NOT unions creating a better place for all! But he would have been a 'filthy scab' had he gone to work. (BTW :barf: to that terminology)
On the other hand - childcare workers/nurses etc probably have great unions - that do what needs to be done to try & get them better pay/conditions than what they have. They ARE (from what i can see) underpaid/overworked for the fantastic jobs most of them do. So in their case - the unions are necesary & doing a fantastic job fighting for the rights of those workers.
So now can we all see a distinct difference? IT appears to me that the 'differing opinions' are partly due to not knowing 'the other side of the fence' in regards to union matters. The dirty filthy world of industry is very different to the pretty clean world of a schoolyard or accounting office, so they have different needs in regards to unions. :yes: :D
This would have to be the best post i have read all day! Kudos to you!:yelclap:
I am a non-union member, we don't have any office workers on my site in a union....I am off on 3months paid maternity leave, 22months in total of parenting leave. Company poilcy has a standard of no more than 12months leave - I negotiated with my boss & the HR manager to get the extra time off to be with my boy.
I get a 4% increase each year, possibly in place from union action ages ago, BUT I actually got a 33% increase the year I graduated from Uni - Negotiated by ME no union or collective bargaining came into it. I will also negotiate another increase when i return from leave this time as i will have completed more formal qualifications. I also negotiated my position to be re-arranged after returning to work after my daughter was born so i could work part-time. I can also take time off to attend daycare mothers day shows etc. I think I have it pretty sweet.
DH is a union member on the same site - he can't take more than 12months in parental leave should i return to work earlier, his union gave away that right. He also can't take time off to attend things for our daughter unless it is annual leave, approved in advance. I could go on with the many more things the union has bargained away - that we as a family would have liked to keep. Unions can't cater to indivudual circumstances - so how can this be for the good of all?
Think i'll just follow you around tonight and quote you? Ok?:detective::laughing:
Sheer Bliss
17-10-2007, 22:01
Can I ask what state you live in Charlismum and whether you come under state or federal legislation??:wave:
NSW - state. Enterprise agreement in place.
Sheer Bliss
17-10-2007, 22:02
Think i'll just follow you around tonight and quote you? Ok?:detective::laughing:
:thumbsup: :D
charlen49
17-10-2007, 22:04
Tan..maternity overides paternity in most cases...sounds like you have it good?sorry to say but ur dh has better than alot of places in regard to paternity leave!
forbetoel
17-10-2007, 22:05
DH is a union member on the same site - he can't take more than 12months in parental leave should i return to work earlier, his union gave away that right. He also can't take time off to attend things for our daughter unless it is annual leave, ?
No more than 12 months leave? that is pretty normal isn't it? Also for trading away certain things, it was probally still the right thing to do! That is what unions do....negotiate.....give and take with the employer to get the best deal possible for the worker, so if one such negotiation left epmployees with no more than 12 months maternity leave, I wonder what they got in exchange for it? Probally something they now take for granted, like overtime, or a pay increase?????:detective:
missie_mack
17-10-2007, 22:05
If you decide to go back to work earlier and your DH would like to take some parental leave it might be worth your time to have a look at the family provisions act of 2005. To my knowledge they cant bargain away with those entitlements and most award state that parental leave/maternity leave are inline with the act of 1996 which now incorporates that. But of course I would suggest you have a word with IR NSW prior to making the call for confirmation and backup.
Incidently the family provisions act gives a parent albeit usually the mother the entitlement to alter her working arrangement to part time until the youngest child reaches school age. :)
ETA to deny your husband up to the 24 months parental leave or the remaining amount of yours your husband would have to be deemed in an industrial relations court by your employer irreplaceable or that without him the company would face severe hardship. Most companies wouldnt want to
a) state in court that anyone is irreplacable as they could and probably would leave themselves open to problems should they ever dismiss the staff member
b) really they dont want to waste the manpower or $$ taken up unneccessarily in court over unpaid leave,
charlen49
17-10-2007, 22:07
If you decide to go back to work earlier and your DH would like to take some parental leave it might be worth your time to have a look at the family provisions act of 2005. To my knowledge they cant bargain away with those entitlements and most award state that parental leave/maternity leave are inline with the act of 1996 which now incorporates that. But of course I would suggest you have a word with IR NSW prior to making the call for confirmation and backup.
Incidently the family provisions act gives a parent albeit usually the mother the entitlement to alter her working arrangement to part time until the youngest child reaches school age. :)wow girl im impressed you know ur stuff:thumbsup:
charlen49
17-10-2007, 22:08
No more than 12 months leave? that is pretty normal isn't it? Also for trading away certain things, it was probally still the right thing to do! That is what unions do....negotiate.....give and take with the employer to get the best deal possible for the worker, so if one such negotiation left epmployees with no more than 12 months maternity leave, I wonder what they got in exchange for it? Probally something they now take for granted, like overtime, or a pay increase?????:detective::thumbsup: thats what i thought..
