WATCH: 60 Minutes: Separated at Birth (free, online)

[MotherNurture]

Here's the link:

http://www.tv3.co.nz/VideoBrowseAll/60MinutesVideo/tabid/371/articleID/35417/Default.aspx?articleID=35417

Discuss...

Jen

[meme]

i think i am already on the same page as you on this issue jen

i am at tears over the horrible mess of that baby's penis.

and angry that someone thinks that because it is easier to circ at birth it should be done. didn't he hear those cries and understand that's a little person lying there, born and relying on adults to keep him safe from harm.

while in general i fully respect everyones decisions as personal decisions. i could not believe how that mother could stand there so quietly and watch her baby boy cry in pain and confusion.

my children are not circumsized. and while i have been laughed at before for making that comment, because they are girls, i think it a justified comment, and am glad i'm not alone in thinking so .

( usually i stay well alone from this area though. i hope my comments aren't offensive to anyone)

[MotherNurture]

meme,

Thank you for your post and sharing your thoughts. Yes, I do think we're both on the same page. That babies are continually subjected to this procedure unnecessarily breaks my heart. They are so innocent, trusting, vulnerable and the decision to circumcise is frequently a selfish one on the part of the parents...meaning, it's done because of their personal cosmetic preferences, because dad's circumcised, because they are concerned about explaining the differences or potty training when he gets a little older, etc. The reality is, this is a decision that *can* (and IMO, should) wait until he's old enough to fully understand the implications and have a say in the matter. It's not unusual for a circumcising parent to admit that if it's not done while he's young, helpless, and fully dependent it'll never get done because few adult men would allow someone to cut part of their penis off unless the circumstances were dire and it was truly medically indicated. IMO, that's saying an awful lot.

I liked that they interviewed the parents of the baby being circumcised...it was clearly cultural, clearly cosmetic. The dad talked about being Samoan and circumcision being more "manly" and they were clearly not fully informed on the hygiene issue; circumcised penises being "cleaner" is a myth. It made me sad because I truly believe if they were truly informed about the anatomy & physiology of an intact penis, the nerves in the foreskin, the way it protects the head and it's gliding functions during intercourse...as well as how incredibly easy it is to care for an intact penis and that the chance of him ever needing to be circumcised for medical reasons was 1%...and the complication rates, they might of chosen differently and that little bub would have been spared.

Jen

[RedPanda]

I don't think I can watch it. It'll just make me too sad. I've never understood the cosmetic reasons.

My son will always be different to my husband, but we'll just explain why that is. My husband is the altered one - he will reassure my son that he's the one who's normal.

[MotherNurture]

Hazel,

I completely agree, the potty training/why-am-I-different concern is mostly myth. My husband is circumcised but my son---who turns 4 next week---is intact. He's been fully potty-trained for a year now. He has never noticed or asked why his dad looks a little different 'down there'. If he did notice anything it would probably be the shear size difference and pubic hair, lol. When he was learning to pee standing up he'd say, "Just like Daddy!" lol For the most part, I think children desire to be like and mimick their parents behavior, rather than *look* like them. My son has blond hair, hubby has brown and is balding. My son has blue eyes, hubby has green. My son doesn't wear glasses, hubby does. My son has hairless skin, hubby is quite hairy. My son has light, thin eyebrows, hubby's are bushy. Really, with all those obvious differences what difference does a foreskin (which is usually hidden from view) make?

Jen

[RedPanda]

I agree MN. If I had a little girl, I guarantee her genitals will look different to mine. I don't understand why men feel they have to be the same as their sons.

[MotherNurture]

I agree MN. If I had a little girl, I guarantee her genitals will look different to mine. I don't understand why men feel they have to be the same as their sons.

I think the 'matching' issue is more of a knee-jerk reaction and the deeper fear is that if junior isn't circumcised maybe circumcision's not such a great thing and if circumcision is negative that might mean that something's wrong with his penis, his performance, and his masculinity.

Instead, many men assert their authority over the decision making regarding circumcision because 'he's the one with the penis' and since all he knows is what he's always had (most men being circumcised during infancy)...he's 'just fine' and his son will be too. Even considering not circumcising a son means facing what was done to him and questioning what he was subjected to as a defenseless baby.

