Sleep Fighter/Hysterical Screamer

[MrsMiggins]

My beautiful 4-month old baby girl has always been a great sleeper... once she's asleep that is! The problem though, has always been actually getting her to sleep.

She has always fought it fiercely right from day dot. She HATED being wrapped (this would cause her to work up to hysterics until she worked herself free and she always kicks the covers off as soon as they are placed over her regardless of how deeply asleep she is!), and will very rarely just drift off to sleep. I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of times she's done it! Then when I try to replicate the environment in which it has happened, it never works a second time round.

During the day, she tends to only nap. Here & there she will have a big sleep, but it doesn't happen all that often. She does put on a production during the day even just for a 10 minute nap, but it's not usually as bad as at night. Night time though can be downright traumatic! On a good night, I only have to put up with 10-20 mins of hysterical screaming, and thrashing around (this is all while I'm holding her mind you!) but on a bad night (like last night for instance) it could be anything up to 3 or 4 hours!

When she's having a really hard time falling asleep, she will go through several stages of nearly being asleep; being relatively calm & having her eyes closed, but will start up again either for no apparent reason, or because I've tried to place her in her cot.

I've tried the controlled comforting technique - patting her off to sleep in her cot, but she just ends up so worked up that it ends up taking even longer to put her to sleep.

At the moment I have to walk around (no standing still & definitley no sitting!) rocking & patting her off to sleep. The sound of my voice only makes her want to wake up, so the best I can do is little murmurs & shhhh-ing.

She won't feed to sleep and while a calming bath worked for a while, it doesn't seem to work any longer.

Last night we ended up taking her for a drive in the car, which worked, but I can't be doing that every night just to get her to sleep!

It's worth mentioning that a) when she goes down for the night, she goes down for the night! Usually around 12 hours+; and b) She was doing a lot better a from about 2.5 months and has only just started acting up badly again in the last week or so. She will be 4 months on 11 Feb.

It's driving me nutty, and my poor DH as at his wits end! Any suggestions? :confused:

[pthalokitty]

hi-
we had the same problem- we tried tresillian, control crying etc...nothing worked except us rocking him to sleep on our shoulder, making sure he was sound asleep (ie: sleeping at least 20 minutes and past rem phase), and then putting him in the cot. When he got older it didn't take so long, but early on if we put him down too soon he'd wake up and it would take twice as long to get him down again. When we had him in the portacot bassinette which we could rock he would sleep that way too...sounds like yours is the same- likes motion. I would walk him in the pram for up to 3 hours as an alternative for day naps (I was grateful for the exercise except in summer) or in the car. We weren't able to get him to sleep by patting alone until after one (we were still rocking him in our arms to sleep! but he just got too heavy...). He went through phases of going to sleep easily and then becoming fussy again- sorry i can't give you a brilliant "we did this and he could self settle"- some babies really need more than others in this department. It was tough and very hands on but we got through it and he's now a very happy, independent child (though we still lie down next to him as he's going to sleep). We were doing attachment parenting, and felt we wanted to parent in a way that had no battles. We got sick of it at times...it can be a long day parenting, but turned our thinking around to simply enjoy the fact he wanted to be with us and enjoyed that intimate time together. If you guys aren't coping, I would call tresillian and try out their week stay program- it may or may not work depending on your child. Mine was too stubborn to change and so we never got to that magic self settle goal. However, we have a child who likes going to sleep, and will now sometimes happily go off to bed for a sleep when he's tired by himself. Good luck!
em, mum to 2.5 y.o. cy xxoo

[MrsMiggins]

Thanks em! It's nice to know there are other people that have gone through the same thing. I guess you always know your baby isn't the only one, but sometimes after 3 hours of screaming it may seem like it!!

Tresillian would be something I would definitely look at if this continues. Is it quite expensive though?

Another thing - Claire hates being in her pram! When we go out shopping, she might sit there happily for anything up to about half an hour (usually more like a few minutes!) and then I end up carrying her and pushing the pram! This whole carrying around thing is just killing my back! We do have a Baby Bjorn, which she does love & will sometimes nod off while being carried in that, but we live in a very hot, humid place and are having a particularly hot & humid summer, so it's not always practical.