Sheer Bliss
17-10-2007, 22:12
Note sure if you guys are aware of this (http://www.industrialrelations.nsw.gov.au/workandfamily/parents/default.html)
Under this ruling - should i decide to return to work after 12months (which i would have been doing if i hadn't negotiated otherwise), DH should be entitled to take the next 12 months off (we just both can't be off at the same time). Granted - most men probably wouldn't ever want to do this. :laughing: But it is something we had discussed, as i have (or should i say had before my baby brain went mushy :D )the capacity to earn more than him with less overtime.
The decision in federal court wasn't widely publicised, i seriously doubt the union reps had any idea it existed, and they were giving it away. They probably just didn't question the leave section with no more than 12 months leave in it, so i am not certain they gained anything from it.
missie_mack
17-10-2007, 22:14
Sadly under work choices the employer no longer has a requirement to inform the employee of their entitlements... its a case of you snooze you lose now :thumbsdown:
Im lucky I have my education behind me and I happily share my knowledge with other staff so that they know these things. That is one of the million reasons I belong to a union....
Charlismum I think you will find that federal ruling does not apply in every state however....
ETA Actually Charlismum what you have just referred to is what I was talking about. It however only applies to NSW employees who are covered under a state agreement or NSW common law agreement.
Sheer Bliss
17-10-2007, 22:15
If you decide to go back to work earlier and your DH would like to take some parental leave it might be worth your time to have a look at the family provisions act of 2005. To my knowledge they cant bargain away with those entitlements and most award state that parental leave/maternity leave are inline with the act of 1996 which now incorporates that. But of course I would suggest you have a word with IR NSW prior to making the call for confirmation and backup.
Incidently the family provisions act gives a parent albeit usually the mother the entitlement to alter her working arrangement to part time until the youngest child reaches school age. :)
ETA to deny your husband up to the 24 months parental leave or the remaining amount of yours your husband would have to be deemed in an industrial relations court by your employer irreplaceable or that without him the company would face severe hardship. Most companies wouldnt want to
a) state in court that anyone is irreplacable as they could and probably would leave themselves open to problems should they ever dismiss the staff member
b) really they dont want to waste the manpower or $$ taken up unneccessarily in court over unpaid leave,
From my understanding the 2005 family provisions is a ruling/decision only, not a law that employers are bound by, so it is something that can be negotiated away. I have done my research.
forbetoel
17-10-2007, 22:16
Note sure if you guys are aware of this (http://www.industrialrelations.nsw.gov.au/workandfamily/parents/default.html)
Under this ruling - should i decide to return to work after 12months (which i would have been doing if i hadn't negotiated otherwise), DH should be entitled to take the next 12 months off (we just both can't be off at the same time). Granted - most men probably wouldn't ever want to do this. :laughing: But it is something we had discussed, as i have (or should i say had before my baby brain went mushy :D )the capacity to earn more than him with less overtime.
The decision in federal court wasn't widely publicised, i seriously doubt the union reps had any idea it existed, and they were giving it away. They probably just didn't question the leave section with no more than 12 months leave in it, so i am not certain they gained anything from it.
I still think 12 months is pretty good, it is what most work places would offer. I am no expert in this, as I never wanted to return to work after I had my kids, but I just don't see how your DH having only 12 months leave is really that bad of a thing?
Sheer Bliss
17-10-2007, 22:18
Gotta stop all this quoting!! I miss a lmost a whole page of posts in the time it takes me to reply to one! :laughing:
and then i rush to reply & my typing is all over the place!
missie_mack
17-10-2007, 22:20
From my understanding the 2005 family provisions is a ruling/decision only, not a law that employers are bound by, so it is something that can be negotiated away. I have done my research.
No it is covered under the industrial relations act of 1996 that is stated in most awards. Unless your award doesnt state that parental leave is inline with the above law you are covered :thumbsup: But like I said it wouldnt hurt to confirm with NSW IR.
Sheer Bliss
17-10-2007, 22:20
I still think 12 months is pretty good, it is what most work places would offer. I am no expert in this, as I never wanted to return to work after I had my kids, but I just don't see how your DH having only 12 months leave is really that bad of a thing?
It's not really a big thing - i was using that more of an example of things that can get traded away under collective union agreements. TBH he wouldn't last longer than a week as a SAHD!! That was one of the things we discussed when we decided i would take the time off & not him. (plus once my bubba was born - there was no way i was leaving her for any amount of money.)
forbetoel
17-10-2007, 22:24
(plus once my bubba was born - there was no way i was leaving her for any amount of money.)
Well we agree on that! :thumbsup: :yelclap:
missie_mack
17-10-2007, 22:25
I still think 12 months is pretty good, it is what most work places would offer. I am no expert in this, as I never wanted to return to work after I had my kids, but I just don't see how your DH having only 12 months leave is really that bad of a thing?
The act was implemented (partially) because of the growing difficulty in obtaining qualitiy childcare for children under 2. Especially in capital cities. In some places in Sydney you need to put your child on the books prior to conception to get a place at 2. Especially if you have a small targeted area near your work.
