A positive discussion about breastfeeding. Why are BFing rates so low? [Archive]

stellarella

06-09-2007, 11:48

I have posted this in the breastfeeding section but it is open to all mummies who feel that BFing is an important health issue.

I want this thread to stay really positive. There are to be no attacking posts or defensive posts. We will be discussing BFing openly and frankly. There are to be no us v. them comments. In this thread we are all discussing the same issue and working together.

There are to be no "it doesnt matter how the baby is fed" type comments. This thread is for all mummies BFers or FFers who want to take positive steps to improve BFing rates in Australia and across the world.

The question I want to discuss is: Why are BFing rates so low in Australia?

Current statistics state that only 10% of mothers exclusively BF until 6 months as recommended by the WHO. But the more alarming statistic is that by 6 months 70% of mothers are not BFing at all.

It has been suggested that the majority of those 70% want to BF but are unable to. I believe this could be true so I ask the question: Why have we lost the ability to BF our children? Why has the art of BFing been lost?

Some things we might want to discuss are:

C/secs and birth trauma. Does this have a role to play in BFing? Are we acknowledging birth and those first few moments with our baby as being crucial to successful BFing? Are we considering the emotions of the mother after giving birth or the health of the baby regarding drugs/assisted births?

Information. Do we have information? Are our care provides, CHNs, GPs accurately informed? Are they giving us the right information?

Do we see enough BFing IRL? Is BFing considered normal and natural?

Remember to keep this thread friendly and open. :)

ShadyCharacter

06-09-2007, 12:00

I wish I knew the answer.

I do feel very sad when I hear people saying "I really wanted to breastfeed, but I couldn't". Because chances are they could, but weren't given the support and education they needed.

Also, a lot of new mothers will ask their GP/ECN/Paed for breastfeeding advice.... and these so called professionals freely hand out what is nothing more than their own personal opinion. They don't (or very rarely), have ANY specialised training in breastfeeding, but because they are 'professionals', new mothers take their advice as gospel truth.

ECN's and Paed's especially are quick to tell new mothers that their baby isn't gaining weight fast enough and they need to comp feed with formula. What they DON'T tell them is that this is nearly always the start of weaning. The mother comp feeds, her supply drops off, and then she believes she couldn't breastfeed because she didn't have enough milk. Its a slippery slope :(

And IMO, the one other big thing is societies message that artificial milk is just as good as breastmilk... that old pineapple "I was formula fed, and I was fine" type thing...

Grace3

06-09-2007, 12:03

It's not as EASY as it is made out to be.

It's a skilled that is learnt and its not something we are naturally given as mothers.

I loved breastfeeding once DS and I got the hang of what we were doing and you know it took around 3 months to confidently feed.

It could also be life style and me personally I didn't have the will power. If it wasn't for the love and help from DH and my lactation consultant I would have given up.

Hope this is the sort of feed back your looking for.

PS I breastfeed for 12 months...And very proud of my achievment

misskittyfantastico

06-09-2007, 12:04

Great thread topic:thumbsup:

I know personally, that my mother's and grandmother's negative BFing experiences really impacted how I viewed it. I saw it as difficult, painful, something I HAD to try or suffer the wrath of the ABA, something that I'd ultimately fail at. I didn't say I WOULD be BFing, I said "Oh, I'll give it a try and if I can't, I put him/her on formula"

I'm very fortunate that where I live, the vast majority BF and they feed anywhere and everywhere, so just before DD was born, I was exposed to a lot of positive BFing images - how convenient, how easy it looked, how no one seemed uncomfortable with it.

I do think that birth trauma and rising c-section rates have also had a huge impact on BFing.....sometimes it seems as though we should embrace "newer" methods of having and feeding our children, we are rapidly losing a sense of traditional birthing techniques -we don't see other women birthing and feeding like we once would have.

Places like Norway who have fantastic BFing rates, also have homebirthing as the norm.

Sorry, this is a lot of rambling, but they're just some of my thoughts.

BreakfastatTiffanys

06-09-2007, 12:10

I know in my experience, I never really saw anyone else breastfeed, everyone talked about it. I just never saw it IYKWIM.

dd1 bf for 13 days.
ds tried for 7 days, never latched on once.
dd2 tried for 3 days, also attatchment problems

I wish I had been more succesful.

missie_mack

06-09-2007, 12:11

I believe a major effect is lifestyle changes. Back in our grandparents day when breastfeeding was more acceptable the norm was for women not to work. Today while many women are able to enjoy parental leave many find the financial situation tough and return to work sooner than hoped. While you still are able to work and breastfeed it is often put understandably in the too hard basket. Another effect that I felt was the people live busier lives. Families arent as close as they use to be for support. While there is a lot of professional help out there to substitute, it isnt always so easy to find :no: If you cant travel yourself very few will travel to you like a family member would have once upon a time.

Im not sure if medical intervention has had such a large effect but I do realise it does have an effect. I guess back in our grandparents day many women still died in childbirth while today with medical intervention this is a rarity. Also statistically a lot of people lost babies not long after birth. Especially if the mother was lost in childbirth it was expected that the child may not survive without her.

JMHO

Pippi Longstocking

06-09-2007, 12:17

I think we also have a culture of women perpetuating misinformation. The more people say "my milk dried up" instead of "I chose to wean my baby", the more we have other mothers thinking that their own milk must have dried up too - the more it "happens", the more likely it seems that it will happen to others. It just seems like such a widely held belief that we have women honestly believing that their breasts are defective and milk just vanishes.
It's sad. The low breast feeding rates are a health crisis. We are seeing huge incidences of allergies and asthma, obesity and diabetes etc and the rates are rising.
Women need to be supported. They need to know that breastfeeding can be hard at first and it can be painful. But they also need to know that that is really normal, that it will get easier and that their bodies are completely capable of nourishing their children in the same way they managed to nourish them while they were in utero.
I think too that we also ought to stop pandering. I don't think we should condemn women for formula feeding but pandering isn't helpful either. Formula ISN'T just as good, we need to stop pretending that it is.

Manxie

06-09-2007, 12:20

Hi

My opinion is that there just isnt the support available postnatally.

The midwifes on my postnatal ward bar one were shocking the catalogue of problems was:-

Post c-section they took baby away, took her blood sugar and wanted to give her formula, without my consent or knowledge as she had a low bsl WTF :mad:

Midwife with stinky fag hands manhandling my boobs into DD's mouth, completely the wrong attachment.

Midwife telling me it was a good idea to let DD comfort suckle all night, end result I was red raw in the morning and had to go down the expressing route.

Midwife deciding the DD lost too much weight and starting me on expressing as much as I could, topping up with formula and giving through a supply line.

Midwife deciding my milk hadnt come in so starting me on Medication.

This all occured over a weekend when the hospital lactation consultant was away.

Monday morning I was banging on her door. She told me I didnt need to express, to chuck away the supply line, stop the medication and had DD feeding away nicely within minutes:D From that point on I refused point blank to feed in front of anyone else. DD self weaned at 16 months.

If she hadnt been there more than likely I would have given up. I would have had to rush out and hire a pump, mess around expressing and with supply lines and put up with people telling me she wasnt gaining enough weight and pressurising me to start formula.

We need decent advice and help. They either need to properly and I mean properly train midwifes or recruit lactation consultants. Ideally it would be great if LC's could come and do home visits for the first few days after you come home.

I also think they should spend some more time and money in researching a special weight chart for breastfed babies like the WHO one so that everyone stops freaking out new mums about their babies weight.

CharlisMummy

06-09-2007, 12:23

I don't think there is enough information out there.
My best friend's milk didn't come in until day 5 and the hospital told her she would have to formula feed her baby because he was starving. She just trusted what the hospital was telling her and I would have too to be honest, because I wouldn't have known any better.
I had some trouble at first with good attatchment so I made the midwives come out to my house until I was confident I was doing it right. We're still going almost 9 months later :thumbsup:

Beany

06-09-2007, 12:23

I should have responded in this thread rather than the other one :D

I think society needs to nurture mothers more. The "breast is best" message is all very pretty on a t-shirt and what-not but it's simply not in the public subconscious. If it were, when a mother had the slightest issue, formula wouldn't be suggested to her. If it were, mothers wouldn't be bombarded with "so when are you going to wean him?" weeks after their babies are born.

The ad campaigns in the US may be a bit rough on some sensibilities but some roughness seems to be needed (over there more than over here - the formula lobby over there actually convinced the administration to no longer run those campaigns ... obviously their bottom line was being effected).

While I can see hundreds of tins of formula a day as I wander through supermarkets, chemists and convenience stores, I do not see nearly so many mothers breastfeeding their children. We are conditioned to hide it away, feed them out of view. As such, formula seems the norm as you never see the alternative.

In popular culture, soap operas, drama series and so forth, there is hardly ever a woman breastfeeding (or at the very least appearing to do so). When there is it warrants a mention ... the normal thing to do warrants special attention when the alternative method is glossed over.

More education and exposure (literally :D BARE WITH ME!!) is needed. Breast is best, yeah sure. But we need another message out there: breast is normal.

allysophia

06-09-2007, 12:23

BF is HARD.

I had no supply issues or attachment problems and it was still bloody hard.

So why, if everyone is offering such an amiable alternative (formula) would you put yourself through that HARD work?

I mean, I missed out on parties, social gatherings, drinking, freedom from my son, all because I was BF. And frankly, if all the super-super benefits of BF hadn't been drilled into me from a young age, I would have happily relinquished my son to the bottle. I have a HUGE history of PND in my family but I thought "here I have to put baby first, just suck it up" and I did.

Its joyful now, but I still have some days when.... :rain:(but what mum doesn't?)

My baby isn't just getting feed. He is getting a SUPER feed.

shelle65

06-09-2007, 12:24

My grandmother's theory is that we don't stay in hospital long enough after birth. I think there may be something in that. There is so much going on when you go home - lack of sleep, millions of visitors, panicking at every strange thing your baby does... bf gets pushed down on the list of things to worry about and concentrate on.

There were millions of theories about what happened to me:
- the problems getting the placenta out (took almost two hours despite getting the injection) meant the trigger for the milk to come in didn't happen properly
- I was soooo exhausted after giving birth I didn't bother to try and attach DD properly - just chucked her in the direction of my boob and hoped for the best. The midwives were running around with other women in labour, and didn't have time to make sure I was doing it properly
- because I had no milk in the first week, by day 5 DD was severely dehydrated and we had to give her some formula so she didn't get sick, hence supply never got a chance to establish
- DD never attached properly (despite 3 days at a bf clinic trying to get it right)

there are probably other things that went wrong but I can't think of them right now.

Believe me when I say I tried everything humanly possible to bf - medication, herbal remedies, special teas, special cookies, expressing all the time, attaching and re-attaching, loads of "professional" advice... after 10 weeks I still only had a tiny amount of milk and I couldn't go on. Sometimes I wonder if I had kept going would it have eventually happened? Or was everything too stuffed up from the terrible start I had... :detective:

demeter

06-09-2007, 12:25

I'm one of those "left leaning feminsits" (lol) who thinks that the sexualisation of womens bodies, particularly their breasts, has a lot to do with it. Breasts aren't meant to be seen in public because they are sex objects in our society :thumbsdown:
And when we've spent however many years experiencing our breasts as only a sexual body part it takes some readjusting and reaquainting when suddenly they are food for our babies, and our babies get hungry whenever, wherever.

Sheila Kitzinger says: "bottle-feeding, because it eliminates display of breasts, helps protect women, and their male owners, against such attack. Women's breasts are considered their husbands' possessions. The man decides what is done with them and to whom they can be shown. Shame and disgust about breastfeeding are closely connected to the view of a woman's body as male property"

I also think that it has a lot to do with the fact that men can't do it, and generally when there is something a woman's body can do that men can't it is thought to be disgusting by society at large. Eg. menstruation. Lactating is like mensturating in that it is specifically female, and it is the excretion of bodily fluid.

