The opinions and the damage done

[NeilR]

Some time ago, but not that long ago, a mother of a young boy was a member on this forum. As you all know having your first child is an amazing experience, filled with both joy and fear, happiness and guilt and a great and growing desire to do the best for your child. Sometimes things do not always go as well as planned, but friendships help us along, give us hope and occasionally help us feel that we are not doing this alone.
This mother had struck up a number of friendships on this and other forums, which were very important for her as her young bloke could not get out that much due to some health and developmental issues.
As part of her caring for her child she decided with the support of her partner to have her beloved son circumcised. It was not an easy decision, but reviewing all of the information both parents thought that they had done the right thing.
Her 'mistake' as she put it to me, was to tell some on this forum of her decision. It is unfortunate that she did so as the responses to her and her partners so carefully considered decision was to have words such as 'abuse', 'mutilation', 'how could you', 'my son is perfect' etc etc etc etc. Words and phrases that by themselves would not perhaps attract a moderators ire, but when expressed by a group of people in an uncaring and brutal manner could be seen as very 'Heathers'. Some people she felt were friends sent her PM's that greatly upset her and others refused to reply to her messages...some brave souls did not and she is very thankful for those members, if they are still here they will know that she sends her love.
Perhaps it was because of this mothers mild post natal depression that the effect was so devastating or maybe it was the sense of betrayal that she felt from her 'friends'. Whatever the case she was lucky in that she had support from family and professionals and additional support was at hand. It is sad to say that she will not visit Bub Hub again, nor does she speak of it highly.
However I would ask all of you this: Before you start to express a position of self righteous grandeur - consider your words carefully. You can and people have done damage in the past with callous and careless opinions.
Were this mother suffering from a more serious case of PND (sadly all too common) or without immediate support (again sadly all too common) then the outcome could have been much more significant.
The above information is naturally de-identified and I have the person's permission to post the story.
I did not stumble across bub hub by happenstance and I have no morbid interest in protecting all the free foreskins in the world, but I will occasionally glance as I pass becuase I was asked to do so.

[Jennifer85]

Thats really well said, and altho i dont support circumcision i feel badly for her, i wish her the best and hope that some day she can come back..
i hope she is doing well.

[kristi001]

Well Please send her some Big :hugs: From Me and let her know that where there is alot of people that like to in some form Bully other members with strong or abusing comments.

But there are also Many of us here that Respect and The Choices she made as a Mother even If they wouldnt have Chosen it themselves!

[Mamaduke]

Coming from a Mum that has intact sons...
That is very unfortunate and should not have happened. Sometimes when people are up on their soapboxes professing to be protecting the child, they're forgetting the damage that they're doing to another human being, the parent.
It doesn't just happen in the circumcision section either.

[MotherNurture]

Essentially what Neil has implied here is that sharing the details of the circumcision procedure and discussing why it's unethical and on par with FGM could cause a circumcision-minded mother such guilt that if she also happened to suffer from post partum depression or psychosis she might do god-knows-what-to-her-baby and it would be all our fault. This suggestion seems far more manipulative than anything I've ever read her from the anti-circ side.

There really is no right way to do a wrong thing and if a parent were to experience peer pressure and social distain for their decision to have genital cutting done on a daughter, most of us would agree iit was with passionate conviction, good intention, and justifiable reasoning and we collectively hope that as a result, common sense prevailed and the little girl was spared. Not so with male infants, eh?

The OP of this thread is an excellent example of shooting the messanger without addressing the validity of the message. Personally, I'm not buying into it. I've been involved with this issue far too long to swallow hypothetical blame from the remote possibility that a mother who feels guilty due to something someone said about the topic of circumcision caused her to leave an internet forum which in turn, naturally-very likely quite-possibly-maybe-may-have resulted in her committing suicide or drowning her children in a bathtub.

If the story is true, and a mother who chose circumcision was offended by the opinions of others regarding her decision, upset that even her friends were distressed by what she was subjecting her baby to and left a message board because of it, I think that's unfortunate. However, it doesn't motivate me to dilute the information shared.