Sheer Bliss
17-10-2007, 22:26
[quote removed by moderator]
Thanks for trying to help, but I have had it looked at by a close friend with masters in IR (who also happens to have inside out knowledge of the onsite agreement for DH :p ) and the company has policies on leave clearly stated in the negotiations, and the 12months stands. I am not too sure of all the ins & outs myself, but it is a big company with the agreements usually taking months to finalise - the unions & the company pick everything to bits.
millymoo
18-10-2007, 06:47
Wow!
have just read through this thread and union issues certainly stir up some passion in you all!
On arriving here 3 years ago we were not aware of unions as they were abolished in the Uk in the 70`s.
Dh has just changed job and is now a non union member and I am nothing but reliieved as the experiences we had were pretty archaic as well as bullish, threatening etc.On arriving here and not being told unions existed in the company he joined he happily got on with work....someone found out he wasn`t in the union and his life at work was made intolerable..he wasn`t being difficult just totally unaware coming from the uk..moved to another job and joined union immediately to prevent a repeat experience. his first experience of a strike was like ...go home mate basically or do`nt continue working here....nice! All he was doing was asking what was going on as it was his first strike experience!!So you can see we didn`t have a good time of it...and I won`t even go into the reasons for the strikes:rolleyes:
charlen49
18-10-2007, 07:06
:wave: hi im mr nobody!!!!!!!!!!!:( ..wow helen..what a surprise;)
millymoo
18-10-2007, 07:13
I guess I have grown up for 34 years in a different country with different ways and work practices so when we came here it was just one of the many cultural differences we came across. Who knows my views were i bought up here........
charlen49
18-10-2007, 07:23
:yes: all opinions are welcome no matter where u from helen........nice to see u in a different arena!
Gruffalo
18-10-2007, 11:22
I find it amusing to read anyone's post where all of a sudden they are at the defence of what they have just written. To be honest I probably believe 99% of what everyone has said about unions, and that is there are some good and some not as good, and that many people have had these bad and good experiences. At the end of the day, people generally have some idea on what unions are going to benefit the worker and what unions to stay away from and avoid. I find it amazing that my husband who is also in construction avoids union jobs, and trust me there is plenty of non-union work around, because he knows exactly what construction unions can be like. But my mum on the other hand, well her union is assisting her immensley because her workplace is refusing to pay her what she is entitled to, and what long service she is also entitled to. There are some unions we do not support but most we do support because majority are there to help and support workers rights. It just takes a little comonsense to determine a good one from a bad one.
I think everyone needs to come to a happy medium on this as everyone is just going around in circles.
SalTheGal
18-10-2007, 14:00
I think in all of this talk about unions being bullies etc everyone needs to take a step back & have a look at the bigger picture. There are 2 TOTALLY different (IMO) issues being talked about here which is why i see it going around in circles. There are your nice pretty unions (admin, whitecollar type ones) and your 'other' unions (mining, construction & heavy industry). They both seem VERY different to me. TBH I can see it VERY clearly from where i sit - DH & I both work at the same place in heavy industry - he is a blue collar worker, me an office chick - and there is a WORLD of difference between unions that would exist on our site.
Most people involved in the whitecollar unions (not all, as i realise there are many dif situations out there - like mine) have NO IDEA on what goes on in industry, it's a totally different game, the scare tactics talked about earlier DO go on. Workplace bullying DOES occur, and strikes OFTEN happen for silly reasons. Like when DH was in QLD in heavy construction, the 'boys' would strike (pick any reason out of a hat) just 'cause they wanted a few days off to go fishing/plant their crops. Now DH was directly involved in these meetings and they would MAKE UP reasons to strike (this isn't a 'third hand' that is distorted). He was up there to make us money for a house deposit, so he had to go without pay just so guys could go fishing.....this is NOT unions creating a better place for all! But he would have been a 'filthy scab' had he gone to work. (BTW :barf: to that terminology)
On the other hand - childcare workers/nurses etc probably have great unions - that do what needs to be done to try & get them better pay/conditions than what they have. They ARE (from what i can see) underpaid/overworked for the fantastic jobs most of them do. So in their case - the unions are necesary & doing a fantastic job fighting for the rights of those workers.
So now can we all see a distinct difference? IT appears to me that the 'differing opinions' are partly due to not knowing 'the other side of the fence' in regards to union matters. The dirty filthy world of industry is very different to the pretty clean world of a schoolyard or accounting office, so they have different needs in regards to unions. :yes: :D
I am a non-union member, we don't have any office workers on my site in a union....I am off on 3months paid maternity leave, 22months in total of parenting leave. Company poilcy has a standard of no more than 12months leave - I negotiated with my boss & the HR manager to get the extra time off to be with my boy.
I get a 4% increase each year, possibly in place from union action ages ago, BUT I actually got a 33% increase the year I graduated from Uni - Negotiated by ME no union or collective bargaining came into it. I will also negotiate another increase when i return from leave this time as i will have completed more formal qualifications. I also negotiated my position to be re-arranged after returning to work after my daughter was born so i could work part-time. I can also take time off to attend daycare mothers day shows etc. I think I have it pretty sweet.