Ange&Seth

06-09-2007, 12:25

I do feel very sad when I hear people saying "I really wanted to breastfeed, but I couldn't". Because chances are they could, but weren't given the support and education they needed.

This was my problem, I'm convinced of it. I 'couldn't' feed past 3 weeks. Ostensibly because I had gall stones and my body couldn't produce milk AND recover from the birth AND take care of the gall stone problem, so the milk just wasn't produced. I accepted this and out of sheer frustration I gave Seth formula because he was screaming with hunger and I was bawling my eyes out.

I felt alot of pressure from my DP too, although I'm sure he thought he was being supportive. 'Just try once more babe' he'd say. All I wanted to do was shout at him.

I didn't really know about the ABA or the possibility of re-lactation. I thought once your milk was gone - it was gone. It wasn't until I found Bubhub that I realised there was a whole new world out there.

I WILL BF my next baby until at least 6 months. It might be tough, but I'm determined to do it.

I was visiting my sister last week and my nephew has just turned one (it was the first time I'd ever met him) and she lifted her shirt to feed him. I don't think I've ever been so envious in my life. I just said 'you're SO lucky to still be able to feed him'.

I don't feel guilty for giving Seth formula, but I do wish I was better educated.

Grace3

06-09-2007, 12:26

I will sit down and read everyone's thread tongiht, as I am finding this really interesting.

BUT also for ME, my milk came in when the hopsital was ready to send me home. I would have prefered to have an extra 2 days at the hospital with the lactation nurse and try and get the technique more accurate then to go home and think it's not working and my boobies are getting bigger and sore.

Shanaynay

06-09-2007, 12:29

stellarella

06-09-2007, 12:33

Thanks so much for all the responses so far and the insightful stories of your own experiences.

It feels like we have so much to over come and work on. Sometimes this issue seems insurmountable but I feel that by discussing it openly we can start at a grass roots level.

Wouldnt it be great if all new mothers were provided with their own doula/LC who was qualified to help guide them through pregnancy, birth and post partum? It would be so lovely and valuable I feel.

For now I just try and get my boobs out as much as possible...the more people who see me BFing the more normal it will be. :p

Manxie

06-09-2007, 12:33

We are exposed to it less and less... the less we are exposed to it, the less it becomes the norm... even in today's liberal society, breastfeeding is usually seen as something that should be done out of view of the public. I don't think that is helping :thumbsdown:

People often say that the increased rates of csecs and PND probably contribute to falling bf rates. They are probably right but as someone who had both a csec and PND and didn't have a problem with breastfeeding it is harder for me to understand.

I agree, get them out I say! I found it quite strange when sitting at a table of all woman (all mums who had breastfed) and two mums who have just had no2 both hid their feeding babies in shawls. I was a bit disappointed as I love to see babies feed! Maybe thats why they hid them they think I'm some sort of perve :detective: Each to there own but being more open and accepting about breastfeeding would be really good. When do you ever see someone b/feeding on t.v.?

cmd'smum

06-09-2007, 12:40

Ana Gram

06-09-2007, 12:44

I think who you are around right after the birth has a huge impact. It is a very vulnerable time.

Myself, I did have a pretty rotten birth and was not treated very well during my stay at hospital. I woke up to find a midwife jamming my screaming child onto my breast. I got told on several occasions that "you'll never be able to breastfeed with those nipple". I got told off because my child was disturbing everyone else. I got yelled at many times and was not allowed to try and feed her without supervision. The lacation consultant was also no help. Apparently I was doing everything right yet both me and my child screamed all the way through any attempts to breastfeed. In the end, I was threatened with the removal of my child from my care if she didn't put on weight.

Thankfully my mother took charge after that and I was discharged.

Once at home, I reached out for help from doctors, maternal health nurse and the ABA. I must have got everyone on a bad day and found very little help was there for me.

I switched to expressing but I still hated every second of it and I was starting to hate my child. I was so pleased when I came down with a health condition where I needed medication which meant I had to stop feeding her breast milk all together.

cmd'smum

06-09-2007, 12:46

ShadyCharacter

06-09-2007, 12:51

I was thinking about this while I ate my lunch, and had another thought about the support issue.

I gave birth to my son in a Birth Centre. BC midwives are not rostered on to work during the night, so if you need anything, you buzz for a nurse/midwife to come from the maternity part of the hospital.

I was having huge trouble BF in the middle of the night, DS was ready and willing, but I couldn't work it out, I felt like I needed 3 (at least!) hands. DS and I were both in tears, and DP was feeling very helpless. I buzzed for a midwife.... when the hospital midwife came in, she was rude, abrupt, and just did the whole 'grab babies head in one hand, boob in other and jam them together'.

It worked for THAT feed. It didn't actually teach me anything. It was only that I had a wonderful BC midwife spend a few hours with me the next day that I finally worked it all out and started a good (though painful!) BF relationship.

Then a few months later, I posted on another forum that my GP had told me that DS was lactose intolerant and I needed to switch to formula. It was only that another 'breastfeeding nazi' PM'd me and urged me to do more research before taking the GPs advice that stopped me weaning onto formula.

So yeah, if it wasn't for those two people, it is reasonably likely I would be formula feeding. 3 years later I am still breastfeeding my son.

I think support and education is a huge part.

Too much social acceptance of formula feeding is also up there too.

GraceUnhearing

06-09-2007, 12:54

i thi its because its not and easy thing to do when you first start out

alot of people give up 'cause its to hard'

it is hard at first but if you persist is SO EASY!!

and so much better for bubs.

Rylan now tells me when he wants boob and all i have to do is get my boob out.
he does the rest now!

i had mastitis 3 times cracked and infected nipples, bleeding nipples, blocked and infected ducts.

it hurt like hell when i fed him and i'd just scream some times!
but i know whats best for my son.

what right do i have to deny the best start to life from him because of a little pain?

missmaisy

06-09-2007, 13:04

First of all,what an interesting thread! Bear with me-I'm 26 now,have had three bubs.I'd like to contibute my thoughts on this topic firstly as the 19 year old me, when my first baby was born.I was still worried about what society thought of young mothers, and i didn't have the confidance to feed in public, so i'd shoot off to the car, or change rooms etc if we were out, and even at home if people came over, i felt like i had to take myself away from company to feed-silly i know, but i just felt weird.I did have have PND, didn't bond with bub, and it hurt like hell every time he latched on.I got mastitis, and my milk stared to dry up, bub and me both screaming, i put him on formula.At the time i thought it was the best thing i could have done.BUT looking back- my milk did come back, and at the time i had no idea that i was allowed to put him back on the boob, cause i thought it would mess his poor little tummy up!Living in a small country town, we have only just heard of lactating consultants, but i don't think we have one!Being under informed is a huge issue.Having said that, with my last bub, i was going to breast feed come hell or high waters.But she was born with a med. condition that prevented it, which really upset me because three kids later i could take on anyone who looked at me funny for feeding my baby,and i am more willing to ask for help, trust my instincts ect.Sooooooo- there are alot of contibuting factors-better post natal services, and some where to ask questions like'what do i do when this happens?" would help i think.Sorry about the long post!

Mamaduke

06-09-2007, 13:06

06-09-2007, 13:07

A little bit OT, but I recently got some of those cards from the ABA which say

"Hi, i just wanted to give you this card to say how much I appreciate seeing another Mum Breastfeeding in public. Every time Mums feed their baby wherever, whenever they need to, such a great example is being shown to the world. You are a beautiful role model women, girls and even men and boys.
Congratulations to you! Keep up the good work. Keep this card in rememberance, or pass it on to the next Mum you see breastfeeding their baby."

I don't usually go in for stuff like that, but after reading on here how many mums feel really self conscious in public, I thought a little solidarity may be a nice gesture. At least she would know 1 person thinks she is great!

The only problem is, since I have got the cards, and religiously take them everywhere with me, I haven't seen any mums breastfeeding in public.:gloomy:

It looks like I am going to have to sit down and nurse, and give myself one of the cards...:o

Kizmet

06-09-2007, 13:10

Interesting topic :thumbsup:

I think lots of things contribute to it. One of them being that there is a lot of misinformation out there. I hadnt found bubhub before I had my daughter and honestly , and now i realise very naively, thought breastfeeding would come naturally to me. I didnt think it would be painful at all I naively thought i'd have the baby latch her on and we'd go from there. I understood that I'd have the baby blues around the time my milk came in and to my knowledge at the time that was the only thing i had to keep an eye out for. I had no idea about nipple shields, shredded nipples, poor attachment, the effect stress would have on supply or lansinoh. I wasnt told any of this at the hospital either. Every midwife that came into my room (i was there for 4 days my milk came in while at hospital) latched my daughter onto my breast a different way. Every midwife had a different theory on feeding and some were quite angry and forceful with them. Often after the midwife left I would just cry. I was screamed at by one to feed 20 mins one side and 20 mins the other side each feed so I would do that and a new midwife would come in next feed and scream at me that I should leave her on the same breast the entire feed so she gets more hind milk.

What was the right answer? No one would tell me at the time. I was left to figure it out myself. I had no idea about lactation consultants...no idea what they were or that they existed. Found lots of support from my CHN but support in the form of 'good job feeding keep up doign the best thing for your baby " etc not advice.

My mother just kept telling me to persist with it that it is hard but better in the end and would look at me like a wounded dog when i would express that I was HATING the experience because I was in so much pain. My in laws-which I saw a lot back then- were and still are so anti-breastfeeding. I stopped feeding her on the breast and exclusively expressed milk and gave it to her. This was fine it still hurt like buggery but less than having her latch on. I rang karitane as it was a 24 hour help line number I found in one of the books I had. The woman was rude. Made me feel like absolute **** for expressing milk not feeding DD on the breast. Trying to find out how much I should express was like pulling teeth. She told me I shouldnt be expressing and was quite harsh in her tone speaking down to me. I got off the phone and cried.

I had been expressing for a few days when my husband was rushed to hospital in excruciating pain. Turns out he needed an operation. I was depressed, I was stressed that I had this newborn and my husband was going in for surgery, I had no support and yes i'm going to say it MY MILK STOPPED. Yes my milk stopped. It was not me weaning my child. It actually stopped. I could normally express about 240 mls each breast if I tried however I tried to express and got no more than 10mls each breast. My daughter was screaming, starving, my husband in hospital so I bought her formula and it was a god send. The light at the end of the tunnel.

that is my story...kind of got way off track from my original point :laughing:

Due to circumstances beyond my control after my husband getting out of hospital ie. me being rushed into hospital for an operation. I know that I would not have continued breastfeeding for longer than 5 months. But that is still 5 months. Tis better than the 3 weeks she was breastfed. I do not regret my decision as with the circumstances I had no choice and my daughter has thrived on formula.

So in conclusion :laughing:

*I think there needs to be a standard or common way of midwives to show new mums how to breastfeed. They just werent on the same page at all.
*I believe the correct information about what to realisticly expect when breastfeeding at first needs to be out there because just saying 'breast is best' isn't helping. It just makes us feel like failures and like somehting isnt right when we go through problems.
*More government funding for the ABA might be good as well. I know the joining fee can be a bit off putting. I still dont really know what you get for joining...ie what you are paying for.

Ange&Seth

06-09-2007, 13:11

Mamaduke

06-09-2007, 13:12

I don't usually go in for stuff like that, but after reading on here how many mums feel really self conscious in public, I thought a little solidarity may be a nice gesture. At least she would know 1 person thinks she is great!

I was having a similar conversation with my bestie the other day. I told her that I just couldn't possibly breastfeed in front of anyone but DH. She asked, "Not even me?"
I told her no.
She then reminded me that she's seen me in labour, nude, on all fours on a hospital bed.
"That's different" I told her...
yet couldn't explain why.
When I was still battling with breastfeeding Lucas I had a room full of people visiting us in hospital and it was Lucas' feed time. I was in such a mess trying to figure out what to do - do I ask them to leave...would that be rude, but I can't possibly breastfeed him in front of all these people!