Jen

[Ange&Seth]

Ummm, I believe that Neil was merely sharing a story, as so many ppl have done here from the anti-circ side, why should Neil's story be any less 'verifiable'?

Bottom line is this, from a mother who chose to circ, is that there is no medical necessity to perform the procedure. There is no need to guilt anyone into havign the procedure performed on their sons or not, same as there is no need to make anyone feel guilty for their decision TOO have it done.

Respect, guys. It's a fairly simple concept :thumbsup:

[MotherNurture]

Ummm, I believe that Neil was merely sharing a story, as so many ppl have done here from the anti-circ side, why should Neil's story be any less 'verifiable'?

Neil was telling a a very loaded anecdotal story with the message of: If you say something that makes a parent feel guilty, they'll leave, and if they have PPD and lack support you-yes, YOU-might be responsible if they hurt themselves or their children.

His story may be true or it may be completely fabricated; regardless, I was pointing out the premise that we need to be careful not to upset parents with the reality of circumcision or they might leave BubHub and harm their babies is at the very least completley over the top.


Bottom line is this, from a mother who chose to circ, is that there is no medical necessity to perform the procedure. There is no need to guilt anyone into havign the procedure performed on their sons or not, same as there is no need to make anyone feel guilty for their decision TOO have it done.

Guilt isn't someone can impose on us non-justifiably. It's really not. The accusation comes up in these debates all the time: "Quit making me feel guilty!"

The origin of guilt is DOUBT.

In the case of circumcision, doubt happens when you read, hear, or learn something new or concering, something that makes you wonder, "Is this really a good thing? Is it in my son's best interests? Is it going to cause him permanent damage, loss, and harm? Will he resent this later?"

These are all questions that I freely admit I hope parents considering circumcision will ask themselves. I want them to doubt, and I hope that doubt motivates and facilitates further research and ultimately that the baby is spared from unnecessary, amputative sexually damaging surgery.

Doubt becomes guilt when your actions are not aligned with your conscience, and I'm sorry but nobody on an internet messageboard is responsible for that.

If you're truly confident and comfortable with your choice, there will be zero guilt.

Jen

[rynosmum]

I don't believe that anyone should have the right to be questioning the OP's integrity.

Neil, some of the words you mention that may not attract a moderator's ire, actually do on this forum and are removed when they are spotted or reported.

I think Ange and Seth summed it up nicely - respect is what is needed. I would hate to think that anyone ever received anything but support and education for the future from this site.

I choose not to circ - I just simply don't feel it is necessary. It is still however a legal procedure in this country. Whilst it is less popular than it previously was, it is still relatively common. None of these people do it to harm their children and it's sad that they are often made to feel that way.

[Pippi Longstocking]

I agree wholeheartedly with MN (of course!)

I cannot and will not ever accept responsibility for someone else's feelings of guilt. It's just not something I can cause. If a mother feels guilty, I believe she ought to really examine that and I bet she will find, as MN says, an element of doubt. Guilt comes from within, it cannot be imposed on people.

It is unfortunate that a parent felt alienated because of her decision to circumcise. However, that doesn't mean that the more vocal anti circ bubhubbers are responsible and ought to shut up about it. It means that the mum had unresolved issues relating to having her son circumcised and she needs to work through them.

Sometimes I shout at my kids. I know it is wrong and I shouldn't do it. If someone started a thread on bubhub pointing out how harmful shouting at children is, damn right I'd feel defensive and guilty. But that is because I know I am doing the wrong thing by my kids.

[RaryGirl]

Respect, guys. It's a fairly simple concept :thumbsup:

I agree! No one should be attacked for voicing their parenting choices, which so very often happens on this forum .... circum vs non-circum, breast vs bottle, cloth vs disposable.

Everyone is different and we make our parenting choices to suit our individual children .... please respect others choices and don't attack them for the choices they have made.

We are all parents and we are all working at raising our children in the best possible way.

