Cutting With Tradition (video clip)

[MotherNurture]

This is a clip from a video about ritual circumcision on YouTube. It shows a bris and the mom's reaction at his first diaper change. The wound is fresh and raw and she cries; the mohel tells her "It's pretty." Sad. There's also part of an interview with this and another couple.

Since it's somewhat graphic, I'm posting an 'indirect link'.

To view, highlight and 'copy' the link, 'paste' it into your browser, then hit enter/return.

youtube.com/watch?v=kr9jDLXDGug

It reminds me of of a quote by Hanny Lightfoot-Klein (http://www.lightfoot-klein.com/)...

"Tearing a newborn baby that a woman has carried beneath her heart for nine months from her loving and nurturing breast and inflicting a wound on its tiny, protesting, and immobilized body is an unequivocal act of violence against the mother."

My heart breaks for families that struggle with really, really not wanting to circumcise but feeling pressured by faith, tradition, and family but it also reminds me that each and every one of us have multiple opportunities throughout our lives to change the world.

Ending this practice can start with us...even if we have circumcised partners, even if we've chosen to circumcise sons in the past, even if we don't plan on having (any more) children of our own because knowledge is power. We all have the ability to be activists and educators, both online and within our own circle of friends and family...or, an even wider circle if we have the inclination, time, and energy.

The grief of the mother in this video clip is palpable. Protecting your child from unnecessary pain and harm is a powerful, sacred, primal instinct. No mother should feel obligated to hand her perfect, beautiful, brand new baby over to a stranger to be permanently, surgically altered without medical cause.

Feel free to discuss. :)

Jen

[Noah_and_Elijah]

That's sick I can't watch... :crying:

[Jeclipse]

:( thats wrong

[MotherNurture]

Someone made a powerful statement in another forum, regarding circumcision usurping maternal instincts:

"...once you can get a mother to question her instincts and rob her of one of the most valuable resources for mothering, she can be controlled - No longer thinking for herself."

In the video, the mohel even tells her that the baby needed the circ badly because his foreskin was "really tight"; he LIED to her. Newborn foreskins are supposed to be snug and tightly adherred. She was manipulated and pressured and even the reassurance is a hoax.

This momma, this baby, this story, and this video really tugged at my heartstrings. It's all so tragic.

Jen

[stellarella]

Well that has just had me bawling. Thanks for sharing it however I did find it very disturbing and I am trying to put it out my mind now.

The mothers response is normal I feel. If a mother didn't have that response to her babies pain then I would be a bit worried. Actually I am already worried that mothers allow this to happen to their sons particularly where religious tradition doesnt come into it. I wonder what possesses them to feel nothing as their child screams in agony. I was horrified and the child isnt even mine.

That poor mother.

To hear that baby cry while they were performing it was heart wrenching. I can only imagine what that little baby was feeling....WHY are my protectors letting this happen to me?

What is the father giving it by the way? Some sort of drink???

I urge everyone to watch this especially people who have or want to circumcise their sons.

This must be faced. The reality of it MUST be faced.

[MotherNurture]

What is the father giving it by the way? Some sort of drink???

Wine-soaked guaze, I think; it's the only 'anesthetic' traditionally used during a bris.

Of course, a few drops of wine during the procedure wouldn't even be in the baby's system by the time the cutting is happening and I can't help but wonder what associations a baby might form between the taste and smell of alcohol and what's being done to his penis; I've heard people joke that rates of alcoholism are lower in Jewish men because of this but I haven't seen anything substantiating the theory.


I urge everyone to watch this especially people who have or want to circumcise their sons.

This must be faced. The reality of it MUST be faced.

Amen.

Jen

[MotherNurture]

Another excellent video, this one delving into more research; it's a news report from Canada(?). It contains footage of circumcisions, interviews with doctors, psychologists, and legal experts. Sensitivity loss and medical ethics are discussed. It's quite well done.

video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=1073162

Jen

[stellarella]

Does it have any babies crying as I dont think my nerves could handle it...? :(

[Can I?]

What a powerful clip Jen. Thank you. I just watched the first 2 parts also. Wow.

[ThreePinkFaireez]

:no: I was never for or against cicumcision... never judged anyone either....

now I"m against it for myself personally... still will not judge, but that just made me cry, and feel sick to my stomach......

[ShadyCharacter]

"...once you can get a mother to question her instincts and rob her of one of the most valuable resources for mothering, she can be controlled - No longer thinking for herself."
I love that... its so true in ALL areas of parenting.

I couldn't bring myself to watch the clip, preggy hormones would make it even more upsetting than I would normally find it :gloomy:

[Zada]

I dont even want to watch, the add on tele was bad enuff :(

[MotherNurture]

Does it have any babies crying as I dont think my nerves could handle it...? :(

They show the bris happening, so yes, the baby cries.


:no: I was never for or against cicumcision... never judged anyone either....

now I"m against it for myself personally... still will not judge, but that just made me cry, and feel sick to my stomach......