ShadyCharacter

06-09-2007, 13:13

I got similar cards from NP magazine, about gentle parenting rather than BF though.... they were luffly.

stellarella

06-09-2007, 13:21

I
*More government funding for the ABA might be good as well. I know the joining fee can be a bit off putting. I still dont really know what you get for joining...ie what you are paying for.

The ABA is there for all women regardless of whether you are a member.

The membership fee is to maintain the service they offer so you are not obliged to join but for some of us, like me :) , we like to supprt them. Its like a donation towards a great organisation that I believe in.

You do get a magazine which I love reading. You get a few extra perks as a member, like a forum. I got a free breastfeeding book (excellent!!!! :thumbsup: ) upon joining and a kids book about co-sleeping when I just renewed my membership.

But all women should feel free to contact the ABA.

06-09-2007, 13:28

I'm pretty sure the ABA forum is open to anyone at all, not just members.

lillyflower04

06-09-2007, 13:30

These are the reasons I believe I failed at bfing, and these reasons seem to be very common ones I see:

Lack of support - with DD, the public and private ward was full, and the nurses and midwives had no time to spend with me. They just shoved her face in my breast and commented I had poor attachment but couldn't work out why. :rolleyes: By the time I left hospital my nipples were cracked and bleeding, I was on the verge of an infection. Had there been an LC at the hospital, or more time given to me, I do think I could of lasted longer than I did. With DS, he did not attach properly at all, and whilst the midwives and nurses did try to help, they also couldn't understand why he wouldn't attach. No LC at this hospy or even in a 200km radius. (There is an ABA here but I have heard some not so nice stories that the main counsellor is a little OTT and rude). there are no where near enough LC's and midwives (imo) don't seem to be adequately trained in difficult bfing, like poor attachment and supply issues.

No one tells you how hard it's going to be - With DD, I didn't buy one bottle or formula because I really planned to bf her. But I couldn't believe how painful and difficult it was going to be. I just thought that it would happen on it's own. With DS, literally a dozen different midwives and nurses tried to get him to attach, but not once did he. I think we need to promote more than it DOES hurt, sometimes even with the right attachment. I think women are expecting it to be easy, then they can't handle the pain, think 'oh well it's not going to work cos it's not meant to hurt' and then ff.

Family history of failed bfing - my mother had attachment issues with all three of us and never got past a month (she really did try). I think subconsiously I was waiting for it not to work. My aunty, grandmother, cousens all had attachment issues (to do with flat nipples we all have), so I've never seen anyone have a successful bfing relationship.:(

~Emmylou~

06-09-2007, 13:46

Gosh I think there are sooo many factors at play here, the more you think about it, the more complex it gets.

*Lack of ongoing support

*Lack of basic education - about both the "how to" part and the benefits

*Traumatic, overly intervened and medicalised births that put mum's on the backfoot before they even start

*Lack of sleep and wanting to share the load at night

*Lack of immediate family around with breastfeeding experience - mothers, grandmothers, aunts, sisters etc who in the past would have been a good source of knowledge and support for a mum that was having trouble

*Formula promoted as an equally good substitute instead of as an alternative of last resort

* Social factors - attitudes towards feeding in public and extended breastfeeding

* Mothers issues - sexual abuse, body image issues

Could probably pull out a few more but that's off the top of my head :)

This is an area that the government could make such a difference in and everyone would benefit - healthier mothers and healthier babies makes for less of a dent in the bottom line of their health budget after all. I really wish they'd get it together and take it seriously, hopefully the recent inquiry will be a step forward.

chameleon

06-09-2007, 14:27

(I haven't read all the posts as DD is just waking up, but quickly wanted to have my say...)

I think the decline in breastfeeding has a lot to do with society and peoples attitudes around us. Unfortunately I don't breastfeed and here is why I think I don't...

You know the first present I recieved when I was pregnant... A BOTTLE STERILISER! I had every intention of breastfeeding yet I got given a bottle steriliser and a whole heap of bottles:rolleyes:

Secondly I had a caesarean and my daughter was in hospital for 5 weeks, being fed via a tube as she was premmie. I was the only Mum at the time who was expressing. All the other Special Care babies were already on formula. And not once did anyone ever ask me if I wanted to try breastfeeding her. I had to ask and they tried to show me, in the middle of the room with millions of people around. It didn't go to well, and when she was ready to go home I still had no idea how to get her to attach. You would think that in 5 weeks there was plenty of time for me to be shown how...:(

So I did express for a little bit, but I had all those new bottles and bottle steriliser sitting there waiting to be used, and after some nagging from my DH about how much "easier" it'd be to switch to formula I stopped expressing.

I feel really bad that I didn't try harder or be a bit more persistant with trying in the hospital, but am very determined to breastfeed next time:yes:

So there are a few points that I think stopped me from breastfeeding, and probably a few others out there too.

(Great thread by the way!:thumbsup: )

Bron

06-09-2007, 14:51

I think it has a lot to do with what is seen as normal in each person's life, which depends on what your family does, the socio-economics of your area, the levels of education of those around you.... all sorts of factors.

Breastfeeding to me seemed "normal". All my family did it, all my friends do it or did it, I only know 2 FF mothers, they are in my mothers' group and only bottle feed because despite massive efforts they couldn't breast feed. Formula feeding in my life, in my family, in my social group and in my suburb is not the norm, so I just never thought I'd do it.

Even at the very beginning of breastfeeding when I had horribly cracked nipples, agonising let down and a desperately hungry baby, I never considered formula. I considered expressing full time, but never formula. I don't think that this is a massive acheivement, it just isn't something that is part of my life.

sueliz

06-09-2007, 15:45

I have not read all through this thread so sorry if I am repeating anything, but I think some of the reason is jumbled information and lack of emotional support. I know when I was in the hospital with DS there was one stage where 3 midwives on the same shift told me 3 completely different conflicting things about what I 'should' be doing! And everyone I know that has gone to this hospital - which is a VERY pro-breastfeeding hospital, have had the same issue. And to be honest - not all of them are actually very nice about it which then instills a fear and dread you can associate with BF. I think it's fabulous that the 'knowledge' support is there, but unfortunately I don't think all the 'emotional' support is there. To have someone snap at you, telling you are doing the wrong thing and pretty much shoving a screaming baby on your already cracked nipple is not going to encourage most people to persevere. (I know for a fact that certain midwives have actually put people off calling the ABA because they honestly believe that all the people there will be mean - which of course is not the case)
Midwives are incredibly busy in the hospitals - I do understand that. And a lot of them are working in wards which are understaffed and must be under immense pressure - but I was in hospital for 5 days and had prob at least 15 different midwives throughout their various shifts come and see me. Only 2 of these were encouraging, supportive and incredibly helpful in their advice and manner when it came to BF. And more then 2 of them were just plain scary. Women who have just given birth - especially for the first time and are in a whole new world don't need that.

I just want to add too - my aunt is a midwife and my OB has a wonderful midwife so I am honestly not trashing all of them. These wonderful ones make all the difference in the world in those first few days and I believe can seriously effect how some people view their BF journey.

LMenz

06-09-2007, 15:45

Great topic :thumbsup: Those rates are so low....

When I first found out I was pregnant lots of peple asked me if I would breastfeed. I replied with I'm going to "try". In the back of my mind I always knew I could rely on formula if worst came to worst.

I found BF really, really hard. The hospital I had Jack in was severely understaffed....There just wasn't enough one on one help. So many times I wanted to give up. Some nights I would actually cry when he woke to feed. I had heard many times persistance pays off so I stuck with it.

At 3 weeks I sought the help of a private LC - best thing I ever did. She was fab! Very encouraging, told me I had heaps of milk, perfect attachment.....She made me feel very positive about feeding my bub.

I think more support and encouragement is the key. An aquaintence praised me when Jack was 7 weeks old for feeding him - That comment alone helped me continue to feed him. It made me feel really positive about it and that I was doing a great thing for my son. My DH was super supportive and my MIL gives me lots of encouragement too especially considering she never BF my DH or SIL. Resources like bubhub and the ABA are so fantastic and worth their weight in gold

I think society see's the breast as a sexual object not a nurturing, food source. I think the general population only see's breastfeeding as being for babies up to 3 months. I don't think it's seen as the "normal" thing to do..whatever normal is anyway. More education and exposre in mainstream media is needed.

Nearly 7 months on and I'm still feeding Jack. I really love it :) and he really loves it. I can see us making it to 12 months

OscarTheGrouch

06-09-2007, 15:54

I think education is a big thing. Women should be educated about BF. While there are Mums out there who do their research, there are many that don't. I'll probably be edited for this, but........ The money that is spent on elective c-sections in the public system, could be re-directed toward more publically funded Lactation Consultants and antenatal BF programmes. As a disclaimer, to any who have taken offence to my post, my last baby was born via an elective (due to reasons beyond my control) after I had previous had 2 VB's. I went through the private system and paid for it.:D

Kittylou

06-09-2007, 15:58

For me it was frustrating 'chalk and cheese' methods of breastfeeding from each rostered midwife, along with the fact that no one said 'hey this will hurt' that made me stop breastfeeding Lucas after 3 days.
I was starting to resent him and every time he started to wake I would just want to head for the door and let someone else take care of him. As soon as I would bring him close to my breast I felt my shoulders tensing up, my toes curling, eyes squinting...and that's how we battled through it together for 3 days. Me screaming and crying and Lucas screaming and crying.
In the end I just couldn't see it ever getting any better (no one said there was light at the end of the tunnel) and I gave up - I felt I needed to make the choice between breastfeeding and hating my child, or formula feeding and loving him.

This pretty much sums up my experience of breastfeeding too - just add in a dash of mastitis for good measure...

I had a number of midwives try to 'help' me with breastfeeding while still in hospital - some were nice and patient, others not so much. But, the bottom line was that all they really did was put him on for me which was great - until they left the room and he came off a few minutes later and I didn't know how to get him to attach correctly myself.

Once home, I persevered for a couple of days but it just seemed completely hopeless and I was not only dreading every single feed but terrified that I was going to kill my child because he wasn't getting enough milk from me. Just to clarify, I had heaps of milk and was leaking everywhere - I just couldn't get him on or get him to stay on my boob.

At the time, I didn't know that lactation consulatants even existed. I only found this out a couple of years later when my sister had similar problems with her first baby but got help from a private LC and went on to BF successfully.

I have to admit, I'm very nervous (read terrified) about going through all of this again in a couple of months time. I only hope that, armed with a lot more information and awareness of support, that this time I'm strong enough and confident enough to get through those early weeks.

CharlisMummy

06-09-2007, 16:14

When I was in hospital, everytime I had to feed DD I would call for a midwife to come and help me so I was positive I was doing it right. I kept getting them to show me how to attatch each time. The second day I was in there I had a sticky beak at my chart and there was a page about BF. They grade you every feed.
You got:
A If you fed unassisted
B If you fed unassisted but with a midwife present
C If you had to ask for direction
D If you had the midwife actually attatch bub

Because I was getting them to show me each time I had a row of D's on my chart. I was upset becuase I felt like I was failing an exam at school or something. If I wasn't so determined to BF I think that would have made me give up.
When I had my first home visit from the ECN I was really nervous of feeding in front of her in case she said I was doing it all wrong but she was wonderful and told me I was doing great and showed me how to hand express into a towel to relieve my giant boobies :laughing:

I think we need more support in the hospital :yes:

stellarella

06-09-2007, 16:20

I'll probably be edited for this, but........ The money that is spent on elective c-sections in the public system, could be re-directed toward more publically funded Lactation Consultants and antenatal BF programmes. As a disclaimer, to any who have taken offence to my post, my last baby was born via an elective (due to reasons beyond my control) after I had previous had 2 VB's. I went through the private system and paid for it.:D

Funding is an issue but honestly Australia has plenty of money without needing to take it from another part of the health care system.

We just need to get the government to inject more money into health care in general. We obviously need more LCs to give one-on-one assistance to all new mothers.

I think continuity of care is really important too and a Birth Centre type programme within public hospitals would be a huge step forward. At the moment this is available to only a few women. All women should have the option of BC care where they are continuously cared for by the same midwives, many of whom are LCs as well.

