control crying almost there

[amy densley]

hey guys,i have been control crying my 8mth old son because he is a terrible sleeper and i was always rocking him to sleep in my arms ,i have been letting him cry for up to 5-10mins at the most and he gets hysterical so i go in dont pick him up ,and put my hand firemly on his arm and slightly rock him he goes off to sleep after about two attempts but i just cant get to the part where he cries him self to sleep will he eventually just learn that it is sleep time or will i have to just let him cry for longer im almost there so what next?

[rynosmum]

I had to leave my little one to cry himself to sleep. Once he is crying more calmly (if that makes sense), I would leave him and only come back if his crying escalated.

Within a couple of nights, the crying pretty much went.

He is now a happy sleeper !:D

[mummy sam]

Ok so i know what i'm about to say is going to sound bad but my MCHN said to leave him to cry for anything up to an hour. Now i was the same as you with having to rock bub of to sleep and then make sure he was sound asleep b4 putting him into bed.
The first time i left him he cried for 30mins, then was sound asleep. The next 5 mins then 2 mins. Now not at all. That is unless he is over tired and he may cry for 5 to 10.
Oh and the longest time he did cry was 40 mins and it was for his final bedtime. He did that a couples of night. I just made sure i had something to do like cook dinner or the washing up something anything.

Harsh but it worked within a couple of day/nights. I feel like a new woman :D

[pigeon~pair]

Hi,

I know it is soooo difficult to hear your little one cry.

I tend to do a varied version of CC. I leave my little one in his cot for anything up to 40 minutes. If he is just having a small cry I don't bother going to his room (unless of course I can tell it's just a "pop the dummy in and walk away" epiosode!), on the other hand if he is really "distressed" I go in give him his dummy, a small reassuring hand on the shoulder, a kiss on the forehead and a whispered "mummy loves you" and walk out.

You really will find if you do stick to it (and I don't doubt how heart breaking it is) it will work.

Be strong

Nicole

[JanetF]

I assume when you mamas were choosing to do this that you read the recommendations of the Australian Association for Infant Mental Health which is affiliated with the World Association for Infant Mental Health?
www.aaimhi.org
Position Paper 1: Controlled Crying
Issued November 2002; Revised March 2004
AAIMHI - Controlled Crying Principles

You can read it at their website above.

[rynosmum]

I assume when you mamas were choosing to do this that you read the recommendations of the Australian Association for Infant Mental Health which is affiliated with the World Association for Infant Mental Health?


Janet, I guess we all do what works for us and works for our bubs. After 3 nights, my DS was sleeping soundly. I would still be up for middle of the night feeds but he would then immediately self-settle again. He is now 20 months old. Loves his bedtime routine, loves his family and certainly shows no negative effects from his experience.

As the article you suggest indicates:

There have been no studies such as sleep laboratory studies, to our knowledge, that assess the physiological stress levels of infants who undergo controlled crying, or its emotional or psychological impact on the developing child. which basically forfeit it's validity IMO.

My son went through controlled crying/comforting and it was highly successful. Therefore, IMO, the proof wins !:)

[Goosie22]

A while ago a mother posted something about Controlled Crying and she said "the baby soon learnt it wasn't worth the effort to cry anymore" That made me :crying: .

I can't understand why it is so difficult to tend to your babies needs?

G:confused:

[rynosmum]

Goosie, my little boy is my world and I more than tend to his every need, as I imagine that most, if not all, of the women on this site do with their own babies and children.

All babies are individuals and therefore react differently in different circumstances.

I don't condone leaving a baby to cry for hours on end, or physical punishment or leaving a baby in a state of distress.

What I DO believe in is the benefit even to a child of learning how to self-settle. My son sleeps incredibly well - 12 hours per night, and has since he was 6 months old. If he awakens in the middle of the night, I will go to him. If he wants to be cuddled for a couple of hours, I will happily do that too. But the thing is, he knows how to self settle so he sleeps well and deeply and he is a well rested happy boy because of that.

He learnt early on that when he went to sleep, I wasn't in the room with him so when he then woke up, he didn't expect me to be there - he was exactly where he expected to be and therefore he would go straight back to sleep.

Prior to him learning to self settle, I would B/F him to sleep then put him in his cot. When he woke up, of course I was gone and he was somewhere different and he was really quite scared.

Some babies take to this method very well. Some don't - it honestly won't work for all. That said, if you haven't witnessed the method and a successful ongoing result, how can you make comment ?

Just as I wouldn't dare make comment on your mothering skills as I haven't ever walked in your shoes, I don't feel it's appropriate for you to do so either.

[JanetF]

I really feel for you, Amy. Your instincts to want to comfort your crying child are perfectly fine but we live in a world which has decided that crying babies are bad and should not be parented. You have so many other options open to you which will not damage your child's wellbeing in the short or longterm. Parenting books are now being written to help young children recover from the loss of trust and security that being left to cry causes. Even Ferber who invented CC says he doesn't think it's a one size fits all method and Dr Sears says if it doesn't work immediately, do something else rather than persist with something that clearly distresses your baby. Your baby doesn't even have object permanence yet so he has no idea that if you leave the room you can come back. To him, once you're out of sight you are no longer anywhere in his world so no wonder he cries, right? I don't think you're a bad mama, I think you're an unsupported mama being given bad but currently popular information. You know in your heart it's not working, or you wouldn't post as you have. It's ok to give your child what he needs.