DH is a union member on the same site - he can't take more than 12months in parental leave should i return to work earlier, his union gave away that right. He also can't take time off to attend things for our daughter unless it is annual leave, approved in advance. I could go on with the many more things the union has bargained away - that we as a family would have liked to keep. Unions can't cater to indivudual circumstances - so how can this be for the good of all?
Tan, I take my hat off to you...I have been following this thread and gone to post several times, but haven't been able to articulate what I wanted to say....you have said it all for me! :yelclap:
There are great oppurtunities out there for vauable employees, as a manager I have often negotiated with an employee I did not want to lose to give them the best deal poosible, and as an employee I have done the same thing on the other end. Sometimes I feel like people are taking the easy road by expecting a union to do there bargianing for them?
forbetoel
18-10-2007, 14:02
taking the easy road by expecting a union to do there bargianing for them?
Some people lack the confidence and ability to communicate well enough to do their own negotiation....I know I would suck at it.
SalTheGal
18-10-2007, 14:35
Some people lack the confidence and ability to communicate well enough to do their own negotiation....I know I would suck at it.
Yeah I get that, and to be honest this will possibly sound kinda snobby but I am not one of those people....I am the kind of person who would hate to relinquish control of my destiny to a union, when I know that I can do as good if not better job at negotiating my own agreement. I have faith in my value as an employee that I believe I can get the best deal on offer on my own merits.
Perhaps if this were the 'norm' then people would/could learn the skills needed to form their own agreements- it is a very empowering thing to walk away from a negotiating knowing that you are valued enough for your employer to want to keep you on board, thus come up with a rewarding agreement.
I do get that in many industries unions have a valuable purpose...sometimes I just wonder if people rely on them too much to do the hard yards? I don't know- just throwing it out there as a ponder! :)
"Asbestos disease sufferer and activist Bernie Banton has attacked federal Workplace Relations Minister Joe Hockey's comments that the role of unions in the Australian workplace is over.
Mr Banton was a high profile campaigner for asbestos disease sufferers in the union-backed case against the James Hardie company.
He said Mr Hockey's comment today was wrong and that, without the unions, asbestos victims would never have received justice."
I think that it really depends on the industry. In cases of companies like James Hardie, you really need a balance of power, the unions seemed to provide that in this instance.
charlen49
18-10-2007, 14:42
Some people lack the confidence and ability to communicate well enough to do their own negotiation....I know I would suck at it.:thumbsup: also most people dont know the legalities of most things which sadly in this day and age is needed so bosses dont do the wrong thing by you too... im quite happy to let the professionals do their job and fight for me..thats their job..whilst i do mine!
Some people lack the confidence and ability to communicate well enough to do their own negotiation....I know I would suck at it.
Ooooohhhh i highly doubt you would 'suck' at that. If your anything like you re on here IRL- then i am guessing that you would cut yourself a great deal!
forbetoel
18-10-2007, 14:47
Yeah I get that, and to be honest this will possibly sound kinda snobby but I am not one of those people....I am the kind of person who would hate to relinquish control of my destiny to a union, when I know that I can do as good if not better job at negotiating my own agreement. I have faith in my value as an employee that I believe I can get the best deal on offer on my own merits.
Perhaps if this were the 'norm' then people would/could learn the skills needed to form their own agreements- it is a very empowering thing to walk away from a negotiating knowing that you are valued enough for your employer to want to keep you on board, thus come up with a rewarding agreement.
I do get that in many industries unions have a valuable purpose...sometimes I just wonder if people rely on them too much to do the hard yards? I don't know- just throwing it out there as a ponder! :)
:wave: Yep, I do get what you are saying, but I know myself, I have been out of the workforce for 8 years now, and by the time my baby starts school it will be about 13 years :eek: So really I am not expecting to have too much confidence in my ability to negotiate, as for the last 8 years my negotiating skills have been limited to 'children's disputes' For me, my career is my kids, so when I do go back, one day, maybe part time, I guess I would hope there is a union to do the hard work of negotiating for me, as I would really only be there for the extra money to get my kids through secondary school anyway. It is great if you know how to do it yourself, but I don't even want to, I would be happy to have whatever the union comes up with, and more than happy to pay my union fees to support them. Wow this is a long boring post, hope it makes sense!
forbetoel
18-10-2007, 14:48
Well I was just forced to join our union in the industry I work in because allll of a sudden since I got pregnant wouldn't you know it, my boss decides he's unhappy ... unbelievable. I'm thankful I have a union to join - just in case I need them.
That's great Bronny and that is what unions are there for, to protect those that need it, for what ever reason. :thumbsup:
charlen49
18-10-2007, 14:57
i know of a lovely example where a verygood friend 23yrs ago gave birth to a stilborn baby...her union(who she had consulted with over the years and had beena union delegate over the years) came straight in when they found out about her situation and got her as much paid leave as she wanted until she was ready to go back to work( something she wasnt really entitled to at the time)..she certainly wasnt in the frame of mind to bargain for herself..so an example where she was grateful to have compassion and understanding from a union:yes:
charlen49
18-10-2007, 14:58
That's great Bronny and that is what unions are there for, to protect those that need it, for what ever reason. :thumbsup:here here thank god!:yes:
forbetoel
18-10-2007, 17:03
4Boys2Love you might be surprised at all the skills that cross over, how about multi tasking! I bet you are an ace multi tasker :)
Yes I am great at mult-tasking, I am typing this while my 20 month old is belting me in head with his cup. OUCH!!!
charlen49
18-10-2007, 20:11
Yes I am great at mult-tasking, I am typing this while my 20 month old is belting me in head with his cup. OUCH!!! :thumbsup: i think all mums could run the world:yes:
For anyone who is interested...