OscarTheGrouch

06-09-2007, 16:29

Funding is an issue but honestly Australia has plenty of money without needing to take it from another part of the health care system.

We just need to get the government to inject more money into health care in general. We obviously need more LCs to give one-on-one assistance to all new mothers.

In reality though, that's not likely to happen.

deb1234

06-09-2007, 16:33

I'm a new mum and have a four week old son. At the moment I'm breastfeeding from one side and expressing from the other!

I have had countless midwives and a few lactation consultants watch me attach and say i'm doing brilliantly - but why do my nipples start bruising and hurt like hell whenever he feeds? They say it shouldn't hurt to breastfeed if you are doing it properly...

I know it is early days for me and I am waiting for this magical six week mark when everything is supposed to fall into place :rolleyes: but at the moment I'm not enjoying this breastfeeding gig at all and can't wait for it to be 'easy' or for the 6-12 months to be over - whichever comes first!! :)

I'm going to keep doing what i'm doing because i know its best for Isaac...but here are the reasons i would stop in a heartbeat if someone proved that formula was just as good!!

- I worry about the fact that he is so dependent on me and can't relax because i'm waiting for that cry that means its the next feed

- I hate that I'm the one who has to feed him and DH can't (although with expressing one side we both get to feed him)

- I dread going anywhere with him and watch him constantly for any signs he is going to wake up and i'll have to feed him somewhere in public and won't be able to do it

- It hurts and i can't see that it won't when someone is tugging at your breast with all their might!

- I actually enjoy giving him a bottle more than BFing him because i can relax and look into his eyes and do all those bonding things you are supposed to do

- Its such a pain organising these big breasts into maternity bras, applying Lansinoh, putting in a breast pad etc. etc.

- Its even more of a pain when you've spent all that time organising your breasts behind breast pads and you wake up (or even worse, notice when you are in public) leaking all over the place

...that's all i can think of for now! Not very positive i know, but i'm persevering for Isaac's sake and I am very lucky that i can express enough for him. I think there needs to be more stories told about the troubles people have with BFing and solutions and support.

Sorry for the rant! :D

stellarella

06-09-2007, 16:36

In reality though, that's not likely to happen.

Why not?

The government is supposed to represent us.

It will take time I agree but everyone needs to speak up.

We need to start using our vote to create change. :yes:

meme

07-09-2007, 15:40

i agree with so much that has been said, i think it is a huge multi faceted solution that is needed.

birthing plays a huge role on breastfeeding, so definately better support for pregnant women continueing through to breastfeeding would be great.

i think that the baby friendly health initiative and the ten steps that hospitals have to follow to get this accreditation is great in this area.

i also think that we need to have a whole shift in our society to how breastfeeding is percieved. current there are studies that show that bottlefeeding images far outweigh breastfeeding images on tv, and i think that is every where in our community, baby's bottles are just naturally associated with babies and often used as a symbol for baby, making bottlefeeding seem the completely normal default feeding method. this is totally damaging to breastfeeding rates, our children are growing up playing with dolls and bottlefeeding them, copying what they see around them as normal, in story books they see even bears bottlefeeding their babies, and story book characters bottlefeeding.

at daycare they learn about healthy eating, but may not see any breastfeeding images.

while it's only one piece of the puzzle, i think part of the solution lies in changing these issues with infant feeding and letting breastfeeding become the more visual cultural norm that it deserves to be, especially for the next generation of mothers and fathers.

i also think better non biased info regarding the health affects of infant formula needs to be available for everyone.
it is a health issue, and we need to start using language to reflect this. there are no health benefits from breastfeeding, but there are risks involved in not breastfeeding, and you will need to be aware of them to make a good informed choice on infant feeding.

and finally, i am all over the lpace in this thread i could prolly bore you all silly and go on and on! but you've all said such good stuff already:yes:

but why do my nipples start bruising and hurt like hell whenever he feeds? They say it shouldn't hurt to breastfeed if you are doing it properly...
do your nipples actually change colour at feeds? just wondering if there could be vasospasms, contributing to your painful breastfeeding?
sounds like you are doing great on hanging in there, support and reassurance can be so helpful in the early days, so i hope that you have a good support team and continue to expand on it, in most cases when breastfeeding does take some time to establish, it does eventually get easier and more enjoyable, :hugs: .

Nowhere

07-09-2007, 16:39

I have been thinking about this thread since yesterday when i first read it and i have gone to reply then not etc but think today i will

I would definitely agree that there is a lack of education out there on breast feeding, and as some one mentioned you very rarely see a breastfeeding mum on TV or in a movie or any thing like that but to be honest i really don't see how that could sway someones decision to bottle feed but having said that maybe t does.

I found when i was pregnant the question of Will you breast of bottle feed came up a lot and to be honest, until then i never realized how passionate people was either way to me it has always been some breast feed some don't and that was that, But i noticed some ask with such arrogance on both sides, you have the Are you going to breast feed its the best thing to do etc, and then you have the other side saying if you can you can not big deal my head was spinning with all the comments and to be perfectly honest i found allot of the comments from Pro breast feeding women came across with some what of an Superior attitude, which straight away made me think oh go away i Will do what i want, i don't know if any one else had those thoughts or just me.

Any way i had decided i was going to breast feed and i was going to be the perfect mum with the perfect child and i was going to demand feed until my supple came in and then i was going to feed 3 hourly during the day and then hopefully stretch it to 4 hours at night, you know all those wonderful thing you think when you are pregnant.

Any way when kenzee was born everything changed, i had this beautiful baby that could not breath and could not suck and puked to high, she had a NG tube in to feed her and i was also attempting to feed her when she was Strong enough ( or thought to be) and she would just scream blue murder and cough and choke, at the time i did not know but she had problems with her airways her throat her esophagus her tummy and her bowels, mean wile she was still being tube fed and i was being daisy the cow with a stupid breast pump while my baby was in the nicu, i was getting not even 10 mls in 2 hours or pumping and she was getting mainly formula which she was intolerant to so ripping up her insides ant way as was the breast milk what she got because she was intolerant to that too

Any way i do have a point LOL not just rambling on, Okay since having my DD and spending so much time in hospital and and with Dr's etc Have met other women in a similar situation to what i was in, and its hard to get the correct advice for instance if you say to a Breast feeding mum i am having trouble breast feeding due to breast milk colitis you get there is no such thing as breast milk colitis its cows milk protein colitis ( not always true) then you have the DR telling you okay your bub need to go on neocate as it is the only thing it Will tolerate KWIM there is not one that sits on the fence and looks at you individual babies needs and gives you an unbiased option

I have even talked to breast feeding mums about if i have another bub with the same problems as my DD she is intolerant to all protein malabsorbs fat, sugar (including natural sugars), and carbs and the reply i get is it wont happen again, so rather then suggestion ways mums like my self are to get around these issues we either gt treated like its not happening or it gets swept under the carpet, I know that most babies can tolerate breast milk but some cant and NO ONE wants to help figure out why, as the breast feeding mums don't believe it and the Dr's say give her or him neocate formula

Yes cases like ours are rare but similar ones happen all the time, there was a thread on here a while ago from another mum in a similar position barely anyone bothered to reply, even to send her a hug, or let her know they are thinking of her,

Also they need to make breast pumps that actual work on all women, as pumping and tube feeding is near on impossible well was for me 10 mls in 2 hours of pumping ain't going to get you very far

I hope that the rate of breast feeders increases and i hope that there is more education available

But comments like "i will never give any baby of mine formula" are not going to help any one as that just comes across as arrogant not informative at all.People that feel that way I hope to god they never have a child like kenzee, as it is hard enough having a sick baby with out letting your preconceived ideas get in the way and mess with your head even more

I really do hope that people find a way to get the message across

And before any says i feel guilty for not breast feeding No i don't I'm thank full that my DD is doing as well as she is (and thats not great) but the thought i wish i could breast feed doesn't come into my head, there are a lot of thing i wish hope and pray for my DD but that is not one of them,

3cherubs

07-09-2007, 16:53

With all my 3 pregnancies and births i had heaps of info about BFeeding. Also help was also readily available when i needed it too. Also all the hospitals i gave birth at were very much FOR Breastfeeding.

I agree YES it is hard at first, but perserverence does pay off, for you and baby.

But, i think more TV advertising would be good and maybe all pregnant women should have to attend 1 or more Breastfeeding awareness Clinics ( or something similar) while pregnant.
To gain more confidence and find out where support is.

demeter

07-09-2007, 17:25

07-09-2007, 17:40

Homebirth initiation and ongoing breastfeeding rates are phenomenal.

I guess you could say that the one on one ongoing mw care helps a lot, and every hb mum I have ever met has been uber pro breastfeeding to begin with, and have read a zillion books on the subject, and also many of them seem to know lots of breastfeeders, so are exposed to it, know how it works, looks, and have access to friends who have been through the hard stuff, and come successfully out the other side.

Just my observations anyway.:)

prideNJoy

07-09-2007, 17:42

Great thread btw, I don't have anything to add really as it's probably already been covered :thumbsup:
I have a bit of a story i want to mention.

I ran into one of my daughters Daycare carers last night (she was due to have her bubs a month after me) and her little boy was 11 days old yesterday and she told me she gave up breasfeeding the day before as it was just too painfull.

Ok, now my mum was with me and was really trying to convince her to give it another go!
And telling her of all the different options if she tried to continue (eg, nipple shields, expressing to give her nipples a rest etc...)

She said she had already been to the Dr. and he had given her some tablets to dry up her milk. I didn't really say much (didn't have too, mum wouldn't shut up!) but i felt bad as it seemed as though she had NO support from the Dr. to keep going just a "here ya go, take these, seeya later" kind of attitude.

I guess what I'm saying is it seems to me there is a lack of support from the people (professionals) that should really be pulling you up when your down.
The best support i had was my mum, having breastfeed 5 children i trust her completely and she has helped me so much with getting the technique right, and saving me from times when i was nearly in tears and ready to give up, she kept pushing me. In a good way of course.

I just wish everyone had the same support and encouragment that i had.

Freya

07-09-2007, 17:51

I haven't read through the previous posts and someone has probally already said what I have to say...

I think that there is a few major factors in my experience that are putting women off.

1) Whilst in hospital when the midwifes were 'teaching' me to breastfeed they made me feel like a failure, how they told me to hold him was uncomfortable and brought me to tears everytime. The comments they make, the looks and them being so rough with both your breast and your child makes you feel inadequate.. The different things each midwife is telling you.. do it this way then the next one comes along what are you doing do it this way.. It just confuses you and it made me so upset I was on the verge of giving up. Once I got home I found what was comfortable for US.

2) 'FORMULA FED BABIES SLEEP LONGER' I am constantly told this and everytime I hear it I think god no wonder so many mums give in.. With the stress and sleep deprivation that comes with these little beings it is quite the temptation. I know there has been nights were Kaid has refused to sleep and the thought of giving him a formula bottle has crossed my mind LUCKILY I think twice and realise what a silly thing to cross my mind.

3) The constant remarks made on babies weight.. I am a victim to this myself time and time again. Comments like 'Oh gosh he is very small..how often do you feed him? Are you sure he is gettin enough?' Makes you feel like 100% cr@p (cr@p)!!

4) Do I have enough milk? Worrying about supply when really there is nothing to worry about.. When your breast milk establishes I think this crosses most womens minds.

Obviously though there is the medical reasons as to why some women do not breastfeed and :hugs: to those women.

But I think that we should NOT give up unless we know for a FACT our child is not getting enough and have had more then one GP, CHN or whatever's opinion on this.