[Sarieslittlemen]

Thanks Neil. I also posted on under another SN and was attacked with our decicsion to circ our sons, so I know what your friend went through. I guess the difference is that we were quite happy with our choice and even though I was quite rattled and hurt by some comments I recieved I knew that we do the best we can for our boys and while people will always have an opinion on how you raise your children it really has nothing to do with them.
But when it comes down to it if your are anti circ you will never understand why people choose to circ and that's fine, you are entitled to your opinion, as are we.

[Mummy2Noah]

:hugs: :hugs: I Hope she is okey!! And I hope she knows that there are lots of mothers on bubhub that agrees with her decision its just were to scared to voice our opinions because we get attacked!!! But please come back to the Hub Pweeeeesssssee!!!

[Jeclipse]

Everyone on here says that they should respect everyones different parenting choices

but we should also respect everyone elses different opinions.. just because their opinion isnt the same as ur's doesnt mean they are in the wrong..

and If u feel guilty about someone has said on a circ thread or any other thread ...then its guilt from within urself..

as no one can force guilt upon u....
and no one should be blamed for this

[forbetoel]

I so agree with you Neil, some people get so nasty and can have so much venom towards the choice of another mother, that they do not even know. It surprises me how often someone pays someone out for their decision, but then in another thread they are in the same boat in regards to another parenting decision. I personally am anti-circ, but I will not judge one mother for one decision made.
A mother may be happy with her choice until she gets 25 people having a go at her, so it is not always HER personal guilt regarding her decision, it is the fact that she was not ready for a negative onslaught regarding the decision she made for the child she loves and adores.
Some people judge to make themselves feel better.

[Noah_and_Elijah]

I think that it's very sad and unfortunate that your friend felt that she had to leave Bubhub because of comments that she received from people. Very sad indeed.

I do however agree with some of the other ladies when they say that guilt comes from within and it cannot be forced upon someone.

If she feels 100% comfortable with the decision that she made then there is no reason for her to feel guilty. If however she is not completely at ease with it then that is something that she needs to work through and I hope that she can find that help.

I don't think that any of the non-circ bubhubbers should be blamed for your friends feelings though. Not at all. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and although some have interesting ways of voicing theirs, they are entitled to it all the same.

[Jeclipse]

I so agree with you Neil, some people get so nasty and can have so much venom towards the choice of another mother, that they do not even know. It surprises me how often someone pays someone out for their decision, but then in another thread they are in the same boat in regards to another parenting decision. I personally am anti-circ, but I will not judge one mother for one decision made.
A other may be happy with her choice until she gets 25 people having a go at her, so it is not always HER personal guilt regarding her decision, it is the fact that she was not ready for a negative onslaught regarding the decision she made for the child she loves and adores.
Some people judge to make themselves feel better.

Im sorry but I disagree with u...
No one on here purposely judges other mothers to make them feel bad.. and in saying that u are probably upsetign someone reading this without knowing...

NO ONE... pays out on others decisions.. they are just questioned as some people want to know the reasoning behind a decision made

[forbetoel]

Jeclipse, even when someone gives their reasonings for a decision, the attacking still goes on, people get caught up with other people agreeing with them, and just keep going. I lot of circ threads start up with the OP telling exactly why they made their decision, and it makes no difference, why can't people just say, that it is not a decision they would ever make, and leave it at that. Someone people are very insecure and may have no friends IRL, and take these negative opinions that don't let up really badly. I just don't think it hurts to remember that there is a real human being behind each user name.

[SalTheGal]

Honestly, this makes me so angry.

MN, can't you just step down from your soap box for one minute and see that there are REAL people with REAL feelings behind these computer screens.

And I'm sorry but who are you to judge the validity of the OP?

Yes you and others are entitiled to voice your opinions, and yes you are entitled to post your reasons.

But NO you have no right to belittle someone for their choices....PND or any other form of depression can wreak havoc on a persons emotions and strength to cope with situations that many others would be able to turn a blind eye too, I know I have been there- have you?

Besides which- you tell me when and in what circumstances you would find Pro circers pushing their opinions onto others? I think you will find that in 99% of cases here on bubhub we offer polite advice and reasoning behind our choices, and only ever when ASKED, but never EVER try to impose or opinions on others in a demeaning and forceful way.

