cutting ok for religious reasons?

[sara-jayne]

i realise this in the anti-circ section so if i need to be moved fair enough.

i am not so much pro-circ as i am pro-choice, i think everyone will do what they think is best for their child and if i have a son i will have him circumcised.
anyway im not here to defend circumcision.

i was wondering what anti-circ supporters think of people having their sons cut for religious reasons?
is circumcision more acceptable if it is done because of a religious belief or do you think that people should put aside what their faith teaches them and make the decision based on medical studies and statistics and things like that

it is pure curiosity on my part. im not attacking or defending either choice, i am just wondering if people who are normally against circ. consider it more acceptable in some circumstances.

for example, is it as ok to cut for religious reasons as it is to cut, say, because of an infection.

as i said im not here to defend or support im just curious.
i respect and support you right to choose what is best for your sons and i admire the fact that your decisions seem well thought out.

sorry it is a bit long-winded, i was trying really hard to word it so i didnt insult anyone.

[Milliner]

There was a similar thread here (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=122997) a short time ago.

I am very ANTI circ, the only reason that I would ever accept circumcision is if absolutely necessary for medical reasons. Even then I would get a 2nd, 3rd, 4th opinion before I would go cutting off perfectly healthy skin.

I don’t think that any circumcision should be performed apart from the reason above.

[SassyMummy]

I made a thread about this a while back...because I'm anti-circ, and while I'm STILL anti-circ when the reason behind it is religion, I'm not AS outraged by it. After all, if I had complete faith in my religion (I'm an athiest, but if I WAS religious), I would probably want to follow it strictly as well.

MotherNurture posted somewhere in this circumcision section recently about Jews going against their religious custom by NOT circumcising.

I think that's a very positive move. I think circumcision would be a very tiny part of any religion, and I don't think the "god" being worshiped would worry too much if you didn't do it. After all, why would a god create man with a foreskin if all he wanted was for it be cut off later? (That's someone else's thought, but I thought it was a good point).

Same as homosexuals are catholics really... I don't see why they can't believe just because of an insignifigant detail...

Here's a link to the thread I mentioned... http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=122997

[Milliner]

There is also an entire website dedicated to Jews against circumcision.

Click here (http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/)

AND this (http://www.muslimsagainstcircumcision.org/)one is Muslims agains circumcision

[Beany]

I am sympathetic to the reasons for religious circumcision but do believe it is unnecessary and a relic of a tribal past.

Female circumcision is frequently performed in the name of religion yet society has by and large moved past excusing that atrocity. I feel exactly the same way about routine infant male circumcision.

[the_queen]

Beany, you Meatloaf'd me.

I was going to say that just because FGM is performed in the name of religion doesn't make it OK.


There are heaps of Gospel texts which indicate that circumcision (that God ordered the Israelites to do to their sons) is not necessary as a Christian. Jesus is the new covenant - no need to sacrifice animals, separate your meat products, or slice off foreskins any more.

[bunintheoven12]

No, absolutley not. Religion should not make it more acceptable to do this procedure to males.

I have a son to a Jewish man and the fights we had regarding this decision were unbelieable. I came away with my son intact allowing him to choose what happens to his body and a belief that Jews are completely brainwashed about this practice. I have no respect for my partner's religion anymore. I am so proud of the Jewish people who are going against what they are told and leaving their sons intact. The website for Jews against circumcision is amazing. I truly repsect anyone who stands up against this practice and does the right thing for their sons.

[shed]

oh look, to be honest I don't really know what I think. The main thing I don't like is people who circ to make their baby look like their father and due to it supposedly looking nicer.

They are the reasons that I find appalling. I just find it really stupid, I am sorry, i can't help it.

Those that do it due to cultural pressure or religious pressure I feel sorry for but I don't really know what I think further than that. There is not as much judgement there that's for sure.

There is ALOT of empathy for those mothers who have had it done to their babies and now feel remorseful and regretful. My heart goes out to them. Motherguilt is a hard taskmaster.

I just can't stand ignorance and there is a lot of it, but that doesn't mean that everyone is like that. People have their own reasons, friends of ours were considering it for their little boy. Other friends did have it done because the father overheard some girls talking about penises once and they said how ugly the uncirced penis was. I couldn't express how I felt about that, I just went "hmm" and left it at that. I felt disgusted and still think they are a bit ignorant, and they were good friends before that. Before I had my baby I wouldn't have given it much thought, but I honestly wonder how any mother can let someone do that to her precious perfect innocent baby.