Somebody cut part of his penis off...there must be a good reason for it...there has to be...the foreskin can't be sensitive, valuable, and functional because if it is he's missing out, he was deprived, robbed. Who would do such a thing to a baby?

That's not a fun thing to think about or face.
It's much easier to say "I'm the man. He's my child. He's getting cut, and that's final!"

Jen

[Can I?]

That was a great story - very well represented on all sides.

Just in reference to what you said up there Jen, my oldest son is 12 and he still hasn't noticed or commented on the difference between his penis and his dad's. He did watch the story about circumcision on 60 mins here a few weeks ago, and was horrified by them showing the procedure. He covered his eyes and asked "But why are they doing that to that poor baby?".

I have watched my husband struggle with the issue exactly as you have stated it above. He has finally settled on the idea that his parents didn't know any better and were simply following what their medical practitioner told them, because I don't think he can reconcile to himself it any other way.

[circangel]

It would be good if material was cited from Australia if possible.

[ShadyCharacter]

What sort of 'material' would you like to see circangel?

[circangel]

Shady character I would prefer Australian material if possible as I am tired of a minority complaining about their potentially perfectly circumcised penises. Till a few years ago the circumcised penis was as common and as aussie as the meat pie.

[Can I?]

I am tired of a minority complaining about their potentially perfectly circumcised penises

Ummmm...what does that mean exactly?

[Milliner]

Ummmm...what does that mean exactly?

I was thinking the same thing. :confused:

[ShadyCharacter]

I'll actually agree that it was once fairly common. But a 'few' years ago is in fact about 30 or 40 years ago. Now we know better.

But I will also agree that your post makes no sense. What Australian material would you like to see?

[circangel]

Was there a 60 minutes not so long ago in Australia on circumcision? That is what I would like to see.

[Milliner]

Here (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=116299&highlight=minutes) is the thread, 60 mins program Australia.

[shed]

This report was a thousand times better than the aussie one!

[Can I?]

I agree. No minor celebrities saying "But I want my son to look like me".

[MotherNurture]

Was there a 60 minutes not so long ago in Australia on circumcision? That is what I would like to see.

Did you think the link was from the U.S.?
It's not. It's from NZ.

Jen

[circangel]

I know it is from NZ but I want to see real aussie stuff especially if real men are complaining.

[stellarella]

I know it is from NZ but I want to see real aussie stuff especially if real men are complaining.

Are Australian circumcisions performed differently to NZ ones....:confused:

'Real' men....you mean the ones with bits missing? I'm sorry I dont understand your posts at all.

[shed]

Well, alot of people would laugh to hear that you seem to think aussie men are the only ones whose complaints are worthy of considering.

A foreskin is a foreskin, one would think.

Anyway, it was relevant to us because my son is half kiwi! So its all good here.

[circangel]

I think that the babies are mainly screaming from being restrained and sure their is some brief pain. How could they be in fear because what would they be fearing and they need to be restrained to minimise an injury that could occur or would be more likely if it were not for the restraint. One could argue it is wrong to restrain them against their will as if they were adults in a non medical environment then that would be a criminal offence. I would like to be neutral as to if it hurts me to see it done but I am not questioning others for wanting to get it done and that is their choice to make. In Australia there are different cultural views I would think.

[MotherNurture]

I think that the babies are mainly screaming from being restrained and sure their is some brief pain.

If an adult were strapped down and having their genitals cut, would you also say it was mostly from being restrained, or because they were undergoing forced surgery on one of the most sensitive parts on their entire body?


I am not questioning others for wanting to get it done and that is their choice to make.

How about the person who owns the penis, the one it's permanently attached to, the future man, the one who has to live with it and will be using it sexually?

There's no reason to guess. No reason to hurry up and do it before he can have a say.

Jen

[Bree3]

The babies don't start crying and screaming until the doctor cuts into them. They are ok before hand being restrained. I agree with that a little boy wouldn't even notice that he might be different to his dad. My DH was circumcised for medical reasons (MIL said that the doctor said that he had to have it done) but his brother wasn't. MIL said that it never once was an issue that they were a little different.