THIS (http://www.actu.asn.au/AboutACTU/abouttradeunions/default.aspx) link will give you a brief history on Unions in Australia over the past 200 years. I studied Australian History at school, but there were things in that list that I had no idea the unions had been involved in.
IMO, unions have really helped to shape the industry and working conditions that we enjoy today - regardless of whether we have negotiated them ourselves or not.
ETA:
Copied straight off that site:
The union scorecard
* the right of workers to form a union which elects its own independent representatives;
* award to ensure that employers observe minimum wages and working conditions;
* equal pay;
* long service leave;
* pay loading for evenings, nights and weekends;
* paid public holidays;
* periodic wage increases;
* maternity/adoption/parental leave;
* annual leave and leave loading;
* protective clothing and equipment provided by the employer;
* occupational health and safety laws;
* compensation for injury;
* occupational superannuation;
* the right to be given notice and to be consulted about changes at work (eg new technology, planned retrenchments, new working arrangements);
* personal carer's leave.
Makes me wonder how each individual might have achieved these things on their own - negotiating on their own.
charlen49
18-10-2007, 20:32
roxy..and thats just the tip of the iceberg..you are so right in your last comment!!!
forbetoel
18-10-2007, 20:42
Thanks for that Roxy, that last comment really rings true...I do wonder???
While I do agree unions do have their place (where big numbers are needed to go against big companies - ie James Hardie etc), I object to being forced to join a union, pay fees to them etc. I disagree with some of the below posted by Roxy (oops - just realised that by quoting I lost her link - like the issues with penalty rates etc. As I've stated before, it was the union in a previous job that negotiated away my penalty rates and made it so longer hours had to be worked for overtime etc (not going to post the rest as I've posted it before.).
For anyone who is interested...
THIS (http://www.actu.asn.au/AboutACTU/abouttradeunions/default.aspx) link will give you a brief history on Unions in Australia over the past 200 years. I studied Australian History at school, but there were things in that list that I had no idea the unions had been involved in.
IMO, unions have really helped to shape the industry and working conditions that we enjoy today - regardless of whether we have negotiated them ourselves or not.
ETA:
Copied straight off that site:
Makes me wonder how each individual might have achieved these things on their own - negotiating on their own.
I like the idea of voluntary unionism as it makes sure the union is accountable for it's actions to make sure it gains and keeps members.
In my profession we have an association to lobby for us (regarding registration etc) and it is run very different to a union - this is how I would love to see unions run.
As for unions - I still believe a lot of them overestimate their power. As I've stated before, I've worked fairly extensively in the area of rehab for people under worker's comp, and I can honestly say in a lot of those situations, the unions impede the process rather than helping it. The workers get very confused as they are in rather vulnerable positions, but when you are dealing with insurance companies and lawyers, and have unions involved who are not fully versed with the workers compensation act, it can be very detrimental to the injured worker.
Something else I got in my email today...
Manic times presents .... what have the unions ever done for us:
Check out the video (http://www.manictimes.com.au/) (the video is on the front page)
and (if that doesn’t work cause its just so popular, you can try) Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=184NTV2CE_c)
[/QUOTE]
Something else I got in my email today...
"]Youtube[/URL]
[/QUOTE]
While I love the chaser (manictimes is run by chaser boys) and think satire has it's place, it's place is not anywhere where serious discussion is trying to be had on what a particular group has or has not achieved. I'd argue pretty strongly about the issues about occupational health and safety and workers compensation (before I go and research any of the other things brought up - as at least I know the history of the ones I mentioned).
Let's have a joke thread somewhere else - and leave this one to people's experiences, not marred by humourous videos not based in fact or experience.
forbetoel
20-10-2007, 09:15
Something else I got in my email today...
"]Youtube[/url]
[/quote]
I think it was great!:thumbsup: Nothing like putting a bit of humour into the discussion.
I am sorry that I obviously offended you Pegasus, I just thought that it was another way of showing the readers of this thread what unions have actually done for the workers of Australia.
It seems that union-bashing is ok in this thread, but posting something that gave people something to think about isn't. :thumbsdown:
forbetoel
20-10-2007, 19:16
It seems that union-bashing is ok in this thread, but posting something that gave people something to think about isn't. :thumbsdown:
I feel the exact same way, and I have really enjoyed all your very informative posts. Well done Roxy....Give us some more of the same:thumbsup: :) :yelclap: :smiliedance: :yes:
While I love the chaser (manictimes is run by chaser boys) and think satire has it's place, it's place is not anywhere where serious discussion is trying to be had on what a particular group has or has not achieved. I'd argue pretty strongly about the issues about occupational health and safety and workers compensation (before I go and research any of the other things brought up - as at least I know the history of the ones I mentioned).