When I had my little boy I realised that no one would be coming anywhere near him to cause any unnecessary pain whatsoever, and you can't tell me that having your foreskin removed isn't painful. I don't believe it.

So anyway, that's my thoughts, its all a bit muddled, and that's because my thoughts on it are all over the place.

[PaperTiger]

is circumcision more acceptable if it is done because of a religious belief

No, it is not more acceptable. Nothing can take away the fact that this procedure is hurting perfect, tiny little babies. There can be no justification for it whatsoever in my mind.


do you think that people should put aside what their faith teaches them and make the decision based on medical studies and statistics and things like that


Yes I do, absolutely.

[Ashleigh<3]

i was wondering what anti-circ supporters think of people having their sons cut for religious reasons?I think they need to do a lot of research so they can understand exactly WHY the religion condoned it initially.
It would be very silly of them to use the excuse, "we circumcise for religious reasons", without any knowledge as to why or how it begun.


Jewish circumcision:


The religious origin of the Jewish practice of circumcision is written in the Torah where God promised Abraham,
I will make you exceedingly fertile, and make nations of you, and kings shall come forth from you. . . . I assign the land you sojourn in to you and your offspring to come, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting holding. I will be their God. . . . Such shall be the covenant between Me and you and your offspring to follow which you shall keep: every male among you shall be circumcised. (Genesis 17:6,8,10) Over the centuries there has been much written by Jewish scholars about the importance of circumcision. Support for circumcision in the Jewish community today is widespread. There is another perspective on circumcision that is not openly discussed. Contrary to common belief, circumcision has not always been practiced. Moses failed to circumcise his son (Exodus 4:25), and circumcision was totally neglected during the forty-year period in the wilderness (Joshua 5:5). Some Jews in the Hellenistic period (circa 300 b.c.e.-100 c.e.) chose not to circumcise their sons in an attempt to gain public acceptance.1 (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/#1) During the Reform movement in Germany in the 1840s, some parents did not circumcise their sons. Theodor Herzl was one of the most prominent figures who did not circumcise his son, who was born in 1891.2 (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/#2) Currently, circumcision is not universal among Jews either inside or outside the United States. The Circumcision Resource Center, a nonprofit educational organization, knows of hundreds of Jews in Europe, South America, and in the United States who either have not or would not circumcise a son. Even in Israel some Jews do not circumcise, and there is an organization that publicly opposes circumcision.3 (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/#3) The purpose of this article is to coherently explain a few of the contemporary reasons for the increasing doubts some Jews have about circumcision. Then I will apply Torah law and Jewish values to these reasons.
According to the Council of Jewish Federations 1990 National Jewish Population Survey, "ninety percent define being Jewish as being a member of a cultural or ethnic group."4 (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/#4)5 (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/#5) Therefore, I address my comments particularly to those who reform Jewish practice in a way that is meaningful to them. Non-traditional Jews generally evaluate an idea by its agreement with reason and experience. Reform Jews comprise a large proportion of this group. Eugene Borowitz, noted theologian and scholar, states that Reform Jews "believe that we serve God best by being true to our minds and consciences even where, in significant matters, they clash with our heritage."6 (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/#6) Based on the survey, a high proportion of American Jews have this perspective. Only thirteen percent believe "the Torah is the actual word of God."
So if only thirteen percent of Jews believe the Torah is word of god, it makes you wonder why so many jewish families still insist on circumcising their sons.