We also have one of those battery-operated swings. She doesn't like that either! There are only 2 places I can put her while she's awake & she's happy to stay there and they are the car seat & her vibrating rocker/bouncer (MAN! I love that thing!!!!:p )

I can, in my calmer moments, appreciate the fact that my baby loves being close to me, but it's a little hard to see the brighter side when you are utterly exhausted & frustrated! :rolleyes:

I do have to say that for the most part, she is a really lovely, happy little baby! Full of smiles & giggles - it's just going to sleep that is the problem!

[mylittletwins]

Hi Fiona,

I am wondering if my twin boys have the same genes as your daughter. My twins hate being put down unless they have slept in my or DH arms. They never liked being wrapped and believe it or not hate sleeping on there backs, thats where the main problem is. They have been sleeping on their tummies since 5 weeks old, because they would go hysterical everytime we would put them down to sleep,i know its not the right thing to do by SIDS standards but there is nothing soft covering their faces and they have the strength to lift themselves up to turn their heads.Since then its not as hysterical it seems as though they feel secure sleeping on there tummies. This dosent mean the problem isnt completely solved what it means that its not as bad, but like your DD they will stay in the pram for no more than 1/2 hour, mind you they used to love the pram, i am trying to get them back into it bit by bit. They have also gotten into the habit of being soothed when walking them around, well that isnt so easy when you are carrying 2 of them. And yes the Bjorn is a gem.

I am hoping we can work together in finding a better solution as its just not right, i can only hope in time they will grow out of it

[thirdtimeround]

Our ds2 who is now nine months went through a similiar phase when he was nearly four months and I am sorry to say that it has only just started to settle down now. I was reading that seperation anxiety can start as early as four months and am wondering whether this was the cause of the problem with our son. Seth did the same thing, wouldnt be controlled comforted. It was suggested to me to roll him on his side away from me to settle - he was so strong that he would just push against me arching his back and thrashing. I had a day stay with a community nurse at 6 months because I couldnt take it anymore and he started to respond and then - whammo - back to the old ways.:(

I think he is just wired differently. He learnt to crawl at 6months was pulling himself up at the side of the cot at 5 1/2 months and cruising by 7. He is a fussy eater and even to bf was difficult. Cant give you any suggestions that worked for me however when she does reach 6 months and your at wits end stick with the controlled comforting, it might take months but it has finally worked for me.

Even when I keep my routine exactly the same he never reacts in the same way.:confused: If you do find a solution let me know!!!

[MrsMiggins]

You poor thing!! I really feel for you! I have twin nephews and they were enough of a handful for my poor SIL and they were never fussy like my bub!!

Sometimes I think when she's really fussy - imagine if I'd had twins (I always wanted twins!)

Claire is not happy on her tummy. I can put her on her tummy for a minute or so on her playmat but then she gets a bit upset.

How do you manage when they won't stay in their pram if you are out on your own??

[MrsMiggins]

Hi Tobie!

You know, when I tried the controlled comforting thing with Claire on her side, she did exactly the same thing! Arched her back and fought me until she rolled back over onto her back. I read though that the reason they suggest you have them on their side facing away from you is to avoid eye contact, so I tried the same techniques but kept my head down & didn't look at her. I had somewhat better luck doing it this way, but it still didn't work as a sleep solution for us.

I think my bub is also 'wired differently'! She has been able to bear her own weight on her legs from only a few weeks old and now at 4 months, can pull herself up to standing from lying on her back by holding my hands (she can't do it on her own yet.) She has been doing this for about a month. Until the last couple of days she has shown no interest in starting to crawl though. (I know it's early!) The last couple of days during our few minutes a day of tummy time she has started trying to push forward. I had to quit BF fairly early on as she would latch properly, then pull right back so that she wasn't on properly & this was the ONLY way she'd feed! Caused me all sorts of pain & problems! Babies are also supposed to be fascinated by familiar faces but my bub only wants to look around everywhere! If you try to move your face in front of hers to make her look at you, she'll go out of her way to try & look around you! Funny little things, aren't they?!

