Circumcision, the hidden trauma

[serendipity22]

Has anyone read the above book written by Ron Goldman?

The book opens with interesting facts about newborn babies. Evidence is presented that shows they are more sophisticated that what is commonly believed and are capable of intense sensitivity. (And yes, they can remember.)

The conclusion of the book is quite chilling, its along the lines of "what is done to children, they will do to society."

The book suggests more research needs to be done on the social consequences of circumcision.

It suggests infant circumcision may possibly contribute
to some extent to various social problems in the USA (of course there are many other factors).

Higher rates of:
Divorce
Theft (note the phrase "ripped off")
Sexual assault
Homicide

None of this is proven, but the possibilities might be interesting to discuss.

[RedPanda]

I haven't read it, but that's quite a conclusion that the author has drawn! Circumcision was a lot more common in older generations than it is now, yet I think divorce rates have actually increased in our generation (is it one in three now?).

However, I don't disagree with his assertion that babies have memories, and are capable of intense sensitivity. They are, after all, little humans.

[NeilR]

I would love to read the research he bases his position on.
Whilst I fully support the idea of childhood experiences leading to later life issues I think it is more than just somewhat fanciful to draw a link between circumcision and divorce etc.
The issue of memory is complex, but it would be good if people read into the science of it WRT mylination and development of the parahipocampal and hipocampal areas of a young childs brain.

[ShadyCharacter]

I also read last night that uncircumcised men generally have bigger penises (there WAS a logical explanation) - DP thought that was very gloatworthy :laughing:

The book sounds interesting, I must add it to my book list :)

[stellarella]

This book sounds interesting.

I have read plenty of insightful stuff on birth experiences and how they shape children and ultimately adults.

It all sounds very natural and instinctive to me.

It makes sense that children who do not experience violence, pain, suffering or trauma when they are young are more likely to grow up into caring, kind, loving adults.

I suppose all the examples given come into that somewhere. Anyhow its an interesting topic and I dont think the link is fanciful at all.

[Mamaduke]

The author's reasons/'evidence' not to circumcise are more far fetched than the reasons put forward to circumcise.
What a load of cods-wallop!

[OJandMe]

The author's reasons/'evidence' not to circumcise are more far fetched than the reasons put forward to circumcise.
What a load of cods-wallop!

agreed. nuff said.

[Nowhere]

I also read last night that uncircumcised men generally have bigger penises (there WAS a logical explanation) - DP thought that was very gloatworthy :laughing:

The book sounds interesting, I must add it to my book list :)


LOL thats reason enough not to circ, so they can stip with pride in the locker room when the rulers are out hehe



That makes sense that they can be traumatised later in life they also say that alot of NICU and HDU babies suffer post traumatic stress, i think some of mikis sensory issies are due to that, not circ trauma as she isnt circed but traumatised from her surgerys and NICU stay

[serendipity22]

What a load of cods-wallop!

You would need to read the book before you can make a judgment about it.

[PaperTiger]

Here is an informative study on this very subject. I have others if anyone is interested in them.

It is actually far from a load of codswallop.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=17273395

[Beany]

Mamaoffour: I'd love to read whatever sources you can provide :) Thanks.

[Mamaduke]

You would need to read the book before you can make a judgment about it.
To be honest I wouldn't waste my time. I agree with the pain aspect, it's illegal to dock puppy's tails because it's too painful for them yet...
but as for the rest of the claims, I'm sticking with codswallop.

[shed]

Interesting.

I do believe that things that happen very early in life can have a long lasting effect on people's personalities, simply for the fact that it makes up such a large percentage of their life experience because they haven't been alive long to have many experiences.

That's how I feel about the birth, the welcome and the first few weeks, so circumcision is included in there too.

Not something to be taken lightly or viewed with any kind of dismissive sceptism.

One would think...

[allysophia]

My babies had a very peaceful life.

He was born relaxed and content, he never had to "cry it out" was always loved, comforted.. and I can't imagine all this NOT being a vital part of his upbringing.

I think he'll remember the good times, he is a very smart lil man. So.. why hurt and alter my perfect lil man.

[Nowhere]

My babies had a very peaceful life.

He was born relaxed and content, he never had to "cry it out" was always loved, comforted.. and I can't imagine all this NOT being a vital part of his upbringing.

I think he'll remember the good times, he is a very smart lil man. So.. why hurt and alter my perfect lil man.