Those poor innocent little babies i feel for them so much :crying: .

[bissym]

Here's the link for the Australian 60mins:
http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=289096

I watched this when it was on. I'm still undecided what I want to do if we have a boy. My partner wants him to have it done; for health reasons, to be like him, etc.
Other than saying it's mutilation (and I don't say this lightly) the Dr. against it in this video doesn't seem to have any other valid reasons.

[the_queen]

I haven't watched the clips (slow 'puter) but my comment is directed to bissym - as Oprah says, "If in doubt, DON'T". You can never "uncircumcise" him once it is done. Tell your partner that little girls have many more folds of skin, much higher chance of UTI's - and then ask him if he'd consider circumcising any baby girls you might have. Imagine the hood of your clitoris being removed at birth - it's the equivalent of a foreskin, with a similar number of nerve endings and pleasure centres. Men often find it difficult to let themselves think of their own penis as "altered" or "mutilated" or "less than perfect". Let the owner of the penis decide what modifications should be made to it. Good luck with your research and decision.

[stellarella]

Thread hijack alert!!!

Kerrin!!!
Why dont you come on here anymore?
Dont you luff us?

[bissym]

Circumcision is Australia has NEVER been common and ALL people i know think its a unneccesary procedure. Perth_Pony

I'm researching this atm as I want to take my time in making this decision. I just thought I'd add this info below from the Australian Statistics. Circumcision is Australia HAS been common as much as 80% in 1950.

http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=6&id=71&Itemid=50

This seems to be very informative and non-biased for anyone wanting to know more about circumcision.

[the_queen]

Thread hijack alert!!!

Kerrin!!!
Why dont you come on here anymore?
Dont you luff us?

I got no internet access :rain: But today I'm at my mums :smiliedance:

[stellarella]

Oh we MISS you!

You need to get the net on!

:hugs:

[madjedjjlill]

I have two boys 11 an 7 an my ex husband(who is circumsised) an I decided not to have them done after talking to a midwife who told us how unnessesary an horiable the procdure is for the baby.
I believe that you should wait, if later it is nessasarry for medical resons or when he is old enough tomake his own desicion then so be it. otherwise why cut of some part of the body mainly to look like dad that just makes no sense to me

[PaperTiger]

I think that the babies are mainly screaming from being restrained
This is a ridiculous statement. I have seen babies be completely relaxed and asleep right up until the very moment. Then at the very first second of pain watch them struggle, fight and scream. Oh trust me, I could say so much more, but I wont.



and sure their is some brief pain.
This is not true. They are in agony THE WHOLE TIME whilst that procedure is being performed.

I cannot believe that ANYONE who witnesses at first hand this procedure being done without an anaesthetic, could possibly believe that the child was only experiencing 'brief pain'. If they did believe it they are in major denial.

[mum2derekandmia]

[quote=stellarella;1950593]Are Australian circumcisions performed differently to NZ ones....:confused:


I am not posting this to cop a bashing from you ladies. I respect your opinions and they are all valid and raise many questions in my mind. Yes my son is done, no I dont regret having him done and if i have another son will he be done? Mabey? I found the information given in this story was very informative and balanced with the for and against and when my son was done I felt I had made an informed decision. I quote stellarella because from the footage I saw yes circumcisions appear to be done differently in NZ to Aust the actual circumcision footage I found hard to watch and I had seen my own son done, the Dr who did my son did him in a sterilised room with a proper surgical nurse not in his office on a disposable cloth. The procedure they showed for 60 minutes in no way even depicted the same procedure my son went through. When my son was done he cried very little and I can say 100% it was not from the procedure itself as we had applied numbing cream to the penis before the local was administered, he truly did not feel any pain not even from the local being administered and I know this as he did not even react to the injection from the local no crying, squirming nothing. Honest. I am not trying to justify this procedure to you or make myself feel better about anything or even defend anyone foolish enough to enter this discussion ignorant. Just a general statement no arguments intended.

[serendipity22]

When I was 13 years old I had 2 perfectly healthy teeth removed to make way for braces. The local didn't work properly and I was in absolute agony.

I didn't make a sound or flinch, so an observer may have
said I wasn't in any pain.