As the position paper states,


It is normal and healthy for infants and young
children not to sleep through the night and to need
attention from parents. This should not be labeled a
disorder except where it is clearly outside the usual
patterns.
Parents should be reassured that attending to their
infant’s needs/crying will not cause a lasting “habit”.
Waking in older infants and young children may be
due to separation anxiety, and in these cases
sleeping with or next to a parent is a valid option.
This often enables all to get a good night’s sleep.
Any methods used to assist parents to get a good
night’s sleep should not compromise the infant’s
developmental and emotional needs.

So in parenting your child, you are clearly attending appropriately to his needs as he is expressing them. How can that be wrong? We know from studies on neglected children that leaving them to cry is dangerous and damaging even if we don't yet have sleep trainers who put the courage of the their convictions before their wallets and truly study the outcomes over long periods on the children who are treated this way. We also have studies done over long periods of time showing how cosleeping children are happier and have better self esteem than those who sleep without their parents. I don't understand the "if it works it's ok" idea since I don't see how leaving a young child alone who clearly needs you is ok and is working in any sense. We shouldn't have to feel that parenting involves leaving our hearts and instincts at the bedroom door or that parenting is over once the sun goes down. I hope you find support, Amy, to parent in a way that nurtures both you and your son. He will only be so tiny for such a short time and every loving act you perform for him will only help build him into a loving and strong man.

[rynosmum]

....we live in a world which has decided that crying babies are bad and should not be parented

I'm not sure which world you come from, but I certainly have never seen or heard this.

Amy is parenting her child and as part of great parenting, she is asking questions. I've searched and searched and can't find anywhere where any baby here has been defined as 'bad' for crying.

Amy, best of luck with continuing the sleep routine. No matter what you do, you can't please everyone but you can do what works the best for you and your baby. Search some of the older threads and there are some great success stories on derivatives on controlled comforting (try the pro controlled-crying thread). They are from ladies on this forum and are backed by the proof of happy kids and great sleepers. None of them are in rehab to try to recover from their issues. The Mental Health document states that no studies have been done to prove their outcome - so no proof there.

Best of luck with your little man !:D

I've said my piece on the matter so will leave this thread intact.:banghead:

[draught]

Well said Rynosmum.

As always there is a fine line between providing information and judging a parent. Let's be careful to stay on the side of providing options and not judgement.

[jembelina]

Hi Amy,

Firstly let me just say, for future questions post in teh pro controlled crying section as youa re likey to receive more support and help there!!! We did cc with ds with success. It is hard but imo, for my family worth it. When you go in to comfort bub, try leaving beore he falls asleep, but is calm. feel free to pm me if you need any advice or support! :)

[Rahmi'sMum]

I think that we tend to follow books and advice when parenting rather than using instinct. My instincts would never allow me to let my baby cry, no matter what any "sleep clinic", experienced mother or book recommends. My boy wakes every 3 hours, and is sometimes up for an hour or more in the middle of the night. But, I'm a mum, I expected the first few years to be sleep deprived if need be, his needs are priority, I'm an adult - I can deal with it, and catch up on sleep when the opportunity presents itself.

[Rhys'Mum]

I'd like to offer a slightly different perspective, but I think it probably applies in many of our cases.

I have used CC with my son. I didn't want to, I didn't like it, it is probably the hardest thing i have ever done and it was successful. But the thing is while it was hard for me to leave him to cry and not try to sooth him constantly all attempts at soothing were failing anyway. My little man was crying (hard, hysterical, continuous and frequent) because he was tired. Me rocking, feeding, singing, patting, laying down with him, cuddling,you name it.. did nothing to help. If he managed to drop off he woke almost immediately even if I hadn't stopped whatever it was I was doing. He needed sleep but desperately wanted to be awake and had the will do to so.

We rarely have issues with sleeping now, my son is much happier, no longer overtired and sleep deprived. For us cc was a valid part of the process. We also returned to wrapping, darkened his room, have a very fixed sleep ritual and introduced what was initially a pretty inflexible prectictable routine (now more flexible and largely driven by him).

I don't think it is necessary or the solution for everyone. I think there are a lot of things we can and do try before we get to that point. It is good to look at the alternatives and to seroiusly consider the age of the baby, the reasonableness and the possible impact. But if your really feel it might be the right thing for you then know that there are others who will not judge you because we have walked that hard path ourselves.

[Rahmi'sMum]

RhysMum, I wouldn't be judgmental about that at all, as I said, I think mothers should try and follow their instincts - and to me it sounds like you did exactly that, you weren't trying to have peace and quiet, or trying to benefit yourself, or listening to what others were telling you. You felt that your bub wouldn't get a good sleep any other way (after trying to do all the normal comfort things). Unfortunately that's not why a lot of people do it.