[pthalokitty]

Hi fiona-
it is really tough, and it can get you down, so I know where you are at, especially when exhausted beyond belief, but slowly it will get better. Rest when you can, stick to the time frame they need to get them into the cot without rewaking them- going too long can do the same thing as too little from memory (if yours is like mine it is a minimum of 20-25 mins cradling before you can put them down, which worked its way to 10 mins closer to the 1 year mark) .The thing we thought was find out what he likes, stick to it while it works, but be open to change cause they do change after a month or two into a new pattern. I read a book by (John?) Sears called "The Baby Book"- it's fairly hardcore attachment parenting style, but we adapted what we agreed with and disagreed with the rest. It discusses this whole issue of wearing and how there are children who simply need more from us, than others who will happily accept whatever you dish up....and that wearing your child in a sling and co-sleeping etc is beneficial in the long term regardless.
I wore my son in the bjorn for day naps for at least the first 6 months...killed my back towards the end too. We didn't have a rocking bouncer though I would have killed for one. I'm sure its just some kids are really attached and still remember being carried in the womb on some level, and don't want to let go!
Tresillian was around $250 for the week in 2003- it may be done based on income, you'd have to call them to check. Some mothers had it work a dream. All the mums with kids like me that needed to be held/carried a lot found it didn't work. And my son was an early development kid too- running across the park 11 months, rolling at 4, crawling at 5...once he started he didn't stop.
We always kept testing whether he would accept the cot and patting- always with our fingers crossed. Would recommend trying that once in a while- sometimes they just decide its ok (which is what happened with us) and yours may be ok sooner rather than later. We called the screaming phase (5-9pm without fail) the yips. That will get better too, once the reflux/sore tummy/whatever starts getting better. Mine had food intolerances from my milk initially, and then from solids, so keep that in mind with the crying. But also, when they're that small, the crying seems to be a way for them to release the overload of information they get in the day. From memory, that seemed to calm down after the 6 mth mark?! If you're going out a lot and she's getting overwhelmed, maybe have a few quiet days at home? Or is this just constant no matter what? You're so putting me back in that time! We felt like it was forever, but then you wake up and they're talking and sleeping through....hang in there mate!
em xxoo

[MrsMiggins]

Thanks em! That is such really great advice!

Well tonight I bathed her, fed her and she pretty much just nodded straight off to sleep with hardly a whimper! I couldn't believe my luck!! So I put her in her cot and 10 mins later she was screaming. ~sigh!~ Oh well!

So I walked around with her for about an hour and a half & she was really tired that whole time but just grizzled (no screaming thank god!) and when she was very sleepy I put her into her cot again. She thrashed around & grizzled for a while but I just patted her tummy & she settled down.

She was still awake, but sleepy, so I left the room. When she started yelling (not crying) I left it for a while and then went back in there. She was lying there awake sucking her thumb. I didn't pick her up, but just stroked her cheek & forehead. Then I gave her her dummy & put her mobile on & went out again.

The next time she started yelling, I went back in & she'd taken the dummy out of her mouth & still had it in her hand but couldn't work out how to get it back in her mouth, so I put it back in & went out again. This happened a couple of times. The last time was about 5 mins ago & I haven't heard a peep so fingers crossed!!!!

[Baby Girl]

I think my bub is also 'wired differently'! She has been able to bear her own weight on her legs from only a few weeks old and now at 4 months, can pull herself up to standing from lying on her back by holding my hands (she can't do it on her own yet.) She has been doing this for about a month. Until the last couple of days she has shown no interest in starting to crawl though. (I know it's early!) The last couple of days during our few minutes a day of tummy time she has started trying to push forward. I had to quit BF fairly early on as she would latch properly, then pull right back so that she wasn't on properly & this was the ONLY way she'd feed! Caused me all sorts of pain & problems! Babies are also supposed to be fascinated by familiar faces but my bub only wants to look around everywhere! If you try to move your face in front of hers to make her look at you, she'll go out of her way to try & look around you! Funny little things, aren't they?!
OMG you just explained my DD2 at that age exactly (Except for bf) :eek:

Good luck with getting her sleep a little easier. DD2 never had an issue but DD1 was a horror. I spent many hours walking the halls and patting her tummy/back, singing lullabies etc. All the sugestions you have gotten are great. Good Luck.