:yelclap: FOR THE BOOBIE JUICE!!

nemosmum

07-09-2007, 18:33

Love this thread...ive read all the posts and you all have such wonderful things to say:yelclap:

I have bfed two babies and have had two totally different experiences

my first foray into the world of bfing was hard and I wanted to give up countless times

why did I go on.....
Support from my DH he was so pumped about me bfing and was so supportive and proud of me doing it

Knowledge that breast was best

Mothers guilt that I needed to provide the best for my baby

My second time bfing experience has been so amazing
and I believe its because I had knowledge, support and a beautiful drug free birth where I had skin to skin contact with bubs straight away, bf straight away and was never seperated from my babe

I believe knowledge+support = success

Mums AND dads need the education about breast milk and its value both nutritionally and emotionally
+
Support both professional and family based

demeter

07-09-2007, 18:40

and I believe its because I had knowledge, support and a beautiful drug free birth where I had skin to skin contact with bubs straight away, bf straight away and was never seperated from my babe

I've heard (I don't think in this thread) a lot of people talk about there being a link between being able to sufficiently bond with the baby (eg through skin to skin contact, not being separate, both of you being drug free) and the comfort/ease of BFing. But I can't remember where I read it :rolleyes:

mysonroger

07-09-2007, 19:08

[QUOTE=stellarella;1875244]
Current statistics state that only 10% of mothers exclusively BF until 6 months as recommended by the WHO. [QUOTE]

i don't know if i believe that.... probably not. where did that figure come from and how did they derive it?

i BF for over 6 months each child but if you asked me did i exclusively breast feed for 6 months, then no, because i introduced solids early. might not be what WHO recommend, but they never met my kids and didn't know what was individually right for them. most babies are starting solids by 6 months or before.. even introducing just one bottle formula per day, for whatever reason, means you no longer fit into 'exclusive BFing ' category, but its still a good result to BF 5 out of 6 feeds per day, IMO. its not excellent, but its good.

i hardly saw anyone FF, so maybe i just happen to know all the ladies that fall in the 10% group.

just thought i'd throw in a different perspective on how this statistic came about.

stellarella

07-09-2007, 19:16

I've heard (I don't think in this thread) a lot of people talk about there being a link between being able to sufficiently bond with the baby (eg through skin to skin contact, not being separate, both of you being drug free) and the comfort/ease of BFing. But I can't remember where I read it :rolleyes:

Its common sense that a drug free mum and bub and a trauma free birth and immediate skin on skin contact is going to assist the BFing relationship.

I believe it is very important.

I know lots of people say "Well I had every drug available" or "I had a c/sec and I bonded fine and BFing was fine"...and I know this to be true in some cases because I had an epidural and we did bond and BFeed fine but I think we have to acknowledge that over all the birth does play a very important role in the relationship between mother and child, especially the Bfing relationship. :yes:

stellarella

07-09-2007, 19:21

abibelsmum

07-09-2007, 19:26

I thought I'd add my two cents in.

1) Bottle feeding is pervasive in society - Most of the kids books I have which show a baby (not toddler) being fed have the baby being fed by a bottle. The cloth baby book my 4.5 month old is looking at has a picture of a cube, banana, telephone (old fashioned), cat, clock and a bottle. When baby dolls are sold they often come with bottles to feed them with.

2) I don't think mothers are given realistic information on the pain and effort it takes to establish a breastfeeding relationship. Mothers are told that it doesn't hurt very much, or that it is bad attachment that causes the pain. So when it does start to hurt mothers feel they must be doing something wrong, rather than a simple, "Yes it does hurt, but you are doing everything fine and it will get easier with practise".

3) Big supermarkets aren't interested in promoting breastfeeding. When DD1 was 6 months old I started going to uni once a week. I was having trouble expressing enough to give her a full meal, so once a week she had a bottle of formula. I was using formula sachets which I could only get in certain chemists since the big supermarkets in my area would only stock the tins of formula. I didn't want to buy a tin as it would have been a waste to throw out most of it because it would have gone out of date but some people might feel they should just keep using the tin since they had already spent the money on it.

4) Some women are not comfortable about BFing in public. We need ways to help them feel more comfortable - the increase in clothes designed for nursing mothers certainly helps.

5) Those dreaded weight charts! It takes fortitude to keep BFing a child whose weight gain drops below the percentile it has been on.

SalTheGal

07-09-2007, 19:35

I haven't read all the responses so far so forgive me if I repeat somethings!

I think that it is simply too easy to give up.

I mean coming from someone who did both- FF just seemed easier to me!

There is a major lack of education out there- I mean no-one even prepared me for the simple agony of milk coming in, let alone all the other dramas that can go along with early days feeding.

Coming up to six months and my DS was still feeding for 30-45mins at a time, yet he would guzzle a bottle in 5mins flat. He never drew his feeds out, if anything he seemed to want them more often, I was worried about my supply becuase there always seems to be so much talk about "supply issues" these days- in hind sight I don't know that this was necessarily a problem.

He was a big baby born, and so many people used to talk about him needing top ups cause "he was a big boy"

I also think that we as a society are too selfish and think of ourselves and implications to ourselves too much. I wanted my nights back, I wanted to be able to have a few drinks! I wanted to go back to work, and not have to "waste" my lunch hour expressing....Me Me Me!!!

And really the formula companies have done an exemplary job at promoting formula as nearly as good as breast....I used to work in a pharmacy- and the reps had me totally sold on the merits of formula.

I would also be interested to hear how many people gave up earlier with their first born, I know come hell or high water I am going t do better next time!!

Sorry for the ramble!! Very interesting thread!

07-09-2007, 19:41

Hey Stella, probably shouldn't poke my nose in here, but from another source, I found a different figure, it is still woeful, but is a LITTLE better...

Quote:
Follow through action to increase breastfeeding rates in Australia
August 2007 On 9 August, the Federal Parliament Standing Committee on Health and Ageing released their report on their inquiry into breastfeeding in Australia. The report finds that breastfeeding is the best possible start to a baby�s health where it is possible and made 22 recommendations for the Australian Government and Parliament to improve breastfeeding rates in Australia.

The full report by the Committee can be downloaded from :
http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/haa/breastfeeding/index.htm
The World Health Organisation and UNICEF recommend that babies be exclusively breastfed until six months of age.

In Australia, while 83% of mothers attempt to breastfeed from birth only 18% continue up to six months. In Sweden and Norway it is 53% and 50% respectively of mothers who are still breastfeeding at six months.
Factors influencing the decision to breastfeed The Parliamentary Committee acknowledged that there were many factors that effected a mother�s decision whether or not to breastfeed and the duration, including what their partner and the community around her think of breastfeeding. Also, interactions with health professionals and
provision of breastfeeding support have an effect on the duration of breastfeeding. The Committee indicated that the effect of having to return to work was also important on breastfeeding duration. It
believed greater levels of support were needed for mothers that want to breastfeed.
Health budget savings from breastfeeding
There are cost savings to the health system by increasing breastfeeding rates. The Committee quoted a 1999 US study finding that for every 1,000 babies never breastfed (compared to 1,000 babies exclusively breastfed), there were more than 2,000 extra visits to the doctor, 212 extra days of hospitalisation and 609 extra prescriptions in the first year of life. Increasing breastfeeding frees up health budgets to be used elsewhere to meet other pressing needs.

Committee finds that companies engage in unethical marketing practices
The Committee found that infant formula manufacturers in Australia �advertise their products in a manner which would breach the WHO Code [World Health Organisation International Code of Marketing of Breastmilk Substitutes]�.
The Committee stated that:
�The committee recognises that the implementation of the WHO Code is a significant action but believes that if the Commonwealth Government wants to achieve the goal of 80 per cent of mothers exclusively breastfeeding for the first six months of their baby�s life, the WHO Code needs to be implemented in Australia. The committee recommends
accordingly.�

The Justice and International Mission Unit submission is extensively quoted in the Committee report with regards to the unethical marketing practices of infant formula manufacturers. Members of the Uniting Church and the community had provided the Justice and International Mission Unit with hundreds of examples of unethical marketing activities of baby food companies that would help to undermine the right of women to make an informed choice about breastfeeding free from commercial interests.

Justice and International Mission Unit The Committee specifically expressed concern at the evidence �of manufacturers using health professionals as surrogate marketers of their products via distribution
of free infant formula sample packs to new mothers�.

The Committee also expressed concern that the marketing practices of retailers such as pharmacies and supermarkets and the marketing of bottles and teats, raising the concern that the WHO Code was being breached by these activities.

Inadequacy of the existing voluntary industry code The Committee was scathing in their criticism of the inadequacy of the current voluntary code, The Marketing in Australia of Infant Formulas:
Manufacturers and Importers Agreement (MAIF), that infant formula manufacturers in Australia are supposed to adhere to in their marketing of infant formula. There is a lack of transparency around how breaches of the industry code are dealt with and the lack of any real penalties allow companies to breach the code with impunity.

Squeegee

07-09-2007, 19:52

Wow...after reading all of the posts I'm wrecked!!!:laughing: I think everyone has had great things to say. I live in a medium sized country town on the midnorth coast of NSW. I am astonished at the number of mums who have given birth at the local hospital who have come down with mastitis. In just the mums I know at least 50% have had at least one bout of mastitis. When asked they say the midwives were run off their feet and simply didn't have the time to spend with these new mums.

I feel so frustrated that it has to be this way as even after a long night labouring and an emergency c, I had great support in hosp. I didn't get the hang of it until 5 days after bubs was born and then last 15 months when she weaned herself. I gave birth in Sydney though!

:smiliedance: Hooray for supportive mummies educating each other about their amazing breastaurants!!:smiliedance:

MilkOnTap

07-09-2007, 19:54

Today I met up with some friends of ours who hadn't yet met Jedd. The girl is a real 'know-it-all', has no children, has nothing to do with children, but apparantly 'knows everything about motherhood!' (Yes she actually SAID that!)

Jedd woke up and was ready for a feed, and as I began to prepare myself to feed him (unclipping bra etc) she made a face at me and said, that she was going!

She then later on said that she has no interest in breastfeeding once she has a child and that it all seems too hard. I was absolutely flabbergasted! One that she was blatantly rude to me face-to-face, and two that any children she has will never experience the benefits of breastmilk :(

After that, it made me EVEN prouder that Jedd was wearing a shirt saying "I'm a tits man!" (which she also commented on :rolleyes:)

MilkOnTap

07-09-2007, 19:55

Current statistics state that only 10% of mothers exclusively BF until 6 months as recommended by the WHO.

I breastfeed EVERY feed except for one feed before Jedd goes to sleep. Does this exclude me from this 10%?

stellarella

07-09-2007, 20:14

I breastfeed EVERY feed except for one feed before Jedd goes to sleep. Does this exclude me from this 10%?

For the purposes of this statistic yes it would exclude you. Exclusively means nothing else except breast milk.

The statistic I find more worrying is the other one. That by 6 months 70% of mothers are not BFing at all. So only 30% are giving some amount of breast milk.

Beany

07-09-2007, 20:19

Where would I fit in with the statistics, I wonder ...

Asher got a few bottles in the first three week, a few less for the next 2 weeks and maybe 3 in total for 3 weeks after that and then exclusively breastfed until he was 6 months.

Just to make it difficult for you all :D

mysonroger

07-09-2007, 20:51

Hi mysonroger. :wave:

The issue in this thread is not that particular statistic. I will leave it up to you if you dont want to believe it. Thats fine.

We are discussing why the BFing rate in Australia is so low.

This is a thread for positive discussion not arguing or disregarding.

hang on , are you not allowed to ask where the stats came from? there are mothers feel excluded already by way of the wording of the question, even though, like me , they were doing a fantastic job breastfeeding, like many mothers. the wording of the question may not paint a very realistic picture that's truly representative of what's going on. can you tell i was a marketing student.

you asked for all perspectives and that's mine.

squiglet

07-09-2007, 20:55

When I was pregnant I didn't think about it, I was just going to bf. Thats how you feed a baby.
But then it started. From other mums of all people.
This and that, gloom and so on. Like my breasts were doomed to fail from the start.
I didn't listen.

I had no trouble with establishing feeding.
I did get a bit of a fussy baby though. It makes it a public spectical feeding around others as she is always pulling off:o

But it has taken me months to work up the courage to feed in the "open". Not hiden away at home or in the bf rooms at the supermarket.
I'm now feeding anywere that is comfortable. It's great. I haven't had one negative look (for some reason I'm always expecting someone to frown at me).