Muslim circumcision:



Muslim circumcision practices:
Although most Muslim fathers want – insist –that their sons should "look the same" as them, Islam does not impose an obligation on parents to circumcise their children. Furthermore, its recommendations about circumcision apply to women as much as men. The Koran, the Moslem bible, makes no mention of circumcision at all, but the prophet Mohammed is reported to have stated that "Circumcision is a sunnah for the men and a makrumah for the women". (Note the reference to men and women: nothing about boys and girls.) The term sunnah means customary or traditional; the term makrumah means meritorious. The most you could conclude is that circumcision was customary for men and meritorious for women, and thus desirable for both but obligatory for neither.
In these respects Islam is quite different from Judaism, which requires the head of the household not only to circumcise his baby sons at eight days, but also his male servants and employees, which makes no mention of women in this context, and in which the rule of circumcision is stated prominently in the first book of the Jewish bible.
Circumcision is not one of the Five Pillars of the Faith, which consist of: daily prayer, the profession of faith, the giving of alms, fasting at Ramadan, and the pilgrimage to Mecca. Mohammed laid down five further rules for Moslem men, but they did not include circumcising their children: shaving the pubic hair; circumcision; trimming the moustache; plucking the hairs from the armpits; and clipping the nails. These constitute the fitrah, or laws of personal deportment, to which a pious man in pursuit of perfection must conform. According to Sami Aldeeb, "They are not compulsory, but simply advisable". The vital point about this list is that circumcision is a recommendation for adult men, perhaps no more important than trimming their moustache or shaving their pubic hair. It is thus less obligatory than the rule of prayer at least once a week, the pilgrimage to Mecca, fasting at Ramadan or abstention from alcohol and pork. There is certainly nothing in the fitrah which requires a father to circumcise his children.
There is no unanimity among Islamic theologians as to whether Mohammed himself was circumcised and how it happened. Some say that he was born without a foreskin, others that he was circumcised by an angel or his grandfather.


And again, more muslims circumcise when it was never mandatory.

[MotherNurture]

A child circumcised for religious reasons is just as healthy and nonconsenting as one circumcised to 'match dad'. Many parents circumcise for cosmetic reasons, because they *believe* it looks better. Religious parents may circumcise because they *believe* it's a requirement of their faith. Either way, they don't know what their child will believe or prefer, and are forcing their beliefs on him permanently in a painful, incredibly intimate way. If an adult wants to sacrifice part of their sex organ(s) as an expression of faith, more power to them---their body, their choice. A baby has no choice or comprehension of the spiritual significance of such an act. Also keep in mind that some Muslim sects believe in circumcising little girls, yet FGM has been widely banned. Boys deserve the same respect, consideration, and protection. Beliefs should be gently, lovingly, respectfully instilled...not carved into flesh.

JMO,

Jen

[Blueberry Crumble]

No- I dont believe that circing for religious reasons is acceptable.

People who circ for religious reasons are either pressured into it or completely brainwashed that it is the right thing to do.

[andrewJ]

i am also pro choice, pro MY choice about MY body.

No baby has religious beliefs.

[andrewJ]

to answer your question of whether people should in some situations be expected to put aside what their faith teaches them, i believe that the answer is yes.

circumcision is simply one of the countless old testament rules that any modern society can and must expect people to ignore including....

the stoning to death of non virgin brides

killing children who curse their parents

the buying of slaves -"You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance." (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)"[/I]

the list goes on and on and on and on

[mooter]

I think I am going to go against the grain here. Both my sons are cirumcised because I chose to have them done. Not for religious reason but because I had a friend who needed to be done at sixteen and the horror he went through was incredible. Still 15 years later he has sexual hang ups and problems because of what he had to go through.

When I was pregnant with son number one, I had a wonderful dr, who suggested I have it done, as we live on the gold coast with constant humid and sticky weather, he also advised me that a seven year old is not going to want his mum to check that his foreskin is cleaned properly. I did some reasearch on penile cancer and made my decision. DS1 cried for less than a minute and it was done quickly and humanely. I prayed while pregnant with ds2 number two that the DR who performed DS1 would not die before he was born as the dr was quite old and I didn't know where else I would go.

DS2 did not even cry. Some say its a good idea, some say its bad. I will never regret the decision I made for my boys.

I have three nephews who are not done, who have constant urinary infections, I have no way of knowing whether this has anything to do with circumcision or not. However I am happy with my decision. And yes my boys are in the minority, however I can assure you, a lot of people still have it done. They day mine where done they were booked out every fifteen minutes all day.

[pookiesossige]

There are heaps of Gospel texts which indicate that circumcision (that God ordered the Israelites to do to their sons) is not necessary as a Christian. Jesus is the new covenant - no need to sacrifice animals, separate your meat products, or slice off foreskins any more.