[pthalokitty]

keep trying fiona, you'll get there!
the patting sounds promising- especially if she accepts you are still "there" with the patting despite not holding her...we also found around the 6 mth mark to stick to a routine for naps etc.- that went from 3 naps per day to now just one, but he still naps! (Unlike other mums I know who didn't ever have a routine and their kids dropped their naps). It just all takes a while...
she sounds like a little personality already!
em xxoo
p.s. watch put for the dummy! If that is a comfort thing, they can often wake up when it falls out of their mouths, over and over again....

[Kaileysmum]

Oh my God my dd is 4 months old and doing the same thing, Id love to be able to put her down annd for her to just go to sleep. But everything Ive done doesnt work. She gets so angry when she needs to sleep. I hold her walking aroound bouncing and she flexes out hard and grunts (angry grunts). It takes about 20mins to get her to sleep, then she wakes 30mins later. Its driving me nuts!!!! So I need the help too!

[pthalokitty]

when mine was under 6 mths, he would do that too- you'd spend 20 mins-40mins to get him asleep and down, then he'd only sleep 30-40 mins. 40 mins apparently is a normal sleep cycle- over time they stop waking up when they get to the end of it and go back to sleep...it just will take them a little while. Try going in around the time they wake and stay out of sight but pat them again gently- that helped mine to go back to sleep. As they get older they sleep longer- I promise!

[MrsMiggins]

Hi!!!

Well I'm back to report some success!!!

Let me tell you what I've been doing. Maybe you could try something similar ewells to see if it also works for you?

Once Claire is starting to get really sleepy, instead of walking around patting & rocking her, I've been placing her in her cot with her dummy in (she's only just started to take a dummy since she's started sucking her thumb. She's never really had a great deal of interest in it before now) and her mobile playing gently. I will sit beside the cot patting her, stroking her cheek & forehead, or just with my hand lying gently on her tummy. When she starts to calm down & drift off (which surprisingly only takes a few minutes usually!) I leave her room.

Usually, she'll start to cry a bit within a few minutes & I go back in. If she's really upset, I'll pick her up, give her a cuddle & comfort her until we're back to where we were the first time I put her down. Then I put her back in her cot with her dummy & her mobile still on. This time when I put her down, it takes even less time to get her nearly asleep (ie: calm, still & eyes closed).

I will then go straight back in each time she fusses, although each time I go back in, she is more & more asleep & it takes hardly any time or effort to resettle her. I usually only need to pat or stroke or replace the dummy. The last couple of days & nights I have been doing this, she has been in a deep sleep within half an hour - BLISS!!!!

[mylittletwins]

Hi Fiona,


I just have to pick the both of them up when they both start getting hysterical and walk them around until they have calmed down a bit. Once one has calmed down i will put him down and still hold the other twin till he calms down. When the other twin starts up i try and sooth him in his cot.

Another way of explaining it is i just wing it.

[Kamaikia]

tresillian - whats this. I haven't stopped and read all the replies to this thread as I don't have time. But is it possible that you are not seeing her tired signs and letting her get overtired and cranky.
Sorry I'm not much help - thankfully I never had this problem but I fully sympathise with tired mums :)

[MrsMiggins]

Tresillian is a support organisation that helps mums with bubs. Basically if your bub is crying at 3 in the morning & you don't know why, you call them & they help you out. They also have things like sleep clinics & such for common issues. Apparently very, very good.

Claire is pretty clear-cut when she's getting sleepy. One second she'll be all happy, laughing & playing & the next you can totally tell she's zonked! She also has a pretty good routine, so I know when to expect her cues. Sometimes she does get overtired & cranky, like when we are out & it's not possible for me to go somewhere quiet to let her go to sleep, or there's too much stimuli (she's never ever been good at sleeping around noise etc. Not from anything I've done, like keeping her away from noise when she needs to sleep, she's just always been that way) but I try to avoid these situations as much as possible because once she's "past-the-point" as we call it, then we're in BIG trouble!

[pthalokitty]

fiona-
what you described as your new routine is exactly what the tresillian day visit nurse did with my son (only he didn't accept it)- brilliant news its all going well!