I think bf rates are so low because of the marketing and use of formula. Bf just isn't put out there on tv or in magazines. It hasn't got that glamour factor that formula has.
We need to see more bf mums on tv, in movies, at the shops ect.

missie_mack

07-09-2007, 21:02

hang on , are you not allowed to ask where the stats came from? there are mothers feel excluded already by way of the wording of the question, even though, like me , they were doing a fantastic job breastfeeding, like many mothers. the wording of the question may not paint a very realistic picture that's truly representative of what's going on.

Thats a fair call. Really you can make any statistic look worse than it is if you narrow down the fields.
As a FF (not by choice) For at least the first 6 months and even now I always feel like I was in the minority in the groups of mothers I know with children similar ages to my son. I dont really know how many of them were exclusive feeders

Funkychicken

07-09-2007, 21:28

I have to firstly say that I haven't read this thread in it's entirety but I have covered a fair bit of it.

I am often frustrated by the fact that we don't have or can't have advertising of BF in mainstream media, such as TV, womens glossies, billborads etc...

But, nor do we have the other end of the scale-formula feeding ads.

So, why, if both BF and FF receives the same amount of 'honest' advertising, do people still feel so uncomfortable with a woman breastfeeding and really comfortable with a woman bottle feeding?

Which brings me to the topic of 'subtle' advertising. Now this can be done through the obvious places-names of formula companies splashed everywhere (they make so many other products too), on paraphernalia such as pens, paper, etc...but one of the biggest, and often overlooked, places that FF is advertised is with children's toys-namely dolls. How many dolls are out there on the market that come with little bottles? And the accessories that can be purchased to go with these dolls usually begins with bottles. There are ones that are 'magic' (they have disappearing milk), ones that can really hold liquid and really be fed to the doll, ones that are for display only, ones that are specially shaped for small hands to hold, the list can go on...
Our little girls (and boys!) are being shown from such a young age that bottles are the norm for babies and that all babies have bottles.

There are a lot of people/companies that I feel should own a certain amount of responsibility for this but I am also of the belief that we are our children's first teachers and we can choose whether or not to allow our children to believe this.

MilkOnTap

07-09-2007, 21:37

Which brings me to the topic of 'subtle' advertising. Now this can be done through the obvious places-names of formula companies splashed everywhere (they make so many other products too), on paraphernalia such as pens, paper, etc...but one of the biggest, and often overlooked, places that FF is advertised is with children's toys-namely dolls. How many dolls are out there on the market that come with little bottles? And the accessories that can be purchased to go with these dolls usually begins with bottles. There are ones that are 'magic' (they have disappearing milk), ones that can really hold liquid and really be fed to the doll, ones that are for display only, ones that are specially shaped for small hands to hold, the list can go on...
Our little girls (and boys!) are being shown from such a young age that bottles are the norm for babies and that all babies have bottles

Okay - this might seem completely random, but for some reason this makes me think of the Simpsons...

Marge bottle feeds Maggie.

The Simpsons is probably the most popular animated television series ever! THIS is subtle advertising....

Funkychicken

07-09-2007, 21:41

Okay - this might seem completely random, but for some reason this makes me think of the Simpsons...

Marge bottle feeds Maggie.

The Simpsons is probably the most popular animated television series ever! THIS is subtle advertising....
Yup, this is what I mean by subtle advertising. Try to think of one TV show that has a BF mum and if there is one, I will guarantee that there is an issue that makes the BFing an actual topic, not just a in-passing thing.

There are many movies that come to mind where a mother is bottle feeding her baby but it isn't really anything to do with the story-line, whereas if it were a mum BF, it would be a part of the story-line.

Ange&Seth

07-09-2007, 21:43

Marge bottle feeds Maggie.

Really? I've never seen Maggie have anything in her mouth but a dummy :confused:

moonblossom

07-09-2007, 21:54

Progress may be slow, but it is definately improving. I had my first son 26 years ago and I was so surprised to see that I was the ONLY one breastfeeding. The hospital supplied bottles, formula etc for free. I was only 18, but already knew the benefits of breastfeeding. When I was out and breastfeeding him, there was no such thing as nursing rooms etc, so i would hang a blanket over my shoulder, but I got glared at, and even sometimes told off.

My youngest is 13 months, and still breastfeeding. I see so many people breastfeeding now, it makes my heart sing. I feed him in public, and nobody bats an eyelid (not in my experience anyway)...I love seeing other mummies feeding their children when I'm out, it re enforces that I was right all the way along.

Believe me, the tide is turning, and mothers are breastfeeding more...:smiliedance:

Beany

07-09-2007, 21:55

Funkychicken

07-09-2007, 22:00

You know, the only time I can think of in recent popular culture where breastfeeding was even remotely touched upon is ER. Not only breastfeeding but also expressing and thereby implying that any future bottles we may see are filled with EBM :thumbsup:
When I was typing the above post, I was trying to think of a movie that talked about breast milk in conversation and I kept coming back to Look Who's Talking. But although breast milk is talked about (and in a way this is a good, positive promotion) it is because the star swigs some milk out of the fridge and from another room comes the comment, "Don't drink the lik on the fridge, it's breastmilk!" He then splurts it out and makes lots of ewwwwing noise. Could be seen as funny....could be seen as viewing breast milk as some sort of icky liquid, not to be drunk. Hmmm...

Beany

07-09-2007, 22:12

There's a site somewhere called "Steve Don't Eat It!" where the guy goes about eating and drinking the foulest things he comes across. This includes canned pig skin, infected corn (which is apparently a delicacy in some parts), prison wine (made using smelly old socks) and such like items.

One of the things he consumed and made a big fuss about was breast milk.

Seriously, fresh milk from his wife.

:no:

missie_mack

07-09-2007, 22:19

You know, the only time I can think of in recent popular culture where breastfeeding was even remotely touched upon is ER. Not only breastfeeding but also expressing and thereby implying that any future bottles we may see are filled with EBM :thumbsup:

Im sure Close to Home which was another legal court type show on tv (and Im sure I seen back again) talked about her going back to work at 6 weeks and needing a fridge to express her milk.

Who can forget Meet the Fockers and how he fed the grandson expressed breast milk and had mould taken of her boob while she was on holidays so the little one wouldnt get nipple confusion!

Funkychicken

07-09-2007, 22:26

I

Who can forget Meet the Fockers and how he fed the grandson expressed breast milk and had mould taken of her boob while she was on holidays so the little one wouldnt get nipple confusion!

:laughing::laughing: yes, I remember this. I think it was a great BF promotion. Probably made many people squirm but it sure got a message across! :yes:

declansmum

07-09-2007, 22:37

I haven't read through the previous posts and someone has probally already said what I have to say...

I think that there is a few major factors in my experience that are putting women off.

1) Whilst in hospital when the midwifes were 'teaching' me to breastfeed they made me feel like a failure, how they told me to hold him was uncomfortable and brought me to tears everytime. The comments they make, the looks and them being so rough with both your breast and your child makes you feel inadequate.. The different things each midwife is telling you.. do it this way then the next one comes along what are you doing do it this way.. It just confuses you and it made me so upset I was on the verge of giving up. Once I got home I found what was comfortable for US.

2) 'FORMULA FED BABIES SLEEP LONGER' I am constantly told this and everytime I hear it I think god no wonder so many mums give in.. With the stress and sleep deprivation that comes with these little beings it is quite the temptation. I know there has been nights were Kaid has refused to sleep and the thought of giving him a formula bottle has crossed my mind LUCKILY I think twice and realise what a silly thing to cross my mind.

3) The constant remarks made on babies weight.. I am a victim to this myself time and time again. Comments like 'Oh gosh he is very small..how often do you feed him? Are you sure he is gettin enough?' Makes you feel like 100% cr@p!!

4) Do I have enough milk? Worrying about supply when really there is nothing to worry about.. When your breast milk establishes I think this crosses most womens minds.

Obviously though there is the medical reasons as to why some women do not breastfeed and :hugs: to those women.

But I think that we should NOT give up unless we know for a FACT our child is not getting enough and have had more then one GP, CHN or whatever's opinion on this.

:yelclap: FOR THE BOOBIE JUICE!!

WOW!!! So True. WELL DONE ELLE.:yelclap:

Freya

07-09-2007, 23:23

Its common sense that a drug free mum and bub and a trauma free birth and immediate skin on skin contact is going to assist the BFing relationship.

I believe it is very important.

I know lots of people say "Well I had every drug available" or "I had a c/sec and I bonded fine and BFing was fine"...and I know this to be true in some cases because I had an epidural and we did bond and BFeed fine but I think we have to acknowledge that over all the birth does play a very important role in the relationship between mother and child, especially the Bfing relationship. :yes:

Wow I had never thought of that... I had a trauma free drug free labour and as soon he I held him the second he came out (i gave labor on all fours so just was kneeling as soon as he came out and held him) and when I laid down he dead set crawled up and onto my chest and starting suckling on my boob... It was amazing! He has always loved the boobie and had great 'special K' attachment... So my labor could have helped with all of that, interesting.:detective:

Also had to add how much it saddens me being a very young mum majority of the other teen mums I know do not breastfeed... One girl once said to me are you serious thats gross the way technology is these days formula is the same if not better! I was shocked how can people be so nieve? My entire life I have known breast is best, in saying that though I did have a very positive mum she fed all 3 of us till we were 2 and my grandma fed all 6 kids including twins till they were 1 or 2.. As soon as I have the time I am so going to get myself out there to support young mums and really try to inform them more about the benefits of breastfeeding not just for their child but also for themselves... Also alot of the young mums I know say thats discusting or but it will ruin your boobs.. LOL yeh it does but it is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO worth it!!!:thumbsup:

Bearskin

08-09-2007, 00:17

2) 'FORMULA FED BABIES SLEEP LONGER' I am constantly told this and everytime I hear it I think god no wonder so many mums give in.. With the stress and sleep deprivation that comes with these little beings it is quite the temptation. I know there has been nights were Kaid has refused to sleep and the thought of giving him a formula bottle has crossed my mind LUCKILY I think twice and realise what a silly thing to cross my mind.

Thats a great comment Elle - that really sums up what I'm thinking at the moment. As much as there are myths about breastfeeding there are also many myths and misunderstandings about FF, like your comment above.

From a social perspective, so many friends/mothers advised me to top up with FF at night to get DD to sleep, wean as DD was such a poor sleeper and, as a newborn, poor weight gainer too. DD was very refluxy and screamed after every feed (Are you eating curries and onions Michelle? :rolleyes: if you FF you could eat what you liked) ; well meaning friends advised me to FF so I could thicken formula to counteract the reflux. Not one friend (at the time) could actually offer me advice about BFing as none of them had BF past 8 weeks. Only from the ABA did I find support to continue BFing and deal with lack of sleep, bouts of screaming and getting DD weighed every week my MCHN.

Prior to having DD I was given bottles, a steriliser and dummies. One neighbour gave me a packet of breastpads but most people around me assumed I would bottle feed at one time or another. As a first time mum, the pressure I felt was enormous to FF (so I joined the ABA and met some mums who did BF) With my friends having bubs now I give them a subscription to the ABA if they are keen to BF :)

I read the thread in the FF section about advantages to FF (I'm not being critical - its a comment about information offered); many of the advantages listed by the posters are actually factually incorrect or possibly a myth yet so many women continue to believe that this information may be correct.

FF has become so normalised, both within our media, entertainment and social lives. Try and purchase a baby doll for your child; most have bottles or dummies in the package. As a PP said, Maggie in The Simpsons is bottle fed. Watch some "Hollywood" films and you will likely see bottle feeding - 'Walk the Line' and 'Brokeback Mountain' are two I can think of right now (of course they are not all like that - Meet the Fockers is a great example of the problems associated with of nipple confusion :laughing: and a good laugh at the same time). Read a 'chick lit' novel by somelike Marion Keyes (eg 'Watermelon') or Jane Green ("the Other Woman') and try and find a positive comment about BFing - you cannot as BFing is portrayed as old fashioned, hippy like and unnecessary. Even Kaz Cooke's pregnancy and parenting books are not that encouraging or factual about breastfeeding, especially extended breastfeeding (where was that section again?).