Let's have a joke thread somewhere else - and leave this one to people's experiences, not marred by humourous videos not based in fact or experience.
I disagree - a bit of humour is ok, as long as the message is sound. If it was all serious debate this place would be very dour indeed. There has been a fair bit of union bashing in this thread, I don't see any problem with having a bit of balance.
IAdoreYou
21-10-2007, 13:08
As an economist, I can say that unions are typcially 'bad' for economies. The world's most highly-unionised economies (such as parts of Europe) are some of the most rigid and slowest growing economies in the developed world. There is plenty of research to show that the higher the rate of unionisation, the slower the pace of productivity and generally higher unemployment, while lower unionisation lets the market forces of supply and demand occur unhindered, leading to more efficient outcomes and generally higher wages in the long run, despite what many claim. There will always be winners and losers with the reduction of union power, particularly unskilled workers, but an economy as a whole is almost always better off without them. Basic rights of course need to be protected.
I was just gonna lurk, but, that was a good read!!!!
:yes: Tradie Unions are CRAZY .. I used to work for a Building Company. Trades people are like "trucks" without them the country stops!
continue ...
Mamaduke
21-10-2007, 13:34
My personal experiences with unions have been;
I was in a car which was run off the road by union boofheads, who were bravely disguised in balaclavas, and then intimidated and threatened with baseball bats. Why you ask? Because we drove down the same road where they were picketing and didn't beep our horn!
I've seen the same union close an entire town down and my family lose their small business because of their ridiculous demands.
I've seen (literally odessa) the holes in people's walls/windows where unions have shot with rifles into their private homes for crossing a picket line.
I've seen a small close knit community absolutely divided by boofhead union leaders who came, destroyed everything in their wake, pitted neighbour against neighbour, closed down the town's major employer and then left the locals with nothing.
I, along with a lot of other employees had my hours cut by 20% in retail and when I approached my shop steward (who's hours weren't cut incidentally) I was told there was nothing that could be done.
I watched my husband come into our house on the first day of our first mortgage absolutely devastated and tell me that he no longer had a job and the union 'couldn't' help him.
It's astonishing how if the shop steward still has their job/hours and if there are no camera crews around the union just doesn't want to know you.
Was this all the same union Mamaduke? Same chapter, etc? Sounds like a bunch of bad apples to me, unionist or not. Unfortunately you encounter bullies and bad guys everywhere - at work (whether it be a shop steward or a corporate middle manager) Had I experienced anything negative in dealing with a union I would have contacted the ACTU quick smart.
our little treasures
21-10-2007, 14:51
Was this all the same union Mamaduke? Same chapter, etc? Sounds like a bunch of bad apples to me, unionist or not. Unfortunately you encounter bullies and bad guys everywhere - at work (whether it be a shop steward or a corporate middle manager) Had I experienced anything negative in dealing with a union I would have contacted the ACTU quick smart.
I agree. I can't believe how unions as a whole are all grouped together even though it is only a few bad seeds.:thumbsdown:
Mamaduke
21-10-2007, 15:52
Was this all the same union Mamaduke? Same chapter, etc? Sounds like a bunch of bad apples to me, unionist or not. Unfortunately you encounter bullies and bad guys everywhere - at work (whether it be a shop steward or a corporate middle manager) Had I experienced anything negative in dealing with a union I would have contacted the ACTU quick smart.
To me it really doesn't matter whether or not they're from the same sector because I think it's despicable from any group, and I will not accept that's it's okay for some to carry on in this manner, regardless of what it is they're fighting for.
The first examples of thuggery, intimidation and unlawfulness where from whatever union would be connected to an abattoir.
The next, where I had my hours cut were from the retail sector.
And the third, where DH lost his job was in the automotive industry.
I've had some a'hole bosses in my time but none have ever stooped to the levels of bullying or criminal conduct that I've encountered with union thugs...they wouldn't dare.
forbetoel
21-10-2007, 22:45
Good and bad in all walks of life, in every race, in every religious group etc,etc...bottom line, unions have done so much for so many people, and I just love it when someone doesn't want to join a union, then they have probs with the boss, and then go to the union with thier tail between thier legs. When people really need a union, they suddenly put their union bashing hat on the night stand. :thumbsdown:
Good and bad in all walks of life, in every race, in every religious group etc,etc...bottom line, unions have done so much for so many people, and I just love it when someone doesn't want to join a union, then they have probs with the boss, and then go to the union with thier tail between thier legs. When people really need a union, they suddenly put their union bashing hat on the night stand. :thumbsdown:
Sooooo true 4boys2love:thumbsup::yelclap::yes:
I really get the feeling in this thread that if you have a bad union story that its a lie or been seriously embellished and that reasons we give that we are 'against' unions are invalid?
Its unfair- just not "all' unions are bad- not "all' are good either.
forbetoel
21-10-2007, 23:13
I really get the feeling in this thread that if you have a bad union story that its a lie or been seriously embellished and that reasons we give that we are 'against' unions are invalid?