[MrsMiggins]

Update!

Last night Claire fell asleep having her bedtime bottle and did not stir! WOO-HOO!!!!!!

(although I am not so naiive to think that this will now be the norm, it is nice to have an easy night now & again!)

:D :D :D

[Kaileysmum]

Hi Fiona_t
I tryed what you said you did with your bub, seemed to work. (she was reaally exausted though. It seems our bubs are very similar, as I gather from this thread and the other thread in development, and they are only a few days apart. PM me if you want to chat about your bub and mine, maybe we could help each other seeming they are so similar in development and sleeping issues.

[MrsMiggins]

Oh that's great ewells!!! I'm glad it seems to work for your bub too!! I just can't believe how much easier it all is now. And so soon after starting it too!

There is one thing I always bear in mind when trying to introduce a routine with Claire - a friend of mine once told me that she read somewhere that it takes several months for adults to form a habit, whereas for babies & young children it only takes 3 days! 3 days & you will form a habit. This means that if you are having trouble with sleep patterns, feeding, behaviour - whatever, then you only need to be consistent for 3 days and no matter how difficult those 3 days are, then by the end of it, you'll have broken the old pattern & developed a new habit. (On the flip-side it also means that you have to be extremely careful doing something one way just because it's easier, if you don't want to develop a habit!)

She told me that she tried this with her twins when one wouldn't eat, when another wouldn't stay in his bed, when trying to wean them off their dummies and every single time it worked! By the 3rd day, any problem was completely resolved with no more tears or tantrums!

It has seemed to work for Claire each time I've tried it! It's now been 3 days since I started the new sleep routine & she pretty much has it down-pat now! I just put her down for a nap this afternoon because she was starting to get tired - put her in her cot with her dummy & the mobile on and there was not a single tear of protest!! She was lying there awake, but content for a while & then just quietly drifted off to sleep! I can't believe the difference it has made since the beginning of the week!

Of course, I'm sure we'll have incidents here & there and that we may have to change our routine as she grows & gets older, but at least we seem to be past that first hurdle!

We should definitely keep in touch ewells! It will be interesting to see if our girls remain in sync. PM me any time! I'd be happy to hear from you & I'll do the same!

[MrsMiggins]

Just another little update....

Claire is now a wonderful little sleeper!! I simply cannot believe the turnaround in only a few short days!

All I need to do now is watch for when she first shows signs of getting sleepy, then I put her in her cot, kiss her goodnight & leave the room! She now doesn't even need her dummy or her mobile on!

Today each time we did this, she was asleep within a couple of minutes at the most.

If someone had told me a week ago that by today it would be this easy I'd never have believed them!

If anyone else is having similar sleep issues, I highly recommend at least giving this a go - what have you got to lose?! Our house is a totally different place now!! All 3 of us are happy & well-rested! :D

ewells, how are you going with this method?

[Shajbm]

I've just finished reading the posts and I'm glad to hear that progress has been and is being made.

My DS is almost 3 and up until he was about 18 months he was always cuddled till he was asleep and then he would be placed into bed, and he slept throught the night most nights. I've never been a fan of controlled crying (I know it works for some, but not for others), and I was happy for him to be nursed to sleep.

At about the 18 month mark he wasn't interested anymore, but lately he's been wanting it more, so I cuddle him...

I do sympathise with all you mums who are exhausted, but kids will be kids and even though they sleep through now, there are times when they wont.

My SIL taught me to do whatever gets you through the day, and those words have kept me sane (especially at 4.30am).

Good luck ladies and I look forward to reading more progress reports.

[Kaileysmum]

Hey Fiona_t

Yeah your method has worked great kailey has been going off to sleep by herself, with no soothing or angry tantrums. So happy, she is just so much better. Thanks for your advise

[MrsMiggins]

ewells, that is so great to hear!! I thought it had a good chance seeing how your bub & mine seem to be so similar!:D

We had a bit of a lapse tonight, but that was only because we had to go to Brissie today for a baby shower & it was a long drive there & back, so she was totally out of her routine, both time-wise & bedtime routine wise. I'm hoping we can get back into it tomorrow night without any problems. I'm sure it'll all be fine!