[Sarie]

we cc'd both our boys and the both sleep through the night, with the exception of being sick, teething or nightmares.

[Nan]

Good on you Amy! My hubby and I are pro CC too. If you feel it is working then keep it up. You have my support. Our beautiful daughter first slept through the night at 4 weeks of age! Woohoo! She didn't do it consistently for another few weeks, but after seeing the 'proof in the pudding' (eg a three month old who is HAPPY, VERY HEALTHY & sleeps 10-11 hours straight every night) we would never go back.

No, I don't feel I have love starved my child, nor does she look love starved. She (hubby too!) is my world and she has very cleverly taught herself how to settle. I am very proud of my angel. :yelclap:

People who aren't pro CC please don't patronise us with your subtly judgmental comments and research articles about children who are NOT OURS!! The fact is - this method works for our children and us.

My only question to non CC users would be, why offer us research or your opinions instead of your supoort? Is it to make yourselves feel better or us? Sorry if I sound rude but I strongly suspect the latter.

Love,
Nan. xx

[Goosie22]

just a question Nan, did you do Controlled Crying to your baby at 4 weeks old?

[Sarie]

Both my boys slept through the night from 3 weeks and 7weeks respectively, not cc'd they cut out the midnight feed on their own.

[jarrahsmumma]

Nan I am genuinely not having a go at anyone in saying this, but speaking for myself, I *truly* beleive that CC is not a good thing. So if I make comments, I am not having a go at individual people, but at the CC movement. I feel sorry that people get to a stage that they feel there is no solution but to leave their darling child to cry. So inshort, I would never put you down as an individual, even though I think CC is wrong, but I am sooo sorry that that idiot ever thought such a stupidity up. And I will never give support to people in CC, I will always offer gentle alternatives.

[Nan]

Nan I am genuinely not having a go at anyone in saying this, but speaking for myself, I *truly* beleive that CC is not a good thing. So if I make comments, I am not having a go at individual people, but at the CC movement. I feel sorry that people get to a stage that they feel there is no solution but to leave their darling child to cry....

Thanks for not having a go! I appreciate that. I must say, most of us don't actually feel that there is no other solution. We know there is other stuff out there, but we CHOOSE this method and it works! It gets a lot of bad press, but let me be the one to say that I don't let my DD scream. Heck, no! If she's hungry, I feed her....dirty I change her.....needs a hug, she gets one. But I do sometimes let her cry for a few minutes and she is turning out just fine. In fact, very happy....I get heaps of positive comments about her pleasant demeanour (sp?)

Hi Goosie - yes, my DH and I started at about 2.5 weeks and it really only took Eden a few nights and now I don't have to do much to settle her at all. If it didn't work for me, trust me...I would do domething else!

nel - you said you only offer gentle alternatives and I believe you! Its just that when they are not asked for I feel disrespected.

Love,
Nan. xx

[lovemybub]

I think we can see from this thread why there is a separate forum for controlled crying issues...

[Rahmi'sMum]

2 and 1/2 weeks. How sad.

[the_queen]

my DH and I started at about 2.5 weeks and it really only took Eden a few nights and now I don't have to do much to settle her at all.

How sad for Eden. That's called Learned Helplessness.

http://www.pinky-mychild.com/features/baby/tears.html

Although the experts are divided on sleep training techniques, most would agree that leaving a newborn like Billy to cry is inappropriate. There is also increasing evidence that deliberately leaving babies to cry can have detrimental effects. A policy statement issued by the Australian Association of Infant Mental Health (AIMHI) advises that, “Controlled crying is not consistent with what infants need for their optimal emotional and psychological health, and may have unintended negative consequences.”

According to research by U.S Neuro-biologist and trauma specialist, Bruce Perry, when being left to cry it out ‘succeeds’ in getting a baby to fall asleep alone, it is due to a process Perry calls the ‘defeat response’. Normally when humans feel threatened our bodies flood with stress hormones and we go into fight or flight. However, babies can’t fight and they can’t flee, so they communicate their distress by crying. When infant cries are ignored, this distress elicits a ‘freeze’ or ‘defeat’ response and the infant shuts down (and sleeps).

A number of studies demonstrate that these elevated stress levels in infants may cause changes in the physiology of the developing brain. In particular, by permanently shaping the stress responses in the brain, which then affect memory, attention, and emotion. The saddest risk though, is that as the baby tries to communicate in the only way available to him, he will learn a much crueller lesson –that he cannot make a difference, so what is the point of reaching out. This is learned helplessness.

[draught]

Okay - we have stepped back over the line of judgement versus help here.
If you read through this thread you will see that this article (which is quoted regularly on this site) has already been posted, and the responses that are usually posted (no studies to support this supposition etc) have been posted.

I don't agree with using controlled crying on children under 6 months but I also don't agree with judging other parents for their decisions and making them feel bad. So on that note I think it is time to close this thread.

Amy - if you are still looking for support or answers for your own situation please feel free to post again - if you are still interested in pursuing the controlled crying option can I suggest that you post in the pro-controlled crying thread.

Thank you all for your input.