Its unfair- just not "all' unions are bad- not "all' are good either.
:wave: Hi Roopee, No that is not true. I have said that there will always be bad stories, and I don't see why anyone would bother making them up. Yes there are a few bad eggs, but the large majority are doing a great job!:thumbsup:
Mamaduke
21-10-2007, 23:38
Good and bad in all walks of life, in every race, in every religious group etc,etc...bottom line, unions have done so much for so many people, and I just love it when someone doesn't want to join a union, then they have probs with the boss, and then go to the union with thier tail between thier legs. When people really need a union, they suddenly put their union bashing hat on the night stand. :thumbsdown:
Judging by the comments in this thread quite a few of us are waiting for our 'so much for so many' from the unions.
There will never be a day that I will join a union again, and never would I stoop so low as to go to a union 'tail between my legs'.
My union bashing hat has been been firmly on my head since the day they ran me off the road and threatened to assault me, and there it will stay thanks.
I am sorry that I obviously offended you Pegasus, I just thought that it was another way of showing the readers of this thread what unions have actually done for the workers of Australia.
It seems that union-bashing is ok in this thread, but posting something that gave people something to think about isn't. :thumbsdown:
I wasn't saying I was offended- I said I enjoy the chaser - I definitely have a sense of humour.
What I objected to was the fact that it was posted with the tagline of - showing readers what unions have actually done for the workers of Australia, when I was merely pointing out that it was a satirical video, not one based in fact, so therefore was a misleading posting
As for me - I can honestly say that I'm with Mamaduke :eek:
Judging by the comments in this thread quite a few of us are waiting for our 'so much for so many' from the unions.
I think I'll be waiting with the others.
MummaBear03
22-10-2007, 07:19
Other workplaces are not. As a childcare worker I though I was fairy safe. Childcare workers are protected because there are so many new centres opening and not enough staff to run them, so the staff that are put on are very protected work-wise. The conditions are still not great though.
I mean we have about 5 hours of paperwork to do and we're not given the time to do it. But overall our wages are improving, we don't get overtime or penalty rates, but centres are not open nights or weekends where we live either. I didn't think to join a union until I worked for a company that was so bad it made it to A Current Affair.
She let her centres run down, staff were buying cleaning products so the centre was hygienic enough for kids, on top of that many of the workers were not getting paid. Many left. The young trainees doing their study through her were the ones who suffered the most. They couldn't leave, or they would have to pay back $2000 for the cost of the course. They couldn't stay there because they weren't getting paid. They were the ones who had their cheques constantly bounce. The unions were unable to do anything for them because they didn't have enough members. I've since joined a union just to make up numbers, and have encouraged most of my co-workers to do the same. Unions are only strong if they have the members to support them.
Get rid of Howard and his unfair IR Laws! My neighbour had his hours changed which meant that he was on LOWER pay, working MORE hours, he was put on to work until 7pm instead of 5pm and work weekends, with no extra pay. When he said he was unable to work those hours because his wife started work at 6:30pm at the local supermarket and also worked Saturday afternoons so he had to look after their 5 kids (they couldn't afford childcare for 5 kids) they cut his hours back to 15 hours a week and put someone else on. They couldn't fire him, it wouldn't have been fair or right but they could legally cut him back to 15 hours a week without any problems. With my company a person can be cut back to 12 hours a week and only given as much notice as being handed the roster the week before that. There's nothing you can do about it. But good workers are hard to come by in childcare, in fact any workers are hard to come by so it's rare for that to happen.
My neighbours have been hit hard by these IR laws, I've seen it first hand, so while they can still both work with his hours they are not able to make ends meet. She is looking for a job through the day to be the main bread winner now, while hubby tries to find evening/weekend work to get by on. I don't know how much use Unions would be to them, but I do know that this kind of unfair treatment wouldn't be allowed under the Rudd government. It is Labor themselves who made sure my pay was going in to my account each week while other people went hungry from their cheques bouncing.
It's time to go John Howard! Bring on Rudd!:fingerscrossed:
Does everyone think that Rudd can bring a magic wand and make it all better?
Just look at our labor states they are running pathetically, they can't even manage their funds for running hospitals properly and our education system is rubbish.
Unions like it or not have caused alot of problems for businesses and they do use bullying tactics i have seen it , i have experienced it.
To undermine peoples bad experiences with them is not on, like me saying that they don't have a place, they do.
I fear that once Rudd gets in Unions will have the upper hand and you know what it is going to effect you cause it could mean that you are out of a job or that employers are no longer hiring cause their businesses suffer.
Trade unions are absoloutley shocking and are under the impression that everything is their right and if you do not agree then they will make your life hell, their motto is that if you run a business your Rich, (they don't like it if you are well off) therefore they feel that they should have automatic rights because they are the working class poor, they have said this to my husband, their motto is bloody oath if we get something out of it why not he is rich!
WTH????? The rich work hard they have earned the right to be wealthy by making sacrifices, nobody should come in and take that away cause they haven't put in the hard yards themselves.