I'm glad it was thought-provoking, but sorry your tummy's unsettled.

IMO, being against it 'personally' means that I don't desire to be circumcised myself but respect the rights and preferences of others to alter their own bodies as they see fit. Circumcising babies denies personal choice and there's no part of our bodies more intimate and private than our genitals.

Jen

[twolittlegirls]

I use to be for circumcision, I would argue with people about it, my reasons; baby needs to look like Daddy, its cleaner. I now realise that all these things are just stupid. After watching this video, if my Husband and I ever have a little boy, there is absolutely no way in hell I am letting someone near him to perform this procedure (medically necessary is different.)

I'm going to make my husband watch this clip, if there are any others that people can PM the link to that would be good.

Thank you to everybody for opening my eyes up to this.

[Can I?]

That's so great that you are happy to admit that you have changed your mind twolittlegirls - that is really brave :hugs:.

In the earlier clip they went to see the mohel and he was commenting that he didn't use drugs and then made a comment about sugar being medically proven to be pain relieving (not sure if this is actually true though) - so I think they were just using sugar water to give the bub rather than the traditional wine.

[stellarella]

I have to be judgemental about this particular issue. I have to be vocal and extreme because this is an extreme thing that is happening to baby boys.

There is no time for being PC and pussy footing around the issue with all these 'parents rights'....what about the babies rights???

This is happening to babies now! When I think about it I wonder how something so primitive and horrifying can be performed on our children in a so called 'civilised' society.

[Pippi Longstocking]

I use to be for circumcision, I would argue with people about it, my reasons; baby needs to look like Daddy, its cleaner. I now realise that all these things are just stupid. After watching this video, if my Husband and I ever have a little boy, there is absolutely no way in hell I am letting someone near him to perform this procedure (medically necessary is different.)

I'm going to make my husband watch this clip, if there are any others that people can PM the link to that would be good.

Thank you to everybody for opening my eyes up to this.

Wow, yay you! :yelclap: I really admire people that can challenge their own belief systems when presented with new information. It shows such strength of character. :yes:

The clip was very distressing. I cried. As a mum, even the sound of someone else's baby screaming in pain makes me react in that primitive instinctive way that urges us to protect them.

[Pippi Longstocking]

In the earlier clip they went to see the mohel and he was commenting that he didn't use drugs and then made a comment about sugar being medically proven to be pain relieving (not sure if this is actually true though) - so I think they were just using sugar water to give the bub rather than the traditional wine.

I thought he said sweetened wine? Maybe I misheard. :o

[Beany]

I won't watch the video. It's a nightmare I don't need.

I struggled with all of this but I am one of the others: outcast for my decision but with a beautiful, perfect son with all his beautiful, perfect bits intact.

The scorn and derision is there but not for a second have I or will I feel guilty about it. It's his body, not mine. It's his decision, not mine.

[Can I?]

Yeah he did say sweetened wine - but I thought he was saying that it was the sugar in the sweetened wine that was effective so they just used that? Maybe I am just reading something into it that wasn't really there. He wasn't very clear anyway. Either way it didn't seem to be doing much for that poor little babe's pain did it?

[Ashleigh<3]

I was still recovering from the 60 minutes report but this is truly devastating.

[MotherNurture]

http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/blass/

http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/index.php?mode2=detail&origin=ibids_references&therow=363294

Sure, sticking something sweet in a baby's mouth and getting them to suck-the equivalent of a lollypop as anesthesia for surgery-reduces crying. I would argue though just because they're calmer/cry less or have their cries muffled by a pacifier doesn't mean they're necessarily experiencing less pain and we'd be hard-pressed to find an adult willing to undergo genital surgery after downing a cup of koolaid.

Jen

[Lil X-men]

:gloomy: :gloomy: :gloomy: :gloomy:
I wouldn't dream of doing that to my precious boys.
I just cried my whole way through that, and that mother made me cry even more when she broke down too.

[moonblossom]

I can't watch, everybody knows my views on this ############# procedure.

Thanks for sharing, and opening the eyes of those who don't know.

[ShadyCharacter]

I didn't watch the clip, so don't know about THIS situation, but I do know that it is common to give babies WINE before circumcision in some religions... I dunno if it is just me, but I find that pretty damn appalling too :no:

If you are going to cut bits off your newborns genitals, at least give them proper pain relief!

[Aquamarine]

:thumbsdown: I can't bare to watch it.

:gloomy: :gloomy:

[Myztik]

ok this is the first time I have watched any of the video's posted in this section. I was neither for nor against circ but both my boys are intact as I just didn't see the need for it. Now I understand why people are4 so anti circ.. I had to turn the sound off as it was distressing aqnd my 14mnth old walked past and said 'uh oh' when he heard the bub cry..
That poor mother and poor little boy :(

[Blueberry Crumble]

I cant bear to watch it. I know how unkind the prcedure is, and I know it will upset me and make me feel sick.