Neil, please offer MY support to the girl in question, it is heartbreaking that she should suffer in this way for doing what she tinks is best for her child. :hugs:

That is ALL I have to say on the discussion!

[RaryGirl]

NO ONE... pays out on others decisions.. they are just questioned as some people want to know the reasoning behind a decision made

You need to look at the words that are used ..... when words like mutilation are used it is very attacking. While I am very comfortable with the choice I have made for my son there is no way I would accuse someone of mutilating their child for doing it or tell them that their child is unhygeinic for not.

So while I am happy to read other peoples opinions and a healthy debate is great .... I don't agree with the personal attacks on people for their parenting choices and it goes on far too often on this (and other) forums.

Thank you Neil for sharing your story and it is very sad that your friend had to leave. I hope she is feeling alot better now.

[Sarieslittlemen]

Im sorry but I disagree with u...
No one on here purposely judges other mothers to make them feel bad.. and in saying that u are probably upsetign someone reading this without knowing...

NO ONE... pays out on others decisions.. they are just questioned as some people want to know the reasoning behind a decision made
Unfortunately this is not the case. When I originally joined a couple of years ago I was attacked by several people who were later banned. Things that they said more in pm's than on open threads were personal attacks meant to harm and threaten.
Just because it's not seen doesn't mean it doesn't happen, sad as it is.

[SalTheGal]

Im sorry but I disagree with u...
No one on here purposely judges other mothers to make them feel bad.. and in saying that u are probably upsetign someone reading this without knowing...

NO ONE... pays out on others decisions.. they are just questioned as some people want to know the reasoning behind a decision made

Um Yes actually they do, and they make it very clear!!!

[Noah_and_Elijah]

I think what Jeclipse means to say is that the majority of people here on Bubhub don't go out of their way to personally attack or belittle another member for their parenting choices, whether they agree with them or not. Some members are more direct than others, yes, but that doesn't mean that they are attacking them.

I know that if your not happy with a post then you have the option of reporting it or blocking the member.

[forbetoel]

Unfortunately this is not the case. When I originally joined a couple of years ago I was attacked by several people who were later banned. Things that they said more in pm's than on open threads were personal attacks meant to harm and threaten.
Just because it's not seen doesn't mean it doesn't happen, sad as it is.

very true, i have had a nasty PM about a thread on vacuming...:confused: So some people don't even mind the topic.

[Sarieslittlemen]

very true, i have had a nasty PM about a thread on vacuming...:confused:

Wow how bad are you vacuming;)

[NeilR]

I will pass on the support when I see her again. I feel that the response to this thread is very instructive as to the character and perhaps empathy of some, though in some cases unfortunately predictably so.
FWIW the mother is not a 'friend' in the sense that I am the Speech Pathologist and Case Manager for her child...hence the de-identification, though that was also at her request.
I will actually specifically adress one of MN's points. I was not hinting at a suicide or worse in my original post, but instead was suggesting a serious depressive episode. The impact of such has far reaching issues for any mother WRT bonding, attachement and the effects can be subtle and long lasting on both the mother and child and whole family.

[Milliner]

very true, i have had a nasty PM about a thread on vacuming...:confused: So some people don't even mind the topic.

:laughing: Vacuming??? Someone must have been passionate about their vacume. :confused: :eek:

[secondtimearound2]

This sounds so much like me a few months back Neil.

Whilst everyone is entitled to an opinion justifying an insult as an opinion is wrong. There is many ways of getting your point across without insulting others!! I have an opinion on uncirc penises............but I will not post cause my opinion would insult those with intact penises and Mothers of intact Boys. I would never post something that would insult or upset others. This is not what BubHub is about. BubHub is about supporting each other and giving options and advise when asked. It is a place to chat and make new friends. Not somewhere to insult and judge other parents for thier choices.

Neil please sent some :hugs: to your client and tell her she is not alone.

[draught]

The points made by Neil are valid in that we should all respect the points of view of others expressed on the forum. There are a number of people on this forum who regularly forget that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Before this turns into more of a slanging match the thread will be closed. Thank you to those who posted in a positive and constructive fashion.