Freya

08-09-2007, 00:22

It is actually quite freaky how it has been mention in this thread about how there is never BF in movies, advertisements ect.

The other night I was laying in bed feeding kaid when I thought hey I dont think I have ever seen breastfeeding in a movie... I thought could it be that it would be quite odd for a women to pretend to breastfeed a child? :detective:

Even still it is not even mentioned... The only time I have seen BF on a tv screen was when I watch a dvd on breastfeeding whilst in hospital lol!! It is tragic!!!!:thumbsdown:

Harlequin

08-09-2007, 00:25

The only breastfeeding in a movie that I can remember off the top of my head is in The Hand That Rocks the Cradle, but that's when the psycho is breastfeeding the woman's baby. O_o

I don't think it would be hard to pretend to bf a child. You don't even need to see much of the child at all if its rugged up.

It's odd, I watched Knocked Up recently. You'd think if they can show a vagina with a babies head coming out of it in a movie, they can show someone breastfeeding.

Freya

08-09-2007, 00:29

hayleymummy2jakob

08-09-2007, 01:00

i couldnt breastfeed due to ds being sick with pyloric stenosis and he could not suck..
But i do know when i was in hospital one midwive showed me one was to breastfeed then next feed i would do it the same way and another midwive would tell me that that was wrong and do it this way this went on for 2 days
it totally wore me down and not to mention ds was sick and couldnt suck anyway but i felt belittled as a mother like they thought i could not feed my son sufficiently
ok so enough about me going on i think that wether you do or dont has a lot to do with your stay in hospital if you are made to feel like you arnt providing this little human being with sufficient milk to keep them going well you arnt going to belive that you can do it on your own once you leave hospital
and the rates of bfing could be so low is because more and more mothers a going to work after have bubs
ok that probs did not make any sence lol

moonblossom

08-09-2007, 01:03

Sometimes I wonder if mothers are so overly stressed about getting breastfeeding right, that they don't know that they actually are.

hayleymummy2jakob

08-09-2007, 02:49

i fully agree with you moonblossom

Funkychicken

08-09-2007, 07:41

Sometimes I wonder if mothers are so overly stressed about getting breastfeeding right, that they don't know that they actually are.
I think you have hit on something really important here. Many mums are very concerned about whether they are doing it right or whether the baby is doing it right and more often than not, they are doing just fine.
I think the possible problems that may crop up when a mum begins breastfeeding for the first time are talked about so much that some mums feel that if they don't face problems, they must be doing something wrong!
I find this really sad and I hope that the message we, as BFing mother's, are trying to get across is one of positivity and support, not a message of "What if's?"

stellarella

08-09-2007, 07:57

There is even an ad on tellie at the moment about an intuitive air-conditioner and the mum is going to get the baby a bottle but when she gets back into the room he already has one. Supposedly the intuitive air-con got it for him :rolleyes: :laughing:

There is a shot of the baby laying on the lounge feeding himself a bottle....I just cringe every time I see it. Why couldnt it just have a been a snack or something instead of a bottle?

I remember when Oscar was literally a few days old we went to the grocery store and an innocent conversation ensued between me and the checkout chick. She asked me if he was sleeping through and I said "Ummmmmmm, he is 3 days old"...anyway she suggested I start giving him a top up of formula at night to help him sleep. I was like WTF??? :eek:

My response must have been a bit rude because DP said something aboout it. I said "Can you believe that woman who doesnt even know me is suggesting I give him formula?"...and he said "Oh dont worry about it, shes just trying to be helpful, just nod and smile"....and I thought THANK CHRIST I have enough confidence and support to BF otherwise the pressure from random people to FF is intense.

It infiltrates every aspect of our lives.

stellarella

08-09-2007, 08:01

I think you have hit on something really important here. Many mums are very concerned about whether they are doing it right or whether the baby is doing it right and more often than not, they are doing just fine.
I think the possible problems that may crop up when a mum begins breastfeeding for the first time are talked about so much that some mums feel that if they don't face problems, they must be doing something wrong!
I find this really sad and I hope that the message we, as BFing mother's, are trying to get across is one of positivity and support, not a message of "What if's?"

I agree with this....

Why is my baby wanting to feed every hour around the clock? He must be starving, I must have no milk...

Why is it sore when he attaches? I must be doing it wrong.

Why isnt he sleeping from 7pm to 7am at 2 weeks old? He must not be satisfied. Again, I must have no milk. I better give him a top up...but now I have less milk becuase I'm not nursing enough..

Its self perpetuating.

our3boys

08-09-2007, 08:10

i didnt breast feed for very long with luke and it is def the biggest regret of my life i still get down to this day when i think about it. my reasons was because i didnt get enough possitive information and help at the hospital after i had luke there was a flood on and there was two nurses in the whole hospital and very rarely saw any as a young first time mum i was unable to get him to latch on properly then when he did it was wrong and i ended up with mastitus. personally i think country areas need to have more help available to mothers trying to breastfeed i got no help at all and it ended with giving up which if i could do again i would of never gave up.

nemosmum

08-09-2007, 08:16

Wow I had never thought of that... I had a trauma free drug free labour and as soon he I held him the second he came out (i gave labor on all fours so just was kneeling as soon as he came out and held him) and when I laid down he dead set crawled up and onto my chest and starting suckling on my boob... It was amazing! He has always loved the boobie and had great 'special K' attachment... So my labor could have helped with all of that, interesting.:detective:

:

That does sound amazing!
What a wonderful birth story to tell your bub when they are older
:yelclap:

I had a hideous birth with all the drugs for my first and didnt get to hold my baby for about 10hrs after wards
I didnt have any physical problems bfing BUT emotionally I had no bond with my babe for months I felt so disconnected and switched off and hated bfing

My second like ive said before was so blissful in that I was totally present in the moment of her birth and got to hold her straight away and feed her, the instant lovely bond I had heard about and envied for so long was finally mine to experience

It does make a HUGE difference imo:)

lillyflower04

08-09-2007, 08:16

personally i think country areas need to have more help available to mothers trying to breastfeed i got no help at all and it ended with giving up which if i could do again i would of never gave up.

:yelclap: Totally agree. We live out bush and we have no access to any LC's. I'd never even heard of an LC until I went to a forum a few years ago :eek: :o Rural communities have so little access to a wide variety of medical services. My dad (who's a country boy) has said it stinks because he pays as much tax as his city dwelling fellow citizens but gets no access to anything!

nemosmum

08-09-2007, 08:19

Freya

08-09-2007, 10:34

Wow moonbloosom you really hit the nail on the head! It is a sh!tload of pressure that must affect us subconciously...

Harlequin

08-09-2007, 11:09

I must be weird or something because I felt no pressure whatsoever to bf.
That said, I was asked by my dr if I planned on it and I said yes so perhaps thats why there was no pressure?

When Ava was born and we were back in the room I just put her on my boob and the midwives helped me attach her (my boobs were about twice the size of her head so it was hard).
I had cracked bleedy nipples and all that but it never occurred to me to give up bfing her. To me breastfeeding was just what you do when you have a baby.
I just got advice from the nurses and got her attaching properly. Eventually my nipples got better and everything was fine.

I remember a midwife coming in and squeezing my nipple to get colostrum and shoving it in ava's mouth... which would probably be a little confronting or pushy to some but I just took it as her trying to help. *shrug*

rachdent

08-09-2007, 23:20

Great topic! Thanks for starting it. I wrote a book about breastfeeding because of just this. So many friends wanted to breastfeed but then ended up stopping so soon after having a baby and i wanted to know why?

Through surveys and receiving oodles of personal information, my opinion is that it's mostly a lack of information and adequate support in the time when breastfeeding is being established. Often people receive different advice from loads of people and don't know what it right. Things happen (such as sore nipples or long feeds) and they aren't informed properly about the hows and whys of these issues.

I wrote my book with a lactation consultant and she recently commented that there SHOULDN'T be so many problems/issues with breastfeeding, but because of our culture and health practices problems arise.

I think the reason people stop breastfeeding are often cultural. Breastfeeding often does not fit into western ideals...

Anyway I'm getting tired now and probably aren't making much sense... but thanks for raising this issue. I might discuss it on my blog.

cheezelkat

09-09-2007, 12:45

I agree with everything said. New mothers are so paranoid about weight gain/sleeping etc its so easy to blame breastmilk for being inadequate. I feel very blessed that I had a really great supoort network from the local breastfeeding clinic. DS was a slow weight gainer and fed lots and lots - nut no one every once suggested formula feeding until my doctor told me breastmilk had no nutrition after 6 months and it was best I wean.

:hair:

I've been breastfeeding for 20 months now and I see the benefits everyday :yes:

MordecaiAliVanAllenO'Shea

10-09-2007, 18:20

I agree with the problem of conflicting advice in hospitals. I also have yet to find a GP who gave informed advice about breastfeeding - fortunately I had read a lot and was confident about my breastfeeding so I was able to ignore them.

But aside from this, I think the problem is deeper routed in our society. Firstly women today have so many issues about our bodies - including our looks etc and meeting an ideal, that I think we just dont have the confidence that our bodies can do this - I have heard so many mums say in relation to any problem "maybe I dont have enough milk" when sometimes it has even been the complete opposite. If a baby is small mums are told oh they need formula your milk is not good enough, whereas if a baby is big instead of saying wow that baby is thriving on breastmilk mums are told that is such a big baby they will need formula to satisfy them.

The other change in our society is that we have lost the sense of community, in particular the community of women passing on their knowledge about "women's business." A generation or two back I know there was a time when women were told by health professionals that formula was BETTER for their children than breastmilk (perhaps during the depression dr's were worried about mums poor nutrition???). So in a lot of families there have been a generation or two that didnt breastfeed and the cultural knowledge has been lost so we have to rely on health professionals to help us who may not be as sensitive to us, our personalities and our needs. Also there is always motherguilt - if our mums couldnt breastfeed the may not be supportive because they may see your persistence at breastfeeding as criticism of their decision to formula feed.

I was fortunate in that although my mother didnt breastfeed (was told we were starving - who knows?) she always wished she could have and told us this so for my sister and I although we were FF we were raised with the idea that bf is something wonderful and special and desirable. Mum also regrets that she couldnt help or advise us because she has no knowledge about it and loves to watch us bfing our children.

stellarella

10-09-2007, 18:23

In light of the recent Facebook thread and some of the disappointing attitudes I thought I'd bump this up and get it going again.

I didnt realise so many people found BFing images/public BFing offensive. :gloomy:

I find it really sad that this is what mothers are up against.

The disapproval permeates every facet of society.

As much as I hear "I fully support Bfing" there is always a but....but it should be done discreetly...but it is private...but there should be no nipple exposed...

Actions speak louder than words, so while its easy to go around proclaiming to be supportive of BFing when it comes to the crunch the reality is very different. :mad:

MordecaiAliVanAllenO'Shea

10-09-2007, 18:33

sorry - thought of more!

I also think our modern lifestyle puts so many pressures and expectation on mothers its hard to devote the time to establishing breastfeeding, and families are spread out and neighbours dont really know each other as well so there are not as many occurrences of people dropping over casseroles, helping out around the house or with younger children so the mother can focus on her new baby.

And of course as others have said there are not enough images of mums breastfeeding or mums breastfeeding older bubs in particular to normalise it.