Yep, this is what I believe- as a Christian I actually view circumcision as something entirely against God's wishes and against His idea of how I should care for my son. I have no right to have my son circumcised for non-medical reasons, and my interpretation of His word leads me to believe that God does not ask Christians to cause their precious sons such unecessary pain and suffering through having their genitals modified.

[NeilR]

to answer your question of whether people should in some situations be expected to put aside what their faith teaches them, i believe that the answer is yes.

circumcision is simply one of the countless old testament rules that any modern society can and must expect people to ignore including....

the stoning to death of non virgin brides

killing children who curse their parents

the buying of slaves -"You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance." (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)"[/i]

the list goes on and on and on and on


Frankly after formally studying new/old testament for a few years I would suggest that the new testament is somewhat more befuddling and equally requires items to be removed via your premise.
The primary misunderstanding of many who read both is that they take the text out of historical context and disregard the texts as a whole, instead treating each singular passage as an item to decode. The issues regarding circumcision in the old testament should be taken in context of the living conditions, the teaching/societal habits of the community and the fact that the old testament was intended to be partly allegorical and partly historical.
WRT some of the above, everyone should be cautios in categorising a community as homoginous, particularly the 'Jews' as no doubt there are many different opinions throughout this community...from what little I know 'tradition' plays an equal part to faith...a central facet of which is carried over so well to Christian churches.

[Baby Girl]

Here is a thought for those who circumcise for religious reasons...

Why would (God, Allah, Buddha) <insert idol here> create little boys with foreskins if it was intended that they were not to have one? Same question (with obvious changes) in relation to female circ?

Just a thought.....

[AquaDevil78]

I don't believe circ is reasonable in any circumstance or reason except medical. :no:

Like previous poster pointed out, you are born with these bits for a reason are you not?

[Ashleigh<3]

Good points from the above posters.

We are also born with an appendix, something that if becomes infected and bursts, has a high percentage of fatality.

Why don't we remove our appendix at birth?

[Ashleigh<3]

I have three nephews who are not done, who have constant urinary infections, I have no way of knowing whether this has anything to do with circumcision or not. However I am happy with my decision. And yes my boys are in the minority, however I can assure you, a lot of people still have it done. They day mine where done they were booked out every fifteen minutes all day.




It's not about waiting list priority.
That should not be a reason why people go and get their kids circumcised, because a lot of people still have the procedure done.

More people, DON'T have their kids circumcised.

Btw, there are plenty of kids who don't have constant urinary tract infections and are intact. :thumbsup:

[andrewJ]

from what little I know 'tradition' plays an equal part to faith...a central facet of which is carried over so well to Christian churches.

...and tradition is even less reason to circumcise than faith.

i am circumcised because my parents are jewish, not because they believe that god wants them to circumcise me, but because they think that it is just what jews do. I do not consider myself jewish, and i resent the (personal!?) decision that they made.

A genuine belief is more understandable than simply following the crowd.

[NeilR]

Here is a thought for those who circumcise for religious reasons...

Why would (God, Allah, Buddha) <insert idol here> create little boys with foreskins if it was intended that they were not to have one? Same question (with obvious changes) in relation to female circ?

Just a thought.....


Religion and faith are not necessarily the same thing. For some religion is a tool, a banner, an identity, a status or for others a weapon.
You are asking for logic and introspection , which for some who follow different religions is actively discouraged...a reason I stopped being a 'christian' as such.
However my concern with this topic and the expression of opinions is well done in another thread and is in no way deminished. Were we to use such tools as logic etc on such an area of rights and parenting we should follow that logic to it's obvious conclusion and look at the areas that cause most 'damage' to a child and thereby look at the full role of parents.

[NeilR]

[quote=andrewJ;2037900A genuine belief is more understandable than simply following the crowd.[/quote]


I agree, however I might suggest that such a thing is rare in all religion.

[forbetoel]

I would say yes, as the parents I would assume would be making the decision based on things they greatly believe in.

[NeilR]

I have a son to a Jewish man and the fights we had regarding this decision were unbelieable. I came away with my son intact allowing him to choose what happens to his body and a belief that Jews are completely brainwashed about this practice. I have no respect for my partner's religion anymore.

I am saddened that you would tar a whole community because of the views of one person.