Thats really lovely ali, i hope he never has to go through any trauma, or you for that matter its heart renching to see your child suffer

Aparently a lot off premmies and NICU HDU babies have issues at school withbehaviuor and socialising and such due to the truama
I dont have any studdies or stats to proove that just when mikis team have talked to us about, and i have talked with other mums about it and its seems logical to me, from all the trauma and pain they go through

[jlrjyeboah]

Agreed Mamaduke

[OscarTheGrouch]

The author's reasons/'evidence' not to circumcise are more far fetched than the reasons put forward to circumcise.
What a load of cods-wallop!
Classic.:laughing: :laughing: Agreed!!:thumbsup:

[PaperTiger]

Mamaoffour: I'd love to read whatever sources you can provide :) Thanks.

Here you go Beany. There is much available about the possible long term consequences of neonatal exposure to pain. It does take time to read through all the superfluous scientific jargon. But its all out there if anyone wants to take a look and has the time. I'll have a hunt around over the next week or so, and see if I can find any links that are a bit more user friendly for the layperson. :)
I agree the author of the book in question has made a bit of a quantam leap into areas unknown at this stage. It is only in fairly recent years that this subject has been studied at all.
In my opinion the ramifications of pain and stress in infanthood have nowhere near been studied enough. One can only hope that anyone considering any kind of medical procedure for their infants understands that even if there is only the remotest possiblity of consequences long term, one would take that into account accordingly and weigh up wether or not the procedure itself was really warranted.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=10390299&ordinalpos=11&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=10475600&ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

[Beany]

Mamaoffour: I can't seem to access the full article. The links lead to abstracts. Don't worry about user friendliness :) I'm pretty used to jargon.

Even without research there to prove it, doesn't it just make sense that there would be long term ramifications from a traumatic event? I mean as adults, if we were subjected to procedures beyond our control and desire, we'd be hurting for far longer than it took for the physical wound to heal - look at the sorrow and anguish in the birth trauma section here. Why do we expect a child to just "get over it"?

Everything we do to a child leaves a mark on their personality in some way.

I haven't read the book but by the sounds of it, it does seem like he had some premise for that assumption. I do, however, think that assumption was a tad far fetched. I think society and community has a far larger role to play in the issues of divorce, theft and so forth.

[Beany]

Thanks Pony :) I had a look there but there isn't a link to the full article. I think you have to be a subscriber. Although you can get the full version of Procedural Pain in Newborn Infants: The Influence of Intensity and Development here (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/104/1/e13) for free.

[PaperTiger]

Thanks Pony :) I had a look there but there isn't a link to the full article. I think you have to be a subscriber.
Yes my apologies Beany, I didnt take into account that some articles have to be subscribed too. I have changed the parameters of my searching to only include those articles that are free.



Even without research there to prove it, doesn't it just make sense that there would be long term ramifications from a traumatic event? I mean as adults, if we were subjected to procedures beyond our control and desire, we'd be hurting for far longer than it took for the physical wound to heal - look at the sorrow and anguish in the birth trauma section here. Why do we expect a child to just "get over it"?


Yes well you wont get any arguments from me on those points.
After witnessing at first hand the unbelievable distress that neonates undergo, one cant help but believe that they indeed never do 'get over it.'
The effects of PTSD in adults is well known. Just because an infant has no actual conscious memory of pain, doesnt mean to say that a somatic memory does not exist, nor what effect that can have on a developing ego.

All speculation of course, one cant ask a baby how it feels after all.
But I have seen neonates/infants in pale faced shock and vomiting in distress, so its hard to believe that there is no after effects imprinted somewhere in their young brains.

Lizzie

[NeilR]

Interesting.

I do believe that things that happen very early in life can have a long lasting effect on people's personalities, simply for the fact that it makes up such a large percentage of their life experience because they haven't been alive long to have many experiences.

That's how I feel about the birth, the welcome and the first few weeks, so circumcision is included in there too.

Not something to be taken lightly or viewed with any kind of dismissive sceptism.

One would think...

When discussing issues of personality, temperament, memory and development we run into the issue of little empirical evidence and a lot of theory and scepticism I would suggest is completely appropriate.

[shed]

When discussing issues of personality, temperament, memory and development we run into the issue of little empirical evidence and a lot of theory and scepticism I would suggest is completely appropriate.