Trade unions that we have dealt with expect things to be handed to them on a silver platter.
How dare they stop workers on their way into their work place and forbid them to go into work, it is not their right! How dare they say that company has been blacklisted all because they did not give out movie tickets to their workers and as soon as they were given it was all okay.
I am only speaking about Trade unions not others i am sure they serve a good purpose just like the ANF which i am part of.
I dislike Trade Unions, i think they have got the worst work ethics.
rynosmum
22-10-2007, 08:57
Does everyone think that Rudd can bring a magic wand and make it all better?
Just look at our labor states they are running pathetically, they can't even manage their funds for running hospitals properly and our education system is rubbish.
Unions like it or not have caused alot of problems for businesses and they do use bullying tactics i have seen it , i have experienced it.
To undermine peoples bad experiences with them is not on, like me saying that they don't have a place, they do.
I fear that once Rudd gets in Unions will have the upper hand and you know what it is going to effect you cause it could mean that you are out of a job or that employers are no longer hiring cause their businesses suffer.
Trade unions are absoloutley shocking and are under the impression that everything is their right and if you do not agree then they will make your life hell, their motto is that if you run a business your Rich, (they don't like it if you are well off) therefore they feel that they should have automatic rights because they are the working class poor, they have said this to my husband, their motto is bloody oath if we get something out of it why not he is rich!
WTH????? The rich work hard they have earned the right to be wealthy by making sacrifices, nobody should come in and take that away cause they haven't put in the hard yards themselves.
Trade unions that we have dealt with expect things to be handed to them on a silver platter.
How dare they stop workers on their way into their work place and forbid them to go into work, it is not their right! How dare they say that company has been blacklisted all because they did not give out movie tickets to their workers and as soon as they were given it was all okay.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
It continually astounds me how small business owners and those on higher wages are sneered at by many left wing supporters. Why should they be taxed higher? Why should they not be able to run their businesses with staff who wish to work for them?
Tall poppy syndrome at its best:no:
SalTheGal
22-10-2007, 08:59
Couldn't have said it better myself.
It continually astounds me how small business owners and those on higher wages are sneered at by many left wing supporters. Why should they be taxed higher? Why should they not be able to run their businesses with staff who wish to work for them?
Tall poppy syndrome at its best:no:
:yes: :yes: :yes:
I feared The Liberal party getting voted in each and every time it happened, and for very good reason. Just look at these clowns running the show. Their reaction to 70% of the labour party being unionists is baffeling to me.
I cant wait until they finally get voted out. Stifleing the democratic fundamentals that my grandfathers fought for is not on:thumbsdown: BOO to the Liberal Party.
Mamaduke
22-10-2007, 09:10
I feared The Liberal party getting voted in each and every time it happened, and for very good reason. Just look at these clowns running the show. Their reaction to 70% of the labour party being unionists is baffeling to me.
I cant wait until they finally get voted out. Stifleing the democratic fundamentals that my grandfathers fought for is not on:thumbsdown: BOO to the Liberal Party.
Now now now...
this is the 'what's wrong with unions' thread, you have more than your fair share of 'Liberal bashing' threads to keep you entertained! :shame:
forbetoel
22-10-2007, 09:27
I fear that once Rudd gets in Unions will have the upper hand and you know what it is going to effect you cause it could mean that you are out of a job or that employers are no longer hiring cause their businesses suffer.
.
Interesting choice of words. "I fear" it seems everything from the liberal party and their supporters is based on fear.:thumbsdown: I am not voting with the Liberal Parties crystal ball in mind.:no:
rynosmum
22-10-2007, 10:56
Interesting choice of words. "I fear" it seems everything from the liberal party and their supporters is based on fear.:thumbsdown: I am not voting with the Liberal Parties crystal ball in mind.:no:
Are you entirely sure that it's just a Liberal party thing? Didn't Mr Rudd start a comment last night asking if we could 'trust' the Liberal party?
Honestly, there is not one political party that will suit the needs of all of us, that's why we have choice. It's fun to debate it but it really comes down to which one suits us the best - and I guess we'll find out the wishes of Australia as a whole soon enough.:yes:
forbetoel
22-10-2007, 11:14
Are you entirely sure that it's just a Liberal party thing? Didn't Mr Rudd start a comment last night asking if we could 'trust' the Liberal party?
Yes Rudd did say that, and he was basing it on past experience, actual fact. The Howard government have lied, backflipped and snuck in policy after policy under our noses, so I think that asking if we can put our trust in the liberal party once again, is a very valid point, and quite different from imagining what might happen, and fearing policies and situations that have not even occured yet. :) And yes I agree it is fun to debate, and have not meant anything hurtful to anyone, I just really dislike scare tactics, on what 'might' happen. It would make more sense to base an argument on what John Howard has already done for the country, why he should be re elected, rather than to bring scare tactics on what a Labor pary 'could' bring. :)
4boys2love you have hit the nail on the head:thumbsup: and if you look to the states they have done a very similar thing (maybe thats where JH got the Idea) good on you :yes:
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