Ok, sorry for going on so long, thats my two cents worth:o

fifipirko

10-09-2007, 18:39

Hmm I have not read all stories on here, but

I had very good pregnancy, I loved the labour and being with my baby at the end was the best. We went home the same night. Just my husband, myself and baby .. it was great experience. I had not troubles, felt very good, happy had no medication and yet I was not able to breastfeed. I had support with me every day. We tried everything and I mean everything. At the end of week one Zoya lost 22% of her body weight since birth. She looked horrible, but we did not realise, I can just see it now from the photos. My milk came and went as quickly. I tried to express but the milk supply was not even countable on millilitres .. it was five to ten drops and decreasing . By the end of week two there was nothing.

draught

10-09-2007, 19:08

My two cents worth - part of the problem, I think, is that we are the children of a number of generations who were encouraged to formula feed - it was when the marketing companies were in overdrive, telling mothers that formula was better for babies etc and it was the 'done thing' in many communities. So when our mothers see us struggling, the natural reaction of many of them is to draw on their own experience and encourage their daughters to formula feed. So the marketing of the 60s and 70s continues to have an effect today.

(I should note that my own mother breastfed and has been supportive of myself and my sisters but I read so many stories on here of mothers being the ones to suggest formula that I think there must be something in this.)

I also think that young women need to be exposed to breastfeeding as teenagers - when they are developing their body self image etc. So many young women today seem to think that breasts are for sexual purposes only and that feeding is 'yuck' (for want of a better word!)

As for what I am doing? I feed whenever and wherever my baby needs it and talk to everyone who will listen about it!

RedPanda

10-09-2007, 19:19

For me, it was a lack of knowledge and preparation. I was constantly given the "Breast is Best" message, but very little practical advice. I called the hospital after my discharge because I was having problems, but was told I would have to wait two weeks to come back to the Mother & Baby unit for help.

The ABA's image has a lot to do with things too. They are often described as militant and nazi-ish, and to be honest, I was far too scared and emotional to call them. I've since been in contact with them and have only had positive experiences, but I think they definitely have an image problem, which is sad.

I also think that the early days of establishing breastfeeding are so important, yet most people are bombarded with visitors. I was not ready to breastfeed in front of people, so I would feed before and after visitors which is quite terrible really. I wish I'd had a lot more privacy and bonding time with my son without visits from well-meaning people who really weren't that close to me anyway. Immediate family and close friends are fine, but work colleagues etc should really just wait.

I'm rambling, but they were my barriers!

KapowSchazam

10-09-2007, 19:27

I agree with Hazellew! One of the main probs I had (apart from B not being able to attach/feed properly due to tongue-tie, which was about 80% of the prob) was well-meaning people coming over to see 'the baby' I was also not confident enough to feed infront of anyone other than (now X) DH, so even when people came to hospie, I put off feeding her until they left. I didn't have a supply prob, but ended up having let down probs cos it was all stressing me, and it was a vicious circle in the end

demeter

10-09-2007, 20:28

As much as I hear "I fully support Bfing" there is always a but....but it should be done discreetly...but it is private...but there should be no nipple exposed...

So true!
I also hear; "I support Bfing but only for 6 months, or only for 12 months".

I think the existence of breastfeeding shawls says it all; sure its fine to breastfeed in public, so long as you cover up (and yes I get that for some women it helps them breastfeed in public when they otherwise wouldn't, but its the same issue - many women aren't comfortable breastfeeding and the source of that discomfort is directly related to why BF rates are low).

All these messages make it to women and they all scream the same thing "BF is taboo"

Can you imagine travelling back in time and trying to explain to women that feeding their children is not acceptable, and that so many women worry that they can't feed their children, that the rates of breastfeeding are so low?

I was really struck by how bad it is when I read "Of the world's 4237 species of mamals, homo sapiens is the only one threatening nature's method of caring for its newborns!" - Francesca Naish and Janette Robers The Natural Way to Better Breastfeeding.

Sheer Bliss

10-09-2007, 20:41

I didnt realise so many people found BFing images/public BFing offensive. :gloomy:

I find it really sad that this is what mothers are up against.

I agree! I was out at lunch with 4 female friends yesterday, one was a mum who doesn't b/f. DS was getting cranky, so i went to feed him, and couldn't get the bow on my top undone to lift my shirt up to feed him, so i unbuttoned a few top buttons & pulled one side of my shirt down to feed him. They all looked away, and pretty much avoided looking at me while i was feeding him. I was as if i was doing something wrong (maybe they just didn't know where to look?) It was really sad - when my friend was bottlefeeding her bubba the others still looked at/spoke to her - they just honestly seemed uncomfortable looking at/talking to me while i was feeding. I don't feel annoyed at them - but at society as a whole - breastfeeding in thier eyes seems to be something that you shouldn't do in the company of others - let alone at a restaurant. It didn't help that it was lonestar & a minute after he started on the second side the loud music started for the dance - he of course had to bend his head back to try & see what was going on, leaving my boob just hanging there while he satisfied his curiosity. :laughing:

Nowhere

10-09-2007, 20:52

i suport women that choose to breast feed, i have no problems with it what so ever and im a formula feeding mum. i know breast is best for most babies,

JorBai

10-09-2007, 21:41

I dont know if this has been said but I think a way of helping increase the BF rates would be to have Lactation consultants as part of your antenatal care, perhaps a meeting with them in the last trimester and ongoing care after bub is born as part of the hospital system. I had an early discharge nurse come to my home each day after the birth til day 7, perhaps it would be good if a LC could do that too? Even if it was just once a week for the first month.

Alot of women dont know how to contact a LC or have the money to afford the help. If it was part of ALL hospitals and aftercare then perhaps people would be able to continue longer.

Funkychicken

10-09-2007, 21:43

Can you imagine travelling back in time and trying to explain to women that feeding their children is not acceptable, and that so many women worry that they can't feed their children, that the rates of breastfeeding are so low?

This is actually closer to the truth than than you think. In many underdeveloped countries this is exactly what a lot of new mums are hearing. To the rest of the world, western society looks to have it all-wealth, posessions, food, clean water, homes, happiness-all the things that we generally take for granted. And we have formula. So if we have all these exciting things in our lives, we must be doing something right....right?
The lure of a fat, happy, smiling baby proves too much for many of these new mums and they readily agree to 'trying' their babies on formula in the hope of producing a fat, happy, smiling baby, just like those westerner's have.

ETA-Sorry, I went way off topic there. But couldn't NOT say it. :o

BabyLs

11-09-2007, 06:48

I definately think a LC should visit you at home for the first couple of weeks at least. I called one both times and paid the money(which I didn't care about as I would have paid much more if it meant i would succeed). My LC called every day after and offered me plenty of encouragement, paid for her to come back a second time when I had Lara but just wasn't working. LC took much more care and told me exactly which way would be more successful regarding my breast shape and attachment. I had no idea and no midwife told me this in hospital.

Some people would say they couldn't afford it etc. so it should be provided free for the first 2 weeks etc. Then follow up calls to see how everything was going and heaps of encouragement.

demeter

11-09-2007, 08:42

This is actually closer to the truth than than you think. In many underdeveloped countries this is exactly what a lot of new mums are hearing. To the rest of the world, western society looks to have it all-wealth, posessions, food, clean water, homes, happiness-all the things that we generally take for granted. And we have formula. So if we have all these exciting things in our lives, we must be doing something right....right?
The lure of a fat, happy, smiling baby proves too much for many of these new mums and they readily agree to 'trying' their babies on formula in the hope of producing a fat, happy, smiling baby, just like those westerner's have.

ETA-Sorry, I went way off topic there. But couldn't NOT say it. :o

You're right in saying that Funkychicken (I nearly spelt your name wrong in a really bad way! :laughing:). It breaks my heart.

abibelsmum

11-09-2007, 09:52

I think the existence of breastfeeding shawls says it all; sure its fine to breastfeed in public, so long as you cover up (and yes I get that for some women it helps them breastfeed in public when they otherwise wouldn't, but its the same issue - many women aren't comfortable breastfeeding and the source of that discomfort is directly related to why BF rates are low).

All these messages make it to women and they all scream the same thing "BF is taboo"

They also say - "Isn't it nice to be all snug and warm feeding in a drafty shopping centre in winter!" and "Hmm... can't see much at the moment, maybe I'll finish my meal before trying to look around again with Mummy's nipple still in my mouth!"

draught

11-09-2007, 10:01

They also say - "Isn't it nice to be all snug and warm feeding in a drafty shopping centre in winter!" and "Hmm... can't see much at the moment, maybe I'll finish my meal before trying to look around again with Mummy's nipple still in my mouth!"

Yep - I have only ever covered my babies to help them stay attached and warm - that was what I always thought breastfeeding shawls were for - and keeping mum's shoulders warm which helps with let down etc.

Another thought I had is that LC's should be claimable on medicare, or even private health insurance, so enable more people to be able to access them.

twolittlegirls

11-09-2007, 10:04

I hope I don't get shot down for this but I think something that may help is counseling. One of the reasons I gave up so easily was because I hated it. Every time I had to feed my bubs, I felt uncomfortable and really didn't enjoy it. I think if hubby and I ever have another bub, I'll seek counseling to help me get over this so I can breastfeed as long as possible.

Please don't get me wrong, I don't think its wrong or gross or anything like that but I just hated doing it myself.

stellarella

11-09-2007, 10:15

reAllytee

11-09-2007, 10:29

Another thought I had is that LC's should be claimable on medicare, or even private health insurance, so enable more people to be able to access them.

Totally agree with this !

I am caught with using a LC who comes from a local hospital whereas i would love to hire an independant one !

Luckily the one i am using is decent & not at all like many who have no idea ( like some of our CHN's ! ) making us even more confused & questioning ourselves.

Its the same in hospy after we have had the baby the conflicting advice is ridiculous lucky for me this time i just kept them away by saying i knew what i was doing even though i didnt ! Yes maybe not a great thing but i could not handle getting 6 different bits of advice during that period when i knew it would do my head in !

twolittlegirls

11-09-2007, 10:53

twolittlegirls - you wont be shot down. :)

Its a incredibly valid point and I think you would be surprised how many women feel the same way as you. It has a lot to do with societal attitudes and perceptions. And individual circumsances.experiences play a part too.

Women dont like to feel tied down and held prisoner by their nursing babies, hell, even I have those moments. There is so much pressure on mothers to do everything. It almost feels like sitting on the lounge for half the day nursing is slacking off and we should be getting real things done.

Also, as much as we hate to admit it a huge reason is because at the end of the day a great deal of people cant differentiate BFing from the breasts and the fact they are so sexualised in Western society.

Its not always obvious how these factors play a part but it is ingrained in our psyche.

Thanks Stellarella, this is exactly how I feel. My in-laws are a very demanding family and its only been over the last month that I've been able to stand up for myself. When I was sitting down feeding, they continuously made me feel like it should only take me 5 minutes to feed and that bub should only feed every 4 hrs.
Maybe them been this way had something to do with me hating it. I'm not trying to lay blame, so don't get me wrong!

mumofKieran

11-09-2007, 11:06

I think one of the main problems also is that there is not even enough support from the health care system itself. Doctors and midwives all go on and on about 'breast is best' but when it comes down to it, sometimes real acceptance is lacking. This was highlighted for me earlier this week when my son was in hospital with Rotavirus (yes, he's one of the few breastfed babies who has become really ill in his first year of life!). The first night we were admitted, the nurse asked me what formula he drinks, to which I replied 'he doesn't drink formula'. Before I could even get any more words out, she became all huffy and gave me a lecture about how 'they must be on formula till 12 months of age, so your son will be going onto De-Lact while he's here I'm afraid'. I then said he drinks breastmilk, which saw her change her attitude slightly, but instead of apologising, she then went on to say that I would have to check with the paediatrician whether he could have breastmilk because he might be lactose intolerant due to his illness!! I was almost speechless, but managed to get out that I did not want him to be given formula to which she stormed off to run this past the doctor. Throughout our stay in hospital we continued to encounter shocked/surprised reactions from the nurses when I stated that he was breastfed when asked (well actually he only drinks breastmilk from his cup but that's another long story). We were offered De-Lact formula about 10-15 times each day, sometimes they even made it up for him without asking and I would then explain that he drank breastmilk all over again... anyway this really surprised me, that medical professionals could be so ignorant and unsupportive of something that's widely advertised as being the best option!! Maybe it's just a reflection of the fact that they so rarely see a 10 month old still breastfeeding, I don't know.