I think a degree of sceptism is appropriate, but just dismissing something completely with an offhand comment isn't.

Whether the outcome is for or against is another matter again.

[MotherNurture]

Just curious...why isn't this in the Discussion sub-forum?

Jen

[ShadyCharacter]

I think a degree of sceptism is appropriate, but just dismissing something completely with an offhand comment isn't.

Whether the outcome is for or against is another matter again.
Completely agree with Shed here. I admit to sceptism for many of these claims (as anti-circ as I am), but for me to completely dismiss things, any thing, related to circ or not, without fully trying to understand what I am talking about would just be ignorant.

[NeilR]

The book suggests more research needs to be done on the social consequences of circumcision.

This type of research is very problematic: you need a very large population and the variance/variables are so large that any outcome will be indetirminate, even with an incredibly complex multi-variance analysis.


It suggests infant circumcision may possibly contribute to some extent to various social problems in the USA (of course there are many other factors).

Higher rates of:
Divorce
Theft (note the phrase "ripped off")
Sexual assault
Homicide

None of this is proven, but the possibilities might be interesting to discuss.

What would the possibilities be...we might seek to prove an outcome, but a single study does not by itself prove anything as it needs to be independantly replicated to constitute proof of any kind.
However those suggestions are, for want of a better term, laughable if ascribed to circumcision. Given the possible influences on a child's development during their life and adulthood. I would suggest that parenting skills will always be many orders of magnitude more important than circumcision WRT any of the above.

[Mamaduke]

Not that it's anyone else's business but...
NONE of my boys are circumcised or ever will be unless there is a medical necessity for it in the future.
We didn't need a book filled with far fetched insinuations of incarceration, marital problems and future criminal activities to make us come to that decision.
If that makes us ignorant, pfft...so be it.
I don't think that a book filled with unfounded, sensational statements does the anti-circ movement any favours though.
I think the majority will take it's sensationalism like they do their trashy supermarket magazines, with a grain of salt - and then they will miss the most important point, that circumcision is painful and unnecessary.

[NeilR]

I agreecompletely. Good quality information on both sides without the guilt, emotional brutality and tribalism is required for all parents to make an informed decision, whatever it might be.
I find the almost voyeuristic focus on the potential for trauma and the judgemental and accusatorial attitude to difference of opinion very disturbing, especially as I have experienced the damage done.

[PaperTiger]

Has anyone read the above book written by Ron Goldman?

The book opens with interesting facts about newborn babies. Evidence is presented that shows they are more sophisticated that what is commonly believed and are capable of intense sensitivity. (And yes, they can remember.)

The conclusion of the book is quite chilling, its along the lines of "what is done to children, they will do to society."

The book suggests more research needs to be done on the social consequences of circumcision.

It suggests infant circumcision may possibly contribute
to some extent to various social problems in the USA (of course there are many other factors).

Higher rates of:
Divorce
Theft (note the phrase "ripped off")
Sexual assault
Homicide

None of this is proven, but the possibilities might be interesting to discuss.


There is another book that you may be interested to read....Waking The Tiger by Peter Levine. In it he talks quite rationally about PTSD and somatic and psychological long term effects. He does admit that the period around birth and infancy is critical, but unfortunately (probably due to the lack of studies on the subject) doesnt talk enough about it. He does however say that a future book about childood trauma and its effects on the body is in the offing. :)
The current book's main focus is about the healing of overwhelming trauma, but he does go into great detail about how trauma effects the body on a somatic level. Hence he talks about animals and the fact that even though they have no conscious memories they do have abreactions to overwhelming trauma.
Actually I have witnessed this in my dog.
When he was a little puppy, he became frantic and terribly frightened (hysterically so) because he heard the lawn mower starting up suddenly one day.
To this day 10 years later, he becomes petrified and just as frantic of any noise that sounds similiar in any way to that lawn mower all those years ago. He obviously has no conscious memory of it and yet his body reacts to it very strongly.
Speaking on a somatic level if a dog can have that kind of reaction from an unconscious memory, it stands to reason that from the reptillian brain perspective at least, the same can almost certainly happen to humans, but far more subtley, because as adults our evolved conciousness is continually overriding signals from the reptillian brain. Mr Levine however, states that that the effects are felt and remain in our bodies as tension, anxiety and fear.

Interesting discussion this....thanks Serendipity for opening it up...:thumbsup: :)