But good on you for posting it- it seems to have influenced some peoples opinions:)

[MotherNurture]

If this topic interests you and you want to learn more through videos, another resource is an incredible, professionally done Dutch documentary, "Mother, why was I circumcised?":

Part 1:
youtube.com/watch?v=5Jl0qL_3dUg

Part 2:
youtube.com/watch?v=GX169pMdcY8

Part 3:
youtube.com/watch?v=0r7dp_B45Eg

Part 4:
youtube.com/watch?v=iHe901zTc-o

I highly recommend it. The filmmaker's website appears to be down currently, but when it's functioning you can view the entire video there or download the Quicktime file for free.

http://www.macdocman.com/

Jen

[MotherNurture]

See also:

WATCH: Excellent video clip from "Birth As We Know It" (http://www.bubhub.com.au/community/forums/showthread.php?t=49373&highlight=video)

[Ashleigh<3]

The comments made by viewers are worth reading too.

[circangel]

I watched part 3. The circumcision was done in a short time and while the mother was upset she said she would be ok when the war wound healed.

[Gumby]

:no: I still dont see the point...

[MotherNurture]

I watched part 3. The circumcision was done in a short time and while the mother was upset she said she would be ok when the war wound healed.

It would be interesting to see a follow-up, wouldn't it Ron? Some wounds-especially of the heart-take longer to heal than we expect or hope especially when there's a physical scar to remind us. In the case of ritual circumcision, grief can be retriggered for Jewish parents when other baby boys are born into the community and they're asked to attend brisses or even when just the topics of milah or mohels or birth come up.

It's also deeply unsettling to me that this mother describes her baby's freshly circumcised penis as a "war wound". A war wound? She sent him into battle...unarmed? He was subjected to violence? Attacked? Is he a martyr? I think it's a heartwrenching phrase to use, but I respect her grief and I hope she can eventually reconcile her resentment of her husband and transform the experience into positive action.

Jen

[stellarella]

I watched part 3. The circumcision was done in a short time and while the mother was upset she said she would be ok when the war wound healed.


Hmmmm. I don't call that short. I dont think anyone having their penis cut would call it a short time. :detective:

Regardless, its not the amount of time it took to perform the procedure. That baby now has a raw wound. A tiny, newborn baby with a raw wound he does not need to have.

2 mins or 20 mins. Who cares. Pain is pain.

I guess we all have different perspectives on what kind of suffering a baby should endure. Personally I dont think they should endure any unecessary suffering.

[MotherNurture]

Hmmmm. I don't call that short. I dont think anyone having their penis cut would call it a short time...I guess we all have different perspectives on what kind of suffering a baby should endure. Personally I dont think they should endure any unecessary suffering.

Well said.

The procedure time was also reduced because the ritual circumciser didn't 'waste' any time giving that defenseless lil' bub local anesthetic. (Given that most mohels aren't physicians he may not even have been qualified to prescribe or administer it.)

Jen

[♥Heaven Sent♥]

That is horrible,i could NEVER let my baby go through that.

I have protected my baby from this,i made the RIGHT decision.

[Blueberry Crumble]

I dont know how people can DEFEND this act. HOW? WHY??

[Beany]

They defend it (in these sorts of cases) because they honestly believe that they are doing it for the good of the child's immortal soul. A moment's pain now as opposed to an eternity of damnation and so forth.

NB: This isn't me agreeing with the practice or the mindset but rather an explanation of how and why.

[MotherNurture]

I think parents who circumcise defend it for a variety of reasons. Some aren't fully informed or truly believe it's necessary for health and hygiene. Some defend it because their faith---and thousands of years of tradition---demand it, and they can't fathom being brazen enough to question or powerful enough to reject it. Some parents continue to defend circumcision because guilt is a horrible emotion to experience, and admitting you may have made a mistake and that your child was irreversibly harmed as a result is a really difficult thing to do. Others defend it because they benefit financially from the perpetuation and continuation of the practice or because of their own sexual preferences/fetishes.

Jen

[mumx3littlies]

s/.

[mumx3littlies]

I think this procedure shud be made illegal in Australia. Why are boys here allowed to be circumcised yet its illegal to be done to girls? HOw cud anybody even consider doing this to their child unnecessarily?

[NeilR]

They defend it (in these sorts of cases) because they honestly believe that they are doing it for the good of the child's immortal soul. A moment's pain now as opposed to an eternity of damnation and so forth.

NB: This isn't me agreeing with the practice or the mindset but rather an explanation of how and why.


ah...you had best read about this some more.

[NeilR]

You know one of the links I tought was quite good and informative. Some of the others seem to be more focused on shock value and misinformation.

[pookiesossige]

You know one of the links I tought was quite good and informative. Some of the others seem to be more focused on shock value and misinformation.

Circumcision IS shocking. You can't dress it up to be any different- a valuable part of a defenseless little baby's penis is being removed.

[Beany]

ah...you had best read about this some more.

Thank you for the suggestion but I have absolutely no need to read about it having lived through it.

[Chickadee]

This thread is now closed for review and cleaning. It may or may not be re-opened.